they rub... and look at the data when you take the disc off, the disc brake is acting like a pump to cool itself down, that energy has to come from somewhere and it disturbs the airflow around it which causes more problems.
@Hambini does the full system stay in favour of disks? How does a bog standard caliper in front of the fork crown with an exposed cable up to the bars compare to a pumping disk with a largely internal brake hose and a caliper in the wake of the fork? Similarly for the rear. I'm genuinely curious.
Doesn't matter either way as I put a postage stamp over the speed field. Watt matters is the fun per hour and situational awareness. I do like disks. Also my '79 Dave Moulton!
@@howarddavies136 The brake caliper on a rim brake is in an area where the flow is already disturbed so it's fundamentally at a lower speed at the point of impact. I am not questioning whether disc brakes provide better stopping power - they definitely do but this business about claiming that disc brakes can be shielded from the wind and therefore make it just as good as a rim brake is utter nonsense. They have to remain cool as they warp when they get hot, that cooling convection flow has to come from somewhere.
screw the drag. Try riding rim brakes for 40 years and then go disk. Screw that. I am rim brake till i die. We are already facing having wheels built as you dick heads...sorry disk heads are causing the rest of us rim brake users to suffer without wheels. Try looking for a rin brake wheelset right now. Expensive ones can be had. Sub 400 pounds is what i am asking
Love to see a good reaming and a survivor of hard, lube free testing... The bike industry deserves Reaming with sand for years of deception & fraudulent claims.. Great work & looks like Faresports is a company that is creditable👍👍
I ride an Ascent Polaris 69 for some time now. At 69mm, it holds speed well at high speed and absolutely stable as well. This pair of wheels are future proof and packs a punch. Hope your reviews be as honest as an 5 year old.
Just my own observations, but my Ascent Polaris wheels exhibit no wobble in any conditions. I ride them pretty much daily in a windy coastal region. I race in the most competitive district in the US and the extra width of these wheels is welcome because nominal 30mm (32mm WAM) tires are the way to go here.
Touché I’m from Western Australia and it’s windy AF too. No issues with crosswinds or “speed wobbles” at high speed on descents. They’re actually super stable so I hv no clue about why Hambini’s tests say otherwise 🤔
Well... I made the statement that I don't think much of "bike engineers" and bike reviewers. I then used the following slides to see if they wanted to rise to the technical challenge or stick with "it holds it's speed well and is stiffer than last years model."
Always learning with Hambini. I don't think I've ever gone fast enough to have stability problems, but I'm glad he gets the pen out for those that do, and keeps them safe. Hambin, patron saint of racing cyclists.
I only ever see you discuss rim trailing edge dynamics, what about when the rim is the leading edge and tyre the trailing edge? Obviously the airflow is dirtier at that point, but it's still a pretty large area and a good transition then affects airflow over the downtube. On an aero frame that has put a lot of emphasis on the shape of the downtube you would want a rim that leaves the airflow as clean as possible for the downtube to do as much work as possible. The swiss side and new scope designed rims seem to take that into account by widening after the rim edge before tapering instead. The cross-section of the tyre and rim together then ends up being more of an ellipse than airfoil
ON a disc wheel the airflow hitting the upward rotating part of the front wheel (ie trailing end leading edges are reversed) is extremely compromised. It's like streamline spaghetti and local velocities in that area are comparatively low because of the vortices etc. I guess you can design a wheel to be fantastic on the upward rotation but then put it into a real situation with a fork and a disc in the way and you get a food mixer of airflow to cope with. I haven't really answered your question but I can't give you a specific answer because there are so many variables - bike frame make/type and size to name a few. eg you might find one wheel is faster on a particular bike because the supplementary geometry is more favourable. People often take the Tour german bike reviews to be gospel. In Aero circles, we consider it to be total BS. The test is valid for the particular bike (assuming it's done correctly) but people are assuming this to be the case for all models of the bike. It only takes a subtle variation in the stem length or seat height and you'll find that bike A is faster than bike B and the results become reversed when you do the stem change. And this is the main reason i do not test bike frames - it's a largely pointless activity for a large sample size.
Hi Hambini! As you say, tire width is less important for this wheel due to the tapered hook section. In your testing, the 32 mm tire was fastest (within margin of error) for the 30 mm wide wheel; is that a measured 32 mm width or a labeled width, as I assume a 32 mm GP5000 would measure 33-34 mm wide on that 24 mm internal width. Also, would that 32 mm tire remain fastest if the cord length was longer, such as in a 50 mm deep rim? I have a set of wheels measuring 31 mm at the hooks and 33 mm at the widest rim section (50 mm depth) and I'm wondering if I can remain as aero optimized on a 32 mm + wide measured width tire as I would on a 31 mm wide measured tire to match the hooked section. Thank you!
I’ve just installed some NSK bearings with non contact VV seals. Normally I’m an NTN guy and they are great. Just decided to try NSK this time and am really happy.
The pros learn to mute the sound until they can clearly see Hambini's lips go "HELLO HAMBINI FANS". Especially when they have previously forgotten to do it in an open office space.
Thanks for the video, love all that you do for the community! ...and I need to remind myself to watch till the end of the video before asking questions ;) lol
32:49 Everytime I see any video on this channel I wonder how much off Hambini’s theoretical analysis is from reality. I’ve been racing bikes for over 14 years now and have ridden several generations of Zipps, Enves, Rovals and a ton of other branded and CN wheels. The level of confidence my Polaris 69 inspires when ripping corners in Crits, is like no other wheelset I’ve raced. The disconnect between everything you’re claiming with graphs and numbers reflect nothing out in the real world. I’ve even ridden the 69s in windy road races and they’ve held up so good. Holding speed on flats and descents make the 69s so worth it. With Conti 28mm and 30mm tubeless tires on the 69, it’s never been a problem. The Polaris 42 set is an awesome balance between being light but still aero enough to allow you to hold speed. Just using the word “shite” a bunch of times with theoretical jargons is getting old 😅
A bode plot is a universally recognized method of assessing rotor stability. Whilst it may "not be a problem" for you. The tests show it's objectively less stable than the farsports and there two critical modes within a fairly typical operating speed range. The farsports only have one critical. And I forgot to add, these wheels were originally shipped with spokes that detached from the nipples
@@Hambini Understood about the plots. My point being in the real world experience that instability isn’t there. My Polaris 69 and 42 sets didn’t have the spoke issues either. I think they quickly moved away from the carbon spokes or something which didn’t maintain integrity. After that generation of faulty spokes the wheelsets feel so much more stable than my latest Rovals, Enve and Reserve wheels. I remember racing the first generation of Zipp 404 Firecrest wheels back around 2012. Those were scary as hell. When there was no wind it was super responsive to out of the saddle attacks and cornering but the moment there was cross wind those things felt like riding wooden roller coasters. Out of having raced several brands of wheels the only reason I’ve stuck with Polaris is because of the reliability, stability and its unique nature of being able to carry speed through corners. Especially the 69s in a crit.
@@EspressoWatts From an engineering perspective, it is technically impossible to have an aerodynamically stable (and fast) wheel that is extremely deep - it just defies physics. If you get a side wind, you build up pressure on one side and then it collapses. On a deep wheel that surface area is massive so the force generate is correspondingly large. Now it might be that the polaris wheel is extremely unaerodynamic in which case that pressure build up is small before it dissipates. It's just the data doesn't suggest that. A bode plot is measuring mechanical instability. It is showing how the wheel flexes at speed. If you have a balanced wheel (by choice or by accident), you can remove the excitation force so you won't get as severe a whirl. But the wheel has some inherent instability from the choice of hubs, spokes and the rim manufacuture. I hope that helps. I try where possible to rely on data than my opinion, and the bode plot and the data provided are that. If I had a choice between any disc wheel, I would pick the 9Velo CD55. If it was a rim I would go for the farsports S6 EVO.
@@Hambini That makes sense to me. There being some diminishing return on aerodynamics. From a bike racing (specifically crits) point of view, carrying momentum through corners is a huge advantage. Those 800-900W sprints out of corners every lap kill the legs like nothing else. There’s no point in having something super aero which helps only when the wind conditions match lab test conditions. Overall performance of a race wheel has to be a balance of all aspects- aerodynamics, stability, responsiveness to sudden acceleration and tire compatibility. I don’t know what it is from a scientific or theoretical point of view but for me that’s balance is where Polaris stands out. I have not ridden Farsports or 9Velo. So I have no real world data for those. I’ve tried a few other Chinese rims - light bicycles, win space, elite and yoeleo. Those wheels are extremely sluggish. Get out of the saddle and punch it and the damn thing doesn’t want to move. They are also poor with carrying momentum the corners. Appreciate you taking the time to engage in this conversation.
@@EspressoWatts I would try a shallow wheel that has minimal spokes. 45mm would probably the way to go. You'll probably benefit more from the acceleration than the aero - especially crit racing. Best of Luck!
I have Hyper 38s and experienced a concerning front wheel wobble descending on an unbroken surface but had undulations Rim version, skewer tight but then retightened some more, I might have thought a bit over Knocked confidence a bit Was this a skewer tightness issue or a combination of it and an undulating surface
Had the Farsport Ventoux S4 for 4 years no issue at all. Stiff like hell with the carbon spoke which I like and prefer very much. Only complaint is the ratchet on the Farsport hubs are slow to engage nothing too serious thought but prefer DT style ratchet system more.
Hambini, have you been sent any wheel sets by Lightcarbon for review or chance of getting one. Since Trifox had a good frame but dodgy wheels, or could they have great wheels for the ultimate affordable quality far east build
It's Much better in Holland, the bulk of cycle paths are completely segregated. The one's in the UK are limited and they are often a part of the road that has a white line to provide the delineation.
I think the max rim width 105% of the tyre width is to stop “wider is better” chaps sticking 32mm tyres on their 50mm deep 25mm wide wheels and wondering “where’s my aero bro?”
The wider is better crowd didn't exist or had no options when the rule of 105 was coined. Most bikes didn't even fit 28s then and 25s rubbed with some wide rims
Mapdec is a name-brand shill. He doesn't even know you can customize your farsports wheels (he only knows the branded website, not the wheels far website). He doesn't know you can just email them and get the components. I bought a bike from a not-as-known chinese company (sava) which didn't even get a good review by Cam Nichols. My bike has over 8k miles on it, crashed it once and literally no issues. When I needed a new derailleur hanger, I emailed them, and within 10 hours they replied and I had two spares in the mail.
I only have one 21mm internal wheel left and it's on the front of my bike that's on my trainer😂. 25 is my narrowest road rim and 32 is my narrowest MTB rim
Wonder why (on straight-pull spokes) they can't move the spoke nipples from the rim to the hub? I'm thinking there'd be marginally better aero on the faster moving rim. The hub is more of an aero mess already so having the nipples there wouldn't matter.
I asked to 9velo about the weight of their hubs and is exactly the same as the farsports RD270 hubs (I suspect that these are the steel spoke version of the RD270s or something similar)... so🤔
IANAE Your discussion of wheel aerodynamics, starting with the MiG wings, was interesting, but I think it is like comparing mammals and plants. There is very little about the shape of a MiG wing that is similar to that of a bicycle tire and wheel. For example, while (as you had drawn) the cross section of a tire presents itself as a hemisphere to the air stream. No serious aero engineer would present a hemispherical leading edge as low drag. Similarly, talk of a 3:1 or 4:1 aspect ratio wouldn’t generally fly (ha ha) in a thick high-lift wing much less a supersonic jet, much much less a highly efficient sailplane. In the latter case, I think something like a 10+:1 ratio is commonly expected for low drag. I think much of your lecture re wheel shape and stability is based on theory flying wing and over simplified assumptions that bike wheels closely approximate wings aerodynamically, not measurement of actual wheel performance. Flying wings (even symmetrical airfoils) present a radically different 3d shape to the airstream than does a bicycle wheel and tire. And I’ve yet to see any descriptive write-up of bike wheel wind tunnel testing which really delved into stability testing, especially to the degree that would argue for a Kamm style airfoil to enhance bike stability. If I’m wrong, it would be nice for you to describe what was measured and how. A flying elevator (as opposed to a stabilizer w/ a trailing edge elevator) starts to take on some of the characteristics of a bike wheel facing a crossing wind. However, with the flying elevator, it is possible to adjust the pivot along the wing chord to control balance and stability. In the case of a wheel, the wheel-foil pivots around the axis of the steering column. And the center of the wheel-foil is off center from that axis, with the determinants of this geometry driven by wheel/bike/road stability, not optimization of wind drag or stability. I would argue that in a crossing wind, the wheel acts a bit like a weather vane, with the added possibility that there can be design characteristics that might cause the area in front of and behind the steering axis having different stall characteristics which might compound or counteract stability problems. Further, I would argue that a, for example, 35mm V rim, would show similar stability improvements to a 35mm Kamm tail rim, when either is compared to a 45, 50, or 60mm rim. Again I would welcome lab testing that proves otherwise. The various bits on a bike, including frame tubes and wheels are small scale airfoils. They operate at low speeds. And while we can discuss Reynold numbers, the fact is that the rules for airfoil design and achieving low drag don’t scale down well for small low-speed airfoils. I think I’ve brought this point up to you before but see no evidence that you’ve dug into this subject, or how in impacts bicycle aerodynamics. Finally, it may be that you’re dumbing your descriptions down for your audience. But if not, it seems that you’re demonstrating some of the same blindness to actual aero profiles as does every bicycle engiteer or marikiner. That is, the ubiquities profiles shown of and analyzed for bike wheels only represent an infinitesimal part of the wheels aero profile. For example toward the top and bottom of the wheel the shape becomes a symmetrical teardrop figure 8. Higher and lower it morphs into an oval, which becomes smaller as one looks further from the wheel axle, and then ultimately disappears. Furthermore, there is the whole discussion of dirty air. The backwards aero form taken by the backside of the wheel seems unlikely to be optimized. Is that unimportant due to dirty air? If so, why do we need aerodynamic rear wheels. Or if it does matter, should the rim/tire combo be designed to be symmetrical? There are lots of questions and opportunities for those who ask the right questions, do you not agree? ❤😊
Billy Bolt has sold countless Huskies. I’m an old MX rider but I want to watch an enduro race that is captured using 50 drones on a mountain in Austria. 500 riders start the race and maybe 10 riders finish the race in the 4 hours allowed. I’d love to see a motocross race that lasts 2 hours like a hare scramble. Do a motocross race where the winner is the last man standing.
I don't get the argument of disk vs rim, is a rim not simply a much bigger disk, in cars and motor racing the bigger the disk the better. Maybe we need hydraulic rim ?
Discs are way more beneficial on an mtb. They work with much less effort and arent affected by dinged rims. I once taco'ed a wheel once at the beginning of a mtb race. I was able to beat the wheel back into sorta round and continue. If I had rim brakes I would have had to quit. That said, both my road bikes have rim brakes.
Hambini: "Unreleased Prototype Clipped Cord Wheels . . . " Reply: "Uh, Hambini, if it's 'prototype' it MUST be 'unreleased'. Back to the literal literary drawing board! Engineers!
correct, but also thier are college degreed engineers, university degreed, masters and Ph.D. ENGINEERS, and state licensed engineers, some engineers dont or cant pass the state licensing exam
C Eng indicates a chartered engineer in UK. There are many non chartered engineers, often because their careers don't fulfil the exact experience requirements which inculde both design and supervision/project management.
So who makes these black box hubs? All these Chinese wheel mfg are selling their own "DT Swiss Like" hubs now. Assume they are oem from the same place? *Are the Ratchets DT Swiss compatible? If so that would be a comfort since if the ratchets were to fail, you could just upgrade the inner ratchet and bearings with DT/SKF and you are good to go - FOR Cheap.
Be careful Hambini. Frothing over these numbers will have The controversial cyclist thinking you are shilling the Farsports and he will be knocking out some grade A vitriol on you 😉
Do you include rides to the hospital, broken skulls and rehab when testing super-light high-profile carbon sketchy-riding wheels? These death traps should be banned
Not sure what this video is about. we have a low profile wheel that has nothing special, not super light, not super stiff, not super aero, just a std low profile wheel...
Why do you still hate on disk brakes when peak torque did a real world test which showed there is almost no difference in drag
they rub... and look at the data when you take the disc off, the disc brake is acting like a pump to cool itself down, that energy has to come from somewhere and it disturbs the airflow around it which causes more problems.
@Hambini does the full system stay in favour of disks? How does a bog standard caliper in front of the fork crown with an exposed cable up to the bars compare to a pumping disk with a largely internal brake hose and a caliper in the wake of the fork? Similarly for the rear. I'm genuinely curious.
Doesn't matter either way as I put a postage stamp over the speed field. Watt matters is the fun per hour and situational awareness. I do like disks. Also my '79 Dave Moulton!
@@howarddavies136 The brake caliper on a rim brake is in an area where the flow is already disturbed so it's fundamentally at a lower speed at the point of impact. I am not questioning whether disc brakes provide better stopping power - they definitely do but this business about claiming that disc brakes can be shielded from the wind and therefore make it just as good as a rim brake is utter nonsense. They have to remain cool as they warp when they get hot, that cooling convection flow has to come from somewhere.
screw the drag. Try riding rim brakes for 40 years and then go disk. Screw that. I am rim brake till i die. We are already facing having wheels built as you dick heads...sorry disk heads are causing the rest of us rim brake users to suffer without wheels. Try looking for a rin brake wheelset right now. Expensive ones can be had. Sub 400 pounds is what i am asking
Love to see a good reaming and a survivor of hard, lube free testing... The bike industry deserves Reaming with sand for years of deception & fraudulent claims.. Great work & looks like Faresports is a company that is creditable👍👍
Bought hambini BB twice, smooth AF, makes me prefer to ride my road bike that shot my head.
Thank very much for making a BEST product Sir!
I ride an Ascent Polaris 69 for some time now. At 69mm, it holds speed well at high speed and absolutely stable as well. This pair of wheels are future proof and packs a punch. Hope your reviews be as honest as an 5 year old.
Just my own observations, but my Ascent Polaris wheels exhibit no wobble in any conditions. I ride them pretty much daily in a windy coastal region. I race in the most competitive district in the US and the extra width of these wheels is welcome because nominal 30mm (32mm WAM) tires are the way to go here.
Touché I’m from Western Australia and it’s windy AF too. No issues with crosswinds or “speed wobbles” at high speed on descents. They’re actually super stable so I hv no clue about why Hambini’s tests say otherwise 🤔
As usual a great video, but the Princess needs a bath. What would a Hambini reaming be without the Princess ? She's a megastar !!!
5:00 Ninevelo use H-works hubs which is Farsports' in-house hub brand and I'm extremely confident they use Farsports rims and carbon spokes
Holy crap, the technical analysis in this video is in another league.
Well... I made the statement that I don't think much of "bike engineers" and bike reviewers. I then used the following slides to see if they wanted to rise to the technical challenge or stick with "it holds it's speed well and is stiffer than last years model."
Yeah, but what league? he's starting to drift into the snake oil industry league with his unbacked engineering claims...
I just love how candid you are. 18:41
every time I think of changing my TCR rim brake bike I just visit your channel and save putting a dent in the old bank balance.
Taking off my disc rotors for the 6 watt gains
I took off my derailleur cassette and brakes for those marginal gains
I just never "upgraded" ;)
How _far_ is the _sport?_ 🤔
Always learning with Hambini. I don't think I've ever gone fast enough to have stability problems, but I'm glad he gets the pen out for those that do, and keeps them safe. Hambin, patron saint of racing cyclists.
You're not the type of engineer who wears a hoodie, you're the type of engineer who uses a princess blanket.
Hooded engineers will no doubt fall victim to darwinism when they fire up the lathe.
That's covered in "toothpaste" staines....
I only ever see you discuss rim trailing edge dynamics, what about when the rim is the leading edge and tyre the trailing edge? Obviously the airflow is dirtier at that point, but it's still a pretty large area and a good transition then affects airflow over the downtube. On an aero frame that has put a lot of emphasis on the shape of the downtube you would want a rim that leaves the airflow as clean as possible for the downtube to do as much work as possible.
The swiss side and new scope designed rims seem to take that into account by widening after the rim edge before tapering instead. The cross-section of the tyre and rim together then ends up being more of an ellipse than airfoil
ON a disc wheel the airflow hitting the upward rotating part of the front wheel (ie trailing end leading edges are reversed) is extremely compromised. It's like streamline spaghetti and local velocities in that area are comparatively low because of the vortices etc. I guess you can design a wheel to be fantastic on the upward rotation but then put it into a real situation with a fork and a disc in the way and you get a food mixer of airflow to cope with.
I haven't really answered your question but I can't give you a specific answer because there are so many variables - bike frame make/type and size to name a few. eg you might find one wheel is faster on a particular bike because the supplementary geometry is more favourable.
People often take the Tour german bike reviews to be gospel. In Aero circles, we consider it to be total BS. The test is valid for the particular bike (assuming it's done correctly) but people are assuming this to be the case for all models of the bike. It only takes a subtle variation in the stem length or seat height and you'll find that bike A is faster than bike B and the results become reversed when you do the stem change. And this is the main reason i do not test bike frames - it's a largely pointless activity for a large sample size.
Hi Hambini! As you say, tire width is less important for this wheel due to the tapered hook section. In your testing, the 32 mm tire was fastest (within margin of error) for the 30 mm wide wheel; is that a measured 32 mm width or a labeled width, as I assume a 32 mm GP5000 would measure 33-34 mm wide on that 24 mm internal width. Also, would that 32 mm tire remain fastest if the cord length was longer, such as in a 50 mm deep rim? I have a set of wheels measuring 31 mm at the hooks and 33 mm at the widest rim section (50 mm depth) and I'm wondering if I can remain as aero optimized on a 32 mm + wide measured width tire as I would on a 31 mm wide measured tire to match the hooked section. Thank you!
I’ve just installed some NSK bearings with non contact VV seals. Normally I’m an NTN guy and they are great. Just decided to try NSK this time and am really happy.
The pros learn to mute the sound until they can clearly see Hambini's lips go "HELLO HAMBINI FANS". Especially when they have previously forgotten to do it in an open office space.
What? My hearing is gone.
Yeah, i did that today. I like my ear drums. I am a drummer
I learned to FF 10 sec after I hit the play button.
@@petrv76 That's GT winner levels of readiness, well done!
Looks like an H-Works hub (which is indeed also used by 9Velo).
Thanks for the video, love all that you do for the community! ...and I need to remind myself to watch till the end of the video before asking questions ;) lol
32:49 Everytime I see any video on this channel I wonder how much off Hambini’s theoretical analysis is from reality. I’ve been racing bikes for over 14 years now and have ridden several generations of Zipps, Enves, Rovals and a ton of other branded and CN wheels. The level of confidence my Polaris 69 inspires when ripping corners in Crits, is like no other wheelset I’ve raced. The disconnect between everything you’re claiming with graphs and numbers reflect nothing out in the real world. I’ve even ridden the 69s in windy road races and they’ve held up so good. Holding speed on flats and descents make the 69s so worth it. With Conti 28mm and 30mm tubeless tires on the 69, it’s never been a problem.
The Polaris 42 set is an awesome balance between being light but still aero enough to allow you to hold speed.
Just using the word “shite” a bunch of times with theoretical jargons is getting old 😅
A bode plot is a universally recognized method of assessing rotor stability. Whilst it may "not be a problem" for you. The tests show it's objectively less stable than the farsports and there two critical modes within a fairly typical operating speed range. The farsports only have one critical.
And I forgot to add, these wheels were originally shipped with spokes that detached from the nipples
@@Hambini Understood about the plots. My point being in the real world experience that instability isn’t there. My Polaris 69 and 42 sets didn’t have the spoke issues either. I think they quickly moved away from the carbon spokes or something which didn’t maintain integrity. After that generation of faulty spokes the wheelsets feel so much more stable than my latest Rovals, Enve and Reserve wheels.
I remember racing the first generation of Zipp 404 Firecrest wheels back around 2012. Those were scary as hell. When there was no wind it was super responsive to out of the saddle attacks and cornering but the moment there was cross wind those things felt like riding wooden roller coasters.
Out of having raced several brands of wheels the only reason I’ve stuck with Polaris is because of the reliability, stability and its unique nature of being able to carry speed through corners. Especially the 69s in a crit.
@@EspressoWatts From an engineering perspective, it is technically impossible to have an aerodynamically stable (and fast) wheel that is extremely deep - it just defies physics. If you get a side wind, you build up pressure on one side and then it collapses. On a deep wheel that surface area is massive so the force generate is correspondingly large.
Now it might be that the polaris wheel is extremely unaerodynamic in which case that pressure build up is small before it dissipates. It's just the data doesn't suggest that.
A bode plot is measuring mechanical instability. It is showing how the wheel flexes at speed. If you have a balanced wheel (by choice or by accident), you can remove the excitation force so you won't get as severe a whirl. But the wheel has some inherent instability from the choice of hubs, spokes and the rim manufacuture. I hope that helps.
I try where possible to rely on data than my opinion, and the bode plot and the data provided are that. If I had a choice between any disc wheel, I would pick the 9Velo CD55. If it was a rim I would go for the farsports S6 EVO.
@@Hambini That makes sense to me. There being some diminishing return on aerodynamics.
From a bike racing (specifically crits) point of view, carrying momentum through corners is a huge advantage. Those 800-900W sprints out of corners every lap kill the legs like nothing else. There’s no point in having something super aero which helps only when the wind conditions match lab test conditions. Overall performance of a race wheel has to be a balance of all aspects- aerodynamics, stability, responsiveness to sudden acceleration and tire compatibility. I don’t know what it is from a scientific or theoretical point of view but for me that’s balance is where Polaris stands out.
I have not ridden Farsports or 9Velo. So I have no real world data for those. I’ve tried a few other Chinese rims - light bicycles, win space, elite and yoeleo. Those wheels are extremely sluggish. Get out of the saddle and punch it and the damn thing doesn’t want to move. They are also poor with carrying momentum the corners.
Appreciate you taking the time to engage in this conversation.
@@EspressoWatts I would try a shallow wheel that has minimal spokes. 45mm would probably the way to go. You'll probably benefit more from the acceleration than the aero - especially crit racing.
Best of Luck!
I have Hyper 38s and experienced a concerning front wheel wobble descending on an unbroken surface but had undulations
Rim version, skewer tight but then retightened some more, I might have thought a bit over
Knocked confidence a bit
Was this a skewer tightness issue or a combination of it and an undulating surface
i would check the out of balance first. You cannot easily change the resonant frequencies but you can easily reduce the excitation frequencies.
Thanks. Have you posted on the subject
Selling Hultafors tal3 and tal6 exelent.. also a garage with Festool and Makita. Nice 👍
Had the Farsport Ventoux S4 for 4 years no issue at all. Stiff like hell with the carbon spoke which I like and prefer very much. Only complaint is the ratchet on the Farsport hubs are slow to engage nothing too serious thought but prefer DT style ratchet system more.
Hambini, have you been sent any wheel sets by Lightcarbon for review or chance of getting one. Since Trifox had a good frame but dodgy wheels, or could they have great wheels for the ultimate affordable quality far east build
lightcarbon and prox are the same brand. The gravel bike I bought was Lightcarbon.
@@Hambini would you say lightcarbon frame is up there quality wise with win space?
@hambini I need buyers advice, I dont want a look or Time but do want an aerobike what brands schould I consider?
51.6mph on 69mm Ascent Polaris no issues at all.
Same here! I’ve ripped that thing down descents at 75-80kph and 45-50kph through corners in criteriums. Zero issues whatsoever.
How do the spoke nipples go in if there are no holes in the rim.?
I believe the hole for the valves. Then using a magnet to move the nipple around to the hole.
7:06 Shots fired! 😂⚰️
Reg is a bit of a w⚓
Hi Hambini. Are you still Road Riding in the UK, is it not too Dangerous?
It's Much better in Holland, the bulk of cycle paths are completely segregated. The one's in the UK are limited and they are often a part of the road that has a white line to provide the delineation.
Virtually Everywhere in Europe is better than the UK. ! @@Hambini
That tape measure is only a class II though 😁 👍. Another great video
I think the max rim width 105% of the tyre width is to stop “wider is better” chaps sticking 32mm tyres on their 50mm deep 25mm wide wheels and wondering “where’s my aero bro?”
The wider is better crowd didn't exist or had no options when the rule of 105 was coined. Most bikes didn't even fit 28s then and 25s rubbed with some wide rims
Re. Recent Mapdec video, what's the spare parts availablity?
As it's a prototype, you could be screwed.
@@Hambini Or he could have an interfearance fit.
Mapdec is a name-brand shill. He doesn't even know you can customize your farsports wheels (he only knows the branded website, not the wheels far website). He doesn't know you can just email them and get the components.
I bought a bike from a not-as-known chinese company (sava) which didn't even get a good review by Cam Nichols. My bike has over 8k miles on it, crashed it once and literally no issues. When I needed a new derailleur hanger, I emailed them, and within 10 hours they replied and I had two spares in the mail.
Fuckin Hell, Bode graphs for bicycle wheels. Never thought I'd see that
Nuclear Engineer Approved 👍
Are the freehubs cross compatible with DT freehubs?
seeing 24mm internal width on road rims makes me really want to get rid of the 21mm ones on my yeti mtb... crazy
I only have one 21mm internal wheel left and it's on the front of my bike that's on my trainer😂. 25 is my narrowest road rim and 32 is my narrowest MTB rim
was just thinking not seen a Hambini video pop up for a bit ,well looks like my youtube account magically unsubscribed somehow
Any updates on Iso standard progress with the hookless rim fiasco guys?
Not so far. That one has gone a bit quiet.
The 105 Percent (not Kilos) tyre/rim width rule is - as is usual for pushbike world- highly debatable.
Wonder why (on straight-pull spokes) they can't move the spoke nipples from the rim to the hub? I'm thinking there'd be marginally better aero on the faster moving rim. The hub is more of an aero mess already so having the nipples there wouldn't matter.
I asked to 9velo about the weight of their hubs and is exactly the same as the farsports RD270 hubs (I suspect that these are the steel spoke version of the RD270s or something similar)... so🤔
IANAE Your discussion of wheel aerodynamics, starting with the MiG wings, was interesting, but I think it is like comparing mammals and plants. There is very little about the shape of a MiG wing that is similar to that of a bicycle tire and wheel. For example, while (as you had drawn) the cross section of a tire presents itself as a hemisphere to the air stream. No serious aero engineer would present a hemispherical leading edge as low drag. Similarly, talk of a 3:1 or 4:1 aspect ratio wouldn’t generally fly (ha ha) in a thick high-lift wing much less a supersonic jet, much much less a highly efficient sailplane. In the latter case, I think something like a 10+:1 ratio is commonly expected for low drag.
I think much of your lecture re wheel shape and stability is based on theory flying wing and over simplified assumptions that bike wheels closely approximate wings aerodynamically, not measurement of actual wheel performance. Flying wings (even symmetrical airfoils) present a radically different 3d shape to the airstream than does a bicycle wheel and tire. And I’ve yet to see any descriptive write-up of bike wheel wind tunnel testing which really delved into stability testing, especially to the degree that would argue for a Kamm style airfoil to enhance bike stability. If I’m wrong, it would be nice for you to describe what was measured and how.
A flying elevator (as opposed to a stabilizer w/ a trailing edge elevator) starts to take on some of the characteristics of a bike wheel facing a crossing wind. However, with the flying elevator, it is possible to adjust the pivot along the wing chord to control balance and stability. In the case of a wheel, the wheel-foil pivots around the axis of the steering column. And the center of the wheel-foil is off center from that axis, with the determinants of this geometry driven by wheel/bike/road stability, not optimization of wind drag or stability.
I would argue that in a crossing wind, the wheel acts a bit like a weather vane, with the added possibility that there can be design characteristics that might cause the area in front of and behind the steering axis having different stall characteristics which might compound or counteract stability problems. Further, I would argue that a, for example, 35mm V rim, would show similar stability improvements to a 35mm Kamm tail rim, when either is compared to a 45, 50, or 60mm rim. Again I would welcome lab testing that proves otherwise.
The various bits on a bike, including frame tubes and wheels are small scale airfoils. They operate at low speeds. And while we can discuss Reynold numbers, the fact is that the rules for airfoil design and achieving low drag don’t scale down well for small low-speed airfoils. I think I’ve brought this point up to you before but see no evidence that you’ve dug into this subject, or how in impacts bicycle aerodynamics.
Finally, it may be that you’re dumbing your descriptions down for your audience. But if not, it seems that you’re demonstrating some of the same blindness to actual aero profiles as does every bicycle engiteer or marikiner. That is, the ubiquities profiles shown of and analyzed for bike wheels only represent an infinitesimal part of the wheels aero profile. For example toward the top and bottom of the wheel the shape becomes a symmetrical teardrop figure 8. Higher and lower it morphs into an oval, which becomes smaller as one looks further from the wheel axle, and then ultimately disappears.
Furthermore, there is the whole discussion of dirty air. The backwards aero form taken by the backside of the wheel seems unlikely to be optimized. Is that unimportant due to dirty air? If so, why do we need aerodynamic rear wheels. Or if it does matter, should the rim/tire combo be designed to be symmetrical? There are lots of questions and opportunities for those who ask the right questions, do you not agree? ❤😊
Interesting Mr H. Good Show.
I only watched the first 8 seconds. It's all the fix I needed🤟
no rimtape trend started by Campagnolo 2WayFit back in 2014! i still have 2 pairs with no issues.
Mavic done this years before. But yeah great system love my Bora WTO 45mm. Buttery smooth.
Billy Bolt has sold countless Huskies. I’m an old MX rider but I want to watch an enduro race that is captured using 50 drones on a mountain in Austria. 500 riders start the race and maybe 10 riders finish the race in the 4 hours allowed. I’d love to see a motocross race that lasts 2 hours like a hare scramble. Do a motocross race where the winner is the last man standing.
What does Erzburg have to do with testing a pair of push bike road wheels?
You had me at hooked😅 Sold
How do you replace the spoke nipples in case of failure?
I’m also interested in knowing that.
I’m, also interested in knowing that.
screw a bit of something ferritic on the new nipple and use a magnet
I ordered a set of those hubs a couple of days ago
Hello Hambini!!!
What are the latest news regarding AbsoluteCrap ?
Hooked all the way! 😎👍
1221 gms is not bad. If they drill some spoke holes it will be even lighter.
Do you know the price and when their available?
about $900-1000
Famous lol well that's bit of overstatement.
I feel like I should receive some sort of degree after watching this episode.
Would you like to review a problematic Wheelsfar Hyper wheel set, that has a rear wheel that is impossible to get true?
I won’t purchase any bike until it has been reviewed by David of JustRideBikes 👍
you meant "advertised" not reviewed
He used to say „It just doesn’t stop accelerating!“ about my Cervelo S3, and I try to keep that in mind every time I’m riding it. 🤡
I don't get the argument of disk vs rim, is a rim not simply a much bigger disk, in cars and motor racing the bigger the disk the better. Maybe we need hydraulic rim ?
Discs are way more beneficial on an mtb. They work with much less effort and arent affected by dinged rims.
I once taco'ed a wheel once at the beginning of a mtb race. I was able to beat the wheel back into sorta round and continue. If I had rim brakes I would have had to quit.
That said, both my road bikes have rim brakes.
@@johndef5075 Agree for MTB out not needed for road.
@@johndef5075 Agree, as MTB rims get covered on crap. I try to keep my road bike out of the crap
Great video, but if my wheels ever turn at the rate of a turbofan engine, I'm bailing!
you don't need to, 30mph is enough to get them to whirl
I’ve never seen the Pen being used so much
I’ve always gone for the lightest wheels I can. I suck climbing to I like to think the lighter wheels make me climb faster
😂😂 I always start with the volume low
Love it, telling it like it is 👍
Just like Durianrider with his Bogan Aussie analysis 👍
I thought Josh Poertner worked for Silca - are you shilling if you are advertising your own product?
He's CEO of Silca... It's not shilling if you're the actual head of the company. Methinks Hambini might be jealous.
HELLO, HAMBINIII
It’s the same concept as the Trek “Kammtail” looks like
do you think it's likely that the new wheeltop EDS will put me in the hospital? not asking for a friend just my idiot self.
Fixing a busted spoke on that must be a nightmare.
Hambini: "Unreleased Prototype Clipped Cord Wheels . . . "
Reply: "Uh, Hambini, if it's 'prototype' it MUST be 'unreleased'. Back to the literal literary drawing board! Engineers!
for your usual quick wit I'd say that was pretty shyte. You are usually a bit more ruthless than that.
Ooooo, tape measure envy!
A professional engineer has CEng after his or her name
correct, but also thier are college degreed engineers, university degreed, masters and Ph.D. ENGINEERS, and state licensed engineers, some engineers dont or cant pass the state licensing exam
C Eng indicates a chartered engineer in UK. There are many non chartered engineers, often because their careers don't fulfil the exact experience requirements which inculde both design and supervision/project management.
I knew this guy…. he didn’t use to be a shill
😂😂😂
Even before you became famous, or 'infamous'?
So who makes these black box hubs? All these Chinese wheel mfg are selling their own "DT Swiss Like" hubs now. Assume they are oem from the same place? *Are the Ratchets DT Swiss compatible? If so that would be a comfort since if the ratchets were to fail, you could just upgrade the inner ratchet and bearings with DT/SKF and you are good to go - FOR Cheap.
Be careful Hambini. Frothing over these numbers will have The controversial cyclist thinking you are shilling the Farsports and he will be knocking out some grade A vitriol on you 😉
so, this is an ad?
all video are ad.
Engineers in hoodies.
Robert D'Ewes Granville?
he's a record producer
Sorry I must have been thinking of someone else....
So if you break the rim you won't lose a tire? OK
Do you include rides to the hospital, broken skulls and rehab when testing super-light high-profile carbon sketchy-riding wheels?
These death traps should be banned
👍
Not sure what this video is about. we have a low profile wheel that has nothing special, not super light, not super stiff, not super aero, just a std low profile wheel...
Decent review....Controversial cyclists new mate......He will be jumping on you when he runs out of people to bully!
I dont do gravel MTB or fat bike
I dont do gravel or MTB.
If its still got spokes, in 2024, that's a hard pass. Disc or gtfo
Supp Sea Nutt😅😅😅😅
So many people write in to ME to complain about that channel. I'm just like a sponge for anyone who is not squeaky clean.
I think you'll find that people who claim to be clean are the dirtiest MOFOs ever😅
You need HED
You don’t get women in high places in the west? Plenty here in USA. Hambini chealeading the east and trashing the west?
High heels will get you in high places lol.