I've listend to several interviews with BYP and thought I knew his backstory well, but the level of detail in here about the founding of FAIR was facinating! Thanks for giving Kerry the time to share these facinating stories.
Great interview, loved it. Thanks for being on, Kerry! I think you and I were Facebook friends at one point. Yeah, I watched this last night and I know a lot of names that Kerry shirts mentioned because I was part of FAIR oh10 years ago or so. I left because it became too cerebral for me to keep up with and there was one guy there that really insulted me verbally because of his presumptuous pompous attitude. None of the names kerry mentioned were that person. Now I understand more fully why kerry left FAIR and the church But personally, my emphasis is on Christ and the doctrines regarding Christ taught by the church and not on the fallibility of prophets.
This was really good. I was at that FAIR conference when Brent Metcalfe came. He showed me his high resolution photos, they were really good. That incident where FAIR kicked out Van Hale for his Book of Mormon views really rubbed me the wrong way at the time. It had to be around 2009 because I recall talking about it with Van on the way to MHA with Steve Mayfield in Sacramento, I too didn’t like FAIR so much afterwards. Van Hale had been defending the church since the early 1980s and to be disrespected like that was outrageous.
Very interesting. Thanks. FAIR and gospel topics essays sealed the deal for me leaving because the best answers available were not very convincing within a fundamental/orthodox viewpoint.
I'd be interested in an example of this. I've never understood those that say... FAIR and the gospel Topics essays sealed the deal for me... I'd really appreciate it because I've not understood it to this point.
@@zionssuburb I can just speak to my experience, but I can give a few examples. (1) I read and was taught that Joseph Smith claimed that the Egyptian papyri were written "by the hand of Abraham, but critics say that this can not be the case because the papyri are not as old as Abraham. So, look this up on FAIR: "When Joseph Smith obtained the papyri in 1835, he reportedly said that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham...."[3] According to Joseph's scribes, this scroll was "written" by Abraham's "own hand upon papyrus."[4] It seems reasonable to conclude that Joseph believed that Abraham himself, with pen in hand, wrote the very words that he was translating. The problem is that most modern scholars (including LDS scholars) date the papyri to a few centuries before Christ, whereas Abraham lived about two millennia before Christ. Obviously, Abraham himself could not have penned the papyri." So now the choice is that either Joseph Smith was wrong and if he was wrong about this, what else was he wrong about or that there is some other convoluted way that it was actually written by Abraham. FAIR admits that this factoid is correct. (2) I was taught (and taught as a missionary from correlated instruction material), that the Lamanites were the principle ancestors of native Americans, but a critic claims that native Americans are not descendants of people from Israel. So look that up on FAIR: "Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples, and even if their genetic profile were known, there are sound scientific reasons that it might remain undetected...DNA samples taken from modern Native Americans do not match the DNA of modern inhabitants of the Middle East." So we have an admission that modern native Americans (and since they don't want to admit it either, samples from prior native American DNA where available) does not match Middle East DNA. Now the choice is that Joseph Smith was wrong about who the native Americans /Lamanites and the church and/or FAIR are trying to deny that this was ever a claim or it might still be the case and we have to change the story that the Lamanites are somewhere among the native Americans, but we don't know where and we have to try to downplay the evidence as much as possible. (3) A critic said that Joseph hid his plural marriages from Emma. Look this up on FAIR. "For example, he had been sealed to Emily and Eliza Partridge already, and Emma later had one of her periods of acceptance of plural marriage, on condition that she get to choose the wives. [2] She chose Emily and Eliza, and so they were resealed to Joseph without disclosing that they were already sealed." So again, FAIR admits that the fact is true. This again puts me in the situation where "the critic" has put forward real facts that FAIR corroborates. Most of the rest of the writing around these points try to make excuses for why we shouldn't put too much weight on these facts. But the best case for these arguments are that we either have to rethink what the church teaches or how we view Joseph Smith or the church or we have to try to downplay the evidence. Sure, many of the stories related to each topic are complicated, but most of the problematic facts presented by the critic are admitted to by FAIR and the gospel topics essays. They just want the believer to think the issues are not as important as the critic says even if the issues are real and problematic. For me, going through topic after topic, the same pattern continues that the critic's point is correct and that in order to not have that affect belief, it becomes necessary to make room for lots of times that a prophet didn't really mean what he said, or a prophet was wrong, or we have to deny scientific consensus, or the church is changing what was previously revealed doctrine. There are so many points, but for another that makes me sick reading, reading about Lowry Nelson (www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/12/18/mormon-fair-cast-185-race-and-the-priesthood). Sorry, long reply. This was my experience. After seeing point after point that "the critic's points" were corroborated and that the actual facts could not be denied, I couldn't believe anymore. Thus my response is that FAIR helped me get out of the church because it corroborated the problems without providing any real answers.
Yeah, I watched this last night and I know a lot of names that Kerry shirts mentioned because I was part of FAIR oh10 years ago or so. I left because it became too cerebral for me to keep up with and there was one guy there that really insulted me verbally because of his presumptuous pompous attitude. None of the names kerry mentioned were that person. Great interview loved it !!
You are more concerned about curing your hurt feelings you got from being rejected. Fair Mormon does more good than damage. Fair Mormon isn’t running people out, they would have been out no matter if fair even existed.
@@dr33776 Definitely agree with this. I went to them hoping they had solid responses that would refute critics. When the best they have is sidestepping the issues or trying to downplay contrary evidence, it shows that no one has good answers to issues "the critics" point out. The best they seem to be able to provide is comfort to those who don't want to look too closely or have already determined to believe even if it is contrary to the evidence.
@ the podcasts from Mormon Stories to Mormonish and more attempt to drive people away have driven more recently back to the church, wonderful how that works.
I took a BoM class at BYU with Nibley as the instructor. He would fall asleep while teaching the class. I laugh about that here at about 60+ years later!!
What kind of arguments does FAIR provide that invalidate the critics' arguments? Seems this video doesn't even go there. Just sounds like blind adherence to authority and it only supports my scepticism. Kerry, sorry, but you don't strike me as an intelligent person. You can barely string two words together. I would have thought the people behind FAIR would have at least been somewhat persuasive. Gonna have to give you a thumbs down;)
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I've listend to several interviews with BYP and thought I knew his backstory well, but the level of detail in here about the founding of FAIR was facinating! Thanks for giving Kerry the time to share these facinating stories.
Thanks!
Thanks for the contribution!
Great Job!!! Recent Mormon History is the most important era of Mormonism...
Great interview, loved it.
Thanks for being on, Kerry!
I think you and I were Facebook friends at one point.
Yeah, I watched this last night and I know a lot of names that Kerry shirts mentioned because I was part of FAIR oh10 years ago or so.
I left because it became too cerebral for me to keep up with and there was one guy there that really insulted me verbally because of his presumptuous pompous attitude.
None of the names kerry mentioned were that person.
Now I understand more fully why kerry left FAIR and the church
But personally, my emphasis is on Christ and the doctrines regarding Christ taught by the church and not on the fallibility of prophets.
I love Kerry!
Me too!
BYP’s expectation for LDS Apologetics is more in line with Hugh Nibley-who invited research and study.
@TBYP great show, thanks for the FAIR history
My good pleasure
This was really good. I was at that FAIR conference when Brent Metcalfe came. He showed me his high resolution photos, they were really good. That incident where FAIR kicked out Van Hale for his Book of Mormon views really rubbed me the wrong way at the time. It had to be around 2009 because I recall talking about it with Van on the way to MHA with Steve Mayfield in Sacramento, I too didn’t like FAIR so much afterwards. Van Hale had been defending the church since the early 1980s and to be disrespected like that was outrageous.
Very interesting. Thanks. FAIR and gospel topics essays sealed the deal for me leaving because the best answers available were not very convincing within a fundamental/orthodox viewpoint.
@@jeremiahgreen5161 🙄
I'd be interested in an example of this. I've never understood those that say... FAIR and the gospel Topics essays sealed the deal for me... I'd really appreciate it because I've not understood it to this point.
@@zionssuburb I can just speak to my experience, but I can give a few examples.
(1) I read and was taught that Joseph Smith claimed that the Egyptian papyri were written "by the hand of Abraham, but critics say that this can not be the case because the papyri are not as old as Abraham. So, look this up on FAIR:
"When Joseph Smith obtained the papyri in 1835, he reportedly said that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham...."[3] According to Joseph's scribes, this scroll was "written" by Abraham's "own hand upon papyrus."[4] It seems reasonable to conclude that Joseph believed that Abraham himself, with pen in hand, wrote the very words that he was translating. The problem is that most modern scholars (including LDS scholars) date the papyri to a few centuries before Christ, whereas Abraham lived about two millennia before Christ. Obviously, Abraham himself could not have penned the papyri."
So now the choice is that either Joseph Smith was wrong and if he was wrong about this, what else was he wrong about or that there is some other convoluted way that it was actually written by Abraham. FAIR admits that this factoid is correct.
(2) I was taught (and taught as a missionary from correlated instruction material), that the Lamanites were the principle ancestors of native Americans, but a critic claims that native Americans are not descendants of people from Israel. So look that up on FAIR:
"Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples, and even if their genetic profile were known, there are sound scientific reasons that it might remain undetected...DNA samples taken from modern Native Americans do not match the DNA of modern inhabitants of the Middle East."
So we have an admission that modern native Americans (and since they don't want to admit it either, samples from prior native American DNA where available) does not match Middle East DNA. Now the choice is that Joseph Smith was wrong about who the native Americans /Lamanites and the church and/or FAIR are trying to deny that this was ever a claim or it might still be the case and we have to change the story that the Lamanites are somewhere among the native Americans, but we don't know where and we have to try to downplay the evidence as much as possible.
(3) A critic said that Joseph hid his plural marriages from Emma. Look this up on FAIR.
"For example, he had been sealed to Emily and Eliza Partridge already, and Emma later had one of her periods of acceptance of plural marriage, on condition that she get to choose the wives. [2] She chose Emily and Eliza, and so they were resealed to Joseph without disclosing that they were already sealed."
So again, FAIR admits that the fact is true. This again puts me in the situation where "the critic" has put forward real facts that FAIR corroborates. Most of the rest of the writing around these points try to make excuses for why we shouldn't put too much weight on these facts. But the best case for these arguments are that we either have to rethink what the church teaches or how we view Joseph Smith or the church or we have to try to downplay the evidence. Sure, many of the stories related to each topic are complicated, but most of the problematic facts presented by the critic are admitted to by FAIR and the gospel topics essays. They just want the believer to think the issues are not as important as the critic says even if the issues are real and problematic.
For me, going through topic after topic, the same pattern continues that the critic's point is correct and that in order to not have that affect belief, it becomes necessary to make room for lots of times that a prophet didn't really mean what he said, or a prophet was wrong, or we have to deny scientific consensus, or the church is changing what was previously revealed doctrine. There are so many points, but for another that makes me sick reading, reading about Lowry Nelson (www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/12/18/mormon-fair-cast-185-race-and-the-priesthood).
Sorry, long reply. This was my experience. After seeing point after point that "the critic's points" were corroborated and that the actual facts could not be denied, I couldn't believe anymore. Thus my response is that FAIR helped me get out of the church because it corroborated the problems without providing any real answers.
The video is just starting for my but I can say as someone who has been around the subjects there are very few better than Kerry.
Just started reading the new Mormon challenge, it is impressive its arguments against Mormonism.
Hello from Provo.
Yeah, I watched this last night and I know a lot of names that Kerry shirts mentioned because I was part of FAIR oh10 years ago or so.
I left because it became too cerebral for me to keep up with and there was one guy there that really insulted me verbally because of his presumptuous pompous attitude.
None of the names kerry mentioned were that person.
Great interview loved it !!
Great discussion. Yep, pretty much there is a scholarly orthodoxy.
You are more concerned about curing your hurt feelings you got from being rejected. Fair Mormon does more good than damage. Fair Mormon isn’t running people out, they would have been out no matter if fair even existed.
Their pathetic attempt at responding to critics drive more people out.
@@dr33776 are you an active and believing member?
@@smuggythornton no bad reason to leave Mormonism, FAIR is the Least of these good reasons.
@@dr33776 Definitely agree with this. I went to them hoping they had solid responses that would refute critics. When the best they have is sidestepping the issues or trying to downplay contrary evidence, it shows that no one has good answers to issues "the critics" point out. The best they seem to be able to provide is comfort to those who don't want to look too closely or have already determined to believe even if it is contrary to the evidence.
@ the podcasts from Mormon Stories to Mormonish and more attempt to drive people away have driven more recently back to the church, wonderful how that works.
Nibley
I took a BoM class at BYU with Nibley as the instructor.
He would fall asleep while teaching the class. I laugh about that here at about 60+ years later!!
What kind of arguments does FAIR provide that invalidate the critics' arguments? Seems this video doesn't even go there. Just sounds like blind adherence to authority and it only supports my scepticism. Kerry, sorry, but you don't strike me as an intelligent person. You can barely string two words together. I would have thought the people behind FAIR would have at least been somewhat persuasive. Gonna have to give you a thumbs down;)
You are probably more correct than not. Oh wait, that's more than two words......Damn!