i’ve been a part of a gospel hall my whole life and this is really the first time i’m learning about this. it’s a bummer and i can’t find any other youtube videos on these topics! i’m impressed with how accurately you explained closed assembly gospel halls
Thanks! I have a couple more videos coming out this year about Plymouth Brethren. Bible Chapels particularly, but I think you'll still find them interesting.
Dear friend, I literally stumbled upon your channel a few hours ago and have not been able to stop watching your videos. They are so well put together and easy to understand. Being part of an IFB church and community, I am very knowledgeable of its doctrines and traditions and your conclusions are 100% accurate and unbiased. Based on that, your information upon other denominations is validated in my eyes. Thank you so much for putting this all together! Your videos will be an invaluable resource for my wife and I. Keep it up!
Hello Nathaniel. I would like to ask you a question.. As an IFB do you believe God still heals today? I have been saved for a year now and joined a church without knowing about denominations but recently discovered the church I attend is part of the 5 fold ministry and is very charismatic. I am looking for a new church and do agree with IFBs views but struggle understand the topic of spiritual gifts today. Kind regards
@@key36341 Hello Mrs. Harris, I certainly believe in God's ability to heal but to answer your question more directly -I would classify myself as a cessationist in regard to the apostolic sign gifts. The most simple reference I can point to is 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Now that we have the full revelation of God in the cannon of Scripture I believe that sign gifts are ceased. As you read through Acts, you will find each instance of sign gifts (such as healing/ tongues etc) served to verify the authenticity of the Gospel message to the Jews. (The Jews require a sign). Now that we have the word of God we no longer need miraculous verification. However, there is much more to this than what I have given. I recommend a book by Pastor James W. Knox called "Signs, Wonders, and Miracles". This is the most accurate information I can point you to in regard to mine and most other Baptist Christians' stance on gifts of the Spirit. I pray that the Lord will lead you into all truth. God Bless!
@@key36341 I know this is late but as an IFB guy, I believe that God can still perform miraculous events and heals people. But the thing we see on Modern Churches(Pentecostals, Methodists, Charismatics, etc.) are just a fake counterfeit of God's miracles.
I almost never comment, but was really impressed by the research you did in this video and how clearly you outlined the differences/similarities. As someone who is a fifth-generation Open Brethren Christian, I thought that you packed a ton of information into this video. Of course, the nuances -- which can't really be captured in an 8 min video -- are always interesting. For example, many Brethren don't realize the role women preachers played early in the movement's history (and there is a growing number of Brethren assemblies that are egalitarian); the movement's Lord's Supper practice has been partly shaped by Quaker practices (as there were Quakers among its early adherents); and so much more. I think this video really knocked it out of the park, though! Definitely subscribing.
I grew up in an "assembly" after we left the pentacostal church. This is an amazing summary! Thank you! I am familiar with all of the historical guys you mentioned. I come from the open side, but I loved reading about Watchman Nee. In any case, thanks for this summary.
I just recently came across your videos and I want to let you know you have done an AMAZING AWESOME job at condensing down complicated confusing topics into short segments in a way that is presented in such an INCREDIBLY neutral way that it does not disparage either side. I know the views are not super high yet, but I want to let you know, you’re doing an EXCELLENT job and I want to encourage you to keep going. Discussing and explaining differences between views is very difficult without showing partiality, but, man you are doing an absolutely AMAZING job at presenting it as *neutrally* as HUMANLY POSSIBLE and that deserves A LOT of respect.😊
Thank you.I just want some clarification.When you use the word ecumenical" do you mean interdenominational because today when one uses the word ecumenical they usually refer to membership in the World Council of Churches and adhering to its practice.
Similar characteristics to 'open' and 'closed' christian brethren in zambia. open christian brethren aka chapels being more common in the copperbelt while the closed christian brethren aka gospel halls more common in lusaka...
I spotted a Plymouth Brethren Christian Church in a new housing estate in my city. I didn't know it was a renaming of The Exclusive Brethren lead by Hales. I have a relative who is a member of a Brethren assembly which he describes as 'Non-Taylor Exclusive' Brethren. This is a reference to a former 'Elect Vessel' Mr Taylor who once got very drunk at a meeting in Scotland and began to swear. That caused some members to split.
I remember, some years ago, reading some of a transcript of that 'meeting' in Aberdeen that you mentioned - I couldn't finish reading the document. It made me feel almost physically nauseated, it was so horrifying. It saddens me to think that there are so many believers caught up in the system which was perpetuated by J Taylor Jnr and carried on the form of the PBCC, and I'm always thankful that my parents and grandparents were guided by the Lord at the division in 1970. I was born in 1989, long after the events of the 1960s, and if I'd been born into the system I would never have known the truth about the division - there but for the grace of God I might have gone.
is there not also structured services? in my, albeit limited, experience in brethren churches then communion services are open and unstructured but there are also structured communion services
Having grown up in a Plymouth Brethren church, I can say both that I learned something from this video and that I can offer some words of clarification and correction to the video. It is stated in the video that the Exclusive Brethren are shying away from the name "Plymouth Brethren" to distance themselves from the Raven-Taylor-Hales Brethren and the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. In my experience, Plymouth Brethren have never called themselves Plymouth Brethren. They insist on calling themselves nothing other than Christians. If you were to tell rank and file PB's that they are PB's, I think they'd be surprised, never having heard the term before. That was my reaction when I was in high school and somebody from another church told me I belonged to the PB movement. I think the church I grew up in was an Open Assembly of the Open Brethren--primarily because our church was called a "chapel." All those in leadership positions were quite mysterious and tight-lipped about the origins of our church, wanting us only to look to the Bible and nothing else. The church's attitude verged on bibliolatry. There was a married couple who moved to our town from the other side of the USA who sometimes let things slip that we weren't supposed to know about. One time they mentioned "the list of the assemblies" which told where you could attend chapel services if you were out of town on a Sunday. I asked if I could see this list, and I was denied. It was something I wasn't supposed to know about. My chapel practised closed communion. The communion service was early on Sunday morning, before the public worship service which was open to all. The communion service was very secretive. Its existence wasn't published in any of the chapel's printed materials, and it was never mentioned from the pulpit. It was all very hush-hush. When I was older, I learned about the distinction between Calvinists and Arminians. I didn't know what my chapel was, but I did know it wasn't either of those. I only recently learned that what it teaches is called Free Grace theology. I dunno how integral this is to the PB movement, or if it more a distinctive only of my local chapel. To sum it up, I would say that the main distinctives of the chapel I grew up in are Free Grace theology, extreme biblicism, and devotion to J. N. Darby's eschatology as filtered through Hal Lindsey.
I think you would be considered exclusive by the Taylor hales faction (it’s based off of “lords table” and who they recognize as “gathered in his name). Many exclusives believe that if you give communion to a non believer, not only will the nonbeliever receive punishment, but the congregation as well. Open assemblies aren’t as paranoid about their fellow assemblies or who their elders are. Exclusives tend to refuse to identify elders and make circular arguments. They act like they are humble by identifying authors by their initials, but everyone in their assemblies knows who those people are, and they worship JND.
@@LoneWolfRanging Thanks for your response. I'm not 100% sure about this, but my impression was that if a non-believer took communion, he would receive punishment and the person in charge of the communion service would receive punishment, but not the whole congregation. The married couple I mentioned in my original post--the ones from the other side of the country--the ones who wouldn't let me see the "list of assemblies"--actually came to my town for the express purpose of being the youth group leaders in my chapel. They put that list of assemblies into use in my presence once. They had taken all us high school kids to visit Emmaus Bible College in Oak Park, Illinois, for a couple days in the hope of convincing us to attend there after graduation. We left Oak Park very early on Sunday morning. We were somewhere in Indiana (but I think we were still in Chicagoland) when we came to a chapel that was on the "list of assemblies." Their communion service was in process when we arrived. The doorkeeper didn't want to let us in, but my youth group leader convinced him to--after a lot of talking! We all took communion there. They served the wine (and it was real wine) in a single glass from which everybody drank. At my home chapel, the communion "wine" was actually grape juice, which was served in those tiny, disposable plastic cups, and the cups were passed around in one of those round metal trays with tiny holes for each plastic cup. The people at my home chapel were absolute teetotalers. In theory, you were allowed to drink alcohol in moderation, so long as you didn't get drunk, but in practice, they would've put John Wesley to shame. My chapel wasn't too secretive about who the elders were. Other than the minister, no elders' names were printed on the church materials, but I knew who they were. The minister would not allow anyone to address him as "Reverend." I don't really remember using any books other than the Bible and Hal Lindsey's _Late Great Planet Earth,_ so I can't comment about authors being identified only by their initials. Not once did I ever hear the name "John Nelson Darby" uttered by anyone associated with my chapel--nor did I ever hear the term "Plymouth Brethren." The only other church in town that my chapel would associate with was the one and only Christian and Missionary Alliance Church in my town. Seeing how my chapel was so adamant about Free Grace theology, I'm surprised they'd associate with the CMA, as they seem to be Arminians from what I understand. I also remember the CMA practicing open communion when I was there. Another feature of my chapel was that they were big on being "heresy hunters." They were always warning us about cults such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists and Seventh-day Adventists. Sure, we have all those denominations in my town--but they're all vanishingly small here. If they wanted to go after denominations with cult-like behavior, they'd have been better off teaching us about Roman Catholics and Oneness Pentecostals--those are the two big denominations in my town that demonstrate somewhat cult-like behavior--at least by the lights of what my chapel taught me.
@@LoneWolfRanging I just did another internet search for the Emmaus Bible School in Oak Park, Illinois, after not being able to find anything out about it in the past. This time I had success, in that I found out that it is one and the same organization as the Emmaus Bible College currently located in Dubuque, Iowa. brethrenpedia.org/index.php/Emmaus_Bible_College This college is affiliated with the Open Brethren, so I am leaning toward my chapel being an Open Brethren chapel once again. When I visited the school, it was not accredited at the time. I guess it got its accreditation in 1984 when it moved to Iowa. I knew to stay away as soon as I found out about the lack of accreditation. I was interested in academics, but when I visited, all they wanted to talk to me about was the basketball program. Yeah, right.
Well done. From a multi-generational lineage of what you describe as Exclusive, your description was accurate and fair. I would only add, that Exclusive is not entirely accurate, we hold that we need to be careful in vetting the individual (lay hands suddenly on no one) and that the individual needs to be comfortable with the doctrinal implications of the fellowship. The PB movement in one aspect is a hard core Protestant declaration against denominations (for you are one body), and as such participation in its fellowship is a repudiation of it.
I worship and serve at a church that might be described as a hybrid Baptist / Open Brethren. We simply call ourselves a Bible Church. We do 75% of things like the OPB would, but not enough that we would be listed in their groups; although we've fellowshipped with some of them. The Lord blessed us to find this assembly 39 years ago, and we've never considered leaving; the people are too precious, the teaching is excellent, the love is strong, and the fervor for making disciples is .. well, Baptistic :)
U R incredible. Thanks. But I think you have it wrong on most open brethren not allowing outside ministers to preach in their assemblies, if you mean "outside the assembly." If you mean "outside the movement," that is another question. But I was at a Gospel Hall in England when an apparent stranger asked to speak & was allowed to speak. It seems to me that what was called "Gospel Hall" England is called "Chapel" in USA, both open brethren in my experience, my experience with "Gospel Hall" in England is limited to around 1975-77 -- except that it appeared that the Gospel Halls in England had no officially designated elders (you just knew who they are), while in USA, elders were named. It may be that you need to distinguish "Gospel Hall" as used in England from use in USA. BTW, did you know that there is a library section in the University of Manchester (England) devoted to the (Plymouth) Brethren movement?
This is the first video I've come across that even acknowledges the existence of this group, which I find crazy because most Christians I meet know who Jim Elliott and George Muller are. Yet they would probably be shocked at some of the Brethren's practices.
It may be remarked that baptists have an allergy to the Lord's Supper. Church History question: When did the practice of not holding a communion service every week arise? When did some churches start having monthly or quarterly communion services? The brethren are IMHO the only group of Christians that know how to conduct the Lord's Supper, making it an important remembrance of the Lord Jesus, instead a quick perfunctory exercise which must no infringe on the preacher's sacred preaching time. Baptists seem to think that the monarchal bishop's preaching is the most important thing, so if there is a Wed Night "prayer" meeting, prayer is a minor part of it, & the major thing is another sermon from the preacher! Baptists seem to also have an allergy to prayer, there being often no opportunity for people (men & women separate) to meet & address personal issues in prayer.
Most of your critic is valid. However Baptism is a sacrament. That one the Brethren don't get right, it's a sacrament as it imparts grace as we know from the words of institution.
If I may answer the Church History question, the Lord's Supper was held regularly on the first day of the week from the earliest times, as learn from the letter of Pliny to Trajan, the letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians, from Barnabas, and Justin Martyr, as well as other sources. I entirely agree with your remarks as to the importance of the Lord's Supper - in my view it's the high point of the week and ought to - and I find this very testing - characterise the rest of the week.
Wild. I've been going to brethren churches since I was 16 after attending a Bible camp hosted by them. Never knew any of history because as you said they don't really identify as a denomination.
I am impressed with your knowledge of the Plymouth Brethren. May I ask the most important question that anyone can answer. Do you in all certainty know that you will be in Heaven when you die?
Wow, I enjoyed the history of the gospel hall.there is 4generations of my family in Iowa. I left due to the churches focusing on legalism instead of Jesus.
I heard that Plymouth Brethern don't recruit people outside of their group but I have seen a zoom meeting from Open Bretherns before. Plymouth bretherns are also called the Taylorites and they make attempts to be Tax Exempt through charity and their websites and etc.
I only seen 1 of their meetings via Zoom due to my friend sending me their address where every joined via zoom. After the sermon and went to break out. I did ask them what type of Christians they were as they are very different to what I am used to. 1 mentioned Open Brethern type. Where I live we have a lot of Plymouth Brethern handing out tracts and learned they moved their gospel hall after demolition.
Many years back I remember going along to a gospel hall with a friend who was a member of the assembly, myself as a visitor, but born again. Many Sundays at that time I would be sitting at the back and not take part in the communion, on the basis that I would have to be officially part of that assembly and subscribed to their way of doing things. They're nice people, but somewhat obscurd and old fashioned in their format as an assembly, I would never step into a brethren place of worship ever again.
@@robertrlkatz6890 maybe your question needs slightly rephrased to "relying" rather than "certainty", but to answer your question its relying on Jesus, trusting in him, depending on him 100% above my wretched state
I like in all certainty, relying on Jesus means you are hopeful that Jesus will do His part. 1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have ETERNAL LIFE," Knowing is with certainty.
Most of your observations are correct. However your title is fundamentally wrong. The Plymouth Brethren (a name which was only used by others to describe them) were never “Exclusive” or part of the Exclusives. They were the “Excluded”. There was a situation between JN Darby and Newton (who was located at Plymouth). Darby decided that because of Newtons ‘error’, Newton and all at Plymouth, were no longer to be accepted within the “Brethren” assemblies. When Darby found some in fellowship at Bristol, who had come from Plymouth, he protested and accused the Bristol Assembly of accepting those who were infected with the error of Newton, and he refused to have fellowship with them. George Muller and Henry Craik were in leadership at this time. This was the start of the Exclusive Brethren.
Hello, l grew up in the closed assembly. My Dad met a brother back in 1948 and found the meeting there in eureka California. He was so glad to find a group that remembered the Lord every Sunday. We loved Darby and other writers but we didn't make them the center. All these groups mentioned here are all different. Human beings are fallible but the Lord Jesus Christ is perfect
May I suggest a minor but all-important correction? It is Newton's error, not Newton's 'error' - Newton taught blamphemous heresy concerning the Person of the Lord Jesus. Darby was right to stand against it, and against those who wanted to be 'neutral' regarding it. There can be no neutrality when it comes to such things.
I feel like these are the 2 denominations that I feel most comfortable in. I wish there was a (micro)church that was a bit of a blend of the 2 in my area.
It's interesting that in Australia many of the Open Brethren are quite ecumenical - they have had strong connections with the Billy Graham movement, involvement in evangelical missionary agencies (they even worked with the Baptists and others to form the South Seas Evangelical Church in the Solomon Islands), and Dispensational eschatology is not emphasized like it used to. Many assemblies have also had pastors (including women pastors) for several decades. Since the 1970s it's been rare for women to be required to wear head-coverings.
Many (like baptists & brethren) seem to be ignorant that there are 3 types of churches in the NT: universal, city/regional, & house churches (start of Philemon). Our modern "local churches" are none of the above. Modern local churches are not the totality of Christians living in a city governed by a plurality of elders. As to any government of house churches, the NT says nothing about that; it does not specify a plurality of elders in a house church. There is no proof I know of from the Bible to refute the hypothesis that in the early church each house church had a single elder (his clēros, see 1 Peter 5).
Interesting distinction and question you raise. 1 Peter 5.5 and Acts 14.23 would seem to refute your hypothesis, plus all the places where elders are plural. That said it is a interesting idea that a plurality of elders within a town (or near each other) could share the leadership in home meetings. Perhaps Titus 1.5 could be taken than way, although the straightforward reading would seem to think there were a plurality of elders in the church because there was likely only one assembly in that town during early years.
His church published a letter calling them heretics. At that time the brethren were allowing women to speak in the church, to prophecy, and the brethren were publishing booklets calling everyone apostates. If you have ever been around the brethren you will realize how toxic they are. All their congregations split off on a regular basis. JND himself excommunicated everyone from the church until he was the last man left.
@@LoneWolfRanging I spent many years with the Brethren. You are right. They are toxic. However I live in Edmonton, Alberta. Baptists and Mennonites split off on a regular basis too.
@@roberteaston6413 yep. It’s sad, but groups that tend to separate from the outside world entirely tend to have the most toxic infighting. Especially when leadership comes from one family
@@roberteaston6413 I also spent many years with the Brethren in Edmonton. While I was part of an open assembly, even they acted in toxic ways regarding other assemblies. Our congregation split amicably because of size, but “othering” is so prevalent in the Brethren that visiting between congregations became strained. It was truly strange. The way Brethren try to obfuscate their denominational roots is absolutely toxic. “We’re just Christians! ...but we do have some hidden beliefs that set us apart and you’ll just have to wait until you’re older (or indoctrinated enough) before we explain them.” On the outside now, it feels kinda like a cult of to me.
If you are not a Christian you never was. If you thought you were a Christian then it was in name only. For God SO loved the World that He gave His only Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE. I can assure you that if you do get saved it will be the happiest day of your life. I was a broken man for 30 years, when Jesus came into my life I had a Peace that I cannot explain, now I know that when I die I will be in Heaven with Jesus for ALL eternity. I have had this Peace for over 43 years and I have never regretted the day that I made the choice to trust in what God says in His Word the Bible.
This guy keeps comparing churches amongst each other! God says "Do not compare each other amongst yourselves!" I find this very disobedient to Jesus, and trying to get a negative view of churches!
As someone with Scrupulosity I found a lot of churches teach different doctrines and they do conflict with each others churches. I no longer attend a church due to my scrupulosity and work related reasons. How I learned about this was from emailing a Christian friend the other day, she and her hubby gave up going to a church and started to attend a Gospel Hall.
What is the most important is that we know that when we die that we will be in Heaven. Do you know in all certainty that you will be in Heaven when you die?
i’ve been a part of a gospel hall my whole life and this is really the first time i’m learning about this. it’s a bummer and i can’t find any other youtube videos on these topics! i’m impressed with how accurately you explained closed assembly gospel halls
Thanks! I have a couple more videos coming out this year about Plymouth Brethren. Bible Chapels particularly, but I think you'll still find them interesting.
Dear friend, I literally stumbled upon your channel a few hours ago and have not been able to stop watching your videos. They are so well put together and easy to understand. Being part of an IFB church and community, I am very knowledgeable of its doctrines and traditions and your conclusions are 100% accurate and unbiased. Based on that, your information upon other denominations is validated in my eyes. Thank you so much for putting this all together! Your videos will be an invaluable resource for my wife and I. Keep it up!
Hello Nathaniel. I would like to ask you a question..
As an IFB do you believe God still heals today? I have been saved for a year now and joined a church without knowing about denominations but recently discovered the church I attend is part of the 5 fold ministry and is very charismatic. I am looking for a new church and do agree with IFBs views but struggle understand the topic of spiritual gifts today.
Kind regards
@@key36341 Hello Mrs. Harris, I certainly believe in God's ability to heal but to answer your question more directly -I would classify myself as a cessationist in regard to the apostolic sign gifts. The most simple reference I can point to is
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Now that we have the full revelation of God in the cannon of Scripture I believe that sign gifts are ceased. As you read through Acts, you will find each instance of sign gifts (such as healing/ tongues etc) served to verify the authenticity of the Gospel message to the Jews. (The Jews require a sign). Now that we have the word of God we no longer need miraculous verification.
However, there is much more to this than what I have given.
I recommend a book by Pastor James W. Knox called "Signs, Wonders, and Miracles". This is the most accurate information I can point you to in regard to mine and most other Baptist Christians' stance on gifts of the Spirit. I pray that the Lord will lead you into all truth.
God Bless!
@@key36341 I know this is late but as an IFB guy, I believe that God can still perform miraculous events and heals people. But the thing we see on Modern Churches(Pentecostals, Methodists, Charismatics, etc.) are just a fake counterfeit of God's miracles.
Christ is the ONLY WAY to heaven.
I almost never comment, but was really impressed by the research you did in this video and how clearly you outlined the differences/similarities. As someone who is a fifth-generation Open Brethren Christian, I thought that you packed a ton of information into this video. Of course, the nuances -- which can't really be captured in an 8 min video -- are always interesting. For example, many Brethren don't realize the role women preachers played early in the movement's history (and there is a growing number of Brethren assemblies that are egalitarian); the movement's Lord's Supper practice has been partly shaped by Quaker practices (as there were Quakers among its early adherents); and so much more. I think this video really knocked it out of the park, though! Definitely subscribing.
Thanks Jeff! I appreciate your inputs!
Do you think the egalitarian is in like the Canadian gospel halls?
Plymouth is in England, not Ireland. Apart from that, this is excellent. Thank you.
started with Darby in Dublin but called Plymouth due to a concentration of people there
Close enough...
I don't know why they are called Plymouth Brethern and what it has to do with Plymouth. They are also referred to as the Taylorites.
There could be a Plymouth in Ireland too.
@@mrunixman1579 because that's where they were concentrated at the beginning.
Plymouth is in England , not Ireland
big fan of this channel and have been recommending it to people. so informative and honest. keep doing what you're doing.
Thanks! Let me know if there's a denomination you want me to make a video on.
I grew up in an "assembly" after we left the pentacostal church. This is an amazing summary! Thank you! I am familiar with all of the historical guys you mentioned. I come from the open side, but I loved reading about Watchman Nee. In any case, thanks for this summary.
I just recently came across your videos and I want to let you know you have done an AMAZING AWESOME job at condensing down complicated confusing topics into short segments in a way that is presented in such an INCREDIBLY neutral way that it does not disparage either side.
I know the views are not super high yet, but I want to let you know, you’re doing an EXCELLENT job and I want to encourage you to keep going.
Discussing and explaining differences between views is very difficult without showing partiality, but, man you are doing an absolutely AMAZING job at presenting it as *neutrally* as HUMANLY POSSIBLE and that deserves A LOT of respect.😊
Thanks Andrew, I am glad you came across my channel! I've learned a lot researching these topics too and I am glad other people also enjoy them!
You are putting fourth some good historical information as it relates to various church teaching and views.
beneficial comparison and found the presentation helpful; short, concise and to the point.
excellent information, thank you.
Thank you.I just want some clarification.When you use the word ecumenical" do you mean interdenominational because today when one uses the word ecumenical they usually refer to membership in the World Council of Churches and adhering to its practice.
...and Watchman Nee lives on to be one of the most influential and circumspect theologians who is still 'apparently' promoted in IFB circles.
Thank you for this video! My husband's family are members of Gospel Hall and its hard to find information on what it all means.
Masterfully done, my dear man.
Similar characteristics to 'open' and 'closed' christian brethren in zambia. open christian brethren aka chapels being more common in the copperbelt while the closed christian brethren aka gospel halls more common in lusaka...
I spotted a Plymouth Brethren Christian Church in a new housing estate in my city. I didn't know it was a renaming of The Exclusive Brethren lead by Hales. I have a relative who is a member of a Brethren assembly which he describes as 'Non-Taylor Exclusive' Brethren. This is a reference to a former 'Elect Vessel' Mr Taylor who once got very drunk at a meeting in Scotland and began to swear. That caused some members to split.
I remember, some years ago, reading some of a transcript of that 'meeting' in Aberdeen that you mentioned - I couldn't finish reading the document. It made me feel almost physically nauseated, it was so horrifying. It saddens me to think that there are so many believers caught up in the system which was perpetuated by J Taylor Jnr and carried on the form of the PBCC, and I'm always thankful that my parents and grandparents were guided by the Lord at the division in 1970. I was born in 1989, long after the events of the 1960s, and if I'd been born into the system I would never have known the truth about the division - there but for the grace of God I might have gone.
W. E. Vine (complete expository dictionary of the Bible) was an assembly man also.
I've been part of both Open and Closed brethren. This video is accurate, and I think you have correctly pointed out some of the most key differences.
is there not also structured services? in my, albeit limited, experience in brethren churches then communion services are open and unstructured but there are also structured communion services
@@andrewtait1317 Speaking from my position as a brother in a 'closed' fellowship, all communion services are unstructured.
This is great Joshua! As someone going into United Methodist seminary, I love your content!
Thanks! Glad to have you as a viewer.
There were many schisms and reunions along the way to the now-common broad "open"/"closed" distinctions.
I grew up in the Gospel Hall. Very well done, young man.
kjv gospel hall
Having grown up in a Plymouth Brethren church, I can say both that I learned something from this video and that I can offer some words of clarification and correction to the video.
It is stated in the video that the Exclusive Brethren are shying away from the name "Plymouth Brethren" to distance themselves from the Raven-Taylor-Hales Brethren and the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. In my experience, Plymouth Brethren have never called themselves Plymouth Brethren. They insist on calling themselves nothing other than Christians. If you were to tell rank and file PB's that they are PB's, I think they'd be surprised, never having heard the term before. That was my reaction when I was in high school and somebody from another church told me I belonged to the PB movement.
I think the church I grew up in was an Open Assembly of the Open Brethren--primarily because our church was called a "chapel." All those in leadership positions were quite mysterious and tight-lipped about the origins of our church, wanting us only to look to the Bible and nothing else. The church's attitude verged on bibliolatry. There was a married couple who moved to our town from the other side of the USA who sometimes let things slip that we weren't supposed to know about. One time they mentioned "the list of the assemblies" which told where you could attend chapel services if you were out of town on a Sunday. I asked if I could see this list, and I was denied. It was something I wasn't supposed to know about.
My chapel practised closed communion. The communion service was early on Sunday morning, before the public worship service which was open to all. The communion service was very secretive. Its existence wasn't published in any of the chapel's printed materials, and it was never mentioned from the pulpit. It was all very hush-hush.
When I was older, I learned about the distinction between Calvinists and Arminians. I didn't know what my chapel was, but I did know it wasn't either of those. I only recently learned that what it teaches is called Free Grace theology. I dunno how integral this is to the PB movement, or if it more a distinctive only of my local chapel.
To sum it up, I would say that the main distinctives of the chapel I grew up in are Free Grace theology, extreme biblicism, and devotion to J. N. Darby's eschatology as filtered through Hal Lindsey.
Thanks for sharing! This is so valuable.
@@eg8580 You're welcome! If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them if I can.
I think you would be considered exclusive by the Taylor hales faction (it’s based off of “lords table” and who they recognize as “gathered in his name).
Many exclusives believe that if you give communion to a non believer, not only will the nonbeliever receive punishment, but the congregation as well.
Open assemblies aren’t as paranoid about their fellow assemblies or who their elders are.
Exclusives tend to refuse to identify elders and make circular arguments.
They act like they are humble by identifying authors by their initials, but everyone in their assemblies knows who those people are, and they worship JND.
@@LoneWolfRanging Thanks for your response.
I'm not 100% sure about this, but my impression was that if a non-believer took communion, he would receive punishment and the person in charge of the communion service would receive punishment, but not the whole congregation.
The married couple I mentioned in my original post--the ones from the other side of the country--the ones who wouldn't let me see the "list of assemblies"--actually came to my town for the express purpose of being the youth group leaders in my chapel. They put that list of assemblies into use in my presence once. They had taken all us high school kids to visit Emmaus Bible College in Oak Park, Illinois, for a couple days in the hope of convincing us to attend there after graduation. We left Oak Park very early on Sunday morning. We were somewhere in Indiana (but I think we were still in Chicagoland) when we came to a chapel that was on the "list of assemblies." Their communion service was in process when we arrived. The doorkeeper didn't want to let us in, but my youth group leader convinced him to--after a lot of talking! We all took communion there. They served the wine (and it was real wine) in a single glass from which everybody drank. At my home chapel, the communion "wine" was actually grape juice, which was served in those tiny, disposable plastic cups, and the cups were passed around in one of those round metal trays with tiny holes for each plastic cup. The people at my home chapel were absolute teetotalers. In theory, you were allowed to drink alcohol in moderation, so long as you didn't get drunk, but in practice, they would've put John Wesley to shame.
My chapel wasn't too secretive about who the elders were. Other than the minister, no elders' names were printed on the church materials, but I knew who they were. The minister would not allow anyone to address him as "Reverend."
I don't really remember using any books other than the Bible and Hal Lindsey's _Late Great Planet Earth,_ so I can't comment about authors being identified only by their initials.
Not once did I ever hear the name "John Nelson Darby" uttered by anyone associated with my chapel--nor did I ever hear the term "Plymouth Brethren."
The only other church in town that my chapel would associate with was the one and only Christian and Missionary Alliance Church in my town. Seeing how my chapel was so adamant about Free Grace theology, I'm surprised they'd associate with the CMA, as they seem to be Arminians from what I understand. I also remember the CMA practicing open communion when I was there.
Another feature of my chapel was that they were big on being "heresy hunters." They were always warning us about cults such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists and Seventh-day Adventists. Sure, we have all those denominations in my town--but they're all vanishingly small here. If they wanted to go after denominations with cult-like behavior, they'd have been better off teaching us about Roman Catholics and Oneness Pentecostals--those are the two big denominations in my town that demonstrate somewhat cult-like behavior--at least by the lights of what my chapel taught me.
@@LoneWolfRanging I just did another internet search for the Emmaus Bible School in Oak Park, Illinois, after not being able to find anything out about it in the past. This time I had success, in that I found out that it is one and the same organization as the Emmaus Bible College currently located in Dubuque, Iowa.
brethrenpedia.org/index.php/Emmaus_Bible_College
This college is affiliated with the Open Brethren, so I am leaning toward my chapel being an Open Brethren chapel once again.
When I visited the school, it was not accredited at the time. I guess it got its accreditation in 1984 when it moved to Iowa. I knew to stay away as soon as I found out about the lack of accreditation. I was interested in academics, but when I visited, all they wanted to talk to me about was the basketball program. Yeah, right.
Very objective and mostly accurate! Well done!
Well done. From a multi-generational lineage of what you describe as Exclusive, your description was accurate and fair. I would only add, that Exclusive is not entirely accurate, we hold that we need to be careful in vetting the individual (lay hands suddenly on no one) and that the individual needs to be comfortable with the doctrinal implications of the fellowship. The PB movement in one aspect is a hard core Protestant declaration against denominations (for you are one body), and as such participation in its fellowship is a repudiation of it.
Excellent comment - I often make reference 1 Timothy 5:22 when explaining why we don't have an 'open table'.
I worship and serve at a church that might be described as a hybrid Baptist / Open Brethren. We simply call ourselves a Bible Church. We do 75% of things like the OPB would, but not enough that we would be listed in their groups; although we've fellowshipped with some of them. The Lord blessed us to find this assembly 39 years ago, and we've never considered leaving; the people are too precious, the teaching is excellent, the love is strong, and the fervor for making disciples is .. well, Baptistic :)
Any churches like this in Canada? Very disheartening for me to see the state of things ( been saved 3 years)
I have known people from this church so it is really interesting
I grew up in an open brethren assembly that had been an exclusive assembly (Grant) and now fellowship with an exclusive assembly. 😁
U R incredible. Thanks. But I think you have it wrong on most open brethren not allowing outside ministers to preach in their assemblies, if you mean "outside the assembly." If you mean "outside the movement," that is another question. But I was at a Gospel Hall in England when an apparent stranger asked to speak & was allowed to speak. It seems to me that what was called "Gospel Hall" England is called "Chapel" in USA, both open brethren in my experience, my experience with "Gospel Hall" in England is limited to around 1975-77 -- except that it appeared that the Gospel Halls in England had no officially designated elders (you just knew who they are), while in USA, elders were named. It may be that you need to distinguish "Gospel Hall" as used in England from use in USA. BTW, did you know that there is a library section in the University of Manchester (England) devoted to the (Plymouth) Brethren movement?
This is the first video I've come across that even acknowledges the existence of this group, which I find crazy because most Christians I meet know who Jim Elliott and George Muller are. Yet they would probably be shocked at some of the Brethren's practices.
It may be remarked that baptists have an allergy to the Lord's Supper. Church History question: When did the practice of not holding a communion service every week arise? When did some churches start having monthly or quarterly communion services? The brethren are IMHO the only group of Christians that know how to conduct the Lord's Supper, making it an important remembrance of the Lord Jesus, instead a quick perfunctory exercise which must no infringe on the preacher's sacred preaching time. Baptists seem to think that the monarchal bishop's preaching is the most important thing, so if there is a Wed Night "prayer" meeting, prayer is a minor part of it, & the major thing is another sermon from the preacher! Baptists seem to also have an allergy to prayer, there being often no opportunity for people (men & women separate) to meet & address personal issues in prayer.
Most of your critic is valid. However Baptism is a sacrament. That one the Brethren don't get right, it's a sacrament as it imparts grace as we know from the words of institution.
If I may answer the Church History question, the Lord's Supper was held regularly on the first day of the week from the earliest times, as learn from the letter of Pliny to Trajan, the letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians, from Barnabas, and Justin Martyr, as well as other sources. I entirely agree with your remarks as to the importance of the Lord's Supper - in my view it's the high point of the week and ought to - and I find this very testing - characterise the rest of the week.
I like your video i am in the ministry of brother watchman nee and brother witness lee i would like see a video of there ministry thank you
Wild. I've been going to brethren churches since I was 16 after attending a Bible camp hosted by them. Never knew any of history because as you said they don't really identify as a denomination.
So, are any of these positions held by the Open Brethren more Biblical?
I am impressed with your knowledge of the Plymouth Brethren. May I ask the most important question that anyone can answer. Do you in all certainty know that you will be in Heaven when you die?
would like to see more videos on Darby/ dispensationalism
Wow, I enjoyed the history of the gospel hall.there is 4generations of my family in Iowa. I left due to the churches focusing on legalism instead of Jesus.
I heard that Plymouth Brethern don't recruit people outside of their group but I have seen a zoom meeting from Open Bretherns before. Plymouth bretherns are also called the Taylorites and they make attempts to be Tax Exempt through charity and their websites and etc.
(Keyboard shuffles in ending)
I think the Open Brethren have it the best
I only seen 1 of their meetings via Zoom due to my friend sending me their address where every joined via zoom. After the sermon and went to break out. I did ask them what type of Christians they were as they are very different to what I am used to. 1 mentioned Open Brethern type. Where I live we have a lot of Plymouth Brethern handing out tracts and learned they moved their gospel hall after demolition.
Many years back I remember going along to a gospel hall with a friend who was a member of the assembly, myself as a visitor, but born again.
Many Sundays at that time I would be sitting at the back and not take part in the communion, on the basis that I would have to be officially part of that assembly and subscribed to their way of doing things.
They're nice people, but somewhat obscurd and old fashioned in their format as an assembly, I would never step into a brethren place of worship ever again.
Interesting- why not?
May I ask you an important question? Can you in all certainty say that you know that you will be in Heaven when you die?
@@robertrlkatz6890 maybe your question needs slightly rephrased to "relying" rather than "certainty", but to answer your question its relying on Jesus, trusting in him, depending on him 100% above my wretched state
I like in all certainty, relying on Jesus means you are hopeful that Jesus will do His part. 1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have ETERNAL LIFE," Knowing is with certainty.
Split among churches sometimes got ridiculous. What colour shall we paint our main door?
-Blue.
-I suggest white!
The split has become.
Plymouth is in Devon.
Saved by grace through faith alone. From the beginning to the end.
Excellent. Happy Reformation Day
Most of your observations are correct. However your title is fundamentally wrong. The Plymouth Brethren (a name which was only used by others to describe them) were never “Exclusive” or part of the Exclusives. They were the “Excluded”. There was a situation between JN Darby and Newton (who was located at Plymouth). Darby decided that because of Newtons ‘error’, Newton and all at Plymouth, were no longer to be accepted within the “Brethren” assemblies. When Darby found some in fellowship at Bristol, who had come from Plymouth, he protested and accused the Bristol Assembly of accepting those who were infected with the error of Newton, and he refused to have fellowship with them. George Muller and Henry Craik were in leadership at this time. This was the start of the Exclusive Brethren.
Hello, l grew up in the closed assembly. My Dad met a brother back in 1948 and found the meeting there in eureka California. He was so glad to find a group that remembered the Lord every Sunday. We loved Darby and other writers but we didn't make them the center. All these groups mentioned here are all different. Human beings are fallible but the Lord Jesus Christ is perfect
May I ask you one of the most important questions? Do you in all certainty know that you will be in Heaven when you die?
May I suggest a minor but all-important correction? It is Newton's error, not Newton's 'error' - Newton taught blamphemous heresy concerning the Person of the Lord Jesus. Darby was right to stand against it, and against those who wanted to be 'neutral' regarding it. There can be no neutrality when it comes to such things.
I feel like these are the 2 denominations that I feel most comfortable in. I wish there was a (micro)church that was a bit of a blend of the 2 in my area.
May I ask you a question? Do you in all certainty know that you will be in Heaven when you die?
It's interesting that in Australia many of the Open Brethren are quite ecumenical - they have had strong connections with the Billy Graham movement, involvement in evangelical missionary agencies (they even worked with the Baptists and others to form the South Seas Evangelical Church in the Solomon Islands), and Dispensational eschatology is not emphasized like it used to. Many assemblies have also had pastors (including women pastors) for several decades. Since the 1970s it's been rare for women to be required to wear head-coverings.
Many (like baptists & brethren) seem to be ignorant that there are 3 types of churches in the NT: universal, city/regional, & house churches (start of Philemon). Our modern "local churches" are none of the above. Modern local churches are not the totality of Christians living in a city governed by a plurality of elders. As to any government of house churches, the NT says nothing about that; it does not specify a plurality of elders in a house church. There is no proof I know of from the Bible to refute the hypothesis that in the early church each house church had a single elder (his clēros, see 1 Peter 5).
Interesting distinction and question you raise. 1 Peter 5.5 and Acts 14.23 would seem to refute your hypothesis, plus all the places where elders are plural. That said it is a interesting idea that a plurality of elders within a town (or near each other) could share the leadership in home meetings. Perhaps Titus 1.5 could be taken than way, although the straightforward reading would seem to think there were a plurality of elders in the church because there was likely only one assembly in that town during early years.
Plymouth ENGLAND not IRELAND
Plymouth England …not Plymouth Ireland
Plymouth is not in Ireland.
Breterns are alot more learned in the Person of Christ
Non-denominational churches, whatever your background, you're welcome here.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon did not care for the Brethren.
I think he mentioned something about them taking other sheep in one of his sermons. This was of course in the 1800s.
His church published a letter calling them heretics.
At that time the brethren were allowing women to speak in the church, to prophecy, and the brethren were publishing booklets calling everyone apostates.
If you have ever been around the brethren you will realize how toxic they are. All their congregations split off on a regular basis. JND himself excommunicated everyone from the church until he was the last man left.
@@LoneWolfRanging I spent many years with the Brethren. You are right. They are toxic. However I live in Edmonton, Alberta. Baptists and Mennonites split off on a regular basis too.
@@roberteaston6413 yep. It’s sad, but groups that tend to separate from the outside world entirely tend to have the most toxic infighting. Especially when leadership comes from one family
@@roberteaston6413 I also spent many years with the Brethren in Edmonton. While I was part of an open assembly, even they acted in toxic ways regarding other assemblies. Our congregation split amicably because of size, but “othering” is so prevalent in the Brethren that visiting between congregations became strained. It was truly strange.
The way Brethren try to obfuscate their denominational roots is absolutely toxic. “We’re just Christians! ...but we do have some hidden beliefs that set us apart and you’ll just have to wait until you’re older (or indoctrinated enough) before we explain them.” On the outside now, it feels kinda like a cult of to me.
ex Christian here & all denominations tell the same lies
If you are not a Christian you never was. If you thought you were a Christian then it was in name only.
For God SO loved the World that He gave His only Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE. I can assure you that if you do get saved it will be the happiest day of your life. I was a broken man for 30 years, when Jesus came into my life I had a Peace that I cannot explain, now I know that when I die I will be in Heaven with Jesus for ALL eternity. I have had this Peace for over 43 years and I have never regretted the day that I made the choice to trust in what God says in His Word the Bible.
This guy keeps comparing churches amongst each other! God says "Do not compare each other amongst yourselves!" I find this very disobedient to Jesus, and trying to get a negative view of churches!
As someone with Scrupulosity I found a lot of churches teach different doctrines and they do conflict with each others churches. I no longer attend a church due to my scrupulosity and work related reasons. How I learned about this was from emailing a Christian friend the other day, she and her hubby gave up going to a church and started to attend a Gospel Hall.
What is the most important is that we know that when we die that we will be in Heaven. Do you know in all certainty that you will be in Heaven when you die?
The most important question that a person can answer is do you know that you will go to Heaven when you die? Do you know that you will be in Heaven?
A cult in short.
In short, more explanations of religious idiocy and how the group themselves into little slave camps.
You really should research your topic. You really don't know the history very well