Credit to these guys! Turned this around very fast. Can confirm that Chris can get it up very quickly 🎉 even as a cyclist Few comments to add: The easy answer to the 305W NP questions is - it doesn't get easier you and everyone else just get faster. The avg. speed of the bunch I bet has gone up I bet over the years. Secondly, Mr Bigham has been on the phone to say every GC leader should ride an aero bike. While the CFD says deep in the bunch there is up to a 95% drag reduction, the ride files don't show that, which he has access to :) Some more comments about tubeless - the tubeless center channel depth is really important when it comes to safety, yes you can make it deeper for easy installation (and the bead seat diameter can be the same at the wall) but if the bead slips down into the deeper channel under total pressure loss it is equally easy for the tyre to come off!
I've been hoping for this one for a while. Great to see you on; and I loved that you grabbed the calculator as soon as Jesse started asking watts numbers :D
Wow, this was my absolutely favorite episode! Great job to all 3 of you. As an engineer, I am in absolute awe of how well Alex can explain such complex topics and make it seem so interesting. He is a fantastic teacher. Keep up the good work with the podcast guys! you're absolutely right, the goal is to generate the conversation, and not cover 100% of the details.
I started this thinking "no way am I gonna get through an hour and a half".... got to the end like "wait yall are done already?" Great stuff, pod keeps getting better and better.
Loved the longer format and being able to hear Alex's viewpoints on multiple topics. Alex's depth of knowledge came across even better than it does in his own channel.
Interesting discussion. As an F1 analyst, Ive bern struggling to understand this ‘aero’ issue, all of sudden bike manufacturers, and especially many cycling enthusiasts I met on the road becoming aero experts. In F1, even big names like Scuderia Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren DO make mistakes in understanding aero. Those teams have enormous budget & state-of-the-art wind tunnels & R&D by reputable engineering teams. Not to mention carbon layup, where to make it stiff & where to ‘cheat’ (heard of flexi wing?). This is a very good video with substantial discussion 👍 The real reason enthusiasts want aero bikes is because aero bikes are neat looking.
Correct, fact of the matter is, wearing a pair of $25 aero socks reduces drag by more than the SL8 Roval stem and bar combo, but people want the bike anyway because its prestigious.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Very impressed with the 'common man' application from PT. He is only the second guy I have heard mention the 'stacked springs' idea on a bike and that things are too stiff most of the time. I have a saying that I think applies to most situations and most people riding a bike: "Smoother is faster". I do a lot of gravel riding, often on review bikes, carbon wheels, etc, and that really is a case where compliance is nearly always faster overall. And I am just now planning a new road bike build and contemplating 32s and a shallow carbon wheel for road. For where I live and how I ride, I think it is a smart choice, but I keep getting distracted by the 'shiny rocks' that modern bike marketing tosses out. We shall see. Thanks for the food for thought.
I'd love for you to dive into your hefron park data set and see if the speed has changed over the years. If everyone else has swapped from round tube bikes to aero rigs over the last 10 years then maybe everyone is still pushing the same power as always, but the pack is going a little bit faster? Rather than expecting Chris's watts to drop as if he's in isolation and the only one on a faster bike. Potentially the same reason why pro races have gotten a bit quicker over the last 5ish years.
@PeakTorque I believe you misunderstood the analysis WRT the venge vias. It was 2 mins faster compared to what it replaced (Specialized Tarmac SL5 I believe). Then the venge was a smidge faster and the SL8 is claimed to be a smidge faster still. That's all with respect to the SL5 Tarmac, not the venge vias.
Since aerodynamics is so personal (and manufacture claims are so dubious), I test my gear a velodrome. I measure the watts required to ride at a given speed. Then do it again with the new gear at the same speed. If I don’t see meaningful watts saved, then I return or resell the product. Job done
Great episode gentlemen; easily in the top 5 of all-time for the Nero Show. Recommend at least quarterly collaborations with PT. I’m personally a big fan of PT as well. I think your approaches to subjects relating with our sport are complimentary. Presents a very researched approach & useful contrast to questionable industry directions. Again, very solid episode! Cheers!
Edit: great video! loved it, what a star line-up of guests you've got on here Additional comment: The Hefron Park analysis has a faulty premise. CMiller is able to do 305 W normalized for the race, and with a faster bike he's just going to be going faster for that same power. His placings might not have improved much (if at all), because his competition will have also been slowly upgrading to more aero bikes (presumably). What I'd like to see whether the average speed of these races has tended to increase over the years, because with constant normalized power that would be indicative of aerodynamics having improved overall.
I hope you guys paid attention, "smaller, slimmer the front tire the faster you go" the rest is pure marketing :P I am still using my 23mm oldddddd continental GP4000 until they rot, after that i will test the GP5000 TR like Alex told us to do :)
I think a good example of a large rider who focused on system aero was Adam Hansen. He would ride the Helium over the Noah with negative stem, wild drop to the 38cm bars all to get low and narrow. Did have the 35mm bars for stiffness/weight (sponsor), imagine that would be integrated now if it could be had with the negative stem.
Is it just me confused at the start of the vid? Is it not the venge spaceship with the dodgy brakes was 2 mins faster than the previous bike that was never named? So the SL8 is only 12 seconds faster than that original venge?
Excellent points here; a) 33W gain of SL8 over Venge Vias is clearly ridiculous. Specialized need to respond to this or risk looking stupid. b) small riders benefit more from weight and aero savings. Fact, but little known. c) Blowout video - I took it down because some people were reacting aggressively towards me which I really don't need. My YT videos are sporadic, crap and a hobby, nothing more. And also because I wanted to wait for some feedback from Conti, which I now have. So will reinstate the video with updates.
The segment about the aero gain is kinda confusing. Because it isn't SL8 vs Venge Vias it's SL8 vs some bike before the Venge Vias. Jessy doesn't really say which bike that Venge Vias gained 2 minutes over.
Thank God someone has finally pointed out that aero savings in the bunch is basically zero. Imagine all those pros choosing the aero bike and sitting in the bunch all day. Thanks TP
@@Pablo_Coach VERY FEW amateurs are riding at 37-40kph SOLO for extended periods of time and even then most manufacturers quote savings based on speeds around 45-50kph. That may not seem like much but form (aerodynamic) drag is a function of speed squared so actually it is. For the vast majority of regular riders it might be 4-5 watts MAX saving, then factor in if it’s a hilly route it could be nothing (or less). As PT says body position saves you far more My point still stands. I agreed with you that an aero bike can benefit those riding alone. A pro (or amateur) riding in a bunch gets zero benefit. The one who truly benefits is a pro going on the break as they’re solo & can maintain the speeds where the claimed aero benefits can be realised
@@pantster9855 im average amateur and riding my local 60km loop at avg 38kmph, I started riding bikes at age of 37 and now I have 42 (all my past live is without any spor, activity). So many amateur in hood shape riding at 40avg
I quite like PT in this format. Definitely one of the best episodes so far. Would love to hear Bikotic on the show and listen to Chris and Jesse pick his brain on frame geometry and western brands that are sharing moulds.
Listened to the podcast but came here to comment: this is one of the best if not the very best episode of any cycling related podcasts I have ever heard... Up there with the early Silca (Josh) marginal gains episodes. So much free game from a guy with a lot of knowledge. ❤ I love you Nero Show keep up the good work!!!
Superb. The cycling industry is a total mess. Endless unproven BS claims. The whole community benefits from people like Alex. This is the direction you guys should target. Real talk. No marketing/sponsor shilling. Actual science backed information. Same as what Jesse does with his training content.
Aren’t some of the aero claims on many aero bikes in the past include narrowing the bars and position ? The 2 min claim might be a tarmac 42 cm bars vs 38 cm venge. This assumes the OEM isn’t lying.
I think there is some confusion in those times. What was probably meant to be said was that the Venge VIAS is 2 min faster than the SL4 or SL5 Tarmac. Peak torque explained the times as of the last discontinued Venge was 2 min faster than the Venge VIAS. Which its not, that is only 8 seconds faster... And then its not 33 watts, its just 3 watts faster (if you use 4sec per watt)
My father has been working with carbon as a engineer for years all this bikes are extremely overpriced. Plus I know two bike owners who tell me what that bikes cost to Make and the crazy mark up sale prices in bike stores. I get this information as I work in finance for one of biggest banks in the world. The whole industry is a rip off. The only way the prices will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices
"...will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices" And that will only happen if somehow marketing bullspeak stops working. PT Barnum was right! Marketing trumps everything - how else can you explain the success of Specialized and SRAM?
Il y a longtemps, in the French sense Shimano broke in with a floating jockey wheel for gear changes. Kind of a technical patent thing and wiped the floor with Suntour! At that point one component then the next changed the market.... Now manufacturing probably has meant there is a lot of players. Let's see.....
Supurb job Chris with the show in general, but also the top-tier lineup of guests you've managed to get on recently. Shows the respect the youtube cycling crowd is showing the Nero show.
I ride a 2016 synapse carbon with 60mm carbon wheels. My mates have all gone down the aero route. Over an hour of fast riding I have never been blown away by anyone on disc brakes. Canondales, venges, tarmacs, and ENondas seen them turn up and got to the coffee stop at the same time. If I ride my winter bike in aluminium wheels with my mates I have to draft longer and work harder as I’m about 2 -4 minutes slower on most of our courses.
@@ChrisMillerCycling I’m quite e happy on 25s on rim brake bikes but ride 30 , 30 on disc to dial out the high frequency buzz. Disc frames I have ridden are much stiffer and without a fat tyre I get numb hands and feet. Great show by the way really enjoys it
100 percent agree I have the 2018 old canyon aeroad rim brake, and I have ridden the new expensive disk brake bikes and the canyon is by far better and faster … aero, 7.0kg with ultrega di2
I'm also curious about how exactly the claimed aero gains are arrived at by specialized. I assume they always use best-case scenario testing procedures to make the numbers as large as possible and ignore real world practicalities. For example, SL8 vs SL7 they claim 4w from the integrated bar/stem alone (incidentally almost exactly their overall 40km ITT number). But probably 99% of riders who will ride that bar will put computer in front of the bar, which then moves the leading edge of the bike forward of the stem/bolt interface on the SL7. I would imagine if you tested both bars with a garmin mounted, you'd find less of an advantage for the fully integrated setup than if you tested without.
Well done gents, fantastic chat. Appreciate the editing effort, Chris - I imagine it’s not easy to achieve with the timing lag when chatting between continents, but you were able to edit that brilliantly. Also, Alex does know his audience.. winspace hyper wheels rider here 😂
Very interesting show this week guys. Alex clearly knows his stuff. Cycling is a really awesome sport because there’s so much to it, it has a discipline to suit everyone, there’s all sorts of tech, training and fashion and things to talk about and argue over. Cycling is life.
really love and respect what Alex is saying in regards to how we can't see aero and aero testing (caveat being Adrian Newey 🐐) as well as bringing in aero packages and how they interact with the whole system including the rider. The whole aero system was also something Newey mentioned in his book how to build a racecar. Very open, critical and inquisitive engineering view.
It's worth noting that Specialized were very crafty in comparing the Venge Vias to the Tarmac SL(5?) on its release rather than the original Venge. PT rightly expressed doubt that an aero bike could be that much faster than another aero bike, indeed the 2019 Venge that followed made very modest claims. Jesse did allude to the comparison being to the Tarmac, where a big double digit saving might be expected.
Awesome video and discussions, one of my favorite ones in past months 👍opposing to Jesse's recommendation I actually did a 740km / 25h non-stop ride on my Hyper 65mm wheels and survived 🙂
On the wider rims (reserve's): isnt it like the Hope track bike idea? One group thinks everything as thin as possible but you'll have the rider back there so... and the other goes for:see it as one system and the wheel and fork influence the air around the legs etc etc
I found this channel couple of years ago through Jesse's training videos and enjoyed the content as Nero Racing Team trying to crack Europe - but the re-branding to a chatshow/topical podcast style channel has me staying on waiting for every video. Great show guys!
This podcast scratched so many itches, great job guys. And yeah Hambini does love a bit of trolling but i have a couple of chats with him away from the youtube scene and he does come across as a sound guy to me, i dont drink but would happily have a pint or two with him. I kinda wish Mike Burrows was still around, he used to visit Bikefix a lot when i was there and had some great chats with him he was such a nice guy and i would love to put PT, Hambini, Dan Bigham, Allen Millyard and Mike Burrows in a room together and just listen to them put the world of cycling to rights and see what they could come up with. That would be my bike engineering dreamteam.
Simply and incredibly - this was awesome, guys. Could listen to you all for 8 hours...easily. So much learned, explained, discussed. Please make a follow-up or next episode with Alex in the future, if you can. Will be waiting for it.
100% on the China factory situation in regards to engineering and quality control. I worked directly with Asia factories for a different industry and we used to travel to the factory's before products would be released for shipment to us in the states. Very often we would run into issues that effected the safety of the product and rejected the parts. The factory would either have to rework the product or scrap them. What would happen is they would end up selling the product direct through gray market outlets. I would not, under any circumstances, buy a carbon bike or wheel set direct from Asia. I would and have bought Asia manufactured frames and wheels, but through a reputable company that does in-house design and QC.
I have to confirm the denial of the 'bike shop effect'. In Belgium we are so densely populated, and we have so many shops, that no one who knows anything about bikes or even just had a discussion with a friend would base his decission on which brand 'the local shop' sells.
started watching but didnt think i'd stick for 90mins...and here I am at the end...great conversation, thanks to all....PS my University lectures are rambling observations too...but with solid knowledge and experience 😉
Very interesting, especially since you got in really deep in some subjects. What i like the most about you is that you don't repeat the mainstream marketing crap many goes on and contributing to creating a mutual agreed truth about stuff without questioning.
I’d like to hear a discussion on yaw angle also. Wheel and frame manufacturers are always releasing data of watts saved at 10, 12, and even 20° yaw angles when rarely in an outdoor environment you’re going to experience anything over 7-8° of yaw angle at 35kph+. It’s the biggest marketing scam that no one talks about. Everytime I see those wheel charts with yaw angle I cringe. Makes me second guess all of these Aero Frame claims from the past 5yrs after seeing this new SL8 drop.
I think you guys twisted some info in the beginning, at 00:01:12 you are explaining tha the original Venge Vias was saving 2 min over their previous road bike and that the later Venge was 8sec faster and the SL8 another 3.5sec. But going further you suddenly say that the SL8 was saving over 2min compared to the Vias? Should the differenc ebetween Venge Vias and SL8 not be only 12 seconds? Maybe i got it wrong.
I’m amused by the marketing when very little of it looks at the bike and rider as a system. Peak Torque does have this point of view. How many seconds and grams are saved by an excellent aero bike fit and core strengthening or optimizing body mass vs power output or countless other factors that probably have more effect than the bike (socks, ski suits, helmets, etc…) Sure the bikes important but how tilted your head is or how parallel your forearms are to road and such things doesn’t sell more bikes.
Bike companies sell bikes, not yoga classes. And the modern man wants to buy speed, not earn speed. Just like we want magic pills to fix all our problems
Hey Jesse, your comments at 10:00 re Chris at Heffron. Did you normalise Chris's performance (NP) against speed? So he Is still doing the same NP from 8 years ago on a non aero bike but the field is going faster so needs the same NP
Re Ganna why not keep the 114mm Q and just add a spacer to pedal to make it wider? You keep the aero benefit of the crank being in close but the biomechanics for Ganna can suit his hips better. Am I missing something here?
I just build 2 sl8 total costs $10,800. I agree 100% that frame only is the way to go. Only think I disagree is that handlebar. Without it looks ugly. But finding that handlebar is 0%.
Peak Torque i love not afraid to speak the truth no BS both Chris and Jesse could learn from this interview you cannot sit of the fence forever Guys this was a top video covering so many important aspects of the bike industry to day Thanks.
@@ChrisMillerCyclingMaybe they mean how Chris will make a point or argument and Jesse disagrees and gives a counter or vice versa? So maybe as a group you’re “on the fence”? I think you two try hard to give both sides of the argument, even if it’s just one person playing devil’s advocate. I appreciate this. I love the show. Love the point / counterpoint, no.. but, yes.. and your awareness of your biases and attempts to try and understand other cyclists in their opinions/ biases/etc..
I think with LTwo, they are thinking like a modern software company where new features and capabilities come out every month and there doesn't need to be a hard line identifying a release. The problem is they aren't a software company and you cannot just update someones physical hardware and get them to the latest version / capabilities. As a consumer they look appealing but its difficult to know what you're getting and what if some huge update comes out next month? I'm paying the same price but am not gonna an 'update' to get the same features / capabilities because my hardware cannot change.
Glad you got PT on! Have him on again soon and longer! Im working through his back catalog and heard him make a reference along the lines of: This the type of thing that gets Jesse from the Nero Show all fired up. And I thought, ahh! He is aware of the boys at Nero.
Great show, really appreciate PT's technical insight. Now for the flip-side of the 'no BS engineering tell it how it is' coin and get Dr Hambini and his wonderful coiffured bonnet on the show!
I've been looking for an engineer to discuss the feeling of a carbon spoke vs steel and found it here. I couldn't agree with you more on carbon spokes being too stiff. I find that they don't dampen the road as nicely as steel spokes and induce a strange feeling on the bike handling.
One other monumental downfall of aero bikes that nobody thinks about is the true reach. If you draw a straight line up from the centre of the bottom bracket and measure from the middle of the seat, aero bikes are nearly 10cm further back than a road bike. This closes your hip angle by a huge amount. If you're a bigger power rider, you're at a huge disadvantage after 15-20 miles. That's why they are so uncomfortable and so unviable for most riders. You simply cannot push power from that area of the body continuously over a normal ride.
Fascinating chat! In particular, the quality control, hookless and tire width portions. And hearing Ganna's power data doesn't mean anything to me but Chris' reaction tells me what I need to know.
Maybe optimal bike today is a used 2-3 yr old frame only and 2-3 year old parts, built yourself. I imagine it could be about quarter to a third the price for comparable spec ($3-4000 vs $12-14,000)
If Dan Bigham saye its faster its faster !!! Great you had PT on love how he gets a bit nerdie about stuff but still makes it relatable for us average people 😊
Credit to these guys! Turned this around very fast. Can confirm that Chris can get it up very quickly 🎉 even as a cyclist
Few comments to add: The easy answer to the 305W NP questions is - it doesn't get easier you and everyone else just get faster. The avg. speed of the bunch I bet has gone up I bet over the years.
Secondly, Mr Bigham has been on the phone to say every GC leader should ride an aero bike. While the CFD says deep in the bunch there is up to a 95% drag reduction, the ride files don't show that, which he has access to :)
Some more comments about tubeless - the tubeless center channel depth is really important when it comes to safety, yes you can make it deeper for easy installation (and the bead seat diameter can be the same at the wall) but if the bead slips down into the deeper channel under total pressure loss it is equally easy for the tyre to come off!
😈
🍆
I've been hoping for this one for a while. Great to see you on; and I loved that you grabbed the calculator as soon as Jesse started asking watts numbers :D
I’m here to confirm Chris can’t get it up. Jesse tho? Rock hard.
Gay.
Me: 2 TH-cam influencers find peak torque more attractive than me.
Hairdresser: They must be men!!!
Well this love triangle has had a divorce now @Hambini.
How is this podcast just getting better and better?! This is probably my favorite episode so far. Please have PT back on again. Great job boys!
PeakTorque has my full respect. Sending it with humility, honesty and facts. Very very rare in this world of TH-cam.
He said it! “You can’t cheat the physics” should be PTs tag line 😅. Great episode
Wow, this was my absolutely favorite episode! Great job to all 3 of you. As an engineer, I am in absolute awe of how well Alex can explain such complex topics and make it seem so interesting. He is a fantastic teacher. Keep up the good work with the podcast guys! you're absolutely right, the goal is to generate the conversation, and not cover 100% of the details.
Our pleasure!
If he grew a mullet out he’d be an absolute god!
I started this thinking "no way am I gonna get through an hour and a half".... got to the end like "wait yall are done already?" Great stuff, pod keeps getting better and better.
This was the best episode yet-hands down.
and one with joe china cycling
The episode we’ve all been waiting for! You guys are absolutely killing it, best pod on cycling YT.
Finally
Truth!
Probably one of the best episodes you've done. Thanks for all these amazing insights!
Wow, thanks!
Loved the longer format and being able to hear Alex's viewpoints on multiple topics. Alex's depth of knowledge came across even better than it does in his own channel.
Great to hear!
Interesting discussion. As an F1 analyst, Ive bern struggling to understand this ‘aero’ issue, all of sudden bike manufacturers, and especially many cycling enthusiasts I met on the road becoming aero experts. In F1, even big names like Scuderia Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren DO make mistakes in understanding aero. Those teams have enormous budget & state-of-the-art wind tunnels & R&D by reputable engineering teams. Not to mention carbon layup, where to make it stiff & where to ‘cheat’ (heard of flexi wing?). This is a very good video with substantial discussion 👍
The real reason enthusiasts want aero bikes is because aero bikes are neat looking.
Correct, fact of the matter is, wearing a pair of $25 aero socks reduces drag by more than the SL8 Roval stem and bar combo, but people want the bike anyway because its prestigious.
@@NikeonaBikebut with cockpit + aero sock You have more aero than socks only
Excellent. You guys keep raising the bar on vid podcasts that are worth watching.
Glad you enjoy it!
@@ChrisMillerCycling Very impressed with the 'common man' application from PT. He is only the second guy I have heard mention the 'stacked springs' idea on a bike and that things are too stiff most of the time. I have a saying that I think applies to most situations and most people riding a bike: "Smoother is faster". I do a lot of gravel riding, often on review bikes, carbon wheels, etc, and that really is a case where compliance is nearly always faster overall. And I am just now planning a new road bike build and contemplating 32s and a shallow carbon wheel for road. For where I live and how I ride, I think it is a smart choice, but I keep getting distracted by the 'shiny rocks' that modern bike marketing tosses out. We shall see. Thanks for the food for thought.
🔥These TH-camr collaborations are always the best episodes.
I'd love for you to dive into your hefron park data set and see if the speed has changed over the years. If everyone else has swapped from round tube bikes to aero rigs over the last 10 years then maybe everyone is still pushing the same power as always, but the pack is going a little bit faster? Rather than expecting Chris's watts to drop as if he's in isolation and the only one on a faster bike. Potentially the same reason why pro races have gotten a bit quicker over the last 5ish years.
I had the same thought listening to this. And to measure if a bike is “faster” the power input would have to be a controlled constant.
Love the show but wish Jessi would fix his camera. The image is always reversed in the split screen shots ( but correct inthe solo shots).
@PeakTorque I believe you misunderstood the analysis WRT the venge vias. It was 2 mins faster compared to what it replaced (Specialized Tarmac SL5 I believe). Then the venge was a smidge faster and the SL8 is claimed to be a smidge faster still. That's all with respect to the SL5 Tarmac, not the venge vias.
Since aerodynamics is so personal (and manufacture claims are so dubious), I test my gear a velodrome. I measure the watts required to ride at a given speed. Then do it again with the new gear at the same speed. If I don’t see meaningful watts saved, then I return or resell the product. Job done
Great episode gentlemen; easily in the top 5 of all-time for the Nero Show. Recommend at least quarterly collaborations with PT. I’m personally a big fan of PT as well. I think your approaches to subjects relating with our sport are complimentary. Presents a very researched approach & useful contrast to questionable industry directions. Again, very solid episode! Cheers!
Great suggestion!
Great work pulling in Peak Torque. Such good information.
Glad it was helpful!
Edit: great video! loved it, what a star line-up of guests you've got on here
Additional comment: The Hefron Park analysis has a faulty premise. CMiller is able to do 305 W normalized for the race, and with a faster bike he's just going to be going faster for that same power. His placings might not have improved much (if at all), because his competition will have also been slowly upgrading to more aero bikes (presumably).
What I'd like to see whether the average speed of these races has tended to increase over the years, because with constant normalized power that would be indicative of aerodynamics having improved overall.
I hope you guys paid attention, "smaller, slimmer the front tire the faster you go" the rest is pure marketing :P I am still using my 23mm oldddddd continental GP4000 until they rot, after that i will test the GP5000 TR like Alex told us to do :)
I think a good example of a large rider who focused on system aero was Adam Hansen. He would ride the Helium over the Noah with negative stem, wild drop to the 38cm bars all to get low and narrow. Did have the 35mm bars for stiffness/weight (sponsor), imagine that would be integrated now if it could be had with the negative stem.
This show seriously needs a disclaimer of “we’re just guessing but try to keep it entertaining”.
Is it just me confused at the start of the vid? Is it not the venge spaceship with the dodgy brakes was 2 mins faster than the previous bike that was never named? So the SL8 is only 12 seconds faster than that original venge?
It was the Venge Vias. It was never compared to the original Venge upon release, McLaren and Specialized carefully chose to pit it against the Tarmac.
In other words, the SL8 is allegedly 33w faster than the Tarman SL4
Jess Coyle may excel as a bike rider but not in the empirical sciences. As you point out, what is the original datum, a house brick!
Excellent points here;
a) 33W gain of SL8 over Venge Vias is clearly ridiculous. Specialized need to respond to this or risk looking stupid.
b) small riders benefit more from weight and aero savings. Fact, but little known.
c) Blowout video - I took it down because some people were reacting aggressively towards me which I really don't need. My YT videos are sporadic, crap and a hobby, nothing more. And also because I wanted to wait for some feedback from Conti, which I now have. So will reinstate the video with updates.
The segment about the aero gain is kinda confusing. Because it isn't SL8 vs Venge Vias it's SL8 vs some bike before the Venge Vias. Jessy doesn't really say which bike that Venge Vias gained 2 minutes over.
Only in wind tunnel. In real world condition is lottery (to many variables and air turbulences)!
Thank God someone has finally pointed out that aero savings in the bunch is basically zero. Imagine all those pros choosing the aero bike and sitting in the bunch all day. Thanks TP
But on solo ride/TT ride aero matters
@@Pablo_Coach you’re right it does, but at the speeds amateurs ride at barely anything.
@@pantster9855 some amateurs riding at 37-40 kmph avg so it matter at that speeds. Aero matters from 20kmph
@@Pablo_Coach VERY FEW amateurs are riding at 37-40kph SOLO for extended periods of time and even then most manufacturers quote savings based on speeds around 45-50kph. That may not seem like much but form (aerodynamic) drag is a function of speed squared so actually it is. For the vast majority of regular riders it might be 4-5 watts MAX saving, then factor in if it’s a hilly route it could be nothing (or less). As PT says body position saves you far more
My point still stands. I agreed with you that an aero bike can benefit those riding alone. A pro (or amateur) riding in a bunch gets zero benefit. The one who truly benefits is a pro going on the break as they’re solo & can maintain the speeds where the claimed aero benefits can be realised
@@pantster9855 im average amateur and riding my local 60km loop at avg 38kmph, I started riding bikes at age of 37 and now I have 42 (all my past live is without any spor, activity). So many amateur in hood shape riding at 40avg
Lol y’all are 100% talking about me with the whole “But tbis is made specifically for this frame!” *Looks over at my Reserve Wheel and Soloist*
you guys continually get the best guests TH-cam has to offer. Officially THE BEST cycling podcast EVER. Kudos.
Great episode boys! Well done. Learned a lot about my own BS a few times in this. I gotta stop being a cycling diva lol
Bloody heck I don’t remember a more engrossing informative discussion as this one in a
long time. Spot on..🎉.
I enjoyed this discussion… probably one of the best you’ve done… I hope you have Alex on again…. 🍻
I hope so too!
Could listen to Alex talk bikes & relevant engineering practices all day. Stellar guest
This was one of you best! Such an interesting conversation. Thanks guys.
I quite like PT in this format. Definitely one of the best episodes so far.
Would love to hear Bikotic on the show and listen to Chris and Jesse pick his brain on frame geometry and western brands that are sharing moulds.
An aerobikes main benefit is that the stack is lower so the rider can run the stem more slammed for a more aero position if they can handle it
Hookless: thank you for confirming my suspicions. Still the best cycling talk podcast. 👏
Alex is just someone I could listen to for days. Clever guy.
Listened to the podcast but came here to comment: this is one of the best if not the very best episode of any cycling related podcasts I have ever heard... Up there with the early Silca (Josh) marginal gains episodes. So much free game from a guy with a lot of knowledge. ❤ I love you Nero Show keep up the good work!!!
Superb. The cycling industry is a total mess. Endless unproven BS claims. The whole community benefits from people like Alex. This is the direction you guys should target. Real talk. No marketing/sponsor shilling. Actual science backed information. Same as what Jesse does with his training content.
Wow im amazed. Body position is more important than the bike. Groundbreaking stuff.
Aren’t some of the aero claims on many aero bikes in the past include narrowing the bars and position ? The 2 min claim might be a tarmac 42 cm bars vs 38 cm venge. This assumes the OEM isn’t lying.
BEST SHOW so far Thanks PT,JC and CM
Forgot to commend last week but just wanted to say the bikeotic channel is awesome and I’m glad he got a shoutout!
I think there is some confusion in those times. What was probably meant to be said was that the Venge VIAS is 2 min faster than the SL4 or SL5 Tarmac. Peak torque explained the times as of the last discontinued Venge was 2 min faster than the Venge VIAS. Which its not, that is only 8 seconds faster... And then its not 33 watts, its just 3 watts faster (if you use 4sec per watt)
My father has been working with carbon as a engineer for years all this bikes are extremely overpriced. Plus I know two bike owners who tell me what that bikes cost to Make and the crazy mark up sale prices in bike stores. I get this information as I work in finance for one of biggest banks in the world. The whole industry is a rip off. The only way the prices will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices
"...will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices"
And that will only happen if somehow marketing bullspeak stops working. PT Barnum was right!
Marketing trumps everything - how else can you explain the success of Specialized and SRAM?
Or if someone like yourself and your dad create a company that proves it can be done at a lower cost and still make a profit.
Il y a longtemps, in the French sense Shimano broke in with a floating jockey wheel for gear changes. Kind of a technical patent thing and wiped the floor with Suntour! At that point one component then the next changed the market.... Now manufacturing probably has meant there is a lot of players. Let's see.....
Supurb job Chris with the show in general, but also the top-tier lineup of guests you've managed to get on recently. Shows the respect the youtube cycling crowd is showing the Nero show.
We have been very lucky have these guys reaching out and keen to be apart of the show. Alex is a pure gent
On of the best shows i have seen in this channel! Peak Torque is elevating yours in Galaxies
I ride a 2016 synapse carbon with 60mm carbon wheels. My mates have all gone down the aero route. Over an hour of fast riding I have never been blown away by anyone on disc brakes. Canondales, venges, tarmacs, and ENondas seen them turn up and got to the coffee stop at the same time. If I ride my winter bike in aluminium wheels with my mates I have to draft longer and work harder as I’m about 2 -4 minutes slower on most of our courses.
Sounds great!
@@ChrisMillerCycling I’m quite e happy on 25s on rim brake bikes but ride 30 , 30 on disc to dial out the high frequency buzz. Disc frames I have ridden are much stiffer and without a fat tyre I get numb hands and feet.
Great show by the way really enjoys it
100 percent agree I have the 2018 old canyon aeroad rim brake, and I have ridden the new expensive disk brake bikes and the canyon is by far better and faster … aero, 7.0kg with ultrega di2
well explained at 28:00 !! Industry quality process ... tanks for that. Gives a deep explanation to professionel process!
Great episode!
This has become probably my fav cycling podcast in the last few weeks
Glad you enjoy it!
So good to have PeakTorque on the show. Great job! This was the bomb!
I'm also curious about how exactly the claimed aero gains are arrived at by specialized. I assume they always use best-case scenario testing procedures to make the numbers as large as possible and ignore real world practicalities. For example, SL8 vs SL7 they claim 4w from the integrated bar/stem alone (incidentally almost exactly their overall 40km ITT number). But probably 99% of riders who will ride that bar will put computer in front of the bar, which then moves the leading edge of the bike forward of the stem/bolt interface on the SL7. I would imagine if you tested both bars with a garmin mounted, you'd find less of an advantage for the fully integrated setup than if you tested without.
Same situation with external cables - they may reduce drag in real life 😉
Well done gents, fantastic chat. Appreciate the editing effort, Chris - I imagine it’s not easy to achieve with the timing lag when chatting between continents, but you were able to edit that brilliantly.
Also, Alex does know his audience.. winspace hyper wheels rider here 😂
Hey BT, thanks for the kind words on the edit, I can confirm the lagging was ‘challenging’ 😉
Very interesting show this week guys. Alex clearly knows his stuff. Cycling is a really awesome sport because there’s so much to it, it has a discipline to suit everyone, there’s all sorts of tech, training and fashion and things to talk about and argue over. Cycling is life.
Glad you enjoyed it!
really love and respect what Alex is saying in regards to how we can't see aero and aero testing (caveat being Adrian Newey 🐐) as well as bringing in aero packages and how they interact with the whole system including the rider. The whole aero system was also something Newey mentioned in his book how to build a racecar. Very open, critical and inquisitive engineering view.
It's worth noting that Specialized were very crafty in comparing the Venge Vias to the Tarmac SL(5?) on its release rather than the original Venge. PT rightly expressed doubt that an aero bike could be that much faster than another aero bike, indeed the 2019 Venge that followed made very modest claims. Jesse did allude to the comparison being to the Tarmac, where a big double digit saving might be expected.
Came here to say the same thing.. SL8 not 2+ faster than the Vias but the big round tube SL5
@@TheeMortgageGuySL8 have round tubes 😂
Awesome video and discussions, one of my favorite ones in past months 👍opposing to Jesse's recommendation I actually did a 740km / 25h non-stop ride on my Hyper 65mm wheels and survived 🙂
Yeah no problem with mine either but I ride on smooth Swiss Tarmac so 🤷🏻♂️
This is so much better than that over rated under rated knockoff
On the wider rims (reserve's): isnt it like the Hope track bike idea? One group thinks everything as thin as possible but you'll have the rider back there so... and the other goes for:see it as one system and the wheel and fork influence the air around the legs etc etc
Congrats - the channel has come of age, get Hambini on next 😬😬😬
This pod cast slaps love the Nero show
One of the best editions so far fellas. Thanks!
I found this channel couple of years ago through Jesse's training videos and enjoyed the content as Nero Racing Team trying to crack Europe - but the re-branding to a chatshow/topical podcast style channel has me staying on waiting for every video. Great show guys!
Awesome, thank you!
This podcast scratched so many itches, great job guys. And yeah Hambini does love a bit of trolling but i have a couple of chats with him away from the youtube scene and he does come across as a sound guy to me, i dont drink but would happily have a pint or two with him. I kinda wish Mike Burrows was still around, he used to visit Bikefix a lot when i was there and had some great chats with him he was such a nice guy and i would love to put PT, Hambini, Dan Bigham, Allen Millyard and Mike Burrows in a room together and just listen to them put the world of cycling to rights and see what they could come up with. That would be my bike engineering dreamteam.
Simply and incredibly - this was awesome, guys. Could listen to you all for 8 hours...easily. So much learned, explained, discussed. Please make a follow-up or next episode with Alex in the future, if you can. Will be waiting for it.
100% on the China factory situation in regards to engineering and quality control. I worked directly with Asia factories for a different industry and we used to travel to the factory's before products would be released for shipment to us in the states. Very often we would run into issues that effected the safety of the product and rejected the parts. The factory would either have to rework the product or scrap them. What would happen is they would end up selling the product direct through gray market outlets. I would not, under any circumstances, buy a carbon bike or wheel set direct from Asia. I would and have bought Asia manufactured frames and wheels, but through a reputable company that does in-house design and QC.
….not to mention all of the other problems associated with an autocratic government where integrity and standards mean very little.
And they got behind with supply due to lockdowns so they got things out as quick as they could
I have to confirm the denial of the 'bike shop effect'. In Belgium we are so densely populated, and we have so many shops, that no one who knows anything about bikes or even just had a discussion with a friend would base his decission on which brand 'the local shop' sells.
started watching but didnt think i'd stick for 90mins...and here I am at the end...great conversation, thanks to all....PS my University lectures are rambling observations too...but with solid knowledge and experience 😉
We all love Alex! 👍🤙
I gave up on marketing hype years ago but hey- there’s one born every minute so it’s not gonna go away anytime soon.
New fan of Alex as soon as he mentioned Winspace Hypers. 🎉🎉
'these youtube experts are actually the best in the field' -Jesse Coyle
Very interesting, especially since you got in really deep in some subjects. What i like the most about you is that you don't repeat the mainstream marketing crap many goes on and contributing to creating a mutual agreed truth about stuff without questioning.
Great content! Best video yet. Excellent questions and discussion. It’d be great to see Peak in the regular rotation of guests.
Thank you for this episode. I really enjoy the coversationnal yet educationnal style.
Best and most compelling one yet. Thanks for putting this together.
The best ever episode! Keep bring this other islander to the show! Three islanders on a talk show as hosts and another one watching them (Hawaii)!
I’d like to hear a discussion on yaw angle also. Wheel and frame manufacturers are always releasing data of watts saved at 10, 12, and even 20° yaw angles when rarely in an outdoor environment you’re going to experience anything over 7-8° of yaw angle at 35kph+. It’s the biggest marketing scam that no one talks about. Everytime I see those wheel charts with yaw angle I cringe. Makes me second guess all of these Aero Frame claims from the past 5yrs after seeing this new SL8 drop.
You mean that SL8 is good aero optimised frame? (round tunes in places where aero not matters - low yaw angle)
I think you guys twisted some info in the beginning, at 00:01:12 you are explaining tha the original Venge Vias was saving 2 min over their previous road bike and that the later Venge was 8sec faster and the SL8 another 3.5sec. But going further you suddenly say that the SL8 was saving over 2min compared to the Vias? Should the differenc ebetween Venge Vias and SL8 not be only 12 seconds? Maybe i got it wrong.
Great great great podcast, we need Alex back again. Thanks Chris and Jesse!!!!!
I’m amused by the marketing when very little of it looks at the bike and rider as a system. Peak Torque does have this point of view. How many seconds and grams are saved by an excellent aero bike fit and core strengthening or optimizing body mass vs power output or countless other factors that probably have more effect than the bike (socks, ski suits, helmets, etc…) Sure the bikes important but how tilted your head is or how parallel your forearms are to road and such things doesn’t sell more bikes.
Bike companies sell bikes, not yoga classes. And the modern man wants to buy speed, not earn speed. Just like we want magic pills to fix all our problems
Hey Jesse, your comments at 10:00 re Chris at Heffron. Did you normalise Chris's performance (NP) against speed? So he Is still doing the same NP from 8 years ago on a non aero bike but the field is going faster so needs the same NP
Re Ganna why not keep the 114mm Q and just add a spacer to pedal to make it wider? You keep the aero benefit of the crank being in close but the biomechanics for Ganna can suit his hips better. Am I missing something here?
A few months back I bought a previous gen rim brake aeroad. Makes me feel better about my purchase
Awesome episode! Keep up the great work, it's always the one video of the week I'm looking forward to
Glad you enjoy it!
I just build 2 sl8 total costs $10,800. I agree 100% that frame only is the way to go. Only think I disagree is that handlebar. Without it looks ugly. But finding that handlebar is 0%.
Peak Torque i love not afraid to speak the truth no BS both Chris and Jesse could learn from this interview you cannot sit of the fence forever Guys this was a top video covering so many important aspects of the bike industry to day Thanks.
Wow! Haven’t had too many people complain we are not opinionated enough
@@ChrisMillerCyclingMaybe they mean how Chris will make a point or argument and Jesse disagrees and gives a counter or vice versa? So maybe as a group you’re “on the fence”?
I think you two try hard to give both sides of the argument, even if it’s just one person playing devil’s advocate.
I appreciate this. I love the show. Love the point / counterpoint, no.. but, yes.. and your awareness of your biases and attempts to try and understand other cyclists in their opinions/ biases/etc..
I think with LTwo, they are thinking like a modern software company where new features and capabilities come out every month and there doesn't need to be a hard line identifying a release. The problem is they aren't a software company and you cannot just update someones physical hardware and get them to the latest version / capabilities. As a consumer they look appealing but its difficult to know what you're getting and what if some huge update comes out next month? I'm paying the same price but am not gonna an 'update' to get the same features / capabilities because my hardware cannot change.
I arrived at the same conclusion.
I was thinking "LTwoo this ain't software".
Kudo's everyone, Chris and Jessie brought out a very interesting side of Alex (Peak Torque)
Alex the sound mixing on microphone is sensational. I could listen to your voice all day..
Believe it or not, that was his MacBook Pro audio run through a noise gate and EQ on Final Cut Pro. I think he just has the perfect pod voice.
Glad you got PT on! Have him on again soon and longer!
Im working through his back catalog and heard him make a reference along the lines of:
This the type of thing that gets Jesse from the Nero Show all fired up.
And I thought, ahh! He is aware of the boys at Nero.
Great show, really appreciate PT's technical insight. Now for the flip-side of the 'no BS engineering tell it how it is' coin and get Dr Hambini and his wonderful coiffured bonnet on the show!
I thought that's what the H word was going to be! 😅
Could have been.... Anyway, hookless, a solution to a problem which didn't exist!!
I've been looking for an engineer to discuss the feeling of a carbon spoke vs steel and found it here. I couldn't agree with you more on carbon spokes being too stiff. I find that they don't dampen the road as nicely as steel spokes and induce a strange feeling on the bike handling.
One other monumental downfall of aero bikes that nobody thinks about is the true reach. If you draw a straight line up from the centre of the bottom bracket and measure from the middle of the seat, aero bikes are nearly 10cm further back than a road bike. This closes your hip angle by a huge amount. If you're a bigger power rider, you're at a huge disadvantage after 15-20 miles. That's why they are so uncomfortable and so unviable for most riders. You simply cannot push power from that area of the body continuously over a normal ride.
Fascinating chat! In particular, the quality control, hookless and tire width portions. And hearing Ganna's power data doesn't mean anything to me but Chris' reaction tells me what I need to know.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Maybe optimal bike today is a used 2-3 yr old frame only and 2-3 year old parts, built yourself. I imagine it could be about quarter to a third the price for comparable spec ($3-4000 vs $12-14,000)
If Dan Bigham saye its faster its faster !!!
Great you had PT on love how he gets a bit nerdie about stuff but still makes it relatable for us average people 😊
I’m glad you are bring smart people to chat with.