all map names (and their respective collabs) are mentioned in the description if you want to play them !! this took Multiple Months to make pretty much working on this every day, would appreciate any interactions, i rly want this to do well :3 Also Correction: the solution i mentioned at 9:39 for aqueduct final room is actually cheese, the intended solution does not involve the battery grabs to climb up, rather you'd need to use the screen transition TWICE to do what i did. kinda unfortunate i didnt realise this because this intended solution is So Much Cooler and wouldve helped me emphasize the point on screen transitions more, anyways some other notes ill add here about the video itself: -i'm unsure about the approach i took here where i kinda did spoil a bit of each map by explaining atleast 1 room (with some having me explain multiple puzzles) which like, i get that it is kind of spoiling part of the experience of figuring out those rooms for the people that may have wanted to play those maps. but also i think it is very important to discuss atleast 1 example from each map to get a gist or it and understand what makes the maps good or bad, idk -i probably should have put more emphasis on the complexity of Break My ivory Tower, it is so beyond anything else to where it deserves more screen time -i dont think Dropzle is that great honestly its probably my least favourite map of the video if we forget about crystal enigma, not to say its bad or anything but i think as others mentioned it is pretty tedious (especially final room) and annoying to play, along with not being very interesting and kinda just, boring with the basic mechanics -the entire FFFFF section of this video is a bit weak, i dont think its really much of a puzzle aside from a few rooms anyways -Birdsong is honestly extremely creative, couldnt dedicate a section for it because video length but i love the idea of disabling ground refills and using the shielded feathers for refills, the routing is so unexpected from what youd expect at first with the order of operations
But then I had a very good idea. I used f5. See, using f5 gave me a whole new perspective and I was able to reach a touch switch I couldn't have reached before.
this but for center cam tbh but then i had a very good idea, i used ctrl+m. See, using ctrl+m gave me a whole new perspective and i was able to see a touch switch i couldn't have seen before
AWESOME video, oh my lord! I’m probably biased but you discussed a ton of awesome celeste maps and did a really good job at boiling down their mechanics effectively! We definitely need to see more and I hope this video gets morr people interested in puzzle maps whether they like it or not😊 Side note, I actually planned on making a longer version of abandoned aqueduct? It has been on the backburner for a while though - and you actually cheesed the final room via battery grabs, theres actually a second room transition required to get the battery up there. but yeah sick video!!!!!!! that baba is dream map sounds like it kinda sucks though who made that one anyway
i cheesed it ? ?? noooo , looking further into the room rn i Just figured out the intended solution rn yeah thats even cooler than i originally thought, thanks for the comment also !
Heya! Sick ass video! I’m glad puzzle maps are coming into vogue with this community. I’m glad to hear you like Perceptions, tho I agree cp3 was kinda rushed, unfortunately. Celeste needs more puzzle maps!
Great video! There's definitely a good bit of macropuzzle potential that could stem from rooms one can reenter and reset like a mario maker door. I believe there are some maps that do explore this a bit (A Blocked Off Path comes to mind) but I definitely highly look forward to what you're cooking. Also, considering the idea of mario having more "interactions" than celeste, Val once pointed out that mario (specifically SMW) is much more focused on (to use celeste's terminology) Actors like theo or puffers, while Celeste is more focused on blocks. There's still, I think, a lot you can do with blocks (Perceptions) but it's a wholly distinct flavor of puzzle having only a handful of Actors in celeste. P.S. I'm sorry to toot my own horn but if you haven't seen it Misty Grotto, another map of mine, is quite similar to the note-taking puzzle of maze of glass (or at least closer than it is to most celeste gameplay)
As someone who usually prefer celeste puzzle free, i need to shout out Hexagon Force, which haves the player control both madeline and badeline at the same time, which leads to some unique puzzles that only works in celeste. Appriciate the vid as always :)
For SJ, I definitely prefered a gift from the stars and pointless machines over dropzle. Idk they felt more involved and the ambience on dropzle was lackluster (which is also true for pointless machines but still)
im glad youre giving author credit but id really wish youd specify when a map is in a collab, and which. because its really hard to find a map from just a name and an author when its hidden away in a collab (to be clear im also referring to maps that were just shown and not mentioned)
yeah, you can't grab holdables. however you can still slide against certain entities and activate them despite not actually grabbing (for example, zip movers)
thank you for making this into a video instead of just posting the script (i am a celeste player so i cannot read) extremely cool video! very very glad to see more people talking about puzzle maps. as a mapper i will now contribute to the number of puzzle maps by not playtesting my gameplay for readability and then claiming it's a routing puzzle map (this is a joke i do want to \*try\* making a puzzle map at some point now actually)
I can't argue that celeste puzzle maps can and are very creative and good, but Celeste is a precision platformer game and the people who are gonna play these maps are people who have played celeste enough to want to try out custom maps and generally they are people who like precision platforming and not puzzles, in the same way that putting a platforming challenge in a puzzle game would alienate most of its players. The demographic of celeste players who also like puzzles is small. Not to discredit people who make puzzle maps of course, I'm sure they are really good. Reminds me of a negative celeste review I saw once: "Great game, just not for me."
this is really interesting to me because imo a lot of screens in celeste felt like puzzles to begin with, and I really enjoyed the experience of figuring out and pathing both as an intellectual and an execution challenge. Puzzle maps feel like a natural extension of that- like, i get that it's a different experience but im surprised the overlap is so small
23:17 wow what a cool route map for maze of glass i wonder who made that !? also awesome video - there are so many puzzle maps that I've never heard of that i really want to play now. For the maps that I have played, I thought you described their individual strengths (and weaknesses) so well!
i love puzzle maps! they're quite underappreciated and i wish there was more of them and people would enjoy them more instead of writing "i hate dropzle" in the dropzle clear video comment section. problem with making more puzzle maps is that they require such a different skill set to create then normal maps, because you have to make puzzles not extremely tedius but also not extremely boring and i agree we need more eevee helper abuse!!!!!!!! there are soo many eevee helper mechanics that are like not used!!!!! they would even be intresting in non-puzzle maps (core zones, room chests, making things fall like jellies)
Good video. I really like puzzle maps where they restrict your movement and it becomes way more about the puzzle than difficult movement, like Dropzle.
can't believe the celeste community hated puzzle maps so much they cheesed crystal garden instead of routing it and beating it intended smh great video although unfortunately as a celeste player I couldn't solve it
i've dipped my toes into trying to add puzzle-elements-stuff into some maps. I definitely prefer designing routing puzzles and making stuff that's asking the player how they intend to get from points a to b. one of my wip maps has a few puzzles involving spinner deloads, deathwarping, and just, trying to get the player to feel like they're going out of bounds into somewhere they're really not supposed to be. meanwhile another wip is pretty open-ended with a lot of solutions & the idea is that the player has to figure out how they want to optimize their clear, due to the screens being long & littered with spike tech. but I also haven't really gone for making more puzzle puzzles, mostly because I'm really bad at solving puzzle puzzles and I don't really enjoy that gameplay 9 times out of 10, even when they're well made. tho more recently I've been experimenting with less structured gameplay, where you just throw systems at the player without any intended solutions in mind and trust them to be fun.
if you've played any of my maps, you know that I don't make elaborate puzzles. like, the most elaborate puzzles I've made were in the most recently released pack, and it was kinda just a few strawberries where you have to figure out what tech to apply where & some stuff working with spike jump mechanics & zip movers. the most complicated puzzle stuff i've made is definitely way simpler than any of the maps mentioned in the video.
no KoKoDoKo? mention 😔 great video! Puzzle maps are definitely underappreciated glad to see someone talk about them more! Also im sure you know about it but Path of Most Resistance from Chinese New Year Collab 2023 is probably the most interesting mechanic for a puzzle map ive seen so far.
Banger video! I've got a few maps I haven't heard of to try. However I don't think you mentioned where all of these are from? The ones I know are largely in collabs and contests, maybe throw those in the description.
This has been confusing me for a while, I don't really understand the difference between a "routing puzzle" and a regular puzzle. Is it just that routing puzzles have more difficulty in the execution, or is the type of conceptual challenge different, closer to routing a typical platforming map in some way? maybe some combination of the two, or something else entirely?
id say a combination of those 2, theyre closer to typical celeste maps that still have real platforming challenge (for the most part) with 'normal' gameplay, while also having conceptual challenge from the routing and finding the correct way to beat a room. they def feel more like regular celeste maps compared to "true" puzzle maps that play very differently. tho again this entire concept of a routing map isnt well defined and is mostly just Vibes so i can see why this is confusing
wowow, thanks for covering my TAS map!! very happy to hear that it made you want to try TASing yourself (it's not nearly as intimidating as cr33pycat makes it look in that video i promise)
One puzzle map I like that combines some more difficult movement techs is Lost Woods in SJ advanced lobby, it’s very confusing and makes you think a lot while also testing your movement
I have a lot of appreciation for people who make puzzle maps and puzzle maps themselves but I don’t really love playing them. I like them, but I’d rather play a regular map.
As a hardcore puzzle game lover with a taste for extreme difficulty, I'm being honest when I'm saying I have literally never enjoyed a celeste puzzle map, and there are several reasons to dislike them outside of just a distaste for puzzles. A puzzle game lives and dies on its UX, and the celeste engine becomes a horrible mandatory membrane of awkwardness when it's used to express methodical puzzle design. Even if a puzzle is well designed, putting it in a celeste mod sacrifices it. Like I don't want to play a good puzzle if it has annoying separation and abstraction between inputs & gamestate, where there's no undo button and it's a given that there will be an extra few minutes of faff and error after you figure out the solution but haven't actually inputted it into the stodgy construction yet. Crystal Enigma and Dropzle are literally exactly the same to me. I know celeste modders make celeste mods partly because designing levels for a game they already love is more fun for them than making a game from scratch, but look... man, puzzlescript is RIGHT there.
I don't know which puzzle games you played, but the ones I played there were many levels where the solution was so complex that, after figuring it out, it still takes a "few minutes of faff and error" to input the solution correctly by not doing any mistake. I haven't played many puzzle games with undo buttons. I don't see how it's any different from a map like Dropzle, where you will not really die from the hazards after figuring out a solution. I also have a hard time to understand how the celeste engine is, to you, horrible and awkward for making puzzles and that making a puzzle in celeste is "sacrificing" the idea in your opinion. Many maps have proven that you can make a crystal clear puzzle concept in Celeste.
From my point of view, it seems like this problem is more specific to (or at least more prevalent in) Dropzle and Crystal Enigma, which I can definitely get behind since both have a level of tedium that make them frustrating to me. Crystal Enigma has you wait for moving platforms to move while Dropzle has a reliance on dashless movement to get around if you don't want to immediately fail the puzzle as well as a very high potential for missed dash inputs in some rooms. This wouldn't matter to me so much if the puzzles were more simple, which they are in the start of both maps, but by the end they both have one puzzle that takes nearly an entire minute just to execute, not to mention the various ways both can be messed up. I do not think this clunkiness applies to all possible puzzle maps, but in my eyes it definitely applies to these two. Even though it has some of the same problems on a smaller scale, Gift from the Stars, the last of the 3 puzzle maps I've ever played, was a lot more palatable and I actually enjoyed it simply because it felt like there was more of a reason for it to be in Celeste - it played like an actual Celeste level instead of a puzzle test chamber. But honestly, I wouldn't dislike those two maps if they were just placed in a context that made sense instead of being part of a (relatively) casual platforming experience, ruining the quick pace of most people's beginner lobby playthroughs. I don't like the implication that these maps will take about the same amount of effort as their neighbors when they require a higher caliber of skill in a completely different skillset. Even as someone who plays puzzle games, though I can acknowledge the puzzle design of Dropzle is very clever, its complexity just gets lost on me when I'm tired and in the mood for platforming. I would like to see some sort of puzzle collab in the future, I think it could encourage mappers to explore new ideas and maybe even new styles of puzzle mapping while also providing a good space for those maps.
What are your opinions on maps where Celeste movement and mechanics are integrated into the solving of the map, like Kokodoko (or however it's spelled) and Labyrinth Mu? As has been stated already, these maps can't exist with their design outside of Celeste. Like, I get that Labyrinth Mu is more of a routing challenge than a real puzzle but Kokodoko (sp) from what I've seen is equal parts Celeste movement and routing. I dunno. Maybe the marriage of movement and thinking is a pretty specific flavor with a very small audience. But I think there's a lot of potential for design there that can only happen in this game.
correct me if im wrong, but does “annoyinng seperation and abstraction between inputs & gamestate, where theres no undo button, and extra minutes of faff and error” still apply to lots of notable puzzle games in the genre? the portal series comes to mind immediately - its made in valves’ engines, those which up until that point had supported solely shooter games, and you can tell! theres no undo button, and the main mechanic is still a gun, yet portal 1 and 2 have still cemented themselves as iconic games in the puzzle genre! good puzzles can still come out of mediums which arent built around them inherently, i love this game to bits and i wouldnt choose making puzzles in its engine any other way
@@SRN_RL No opinion on labyrinth mu, but I deeply deeply hated KoKoDoKo. the modestly challenging platforming made everything I outlined so much worse. Unless you're dealing with super complex systems and solutions like in bean & nothingness or a zachtronics game, you shouldn't have to spend an extra half hour on a puzzle after you know the solution. I also disagree that its puzzles are based on celeste movement, it's mostly concurrency shenanigans and binary on-off switches with the zip movers. And to @goose.exclamationpoint regarding Portal, yes, its a counterexample, but it's also so so far from the best that the puzzle genre has to offer, partly because of those limitations. Also, Portal never became challenging enough to be nearly as aggravating as most celeste puzzle maps. I think I am being taken too literally regarding the "the puzzle is sacrificed for being in celeste" point. I don't mean that the puzzle should have been copypasted into unity, obviously the puzzles need celeste in order to exist, but that doesn't change the fact that they're invariably worse for being in celeste, that their existence in celeste represents several negative points for which a map could only ever succeed in spite. I also wanted to offer a counterpoint to the horrible "celeste players don't like thinking" point in the video, because that's obviously not the reason for me.
![[BAD] How Celeste's Most Infamous Mod Was Beaten](/img/n.gif)
all map names (and their respective collabs) are mentioned in the description if you want to play them !!
this took Multiple Months to make pretty much working on this every day, would appreciate any interactions, i rly want this to do well :3
Also Correction: the solution i mentioned at 9:39 for aqueduct final room is actually cheese, the intended solution does not involve the battery grabs to climb up, rather you'd need to use the screen transition TWICE to do what i did. kinda unfortunate i didnt realise this because this intended solution is So Much Cooler and wouldve helped me emphasize the point on screen transitions more,
anyways some other notes ill add here about the video itself:
-i'm unsure about the approach i took here where i kinda did spoil a bit of each map by explaining atleast 1 room (with some having me explain multiple puzzles) which like, i get that it is kind of spoiling part of the experience of figuring out those rooms for the people that may have wanted to play those maps. but also i think it is very important to discuss atleast 1 example from each map to get a gist or it and understand what makes the maps good or bad, idk
-i probably should have put more emphasis on the complexity of Break My ivory Tower, it is so beyond anything else to where it deserves more screen time
-i dont think Dropzle is that great honestly its probably my least favourite map of the video if we forget about crystal enigma, not to say its bad or anything but i think as others mentioned it is pretty tedious (especially final room) and annoying to play, along with not being very interesting and kinda just, boring with the basic mechanics
-the entire FFFFF section of this video is a bit weak, i dont think its really much of a puzzle aside from a few rooms anyways
-Birdsong is honestly extremely creative, couldnt dedicate a section for it because video length but i love the idea of disabling ground refills and using the shielded feathers for refills, the routing is so unexpected from what youd expect at first with the order of operations
But then I had a very good idea. I used f5. See, using f5 gave me a whole new perspective and I was able to reach a touch switch I couldn't have reached before.
this but for center cam tbh
but then i had a very good idea, i used ctrl+m. See, using ctrl+m gave me a whole new perspective and i was able to see a touch switch i couldn't have seen before
how did this meme get into a celeste video's comment section
@@dorijanlendvaj8356 because kenadian is awesome
AWESOME video, oh my lord! I’m probably biased but you discussed a ton of awesome celeste maps and did a really good job at boiling down their mechanics effectively! We definitely need to see more and I hope this video gets morr people interested in puzzle maps whether they like it or not😊
Side note, I actually planned on making a longer version of abandoned aqueduct? It has been on the backburner for a while though - and you actually cheesed the final room via battery grabs, theres actually a second room transition required to get the battery up there.
but yeah sick video!!!!!!! that baba is dream map sounds like it kinda sucks though who made that one anyway
i cheesed it ? ?? noooo , looking further into the room rn i Just figured out the intended solution rn yeah thats even cooler than i originally thought, thanks for the comment also !
Heya! Sick ass video! I’m glad puzzle maps are coming into vogue with this community. I’m glad to hear you like Perceptions, tho I agree cp3 was kinda rushed, unfortunately. Celeste needs more puzzle maps!
Great video! There's definitely a good bit of macropuzzle potential that could stem from rooms one can reenter and reset like a mario maker door. I believe there are some maps that do explore this a bit (A Blocked Off Path comes to mind) but I definitely highly look forward to what you're cooking. Also, considering the idea of mario having more "interactions" than celeste, Val once pointed out that mario (specifically SMW) is much more focused on (to use celeste's terminology) Actors like theo or puffers, while Celeste is more focused on blocks. There's still, I think, a lot you can do with blocks (Perceptions) but it's a wholly distinct flavor of puzzle having only a handful of Actors in celeste.
P.S. I'm sorry to toot my own horn but if you haven't seen it Misty Grotto, another map of mine, is quite similar to the note-taking puzzle of maze of glass (or at least closer than it is to most celeste gameplay)
Seconding a blocked off path, great map (I may or may not have made it)
As someone who usually prefer celeste puzzle free, i need to shout out Hexagon Force, which haves the player control both madeline and badeline at the same time, which leads to some unique puzzles that only works in celeste.
Appriciate the vid as always :)
My map isn't here 0/10
Jk, great video! Love Celeste vids like this
If it has pre-made subtitles, it’s great
For SJ, I definitely prefered a gift from the stars and pointless machines over dropzle. Idk they felt more involved and the ambience on dropzle was lackluster (which is also true for pointless machines but still)
im glad youre giving author credit but id really wish youd specify when a map is in a collab, and which. because its really hard to find a map from just a name and an author when its hidden away in a collab
(to be clear im also referring to maps that were just shown and not mentioned)
okay i added all in the description, hopefully didnt miss anything !
@@seazeiscool amazing, thank you
Wait can you not grab stuff if you don't have stamina?
yeah, you can't grab holdables. however you can still slide against certain entities and activate them despite not actually grabbing (for example, zip movers)
dropzle 5* frfr
I can’t even do dropzle what the hell was this video???
uh oh
i hate puzzle maps i cheesed all the pixel gaps in dropzle !!!!!!
Surprise! 🤔zzle
this is the one and only time i will ever consider a puzzle in a normal map to be good
Whoa this is super thorough & well-researched, awesome video that showcases a wide variety of bangers!!
Touhoe
@@seazeiscool oh... that's how you reply to my thoughtful & kind comment? welp, yet another racist in the Celeste community. unsubbed + blocked
TOE MAN
thank you for making this into a video instead of just posting the script (i am a celeste player so i cannot read)
extremely cool video! very very glad to see more people talking about puzzle maps. as a mapper i will now contribute to the number of puzzle maps by not playtesting my gameplay for readability and then claiming it's a routing puzzle map
(this is a joke i do want to \*try\* making a puzzle map at some point now actually)
Hi we should do that baba is you idea we had
@@bevweb i genuinely do not remember having that idea at all (i have memory issues also i think)
high quality celeste documentaries my beloved
I can't argue that celeste puzzle maps can and are very creative and good, but Celeste is a precision platformer game and the people who are gonna play these maps are people who have played celeste enough to want to try out custom maps and generally they are people who like precision platforming and not puzzles, in the same way that putting a platforming challenge in a puzzle game would alienate most of its players. The demographic of celeste players who also like puzzles is small. Not to discredit people who make puzzle maps of course, I'm sure they are really good. Reminds me of a negative celeste review I saw once: "Great game, just not for me."
this is really interesting to me because imo a lot of screens in celeste felt like puzzles to begin with, and I really enjoyed the experience of figuring out and pathing both as an intellectual and an execution challenge. Puzzle maps feel like a natural extension of that- like, i get that it's a different experience but im surprised the overlap is so small
@@tylerdarlington4269 imo thats the puzzle part of the game, there is 0 need to get rid of the other half of the game to just have levels
BABA IS YOU MENTION YOU ARE THE BEST FR. You just got yourself another sub for that.
23:17 wow what a cool route map for maze of glass i wonder who made that !? also awesome video - there are so many puzzle maps that I've never heard of that i really want to play now. For the maps that I have played, I thought you described their individual strengths (and weaknesses) so well!
how in the everliving hell did you notice i was using your map and were confident enough to say it in this comment LOL wtf, anyways thanks
i love puzzle maps! they're quite underappreciated and i wish there was more of them and people would enjoy them more instead of writing "i hate dropzle" in the dropzle clear video comment section. problem with making more puzzle maps is that they require such a different skill set to create then normal maps, because you have to make puzzles not extremely tedius but also not extremely boring
and i agree we need more eevee helper abuse!!!!!!!! there are soo many eevee helper mechanics that are like not used!!!!! they would even be intresting in non-puzzle maps
(core zones, room chests, making things fall like jellies)
Good video. I really like puzzle maps where they restrict your movement and it becomes way more about the puzzle than difficult movement, like Dropzle.
can't believe the celeste community hated puzzle maps so much they cheesed crystal garden instead of routing it and beating it intended smh
great video although unfortunately as a celeste player I couldn't solve it
Sailor's break from Catfish collab is a cool short puzzle map, if you haven't played it yet. (also lost woods from sj not even mentioned lmao)
banger video oomfie
i've dipped my toes into trying to add puzzle-elements-stuff into some maps. I definitely prefer designing routing puzzles and making stuff that's asking the player how they intend to get from points a to b. one of my wip maps has a few puzzles involving spinner deloads, deathwarping, and just, trying to get the player to feel like they're going out of bounds into somewhere they're really not supposed to be. meanwhile another wip is pretty open-ended with a lot of solutions & the idea is that the player has to figure out how they want to optimize their clear, due to the screens being long & littered with spike tech. but I also haven't really gone for making more puzzle puzzles, mostly because I'm really bad at solving puzzle puzzles and I don't really enjoy that gameplay 9 times out of 10, even when they're well made. tho more recently I've been experimenting with less structured gameplay, where you just throw systems at the player without any intended solutions in mind and trust them to be fun.
if you've played any of my maps, you know that I don't make elaborate puzzles. like, the most elaborate puzzles I've made were in the most recently released pack, and it was kinda just a few strawberries where you have to figure out what tech to apply where & some stuff working with spike jump mechanics & zip movers. the most complicated puzzle stuff i've made is definitely way simpler than any of the maps mentioned in the video.
puzzel maps are good just not fore celest players
HOW DID YOU FUCK UP YOUR SPELLING THIS BAD
Yahoo!
What about the sj map with the seasons that definitely counts as a puzzle map
lfg more cool celeste yt content
Love the video!
Puzzles are cool, but I dont play Celeste for it's puzzles. There's games more fundamentally aligned with that that are better.
28:12 *HONK*
i drew and redrew the map for maze of glass 5 times and i did not realize that THOSE ARE ARROWS. mean.
i hate puzzle maps i cheesed all the pixel gaps in dropzle !!!!!!
please do a full video on routing puzzle based maps sice theyre def one of the cooler mapping styles imo
no KoKoDoKo? mention 😔
great video! Puzzle maps are definitely underappreciated glad to see someone talk about them more!
Also im sure you know about it but Path of Most Resistance from Chinese New Year Collab 2023 is probably the most interesting mechanic for a puzzle map ive seen so far.
i have seen it it is very cool i just didnt feel like mentioning
Another b-b-b-b-bangerrrrrr 😁🤔🤔😍😁
just before i was going to bed well i guess i have to stay up an extra 30 min
thanks for the subtitles!!!!!! great video :D
Banger video! I've got a few maps I haven't heard of to try.
However I don't think you mentioned where all of these are from? The ones I know are largely in collabs and contests, maybe throw those in the description.
oh you are right im stupid, ill add them to description in a bit when i feel like it
okay i added them !
@@seazeiscool :happylandeline: thank you!
puzzles make muy brain hurt ☹
This has been confusing me for a while, I don't really understand the difference between a "routing puzzle" and a regular puzzle. Is it just that routing puzzles have more difficulty in the execution, or is the type of conceptual challenge different, closer to routing a typical platforming map in some way? maybe some combination of the two, or something else entirely?
id say a combination of those 2, theyre closer to typical celeste maps that still have real platforming challenge (for the most part) with 'normal' gameplay, while also having conceptual challenge from the routing and finding the correct way to beat a room. they def feel more like regular celeste maps compared to "true" puzzle maps that play very differently. tho again this entire concept of a routing map isnt well defined and is mostly just Vibes so i can see why this is confusing
yall i skipped every puzzle in dropzle with a fc silver be proud of me because my parents will never be
really well made video, i thoroughly enjoyed
idk if it was intentional or not but the timestamp you give for maze of glass leads to after the Puzzle Island trailer
oh accidental ig i ddint change it after reediting the video at some point, . ,.,.,.,,
wowow, thanks for covering my TAS map!! very happy to hear that it made you want to try TASing yourself (it's not nearly as intimidating as cr33pycat makes it look in that video i promise)
i just wish somebody would make a technical breakdown of this map, i am very interested in how it works :p
PUZZLE ISLAND MENTIONED LFG
i love seaze content i love seaze content
good stuff. subn
One puzzle map I like that combines some more difficult movement techs is Lost Woods in SJ advanced lobby, it’s very confusing and makes you think a lot while also testing your movement
I have a lot of appreciation for people who make puzzle maps and puzzle maps themselves but I don’t really love playing them. I like them, but I’d rather play a regular map.
clearly its time to invent a new type of puzzle map that invalidates this video by its exclusion 🤔
yooo mindash mentionned !!
Really cool video, I didn't except this to make me want to play all of the maps that were mentionned in this video
the puzzle island trailer reminds me a lot of games like noita & animal well!
small detail: the color spaces are in black and white mode which is a VivHelper setting, in Zipp's tower
interesting, is this like enabled by default or something? considering the original clear/silver video of the map by the creator has colors
@@seazeiscool the colors are disabled by default for that map specifically
I like puzzle maps :) free goldens :)))
baba is dream is so goddamn peak i love it
oomf broke my ivory tower😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
That was puzzling
heck yeah i guessed it!
Awsome man
As a hardcore puzzle game lover with a taste for extreme difficulty, I'm being honest when I'm saying I have literally never enjoyed a celeste puzzle map, and there are several reasons to dislike them outside of just a distaste for puzzles. A puzzle game lives and dies on its UX, and the celeste engine becomes a horrible mandatory membrane of awkwardness when it's used to express methodical puzzle design. Even if a puzzle is well designed, putting it in a celeste mod sacrifices it. Like I don't want to play a good puzzle if it has annoying separation and abstraction between inputs & gamestate, where there's no undo button and it's a given that there will be an extra few minutes of faff and error after you figure out the solution but haven't actually inputted it into the stodgy construction yet. Crystal Enigma and Dropzle are literally exactly the same to me.
I know celeste modders make celeste mods partly because designing levels for a game they already love is more fun for them than making a game from scratch, but look... man, puzzlescript is RIGHT there.
I don't know which puzzle games you played, but the ones I played there were many levels where the solution was so complex that, after figuring it out, it still takes a "few minutes of faff and error" to input the solution correctly by not doing any mistake. I haven't played many puzzle games with undo buttons.
I don't see how it's any different from a map like Dropzle, where you will not really die from the hazards after figuring out a solution.
I also have a hard time to understand how the celeste engine is, to you, horrible and awkward for making puzzles and that making a puzzle in celeste is "sacrificing" the idea in your opinion. Many maps have proven that you can make a crystal clear puzzle concept in Celeste.
From my point of view, it seems like this problem is more specific to (or at least more prevalent in) Dropzle and Crystal Enigma, which I can definitely get behind since both have a level of tedium that make them frustrating to me. Crystal Enigma has you wait for moving platforms to move while Dropzle has a reliance on dashless movement to get around if you don't want to immediately fail the puzzle as well as a very high potential for missed dash inputs in some rooms. This wouldn't matter to me so much if the puzzles were more simple, which they are in the start of both maps, but by the end they both have one puzzle that takes nearly an entire minute just to execute, not to mention the various ways both can be messed up. I do not think this clunkiness applies to all possible puzzle maps, but in my eyes it definitely applies to these two. Even though it has some of the same problems on a smaller scale, Gift from the Stars, the last of the 3 puzzle maps I've ever played, was a lot more palatable and I actually enjoyed it simply because it felt like there was more of a reason for it to be in Celeste - it played like an actual Celeste level instead of a puzzle test chamber.
But honestly, I wouldn't dislike those two maps if they were just placed in a context that made sense instead of being part of a (relatively) casual platforming experience, ruining the quick pace of most people's beginner lobby playthroughs. I don't like the implication that these maps will take about the same amount of effort as their neighbors when they require a higher caliber of skill in a completely different skillset. Even as someone who plays puzzle games, though I can acknowledge the puzzle design of Dropzle is very clever, its complexity just gets lost on me when I'm tired and in the mood for platforming. I would like to see some sort of puzzle collab in the future, I think it could encourage mappers to explore new ideas and maybe even new styles of puzzle mapping while also providing a good space for those maps.
What are your opinions on maps where Celeste movement and mechanics are integrated into the solving of the map, like Kokodoko (or however it's spelled) and Labyrinth Mu? As has been stated already, these maps can't exist with their design outside of Celeste. Like, I get that Labyrinth Mu is more of a routing challenge than a real puzzle but Kokodoko (sp) from what I've seen is equal parts Celeste movement and routing.
I dunno. Maybe the marriage of movement and thinking is a pretty specific flavor with a very small audience. But I think there's a lot of potential for design there that can only happen in this game.
correct me if im wrong, but does “annoyinng seperation and abstraction between inputs & gamestate, where theres no undo button, and extra minutes of faff and error” still apply to lots of notable puzzle games in the genre? the portal series comes to mind immediately - its made in valves’ engines, those which up until that point had supported solely shooter games, and you can tell! theres no undo button, and the main mechanic is still a gun, yet portal 1 and 2 have still cemented themselves as iconic games in the puzzle genre! good puzzles can still come out of mediums which arent built around them inherently, i love this game to bits and i wouldnt choose making puzzles in its engine any other way
@@SRN_RL No opinion on labyrinth mu, but I deeply deeply hated KoKoDoKo. the modestly challenging platforming made everything I outlined so much worse. Unless you're dealing with super complex systems and solutions like in bean & nothingness or a zachtronics game, you shouldn't have to spend an extra half hour on a puzzle after you know the solution. I also disagree that its puzzles are based on celeste movement, it's mostly concurrency shenanigans and binary on-off switches with the zip movers.
And to @goose.exclamationpoint regarding Portal, yes, its a counterexample, but it's also so so far from the best that the puzzle genre has to offer, partly because of those limitations. Also, Portal never became challenging enough to be nearly as aggravating as most celeste puzzle maps.
I think I am being taken too literally regarding the "the puzzle is sacrificed for being in celeste" point. I don't mean that the puzzle should have been copypasted into unity, obviously the puzzles need celeste in order to exist, but that doesn't change the fact that they're invariably worse for being in celeste, that their existence in celeste represents several negative points for which a map could only ever succeed in spite. I also wanted to offer a counterpoint to the horrible "celeste players don't like thinking" point in the video, because that's obviously not the reason for me.