Why High FPS Matters
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- Competitive gamers and esports pros aim for the highest FPS possible to give them every competitive advantage. We take a look at how this all works on your PC and why FPS, powered by the latest GPUs, offers gamers a competitive advantage by improving animation smoothness, reducing the effect of ghosting and tearing, and lowering system latency.
To see the effects of high FPS in action watch the High FPS CS:GO SLO-MO Video: • GeForce Powered High F...
For more information on how high frames and refresh rate help in competitive gaming visit www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/...
Check out www.frameswingames.com to see how our GeForce GPUs can provide the FPS needed to maximize your competitiveness in Battle Royales and First Person Shooters.
Subscribe to GeForce! th-cam.com/channels/L-g.html...
GeForce Twitter: / nvidiageforce
GeForce Facebook: / nvidiageforce
GeForce Instagram: / nvidiageforce
#FramesWinGames
#CS:GO
#CompetitiveGaming
#Esports - เกม
*He just called me poor for 6 minutes straight*
Really man. Me too. Why they are making this kinda video?😭
rofl :D
Helio Rider your not alone m8
My man
Still using gtx 660
Finally, an ad good enough to click and watch
Didnt even notice this was an add until I read this 😂
I agree
Foreal
On god
Ikr
And then there is me, rocking at a crispy smooth 25fps.
Noah Gonzalez lmao
I'm so far back I dont even know this language
No job?
@@BenR99 ?
24fps is all you need. (For film)
Tony comparing 60hz with 240hz
144hz: Aight imma head out.
@Vertex Gaming thanks lol, imagine being a normal ass boring person
@Vertex Gaming did you just reply to yourself xD
@Vertex Gaming umm read his previous comment he say worst comment, not weird.........
If you look at the graph at the end showing in-game performance data, it shows that there are diminishing returns as frame rates go up, so it implies there is less of an advantage gained by the jump from 144 Hz to 240.
Litteraly me
The first ad I’ve ever willingly clicked on
Same
Bruh same here
My fps "hurts"
Same
Same
crazy how 60fps is the new 30fps
Ikr. I remember when I first got 60 frames consistently and it was such a boost and now I'm at 144 and I have getting posses my pc was doing 90 fps lmao.
they always need something new to sell you on
I get 34 on CSGO everything on low
@@jakeaber432 :(
@@tempestindustries9446 That's nothing lmfao.
So every online game is pay to win, theoretically
Correct
Depends on cocaine intake
@@Home_Rich and since when was it free?
yeah, but I think its more impactful in FPS games.
@@hirokjyotideka5571
Did I just get aneurism? I didn't say any price.
144 hz: Am I a joke to u?
60 hz here lol
I wish I could afford 240hz, but now I'm waiting for 4K 144Hz to get commercial: cheaper and from more brands!
360
@@disuse7460 i dont even think 360hz is any better than 240hz. Plus 360hz is only 1080p, and also almost no game runs at 360hz consistently even with the highest end hardware out there, so you might as well get 1440p 240hz way better option in my opinion
60 always seemed high to me, 30 has always been the standard for me
Bruh hes making 144 fps irrelevant 😂
For real
Great marketing, lol. Sells more top-end graphic cards and 240hz gsync monitors...two birds with one stone.
Lol they have like a 300 something monitor now
@@lordfarquaadgaming9316 yup, 360hz, but its practically useless for 90% of games
@@itsmaki7203 but more FRAMES lol. Welp time to buy a 300 frame monitor lmao
Nivida: High FPS matters
Me: It runs 60 FPS! Yes!
I always thought 60 fps was supposed to be fast but I guess I was wrong!
@@someguystudios23 in all games yes csgo no
@@obama69890 oh. why? fast pace?
Haha im glad if I get constant 30 frames
@@someguystudios23 yeah. Pretty much. It was more of a joke on how nvidia advertised 240fps. 60 fps is fine in all games but more is welcome.
Alternative title: why we want your money:
true
Nvidia dosent makes monitors
Why do I think I'm gonna get wooshed
@@imrobuilder5797 **Doom Music Playing**
WHOO-
[Hexaltheninja wow has been disconnected from server]
More like : why you need to give us your money...
You realize thats every ad ever right?
I love how he's ripping into 60 fps and I'm over here playing on 8 🙃.
Im over here playing on 40
@@MCPEAnthony brah I'll trade
@@MCPEAnthony same
Try 6
@@Seb24812 brah try 0 👀lol
It's like they think we choose to not have high frame rates. 😔
joe nodden 144Hz should be good enough and cheaper👍
There are people who actually do
@@chuckktclutch2609 bruh dat monitor I'd more expensive than my pc
@@user-zh1ee7mf1j can get a used 144hz 1ms for like 150 sometimes less, if you're lucky.
@@lacedup6809 my PC was 150$
I still can't believe how choppy 60 Hz monitors feel after getting used to 144.
Ikr
I went from 60 to 240hz then after so many months I went to play on console 60hz and oh my god I literally sold my consoles I could not play on 60hz
Issa me to I went from 75Hz straight to 240Hz, and 144Hz feels not smooth! 😅
biohazard I’m not really sure about 144hz never used one personally.. is there much difference? From 240 & 144? I here mixture of people saying there barely any difference
Issa yes there is a difference. People are saying that 240Hz is a rip-off and that our eyes cannot see it. That is total rubbish. Since I’ve been playing at 240Hz for about 7 months now, i am definitely much better at playing games than I was at 75Hz. 240Hz is worth it if you have the money.
Y’all know this ad is trying to get us excited for the 360hz monitor
Oh yeah yeah
@@samislucid7100 oh yeah yeah yeah y*e*ah..
rip 144hz players like me xd
Oh yeah yeah
Me: *sees thumbnail*
Also me: "ah yes, higher fps can transform your ak into an m4"
lol
That would mean m4 is vastly better. Is it really?
lol
I’m out here with 60fps and streamers are like “dang i only got 2500fps literally unplayable
OneGreatChap Spmetimes it’s ping related lag
Lol I'm over here playing on 30fps I could just imagine how bad it is (I'm a fortnite player on switch)
Angel Saeteros i play on mobile myself. My old one only ran 30 fps but my new one can sometimes run 60
@@blackfire6654 😂 Get a PC you peasant.
@@NSSweat You don't have to imagine it you can see it. A family member of mine owns a switch and it gets down to 20 fps at times due to how slow the switch is. Any normal person can tell that's laggy.
This is hard to watch for a guy who can't afford to upgrade his pc
i finally afford and bought my pc rig but what i really need is a 144hz monitor :(
The pain
I feel you mehn
I just bought for 150 a set 1920 1080p 60 hz samsung and a hpz400 xeon w3520 with r9 280x
I am playing r6s at ultra 75-100 fps👌
So they’re saying “give us more money and you’ll be better”. Gotcha
Nvidia doesn't make monitors
@@fica1137 No but they make gpu's and a better gpu means more frames.
Well... Yeah. Every product has some value. They're just stating why their product has better value than others, and why it could give you a competitive edge. Its like, the point of the product. Its been done by every product, if you don't show the use of the product why would anyone buy it.
Thank you for explaining and illustrating this complex nebulous subject matter in a very easy to understand format. I never really understood how it works before now.
guys
the video is 30 fps
Thats why they show it in slow mo
People are so gullible its ridiculous
no siema no
no siema no siema no siema no
I'm triggered.
Tony: "Higher frame rate is better"
Me: 'Can't get above 30fps
Also Me: "Finally, I have an excuse"
Bruh you use your cpu graphics, how had it not exploded playing games
William Somerville I used to be global elite with an average FPS of 40 smh 🤦🏽♂️
Ryzen igpus are actually decent, unlike intel crappics
Higher FPS = gpu temp get higher
FPS doesnt really matter if u dont care for smoothness of ur screen. players with 240 fps see the same player u see on 60 fps comming out of the corner for example 0.7 seconds or 70 ms earlier than u
which i dont think that really matters in a game
Interesting deep dive, glad this popped in my feed.
Very easy understanding and informative. Thank you 😊
4:07 they censored the name...but not at the top >.>
lol
They censored the word enemy, its extrimly offensive.
@@ogvito3912 😶
Ni Sus the name of the game is counter srtike global offensive if you didnt know
@@sagevexx7906 Yeah?Alright, then this game should be completely banned.
Y’all talking about all this fancy schmanchy stuff meanwhile I’m literally playing on a 20-year old 45 FPS TV
cough 1994 tv right next to me
Bro my console is 30 FPS
Moron
Actually, old CTR monitors can do around 90hz at virtually 0 ghosting.
"45 FPS TV" m8 you don't get how displays work at all now do you.
This is an excellently informative video. Nice work!
Excellent video on this technical topic. Very useful information. Thank you!
Finally a good explanation I can send to my friends when explaining this type of stuff
@Vector G no u
@Vector G also...
EMOJI POLICE
@Vector G what the hell does that mean
Except for the thumbnail.
OMG me too!
Imagine consoles players seeing 60fps for the first time
lolll
@Christian Reyna ok boomer
@Christian Reyna well they can play at 60 fps, but it isn't always 60 fps.
specify_ it IS always 60 FPS, at least on PS4
@@phyrim7890 in terms of hardware, PS4 is superior than Xbox, but both cant either run at a steady 60 fps in a graphic-intense game like Rise of the Tomb Raider. that game eats up my Ryzen 7 2700X + RX 5700XT at around 100+ fps max settings 1080p
Thank you for making this video. Very informative.
This is actually a nice video and a good start point to the topic! Of course we don't have access to that K/D improvement over FPS "study" and it's made by the company that sells GPU, but I don't care that much if it's true or not, I just care about smoothness.
me: cries in 40 fps low settings in overwatch
i used to have to work with 30 locked. even then it would lag. now i got an up to date pc, and i highly recommend it! it’s worth it!
@@nothintoseeheremovealong9372 anyone who can upgrade their PC's will my guy. It's just that a lot of us are tight on funds.
Minecraft:lowest setings posible fps:about 40 30 minites later Minecraft crash this video me poor
I can't even play Overwatch
Chicken Head for some reason overwatch runs like shit on 40fps
Excellent video, thank you for taking the time to make this. It really broke down the specifics of framerate that I didn't understand.
Thank you for this. This is very interesting
A quite interesting ad, clicked on it and didn’t regret. Good video.
This information in a video format makes for a perfect Christmas present. This video helped clear thing up a little bit more.
Technically just telling us to buy more of their stuff
@Random gameplay guy If u dont agree with me ur opinion is wrong
@@jackjackson5498 no u
@@ahh3520 fuck
This is the first thing I thought when I saw who made it. Like, more fps is better! Don't hear people that say otherwise and buy our shit! Lol
The thing I hate the most is that they the fps arent spread equally and that u notice this less with more fps but u can completly fix that with vsync
This made my parents understand that i need a 144 hz monitor instead of a 50 hz tv...
Great video and curious what frame rate this video was shot in because the mouth movements look really smooth. Was expecting it to be 60fps but maybe it's 30.
Great part on the explanation of V-Sync, thanks Tony.
it's good to see you guys learn
and make actually educative videos about the topic rather than ads
and it might be even more effective than a straight-up ad for me at least
@@user-no3tu9kh3p well yes but at least it isn't deceptive
like the insanely low bar we have for most ads
@@user-no3tu9kh3p sure iam willing to belive that argument
what are some of this problems that are not affected by modern games?
Thanks for the ELI5 because I'm fairly new to "heavier" games and I had no idea what people were talking about tbh when they talked about FPS and d-sync, ghosting, etc. I get it now.
What’s funny is if you look at the slow motions, the difference from 60 to 144 is massive, yet the difference from 144-240 is hardly noticeable. In fact in another video they actually tested pro gamer reaction times across different monitors and shroud hit 9 out of 10 shots on both 144 and 240 hz. Your eyes actually can’t detect much of a difference beyond a certain frame point. The point I’m making is you don’t need a 240, a 144 is still perfectly fine and costs way less.
when you can't afford 240 please stay at 144 or at 45 with me and my dear old 980ti
I recently switched to 144Hz monitor.
The difference between 60Hz vs 144Hz is insane.
Everything is now smooth and I do not feel so dizzy anymore in some games.
Cannot wait to switch from 144Hz to 300Hz in the future ;D
This video was and still is incredibly helpful. I would really like to see more of these more regularly, possibly from the same guy cause i like his way of explaining stuff
Unfortuantly he is probably reading a script someone else wrote. I liked it also though.
This doesn't even matter, the human eye can only see up to about 60 frames per second so the only way you would notice a difference is by slowing down your game play
Good explanation. Learned something new here
Thank you for creating this video. In theory this all makes sense. Could you do a video where this is explained in real time gaming. I would like to understand how one would feel the actual difference between monitors with different fps
144Hz: Am I a joke to you
Yes G-Sync. You are a joke🤣🤣🤣
How about 75Hz
165hz gang
Literally me
@@noahyang3589 165 is legit a waste of money.
If you bought a 165 Hz monitor why? You could have easily found a 240 Hz monitor for just a little more money
Marketing. "So you better buy a more expensive card and monitor!"
or keep the old 60hz monitor and graphics card
Dont forget CPU
Nope but you don't go rage when you killed in an FPS multiplayer because of latency :)
@@user-no3tu9kh3p Rainbow Six don't approve your sentence :)
Exactly what NVIDIA does to us
I learnt alot thanks for the info
This was helpful, thank you
Finally we have some validity. This video plus the one from Linus Tech Tips titled:Does High FPS make you a better gamer? (Credit) Great info between these two.
The final graphic shows that higher frame rate helps you succeed in gaming. I think it is the other way around. People who are good at games will buy better gaming setups with higher frame rates.
Facts. Also it's so shameless to plug "If you buy our shit your K/D will go up." That's a direct appeal to all these fortnight idiots and people who suck at FPS games to Pay to win, which in all honesty, isn't going to change much for them even if they DID invest in a higher capability system.
They also fail to mention the degree of slowdown used to represent their "Visual aids" its probably something like 10,000% Slow Mo or something stupid to make the differences seem THAT much more pronounced. Not saying what he is saying isn't true because it is. But the difference between a 144FPS and 240 FPS game running smoothly in real time is NOT that different.
*TL:DR Don't always buy into marketing hype when it's highly manipulative. Look on Amazon at all the Monitor "Examples" some of them literally make me lol while looking at them. For things like HDR/Non-HDR and their "FPS comparisons" are even more hilariously embellished*
@@GoogleUsedToLetThisNameBeLong Thats like saying a taller and heavier version of a mma fighter wouldnt make him better, FPS and refresh rate matters, deal with it, you will be stunted a lot from your REAL SKILL and will have to put a lot more exhausting effort by playing on a low fps toaster and thats far from being fun in any way.
@@GoogleUsedToLetThisNameBeLong tbh in csgo (the game he demonstrates the fps thing) higher fps then 144 won't realy change anything if you are bad already it will help if you are good so it won't automatically make you a god or somthing, people destroyed me with 60hz monitors while I have 2000 hours Into that game so yea unless you are an esports player very high fps won't be such a detrimental thing as he's trying to show. allso having very high fps allso have downsides like more microstutters and hiccups (mostly depends on the game and the engine) and your system more overheating.
@@ExtensofacasBr you see what you said is the truth sadly someone at 200 fps kills someone at 60 fps and actually has the gall to believe they are better, it's completely unbalanced obviously.
1:48 *I've literally never noticed this in my entire life*
Probably because you haven't tried a 240hz monitor
Kote Kutalia That doesn’t even make sense, He’s saying your character has like shadows or something on a 60 hertz monitor, and there are no shadows on 240 hertz monitor. I’ve always been on either 60 hertz or a 75 hertz monitor, yet I’ve NEVER noticed these shadows.
I just watched more of the video and realized the “shadows” is called ghosting.
@@immasnarl292 there is ghosting effect on 240Hz monitors as well, this is an artifact of such LCD monitors. If you haven't noticed, good for you.
@@KU-sx4um Sorry, I feel bad.
"Why High FPS Matters"
My omen laptop: haha heat go brr
I'm convinced you can fry an egg on those considering running GTA V has me recoil in pain off the top of it due to how hot it runs.
4:04 - I love how the name is blurred, but not in the killfeed. RIP Eluzive.
EDIT: The second link in the description is broken.
Jeff Noël lol
Console gamers: “but our eyes can’t see above 60fps 🙄”
Wym
I'm a pro conaole player
Solid Snake I’m sure 😂
@@reidfisher6205 yeah.. I am. Dont beleive me? 1v1 me
PCMR:You're not just wrong, you're stupid!
This is absolutely fantastic! Thank you for explaining it and showing visual examples to this dummy.
The video title is
"Why you need to sell your kidney"
Why is this an Ad you might ask. He is literally selling you their monitors graphics cards and Nvidia laptops ;)
Now i get it where my shots goes even after hitting on head xD
Thank you for making the ad interesting.
this is a real video where they know what they are talking about not like other TH-camrs who just cud assemble and PC and behave like they are some sort of software engineers. He knows what he is talking about. great video
Cool, I think I need a new Radeon to improve my gameplay
xD
Yeap, with a freesync for free.
Radeon? Junk
@@Spectru91 You're just not used to it, NVIDIA's marketing has gotten bad these days...
Too bad you can't buy skills. Oh wait, even if skils could be purchased NVIDIA owners would be the only ones who could afford it.
i was literally just shopping cyber Monday when this video was posted
Haha no shit this is nvidia whispering into your ear " pick 2070 super to 2080ti"
@@danacklin1952 lmao
Good video to show my friends and explain things
FINALY THE VIDEO THAT SIMPLIFIED HOW FOS WORKS. visual people like me like these kinds of vids. No jargons etc. SIMPLE YET DETAILED
When your happy reaching 60 fps 😔
when you happy atleast your pc can run it
So true my friend, I'm saving up to upgrade
When your pc take +5mint to load map and in end you got 30mint cool down coz u took too long time to join match :'/
True bro
When you are happy reaching 30 fps
When u realoze that u cant even play on 60 fps 🤣😭😭
I felt that
I love when editor forget to post the link bellow and nobody notice in years... Great demonstration, internal lag its obviouslly a HS from difference. Quite impressive. But I still looking for that PUBG and Fortnite study
The chart at the end with k/d ratio compare to fps cracked me up, I genuinly laughed out loud
Of course, there's also a massive correlation between how serious someone is about being good at a game and how much money they will spend on their rig. Serious gamers, with serious machines are practising a lot more and getting better.
Can't be sure, but I'd be willing to bet that if you did this experiment with only pro gamers (or only novices) and had them play at different frame rates then then the difference would be far smaller.
Me: “I’m in .”
Also me:
“Why is everyone writing like this ?”
This video was absolutely helpful
This is good thanks for making this
This is a little shady at 5:17 you can see the 240hz footage is different than 144hz and 60hz. There's a bullet hole decal next to the pipe along the top of the slope in the 240hz and is not present in the others which tells me these videos are intentionally recorded at different times becoming desynced with the walk cycle of the character with results in the 60hz looking slower when it is in fact most likely the same with only less animation frames being displayed. Less FPS does not slow down where a characters movement speed it only shows less animation frames to get there.
Nvidia: *gives console peasants the finger*
*angrily throws wallet at sony in confusion*
I like console because there's no hackers. I love it. Everyone at an even playing field
@@bobelserr5441 lmao yeah right! People have been playing online with hacked gaming consoles since the dawn of online console gaming. Actually, the original Xbox was infamous for that.
@@bobelserr5441 PS3 COD WAW wants to know your location.
@@codyyates2806 the new gen dumbass
Great explanation!!!!
I really like nvidia explain it in very simple way. Nice very educative video nvidia 👍
when i look at this video. im shock damn it. did 144hz so much difference again 240hz like this video? really nvidia? i dont think so
I been on 60fps on 60hz monitor all this years and I been gaming just fine cant complain but a good to know video thanks.
Only once you play on a high refresh rate would you realise the difference. Once you play on a high refresh rate monitor and go back im sure you'll notice how big a difference it makes.
same, been gaming on 60fps 60hz for several years and im very happy. I certainly don't need a high refresh rate monitor to be good at games, but 144hz is definitely much better than 60
@@westernspy561 try it m8, it's a mind blowing experience
I was the same then i got 144hz and after 1 week i never wanted to touch a 60hz again
Exactly the same. No problem playing at 60fps, lousy players will always find excuse. This is just marketing, to buy yet another graphic card.
thank u for explaining very well
cheers to u and god bless u ♥♥♥
I think the example shown in the thumbnail can ALSO look similar when on high ping I never realized how much high ping can impact image quality I always perceived ping with how reactive actions were registered via the server I didn’t know that it could impact image as well
6:00 they probably have higher FPS because they game more therefore they have a better system because they invest in what they love. The cart before the horse.
Thats what i was thinking, people who have expensive hardware are typically more invested in video games than somebody casual who is playing on their work computer. The best way to survey this would be to get multiple people who have little to no experience gaming and test their kd ratio. Mostly because most experienced gamers are already used to certain settings such as a 144 hz monitor, so they would feel a switch to say 60hz more drastically than somebody who hasnt ever used a 144+ hz monitor.
Carson Taylor ya set up a simple random sample where people are randomized to a rig.
I'm just now getting into pc gaming and a 240 hz monitor is too expensive for my tight budget, so I'm happy with my 60hz monitor for now thank you very much.
I have 240HZ ASUS ROG PG258Q. It is expensive, but it worth every dollar even comparing to 144HZ.
FavoredꣲGamer22119 look at LG 27GK750F-B 27. 27 inch 240 hz 1080 p monitor thats only 240. i have it and it does wonders
Nicely Explained Mister ✨
I wish I knew about these before today. If you can explain it to me and I actually understood it (which I did) then anyone can understand. THANK YOU very much.
this video in a nutshell: you need high fps because if you slow down the footage it doesn't look perfect, even if you don't notice it during normal not slowed down gameplay...
Similarly you could slow down the video and make 240 fps look like shit, just like the 60fps in this case. Also funny how they showed players with 180 fps play almost TWICE as much better than those with 60fps, such bullshit lmao.
Its mutch easier to aim and hit the enemy if you play on 240 hz, and with a shitload of fps. Cs:go in 60 fps is not just look bad, but also unplayable. If you play with 60 fps you will be at a huge disadvantage paying against someone who is playing on 240hz 300 fps for example. They slowed down the footage because it easyer to see the difference, not because you cant notice it if its normal speed.
The video in a nutsell would be more like: You need high fps, because its a better experience.
Also if they dont slow down the video, how can they show difference when youtube only allow 60 fps? And even if they can show 240 fps footage, some things you cant see, only if you are playing, like for example input lag is only noticiable to the player.
Alternate title: NVIDIA tries desperately to convince you to buy a 2080 Ti
I bought a 3060ti
Friends couldn’t explain as good as he did in this video. Enjoyed watching.
This cleared up so much
Interesting... What if I run a CRT monitor, wouldn't that give me the best advantage?
Digital foundry did a video on crt monitors with modern games. Check it out :)
Digital foundry did a video on CRT monitors with modern games. Check it out :)
@@phantom_eternal thx man for the info th-cam.com/video/V8BVTHxc4LM/w-d-xo.html
Yes it would
CRTs are better
Advertises high frame rate yet also advertises ray tracing. 🙄
Competitive games do not have DXR/Vulkan-RT so that is irrelevant. Also, like all technology, you have to start somewhere. Eventually future Nvidia, AMD, and Intel GPUs will be able to do "Ray Tracing" much faster.
They also have both Nintendo Switch socs and pc discrete gpus 🙄
Ray tracing is shit its better to make 140 screen resolution instead of 100
In conclusion, buy a Rtx Titan
@Tasso like msi
I didn’t even know it was an add, I just like this kind of stuff
Even though I already knee thr basics it was nice to understand a bit more in-depth on how this works. Now its more reason tonget a 240 Hz monitor upgrade as my next upgrade. (Just got a nee pc and 144 Hz monitor)
The guy: talks about 60hz and 240hz
144hz: Am I a joke to you?
The truth is if you have a 144hz monitor already, you don’t need a 240.
Of course you do! Duh!
240 almost doubles your skillz.
the only reason for a 240hz monitor today = no input lag.
about 5ms theoretical difference between 144hz and 240hz frame times, assuming you have the computer to push those frames. Not worth it if you already have one but if you don't then you should just get a 240
fireroc2 do you think ryzen 5 3600x + 1660 Ti is enough to push that frames at csgo low/mid settings? Because i need to buy a monitor these days
@@sekdermek yes, it can easily in 4:3 resolutions and even full hd low with no problemo
I was hoping you would mention motion clarity in this video cause I feel like a lot of people don't understand how important it is to have a monitor with high motion clarity in fps games
I don’t think he mentioned it bc even on low clarity settings the actual purpose for a monitor doesn’t change. Your game play is still smooth and you still have the same gameplay outcome.
Please include time period value along with the test animations to evaluate our need properly