Regarding the two sets of plates, Joseph Smith in mentioning the Title Page, stated: ".. I give below that part of the Title Page of the English version of the Book of Mormon, which is a genuine and literal translation of the the Title Page of the Original Book of Mormon, as recorded on the plates." The Prophet used the word "Original" referring to the first set of plates.
Steven. I heard that President Nelson recently had an interview with God and asked 3 questions. Will Jews, Christians and Muslims ever live in peace? "Yes, Russell, but not in your lifetime." Will all the churches that profess a belief in Your Son finally stop bickering and join to serve you in love? "Yes, Russell, but it won't be in your lifetime." Will the heartlanders and meso people ever end their feud? "Yes, Russell, but not in My lifetime. " 😅
Thank you for this discussion. I have a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel and the Book of Mormon. Eventually all truth will be revealed (D&C 76: 5-10) Until then, we get to listen and ponder each others ideas and opinions😂
The idea of Joseph Smith placing his face in a hat with a seer stone, then talking through his hat, is complete satire. The phrase, "Talking through one's hat," is to mock someone as talking nonsense about a subject that they know nothing about or talking off the top of their head by making things up. Do an AI search on the origin of the phrase, it's Irish and refers to a drunk. It was also a political phrase, referring to political jargon. Also, the idea that The Prophet had to place his face in a hat to block out the light is also ridiculous, as Joseph Smith could merely have read from the stone at night after dark, thus avoiding the use of a hat and talking through it to his scribes. Men's business and formal attire once included the wearing of a hat, discontinued basically in the early 60s when JFK became president and stopped wearing a hat. That influenced men's fashion at the time. Today practically no one wears a hat with a men's suit. It's amazing that current scholars, take the idea literally and depict the Prophet with his face in a hat. It's ridiculous.
Those of us who say Joseph did not practice polygamy are also called apostates because they are closed minded and take the word of the scholars. There are a lot of them who dont want to accept the information beinf dug up by those who are doing the work and going deeper than the scholars.
I was raised believing the central American theory. However, there isn't one single location in south America that has achieved the world status America has. "a land flowing with milk and honey." etc. Not to mention the military, financial, science, vast numbers of Biblical tribes/descendants of peoples from around the world ALL living and mostly prospering in a land the entire world wants to emulate. People literally die trying to live here.
You mention Central America but shift your arguments to South America and make 3motional but fact lacking arguments. Argentina produces the most honey in the western hemisphere. Besides that, the term "milk and honey"is only mentioned in 2 Nephi and is speaking of eternal life, not the promised land. All in all you made up stuff
@@BrianTerrill I suppose Argentina is also the land of promise because it attacked the Falkland Islands and has the comic book Mafalda and its many military coups as predicted in The Book of Mormon.
I care less about the geography. I think meso and heartland both have strengths and weaknesses. I'm not 100% sold on either. But Jonathan Neville's views on the translation are absolutely right. The stone in the hat theory makes no sense and is supported by incredibly flimsy evidence. It only exists because non LDS historians can't accept a miraculous explanation to the translation, so they have dug up the stone theory using weak evidence because it's much easier to apply a non miraculous origin to the translation via the stone in the hat theory. The traditional explanation involves angels and ancient mystical interpreters, and non LDS scholars can't accept that. It's much easier to say Joseph made up the BoM by reading words off of a rock. So they run with that. And LDS scholars have accepted their theories because they want to be accepted by mainstream historians.
Stone in the Hat came from the 1844 anti-book "Mormonism Unvailed" [sic] by E.D. Howe, an excommunicated member with a grudge (he played patty cake with the ladies). In his book, he brought up both the Urim and Thummim and the stone in the hat - indicating stone-in-a-hat was a false claim from before. It's a satirical phrase - talking through one's hat - meaning talking nonsense. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery denied it when they were alive. Current scholars drudge up documents not aware of the false claims referred to by Joseph Smith in JSH 1:1 in the Pearl of Great Price, then assume s-i-t-h is true then claim Joseph was deceptive, the very claim by E.D. Howe.
The Meso people are certainly far more hostile towards the Heartland. I think the Heartland advocates would be better to move away from claiming that BYU or FAIR is duping the current church hierarchy. Stop pretending Joseph didn’t use a seer stone in the hat to translate would help as well. I don’t know those changes would bring Daniel Peterson or Brant Gardner to the table for a discussion but it’s worth trying.
Regarding the two sets of plates, Joseph Smith in mentioning the Title Page, stated: ".. I give below that part of the Title Page of the English version of the Book of Mormon, which is a genuine and literal translation of the the Title Page of the Original Book of Mormon, as recorded on the plates." The Prophet used the word "Original" referring to the first set of plates.
Love your channel and videos, Steve.
You're the man.
Steven. I heard that President Nelson recently had an interview with God and asked 3 questions.
Will Jews, Christians and Muslims ever live in peace?
"Yes, Russell, but not in your lifetime."
Will all the churches that profess a belief in Your Son finally stop bickering and join to serve you in love?
"Yes, Russell, but it won't be in your lifetime."
Will the heartlanders and meso people ever end their feud?
"Yes, Russell, but not in My lifetime. " 😅
That’s good 😂😂😂😂
Haha
Thank you for this discussion. I have a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel and the Book of Mormon. Eventually all truth will be revealed (D&C 76: 5-10) Until then, we get to listen and ponder each others ideas and opinions😂
Motivated reasoning is a helluva drug
Has Jonathan tried to meet with one of the Q15 to share his findings?
Sure... hahahahha.
🇨🇭🇨🇭🇨🇭
The idea of Joseph Smith placing his face in a hat with a seer stone, then talking through his hat, is complete satire. The phrase, "Talking through one's hat," is to mock someone as talking nonsense about a subject that they know nothing about or talking off the top of their head by making things up. Do an AI search on the origin of the phrase, it's Irish and refers to a drunk. It was also a political phrase, referring to political jargon.
Also, the idea that The Prophet had to place his face in a hat to block out the light is also ridiculous, as Joseph Smith could merely have read from the stone at night after dark, thus avoiding the use of a hat and talking through it to his scribes.
Men's business and formal attire once included the wearing of a hat, discontinued basically in the early 60s when JFK became president and stopped wearing a hat. That influenced men's fashion at the time. Today practically no one wears a hat with a men's suit. It's amazing that current scholars, take the idea literally and depict the Prophet with his face in a hat. It's ridiculous.
Those of us who say Joseph did not practice polygamy are also called apostates because they are closed minded and take the word of the scholars. There are a lot of them who dont want to accept the information beinf dug up by those who are doing the work and going deeper than the scholars.
I was raised believing the central American theory. However, there isn't one single location in south America that has achieved the world status America has.
"a land flowing with milk and honey." etc. Not to mention the military, financial, science, vast numbers of Biblical tribes/descendants of peoples from around the world ALL living and mostly prospering in a land the entire world wants to emulate. People literally die trying to live here.
You mention Central America but shift your arguments to South America and make 3motional but fact lacking arguments. Argentina produces the most honey in the western hemisphere. Besides that, the term "milk and honey"is only mentioned in 2 Nephi and is speaking of eternal life, not the promised land.
All in all you made up stuff
@@BrianTerrill I suppose Argentina is also the land of promise because it attacked the Falkland Islands and has the comic book Mafalda and its many military coups as predicted in The Book of Mormon.
I care less about the geography. I think meso and heartland both have strengths and weaknesses. I'm not 100% sold on either. But Jonathan Neville's views on the translation are absolutely right. The stone in the hat theory makes no sense and is supported by incredibly flimsy evidence. It only exists because non LDS historians can't accept a miraculous explanation to the translation, so they have dug up the stone theory using weak evidence because it's much easier to apply a non miraculous origin to the translation via the stone in the hat theory. The traditional explanation involves angels and ancient mystical interpreters, and non LDS scholars can't accept that. It's much easier to say Joseph made up the BoM by reading words off of a rock. So they run with that. And LDS scholars have accepted their theories because they want to be accepted by mainstream historians.
It isnt just non members. The leaders themselves are messed up on the subject.
Stone in the Hat came from the 1844 anti-book "Mormonism Unvailed" [sic] by E.D. Howe, an excommunicated member with a grudge (he played patty cake with the ladies). In his book, he brought up both the Urim and Thummim and the stone in the hat - indicating stone-in-a-hat was a false claim from before. It's a satirical phrase - talking through one's hat - meaning talking nonsense. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery denied it when they were alive. Current scholars drudge up documents not aware of the false claims referred to by Joseph Smith in JSH 1:1 in the Pearl of Great Price, then assume s-i-t-h is true then claim Joseph was deceptive, the very claim by E.D. Howe.
Book Mormon Central's positions on geography and stone in the hat have contributed to many peoples' loss of faith.
Theories aren't evidence.
Gold plates cannot physically disappear. Unless you believe in magical nonsense. Without gold plates, the Book Of Mormon is a joke.
The Meso people are certainly far more hostile towards the Heartland. I think the Heartland advocates would be better to move away from claiming that BYU or FAIR is duping the current church hierarchy. Stop pretending Joseph didn’t use a seer stone in the hat to translate would help as well. I don’t know those changes would bring Daniel Peterson or Brant Gardner to the table for a discussion but it’s worth trying.