I don't understand how there still aren't any real safety barriers and more distance from fans and people to the race track.... incredible, really! It's like formula 1 in the 50s....
In my opinion, Groenewegen obviously didn’t try to cause injury to anyone intentionally. But it’s dishonest to act as if his line deviation was “natural” or “unintentional.” Is it debatable? Yeah sure. But speaking as if it wasn’t intentional in a self-evident manner is a bit much
I just listened 9mins into it and its shocking how much they try to victimize Dylan. He behaved recklessly and took a gamble which went horribly wrong. But he created the situation. And if sprinters can't control their line to some extend (Dylan moved half the roads width!) and people say its the nature of the sport. Than maybe you should really think about your sport. Now ofc some other parties helped to create this situation. UCI not enforcing their line deviation rule as much as needed and the organizers with the barriers and the downhill sprint. But in the end Dylans behaviour initiated it all. And I expect every pro rider to understand what can happend if I put a fellow rider in a vulnerable position at 80kph right at the barriers.
agreed. He didn't go out to 'intentionally hurt someone' (obviously...) but his deliberate actions directly caused the crash. He saw Jakobsen coming and moved to block him, putting Jakobsen into the barriers. How difficult is that to understand?
14:24 I personally don’t like seeing them crash! Love breakaways, solo mountain finishes maybe a small group sprints. Don’t like the field sprints. They don’t do anything for me personally. UCI needs to be held accountable for this. There needs to be a retired pro preferably a sprinter (for sprint stages) that inspects the course and specifically the finish with the authority to cancel or alter the stage if need be.
Well, that finish itself is known for speeds, but was was there 30 years ago with speeds close to 65kmh has changed now to 90kmh! It's an interesting point if you can actually control your light bike with those speeds by being out of the saddle and pushing hard. It just is what it is, if finish is that fast - there can be accidents and the only thing what can be done is to create better infrastructure around, e.g. having soft tall walls on a finishes where field sprint is going to happen?
He knew what he was doing. He was trying to intimidate Jakobsen so he would back off. He probably didn't realize the terrible consequences of his squeezing Jakobsen against the barriers. Time to make fast sprint finishes safer by using visual aids like lane markers, maybe GPS devices to warn of excessive drift, safer barriers and extended bans against those who resort to dirty tactics in the event of a crash. It's gotten crazy.
Ski racing they have 4' x 8' pads 8" thick on all the corners and Finnish area! You don't notice them because they're made to put banners over them! Have seen many crashes at 90k where the skier gets up and walks away!
Having been in a bike crash going 30mph, I can only imagine what the the addition of a metal barrier can do. I’ve always wondered, given the speeds and basically no protection, those barriers aren’t padded.
I’m not sure padding is necessarily the answer. In a head on situation having something to absorb the energy is definitely the answer but in situations where impact occurs at a wide angle, you don’t generally want to arrest the energy at the point of impact. Instead it’s preferable to allow the casualty to lose the energy over the longest amount of time reducing the max force exerted on the body which is wha causes the most damage. So if padding were to work I’d suggest we’d only be talking a thin padding to allow this sliding mechanism still. So in reality it wouldn’t be providing much in the way of safety and in most situations not overly affecting the outcome of injuries. I think at the least barriers shouldn’t be able to fly up in the air and cause more devastation!
Blocking or closing doors is an age-old practice. No one can tell me that moving into oncoming traffic was innocent or purely unintentional... at best he can claim that he was hoping his competitors would slam on their brakes, get trapped or move out of the way and take a longer line to the finish. He was counting on them not risking a crash and therefore opting out for the previously mentioned options and losing their chance at victory.
Sir. Brad made a great point with the sprint lanes. That seems like it would be really great. Also, higher barriers with some kind of protective cover on the top might be helpful. It should be made harder to go over the top of the barrier.
Seems like a good idea, but unworkable. What do you do if you are sitting 3rd on a wheel and move right or left to come around, and end up putting a rider behind you into the barriers. This happens at the front and further back in the field all the time. Riders accept the risks. Sprinters know exactly what the risks are when they go thru, and they can see the gap closing, but choose not to check up. Sad, but it is the sprint mentality that puts them in the situation. Young men will always take chances, they know the risks and choose to engage. I do not see a good solution. But it's definitely worth talking about, but not threatening jail time. Fines yes, suspensions yes. But that's as far as I would take it.
I don't get why they use those city barriers and not some proper plastic barriers or something used for car racing. I mean it wouldn't cost much if it's only for finish.
Three things to Consider. First a lane or line on each side of the finish that you may not cross / deviate from your line. You won’t stop all the pushing, but pushing riders into the barriers is the critical element that needs to be stopped. Second, the final arch needs foam or some protection. Lastly Jakobsen lost his helmet BEFORE he hit the ground. This needs to be better understood and addressed. Wearing a helmet is critical but if it comes off in a high G crash, wearing a helmet is not enough !
Thé barrière where miss placed ... and was not a protection .... a solution to limit the race width ... to 10Metre if the road is 15 meter large .... if you go over the line you would be dq and if you crash you don’t hit the barrière straight away ...
From the viewpoint of impartial observer, road markings, barrier or road choices rules,... may be an additional help but the key is to create a mindset in the rider such that he/she is extremely unlikely to intuitively cause a crash. In humans the strongest way to do so is to know that there will inevitably be extreme consequences. Rule must also be simple and extremely clear. I would propose that if a rider who caused the crash by action against the existing rules (no matter the vague "intent") must suffer lifetime ban in cycling if anyone who is injured requires more than a 1 day of hospital stay or anyone suffers permanent disability. Yes ,harsh but the only certain way to dramatically increase safety by changing human mindset of participants.
Ppl are too stupid and quick to point finger at anything they don't like. I've seen countless of footage with sprint finishes similar as this one and most of them end with someone crashing between the barriers of with other cyclists.
Groenewegen's deviation was clearly intentional, as he was repeatedly looking backwards, under his legs, and as Jakobsen went to overtake, he moved to the right to block it, and kept moving. It clearly wasn't just a random 'deviation'. This intentional drifting has been happening for a while and it needs to stop. The lady on the video talks about post-accident 'emotions' but Groenewegen's actions caused this crash, in my view, and how he feels about it afterwards isn't the point at all. You can talk about crap barriers but whatever was there, it was always going to be a big crash. You need something on the road, as Wiggins says, or maybe some kind of 'no go' or 'no cross' zones next to the barriers.
Agree. This went from unfortunate when he didnt hold hes line, to illegal when he kept cutting him off towards the barrier to criminal when at 80+ km/h he stuck out hes elbow and PUSHED another human being towards a wall. I feel sorry for him. I get it. The adrenaline, the split second decision, etc. But this is like F1 or LeMans from the 60s... You cant do that in motorsports these days and the UCI should send a clear message that you cant do that in cycling either.
The riders make the race dangerous...by themself ! 20% risk is ok but not more.....so we can see the rider who falls down takes too much risk so that the season is over m aybe the next season ,too !
How cycling hasn’t followed Formula 1s example in improving safety is beyond me. The UCI are to blame but it will only be figured out by a riders union forcing change. And I can’t see that happening in the near future. They just aren’t organized enough and don’t have a talisman rider in the peloton willing to take up the reins and put there neck on the line.
Downhill WC is completely different - single riders racing TT Style - full face helmets and hans devices - no tarmac! - back protectors, knee pads, full sleeve jerseys - shorter race distances - 10 - 15 minute races - don’t have to worry about overheating etc from all the protective gear, plus less pedalling - no sprint finishes! - bikes are designed to get out of shape, full suspension - more traction, wider, low pressure tyres - more grip The list goes on. It’s apples to oranges
I think it was 50 / 50. There hadn’t been a corner in a while. In sprinting there is a little bit of drift but not that major and it was obvious the elbow being leaned out which is not natural
I agree if you look at the slo mo he moved across to close the door and for good measure put his elbow out. The UCI need to act quickly to prevent it happening in the next race if sprinters new possible harsh penalties it might make them think twice. The same as someone taking drugs in cycling
Barriers, avoidance of downhill finishes and road markings could all help. BUT, I agree. From the slow-mo, it was clear that Groenewegen drifted intentionally to slow down/block/intimidate Fabio as he would have won had he been given the room. 'Standard' tactical sprint maneuver. The 'red mist' or whatever you want to call the factor that is at play here is the same as 'road rage' in road traffic. This sort of thing should be punished! As a youngster, I experienced this very early on in track cycling. In later years I even experienced it in Master's road races. Some things never change.
Looks just like Sagan at the TDF last year. Clearly moving into the other riders lane and throwing the elbow. This is no accident. These riders should be banned for an entire year or two. No need to paint lane markers or any other BS. They know what they did.
This might be an irrelevant comment, but I'm wondering if the long delay between races may have played a role in the crash. Practice makes perfect, and when you spend that amount of time off not only racing but training as well, I suspect riding skills at 70 km might be a bit rusty. Here in North America, there were mini training camps for every pro sport team before resuming play. They had plenty of time to get re-acquainted after a long delay. I wish all the best for both riders, and I hope that this incident leads to something sorely needed in the pro peloton -- a union.
"they're sprinters, what do you expect" ? Oh I don't know, maybe that they show impulse control greater than a 6 year old who can't resist the cookie jar? : / Seriously, Bernhard Eisel aside, I think I just heard some of the dumbest takes in cycling.
Very PC, cant believe there saying he didn't intend to to that, please tell me what happens when riders are going at that speed and one rides diagonally across to deliberately impeed a rival. He is a professional cyclist and is totally aware of what could happen, (as stated here it's happened countless times before), and he decided to risk it in order to gain an advantage. People can sugar coat this as much as they want but until these guys are held to account this will keep happening. As a footnote if an F1 driver did something similar the FIA would never allow him to drive again, it appears in cycling it's all about excuses.
I don't understand how there still aren't any real safety barriers and more distance from fans and people to the race track.... incredible, really! It's like formula 1 in the 50s....
agreed. cycling racing is so backwards and pros risk their lives everyday
Rob Hatch did a great job there. Putting human feelings first.
Rob Hatch is such a good commentator, a real shame he is currently behind Carlton Kirby in the Eurosport pecking order.
@@williamc999 Carlton "indeed" Kirby
Ummm, how about proper crash barriers??
The barriers should not have moved like that! The organizer has at least partially fault.
For sure. Look at the Sagan Cavendish sprint crash, almost an exact copy but thoose barriers didn't budge.
Thank you very much for putting together such a thoughtful panel of experts to help us understand this terrible incident.
In my opinion, Groenewegen obviously didn’t try to cause injury to anyone intentionally. But it’s dishonest to act as if his line deviation was “natural” or “unintentional.” Is it debatable? Yeah sure. But speaking as if it wasn’t intentional in a self-evident manner is a bit much
I just listened 9mins into it and its shocking how much they try to victimize Dylan. He behaved recklessly and took a gamble which went horribly wrong. But he created the situation. And if sprinters can't control their line to some extend (Dylan moved half the roads width!) and people say its the nature of the sport. Than maybe you should really think about your sport.
Now ofc some other parties helped to create this situation. UCI not enforcing their line deviation rule as much as needed and the organizers with the barriers and the downhill sprint. But in the end Dylans behaviour initiated it all. And I expect every pro rider to understand what can happend if I put a fellow rider in a vulnerable position at 80kph right at the barriers.
Professional cyclists can ride in a straight line if they want to.
agreed. He didn't go out to 'intentionally hurt someone' (obviously...) but his deliberate actions directly caused the crash. He saw Jakobsen coming and moved to block him, putting Jakobsen into the barriers. How difficult is that to understand?
14:24 I personally don’t like seeing them crash! Love breakaways, solo mountain finishes maybe a small group sprints. Don’t like the field sprints. They don’t do anything for me personally.
UCI needs to be held accountable for this. There needs to be a retired pro preferably a sprinter (for sprint stages) that inspects the course and specifically the finish with the authority to cancel or alter the stage if need be.
Well, that finish itself is known for speeds, but was was there 30 years ago with speeds close to 65kmh has changed now to 90kmh! It's an interesting point if you can actually control your light bike with those speeds by being out of the saddle and pushing hard.
It just is what it is, if finish is that fast - there can be accidents and the only thing what can be done is to create better infrastructure around, e.g. having soft tall walls on a finishes where field sprint is going to happen?
RIP Jan Riedmann
Brad's suggestions aren't hard to implement. We could try them and just see, there is nothing to be lost there....
He knew what he was doing. He was trying to intimidate Jakobsen so he would back off. He probably didn't realize the terrible consequences of his squeezing Jakobsen against the barriers. Time to make fast sprint finishes safer by using visual aids like lane markers, maybe GPS devices to warn of excessive drift, safer barriers and extended bans against those who resort to dirty tactics in the event of a crash. It's gotten crazy.
Yes!
Ski racing they have 4' x 8' pads 8" thick on all the corners and Finnish area! You don't notice them because they're made to put banners over them! Have seen many crashes at 90k where the skier gets up and walks away!
I hope this doesn't affect Groenewegen in the future. Fantastic athlete
Well put by all.
Having been in a bike crash going 30mph, I can only imagine what the the addition of a metal barrier can do. I’ve always wondered, given the speeds and basically no protection, those barriers aren’t padded.
I’m not sure padding is necessarily the answer. In a head on situation having something to absorb the energy is definitely the answer but in situations where impact occurs at a wide angle, you don’t generally want to arrest the energy at the point of impact. Instead it’s preferable to allow the casualty to lose the energy over the longest amount of time reducing the max force exerted on the body which is wha causes the most damage.
So if padding were to work I’d suggest we’d only be talking a thin padding to allow this sliding mechanism still. So in reality it wouldn’t be providing much in the way of safety and in most situations not overly affecting the outcome of injuries.
I think at the least barriers shouldn’t be able to fly up in the air and cause more devastation!
Blocking or closing doors is an age-old practice. No one can tell me that moving into oncoming traffic was innocent or purely unintentional... at best he can claim that he was hoping his competitors would slam on their brakes, get trapped or move out of the way and take a longer line to the finish. He was counting on them not risking a crash and therefore opting out for the previously mentioned options and losing their chance at victory.
Brad always like hearing your thoughts brother. Very dangerous mater! Love racing so much, but has to be harshly enforced rules. Peace be with you
Sir. Brad made a great point with the sprint lanes. That seems like it would be really great. Also, higher barriers with some kind of protective cover on the top might be helpful. It should be made harder to go over the top of the barrier.
Seems like a good idea, but unworkable. What do you do if you are sitting 3rd on a wheel and move right or left to come around, and end up putting a rider behind you into the barriers. This happens at the front and further back in the field all the time. Riders accept the risks. Sprinters know exactly what the risks are when they go thru, and they can see the gap closing, but choose not to check up. Sad, but it is the sprint mentality that puts them in the situation.
Young men will always take chances, they know the risks and choose to engage.
I do not see a good solution. But it's definitely worth talking about, but not threatening jail time. Fines yes, suspensions yes. But that's as far as I would take it.
Spot on!
I don't get why they use those city barriers and not some proper plastic barriers or something used for car racing. I mean it wouldn't cost much if it's only for finish.
Three things to Consider. First a lane or line on each side of the finish that you may not cross / deviate from your line. You won’t stop all the pushing, but pushing riders into the barriers is the critical element that needs to be stopped. Second, the final arch needs foam or some protection. Lastly Jakobsen lost his helmet BEFORE he hit the ground. This needs to be better understood and addressed. Wearing a helmet is critical but if it comes off in a high G crash, wearing a helmet is not enough !
Thé barrière where miss placed ... and was not a protection .... a solution to limit the race width ... to 10Metre if the road is 15 meter large .... if you go over the line you would be dq and if you crash you don’t hit the barrière straight away ...
Brad on point as always.
Especially about g winning the tour
From the viewpoint of impartial observer, road markings, barrier or road choices rules,... may be an additional help but the key is to create a mindset in the rider such that he/she is extremely unlikely to intuitively cause a crash. In humans the strongest way to do so is to know that there will inevitably be extreme consequences. Rule must also be simple and extremely clear. I would propose that if a rider who caused the crash by action against the existing rules (no matter the vague "intent") must suffer lifetime ban in cycling if anyone who is injured requires more than a 1 day of hospital stay or anyone suffers permanent disability. Yes ,harsh but the only certain way to dramatically increase safety by changing human mindset of participants.
Deviating from your line is one thing. But you don't stick your arm out and shove someone into the barrier by accident.
In this day and age surely there’s something better than metal barriers.
Do people seriously believe Dylan is the first guy in history to close the door on another sprinter?
Ppl are too stupid and quick to point finger at anything they don't like. I've seen countless of footage with sprint finishes similar as this one and most of them end with someone crashing between the barriers of with other cyclists.
Groenewegen's deviation was clearly intentional, as he was repeatedly looking backwards, under his legs, and as Jakobsen went to overtake, he moved to the right to block it, and kept moving. It clearly wasn't just a random 'deviation'. This intentional drifting has been happening for a while and it needs to stop. The lady on the video talks about post-accident 'emotions' but Groenewegen's actions caused this crash, in my view, and how he feels about it afterwards isn't the point at all. You can talk about crap barriers but whatever was there, it was always going to be a big crash. You need something on the road, as Wiggins says, or maybe some kind of 'no go' or 'no cross' zones next to the barriers.
Air fences beside all finish lines would have prevented most of these serious injuries.
Start banning people who that puts other athletes health at risk. Cases like this would stop happening.
It's criminal what just happened.
Agree. This went from unfortunate when he didnt hold hes line, to illegal when he kept cutting him off towards the barrier to criminal when at 80+ km/h he stuck out hes elbow and PUSHED another human being towards a wall.
I feel sorry for him. I get it. The adrenaline, the split second decision, etc. But this is like F1 or LeMans from the 60s... You cant do that in motorsports these days and the UCI should send a clear message that you cant do that in cycling either.
The riders make the race dangerous...by themself ! 20% risk is ok but not more.....so we can see the rider who falls down takes too much risk so that the season is over m aybe the next season ,too !
Are they going to fine/ban that rider? I don't know much about racing but he clearly ment to cut that dude off????
How cycling hasn’t followed Formula 1s example in improving safety is beyond me. The UCI are to blame but it will only be figured out by a riders union forcing change. And I can’t see that happening in the near future. They just aren’t organized enough and don’t have a talisman rider in the peloton willing to take up the reins and put there neck on the line.
Noone talking about the increase in deaths since helmets became compulsory? No way riders would crash so much if they weren't wearing helmets.
Look at UCI Downhill... It's really safe. How can't the same be done for sprint finishes on road?
Downhill WC is completely different
- single riders racing TT Style
- full face helmets and hans devices
- no tarmac!
- back protectors, knee pads, full sleeve jerseys
- shorter race distances - 10 - 15 minute races - don’t have to worry about overheating etc from all the protective gear, plus less pedalling
- no sprint finishes!
- bikes are designed to get out of shape, full suspension - more traction, wider, low pressure tyres - more grip
The list goes on. It’s apples to oranges
BS, it wasn't natural drift. He did it on purpose as he knew he was losing the sprint.
You clearly haven't been in a sprint
I think it was 50 / 50. There hadn’t been a corner in a while. In sprinting there is a little bit of drift but not that major and it was obvious the elbow being leaned out which is not natural
I agree if you look at the slo mo he moved across to close the door and for good measure put his elbow out. The UCI need to act quickly to prevent it happening in the next race if sprinters new possible harsh penalties it might make them think twice. The same as someone taking drugs in cycling
Barriers, avoidance of downhill finishes and road markings could all help.
BUT, I agree. From the slow-mo, it was clear that Groenewegen drifted intentionally to slow down/block/intimidate Fabio as he would have won had he been given the room. 'Standard' tactical sprint maneuver. The 'red mist' or whatever you want to call the factor that is at play here is the same as 'road rage' in road traffic. This sort of thing should be punished! As a youngster, I experienced this very early on in track cycling. In later years I even experienced it in Master's road races. Some things never change.
Looks just like Sagan at the TDF last year. Clearly moving into the other riders lane and throwing the elbow. This is no accident. These riders should be banned for an entire year or two. No need to paint lane markers or any other BS. They know what they did.
If you move off your line in a sprint you should be DQd and banned
This might be an irrelevant comment, but I'm wondering if the long delay between races may have played a role in the crash. Practice makes perfect, and when you spend that amount of time off not only racing but training as well, I suspect riding skills at 70 km might be a bit rusty. Here in North America, there were mini training camps for every pro sport team before resuming play. They had plenty of time to get re-acquainted after a long delay. I wish all the best for both riders, and I hope that this incident leads to something sorely needed in the pro peloton -- a union.
Bernie "Arnold" Eisel
"they're sprinters, what do you expect" ?
Oh I don't know, maybe that they show impulse control greater than a 6 year old who can't resist the cookie jar? : /
Seriously, Bernhard Eisel aside, I think I just heard some of the dumbest takes in cycling.
Cycling needs new and improved PED's!
Very PC, cant believe there saying he didn't intend to to that, please tell me what happens when riders are going at that speed and one rides diagonally across to deliberately impeed a rival. He is a professional cyclist and is totally aware of what could happen, (as stated here it's happened countless times before), and he decided to risk it in order to gain an advantage. People can sugar coat this as much as they want but until these guys are held to account this will keep happening. As a footnote if an F1 driver did something similar the FIA would never allow him to drive again, it appears in cycling it's all about excuses.