very good, something i had a lot of trouble in the beginning, was engine reliability, now i pride myself in keeping it high, but i can see how many people would have problems with it too
This format is great! There are a lot of things I've picked up from your videos, but it's very useful to be told exactly why things should be how they are. It helps to understand things on a more fundamental level. Plus it's just fun!
Well explained! I'll add my two cents as an automotive engineer, if I may; the engine power curve that will produce the best performance in your vehicle is the one that has the most average power over the engine speed range that will be used, and that speed range is a function of the gear ratios in the transmission. To utilize a 'dyno queen' engine you need close ratio gearbox with very many gears. But a reasonable road car with 4-5-6 gears in the transmission will probably have a 20 to 30% step between gears, meaning that if you upshift at redline the engine speed will be 20 to 30% lower than redline RPM after the shift. For a 5000 RPM redline, for example, the engine will be turning 3500-4000 RPM after the shift. So the best performing engine will be the one with the most average power between 3500 and 5000 RPM, in that case. And that's only for full throttle acceleration - for good driving manners and fuel economy, having good torque down at the engine speed where the car cruises is important too, as Der Bayer mentions in the video.
This is the secret strength of the CVT, and why it was banned in F1 before it ever hit the track - engineers could design an engine with the most absurd tiny power peak, but the transmission could keep the engine snugly at that peak at all times. I wish Automation allowed us to make racing-quality CVTs.
Very nice explanation! I tried to keep things a bit more basic and and short in the video and already feared it would not be in-depth enough for some of the audience :)
That's a great explanation. I tend to avoid explaining it to people cause it gets too in depth when I try, but yours might be short and easy enough. I'll probably pin this in a modding channel if that's okay!
There is a built-in stat in Automation that helps you better see the realistic performance of the engine: the "Performance Index" which is the average engine power in kW in the top 30% (or something similar) of the rev range. Maximizing that value will be a better indication for racing performance than peak power. Cheers!
What I would love to see is a vertical line on the powerband to tell where shifts put the revs, since we already have engine graphs based on the car it's in. Would make it easier to understand visually.
@@06dpa That would be possible, but you'd probably want to see that as a graph variant in the gearing graph so that you can tune the gears right away. The "don't cut the power curve" is something you learn once and then do for all engines, proper gear tuning is something you do for every car/engine combo.
THIS! So many people tend to get hogged up on the "peak" stats of an engine. I personally try to go for x amount of torque between a specific rpm range (generally lower), which helps massively when building the engine. Also, gearbox and tyres matter a lot for acceleration (especially in the later stage of campaigns, 80's-00's cars). I wish we'd had diesel engines for this game, however they can be simulated relatively easily since the turbo revamp as well as all new types of fuel(s). As for this type of content - I'm all for it. I personally might do Automation guides, tips and tricks on my own (other) channel, to help newer and less understanding players with engineering. Do continue if you want to make this a series! Love your content man.
wanted to touch a little bit more on why you don't want your peak power at redline; first of all, you might actually be losing potential power if your redline is too low, but even if your redline is right at the actual power peak, you're still losing a significant range above the peak where the engine is still making close to peak power. That range keeps the engine in its powerband for longer and also can potentially mean the car is closer to its peak power once you upshift (i.e. it doesn't "bog down" as much)
I love the idea of explaining the rhetoric and thinking process around the elements of designing vehicles in automation. It's challenging in the game as it stands to understand if what you are building makes a 'good' vehicle or just makes good numbers on screen.
Ah, I see you're making great progress checking the Mille Monti cars and you needed to make this video to vent your frustration over our awful design choices lol
Great format idea, I'd love more of this! :) As for a suggestion topic: General tips to make the car more driveable in beam, more balanced in the corners, more predictable ... Or, because I really don't understand it (yet); HOW, IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY, DO YOU TUNE A TURBO?!
I had finally figured out turbo tuning pretty well and then they changed everything. Turbo tuning is tough lol. I don't play a lot of Automation either, so it takes time to learn new things for me. Watching Killrob has always been my biggest aid though, he explains both new game features and his thought process in let's plays so well.
@@HazewinDog I am also still struggling a bit since the turbo overhaul. But in 1-2 episodes we will get turbos for Cisalpina, so maybe I can hide a quick tutorial in there :)
@@the.bavarianwhat are your thoughts on adding standalone gearboxes like in real life where it can either be like the engine page where the initial cost is a bit higher but prolonged cost will be lower if you use the same one, and say if you made a transverse front engine you could take the same assembly (with some fitting time/engineering obviously)
I think it is too much micromanagement. The campaign already is overwhelming enough when running an average company (my companies are usually quite lean on purpose to keep things manageable).
Short, informative, on point. I think videos like this could make a fun and helpful tutorial for many. I also wouldn't mind deep dives on some topics like this. Maybe another topic could be (turbo) charged vs. naturally aspirated engines?
The short format helps to keep editing and preparation times down - I already spend way too much time on the big campaign playthrough. So more in-depth tutorials probably need to wait a bit :)
The thing is in this case, you'd want to raise the rev limit on the gold engine so that you'd get back into the high power zone after shifting. Now of course, that's assuming you can do this wihout blowing valves or something else through the bonnet. Then, you'd also want to modify gear ratios to be closer and final to be shorter if you're not shooting for higher top speed, increasing acceleration further. Sure, in general, you want to maximize the area under the power curve through the range of RPMs you're gonna be using the most, and having a linear power curve that peaks right at rev limit is very stupid, but there is also a world where you flatten the curve too much for a racing application and just lose potential. In the end, the whole powertrain is a system, and considering the engine alone is not a good approach. A close ratio gearbox won't be great with a wide powerband at low - mid RPMs, while more spread out gear ratios will not allow you to get the best out of a peaky race engine.
I probably should have said that this applies when the engine internals are already at their limit and don't want to rev any higher. Of course for any motorsport application you normally go for the maximum rpm limit possible. So the video applies to the case when you already have set your rpm limit. You're also right about it's not only about the power/torque curve, but about the overall car and especially gearing. The whole thing is less of a problem the more gears you have available.
I'd love a tutorial on the ins and outs of exhaust/intake tuning Right now I just kind of match the flow graphs but I'm not entirely sure if that's correct
If you're matching the flow graphs you are already doing half of the job right! The other half is about different resonances for the different header types, basically giving you a torque/power boost at specific rpm ranges (higher ranges for more sporty/racey header types). That's the short tutorial, I'll note the idea down :)
Great content, Bayer. I would love to hear more general tips and tricks about Automation from you. I generally love that you focus more on more natural builds, rather than just trying to make the most insane 500KPH automobile that the game mechanics allow, which would never exist in real life.
I like Automation but I very much do not understand it, so videos on the topic of how to build for a given purpose - economy, utility, prestige, sport, racing - would be much appreciated!
Most people don't really understand the relationship between torque and power, even though they'll tell you that they do. People also underestimate gear ratios and their effect on wheel torque. Having an engine with max RPM 500RPM higher than peak power also has the potential to allow you to use a higher average peak torque/power, and gives greater flexibility with gear ratios
Hello first comment from Indonesia here. I'd like to learn more about suspension in automation and in beamng. Maybe a comparison between everyday use and track use would be great. Or if that's too much a different to compare, it might be better to compare suspension for light sports car and track car. Btw, I really am enjoying your campaign series. Thanks
What I try to do, after variable valve lift is available, if I am building a sporty engine, is to place the main cam profile fairly low (around 30), the second cam profile fairly high, and turn the turbo so that it kicks in about 1500 RPM before the second cam, to minimize power delivery valleys. Before that, I go to DOHC valvetrain but keep cam and ignition timing fairly mild if have no means to tune the engine to keep linear gear shifts strictly within the power band.
Great video! The only thing I'm missing is a reference to the Performance stat. This is often highest when you have about 500rpm to spare, depending on the power band of course. So if you're not sure you're what's better, that should be a good indicator. I don't know how accurate it is, though.
You're absolutely right! It's a generic stat guiding you into the right direction, but in the end it all depends not only on the torque curve, but also on gearing. The stat definitely points you towards building less peaky engines, so it is a good guidance and I should have mentioned it.
Ferrari 360 has peak power at max rpm (~395hp @ 8500rpm). But up until that point for about 1000rpm the curve stays relatively flat. So not cutting off power is good, but what people should really be aiming for is a usable relatively flat curve before max rpm (at least with sporty engines), even if peak power is at max rpm
Real car companies (and their managers and their customers) also fall for the numbers game :) You need to have a higher power number than your competitor, as this adds additional prestige in the real world. Automation does not simulate this in the campaign though!
It always irritated me when people on youtube made these kind of engines with a powercurve and rpm limit combination that makes no sense. This video cures that irritation :D
Der Bayer with a Der Banger as per usual. also if you didnt know, those fixtures exporting as white can be fixed by selecting them in automation and changing the material. The chrome it defaults as is broken.
Very informative video thanks! Like many people im always struggling with suspension and handling setups. My cars can't take corners very well. Can you make a short and informative video like this?
Can you pleas make a tutorial how you make interiors? What mods you use stuff like that. your interiors look great even though you say you don't spend much time on it. Also how about some tips and tricks in designs? I saw you using vents of all things for lights and even wings for details and taillights
This reminds me of RCR talking about the differences between the Viper and late generation Corvettes. The Viper he noted has poor low-end torque, and with the car's long gearing it doesn't easily jump off the line like the Corvette does, but makes much more power later on in the curve.
Thank you so much for the very good tutorial can you post tutorials on how to play a campaign in different styles like luxury or sport ? That would really help me because every company I build always goes bankrupt after about 3 years
Yeah I want to do a "campaign basics" tutorial a lot, although it needs a bit of planning. Your issue sounds like one of these issues (or a combination): Not good enough cars, overproduction, not enough profit margin.
I know nothing about the engineering side of this stuff nor can i read the graphs that well because im stupid lil country boy but even i get this right (also i usually feel it out through testing if im messing some thing up on a engine and generally try and keep the engine as smooth as possible and not peeky)
You're probably right, the "good" example as a large torque bump in the mid range, so it does not look as "flat". What I meant was that mid-range torque should get a lot more attention and you should not only focus on top-end torque/power.
As someone that daily drives a car with juicy midrange and peak power nearly 700rpm before redline with torque for days, I know not to make this mistake.
In this case I used a cheap Samseon Meteor USB Mic (without pop filter as you might be able to hear in some spots). Sometimes I use my Beyerdynamics MMX 300 headset.
Please let me know if you like this format and which other topics you would like me to cover. Thanks!
Really quick and good lesson, suspension tunning is problably one that need this kind of info!
very good, something i had a lot of trouble in the beginning, was engine reliability, now i pride myself in keeping it high, but i can see how many people would have problems with it too
I dont know how many times it took you to make this video but i appreciate it :)
This format is great! There are a lot of things I've picked up from your videos, but it's very useful to be told exactly why things should be how they are. It helps to understand things on a more fundamental level. Plus it's just fun!
@@alohai3537 Almost 400 hours in, I still don't know what is a "good" reliability score lol
Well explained! I'll add my two cents as an automotive engineer, if I may; the engine power curve that will produce the best performance in your vehicle is the one that has the most average power over the engine speed range that will be used, and that speed range is a function of the gear ratios in the transmission. To utilize a 'dyno queen' engine you need close ratio gearbox with very many gears. But a reasonable road car with 4-5-6 gears in the transmission will probably have a 20 to 30% step between gears, meaning that if you upshift at redline the engine speed will be 20 to 30% lower than redline RPM after the shift. For a 5000 RPM redline, for example, the engine will be turning 3500-4000 RPM after the shift. So the best performing engine will be the one with the most average power between 3500 and 5000 RPM, in that case.
And that's only for full throttle acceleration - for good driving manners and fuel economy, having good torque down at the engine speed where the car cruises is important too, as Der Bayer mentions in the video.
This is the secret strength of the CVT, and why it was banned in F1 before it ever hit the track - engineers could design an engine with the most absurd tiny power peak, but the transmission could keep the engine snugly at that peak at all times.
I wish Automation allowed us to make racing-quality CVTs.
Very nice explanation! I tried to keep things a bit more basic and and short in the video and already feared it would not be in-depth enough for some of the audience :)
That's a great explanation. I tend to avoid explaining it to people cause it gets too in depth when I try, but yours might be short and easy enough. I'll probably pin this in a modding channel if that's okay!
@@doylerudolph7965Yeah that sounds like it'd be the obvious choice for a top speed oriented car
There is a built-in stat in Automation that helps you better see the realistic performance of the engine: the "Performance Index" which is the average engine power in kW in the top 30% (or something similar) of the rev range. Maximizing that value will be a better indication for racing performance than peak power. Cheers!
Do you even remember when you made your own version of this video? It was way back when Automation was just an engine designer.
What I would love to see is a vertical line on the powerband to tell where shifts put the revs, since we already have engine graphs based on the car it's in. Would make it easier to understand visually.
You're right, I probably should have pointed at the Performance Index for quick tuning guidance!
@@MrHamof I do not remember that, no :D but it certainly is a topic that has lived in my head and says hello whenever I see dyno queens haha
@@06dpa That would be possible, but you'd probably want to see that as a graph variant in the gearing graph so that you can tune the gears right away. The "don't cut the power curve" is something you learn once and then do for all engines, proper gear tuning is something you do for every car/engine combo.
THIS! So many people tend to get hogged up on the "peak" stats of an engine. I personally try to go for x amount of torque between a specific rpm range (generally lower), which helps massively when building the engine. Also, gearbox and tyres matter a lot for acceleration (especially in the later stage of campaigns, 80's-00's cars). I wish we'd had diesel engines for this game, however they can be simulated relatively easily since the turbo revamp as well as all new types of fuel(s). As for this type of content - I'm all for it. I personally might do Automation guides, tips and tricks on my own (other) channel, to help newer and less understanding players with engineering. Do continue if you want to make this a series! Love your content man.
wanted to touch a little bit more on why you don't want your peak power at redline; first of all, you might actually be losing potential power if your redline is too low, but even if your redline is right at the actual power peak, you're still losing a significant range above the peak where the engine is still making close to peak power. That range keeps the engine in its powerband for longer and also can potentially mean the car is closer to its peak power once you upshift (i.e. it doesn't "bog down" as much)
I love the idea of explaining the rhetoric and thinking process around the elements of designing vehicles in automation. It's challenging in the game as it stands to understand if what you are building makes a 'good' vehicle or just makes good numbers on screen.
Ah, I see you're making great progress checking the Mille Monti cars and you needed to make this video to vent your frustration over our awful design choices lol
You're exactly right :D
Man, you need to do video like that on so much subjects. Short, precise and straight on point = really helpful
Great format idea, I'd love more of this! :)
As for a suggestion topic: General tips to make the car more driveable in beam, more balanced in the corners, more predictable ...
Or, because I really don't understand it (yet); HOW, IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY, DO YOU TUNE A TURBO?!
The video about turbo tuning will need to be longer than 3 minutes :D
I had finally figured out turbo tuning pretty well and then they changed everything. Turbo tuning is tough lol. I don't play a lot of Automation either, so it takes time to learn new things for me. Watching Killrob has always been my biggest aid though, he explains both new game features and his thought process in let's plays so well.
@@HazewinDog I am also still struggling a bit since the turbo overhaul. But in 1-2 episodes we will get turbos for Cisalpina, so maybe I can hide a quick tutorial in there :)
@@the.bavarianwhat are your thoughts on adding standalone gearboxes like in real life where it can either be like the engine page where the initial cost is a bit higher but prolonged cost will be lower if you use the same one, and say if you made a transverse front engine you could take the same assembly (with some fitting time/engineering obviously)
I think it is too much micromanagement. The campaign already is overwhelming enough when running an average company (my companies are usually quite lean on purpose to keep things manageable).
Short, informative, on point. I think videos like this could make a fun and helpful tutorial for many. I also wouldn't mind deep dives on some topics like this.
Maybe another topic could be (turbo) charged vs. naturally aspirated engines?
The short format helps to keep editing and preparation times down - I already spend way too much time on the big campaign playthrough. So more in-depth tutorials probably need to wait a bit :)
The thing is in this case, you'd want to raise the rev limit on the gold engine so that you'd get back into the high power zone after shifting. Now of course, that's assuming you can do this wihout blowing valves or something else through the bonnet. Then, you'd also want to modify gear ratios to be closer and final to be shorter if you're not shooting for higher top speed, increasing acceleration further.
Sure, in general, you want to maximize the area under the power curve through the range of RPMs you're gonna be using the most, and having a linear power curve that peaks right at rev limit is very stupid, but there is also a world where you flatten the curve too much for a racing application and just lose potential. In the end, the whole powertrain is a system, and considering the engine alone is not a good approach. A close ratio gearbox won't be great with a wide powerband at low - mid RPMs, while more spread out gear ratios will not allow you to get the best out of a peaky race engine.
I probably should have said that this applies when the engine internals are already at their limit and don't want to rev any higher. Of course for any motorsport application you normally go for the maximum rpm limit possible. So the video applies to the case when you already have set your rpm limit.
You're also right about it's not only about the power/torque curve, but about the overall car and especially gearing. The whole thing is less of a problem the more gears you have available.
I'd love a tutorial on the ins and outs of exhaust/intake tuning
Right now I just kind of match the flow graphs but I'm not entirely sure if that's correct
If you're matching the flow graphs you are already doing half of the job right! The other half is about different resonances for the different header types, basically giving you a torque/power boost at specific rpm ranges (higher ranges for more sporty/racey header types). That's the short tutorial, I'll note the idea down :)
Great content, Bayer. I would love to hear more general tips and tricks about Automation from you. I generally love that you focus more on more natural builds, rather than just trying to make the most insane 500KPH automobile that the game mechanics allow, which would never exist in real life.
I like Automation but I very much do not understand it, so videos on the topic of how to build for a given purpose - economy, utility, prestige, sport, racing - would be much appreciated!
Most people don't really understand the relationship between torque and power, even though they'll tell you that they do. People also underestimate gear ratios and their effect on wheel torque.
Having an engine with max RPM 500RPM higher than peak power also has the potential to allow you to use a higher average peak torque/power, and gives greater flexibility with gear ratios
Absolutly wonderful. We NEED more of this!!
Thanks for the advice man.
Looking forward to your next Cisalpina video !
I love making turbo engines, allows me to better spec out my engine and deliver the torque I need for both fuel efficiency and speed
It's mildly funny to me that Killrobs version of this video was made back when Automation was just an engine designer.
Hello first comment from Indonesia here.
I'd like to learn more about suspension in automation and in beamng. Maybe a comparison between everyday use and track use would be great. Or if that's too much a different to compare, it might be better to compare suspension for light sports car and track car.
Btw, I really am enjoying your campaign series. Thanks
What I try to do, after variable valve lift is available, if I am building a sporty engine, is to place the main cam profile fairly low (around 30), the second cam profile fairly high, and turn the turbo so that it kicks in about 1500 RPM before the second cam, to minimize power delivery valleys.
Before that, I go to DOHC valvetrain but keep cam and ignition timing fairly mild if have no means to tune the engine to keep linear gear shifts strictly within the power band.
This is the best explanation of power curve
Personally i rarely fall for this power trap i do prefer nice and flat power "shelf" as i call it
Great video! The only thing I'm missing is a reference to the Performance stat. This is often highest when you have about 500rpm to spare, depending on the power band of course. So if you're not sure you're what's better, that should be a good indicator. I don't know how accurate it is, though.
You're absolutely right! It's a generic stat guiding you into the right direction, but in the end it all depends not only on the torque curve, but also on gearing. The stat definitely points you towards building less peaky engines, so it is a good guidance and I should have mentioned it.
great video; we should try and get this stickied on the automation groups!
Ferrari 360 has peak power at max rpm (~395hp @ 8500rpm). But up until that point for about 1000rpm the curve stays relatively flat. So not cutting off power is good, but what people should really be aiming for is a usable relatively flat curve before max rpm (at least with sporty engines), even if peak power is at max rpm
Real car companies (and their managers and their customers) also fall for the numbers game :) You need to have a higher power number than your competitor, as this adds additional prestige in the real world. Automation does not simulate this in the campaign though!
@@the.bavarian yeah, but still before shifting you've got 1000 rpm range of flat curve, so they did put some effort into making it usable lol
this is a great video for allot of players out there, as it always bugged me With cutting power at Peak
It always irritated me when people on youtube made these kind of engines with a powercurve and rpm limit combination that makes no sense. This video cures that irritation :D
Ah, thanks for letting me know. I was building dyno-queens...
Very useful video, I've made that mistake myself
so many hours never thought of this. thank you haha
Pls make more videos like this
We def need more video like this
Der Bayer with a Der Banger as per usual. also if you didnt know, those fixtures exporting as white can be fixed by selecting them in automation and changing the material. The chrome it defaults as is broken.
Yeah I didn't double-check my beam exports this time. Visual quality was an afterthought for this video :)
Very informative video thanks! Like many people im always struggling with suspension and handling setups. My cars can't take corners very well. Can you make a short and informative video like this?
idea noted, thanks! :)
Think MR V send me here 👋
Great game. Still need to buy it.
Watching the tutorials first before i begin to tinker around.
Welcome! Unfortunately I don't have many real tutorials yet, but I hope you can extract a bit of knowledge from the playthroughs! :)
Can you pleas make a tutorial how you make interiors? What mods you use stuff like that. your interiors look great even though you say you don't spend much time on it. Also how about some tips and tricks in designs? I saw you using vents of all things for lights and even wings for details and taillights
noted, thanks! :)
Hast du nen Video für engine making? Weil meine Motoren haben immer ne sehr hohe torque curve und low Hp und andere Probleme.
This reminds me of RCR talking about the differences between the Viper and late generation Corvettes. The Viper he noted has poor low-end torque, and with the car's long gearing it doesn't easily jump off the line like the Corvette does, but makes much more power later on in the curve.
Der bayer not missing lately
More moovies like this :)
Never thought about it. Time to build proper sport engine and stop torture valves while trying make power curve straight at 12,000 rpm's limit
Great video!!!!!
Thank you so much for the very good tutorial can you post tutorials on how to play a campaign in different styles like luxury or sport ? That would really help me because every company I build always goes bankrupt after about 3 years
Yeah I want to do a "campaign basics" tutorial a lot, although it needs a bit of planning. Your issue sounds like one of these issues (or a combination): Not good enough cars, overproduction, not enough profit margin.
I know nothing about the engineering side of this stuff nor can i read the graphs that well because im stupid lil country boy but even i get this right (also i usually feel it out through testing if im messing some thing up on a engine and generally try and keep the engine as smooth as possible and not peeky)
Hey! I'm building some cars for a rally series in my channel, and this will actually help me quite a lot!!!
Any idea when the mm content will be done?
No concrete information about the timing yet, but I am working on it almost on a daily basis.
Maybe it is my eyes playing tricks but the bad example torque curve looks flatter than the good one.
You're probably right, the "good" example as a large torque bump in the mid range, so it does not look as "flat". What I meant was that mid-range torque should get a lot more attention and you should not only focus on top-end torque/power.
As someone that daily drives a car with juicy midrange and peak power nearly 700rpm before redline with torque for days, I know not to make this mistake.
Look my LS / Small Block Chevy inspired engine can't take anymore rpm 😭
What microphone do you use?
In this case I used a cheap Samseon Meteor USB Mic (without pop filter as you might be able to hear in some spots). Sometimes I use my Beyerdynamics MMX 300 headset.
my curves are always upside down 🤷♂
Thank you!!!
Brilliant vid! Please update your mod collection on steam as it crashes my game upon loading!
That's weird. I will investigate after the Mille Monti stuff, as my own collection is completely messed up with all kinds of mods right now.
Remember to paint your bumpers crome in automatio, otherwise they come out as white in beamng.
Yeah, I didn't double-check the exported cars, as I wanted to be quick with this video and visual quality was not my top concern :)
Thanks!
No wonder why nuovavia that u make was pretty slow 😅
Great video, love this style, too bad I make arhana shit boxes instead. Who needs a radio in 1990
Yeah, probably not the right video for you then :D
I would never do that with an engine. (Cough, cough).🤥
Yes
❤
Got it