When Should You Research Mining Techs?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Ensure you watch the first video first: • When are extra Mining ...
Mining technologies in the Age of Empires franchise don't get much love, and for good reason. Are Specialized Pick, Acid Distillation, and Cupellation in Age of Empires 4 any different though? Let's find out!
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#AgeofEmpires4 #MiningCamp #Mining
0:00 - Intro
0:20 - Disclaimers
1:13 - Section I: Effects on Gather Rates
3:13 - Section II: Payback Times
6:43 - Section III: Rules of Thumb
8:09 - Conclusion - เกม
![[UNCUT] ที่นี่ที่แรก ปู - หาญส์ พูดถึงมหากาพย์หนี้สิ้น I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 10 ก.ค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KDNA9DZ0p4U/mqdefault.jpg)
Mining upgrades would be far more useful and interesting if they also changed your access to gold. Like you can mine more gold from veins as you get better at extracting it. You could have the ability to go back to old veins to collect that gold or it could be gone forever (or some mix) making it a more strategic decision. As is, trade is a far better alternative to the latter mining upgrades.
This used to be a feature - you could previously upgrade gold mines, but they removed that from the game. Perhaps they might reintroduce it, who knows? :)
This is exactly what I thought. The current design in my opinion is outdated and uninteresting.
It could be way simpler. It could just be "Increase villagers gathering rate by 20% and mine last 20% more".
In Age II Mayans have the ability that their resources last 20% longer. This means that for every 10 gold they take out of the mine, the mine current amount goes down 8 gold only.
It's not a difficult bonus to implement in the game at all and would give you something that you actually care about in imperial age: Your mines will run out later so you can mine longer.
A few AoE3 shipment cards did the same thing, they increased your gather rate for a specific resource while making it last longer.
Delhi and Abbasid get more berries from bushes by putting a mill next to them, should be able to do the same for gold and stone.
Hello everyone! With Wood, Gold, and Stone fully covered from an Eco perspective, the only resource left to explore is the beastly Food. It will be more thorough than any of the aforementioned resources as there are many more moving parts, so it will likely take me longer to make that one. As always, thanks for watching and stay tuned! :)
Be sure to watch the first video before this: th-cam.com/video/OIxsepoLbss/w-d-xo.html
i have a question , in case of abasid/french civ they have upgrade cost disconts (imperial updates cost less 210/200g) is it still worth it?
@@mircearadio5474 They hurt less but still suck.. Maybe Acid Distillation could be picked up in a few more long games, but Cupellation is awful even with the discount.
Thanks for all the hard work you put into these videos. We appreciate them a lot
No problem - thanks for stopping by! :)
This is just lol. Thanks for the upload. After your crosscut saw video I had already stopped picking up almost all T3 upgrades.
There’s another stupid thing with the mining upgrades: it costs gold. At least crosscut saw was trading FOOD and GOLD for a better WOOD output, which was at least some kind of trade off. The 700 gold you spend to get more gold in the future is just so painful. They should make all upgrades cost a better mix of the other two resources that it doesn’t help with. I think that would be a good start.
Yeah there are many ways the devs can address this - but one thing's for sure is that they need to tweak Castle and especially Imperials techs' numbers to make them viable in most games..
As Delhi player
After any age press f1 and do all researches
Thank you for making these videos, I really like the analytical way you do your videos, good job!
Still waiting for that Food tech video!
Food video hopefully coming next :)
great video! I love these deep dives into the resource gathering, I'll definitely be taking this into account
What about the second and specifically the last upgrade where not to increase gather speed, but gather rate. So with Cuppelation your miners gain 1.2 Gold in INventory for every 1.0 Gold they harvest from the mine, effectively increasing a mines capacity by 20%. This I think could make things more interesting :D but just tossing around ideas :D
Something similar-ish was already in the game, but they removed it for the final release. You used to be able to "improve" these veins once they ran out to extract more gold out of them. :)
Resources lasting longer is a bit different than that though, as there’s a good cost/benefit decision to be made about when to get it - the earlier you get it, the more gold you will get back in total, but you might commit resources you really need for earlier fights.
@@rainbowevil It's a subtile difference, yes.
Increasing the ammount of Resources a gatheringpoint has by a flat ammount is one option; thought would this work in a way that mines run dry, but with the tech there is then more to be mined? (this would mean the spot is blocked for building after running dry initially).
By contrast (as you pointed out) my proposal was to increase the efficiency that miners gather resources from mines: they still take the normal (+techs) ammount of time to harvest 10 Gold to inventory, but they only deplete 9 (7, with respective techs) from the deposite.
This way, as you mentioned, the player has an interesting decision to make as he is litteraly wasting up to 30% of the standing gold on his side of the map by delaying the appropriate techs... I belive this could work... but I'm not a dev ;)
@@AkantorJojo yep, I prefer your method. They also have this for one of the civs in AoE2, so it’s definitely possible!
The cost of techs was the laziest thing devs did.
Everything costs the same.
Ultra cav? 300/700.
Ultra mining? 300/700.
Its like a final atribute based on age youre in. I doubt they separated the classes and everything was heritaged from master class with the same costs
I also think the problem is everything costs way too much gold. For some techs I'm sure it could be justified, but when you reach imp and everything is this expensive you really can't pick that many to play with for the rest of the game. It's like they just slapped on the upgrade costs without stopping to think how they already designed the maps.
The same applies with Blacksmith upgrades and a few other things. They've peculiarly gone for a very symmetric approach for techs
I think it was a decent starting point, but they definately need to tune numbers now while seeing how it all pans out. "Dead" upgrades should never exist in any game.
MINING
TECHNOLOGIES
ARE
OVERPRICED
loving these videos, they are so usefull!!! Thank you man :)
Glad you like them!
Thanks for these videos, they are a huge help. Love your content
Thank you - glad you like it!
I love your videos. Thank you.
Please, consider making this same type of analyzes [using math] for build orders, eco, military units. For AOE IV.
Have a great day!
Hey, long time listener, first time caller here. Thank you for all these great vids that help illuminate the details of this game's mechanics. It's awesome to see the collaboration between the scientists and the top players in hammering out optimal/meta play patterns for this (still relatively new) game.
If I can add my two cents: I think there is a general misconception about villager build efficiency, namely that the Nth vill is less efficient than the N-1th. If you run the numbers, it turns out that the "build power" (HP/sec) of the first vill is 3x that of the 2nd, but the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. are exactly the same. This also means that the resource collection opportunity cost is constant after the 2nd vill, so when considering how many vills (beyond 1) to add to a landmark building task, the only villager efficiency cost you need to consider is walking times to/from the site.
Admittedly this is kind of minor, and perhaps not worth a vid in itself, but I found it an interesting correction to my mental model of the building mechanic.
The evidence: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IGCv9Y8aYAmopNGXC44ND5Wdixd8DuIMTJWU86hgCo4/edit?usp=sharing
Age of noob: releases deep analysis as to why eco upgrades aren't worth it
Everyone: buys eco upgrades anyway
thank you for going in dpeth on all this stuff, it really helps to theory craft for a lot of people!
Np - thanks for stopping by!
Nice video,as always.
What about when you play as HRE and have the extra carry amount? Does that make the upgrade better, or worse. As there is less walking.
The one exception is Delhi -- you might as well fire up the research since it doesn't cost anything other than time for them, and you'll probably have Mining Camps that aren't preoccupied with anything. (Also works for the Forestry upgrades.)
But then again you barely mine gold with Delhi anyway if on 3 or more sacred sites.
@@louisdrouard9211 aaah true. I forgot.
I usually just switch to melee elephant- cross bow- anti siege siege spam.
Well yeah, 99% of the info in my "When Should You Research" videos don't apply to the Delhi - as all you care about is the order of the research (in a University or something like that). For mining, it's a no-brainer to click the tech as soon as you age up each time. :)
Love these!
Thanks!
Amazing video.
Hello! Thank for the video! I was researching the 3 techs without knowing that. I ll avoid the third one and pick less the second one from now on.
Glad I could help!
Well, the math speaks volumes. Eco-upgrades should and could be more interesting. Simple "number go big" is a bit boring to be true.
Gold III: Gain % of gold mined as bonus stone and vice versa.
Wood III: Lost units and buildings refund a bit of lumber.
Food III: Houses next to farms grant passive food income. For mongols big sheep herds grant passive food.
Just an idea from the top of my head.
Please do vid on blacksmith upgrades and if they're worth getting before the unit upgrades.
If we consider spearmen (because the results are most applicable to all civs):
Dark age spears cost 60F and 20W. They have 6ATK and 0 melee defence and 70HP.
The upgrade to hardened spears costs 25F and 75G, roughly the cost of a single spearman.
This upgrade gives them 8 ATK and 90HP. The research time is 30s.
So, for 100 resources and 30 seconds you are getting a 33% increased ATK and 28% increased HP. Therefore you could say that you need roughly 3 spearmen before upgrading makes sense (this is the equivalence point- the cost is the same for upgrading which increases your strength by roughly 30%, and training another spearman).( This is not taking into account the huge gains from marginal increases in army size: 5 spears can probably beat 3 spears with no losses.)
Compare this to the blacksmith upgrades: You need to build it first (150W).
Bloomery gives +1 ATK and costs 50F and 125G.
Then, leatherwork gives +1 melee defence and again costs 50F and 125G.
Also, they each have a research time of 60s.
So, you are paying 150W + 100F + 250G (500 res) and 120 s for a marginal 12.5% increased ATK, and the melee defence probably amounts to a similar 10 - 15% gain in "effective health". For that 500 res you could have made 5 or 6 extra units and seriously compounded your strength in the early game. My ballpark guess is a blacksmith is worth it when 500 resources cannot increase your effective strength by about 20% solely through unit production- so maybe if you have 20 spears, an extra 5 spears increases your strength by 25% and so does blacksmith. But this is all very back of the envelope - it will be interesting to see actual in game results.
Also, one more thing i forgot to mention is that archers in particular benefit from ranged attack a lot because +1 on a low base damage of 5 is an instant 20% improvement, almost double of the attack upgrade on the spearman. Conversely, these upgrades mean very little when you are using counter units effectively, as they already get massive buffs, and also when used on already very high stat units like knights.
I will circle back on Blacksmith upgrades at some point for sure :)
@@MrSeropamine "Conversely, these upgrades mean very little when you are using counter units effectively,"
So in short, they matter more when one player isn't able to use counter units effectively. Such as when someone has to throw trash units against MAA because they are low on gold.
So an Abbasid player throwing phalanx spearmen against MAA, is going to want to increase their attack. And conversely the MAA player is going to want their melee armor increased.
@@MrSeropamine Pretty good framework you got there and close estimates too. The only thing is that attack/armor often gets way more than 10-15% value. If you have Royal Knight for example, it takes 38 shots from TC to kill 1 RK in Feudal without armor upgrade but 48 shots with 1 range armor. That's >26% difference. Yet that alone still doesnt mean you should get 4 knights before blacksmith (although you should due to other reasons). Cuz that 26% difference frequently makes the difference between a raiding knight surviving vs not. And Royal Knight is not the only example. Armor benefit in general skews above 15% frequently. And ATK is frequently needed in response to enemy armor (aside from Zhu-Ge Nu and such).
As for OP's question, ofc it's only a question between imperial upgrades. Often, biology/tactic is better than elite for example. In feudal, there is no comparison. In castle, you jump to units that dont require upgrades. etc.
The real balance lies in unit production vs upgrade -- like in your framework. Indeed, when I first started playing AOE4, I lost or almost lost so many games due to upgrading first on siege before having siege mass.
@@AgeofNoob Awesome, thanks.
I play in the top 100 for team games and only get wheelbarrow + the cheap tree felling upgrade before castle. It’s not worth delaying castle age by getting other things IMO. Once my economy is rolling 15 mins into the game I’ll start getting other stuff.
Legend has it those 5 miners are still waiting for Cupellation to pay off today....
Can you make an in depth video about the ribauldequin?? Feel like there's no videos about the actual potential of it and never see it used in game. Love your vids!!
I will be circling back on Siege units soon - thanks! :)
Devs after watching this video:
"Great news! We're replacing the obscene gold costs of all eco techs with wood!"
I think even with wood it would still be expensive tbh, but it would be a step in the right direction. :D
@@AgeofNoob I was joking since it would just turn the tier 3 wood upgrade into the useless meme tech.
@@perrytran9504 Yeah I know you were joking, but I mean I'd still rather pay wood than gold for techs in the late game :D But yes, we need them to rethink the cost properly for sure
Thanks!!!
No problem!
Yeah they definitely need to buff the wood and mining upgrades
Can you re-crunch the numbers with Abbassid House of Wisdom's research discount and +8% resource drop off techs?
Hi can you make a Combat video like how to keep my troops alive more then 30 seconds and tips
Does anyone know if the mining upgrades affect the Malians' pit mines? Or just villager gather rates?
Trebuchet / english trebuchet analysis please
with the french 25% cheaper eco-upgrades, is it a lot more fesible to go for acid destilation or is it still mostly a scam? (750 for cupilation still sounds like a rip off lol)
Acid Distillation is okay for the French - you should payback in roughly 5-ish minutes. Not horrible, but definitely still not a tech to prioritize over others. :)
What is a Big Button tech?
Damn homie
How about the Mongols with steppes redoubt with those upgrades?
Would it be a difference?
I'd have to test it tbh, but my intuition says no. I think if you get Wheelbarrow + Specialized Pick, you'll already get the bulk of the speed you need to improve your efficiency and enjoy the bonus. Getting anything else means you'll still have to wait a long time for them to payback, even if you keep moving the Rebout.
Does mining upgrades affects mongols Ovoo ?
what about french or delhi tho? its free to delhi and french get it cheaper
*Dehli noises of extreme supremacy*
Man even if I'm Delhi, I will not research Cupellation out of spite. :D
Would agree on most of it but if you have maybe 10 villagers on Stone in Addition to 20 on Gold the castle age tech for mining maybe is more viable than you Described
The payback time even with that setup is still too long for most games.
I personally research this tech, not for the purpose of earning more gold from it. But for the purpose of denying the enemies gold in the frontlines. (faster I can mine that gold, less gold for the enemies to exploit). Usually only in team games though. 1v1 and 2v2 games are to small and action-intense that nobody has time to macro that. 3v3 and 4v4 games the maps are much larger and the games usually end up as a no-rush game.
love rules of thumb
Glad you like them! :)
Hey, I'm new to the game and I was wondering if all these numbers from your videos are still accurate in the current game patch? Thanks!
Check out my latest video. :)
@@AgeofNoob I just did! Thanks :)
Point to consider, mining tech research would not just affect gold but stone mining as well. Would that add up to the math?
Are you sure the payback times are correct? me and my buddy seem to be getting only basically half of the payback times as we tested with WB, Deltas are pretty much the same tho with justt few units of resources here or there, give or take, what is contradicting here? It would be good to know what kind of calculation you are doing to verify this for ourselves
I didn't calculate the payback time for WB, as I'll make a standalone video for it. Which payback time was lower/higher for you?
@Age of Noob What i meant was that, like you, we included WB in our results so it would match yours and to simply point out that we did not overlook it, we also used a small vein, we only calculated the three mining upgrades and our results were as follows:
Gold/min
SP
5miners: : 218
10miners: 437
15miners:655
20miners: 874
AD
5miners: : 251
10miners: 502
15miners:753
20miners: 1005
C
5miners: 289
10miners: 578
15miners:867
20miners:1156
Payback
SP
5miners: 6min 8sec
10miners: 3min 4sec
15miners: 2min 3sec
20miners:1min 32 sec
AD
5miners: 10min 40sec
10miners: 5min 20sec
15miners:3min 33sec
20miners: 2min 40sec
C
5miners: 18min 34sec
10miners: 9min 17sec
15 miners:6min 11sec
20miners: 2min 38sec
As a HRE player i just buy everything with the power of relics XD.
what I get away with is that what was true for the wood imperial tech is pretty much true for the mining castle tech! AOE2 (yes, we always come back to it for comparisons) doesn't have imp techs for mining... it kinda sounds obvious it should be the same for AOE4!
Great vids btw!
Yeah AoE2 mining techs overall are rarely picked up, especially the Shaft ones as you said :)
blacksmith upgrades plx
Will circle back on them for sure :)
I use Cupellation for the sole reason to steal resources in enemies territory with 25-35 villagers. Step 1. Keep. Step 2. Mine gold as fast as possible. The goal is not to make a profit from mining gold, but to make sure the enemy can't get 8,000 gold.
ELO: 1350+
Leader: SanadheL
So you invest a whole keep, idling a third of your eco due to walk time, and 1000 resources you won't get back for over 10 mins to deny a Large Gold Vein.. You're much better off investing to gain map control via military or forward aggression, unless the game is somehow over the 1 hour mark and is in a stalemate or something. This scenario doesn't show up 99% of the time. :)
@@AgeofNoob Yeah, as you say, I've only done it like 3-4 times in almost 300 games. But it is an interesting consideration. Maybe it was made for that, it's not about improving the economy. Every attack costs.
@@AgeofNoob And the Keep is multipurpose. You don't want your reinforcements walk one hour from your base. Behind the keep inside enemy territory you could build siege or barracks. It's not only for the mining.
And this is why dehli are so strong
is this still applicable?
Check out my latest Economy Update video, I cover those there as well.
It should be as in aoe3 where techs gives +20%, +30%, +50%....not +15% for beverly tech up......i don't know why they did that.....
I think the cost of those specific technologies needs to be reduced.
i feel so big brain now for unknowingly never research mining techs
:D
WHY DO GOLD MINING UPGRADES COST GOLD!!!
TO MINE MORE GOLD LETS GOOOO
6:30 Thats not cool at all. We need a crunch the numbers! :/
Its like slap in the face...
You ignored stone?
you didn't watch the video?
I mentioned that they're the same a few times lol - the only difference is that the Stone Outcroppings will run out sooner because they have less resources, but that doesn't affect gather rates.
@@AgeofNoob Sorry I missed that. Thanks for clearification! :)
@@MarvinBlum Np!
This game is a mistake... Videos like this really just further point out how little effort and thought went into this game...