Murph, having Jonathan on is a great measure of your character and willingness to be open-minded. I can learn from that. I do wish Scripture/Book of Mormon Central would do the same.
I agree with you about Murph, but since Murph and others such as Ward Radio, Stick of Joseph, etc., are independent of either side of coin regarding the BofM geographical model discussions they can be comfortable interviewing representatives from both sides of this debate. I can't see Scripture Central, BofM Central, the Interpreter Foundation, FAIRLDS, or other related channels and web sites doing this same type of thing for the following valid reasons. For the same reasons, I cannot see Heartland Model sites presenting material from Mesoamerican theorists: - There is a very fundamental difference in research methodology between these 2 camps (Heartland and Mesoamerican theories). The Heartland model uses as one of its primary 'evidences' their strongly held opinion that Joseph Smith (and also Oliver Cowdery) were given divine revelation of the BofM geography, particularly the location of the final Nephite battles (near Cumorah of the Book of Mormon text) and the city of Zarahemla. The other model proponents (including the various Mesoamerican theories) have a very different opinion on this. Since the Heartland folks are 100% convinced of this idea, and since it forms a very fundamental part of their theory, to the point of accusing those who disagree with them of "not believing the words of the prophets", I just can't see the 2 groups having any kind of a meaningful discussion on this topic, nor can I see any kind of compatibility between them, which precludes any possibility of including papers, interviews, or discussions on the web sites or channels of either opposing side. This, along with their totally opposing views of what is considered valid scientific 'evidence', makes it virtually impossible for either party to accommodate the other on the same web site or youtube channel, etc. My main gripe with the Heartland Model folks is this stubborn insistence that Joseph and Oliver "knew" the exact BofM event locations and that those who believe otherwise are somehow 'not as faithful' and those who believe as they do. In other words, they won't accept as a valid model any that don't believe this. The other thing that I don't care for is the use of really flaky science such as the totally nonsensical X mtdna argument which they believe links the native Americans of North America to the Israelites. That argument is just totally wrong on so many levels to the point of absurdity. If it weren't for those 2 glaring foundational methodological issues I think the 2 camps could probably find some level of compatibility.
@@philandrews2860 I think both sides have their fairly solid arguments and their fringy claims. For instance, I think the Mesoamerican idea of two Cumorahs is odd. There's also no mention of Nephites building stone pyramids and such, but we do see Moroni initiating defensive cities with mounds, ditches, and pickets and North America is covered with those in the east. Heartlanders rely on a a lot of sketchy artifacts that were most likely forged, but perhaps some among those are genuine. I don't think the Heartland model relies on Joseph knowing where the Book of Mormon took place, but I think he knew. Whether he strongly indicated that knowledge to others is debatable. I do think the strongest Heartland evidence is concerning the prophecies about the land and the nation, and the early church sending missionaries to the Lamanites. While I don't 100% agree with either side, I lean more towards the Nephite lands being in North America. While it's hard to pin down geography, I think that may be due to some potentially catastrophic changes in the land caused by the New Madrid system. The Book of Mormon does state that the whole face of the land became "deformed" and that it astonished people when they saw it. There could have been many shallow inland "seas" (the "Sea of Galillee" is only 6 miles across) that got drained due to this disruption making the geography hard to nail down today. Another main reason is that's where the plates ended up. It makes sense that the plates would be buried near where the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations came to an end as a testament to that effect. But I do agree that both sides have irreconcilable differences and that neither side is going to present material for the other. Personally, I think the majority of the Native Americans scattered across North and South America were breakoffs of the original Jaredite civlization. I think that the decendants of these remnants account for many of these groups of people in Central and South America. There may be many other ideas that haven't been considered yet but in the mean time, it's good to see these guys duke it out and defend their thesis.
@@philandrews2860 The very fact that there are two camps of Book of Mormon believers who propose that the location for its events are thousand of miles away tells us that there is no evidence in either location to be able to even generalize it. Imagine if there were two groups of people discussing where the Mayans lived, with one group saying Central America and the other saying the Great Lakes area. That's how silly this debate about possible BOM locations is. If there's no evidence in either location, it didn't happen in either location. In fact, if you go by what is actually written in the BOM, the only possible location is the Middle East, because that's the only place on the planet where Hebrews, horses, and metal tools and weaponry existed in 600 BC.
Excellent discussion. One point not touched was that the Heartland models have a realistic proposal for how the Lehites came to America, which is around the Cape of Good Hope and across the mid-Atlantic following existing winds and currents the whole way. All Mesoamerican models fail right from the beginning as long as they are based on a trans-Pacific crossing against all prevailing winds and currents.
This little mystery could be solved if we could find some evidence of admixture of Hebrew/Semitic DNA into native American tribes that occurred around 600 BC.
Joseph Smith said that they landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien and Joseph F Smith reconfirmed it when he declared that they landed in Chile. Then Joseph Fielding Smith further supports that thought. If you research any sayings and comments from the prophets and apostles, you will discover that all of them place Lehi's landing in South America, on the west coast. The reason that not a single prophet and apostle will not reference the Heartland model is because it's false. The Meso model also is false. There may be some things in each that are true, but there are far too many things that are false in each of them. Now, the other problem that has now arisen with the Heartland model is that they're basically saying that all of these prophets and apostles are wrong and their own theory is correct. And that right there is basically priestcraft, because these men received revelation pertaining to this subject and are being told they're wrong. Then they try to profit off of their model. And that is priestcraft.
@@TheForgottenMan270 "Joseph Smith said that they landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien and Joseph F Smith reconfirmed it when he declared that they landed in Chile." Cool! Now all we need is one shred of physical evidence that the "Book of Mormon people" actually existed in that area.
There is no problem with Lehi's family coming from the Pacific side except the heartlanders say so. Heartlanders like to diminish the faith of Mesos but then they fabricate all these issues that they say are scientific impossibility, but Nephi didn't build the ship after the manner of men and he wasn't led by currents, the path they followed was the one the Liahona. So where is your faith heartlanders? What God can't move the winds and the ocean in a way to get them to the promised land except under Africa? You make up all these things you say are impossible to discredit the meso theories and then you expect us to agree to your pseudoscience when wondering how Zarahemla no longer is surrounded by water on both sides like the Book of Mormon says etc
The reason those two theories exist is because there are no artifacts in either region to show that the Book of Mormon people existed in either of them. Imagine if one group of people believed that the Mayans existed in Central America, and another group theorized that they lived in the Great Lakes area. The former region would be the correct one, right? Because the evidence exists there to prove it. But there are no artifacts of those hundreds of thousand of Nephites and Lamanites and their horses and chariots and steel swords and the cities they built which stretched from sea to sea.
@@randyjordan5521 You have contrary comments thoroughly populated all across the thread of this video. *_Why are you so interested in something you claim to have abandoned_* ?
I visited Nauvoo several years ago. When I was asking a senior missionary couple about some mounds that were across the street from our Air BnB, the elder went off on me! He was almost angry as he was telling me how the Heartland model had been debunked by some PhD student. I think it was so upsetting to his wife, she messed up on her weaving demonstration she was showing me. I have to admit that my heart was hurt after his attack. A day or two later, I ran into some OG Heartlanders doing a friend tour of some mounds in the area and was invited to go with them. I went along and learned a lot and very much enjoyed it. When I told them what had happened with this senior missionary, *they* started going off about how people couldn't see how the Heartland is the truth, etc. I was a little shocked by their response. My testimony is not based on where I think the BOM took place. BUT, I *do* have to say that I've learned So Much more about what the BOM says, what Joseph Smith taught, AND all about ancient peoples of the US (which were NEVER taught to me in public school)! If nothing else matters, my knowledge has been increased about actual truths. My testimony of the BOM and of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and the leader of this dispensation has been solidified by my reading and learning about the Heartland model. (Funny- I never said this when I believed in the Meso-Model/MC2.)
One thought on the calendar point is that we are mistaken if thinking of January as the start of the year for them. Unless im mistaken (totallly possible) the Hebrew calendar year starts closer to April. Would have to go and research to confirm of course, not going to do it right now though
I great up thinking Book of Mormon lands are in Mesoamerica but had major questions like: virtually no knowledge of metallurgy, almost entirely built with stone and the Maya language has nothing to do with Hebrew, or any other known language. I watched Wayne May some 15 years ago and it all made perfect sense. Since then, I've studied a lot and have traveled throughout Ohio and Western New York, and Maya ruins in Mexico and Central America, and what Joseph Smith testified and it's no question, Book of Mormon lands are in the U.S., where Neville says they are.
Ok, So all the prophets seers and revelators for over a hundred years that taught and produced art, teachings, and materials depicting mesoamerica as the location of the Book of Mormon were wrong?
The more I study the Ojibwe the more parallels I see with Book of Mormon people. Even Adam-Ondi-Ahman has an Ojibwe translation! I put up a presentation on that translation yesterday.
Be careful with parallelism. It is not convergences which are a better standard of determining past. Even Nibley got caught up into the fanatic implications that come from just paralleling.
@@daleclark7127 yeah I get that, at the same time it doesn’t justify ignoring connections and parallels. I think a genuine understanding comes from a love and appreciation and an answer doesn’t come without the question first. If I see Adaam Ondamon in the language of a people who have similar oral history as scripture, I am not going to ignore and think “If it’s significant, Scripture Central, the Church, or a scholar will tell me.”
So if your theory is correct, DNA studies of living Ojibwe people should indicate Hebrew/Semitic admixture in their ancestral DNA profiles during "Book of Mormon times," right?
@@randyjordan5521 they do via Haplogroup X. Scientist claim that the connection comes from an Ice bridge but it is in primarily the Great Lakes Adena and Hopewell which exist in Ojibwe and Algonquin/Anishinabee tribes. There is no DNA chain of migration unless it were by boat. And the 100,000 year migration theory is based on how long it takes a monkey to become a man.
I don't understand why there cannot be two places called Cumorah, in the Book of Mormon and even in our early pioneer history it was common to name people and places after previous people and places. The Lamanite Jerusalem is one example: "1 Now when Ammon and his brethren separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers’ nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon." (Alma w1:1)
At about 1:44:40 there is discussion about the fact that Grover is telling the Murph that the map showing the strongest shaking was located in the center of the NMSZ and farther away was less severe shaking and eventually no perceived shaking. However, you're looking at a reconstruction of the 1811-12 earthquakes based on newspaper and journal accounts of people who lived through the earthquakes spanning several months. Who knows how powerful the 34 AD quake actually was compared to today or 1811-1812? Many think the quake of 1811-1812 was an M7 or M8. Apparently, the Moment Magnitude scale has replaced the old Richter scale. What if it was an M12 or M15 or M20? If so, people 500 to 1000 miles away might have experienced an M7-M9. There was also discussion between Neville and Murph about WHEN Christ appeared in 3 Nephi. Elders James E. Talmadge and Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed on how long after the resurrection did Christ appear in America. One said it was a year and the other was soon after the Jerusalem resurrection and ministry (about 40 days). 3 Nephi 10:18 states, 18 And it came to pass that in the ending of the thirty and fourth year, behold, I will show unto you that the people of Nephi who were spared, and also those who had been called Lamanites, who had been spared, did have great favors shown unto them, and great blessings poured out upon their heads, insomuch that *****soon after the ascension of Christ into heaven he did truly manifest himself unto them--***** 3 Nephi 11:1 states, 1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place. This verse (combined with 3 Nephi 10:18) strongly suggests that the visit of Christ to America happened soon after the resurrection. Otherwise, the multitude gathered at the temple in the land of Bountiful would NOT be marveling and wondering showing one with another about "the great and marvelous change which had taken place." A year later would not make sense. 3 Nephi 8:11-13 states, "11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward. 12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth; 13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough. 14 And many great and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate. 15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain. 16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away. 17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth. 18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land. 19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease-for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours-and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land. 20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness; 21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all; 22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land. 23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them." I believe they couldn't start a fire because of low oxygen levels from gases coming out of the earth. Normal oxygen levels are 21%. About 16% is necessary for combustion. About 19.5% is necessary to breathe. Did argon of carbon dioxide or some other gas dissipate or displace the oxygen low enough to stop combustion and still allow people to breathe?
I prefer the Heartland Model, but with Hemispheric consequences. Much of the Central and South American evidences could simply have been influences instead, or other people brought to the continent in general. Much of the Mayan Culture also predates the Nephites, as well as post dates them as well. The Hopewell tribes in the Heartland, are perfectly analogous though esp in timeline and architecture, movements northward and their eventual disappearance.
The Hopewells match the Nephites if you agree with Rod Meldrum. It is perfectly fine for the Nephites to have mingled with other groups such as the Maya. Nephis brother Jacob got married and had at least one kid. He couldn't do that with the group he came with and be in compliance with the commandments. His wife had to have come from a native group already here.
I love this discussion. I am deeply in the Heartland camp for the same reasons Jonathan mentions specifically Cumorah, but the truth is, everyone can be wrong (it isn't either or). I can't wait to find out the absolute truth probably after I die. One issue that I have with all these discussions is the same I have with critics regarding the parting of the Red Sea or other miraculous things that have occurred in nature. When the discussion turns to New Madrid earthquakes vs earthquakes and volcanoes in Mesoamerica, I think it is really irrelevant and ignores God's power to think that we need evidence that a great catastrophe has happened in North America in modern times that we can relate to the destruction followed by the 3 days of darkness in the Book of Mormon. Saying for example that the scope would not be big enough based on modern history, or that an earthquake couldn't lead to extended days of darkness is missing the main point. The fact is, if God wanted to make three days of darkness for everyone in all of North America or the world for that matter, He could and we don't need to know how. If he wanted to selectively submerge cities and cover them with dirt or raise mountains, He could and He could using nature to do it. We have absolutely no proof that the catastrophe in the BoM happened the same way as the Madrid earthquakes, so the Madrid quakes are not proof of anything. To me, it is all way to speculative to bring it up at all. It's the same as explaining two days and a night in light. Even Book of Mormon Central says there is no way to determine How God made night into day, before discussing possible ways He might have done it. It might help people's faith, but faith should be in God and not in logic alone. Just like the Red Sea, we either believe or we don't that God is all powerful. Trying to prove the Red Sea parted or it is possible to part by normal occurrences in nature is totally and completely irrelevant. All things are possible for God, and He could do it once or hundreds of times if He wanted to.
I would have responded to the question about volcanoes by saying something like: Volcanoes is a plausible way God achieved 3 days of darkness even though volcanoes are never mentioned in the BoM, but to clarify, are you suggesting that is the only way? The response has to be of course not. So then I would say, so it really is not evidence that the BoM occurred in Mesoamerica.
Actually that wiki page is indicating the Early Woodland time period, not the time period of the Adena existence. The Adena did exist in the latter part of the time period. Also I listed the academic source for the Adena, but unfortunately it did not have an online link, so I just included wiki as it had a discussion of the topic, not as an academic source.
At about 1:40:00 Murph is talking about the fact that there was more damage in the land Northward. How can that be if the New Madrid Seismic Zone is in the Land Southward? That is an easy one. About the time Hagoth (56 BC) was building his ships and people were migrating to the land northward to escape all the wars, there was no lumber/trees in the land of desolation (Michigan) so lumber was shipped in for building structures and they also built with cement (likely lathe and plaster or wattle and daub--NOT concrete--49 BC). There were more structures in the land northward so there was more damage from powerful earthquakes. People in the land southward were living in tents so there would be little damage if their tents fell over. Experts have compared earthquakes from California with NMSZ. Similar sized earthquakes spread farther in the NMSZ than California earthquakes. Also, look at the 1981 discovery of the 1,700-mile crack across America from Idaho to the southern Appalachians that intersects a NMSZ fault that extends up to the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence Seaway.
Great episode: one critique, the Lamanites were instructed in writing, and the people of Nephi knew writing to the extent that they hoisted titles of liberty across the land… Here’s where the priests of Noah taught the Lamanites writing: Moriah 24: 4 And he appointed teachers of the brethren of Amulon in every land which was possessed by his people; and thus the language of Nephi began to be taught among all the people of the Lamanites. 5 And they were a people friendly one with another; nevertheless they knew not God; neither did the brethren of Amulon teach them anything concerning the Lord their God, neither the law of Moses; nor did they teach them the words of Abinadi; 6 But they taught them that they should keep their record, and that they might write one to another. 7 And thus the Lamanites began to increase in riches, and began to trade one with another and wax great, and began to be a cunning and a wise people, as to the wisdom of the world, yea, a very cunning people, delighting in all manner of wickedness and plunder, except it were among their own brethren.
57:00 The Lamanites were mainly naked except for the loins covering. This suggested a warmer climate. However, during the Nephite period, North America was a lot warmer than today. There was a global weather pattern change around 1200 AD. Wayne May picked up on this; watch a few minutes of this clip th-cam.com/video/9ONZJaRCVww/w-d-xo.html
Wayne May reported that parrot bones are found as far north as the Great Lakes indicating that the weather was much warmer in the heartland area. The parrots now are largely found in Florida.
Well, we know that parrots are a real animal that has existed for millions of years in the Americas. What we do NOT find in the Americas are bones of animals which are mentioned in the Book of Mormon such as domesticated horses or elephants.
@@randyjordan5521 when you have just bones to look at, how do you tell the difference between the mammoth and elephant? What about the horses at Labrea Tar pits?
@@randyjordan5521we have mastodons 4000 years ago - Jaredite timeline. Also horse remains now. Lots of evidence. Was just on a National Geographic site that claimed mastodons were here as late as 1750 BC.
@@rconger24 Archaeologists know the differences in the bones. We know that prehistoric Americans hunted mastodons because of spear wounds found in remains. "The fossils found here all date to the mid to late Pliocene, or about 4 to 3 million years ago. Although the mastodon has been around since then, mammoths didn’t arrive in North America until much later, during the Pleistocene ice ages. Mastodons did co-exist in many places with mammoths, but all of North America’s proboscideans went extinct by around 10,500 years ago."---National Park Service The BOM specifically states that elephants were "useful to man." There were no domesticated, modern elephants in prehistoric America, and no evidence of modern, domesticated horses either. The first domesticated horses were brought to the Americas by the Spaniards shortly after Columbus. If Pre-Columbian natives had had horses in 400 AD, they would have still had them when the Spaniards arrived.
@@randyjordan5521elephants or mammoth have been found from Florida. The question is timing. Mammoth DNA in the soil puts them at 4000 bc, the time of the Jeradites.
What are you talking about? The BOM mentions wilderness all over the place. There is no word in Biblical Hebrew or ancient Egyptian for jungle so wilderness works great. There isn't one for volcano either. "Great storm" is certainly an appropriate term for a volcanic eruption.
There is no physical evidence to show that BOM events occurred anywhere, so the Heartland vs. MesoAmerica debate is a moo point. Like, a cow's opinion.
@@stever808 Great! So give us a list of non-Mormon scholars who agree that the Book of Mormon is an authentic record of Hebrew-descended people who lived in the Americas before Columbus. If the evidence to support the BOM story is "overwhelming" as you assert, there wouldn't be these two groups of BOM believers conjecturing about two completely different possible locales where the events took place that are thousands of miles away from each other. To illustrate the BOM's believabilty problem, imagine if there was a group of people who theorize that the Mayan civilization existed in the Great Lakes region.
@@jerrygrover8992Right, Jerry, wilderness = jungle, precisely where all the new discoveries of ancient civilizations are being found. Also precisely where mesos expect an uninhabited wilderness, as B of M describes. Ooophhh...scary wilderness, don't go there. Ya gotta move it to the Atacama cuz the book only mentions rain, like maybe, twice in 2000 years.😅
Ezra Taft Benson in his Oct 1979 General Conference talk specifically states “America is a place of many great events. Here is where Adam dwelt, where the Garden of Eden was located. America was the place of former civilizations, including Adam’s, the Jaredites’, and Nephites’. America is also the place where God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith, inaugurating the last gospel dispensation on earth before the Savior’s second coming.”
I’m tired of the argument used by meso advocates that Columbus never set foot in North America. On the other hand I do not appreciate the heartlanders trying to point to John Cabot as the figure in Nephi’s vision, that was wrought upon by the power of God to cross the many waters 1 Nephi 13:12. John Cabot could only make that journey because of what Columbus did. The story of Christopher Columbus is nothing short of miraculous. I encourage everyone who has not undertaken a deep study of the life of Columbus to do so. He was prepared from his youth, and his life was spared time and time again, and his persistence in following the compelling prompting of the Spirit allowed him to unlock the mystery of the seas. Mind you. What he did is tantamount to you or I successfully making a trip to Mars. Columbus is the man in Nephi’s vision. He opened the way for others who did make it to the promised land (North America). One Cumorah! Let’s stay with the words of Joseph and Oliver.
3 Ne 7 talks about King Jacob fleeing to the "northernmost part of the land,". But I agree that with hastily built city built with thatch roofs and lit with oil lamps or candles; any mild shaking could cause the city to burn down per 3 Ne 9:9.
May I ask why you don’t speak of the “whole face of the land was changed, cities sunk, etc., which the Book of Mormon speaks of? Wouldn’t the land be very different today and how can they be compared?
I agree with Jerry Grover, the script is an abridgment of many scripts and time periods and the latest rendition which would include a combination of relevant writing styles. I would suspect there were Maya influences. The Maya influence Jerry refers to are minimal and numerical. As if it were easier to use those numbers. It’s the same reason Nephi utilized Egyptian script with Hebrew language. North Americans were forced into an oral history constantly fleeing. They did use birch bark scrolls and hid them. In the past 400 years they have lost and are relearning their old ways. Their worship of God refers to “The Great Spirit” a name King Lamoni uses and Joseph Smith uses while teaching the Lamanite as he refers to it, purely with the Algonquin Tribes. They were pushed North into Canada and started returning in 950 AD. That and their blood is literally the only DNA connected to Israel and “lost tribes.”
I am an associate editor for a major medical journal. I seek out peer reviewers every day. Unfortunately, many peer reviewers look only at the value of an article from their own opinions. They are highly critical of the smallest flaws in those articles they think are not in agreement with their ideas. They fail to see flaws in articles that support their views. The entire peer review process is very flawed in that discourages thinking outside the box. History is filled with examples of traditional thinkers trying to prevent new ideas from being explored. I recommend Rupert Sheldrake’s book ,”The Science Delusion.” Jonathan Neville might think of titling his next book, “The MTC Delusion.”
As far as the Bernhisel document, if it did represent Joseph's words and he said it was accurate, that's still pretty vague. Why do we assume that he was referring to Nephites in Meosamerica? Remember the Book of Mormon details two main civilizations and the original Jaredite civilization was upon the Americas for a period that was longer than the Nephites. If you look at other civilizations throughout history, there are always tribes that break off. The Jaredites had many wars and factions throughout their history, and I think it's possible, perhaps probable, that people migrated further south over the course of generations and founded civlizations far removed from North America and when the final Jaredite civilization collapsed it would have made no impact on remnant breakoffs that were forgotten about generations ago and were separated by thousands of miles. Joseph was aware of the Jaredites and for all we know, he had them in mind when he read Bernhisel's books.
Joseph Smith stated that the Jaredites were the first humans to occupy the Americas after the Great Flood. Therefore, there were no "pre-Book of Mormon people" living there when the Jaredites arrived. That means that if the BOM and LDS doctrine overall are true, all native Americans should have DNA that is closely related to Semitic/Hebrew people who lived in the Middle East about 4000 years ago.
@@randyjordan5521 What does Jaredit DNA look like? Jaredites were pre-Abrahamic, and date back to the tower of Babel and the same civilization that all of modern humanity trace back to. How do we know that Jaredites didn't share common genetics with those that went off to inhabit East Asia?
I am a convert to the Church, not from America. I was groomed by the paintings of South American imageries illustrating Book of Mormon scenes but somewhere somehow I never felt a clear connection. I always felt that the final battle was in New York. I didn't have all this documentation used as evidence. Still, it was rather a raw feeling that the Book of Mormon story must have happened in a relatively limited region in North America. Years ago I came across the history of the Hopewell and Adenas (independently from any church discussions) and I immediately felt they have to do with the Book of Mormon. Later on, I learned about the existence of "heartlanders".
@@vannersp Can you name any non-Mormon scholars who agree that a culture of hundreds of thousands of Hebrew/Semitic people lived in North America before Columbus?
The letter of South America only states that the Book was correct for "this" country, the writings of someone that wrote about his findings of South America . Not taking precedence over what Joseph Smith already stated to his trusted friends and family that Cumora was actually in New York and that the Nephite people inhabited North America.
Rod Meldrum and Wayne May have shown many artifacts that show two groups of people at war. Also menorah 's and hebrew writing showing Christ. Take a look at what eject have.
As a converted believer in the Heartland Model of the Book of Mormon (BOM), I find myself encountering a curious phenomenon whenever I delve into the scriptures. Despite my conviction in the Heartland Model, my mind persistently envisions the Mesoamerican setting for the Nephites' travels. It's as though my subconscious defaults to that location, even though I actively strive to embrace the Heartland Model. Reflecting on this experience, I empathize with proponents of the Mesoamerican theory. If my mind, as a believer in the Heartland Model, instinctively gravitates towards Mesoamerica, it elucidates the challenge faced by those who adhere to the Mesoamerican perspective. It underscores the deeply ingrained nature of our preconceptions and the difficulty in shifting paradigms, even when presented with compelling evidence. Nevertheless, my commitment to the Heartland Model remains steadfast. I recognize the importance of continually challenging my own assumptions and biases, and I encourage others to do the same in their pursuit of truth and understanding. Let us approach the study of the Book of Mormon with open minds and hearts, seeking enlightenment and unity in our shared quest for spiritual insight.
The two primary supports for the MesoAmerican model are a) it's the only location in the western hemisphere which contains large cities as described in the BOM and date roughly from BOM times and b) MesoAmerica is the only region that had any kind of written language. Based on the BOM's many remarks about its people's culture, religion, and a written language, if all of that happened in the Great Lakes region, there should be ample artifacts of that scattered all over the area, just as there are stone stele all over MesoAmerica which tells Mayan history. Even if the "Lamanites" deteriorated into a savage, primitive culture, artifacts of the highly advanced and literate "Nephite" culture should still be found. For example, BOM apologists cite the "NHM" carving found in Yemen as evidence of the book's authenticity. Considering that the BOM people allegedly lived in the Americas for 1000 years, and grew into a population of hundreds of thousands, then there should be a million times more artifacts somewhere in the Americas than that single stone carving in Yemen.
You should look at the Scientific American article, “A Major Earthquake Zone on the Mississippi” by Arch C Johnson from 1982. A very informative study/article written before this debate started. Is a look at fault lines earthquakes by a scientist that has no dog in the fight. I recommend this because the thought occurred to me that the comparison on volcanoes/earthquakes in Central America and/or North America to 3Nephi is that there are Volcanoes and Earthquakes in both locations. If I recall correctly the above article will do the same and SA has a 2010 article that would conclude that the far reaching breadth of the New Madrid fault should cause all who live in the eastern United States may want to consider this fault in their preparation for calamity even though their are those who would present evidence that the promised land and Nephite culture is in Guadalajara If New Madrid goes off all us East coasters stand to be in the way regardless of where Nephites threw atel atels
I appreciate the credible, exhaustive research of Jonathan Neville and others. It addresses many unanswered questions, including the “fact” of the Hill Cumorah in NY; two sets of plates, and two messengers, Moroni & Brother Nephi.
"Many scholars have determined that the artifacts are archaeological forgeries. The Michigan Relics are considered to be one of the most elaborate and extensive pseudoarchaeological hoaxes ever perpetrated in American history."---Wikipedia The forgers made copper relics because Michigan contains a large open-pit copper deposit.
@@rconger24 The "Michigan relics", also known as the Soper frauds, were declared to be a hoax shorty after their "discovery". I suggest you google the issue.
On the caractor’s document, he employed a logical fallacy (bandwagon and/or composition). He doesn’t address Jerry’s work specifically, he doesn’t seem to know anything about Jerry’s work on the caractors document. Which is fine, no one is expected to have read everything but he should just say that. Instead he dismisses it because of other opinions and works that are out there (ones that are much shallower in their level of research). You have to evaluate each work based on its own merits. The amount of work and professionalism and scholarly discipline that Jerry put into that book is impressive and deserves to be taken seriously whether he got every word of his translation right or not.
While I do appreciate the stuff that Jerry is doing, I do feel like his work starts with a predetermined conclusion of a Mesoamerican setting, and then works backwards to support that, regardless of how much sense it makes. And I feel like that compromises lots of his conclusions. Like Neville says, in order to believe in a Mesoamerican setting, you have to dismiss, handwave, twist meaning or ignore so many things that have been said by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey.
Most of Jerry's work is based on Egyptian characters, I believe he does make a solid point on those characters. He uses some Mayan glyphs and shows the translation is similar to some Book of Mormon names. Wayne may does the same with the Mississippi. However, neither is Hebrew, but the translations are similar.
He didn't address Jerry's work specifically because he's probably not researched it. I don't know how many times I've gone through interpretations of the Book of Revelation. I've heard theories all over the place, pre-millennial, post millennial, this means that, that means this. I've heard so much stuff that if someone tries to talk to me about it I just kind of tune it out. He talks the same way about the caractors document. He's heard so many different interpretations that they all just kind of bleed together. Unless it's something you're very much invested in, at some point you just stop caring about what new theory is introduced. It's not a statement of Jerry's work, it's a statement of how many times he's gone over the same stuff.
Good comment, but it's not a logical fallacy to point out that each of the various translations starts with an assumption that drives the translation. I could have discussed Jerry's work in more detail in conjunction with the other translations I've seen, but that would require a separate interview. Some people (critics) say the "caractors" are merely altered English characters. Some say they are altered Micmac characters, or Egyptian characters, etc. I've seen different interpretations based on the common assumption that they are Egyptian characters. Every presentation, including Jerry's, is persuasive when viewed by itself, but it's important to recognize initial assumptions. Jerry makes a series of cascading assumptions about what part of the plates the "caractors" were copied from, which is fine, but other people make different assumptions based on the same facts. That's why I'm fine with multiple working hypotheses. Plus, people tend to see what they want to see (bias confirmation). Jerry's Mesoamerican bias is evident in his introduction: "I ran across potential representations of some of the Caractors glyphs in Mesoamerican settings.... After 1,000 years of assimilation in Mesoamerica, the Nephites were no doubt speaking some Mesoamerican languages that may have contained some elements of Hebrew and/or Egyptian." Notice how Jerry writes that last sentence as if stating facts. Conflating assumptions and inferences with facts is a persistent problem that leads to confusion and, yes, contention. That's why I focus on clarity first in the FAITH model of analysis. :)
I feel that people are missing the obvious. A separation of king an prophet fits the heartland model with the Native Americans who have a chief and a medicine man. A king over a king fits the meso-american model. Both forms of government are represented in the Book of Mormon. If they traveled by boat this would be that difficult. We already have evidence that people from the Yucatan peninsula had contact with Georgia. It's not either or it's what happened where.
@@micahjoelm definitely. I'm just saying that there's a pattern. The book of Mormon is an abridgement of the story of the Nephites not a complete record of every person to walk the Americas. Our preconceived notions distort the way we understand the text. And cultures change over time. We can't know with certainty where the evening in the book of Mormon happened, we can only say what corolates and what doesn't based on our understanding of the text and cultures. Its possible that righteous Lamanites lived after the Nephites destruction. Maybe they moved around moved, decided or influence cultures around them.
3 Nephi is pretty clear that "the voice" was heard just at the end of the three days of darkness, and Jesus immediately followed. No way could that be interpreted 8 months or a year.
And if you want to know what happened those three days, just consider the eclipse tracks all over you tube. Alif Tav A and X. I wonder what would happen if the Cascadia subduction zone set off Mt st. Helen's and her sisters, and the Texas volcanic zone went off, and the New Madrid ALL HIT AT ONCE. Do you think that might give such destruction as 3 Nephi? Because I do.
Why do we think that Prophets would know either way? I think if any have ever commented on it they are just speaking with their scholar mind like Bruce R. McConkie did so much and was wrong so many times. That isn't something the Lord would use their Revelatory authority to reveal. It isn't essential to our salvation and I don't believe the Lord would reveal it to a modern day seer. That argument doesn't hold any weight for me.
The prophets? Which ones? To me the most important is Joseph and Oliver. They were there, saw it (Cumorah and the surroundings) and testified in no uncertain terms about where it is and what happened there. Let's not overlook th other very relevant ones: Moroni and at least one of the Three Nephites. They testified about Cumorah. I believe them, it wasn't intellectual opinion, it was fact and first hand experience. If not, then Joseph 's veracity as a prophet is doubtful.
If we're talking about mid 20th century prophets and beyond, I agree. Unless they've received revelation on the matter then it's merely an intellectual understanding. OTOH, those who were part of Zion's Camp, and particularly those who spoke with ancient American prophets and received revelation on the topic would have a clear understanding of it all. That's why Zelph's mound and Joseph's letters to Emma from Zion's camp are so important in answering this question.
Problem is, if the Book of Mormon people actually lived somewhere, there should be abundant evidence of that huge, highly advanced culture. It shouldn't require faith or trust in Deity to "reveal" it to anyone. More than half of all sites mentioned in the Bible have been found and correctly identified. Archaelogists have found artifacts of a small, short-lived, 1000-year-old Viking settlement in Newfoundland. So if those hundreds of thousands of Book of Mormon people lived in the Americas for 1000 years, there should be a million times more evidence which would confirm their existence than there is for that short-lived Viking community.
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Which North American Indian tribe will fulfill this prophecy?
Destruction and voice from heaven took place in the first month on the 34th day (14th day and Passover for Jerusalem) The visit from Christ at the temple took place at the end of the 34th year (Tabernacles) this would explain why a large portion of the people were already at the temple
Dust settles quickly sure, but the New Madrid Earthquakes could last for months, enabling earthquake smog to potentially last for months because it would be getting replenished in the air as it is settling.
Why do you say that? And why do heartlanders say the heartland makes sense but never elaborate on WHY they think it makes sense. To me it doesn't make sense at all. The geography is totally off from what is described in Alma 22, the heartlanders always fall back on the whole face of the land changing at the crucifixion without reading that in detail and see Mormon is talking about the land northward. The typical pick for heartland Zarahemla is across the Mississippi from Nauvoo and it doesn't seem that Heartlanders know that area was already calked "Zarahemla" in 1839, they seem to forget names can be used as memorials to names of other cities, Jerusalem being one example, Bountiful being another. The only thing that makes sense to me when talking to heartlanders is they read books by Neville and Meldrum more than they read the Book of Mormon itself, just as Evangelicals read Bible commentaries more than the Bible itself.
If we are to be completely honest, without doing mental gymnastics, both meso and heartland areas are too big. It was a much smaller area. Most likely on an isthmus in New England
The problem with the scientific disputes to the heartland model is that our science is incredibly flawed. The widely accepted genetic aging model is off by degrees of magnitude (we know common ancestry is 6000 years ago, not 65,000 or earlier), carbon dating makes poor assumptions on the consistency of C14 generation, and global warming theory suggests the past is consistently cooler than the present, when genuine evidence shows the earth was hotter in the medieval warm period, and even hotter a millennium previous to that. The medieval warm period was warm enough to allow grapes to be grown in Scotland. Imagine what it would have been like in the Book of Mormon times.
Because they are normal distances that many civilizations, including the native Americans that we already know lived in that area, have lived in. An interconnected civilization spanning the entire length of North and South America doesn't make sense. A civilization existing in the midwest of the uinited states or the yucatan area of mexico makes sense.
By virtue of 3 Nephi 16 I’m certain that the Savior visited many many people throughout the world and that the Nephites were simply one, relatively “small” group of people.
I always understood that after all of the Nephites were killed off, Moroni, in an effort to avoid the Laminates, roamed the land northward for 40 years, walked up to New York, passing through Utah where he dedicated the temple sites St. George, Manti, etc (and more than likely dedicated the Salt Lake Valley and temple site) before making his way to New York where he buried the plates. Maybe he named that hill Cumorah because it is the name given to hills where records are kept. Why couldn't he name a second hill by the same name?
Snow is mentioned in the Book of Mormon: 1 Nephi 11:8 8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.
The Jaredites reserved the lands south predominantly for hunting and gathering. The land of Desolation would have been the primary population center of the Jaredites. The destruction of the Jaredites would have been the destruction of the population centers bringing an end to the Jaredites as a single nation, not necessarily an end to its entire population.
The Title of Liberty proves that not only did they have writing, but that at a basic level they also had literacy… the Title was carried with them everywhere they went for all the people to see, which implies that the general population could both read and write, if this is not true, then the entire exercise of creating it, and then carrying it with them everywhere they went was moot, and nonsensical Just an observation…
All it proves is that some people were literate. Throughout history, in just about any "literate" civilization, the vast majority of people were not literate. Mass literacy is a very modern phenomenon. It's not surprising that elite military generals and the priestly class were literate, but it's very unlikely that the average person could read or write.
The years started in spring. The wars weren't in winter. We know this because 3 Nephi 8:5 places Christ's death in the FIRST month of the year, which we know from the Bible occurred in spring at Passover.
Actually the Adena did not start until 500 BC, it was not a confusion with the Hopewell. This is a well known and verified fact (Ancient North America, 2019, Fagan, pg 251). Also on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adena_culture. That's a big problem, the Heartland doesn't have a Jaredite culture center with a proper chronology. While Jonathan loves to deflect any argument against his theories as "confirmation bias" , there are just certain problems with the model that have nothing to do with confirmation bias.
Then who were the people that were in that area the previous thousand+ years? There's lots of evidence for a large, advanced civilisation in the eastern half of North America that exceeds the Egyptians covering the same time period.
@@vannersp That's true, but there's no DNA evidence which shows admixture of Hebrew/Semitic people introduced into North American tribes during "Book Of Mormon times." Also no evidence of Hebrew or Christian culture or worship as late as 400 AD. And of course, according to the LDS doctrine of the literal global flood, as well as Joseph Smith's own statements, there were no "non-Book of Mormon people" in the Americas before the "Jaredites."
Must be super weird to watch someone talk about you on a podcast 😂. For what it is worth, I think you are the most interesting and effective “meso guy” around. However, a suggestion: Maybe you should talk to Jonathan Neville about it rather than filtering your questions through this interviewer? Wouldn’t that be more effective? Not only would you be able to push back in real time, but also I think a lot of viewers have the impression that you (and others) get the privilege of feeding your questions to the interviewer to ask Brother Neville and he doesn’t get the same opportunity to give questions to you. Give the people what they want-a conversation with the both of you! Separate issue, but your “caracters” document translation is super interesting and persuasive, and I don’t think Brother Neville is familiar with it. I think it would be very interesting to talk about what you have seen with the dates, etc.
@@vannersp "There's lots of evidence for a large, advanced civilisation in the eastern half of North America that exceeds the Egyptians covering the same time period." What evidence in that area shows that civilization to be the same people as described in the Book of Mormon?
Jerry, here is a another wikipedia's link that contradicts wikipedia on the Adena timeline. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Adena_culture_sites Point is don't cited wikipedia as your source. Academics should already know that
From what I learned about the eastern tribes of the United States they didn't use snow shoes. They wore animal skins with the fur intact around the feet. Why do some people act like snow is some sort of smoking gun when native tribes have been living in the snow and thriving for thousands of years? They fought against George Washington in the snow during the Indian wars. During a period that historians call the mini ice age.
25:37 Exactly! All these geography models "work" because the text is so vague as to not really say anything at all. This is the same way the Meso-American model fits these other cultures into the Book of Mormon despite there being no actual evidence to connect Lehite cultures with the known cultures that were extant at the time.
1:11:32 If the caractors are legit, why are they hand written and not just a rubbing? That would be easier, faster, and way more accurate. Plus, it would be tangible evidence of real golden plates.
1:20:04 Not even the Meso-American civilizations would have been able to support the massive wars described in the text. The census point is just nonsense. We can use the numbers or visual imagery of the wars to get a sense of how massive the wars are described to have been. Even using the force sizes described in Mormon, the logistical framework needed to support those armies would be MASSIVE.
1:33:42 Jerry Grover has to reinterpret and manipulate the text to make the volcano model work. A volcano isn't a great model when prodded, especially as it cannot explain how exceedingly dry wood would not catch fire. The idea of wailing and crying in ash so thick not even the least bit of sunlight could break through is also a bit absurd. Breathing ash is generally bad for health.
Where are all the roads that these armies traveled on. Could it be that it’s all just made up?🤔 We still have some of the roads that the Roman Empire traveled on.
Not sure who this Podcaster is...but he clearly has not done any legitimate research into Book of Mormon Archeology...all Heartland research is based on NON Mormon scholarship. Whereas the so called meso theories are only supported by shoddy lds scholarship (embarrasingly) from BYU based on errant RLDS theories from 100+ years ago, trying to force the Book of Mormon onto this setting then that...
For the life of me I can’t understand how this awful narrative and explanation of the Heartland theory is even still entertained. They use wide assumptions that are only understood when you put a square peg in a round hole. Using tidbits of historical utterances that we have recorded are a very bad reasons alone to surmise the geography of the Book of Mormon. These aren’t all first hand and with older history there are nuances and gaps. This narrative that “Joseph knew” is really problematic and creates the first problem of the Heartland theory since if he knew our leaders today say opposite. They have been spreading their deflections for years. Also, the geology, language, large systems of infrastructure to meet the requirements isn’t there in the Heartland. Bad science and the implication our current leaders are ignorant compared to the Heartland folks is the biggest issue. I was once a Heartland follower until you peal apart the narrative and see the bad apologetics used it is clear. Bad apologetics create more distrust and is more harmful to the Saints faith and to outsiders. Leaders in the past weren’t giving their revelatory opinion it is just their opinion. So maddening that Neville and Meldrum keep this up and actually are the ones that are creating the “contention” they always bemoan are coming from those who actually do respect our leaders and use good scholarship. Also, where did Columbus land? In the promise land and it wasn’t in the Heartland. But, facts don’t even matter to some Heartland folks.
Mesoamerican model supporters 2 Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. 30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.
Seriously? Please don’t insult the intelligence of others by using a scripture that is just as applicable to one side of the argument as the other. Basically, the implication your making is that anyone who respects scholars and science are the real fools. But, if you accept and believe a narrative that can’t be supported by science and scholars than you are on God’s side and that makes everyone who isn’t fools? This is why those who are so set on a geography of the Book of Mormon and mock others as fools are problematic. Weird you would send something like this since I’m just supporting the current church’s stance. I don’t know what the geography was. It is those that “know” who seem to have this special knowledge. That sounds eerily similar to groups that want to tell the church leaders what the real truths are. Slippery ground indeed. Now if you can’t see the issue here then there really isn’t any reason to have discussions on this. Thanks for the example of what I’m trying to convey on these comments.
@@daleclark7127 after what big academia and big this and big that has done to the world over the past 25-30 years, I don't respect scholars and other pseudointellectuals. I trust farmers, waitresses and someone with a third grade education more than I trust college big brains, so there! Go see if the WEF is hiring academic techno-fascists and other self-appointed bureaucratic psychopaths with connections to the corrupt globalist establishment.
I'd be happy to entertain any actual questions you have. You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings, but they're all generalities. This comment forum might not be the best forum for a detailed discussion, but you can always email me. For "no more contention" we need to start with clarity. For example, why do you ask about Columbus? Where in the Book of Mormon does it mention Columbus by name?
Interesting you would even be entertaining this video. Troll possibly? May be time to reevaluate what your purpose is. And that goes for any of the likes.
“…ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man…?” Moroni 10:27.
The Title of Liberty proves that not only did they have writing, but that at a basic level they also had literacy… the Title was carried with them everywhere they went for all the people to see, which implies that the general population could both read and write, if this is not true, then the entire exercise of creating it, and then carrying it with them everywhere they went was moot, and nonsensical Just an observation…
The Title of Liberty was among the Nephites, The discussion was about whether this literate culture culture extended to the Lamanites such that it would have survived to our times. Many ancient written cultures have disappeared, and the argument is that that is what happened to the Nephite culture of writing.
Murph, having Jonathan on is a great measure of your character and willingness to be open-minded. I can learn from that. I do wish Scripture/Book of Mormon Central would do the same.
Thanks I appreciate you saying that
I agree with you about Murph, but since Murph and others such as Ward Radio, Stick of Joseph, etc., are independent of either side of coin regarding the BofM geographical model discussions they can be comfortable interviewing representatives from both sides of this debate. I can't see Scripture Central, BofM Central, the Interpreter Foundation, FAIRLDS, or other related channels and web sites doing this same type of thing for the following valid reasons. For the same reasons, I cannot see Heartland Model sites presenting material from Mesoamerican theorists:
- There is a very fundamental difference in research methodology between these 2 camps (Heartland and Mesoamerican theories). The Heartland model uses as one of its primary 'evidences' their strongly held opinion that Joseph Smith (and also Oliver Cowdery) were given divine revelation of the BofM geography, particularly the location of the final Nephite battles (near Cumorah of the Book of Mormon text) and the city of Zarahemla. The other model proponents (including the various Mesoamerican theories) have a very different opinion on this. Since the Heartland folks are 100% convinced of this idea, and since it forms a very fundamental part of their theory, to the point of accusing those who disagree with them of "not believing the words of the prophets", I just can't see the 2 groups having any kind of a meaningful discussion on this topic, nor can I see any kind of compatibility between them, which precludes any possibility of including papers, interviews, or discussions on the web sites or channels of either opposing side. This, along with their totally opposing views of what is considered valid scientific 'evidence', makes it virtually impossible for either party to accommodate the other on the same web site or youtube channel, etc.
My main gripe with the Heartland Model folks is this stubborn insistence that Joseph and Oliver "knew" the exact BofM event locations and that those who believe otherwise are somehow 'not as faithful' and those who believe as they do. In other words, they won't accept as a valid model any that don't believe this. The other thing that I don't care for is the use of really flaky science such as the totally nonsensical X mtdna argument which they believe links the native Americans of North America to the Israelites. That argument is just totally wrong on so many levels to the point of absurdity. If it weren't for those 2 glaring foundational methodological issues I think the 2 camps could probably find some level of compatibility.
@@philandrews2860 I think both sides have their fairly solid arguments and their fringy claims. For instance, I think the Mesoamerican idea of two Cumorahs is odd. There's also no mention of Nephites building stone pyramids and such, but we do see Moroni initiating defensive cities with mounds, ditches, and pickets and North America is covered with those in the east. Heartlanders rely on a a lot of sketchy artifacts that were most likely forged, but perhaps some among those are genuine.
I don't think the Heartland model relies on Joseph knowing where the Book of Mormon took place, but I think he knew. Whether he strongly indicated that knowledge to others is debatable. I do think the strongest Heartland evidence is concerning the prophecies about the land and the nation, and the early church sending missionaries to the Lamanites.
While I don't 100% agree with either side, I lean more towards the Nephite lands being in North America. While it's hard to pin down geography, I think that may be due to some potentially catastrophic changes in the land caused by the New Madrid system. The Book of Mormon does state that the whole face of the land became "deformed" and that it astonished people when they saw it. There could have been many shallow inland "seas" (the "Sea of Galillee" is only 6 miles across) that got drained due to this disruption making the geography hard to nail down today. Another main reason is that's where the plates ended up. It makes sense that the plates would be buried near where the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations came to an end as a testament to that effect.
But I do agree that both sides have irreconcilable differences and that neither side is going to present material for the other. Personally, I think the majority of the Native Americans scattered across North and South America were breakoffs of the original Jaredite civlization. I think that the decendants of these remnants account for many of these groups of people in Central and South America.
There may be many other ideas that haven't been considered yet but in the mean time, it's good to see these guys duke it out and defend their thesis.
@@philandrews2860 You are wrong about the dna.
@@philandrews2860 The very fact that there are two camps of Book of Mormon believers who propose that the location for its events are thousand of miles away tells us that there is no evidence in either location to be able to even generalize it. Imagine if there were two groups of people discussing where the Mayans lived, with one group saying Central America and the other saying the Great Lakes area. That's how silly this debate about possible BOM locations is. If there's no evidence in either location, it didn't happen in either location.
In fact, if you go by what is actually written in the BOM, the only possible location is the Middle East, because that's the only place on the planet where Hebrews, horses, and metal tools and weaponry existed in 600 BC.
I love Johnathan Neville!!!❤ It takes honesty and integrity to admit he has changed his mind about Heartland!
Excellent discussion. One point not touched was that the Heartland models have a realistic proposal for how the Lehites came to America, which is around the Cape of Good Hope and across the mid-Atlantic following existing winds and currents the whole way. All Mesoamerican models fail right from the beginning as long as they are based on a trans-Pacific crossing against all prevailing winds and currents.
And the "Phoenicia Rocks" expeditions.
This little mystery could be solved if we could find some evidence of admixture of Hebrew/Semitic DNA into native American tribes that occurred around 600 BC.
Joseph Smith said that they landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien and Joseph F Smith reconfirmed it when he declared that they landed in Chile. Then Joseph Fielding Smith further supports that thought. If you research any sayings and comments from the prophets and apostles, you will discover that all of them place Lehi's landing in South America, on the west coast. The reason that not a single prophet and apostle will not reference the Heartland model is because it's false. The Meso model also is false. There may be some things in each that are true, but there are far too many things that are false in each of them.
Now, the other problem that has now arisen with the Heartland model is that they're basically saying that all of these prophets and apostles are wrong and their own theory is correct. And that right there is basically priestcraft, because these men received revelation pertaining to this subject and are being told they're wrong. Then they try to profit off of their model. And that is priestcraft.
@@TheForgottenMan270 "Joseph Smith said that they landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien and Joseph F Smith reconfirmed it when he declared that they landed in Chile."
Cool! Now all we need is one shred of physical evidence that the "Book of Mormon people" actually existed in that area.
There is no problem with Lehi's family coming from the Pacific side except the heartlanders say so. Heartlanders like to diminish the faith of Mesos but then they fabricate all these issues that they say are scientific impossibility, but Nephi didn't build the ship after the manner of men and he wasn't led by currents, the path they followed was the one the Liahona. So where is your faith heartlanders? What God can't move the winds and the ocean in a way to get them to the promised land except under Africa?
You make up all these things you say are impossible to discredit the meso theories and then you expect us to agree to your pseudoscience when wondering how Zarahemla no longer is surrounded by water on both sides like the Book of Mormon says etc
At its core, the debate between heartland and meso is a question of whether or not you believe that Joseph Smith knew where it all happened.
The reason those two theories exist is because there are no artifacts in either region to show that the Book of Mormon people existed in either of them.
Imagine if one group of people believed that the Mayans existed in Central America, and another group theorized that they lived in the Great Lakes area. The former region would be the correct one, right? Because the evidence exists there to prove it.
But there are no artifacts of those hundreds of thousand of Nephites and Lamanites and their horses and chariots and steel swords and the cities they built which stretched from sea to sea.
I've got to believe Joseph Smith, or
believe nothing.
@@Mikelray-df9my I decided in 1997 to not believe in Joseph Smith. My life has been just fine with that.
@@randyjordan5521 You have contrary comments thoroughly populated all across the thread of this video.
*_Why are you so interested in something you claim to have abandoned_* ?
@@randyjordan5521watch Wayne May’s stuff. Lots of evidence.
Excellent discussion. Jonathan is a reasoned, thoughtful advocate. There's a good spirit about him.
I enjoy your approach as well as Jonathon on this topic. Very welcoming.👍
Thanks
Jonathan did an awesome job answering that barrage of Questions. How many tough questions did you ask Brant and Jerry if any??
I feel like I've asked them questions about mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon
I visited Nauvoo several years ago. When I was asking a senior missionary couple about some mounds that were across the street from our Air BnB, the elder went off on me! He was almost angry as he was telling me how the Heartland model had been debunked by some PhD student. I think it was so upsetting to his wife, she messed up on her weaving demonstration she was showing me. I have to admit that my heart was hurt after his attack.
A day or two later, I ran into some OG Heartlanders doing a friend tour of some mounds in the area and was invited to go with them. I went along and learned a lot and very much enjoyed it. When I told them what had happened with this senior missionary, *they* started going off about how people couldn't see how the Heartland is the truth, etc. I was a little shocked by their response.
My testimony is not based on where I think the BOM took place. BUT, I *do* have to say that I've learned So Much more about what the BOM says, what Joseph Smith taught, AND all about ancient peoples of the US (which were NEVER taught to me in public school)!
If nothing else matters, my knowledge has been increased about actual truths. My testimony of the BOM and of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and the leader of this dispensation has been solidified by my reading and learning about the Heartland model.
(Funny- I never said this when I believed in the Meso-Model/MC2.)
I appreciate the balanced view of this topic. Curiosity and open mindedness is essential to finding truth!
Mormonism with the Murph is such a great channel. The Murph always asks all the best questions so we can get all the answers we are looking for.
Aw thanks so much!
One thought on the calendar point is that we are mistaken if thinking of January as the start of the year for them. Unless im mistaken (totallly possible) the Hebrew calendar year starts closer to April. Would have to go and research to confirm of course, not going to do it right now though
I great up thinking Book of Mormon lands are in Mesoamerica but had major questions like: virtually no knowledge of metallurgy, almost entirely built with stone and the Maya language has nothing to do with Hebrew, or any other known language. I watched Wayne May some 15 years ago and it all made perfect sense. Since then, I've studied a lot and have traveled throughout Ohio and Western New York, and Maya ruins in Mexico and Central America, and what Joseph Smith testified and it's no question, Book of Mormon lands are in the U.S., where Neville says they are.
Ok, So all the prophets seers and revelators for over a hundred years that taught and produced art, teachings, and materials depicting mesoamerica as the location of the Book of Mormon were wrong?
The more I study the Ojibwe the more parallels I see with Book of Mormon people. Even Adam-Ondi-Ahman has an Ojibwe translation! I put up a presentation on that translation yesterday.
Be careful with parallelism. It is not convergences which are a better standard of determining past. Even Nibley got caught up into the fanatic implications that come from just paralleling.
@@daleclark7127 yeah I get that, at the same time it doesn’t justify ignoring connections and parallels. I think a genuine understanding comes from a love and appreciation and an answer doesn’t come without the question first. If I see Adaam Ondamon in the language of a people who have similar oral history as scripture, I am not going to ignore and think “If it’s significant, Scripture Central, the Church, or a scholar will tell me.”
So if your theory is correct, DNA studies of living Ojibwe people should indicate Hebrew/Semitic admixture in their ancestral DNA profiles during "Book of Mormon times," right?
@@randyjordan5521 they do via Haplogroup X. Scientist claim that the connection comes from an Ice bridge but it is in primarily the Great Lakes Adena and Hopewell which exist in Ojibwe and Algonquin/Anishinabee tribes. There is no DNA chain of migration unless it were by boat. And the 100,000 year migration theory is based on how long it takes a monkey to become a man.
@@daleclark7127 Hugh Nibley= Ace Parallelomaniac.
An example of the Nile river being called a "sea" in the scriptures is 2 Nephi 21:15, where the lower Nile is called the "tongue of the Egyptian sea"
I don't understand why there cannot be two places called Cumorah, in the Book of Mormon and even in our early pioneer history it was common to name people and places after previous people and places. The Lamanite Jerusalem is one example:
"1 Now when Ammon and his brethren separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers’ nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon." (Alma w1:1)
At about 1:44:40 there is discussion about the fact that Grover is telling the Murph that the map showing the strongest shaking was located in the center of the NMSZ and farther away was less severe shaking and eventually no perceived shaking. However, you're looking at a reconstruction of the 1811-12 earthquakes based on newspaper and journal accounts of people who lived through the earthquakes spanning several months. Who knows how powerful the 34 AD quake actually was compared to today or 1811-1812? Many think the quake of 1811-1812 was an M7 or M8. Apparently, the Moment Magnitude scale has replaced the old Richter scale. What if it was an M12 or M15 or M20? If so, people 500 to 1000 miles away might have experienced an M7-M9.
There was also discussion between Neville and Murph about WHEN Christ appeared in 3 Nephi. Elders James E. Talmadge and Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed on how long after the resurrection did Christ appear in America. One said it was a year and the other was soon after the Jerusalem resurrection and ministry (about 40 days). 3 Nephi 10:18 states,
18 And it came to pass that in the ending of the thirty and fourth year, behold, I will show unto you that the people of Nephi who were spared, and also those who had been called Lamanites, who had been spared, did have great favors shown unto them, and great blessings poured out upon their heads, insomuch that *****soon after the ascension of Christ into heaven he did truly manifest himself unto them--*****
3 Nephi 11:1 states, 1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place.
This verse (combined with 3 Nephi 10:18) strongly suggests that the visit of Christ to America happened soon after the resurrection. Otherwise, the multitude gathered at the temple in the land of Bountiful would NOT be marveling and wondering showing one with another about "the great and marvelous change which had taken place." A year later would not make sense.
3 Nephi 8:11-13 states,
"11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.
12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;
13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.
14 And many great and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.
15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.
16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.
17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.
18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.
19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease-for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours-and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land.
20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness;
21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all;
22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land.
23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them."
I believe they couldn't start a fire because of low oxygen levels from gases coming out of the earth. Normal oxygen levels are 21%. About 16% is necessary for combustion. About 19.5% is necessary to breathe. Did argon of carbon dioxide or some other gas dissipate or displace the oxygen low enough to stop combustion and still allow people to breathe?
I prefer the Heartland Model, but with Hemispheric consequences. Much of the Central and South American evidences could simply have been influences instead, or other people brought to the continent in general. Much of the Mayan Culture also predates the Nephites, as well as post dates them as well. The Hopewell tribes in the Heartland, are perfectly analogous though esp in timeline and architecture, movements northward and their eventual disappearance.
The Hopewells match the Nephites if you agree with Rod Meldrum.
It is perfectly fine for the Nephites to have mingled with other groups such as the Maya. Nephis brother Jacob got married and had at least one kid. He couldn't do that with the group he came with and be in compliance with the commandments. His wife had to have come from a native group already here.
I love this discussion. I am deeply in the Heartland camp for the same reasons Jonathan mentions specifically Cumorah, but the truth is, everyone can be wrong (it isn't either or). I can't wait to find out the absolute truth probably after I die. One issue that I have with all these discussions is the same I have with critics regarding the parting of the Red Sea or other miraculous things that have occurred in nature. When the discussion turns to New Madrid earthquakes vs earthquakes and volcanoes in Mesoamerica, I think it is really irrelevant and ignores God's power to think that we need evidence that a great catastrophe has happened in North America in modern times that we can relate to the destruction followed by the 3 days of darkness in the Book of Mormon. Saying for example that the scope would not be big enough based on modern history, or that an earthquake couldn't lead to extended days of darkness is missing the main point. The fact is, if God wanted to make three days of darkness for everyone in all of North America or the world for that matter, He could and we don't need to know how. If he wanted to selectively submerge cities and cover them with dirt or raise mountains, He could and He could using nature to do it. We have absolutely no proof that the catastrophe in the BoM happened the same way as the Madrid earthquakes, so the Madrid quakes are not proof of anything. To me, it is all way to speculative to bring it up at all. It's the same as explaining two days and a night in light. Even Book of Mormon Central says there is no way to determine How God made night into day, before discussing possible ways He might have done it. It might help people's faith, but faith should be in God and not in logic alone. Just like the Red Sea, we either believe or we don't that God is all powerful. Trying to prove the Red Sea parted or it is possible to part by normal occurrences in nature is totally and completely irrelevant. All things are possible for God, and He could do it once or hundreds of times if He wanted to.
I would have responded to the question about volcanoes by saying something like: Volcanoes is a plausible way God achieved 3 days of darkness even though volcanoes are never mentioned in the BoM, but to clarify, are you suggesting that is the only way? The response has to be of course not. So then I would say, so it really is not evidence that the BoM occurred in Mesoamerica.
Actually that wiki page is indicating the Early Woodland time period, not the time period of the Adena existence. The Adena did exist in the latter part of the time period. Also I listed the academic source for the Adena, but unfortunately it did not have an online link, so I just included wiki as it had a discussion of the topic, not as an academic source.
At about 1:40:00 Murph is talking about the fact that there was more damage in the land Northward. How can that be if the New Madrid Seismic Zone is in the Land Southward? That is an easy one. About the time Hagoth (56 BC) was building his ships and people were migrating to the land northward to escape all the wars, there was no lumber/trees in the land of desolation (Michigan) so lumber was shipped in for building structures and they also built with cement (likely lathe and plaster or wattle and daub--NOT concrete--49 BC). There were more structures in the land northward so there was more damage from powerful earthquakes. People in the land southward were living in tents so there would be little damage if their tents fell over.
Experts have compared earthquakes from California with NMSZ. Similar sized earthquakes spread farther in the NMSZ than California earthquakes. Also, look at the 1981 discovery of the 1,700-mile crack across America from Idaho to the southern Appalachians that intersects a NMSZ fault that extends up to the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence Seaway.
Why are we suggesting a moderate earthquake? The event at the death of Christ I would expect to be extraordinary - maybe a 9 or even higher.
Great episode: one critique, the Lamanites were instructed in writing, and the people of Nephi knew writing to the extent that they hoisted titles of liberty across the land…
Here’s where the priests of Noah taught the Lamanites writing:
Moriah 24: 4 And he appointed teachers of the brethren of Amulon in every land which was possessed by his people; and thus the language of Nephi began to be taught among all the people of the Lamanites.
5 And they were a people friendly one with another; nevertheless they knew not God; neither did the brethren of Amulon teach them anything concerning the Lord their God, neither the law of Moses; nor did they teach them the words of Abinadi;
6 But they taught them that they should keep their record, and that they might write one to another.
7 And thus the Lamanites began to increase in riches, and began to trade one with another and wax great, and began to be a cunning and a wise people, as to the wisdom of the world, yea, a very cunning people, delighting in all manner of wickedness and plunder, except it were among their own brethren.
57:00 The Lamanites were mainly naked except for the loins covering. This suggested a warmer climate. However, during the Nephite period, North America was a lot warmer than today. There was a global weather pattern change around 1200 AD. Wayne May picked up on this; watch a few minutes of this clip
th-cam.com/video/9ONZJaRCVww/w-d-xo.html
Wayne May reported that parrot bones are found as far north as the Great Lakes indicating that the weather was much warmer in the heartland area. The parrots now are largely found in Florida.
Well, we know that parrots are a real animal that has existed for millions of years in the Americas. What we do NOT find in the Americas are bones of animals which are mentioned in the Book of Mormon such as domesticated horses or elephants.
@@randyjordan5521 when you have just bones to look at, how do you tell the difference between the mammoth and elephant?
What about the horses at Labrea Tar pits?
@@randyjordan5521we have mastodons 4000 years ago - Jaredite timeline. Also horse remains now. Lots of evidence. Was just on a National Geographic site that claimed mastodons were here as late as 1750 BC.
@@rconger24 Archaeologists know the differences in the bones. We know that prehistoric Americans hunted mastodons because of spear wounds found in remains.
"The fossils found here all date to the mid to late Pliocene, or about 4 to 3 million years ago. Although the mastodon has been around since then, mammoths didn’t arrive in North America until much later, during the Pleistocene ice ages. Mastodons did co-exist in many places with mammoths, but all of North America’s proboscideans went extinct by around 10,500 years ago."---National Park Service
The BOM specifically states that elephants were "useful to man." There were no domesticated, modern elephants in prehistoric America, and no evidence of modern, domesticated horses either. The first domesticated horses were brought to the Americas by the Spaniards shortly after Columbus. If Pre-Columbian natives had had horses in 400 AD, they would have still had them when the Spaniards arrived.
@@randyjordan5521elephants or mammoth have been found from Florida. The question is timing. Mammoth DNA in the soil puts them at 4000 bc, the time of the Jeradites.
What wall did Samuel the Lamanite stand on ?
M2C guys just realized the B of M doesn't talk about rain and jungles so have concluded it all took place in the Atacama desert. 😮😅
What are you talking about? The BOM mentions wilderness all over the place. There is no word in Biblical Hebrew or ancient Egyptian for jungle so wilderness works great. There isn't one for volcano either. "Great storm" is certainly an appropriate term for a volcanic eruption.
There is no physical evidence to show that BOM events occurred anywhere, so the Heartland vs. MesoAmerica debate is a moo point. Like, a cow's opinion.
@@randyjordan5521you have no idea what you are talking about. The evidence overwhelming. The text itself proves it is what it claims to be.
@@stever808 Great! So give us a list of non-Mormon scholars who agree that the Book of Mormon is an authentic record of Hebrew-descended people who lived in the Americas before Columbus.
If the evidence to support the BOM story is "overwhelming" as you assert, there wouldn't be these two groups of BOM believers conjecturing about two completely different possible locales where the events took place that are thousands of miles away from each other. To illustrate the BOM's believabilty problem, imagine if there was a group of people who theorize that the Mayan civilization existed in the Great Lakes region.
@@jerrygrover8992Right, Jerry, wilderness = jungle, precisely where all the new discoveries of ancient civilizations are being found. Also precisely where mesos expect an uninhabited wilderness, as B of M describes. Ooophhh...scary wilderness, don't go there. Ya gotta move it to the Atacama cuz the book only mentions rain, like maybe, twice in 2000 years.😅
Ezra Taft Benson in his Oct 1979 General Conference talk specifically states “America is a place of many great events. Here is where Adam dwelt, where the Garden of Eden was located. America was the place of former civilizations, including Adam’s, the Jaredites’, and Nephites’. America is also the place where God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith, inaugurating the last gospel dispensation on earth before the Savior’s second coming.”
Brother Jonathon !!
I’m tired of the argument used by meso advocates that Columbus never set foot in North America. On the other hand I do not appreciate the heartlanders trying to point to John Cabot as the figure in Nephi’s vision, that was wrought upon by the power of God to cross the many waters 1 Nephi 13:12.
John Cabot could only make that journey because of what Columbus did. The story of Christopher Columbus is nothing short of miraculous. I encourage everyone who has not undertaken a deep study of the life of Columbus to do so. He was prepared from his youth, and his life was spared time and time again, and his persistence in following the compelling prompting of the Spirit allowed him to unlock the mystery of the seas.
Mind you. What he did is tantamount to you or I successfully making a trip to Mars.
Columbus is the man in Nephi’s vision. He opened the way for others who did make it to the promised land (North America).
One Cumorah! Let’s stay with the words of Joseph and Oliver.
3 Ne 7 talks about King Jacob fleeing to the "northernmost part of the land,". But I agree that with hastily built city built with thatch roofs and lit with oil lamps or candles; any mild shaking could cause the city to burn down per 3 Ne 9:9.
May I ask why you don’t speak of the “whole face of the land was changed, cities sunk, etc., which the Book of Mormon speaks of? Wouldn’t the land be very different today and how can they be compared?
I really enjoyed this interview
Nice job
Thanks for watching
I agree with Jerry Grover, the script is an abridgment of many scripts and time periods and the latest rendition which would include a combination of relevant writing styles. I would suspect there were Maya influences. The Maya influence Jerry refers to are minimal and numerical. As if it were easier to use those numbers. It’s the same reason Nephi utilized Egyptian script with Hebrew language. North Americans were forced into an oral history constantly fleeing. They did use birch bark scrolls and hid them. In the past 400 years they have lost and are relearning their old ways. Their worship of God refers to “The Great Spirit” a name King Lamoni uses and Joseph Smith uses while teaching the Lamanite as he refers to it, purely with the Algonquin Tribes. They were pushed North into Canada and started returning in 950 AD. That and their blood is literally the only DNA connected to Israel and “lost tribes.”
I do not.
I am an associate editor for a major medical journal. I seek out peer reviewers every day. Unfortunately, many peer reviewers look only at the value of an article from their own opinions. They are highly critical of the smallest flaws in those articles they think are not in agreement with their ideas. They fail to see flaws in articles that support their views. The entire peer review process is very flawed in that discourages thinking outside the box. History is filled with examples of traditional thinkers trying to prevent new ideas from being explored. I recommend Rupert Sheldrake’s book ,”The Science Delusion.” Jonathan Neville might think of titling his next book, “The MTC Delusion.”
As far as the Bernhisel document, if it did represent Joseph's words and he said it was accurate, that's still pretty vague. Why do we assume that he was referring to Nephites in Meosamerica? Remember the Book of Mormon details two main civilizations and the original Jaredite civilization was upon the Americas for a period that was longer than the Nephites. If you look at other civilizations throughout history, there are always tribes that break off. The Jaredites had many wars and factions throughout their history, and I think it's possible, perhaps probable, that people migrated further south over the course of generations and founded civlizations far removed from North America and when the final Jaredite civilization collapsed it would have made no impact on remnant breakoffs that were forgotten about generations ago and were separated by thousands of miles.
Joseph was aware of the Jaredites and for all we know, he had them in mind when he read Bernhisel's books.
Joseph Smith stated that the Jaredites were the first humans to occupy the Americas after the Great Flood. Therefore, there were no "pre-Book of Mormon people" living there when the Jaredites arrived. That means that if the BOM and LDS doctrine overall are true, all native Americans should have DNA that is closely related to Semitic/Hebrew people who lived in the Middle East about 4000 years ago.
What happened to their DNA?
@@randyjordan5521 What does Jaredit DNA look like? Jaredites were pre-Abrahamic, and date back to the tower of Babel and the same civilization that all of modern humanity trace back to. How do we know that Jaredites didn't share common genetics with those that went off to inhabit East Asia?
I am a convert to the Church, not from America. I was groomed by the paintings of South American imageries illustrating Book of Mormon scenes but somewhere somehow I never felt a clear connection. I always felt that the final battle was in New York. I didn't have all this documentation used as evidence. Still, it was rather a raw feeling that the Book of Mormon story must have happened in a relatively limited region in North America. Years ago I came across the history of the Hopewell and Adenas (independently from any church discussions) and I immediately felt they have to do with the Book of Mormon. Later on, I learned about the existence of "heartlanders".
Jonathon is absolutely correct. It's Heartland or bust. (That's why my shelf busted).
Why? Heartland is solid, and is increasingly being proved so as time passes.
@@vannersp Can you name any non-Mormon scholars who agree that a culture of hundreds of thousands of Hebrew/Semitic people lived in North America before Columbus?
Excellent content
Where is that platform 9 and 1/2? It has to be close
The letter of South America only states that the Book was correct for "this" country, the writings of someone that wrote about his findings of South America . Not taking precedence over what Joseph Smith already stated to his trusted friends and family that Cumora was actually in New York and that the Nephite people inhabited North America.
Rod Meldrum and Wayne May have shown many artifacts that show two groups of people at war.
Also menorah 's and hebrew writing showing Christ. Take a look at what eject have.
As a converted believer in the Heartland Model of the Book of Mormon (BOM), I find myself encountering a curious phenomenon whenever I delve into the scriptures. Despite my conviction in the Heartland Model, my mind persistently envisions the Mesoamerican setting for the Nephites' travels. It's as though my subconscious defaults to that location, even though I actively strive to embrace the Heartland Model.
Reflecting on this experience, I empathize with proponents of the Mesoamerican theory. If my mind, as a believer in the Heartland Model, instinctively gravitates towards Mesoamerica, it elucidates the challenge faced by those who adhere to the Mesoamerican perspective. It underscores the deeply ingrained nature of our preconceptions and the difficulty in shifting paradigms, even when presented with compelling evidence.
Nevertheless, my commitment to the Heartland Model remains steadfast. I recognize the importance of continually challenging my own assumptions and biases, and I encourage others to do the same in their pursuit of truth and understanding. Let us approach the study of the Book of Mormon with open minds and hearts, seeking enlightenment and unity in our shared quest for spiritual insight.
The two primary supports for the MesoAmerican model are a) it's the only location in the western hemisphere which contains large cities as described in the BOM and date roughly from BOM times and b) MesoAmerica is the only region that had any kind of written language. Based on the BOM's many remarks about its people's culture, religion, and a written language, if all of that happened in the Great Lakes region, there should be ample artifacts of that scattered all over the area, just as there are stone stele all over MesoAmerica which tells Mayan history. Even if the "Lamanites" deteriorated into a savage, primitive culture, artifacts of the highly advanced and literate "Nephite" culture should still be found.
For example, BOM apologists cite the "NHM" carving found in Yemen as evidence of the book's authenticity. Considering that the BOM people allegedly lived in the Americas for 1000 years, and grew into a population of hundreds of thousands, then there should be a million times more artifacts somewhere in the Americas than that single stone carving in Yemen.
It seems logical to me that the Heartland model makes sense from the revelations of prophets and the evidence
You should look at the Scientific American article, “A Major Earthquake Zone on the Mississippi” by Arch C Johnson from 1982. A very informative study/article written before this debate started. Is a look at fault lines earthquakes by a scientist that has no dog in the fight.
I recommend this because the thought occurred to me that the comparison on volcanoes/earthquakes in Central America and/or North America to 3Nephi is that there are Volcanoes and Earthquakes in both locations. If I recall correctly the above article will do the same and SA has a 2010 article that would conclude that the far reaching breadth of the New Madrid fault should cause all who live in the eastern United States may want to consider this fault in their preparation for calamity even though their are those who would present evidence that the promised land and Nephite culture is in Guadalajara If New Madrid goes off all us East coasters stand to be in the way regardless of where Nephites threw atel atels
I appreciate the credible, exhaustive research of Jonathan Neville and others. It addresses many unanswered questions, including the “fact” of the Hill Cumorah in NY; two sets of plates, and two messengers, Moroni & Brother Nephi.
At 1:54:08, Neville incorrectly states that all of the Michigan artifacts were made of Slate or stone. Many were made of copper!
"Many scholars have determined that the artifacts are archaeological forgeries. The Michigan Relics are considered to be one of the most elaborate and extensive pseudoarchaeological hoaxes ever perpetrated in American history."---Wikipedia
The forgers made copper relics because Michigan contains a large open-pit copper deposit.
A majority was on slate. Would he even have time on the program to get into the particulars?
@@rconger24 The "Michigan relics", also known as the Soper frauds, were declared to be a hoax shorty after their "discovery". I suggest you google the issue.
On the caractor’s document, he employed a logical fallacy (bandwagon and/or composition). He doesn’t address Jerry’s work specifically, he doesn’t seem to know anything about Jerry’s work on the caractors document. Which is fine, no one is expected to have read everything but he should just say that. Instead he dismisses it because of other opinions and works that are out there (ones that are much shallower in their level of research). You have to evaluate each work based on its own merits. The amount of work and professionalism and scholarly discipline that Jerry put into that book is impressive and deserves to be taken seriously whether he got every word of his translation right or not.
While I do appreciate the stuff that Jerry is doing, I do feel like his work starts with a predetermined conclusion of a Mesoamerican setting, and then works backwards to support that, regardless of how much sense it makes. And I feel like that compromises lots of his conclusions. Like Neville says, in order to believe in a Mesoamerican setting, you have to dismiss, handwave, twist meaning or ignore so many things that have been said by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey.
Most of Jerry's work is based on Egyptian characters, I believe he does make a solid point on those characters. He uses some Mayan glyphs and shows the translation is similar to some Book of Mormon names. Wayne may does the same with the Mississippi. However, neither is Hebrew, but the translations are similar.
Neville supports all multiple working hypothesis. He's got his own cool stuff to work on.
He didn't address Jerry's work specifically because he's probably not researched it.
I don't know how many times I've gone through interpretations of the Book of Revelation. I've heard theories all over the place, pre-millennial, post millennial, this means that, that means this. I've heard so much stuff that if someone tries to talk to me about it I just kind of tune it out. He talks the same way about the caractors document. He's heard so many different interpretations that they all just kind of bleed together.
Unless it's something you're very much invested in, at some point you just stop caring about what new theory is introduced. It's not a statement of Jerry's work, it's a statement of how many times he's gone over the same stuff.
Good comment, but it's not a logical fallacy to point out that each of the various translations starts with an assumption that drives the translation. I could have discussed Jerry's work in more detail in conjunction with the other translations I've seen, but that would require a separate interview. Some people (critics) say the "caractors" are merely altered English characters. Some say they are altered Micmac characters, or Egyptian characters, etc. I've seen different interpretations based on the common assumption that they are Egyptian characters. Every presentation, including Jerry's, is persuasive when viewed by itself, but it's important to recognize initial assumptions. Jerry makes a series of cascading assumptions about what part of the plates the "caractors" were copied from, which is fine, but other people make different assumptions based on the same facts. That's why I'm fine with multiple working hypotheses. Plus, people tend to see what they want to see (bias confirmation). Jerry's Mesoamerican bias is evident in his introduction: "I ran across potential representations of some of the Caractors glyphs in Mesoamerican settings.... After 1,000 years of assimilation in Mesoamerica, the Nephites were no doubt speaking some Mesoamerican languages that may have contained some elements of Hebrew and/or Egyptian." Notice how Jerry writes that last sentence as if stating facts. Conflating assumptions and inferences with facts is a persistent problem that leads to confusion and, yes, contention. That's why I focus on clarity first in the FAITH model of analysis. :)
I feel that people are missing the obvious. A separation of king an prophet fits the heartland model with the Native Americans who have a chief and a medicine man. A king over a king fits the meso-american model. Both forms of government are represented in the Book of Mormon. If they traveled by boat this would be that difficult. We already have evidence that people from the Yucatan peninsula had contact with Georgia. It's not either or it's what happened where.
@@micahjoelm basically. Chiefs are political rulers. Medicine men are spiritual leaders. These terms seem interchangeable to me.
@@micahjoelm definitely. I'm just saying that there's a pattern. The book of Mormon is an abridgement of the story of the Nephites not a complete record of every person to walk the Americas. Our preconceived notions distort the way we understand the text. And cultures change over time. We can't know with certainty where the evening in the book of Mormon happened, we can only say what corolates and what doesn't based on our understanding of the text and cultures. Its possible that righteous Lamanites lived after the Nephites destruction. Maybe they moved around moved, decided or influence cultures around them.
3 Nephi is pretty clear that "the voice" was heard just at the end of the three days of darkness, and Jesus immediately followed. No way could that be interpreted 8 months or a year.
Very interesting...
And if you want to know what happened those three days, just consider the eclipse tracks all over you tube. Alif Tav A and X. I wonder what would happen if the Cascadia subduction zone set off Mt st. Helen's and her sisters, and the Texas volcanic zone went off, and the New Madrid ALL HIT AT ONCE. Do you think that might give such destruction as 3 Nephi? Because I do.
Why do we think that Prophets would know either way? I think if any have ever commented on it they are just speaking with their scholar mind like Bruce R. McConkie did so much and was wrong so many times. That isn't something the Lord would use their Revelatory authority to reveal. It isn't essential to our salvation and I don't believe the Lord would reveal it to a modern day seer. That argument doesn't hold any weight for me.
If only the Lord would have told the nimrods to boil their water instead
The prophets? Which ones? To me the most important is Joseph and Oliver. They were there, saw it (Cumorah and the surroundings) and testified in no uncertain terms about where it is and what happened there. Let's not overlook th other very relevant ones: Moroni and at least one of the Three Nephites. They testified about Cumorah. I believe them, it wasn't intellectual opinion, it was fact and first hand experience. If not, then Joseph 's veracity as a prophet is doubtful.
If we're talking about mid 20th century prophets and beyond, I agree. Unless they've received revelation on the matter then it's merely an intellectual understanding. OTOH, those who were part of Zion's Camp, and particularly those who spoke with ancient American prophets and received revelation on the topic would have a clear understanding of it all. That's why Zelph's mound and Joseph's letters to Emma from Zion's camp are so important in answering this question.
Problem is, if the Book of Mormon people actually lived somewhere, there should be abundant evidence of that huge, highly advanced culture. It shouldn't require faith or trust in Deity to "reveal" it to anyone. More than half of all sites mentioned in the Bible have been found and correctly identified.
Archaelogists have found artifacts of a small, short-lived, 1000-year-old Viking settlement in Newfoundland. So if those hundreds of thousands of Book of Mormon people lived in the Americas for 1000 years, there should be a million times more evidence which would confirm their existence than there is for that short-lived Viking community.
why havent they excavated further into Zelph mound? I would think that they would want to.
Took place about one year later
The Mississippi wasn't just a river back then it was so wide it could easily have been considered an inland sea.
Evidence?
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Which North American Indian tribe will fulfill this prophecy?
Destruction and voice from heaven took place in the first month on the 34th day
(14th day and Passover for Jerusalem)
The visit from Christ at the temple took place at the end of the 34th year (Tabernacles) this would explain why a large portion of the people were already at the temple
Dust settles quickly sure, but the New Madrid Earthquakes could last for months, enabling earthquake smog to potentially last for months because it would be getting replenished in the air as it is settling.
I personally believe the heartland makes sense Meso never did makes sense
Why do you say that? And why do heartlanders say the heartland makes sense but never elaborate on WHY they think it makes sense. To me it doesn't make sense at all. The geography is totally off from what is described in Alma 22, the heartlanders always fall back on the whole face of the land changing at the crucifixion without reading that in detail and see Mormon is talking about the land northward. The typical pick for heartland Zarahemla is across the Mississippi from Nauvoo and it doesn't seem that Heartlanders know that area was already calked "Zarahemla" in 1839, they seem to forget names can be used as memorials to names of other cities, Jerusalem being one example, Bountiful being another. The only thing that makes sense to me when talking to heartlanders is they read books by Neville and Meldrum more than they read the Book of Mormon itself, just as Evangelicals read Bible commentaries more than the Bible itself.
If we are to be completely honest, without doing mental gymnastics, both meso and heartland areas are too big. It was a much smaller area. Most likely on an isthmus in New England
Re: the caracters document, Mic Mac paddywhack give your Zelph a bone. 😅
I believe the BofM happened from Guatemala, Mexico, USA, and some Canada
The problem with the scientific disputes to the heartland model is that our science is incredibly flawed. The widely accepted genetic aging model is off by degrees of magnitude (we know common ancestry is 6000 years ago, not 65,000 or earlier), carbon dating makes poor assumptions on the consistency of C14 generation, and global warming theory suggests the past is consistently cooler than the present, when genuine evidence shows the earth was hotter in the medieval warm period, and even hotter a millennium previous to that. The medieval warm period was warm enough to allow grapes to be grown in Scotland. Imagine what it would have been like in the Book of Mormon times.
how are these distances any less crazy than the hemispheric model?
Because they are normal distances that many civilizations, including the native Americans that we already know lived in that area, have lived in. An interconnected civilization spanning the entire length of North and South America doesn't make sense. A civilization existing in the midwest of the uinited states or the yucatan area of mexico makes sense.
By virtue of 3 Nephi 16 I’m certain that the Savior visited many many people throughout the world and that the Nephites were simply one, relatively “small” group of people.
I always understood that after all of the Nephites were killed off, Moroni, in an effort to avoid the Laminates, roamed the land northward for 40 years, walked up to New York, passing through Utah where he dedicated the temple sites St. George, Manti, etc (and more than likely dedicated the Salt Lake Valley and temple site) before making his way to New York where he buried the plates. Maybe he named that hill Cumorah because it is the name given to hills where records are kept. Why couldn't he name a second hill by the same name?
Snow is mentioned in the Book of Mormon:
1 Nephi 11:8
8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.
The Jaredites reserved the lands south predominantly for hunting and gathering. The land of Desolation would have been the primary population center of the Jaredites. The destruction of the Jaredites would have been the destruction of the population centers bringing an end to the Jaredites as a single nation, not necessarily an end to its entire population.
The Title of Liberty proves that not only did they have writing, but that at a basic level they also had literacy… the Title was carried with them everywhere they went for all the people to see, which implies that the general population could both read and write, if this is not true, then the entire exercise of creating it, and then carrying it with them everywhere they went was moot, and nonsensical
Just an observation…
All it proves is that some people were literate. Throughout history, in just about any "literate" civilization, the vast majority of people were not literate. Mass literacy is a very modern phenomenon. It's not surprising that elite military generals and the priestly class were literate, but it's very unlikely that the average person could read or write.
The years started in spring. The wars weren't in winter. We know this because 3 Nephi 8:5 places Christ's death in the FIRST month of the year, which we know from the Bible occurred in spring at Passover.
Can't find any documented evidence of the Nile river being called a sea, in the bible or else where.
Maybe in the dead sea scrolls?
@@shanandkyleSau The Nile has always been called a river in the Bible.
I prefer the Delmarva theory
Actually the Adena did not start until 500 BC, it was not a confusion with the Hopewell. This is a well known and verified fact (Ancient North America, 2019, Fagan, pg 251). Also on Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adena_culture. That's a big problem, the Heartland doesn't have a Jaredite culture center with a proper chronology. While Jonathan loves to deflect any argument against his theories as "confirmation bias" , there are just certain problems with the model that have nothing to do with confirmation bias.
Then who were the people that were in that area the previous thousand+ years? There's lots of evidence for a large, advanced civilisation in the eastern half of North America that exceeds the Egyptians covering the same time period.
@@vannersp That's true, but there's no DNA evidence which shows admixture of Hebrew/Semitic people introduced into North American tribes during "Book Of Mormon times." Also no evidence of Hebrew or Christian culture or worship as late as 400 AD.
And of course, according to the LDS doctrine of the literal global flood, as well as Joseph Smith's own statements, there were no "non-Book of Mormon people" in the Americas before the "Jaredites."
Must be super weird to watch someone talk about you on a podcast 😂. For what it is worth, I think you are the most interesting and effective “meso guy” around. However, a suggestion:
Maybe you should talk to Jonathan Neville about it rather than filtering your questions through this interviewer? Wouldn’t that be more effective? Not only would you be able to push back in real time, but also I think a lot of viewers have the impression that you (and others) get the privilege of feeding your questions to the interviewer to ask Brother Neville and he doesn’t get the same opportunity to give questions to you. Give the people what they want-a conversation with the both of you!
Separate issue, but your “caracters” document translation is super interesting and persuasive, and I don’t think Brother Neville is familiar with it. I think it would be very interesting to talk about what you have seen with the dates, etc.
@@vannersp "There's lots of evidence for a large, advanced civilisation in the eastern half of North America that exceeds the Egyptians covering the same time period."
What evidence in that area shows that civilization to be the same people as described in the Book of Mormon?
Jerry, here is a another wikipedia's link that contradicts wikipedia on the Adena timeline. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Adena_culture_sites
Point is don't cited wikipedia as your source. Academics should already know that
Jonathon is really Jonathan Neville.
The Book of Mormon makes 0 hint of cold weather, let alone snow.
Captain Moroni wearing snow shoes? Ah, no.
Lol
Climate was warmer. Lots of info on this
From what I learned about the eastern tribes of the United States they didn't use snow shoes. They wore animal skins with the fur intact around the feet. Why do some people act like snow is some sort of smoking gun when native tribes have been living in the snow and thriving for thousands of years? They fought against George Washington in the snow during the Indian wars. During a period that historians call the mini ice age.
Thomas Edward Lopez Daniel Johnson Michael
All these going to Cumorah... it's for a reason. Maybe that's why it has an empty cave. 1829... that would explain why it wasn't looted.
If the mesoamerica model is correct, why does everyone down there want to leave the so-called "land of promise" and come to America?
Heartland is to faithful models what Spaulding-Rigdon is to critical models.
25:37 Exactly! All these geography models "work" because the text is so vague as to not really say anything at all. This is the same way the Meso-American model fits these other cultures into the Book of Mormon despite there being no actual evidence to connect Lehite cultures with the known cultures that were extant at the time.
57:10 All sorts of anachronisms of omission in the text, I agree. Those are almost more interesting than the included anachronisms.
1:11:32 If the caractors are legit, why are they hand written and not just a rubbing? That would be easier, faster, and way more accurate. Plus, it would be tangible evidence of real golden plates.
1:20:04 Not even the Meso-American civilizations would have been able to support the massive wars described in the text. The census point is just nonsense. We can use the numbers or visual imagery of the wars to get a sense of how massive the wars are described to have been. Even using the force sizes described in Mormon, the logistical framework needed to support those armies would be MASSIVE.
1:33:42 Jerry Grover has to reinterpret and manipulate the text to make the volcano model work. A volcano isn't a great model when prodded, especially as it cannot explain how exceedingly dry wood would not catch fire. The idea of wailing and crying in ash so thick not even the least bit of sunlight could break through is also a bit absurd. Breathing ash is generally bad for health.
Don’t think the archeologists have found them yet then. So far just hunters and gatherers.
2:32:30. That burning in your bosom that you're feeling is simply cognitive dissonance rattling around your brain
Cope
Where are all the roads that these armies traveled on. Could it be that it’s all just made up?🤔 We still have some of the roads that the Roman Empire traveled on.
I think the meso model makes more sense, but I like the heartlanders a lot better.
Not sure who this Podcaster is...but he clearly has not done any legitimate research into Book of Mormon Archeology...all Heartland research is based on NON Mormon scholarship. Whereas the so called meso theories are only supported by shoddy lds scholarship (embarrasingly) from BYU based on errant RLDS theories from 100+ years ago, trying to force the Book of Mormon onto this setting then that...
First
First shall be last...loser. 😅😅😅
You are cool! 😎😎😎
For the life of me I can’t understand how this awful narrative and explanation of the Heartland theory is even still entertained. They use wide assumptions that are only understood when you put a square peg in a round hole. Using tidbits of historical utterances that we have recorded are a very bad reasons alone to surmise the geography of the Book of Mormon. These aren’t all first hand and with older history there are nuances and gaps. This narrative that “Joseph knew” is really problematic and creates the first problem of the Heartland theory since if he knew our leaders today say opposite. They have been spreading their deflections for years. Also, the geology, language, large systems of infrastructure to meet the requirements isn’t there in the Heartland. Bad science and the implication our current leaders are ignorant compared to the Heartland folks is the biggest issue. I was once a Heartland follower until you peal apart the narrative and see the bad apologetics used it is clear. Bad apologetics create more distrust and is more harmful to the Saints faith and to outsiders. Leaders in the past weren’t giving their revelatory opinion it is just their opinion. So maddening that Neville and Meldrum keep this up and actually are the ones that are creating the “contention” they always bemoan are coming from those who actually do respect our leaders and use good scholarship. Also, where did Columbus land? In the promise land and it wasn’t in the Heartland. But, facts don’t even matter to some Heartland folks.
Mesoamerican model supporters
2 Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. 30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.
Seriously? Please don’t insult the intelligence of others by using a scripture that is just as applicable to one side of the argument as the other. Basically, the implication your making is that anyone who respects scholars and science are the real fools. But, if you accept and believe a narrative that can’t be supported by science and scholars than you are on God’s side and that makes everyone who isn’t fools? This is why those who are so set on a geography of the Book of Mormon and mock others as fools are problematic. Weird you would send something like this since I’m just supporting the current church’s stance. I don’t know what the geography was. It is those that “know” who seem to have this special knowledge. That sounds eerily similar to groups that want to tell the church leaders what the real truths are. Slippery ground indeed. Now if you can’t see the issue here then there really isn’t any reason to have discussions on this. Thanks for the example of what I’m trying to convey on these comments.
@@daleclark7127 after what big academia and big this and big that has done to the world over the past 25-30 years, I don't respect scholars and other pseudointellectuals. I trust farmers, waitresses and someone with a third grade education more than I trust college big brains, so there! Go see if the WEF is hiring academic techno-fascists and other self-appointed bureaucratic psychopaths with connections to the corrupt globalist establishment.
I'd be happy to entertain any actual questions you have. You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings, but they're all generalities. This comment forum might not be the best forum for a detailed discussion, but you can always email me. For "no more contention" we need to start with clarity. For example, why do you ask about Columbus? Where in the Book of Mormon does it mention Columbus by name?
The best part about all of this argument is that 99.99% of the world could give a rat's ass. Keep trying to prove that the Earth is flat
You can't be serious about this BS. Im thinking logically that JS was not a true prophet. He fed us some mumbo-jumbo
Explain DNA haplo group X, is that BS mumbo-jumbo?
@stephenjensen5358 I'm pretty sure it falls under the same category as the book of mormon. All made up.
@jake8882 obviously too afraid to look it up. What a shock. All hate, no intellectual honesty.
Arguing about where a fictional book took place within the real world is an exercise in futility.
Yet you are here
making idiotic comments is even more of an exercise in futility.
Interesting you would even be entertaining this video. Troll possibly? May be time to reevaluate what your purpose is. And that goes for any of the likes.
“…ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man…?” Moroni 10:27.
@lauriefrost8822 I liked that quote the first time when it was used by Jonathan Edwards. Search Jonathan Edwards Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.
The Title of Liberty proves that not only did they have writing, but that at a basic level they also had literacy… the Title was carried with them everywhere they went for all the people to see, which implies that the general population could both read and write, if this is not true, then the entire exercise of creating it, and then carrying it with them everywhere they went was moot, and nonsensical
Just an observation…
The Title of Liberty was among the Nephites, The discussion was about whether this literate culture culture extended to the Lamanites such that it would have survived to our times. Many ancient written cultures have disappeared, and the argument is that that is what happened to the Nephite culture of writing.