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The Creation Engine Did Nothing Wrong | It's Bethesda! | Morrowind to Fallout 76
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 พ.ย. 2018
- "The same Old Broken Engine" is a SCAPEGOAT people are using (perhaps unwittingly) to take the blame off Bethesda's developers themselves, the real culprits in the buggy, glitchy, ugly, messes that have been resulting from otherwise enjoyable Bethesda sandboxes for years. I've enjoyed every game from Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 in different ways (Mostly due to modding). But, Bethesda problems arn't present in other games that use very similar tools. Bethesda problems are Bethesda problems. Telling them to get a new engine isn't going to fix Bethesda Problems. I'll also explain why despite whatever PR says on the outside, internally I suspect they have NO PRIDE AS DEVELOPERS.
NetImmerse Did Nothing Wrong.
NetImmerse 2.0 aka Gamebryo Did Nothing Wrong.
NetImmerse 3.0 aka Gamebryo 2.0 aka The Creation Engine Did nothing Wrong.
they changed the engine for 16x more details and new lights. now the game crashes 16x as often and the light comes from everywhere
This comment is on point! Specially about the lighting haha. That shit is embarrassing, rd2 lighting makes f76 look like a nintendo game haha
More like 16x Less details lol, large sections of the map are blurred and smeared and texterless.
@@wearevenom4121 thats because you have bad internet my g
@@doyouwantafirecookie7502 Internet connection has nothing to do with how slowly this shit updates the LOD textures... I get the same shit in Fallout 4 when I run too fast. The ugly low resolution textures that are loaded on distance don't disappear fast enough and load in the proper close textures because... fucking reasons. I tweaked the game's INI file to near perfection to optimize performance. I run the game off an SSD and I do have a $1500 PC, so it can't be my fault.
Godrays from the earth. That's what we needed, Todd. Thanks.
Bethesda misusing their engine clearly proves why Brotherhood of Steel must safeguard all technologies from mankind.
Ad Victoriam brother! light them up.
Enclave will assist with wiping Bethesda out.
Jay K. The bears are still hunting
The Legion will assist you, death to the profligate!!!
Jay K.
I got word that another game engine needs your help, here I will mark it on your map!
To put it simply, a bad carpenter blames his tools.
Yeah, I was thinking of a toolbox and a tradesmen with regards to the Bethesda engine situation.
@@kiwismurf4536 You gotta wonder though when modders can pull it off in a couple of days/weeks, unpaid, with small teams and actually make Fallout and ElderScrolls games look amazing. What the hell happened in 76?
Build a house with a fucking tuna sandwich and then say how you can't blame your tools. Now I'm not giving Bethesda a pass, because I've been calling Bethesda "lazy" and "shit coders" for a long time now so make sure you don't mistake my comment with giving them a pass.
@@stevenkent5351 I know this isn't quite the same thing but, I happen to be an amateur photographer. One of the good points of advice people give you is, that spending $400 or more dollars on a camera does not make you a good photographer. In fact you maybe surprised by how much people accomplish with just the camera on their phone. It is better to become more skilled to the point that your tools are holding you back, then to get powerful tools that you don't even know how to use. A better game engine isn't going to make Bethesda competent.
To be fair, they aren't blaming their tools. It's other people.
what do we learn today kids NEVER PRE-ORDER ANY GAME
Leandro Jacobik best comment this week! 🤓😎
People should have learned that lesson years ago.
Too bad, i've already preordered Battlefleet Gothic II.
Leandro Jacobik Damn. Guess I’ll have to cancel my Fallout 82 preorder.
I pre order red dead 2 lucky for me I loved it. But yeah kids no pre order. Take it from me who took a risk.
Larian used the same engine and made a functional ladder. Bethesda cannot for the life of them make one for the past 2 decades.
Indeed, Larian did. Here's a video of a ladder in Divinity 2, a game that uses GameBryo: th-cam.com/video/ysxrDtWQfF4/w-d-xo.html
@@vahloksekun646 Man, it's the little things that really show the problems. We've had so many static and "door" ladders in TES and Fallout games over the years instead of real ones...
Oh god the lack of ladders or any kind of scaling of obstacles that we've just come to accept. Why do I have the distinct feeling they haven't even _tried_ in the last 2 decades?
And I might be way off here but it doesn't seem like it should be that complicated: The character model moves upwards, while playing an animation cycle. Plus a transition in and out.
I honestly find it charming, imagine, the year 2019 might be the year bethesda announces elder scrolls 6...with ladders as the big feature reveal in the trailer!
You know to be fair, Bethesda isn't even bad when they actually put effort into developing their games. Anyone who has played the PC Oblivion and PS3 Oblivion GotY knows that Bethesda can fix their games if they wanted to. the difference between those two versions are like night and day because they were forced by Sony to released it FIXED. Problem nowadays is that gamers just put up with broken games that gets bug fixes down the line. It's sickening, this does not even pass during the PS1 and PS2 eras.
fallout 76 makes fallout 4 look good
@Blah Blah ...And that doesn't bode well for Bethesda's future. Will Elder Scrolls 6 make Redguard look good?
295Phoenix it might make skyrim look good
But fallout 4 was good? i played the living hell out of it
@@nasbuscus: No it wasn't.
Endless raidant quests and dialogue options that have next to zero consequence does not make for a good game.
@@sevenproxies4255 agreed i was bored out of my mind just running around doing kill n fetch quests
The Creation Engine doesn’t need a top to bottom rework.
Bethesda needs a top to bottom rework.
People who think releasing a technical mess like Fallout 76 is okay, will always release shit, no matter what tools they have on hand.
Both do. Actually, I'd throw the engine in the trash, and go with UE4.
We need both. Bethesda Game Studios first, and then the engine, with a lot of help from the insane talent over at id Software.
And no on the Unreal Engine 4 idea. Would rather see CryEngine V than Unreal, as it's far better suited for both open world and RPG gameplay. _Kingdom Come: Deliverance_ is proof of how well it can be utilized in that regard, and that was on CryEngine 3, and V is much bettwr and has seen lots of significant updates and upgrades since its own release.
Skyrim was a good game made in creation engine. Therefore creation engine can make good games. Probably someone in corporate is why 76 turned out not good.
Dk Soulstice your brain needs top and bottom rework too
@Eginhardt Schmitz "Not ideal," maybe, but not "terrible." There are plenty of games that use it for open worlds and make it work well. _Kingdom Come: Deliverance_ is a perfect, and recent, example
The fact that modders can take Bethesda games and improve them both visually and mechanically, manipulating the same Engine with its limitations, shows a little bit of where the problem really lies.
BGS toddy an hiney and their merry band of laziness are WHAT IS WRONG!
@@fr33kSh0w2012 why put in effort if your games sell regardless? As long as idiots keep buying Bethesda games, nothing will change
@@GeraltofRivia22 Exactly.
It's unfortunate, when modding community can reverse engineer a bit, just a little bit to improve performance, even removed the mod limit in older gamebryo games for example Fallout New Vegas, with FNV mod limit fix you can have more than 135 mod activate at the same time without going haywire, it's crazy, I mean that just one of the mod, there are many other mod that fix this fix that enhance this enhance that..
@@White_Tiger93 Why don't bethesda HIRE the entire Modding Community and Fire all the other employees!
Bookmarking this video to spam people with :)
Choke me daddy
Keep buying broken games and using this video to justify it. I won't defend Bethesda anymore with their lazy cash grabs.
Gopher!!!
Gopher knows what's up
@@Zeriel00 No thanks.
you know, the whole "good enough" monolog really puts "it just works" into an entirely different light, It JUST works, barely.
Not only the "eh, good enough I guess" mentality but also the "the modders will fix it for us anyway" is what I suspect is at play. That and the general incompetence forming a unholy triad.
@MTRredux I suppose if you consider the console audience, certainly, but while it's hard to get absolute statistics, it can be assumed they are typically not as passionate a fans as those that play on PC and mod the games, which saved Bethesda from potential bankruptcy around the time of Morrowind's release. This modding community has been spearheading, supporting and freely advertised Bethesda games, whose mods are typically so ambitious it keeps Bethesda in the positive news and kept sales much stronger for all their titles without any continued effort on the part of BGS. Rather than show more gratitude, integrating crucial fixes and improvements or hiring these modders on a more permanent basis they've been doing the bare-minimum and using their Q&A resources primarily to get the games to run just acceptably enough, as Zaric mentioned in the video. Bethesda's overreliance on the modding community was very understandable around the time of Morrowind and even Oblivion but when they started ripping out the core of the game mechanics in Skyrim and Fallout 4 and only adding features and questlines that were first made by modders (perhaps even using the same code) and selling them as their own works, while at the same time the same old Morrowind issues still exist in identical form is inexcusable. It seems like Zenimax wants to build some kind of platform or method where they merely provide a procedurally generated landmass, have modders create something for free, then take that work and sell it as DLC (or 'paid mods').
I don't know whether or not Bethesda uses "modders will fix it" as an excuse to release broken games, but it's definitely contributed to one of their most loyal core audiences, the modding community, cutting them some undeserved slack. Because when, say, I play Skyrim for 100 hours without a single hiccup because of the UP, I don't think it's because of the UP, since I just perceive the game working fine.
@MTRredux Yeah, but no, I can say that a majority of people use at least a couple mods when playing their games. Being that I get around, a lot, I see numerous people, and have had many conversations. If we are talking about consoles than yes most console players don't use mods, at least until the release of versions of the games that supported mods. Now even with that, Playstation users use less mods than Xbox users, due to Sony's policy. And Xbox users use less mods than PC users, due to the limitations of consoles. To say that Bethesda games are long-lived is a statement quite clearly made because of all the support that their games have for mods. I always say "mods make a good game, great, and a bad game playable." This has held true for every game I've ever played. Skyrim and Fallout 4 are both amazing masterpieces if you use the right mods, though not complete masterpieces since they'll still have a few bugs even with the community patch.
Now I will say that I haven't experienced as many game breaking bugs, or as many disturbing bugs as most other people, even on a vanilla playthrough at release. That however is just my experience, I do see some bugs, mostly some of the most common ones (see Skyrim's space program via giants as an example, though that was patched out, and then put back in due to people wanting it, I can see why), but a couple most people don't see. Though again, most haven't been game breaking or disturbing for me. I do understand both sides. I personally love Bethesda's games, cause for the most part there isn't anything like the Bethesda experience they provide, and I think that's good. However they're showing numerous signs of simply not caring enough to fix all the issues, and don't spend enough time bug-fixing and optimizing. If they managed to put more effort in, then we wouldn't be here, and this probably wouldn't of needed discussion.
@@darkrite9000 No you can't because statistically you are wrong. Compare the sales of the PC version to the unique downloads of mods. Most people, well over 50%, on ANY platform, are not using mods in any form. Get over it (and I say this because you seem rather impassioned about believing otherwise).
I personally dont care that my esp list (if not the actual mod list) is ludicrously long while most others wouldn't even know what tesmodmanager/MO/BOSS/LOOT is, and I am not sure why I should.
Also, if you believe the games would be less technically limited if mods went away, I have a bridge from Long Island to Connecticut I would like to sell you.
@@xBINARYGODx Well it's hard to tell the exact numbers, on one hand you base yours off of sales and mod downloads, which normally I'd say is a good way of handling it, though a few things to consider. Firstly, sales, even PC sales, don't translate to an even 1 to 1, copy to user ratio. This is twice as likely on consoles (cause I've personally purchased Skyrim at least 3 times on console, one for the xbox 360, and two for the xbox one, cause the initial legendary edition and then the special edition that allowed mods, as for PC I currently don't own Skyrim on steam, and will probably get it for steam, as well as oblivion, when the Skyblivion mod is finished), I'm aware that most people only ever purchase one copy for any given platform, and the PC is probably the one that least calls for purchasing new copies (as PC had mods to begin with). Even still we get people who get the game cause it's on sale and so buy another copy for a friend, etc. Also when I say that most play with mods, I am referring to mostly players who stick around. As an example, my brother gets a game, beats it in a week, and then returns it, and several of his friends do the same thing. So basing things off of sales and mod downloads isn't gonna give you an accurate number. Though neither does basing it entirely off of what feedback and interaction one has with the community.
When I say mods make a good game great, and a bad game playable, it's not to say that without mods games would get better, or that they'd never get better, as that's ridiculous. I mean that a good game, can almost always be improved, and a bad game definitely can be. I speak from experience, not just as a gamer, or a modder (though I mostly only mod my own game, never really uploading very much to mod sites, I think that should also be considered), but a game designer. I don't make games with the thought that mods are gonna make this better, I am more focused on making sure these damn sprites match up pixel perfect, or that nothing decides to fall through the floor when hit with a large amount of force. Only once I am basically done with the game do I think about what could be made better (and then either get to making it better if I have the time to do so, or kicking myself for not having said time), perhaps then I think about what mods could be possible to make this game better.
However regardless of all this, the fact remains that mods can and for the most part do, make a game better, and that many if not most people use mods for that reason. The problem with using statistics is that unless you account for all factors, you aren't getting an accurate result (I'd say that we could look at murder statistics or something like that but I'd rather avoid that). So look at sales, mod downloads, people who played the game vanilla (and still play vanilla), people who download mods (and play with said mods, cause you can download a mod and not use it, though I'd wonder why you would have downloaded the mod to begin with), people who mod their own game without downloading very many, if any other mods, and people who are still playing said game (or at least people who played the game for about a year). These are all the statistics (though there could be more, but I digress) that you'd need to know to actually get the total percentage of players who play the game with mods. This is extremely difficult to do because not all these numbers are listed somewhere. You would need to talk to the community and people who left the community, or never played the game that much and so never could've been considered a real part of the community. Do you see where I'm going with this. It's borderline impossible to base things off the statistics you listed. I believe it's better to just base it off of the community itself, and as I've said most of the people in the community of these games, use mods (especially for PC). Could people be lying, sure, but I would rather believe that most are telling the truth. I know lots of people who use tons of mods, and even some who haven't used any. So I believe that is the best way to determine it, though again if you could actually give me those accurate statistics and I could find them out too, and if it does in fact point to most players who spent more than a few months on the game not using any mods even now, then I will keep that in mind, and say you're right. Until then however, I will base my statements off of what I've come to know by experience, and interactions with others. Ultimately it's borderline impossible to know for sure, I just believe that most people use mods cause that's what I've gathered. Thank you for the conversation and have a nice night.
Do you guys ever wonder if Zaric just sits there in his underwear while wearing the suit jacket and shirt?
This needs more likes.
What suit? I see no suit or any kind.
LOL!
I did work-experience at a local News station. The main anchor didn't even have a proper suit, it was just one piece (jacket, tie, dress-shirt) all stitched together to create the illusion of a suit, and put on like a T-shirt. Beneath the desk he wore short shorts and flip flops. XD
Zaric is just a living suit. There's nothing below
Unfortunately, things will probably keep getting worse in terms of quality simply because of current business model of the gaming industry. Bethesda is too big for its own good now.
Nah starfield will be good.
@@dianuevo8925lol as if XD, it will be the same buggy shit as always
@@dianuevo8925 how do you know? For all we know it could be more casual than skyrim and end up like fallout.
Can't climb ladders in Bethesda games "@@dianuevo8925 Nah starfield will be good." What? How in the hell will they be able to make a space game when they removed flying from Oblivion due to performance issues, and instancing?
@@SamahLama hmm, what's casual and what's not is subjective.
Now if you mean more mainstream. Rpgs are mainstream now. And since it is a brand new ip separate from anything else, there is no standard nor predecessor it has to live up to.
In other words it coild be or not a rpg, it could be or not a open world game.
And anything that it does its ok. And 8t may or maynot be a a game you will like.
Heck it could space game where you use space swords and and powers.
Who knows.
Since it is a completely new game.
And comparing it to other games unralated to it would be unfair.
So basically, Bethesda's problem isn't the engine itself but how inefficient their code is and them being too lazy to try and optimize and fix it.
dragonredux I mean, Morrowind Legacy code was found in 76.
Tells you everything you need to know about Bethesda lol.
Just about.
Hell, for a contrast, look at Call of Duty. They're still using id tech 3, but the games still run well. Why? Because they're fucking optimizing it for each game, doing the best they can with the tool. You probably won't find CoD1 code in BO4, because IW, Sledgehammer and Treyarch know what the fuck they're doing.
@733Rafael no programmers and no writers? Was this really thr case for Oblivion, if so then the last bits of hope I had for Todd Howard being a good Game Director will be all but lost
@@hansolo5912 Todd Howard is not a good game director. ZeniMax/Bethesda need to mend their relationships with and bring back Julian LeFay and/or Ted Peterson to lead TES VI.
And unfortunately an engine is only as good as the code that runs it, soooooo... it is also the engine lol. If it wasn't part of the problem we wouldn't have a problem. It would have taken a lot more work to set it up properly and optimize. If they had gotten a new engine that was built to work exactly how they intended and optimized custom for this game... of course it would be way way better in execution. You just can't argue that a fresh engine would just be better than a Frankenstein half assed years old tired engine that lacks a lot of features in modern engines built recently.
Oblivion, uses Havok: Close a body in a door, watch it melt and stretch?
Half-Life 2, uses Havok: Praised as having one of the best physics engines in a videogame, works wonderfully in almost all cases, barely any glitches. Strange physics manipulation with things like Gravity Gun (and portals in the Portal games, which also use Havok) - runs just fine.
Still think Bethesda are good, bethesdrones?
@@hallucy2215 No, the modders do not have access to the source code and thus can not change much to do with the Physics. They definitely can't fix up the horribly broken implementation of it.
And yes, Bethesda games should have physics that are as good as any other game that uses Havok. But they don't. Because Bethesda has no idea hat they are doing.
Bethesda's use of havok isn't completely iredeemable. Fallout 3 has the capability to handle far more havok clutter items than hl2 and any other havok games I know, it saves their positions even. It's satisfying to witness dozens of cans and other stuff fly all over the place when a grenade blows up.
@@aboriginalmang "Fallout 3 has the capability to handle far more havok clutter items than hl2"
Citation please. The Source engine does a fantastic job at dealing with a lot of physics objects, and the small cells present in Bethesda games means there is usually realistically only around 20-40 physics objects in play at once. Anyone who has played Garry's Mod knows you can go a lot higher than that in source. Even if your argument was true, so what. Having a lower limit, but having physics that is actually functional is infinitely superior to having 10,000 physics objects that don't work properly. Their implementation is completely broken, and "oh but they can do more" isn't really a good argument.
"It's satisfying to witness dozens of cans and other stuff fly all over the place when a grenade blows up."
That's possible in virtually every Havok-enabled game. I think you need to highten your expectations, because Bethesda is very very low.
One more thing to keep in mind: Physics in Bethesda games are, for the most part, based on extremely simple shapes. They have virtually no complex physics interactions, which is why things often feel weird or floaty or don't interact properly.
@@aboriginalmang Tell me that Bethesda can do as well as this
th-cam.com/video/H5rfUuonB40/w-d-xo.html
@@pt8306 look up 15000 or 20000 watermelon videos people made for Oblivion. It handled that many objects with better framerate than that crysis demo. I don't know if they made the right use for it, but they certainly did wonders with havok in their own ways. I've never seen other game doing it either.
Creation Engine is a byproduct of Bethesda's practices. Instead of spending the time to better their framework and fix up things. They resell Skyrim for the 40th time.
As a professional developer myself, I know of very few people who feed themselves by being a developer who are OK with shipping bad code. Nine times out of ten, it has everything to do with project mangers, executives, and people in marketing. Additionally, Bethesda games suffer from bad to non-existent QA. That has nothing to do with the devs and everything to do, again, with management.
A couple of people have mentioned problems like the tying of FPS to the physics. Again, I'm sure most of the senior developers KNEW this was a problem but were powerless to fix it because it "wasn't on the roadmap". Decisions about what bugs to fix are generally prioritized by management. Developers only have so much say in these situations.
Colby Butler I hazard that what you say essentially encompasses what is going on. Managers and exec who went to business school and are simple in the meat factory mindset. I would know, I am the unfortunate holder of a graduate degree!
Exactly. You can even track how the more money BGS game produces, the more streamlined and meh the next product becomes. Morrowind was arguably the best BGS game solely due to the fact that it was supposed to be the hail mary of the studios. Minimum restrictions, hard work and intent to do their very best in a last ditch effort, resulting in a unique product. Then again, this corporate control over process that followed isnt overly bad, but at Skyrim benefits had reached their limit, and everything goes downhill from there. Zenimax doesnt want to invest in BGS, they want BGS to produce more revenue so they can invest into different projects, like id and Arkane, and produce ever more revenue.
I don't doubt you.
Nowadays everything seems to be all flash and no substance and I always think of that interview with Steve Jobs where he talks about the marketing people taking over.
It's depressing as hell.
I will cut in on behalf of the QA testers, and how those unfamiliar with QA conditions may seemingly wish to blame them. Your point on managing hits the nail on the head, but QA testers especially are the first to call out all technical gameplay issues asap and that they are often overruled by management, and in some cases programmers. There are two primary issues.
One issue is that there's often a rift between QA testers and programmers as sometimes the attitudes of individual programming teams can view QA testers as 'causing problems' (not every project is like that, but is unfortunately common especially as QA is considered the bottom of the totem pole) that can create a reluctance to iterate on improving the technology as it can essentially create much greater workloads.
Second Is that poor management leads to a majority of QA's filed and systematically listed issues being ignored in order to get the especially horrendous bugs fixed in order to ship the product due to poor time management. As such QA testers often have to eventually send a conceited memo to project managers that they often don't agree with most of their bug reports being ignored and advise against shipping the game, but will at least sign that if the game is shipped, that they made others aware of the issues that will eventually be discovered and note that the bug reports were explicitly handed off to programmer teams and project managers. This being necessary to absolve them of the blame as more often than not they are targeted first for firings when they did their jobs systematically and thoroughly (and as one who has done QA before, you get really familiar with how to break the game and what the causes are).
QA teams know how bad the bugs are, but are in a position where they cannot enact any changes just like the devs.
I thought I remember back in the day of Oblivion came out, people were saying there are about 100 people working in QA department alone at Bethesda Studios, I guess they're all gone now huh?
So when will we get: "What if Fallout 76 was good?"
Im already hyping myself for it.
Fallout 76.1 FM
After "what if fallout 4 was good"
Too long
He needs to first go over the other 75 games, sorry.
Ive seen many comments like this, but usually followed by they wish it was less bugy, otherwise ive seen people say its "best fallout since 4"
-Blizzard "You guys don't have phones?"
-Bethesda "You guys don't have friends?"
-EA "You guys don't have wallets?"
-CDPR "You guys don't have to worry."
-Rockstar “You guys don’t have consoles?”
Praise geraldo
Unless you work for CDPR, then you have to worry. Worry about a pay rate that's not competitive with CDPR's actual competition. Worry about being made to work non-optional unpaid overtime for their perpetual crunch. Worry about burn out, psychological issues, and physical illness from being overworked. Worry about either having to quit due to physical and mental health issues caused by their unhealthy working situation, or just being laid off after your next project finishes for no reason. Worry about saying one wrong thing that locks you out of the clique, so that you can't get information vital to your work on a game, because the studio director is an oversensitive egotistical prick... Fuck CDPR! Doesn't matter how good their games are, nothing is worth how fuck awful they treat the people responsible for making those games.
@@natsume-hime2473 i would say dont trust anything yu read in the internet. and most Contracts in the Game Industry are timebased....just what? 10% of the devs are contracted fulltime in this business
"You`re holding it wrong"
programmer here: if each piece of your codebase is just "good enough" then the only thing the resulting whole will be doing well enough is falling apart.
(if a lone wall is just about good enough to hold itself up, it doesn't have enough allowance to hold anything else up on top of itself. if a bridge is just strong enough to hold its weight, it's not strong enough to withstand traffic going on top of it, etc etc...)
TIL that the reason for the "Power Armour" bug is that GameBryo can't handle vehicles, it's why the horse in Skyrim behaves the way it does when you're on it, the power armour instead being treated like a vehicle it treats power armour like it treats ordinary armours like clothes and leather armour, the npc's or player character's skeleton stretches the way it does with the glitch is to make up for that fact. Thus it treat the whole thing as one entity like a "skin" in other words, when you ride a horse in Skrim you're basically "wearing" the horse. It's the reason that the Presidential Train ride in Fallout 3 is not your character getting into a train, it's that your character is "in" an npc wearing a "hat" in the shape of train! Yes that npc has a body underneath that train, with arms and legs and runs along with a train for a hat! Let that sink again, a train for a hat! And, once more with feeling, runs along with a train for a hat!
@@Zhakaron When I heard that, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, I feckin loved that whole sequence, to learn that I was also wearing a"hat" shaped and animated like the inside of a moving train for me was Peter Griffin levels of nose bridge pinching! Sometimes it's better to not know stuff and let the mystery be alone!
clandebouyekid
Funnily enough there is a fully functioning and working Fighter jet mod for Fallout New Vegas
The mod dev tried to port it to fallout 4 and it wouldn’t work due to how slowly the engine rendered terrain.
@@MDPToasterThere's a working mod that adds cars and trucks too that's fuckin awesome
I can say I never experienced that power armor bug, but that's just my experience, I can easily see that it can happen for some, if not most people.
Same goes for the rando who gets taken away in the beginning of mother ship zeta. The claw is in his inventory
The engine ties physics to fps....enough said. It isnt the only problem, or the main problem. But it is a problem.
It's definitely a big red flag when you consider that game developers collectively learned to not do this in the DOS era.
@@KoboldCommando
Hey, at least the game pacing is not linked to clock speeds, it's at already one step forward from 1988 !
@@Zhakaron I still find it humorous they called it the "turbo" button and thus I've heard several tales of people running their computer in turbo mode thinking it made the system faster.
physics been tied to frame rate is a scripting error problem not and engine one. For example, the unity engine, has a function to smooth out animation and value changes, watch this for better explaination. unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/topics/scripting/delta-time
This is irony or sarcasm or one of those other comedic styles that doesn't work so well in a text based conversation right?
Heaven forbid I update my Pentium processor just in case it breaks a Bethesda game eh?
This feels hilarious to come back to 5 years later, with the trash pile that is starfield having just come out.
Because bethesda never changes
Quite frankly everything is wrong when it comes to Bethesda. It is outdated components, it is lazy staff, and it most certainly is shady business. The problem with blaming only one area is it gives them a way out. They should come out and say sorry for the game full stop. Then they should promise to be better in the future, something which they can be held accountable too. And lastly, Todd Howard and Pete Hines should go.
They need to be held accountable for this FO76 debacle. They just lost a ton of fans/customers. People are sick of getting ripped off.
@@cavemantero Agreed.
And Emil, don´t forget Emil.
It's the rebel alliance?
"The problem with blaming only one area is it gives them a way out" Wrong, there is always one are you can blame, because it is always at fault, and does not give them a way out. You can always blame leadership, the buck stops at project management. It is their job to be responsible, their job to run the project and communicate their needs to the people with the purse strings.
The Creation Engine works, it JUST WORKS!
Shurrup Todd
cam mciver As you wish... soon as you buy Fallout 76 Power Armor Edition $$$
LOL 😆
kekka dake da
You mean "IT JUST WORKS" as in it barely works right?
Will simply wait for streams and reviews before considering buying future Bugsethda's games...period.
Reviews? Do you not have your own OPINION?? So many tools it hurts. Everyone has different preferences.
When i unironically wait for the unoffical patch before buying a bethesda game because i know its broken on launch
@@falconater68 Not like games give you demos anymore. And I'm not going to watch multi hour gameplay videos of every game I want to buy.
@@falconater68 There is a big difference between reviews of the past and reviews of today. I do pay attention to reviews, but only those that include gameplay and from reviewers that I know have a history of actually playing most or all of the game.
I pay more attention to the displayed gameplay than the opinion of the reviewer, as most people should.
@@falconater68 those "personal preferences" are your way of saying, "just go blindly buy the game because it says fallout on the cover" if a game is objectively bad, that's not an opinion.
In captions, Skyrim Special Edition comes up as "Scam Special Edition." Ded. XD
The A.I. is waking up!
@@TheOzz325 my modded oldrim on 10y old pc looks better than ps4 special edition lul
Sucks for people who didn't get it for free, I guess. I basically use one for Skyrim and one for Enderal, so I can play both at once without having to make multiple Skyrim mod profiles. But yeah, SSE was a cash grab in the sense that they essentially sold the same game twice, and all the improvements were already done (and arguably done better) within the modding community for Oldrim.
It’s run a bit better tho
@Xero [2] Your correct. I still wouldn't pay any sum of money for that improvement though. I've never used more than 100 mods at a time, so I couldn't say much about performance hits using more than that. So in my personal experience, I couldn't note the difference between the two. But I'll take your word for it.
I wish I could hear the point of view from someone who works at Bethesda. All I hear is people who don’t work there, and I can’t help but think Bethesda will know something we don’t.
basically they get unpaid College/University interns whom get a goody bag of merchandise (cheap mouse mat, coasters posters and stationery) and a promised DLC code for a copy of the standard game upon release as a sort of payment for working 15 hour days 6 to 7 days a week.
when the interns are done, the codes handed over to the regular been there for decades and learnt nothing dev teams who basically retcon, make ‘tweaks’ and further bug the game out, because they’re idiots and have relatives as investors with Zenimax & Bethesda as leverage against being shit-canned as they should be, just counting pay checks down to release.
The ‘creative directors’ walk around spouting industry motivational jargon, whilst talking to people like shit, the dev teams have created an echo chamber environment of cultural Marxism, the ‘accounts Department’ dress and walk around like they’re Star Trek villains, regularly making veiled threats and regularly spot-interrogations of interns and fillers regarding their politics on ‘diversity and equity’
Dev teams fuck with each other by tit-for-tat mind-games on deliberately bugging code, an example of which is why Fallout4 had 46% of it cut and patched over with two DLC’s, basically on a number of the main story missions, depending on the length of time you took from getting out of the Vault to doing that mission, it would just keep bugging out graphically or crashing and or crash on random dialogue options, as soon as you picked up an item, or when you tried selling / scrapping an item from one of the locations.
What are you expecting they would/could say? An Oh I see it's not their fault answer? One that will clear them?
Thigh Connoisseur
It’s possible a Bethesda employee could explain the steps they took in making their game.
@@andrewlinn7863 It's a shitty asset flip survival game made on an outdated engine that wasn't even remotely capable of making a working online multiplayer game. What else do you want to know?
@@DARTHMOBIUS “citation needed”
That free pass is just about done in 2023 LOL
Blizzard has taught us that people will put up with the most abhorrent things provided they enjoy the games. When people don't enjoy the games they turn on the company.
The cause of the door physics bug is not Havok, as Zaric has said. It's the way doors are implemented in Skyrim. Bethesda's approach is to treat them like static obstacles just with an animation attached on top. That means that a door will play it's animation completely no matter what and if a rigid body is stuck in a gap between two unmovable objects less than itself, it's only option is to phase through one of them
For everyone wondering which games use the Havoc Physics Engine:
-The Assins Creed Series until Odyssee
-Company Of Heroes
-CoD Black Ops 1 - 4
aaaand...
Half Life 2.
THE quintessential Physics game.
Go figure.
Here is something I wrote on another video, but it's relevant here so I will repeat it, in response to the "Well their engine is old, they need a new one" comments:
People don't understand the real problem here. Being old is not an issue. Valve's Source engine is from 2004 (only 1 year after Bethesda's engine), and yet powers some of the most polished and smoothest and reliable games on the planet. This seems to be more related to pure incompetence. Bethesda has an engine that outright fails to load content when asked at times, has virtually no built-in error checking or graceful error processing (instead simply crashing to desktop), Developer tools that highly encourage bad practices, and core fundamental game issues such as the FPS being tied to the game speed. For some perspective, the Quake engine from 1996 does not suffer from this problem, despite it's age.
Old engines aren't necessarily a bad thing. Engine fundamentals haven't changed in 20+ years and while old engines may not have some of the new whiz-bang features, they are usually fundamentally sound and just as capable as newer ones in terms of basic engine features. Yet Bethesda's engine lacks basic functionality.
Bethesda needs to poach some engine designers from ID, and replace their core engine team, since they have absolutely no idea what they are doing. To put it in perspective, in the week 2 laboratory of the Game Engine Fundamentals course I was doing at university, they taught us how to implement an in-game timer that maintains a ticrate independent of framerate, and to tie all events to it. It is not hard, and yet they haven't figured it out. If an unqialified Uni student, who has no history of making or releasing games, can easily accomplish this, then a AAA developer with millions of dollars at their disposal and a huge team of engine developers has literally no excuse.
Bethesda could buy the Unreal engine, or use whatever engine they want. Their coders are still so incompetent that they would likely fuck it up. Arkham Night is a good example of what happens when bad developers get their hands on a good engine. The Source Engine and Source 2 are both based off GoldSrc which is based off the Quake engine. There is still some code which is THAT old in modern masterpieces like CS:GO. The difference is Valve knows what they are doing, and are able to rewrite old code to remove static limits or to enable rendering and creation in ways they see as useful and efficient, not just for content creation but also for performance. Bethesda has done none of this. It seems they have simply accepted the fact that the engine is "not good at some things" and instead of going and fixing them, they are working around them, which is not good for performance or stability. Bethesdas main technical focus seems to be cramming as much shit into the engine as possible - god rays, NPC schedules, realistic water etc - while leaving all the old engine issues and limitations alone to rot and corrupt all their work going forward.
Bethesda aren't just "making a mistake by using old tech". They are actively dragging the industry backwards, using old outdated techniques that we have moved beyond, are incompetent to the point of being a meme, and are too fundamentally lazy to fix any of their own issues. I highly doubt Bethesda will survive the next 10 years if they continue don this path.
Good assessment, ty. One question though. Why couldn't they buy a brand new engine, and simply hire a few people that know how to use it that could lead the teams to develop the game? Learning how to use a new engine at a basic level couldn't be that hard.
If I had to guess, this might be the source of the problem. They have some old dinosaurs that don't want to let go of power, and don't want to learn something new.
@MTRredux who is playing catch up with Bethesda in terms of world building? What does this mean?
gtfo with your false equivalence. Bugthesda is housing the shittiest devs of any studio.
@MTRredux their design philosophy may be amazing but it doesn't change the fact that their technology is outdated as hell
@MTRredux Wrong. The Bethesda game engine is so fundamentally broken that physics don't work properly, game speed is tied to the framerate, and whole areas will just refuse to load or cause a crash to desktop. This isn't just a case of "all games have bugs", Bethesda are especially incompetent and don't just have the occasional bug - their entire engine is completely broken on every level. Literally the only reason they get away with it is because they are the only company making first-person open world RPGs. The irony is, by reducing the RPG elements and instead turning their games like Fallout 76 into looter shooters, they now have to compete with games like Destiny 2 - games which actually function reliably on a technical level. This will be their downfall.
The rest of the industry isn;t playing catch-up with Bethesda for anything. Plenty of other games have amazing environmental storytelling and have been doing it for decades. Bethesda has simply found a corner of the market that nobody else has bothered with, and infested it with their own incompetence. That is all changing, and Witcher 3 is the writing on the wall. Bethesda are the ones playing catch up, and they cannot survive with legitimate competition, which they now have. Bethesda's "Unique Design Philosophy" is to be lazy and barely innovate or improve anything, instead piling the new release on top of the same old broken tech from the previous release. Worse, their engine being fundamentally broken is eventually going to make their work take longer. All broken tools make the developers using them less efficient. Which means it will take them longer to do releases, and the releases will be of lower quality than those in the past.
This is unsustainable. BGS will be bankrupt within 5 years. Bethesda/ZeniMax (the publisher) will close BGS's doors permanently, and remain a publisher. You heard it here first.
@MTRredux I find a "facade" of a city much more immersive than Skyrims cities for example. The NPC in skyrim too often make you remember that you're playing a game instead of experiancing a completely different world. Also how often do you talk to random people on the street? You don't need much more for background characters than an animation loop if it lets you build massive cities.
The witcher 3 is absolutely an RPG by the way.
Creation Engine doesnt use Delta Timing, which is preposterous these days, because all competition do have it. Therefore 63 fps cap is needed as gamebreake prevention.
Agreed, delta timing is standard, heck I can optimise animations and variables just by writing a few lines of code in Unity.
They've fixed the game of speed tied to frame rate already
This was changed in the Creation Engine recently with Fallout 76.
Sure. But they should have done that many years ago. That is the problem ultimately, they have failed to update the engine, UI and such to competitive standard.
I guess it never crossed anyone's mind at Bethesda to make a better management system on the Pit boy either - and someone had to do that for them to..
The joke here is the "Games play better on XBox" (already a meaningless statement) is going to be an outright lie as people beaver away at fixing Fallout76 instead of Bethesda, and those fixes will be PC specific meaning the Poor ol' XBox isn't going to be playing anything well let alone better in 6 months time compared to the PC once people have rolled their sleeves up and got stuck into fixing it. Things like distorted & elongated limbs and broken fire effects might get fixed on PC and left in the same shameful state on console - unless by some miracle they bother to do a "special edition" for the post 2020 machines - and frankly I'd have to wonder how much they bothered to fix Fallout 3 or 4 before I considered that viable (if the game is still being played by anyone online still in 2021 say).
I would guess their MO is not to make a good engine and physics then build the game play - but to throw stuff at the screen and see what sticks and call the world "vast" and say that is enough.
Who is laughing now ? 😈
PRESIDENT OF THE CHESS CLUB
We !!
lol. I was in the chess club
This is a old video but now in 2023 with Starfield having been released and when you think back to when Todd Howard wanted to release it a year earlier, the phrase “good enough” is exactly how Bethesda operates, not to mention that they expect the moders to “fix” the game!
I've seen almost no one trying to use the game engine as a way to take off blame from bethesda, i've mostly seen people blaming bethesda and then blaming them even more for using an outdated engine.
As a Software developer, I can tell you that Bethesda devs probably know all the things you mentioned. But they get de-prioritized. I do not agree with your point that Bethesda didn't think that people with PCs will have different refresh rates. No, they would have known, but it might have pushed back as P2/P3 bug instead of as a P0 /P1 bug in view of the deadlines.
I agree. I was on both end of stick as I work with other teams and file bugs on them. However, almost always, I trust my PM to do the right decision i.e. whether customers care about the feature/bug that needs to be added/fixed. Fortunately, I had my share of good PMs mostly. In this case, it looks like a horrible or deliberate mismatch of customer expectations vs PM's requirements and priority management. As a Dev, sometimes I don't trust my gut because what I think is cool is not necessarily cool for my customer. In case of game devs, they might be closer to customer than the management.
@MTRredux if you are an indie Dev or a new studio - yes. But nobody expects that from a 60 dollar AAA title. We all know that game is nowhere near ready when they released. Not just this bug, there are other game breaking stuff as well. Deprioritization because of deadline, not because it's not required, always ends up a subpar product to consumers.
@MTRredux Even if you had one, the game runs so bad you cant make use of it. ROFL
@@Zhakaron this is why I coddled my testers. Candy, meals, bringing them in to design discussions, you name it. That job can be so disheartening.
this confirms my suspicion: this seems to be a management / production scheduling / quality assurance problem.
after playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey i am not sure i can ever go back to BGS's idea of a open world with cities the size of small villages and villages being just two or three houses
To be fair, the cities in the older Ac games, which came out around the same time Fallout 3, NV, and Skyrim, the AC cities took up the entire game world. So the Fallout 3 map would have just been the city of Rome in AC Brotherhood for example.
And that is why I love the Assassin Creed games. You actually get to feel immersed while traveling through the city in the way YOU want to. The only thing Bethesda's games got is a tad more RPG elements.
@@ProfessorBalth Something i missed when playing Odyssey and Witcher 3 was the lack of interaction with the game world, neither let you sit down in chairs, open and close doors or many of the little things Bethesda games allow for. Not to mention of course both lack a first person view.
@@Sleepy.Time. I understand those criticisms, mind you it would make the combat kind of impossible if it was first person.
@@ProfessorBalth agreed, melee combat struggles when in first person
Has Lord Zhakaron, god-king of sodium had his fill tonight?
God-King Sodium
*The Creation Engine Didn't Just Die | It Was Murdered!*
Same topic with the reload issues for non magazine fed gun Fallout 4. People blamed the creation engine for not being able to count the bullets correctly for a proper reload animation on the lever action rifle. But Obsidian did it for New Vegas. It’s not a “limitation of the engine”, it’s just just that Bethesda couldn’t be bothered to implement it into Fallout 4, which they could have, since modders did.
That doesn't even have to be a feature of the engine. Aren't guns controlled by scripts?
Anyway, a single int to track current ammo (which probably exists since you can see your ammo in UI?) is enough. And you could go further and track current chamber and which chambers were fired to use appropriate animations for reload if you want.
@@zhulikkulik Four years later but yeah, it’s not even a issue with the engine, but regardless the issue is often blamed on the engine itself rather than just bad scripting, or in the bullet-count case a lack of script at all.
So the engine isn't janky, the company is. Hmm.
Even if the engine is stable, Bethesda’s games always look five years behind graphically
And now, almost three years hence, with yet another release of Skyrim on the horizon (which I'm speculating will have an "always online" requirement), they will inevitably fail to fix bugs that have been present since the original release and have been well documented. Zero pride of ownership.
So let me get this straight, Bethesda has the time and the money to hire people to fix all of these problems because clearly they lack someone with the knowledge on how to since all these problems exist. I think it is an ego thing or something for someone in the top management on Bethesda because no human being can look at this pile of trash called fallout 76 and 4 and say this is a good game and works good. Hell looking at RED DEAD 2 we can clearly see what real programmers are capable of so why does Bethesda management refuse to hire some of them at elevated salaries????? Hell why not contract ID software to fix this stuff for them since they seem like they actually know how to make a good game engine with working physics and good lighting and not look like Vaseline has been smeared across the scree and not so much bloom that is enough to blind people. I like games Bethesda publishes not the ones t he game studio makes and Fallout New Vegas will forever be the thorn in their sides as long as Bethesda exists. See bugs can be forgiven a bit if the game was made in like 2 years with little to no budget and has good stories and well defined characters. You strip that and people realize just how bad the game engine really was.
Exactly. They need to clean house at the top.
They need to fire their entire programming divisions. Creation is an inexcusably, appallingly bad engine for a company with the size and popularity of Bethesda. Hide some people who actually know what they are doing
So what you're saying is that we're in deeper shit than we had thought. ^^
edwin11373 so you thought that tey are competent after playing the game?. No he is trying to tell us that everything we thought amd said is a reality...
@@Davinhomx shut up bitch
People don’t even understand that creating a game engine is extremely time consuming and difficult. Most people haven’t even created a simple game using an engine so don’t be mad that they haven’t made a new one, cuz it’s gonna be a minute
Thank you. I learned a lot.
Unfortunately, I believe Bethesda is more like an adult who's set in his ways, and the level of disconnect between the studio and the fans will only exacerbate their arrogance.
Completely agree with you. It's the studio that should take the blame for this stuff. People want to believe that Bethesda can still make good content but it's clear that they have no intention of improving their mechanics and just generating as much "content" as possible. They've gotten lazy sitting on their massively successful franchises.
It just comes down to efficiency, minimum effort. There is a culture of "that'll do" within the company, the employees probably only have to worry about a certain number of goals related to quantity, not quality of content. I'm sure they are competent people it's just that they are in an environment that resembles college, and like an efficient college student that studies the minimum to qualify, they just do the minimum when it comes to the gameplay part
This video is 4 years old but still very apt now the Starfield is out. The engine itself isn't the full problem, it's Bethesda's lack of fixing things that's holding things back.
And it's clearly NOT a lack of money that's holding things back. If they wanted to sell a few million, they can easily do so with a couple of remakes.
Really telling how applicable it is to starfield.
I love the studio but it's tough love, Bethesda needs to get their shit together.
The game's a "buggy mess" yet you're happy to sink 60 hours into it. Sometimes gamers enjoy pain lol.
@@Zhakaron haha so true
We all have guilty pleasures don't we :-)
If you pay for a shitty product you lose the right to complain when game companies fuck you sideways
Cristian Tiberiu Oprea Knowing Bethesda's track record I always wait a year after they release anything to buy it...to give them time to patch and the modders time to do unofficial patches that actually fix things. There was no way I was going to buy Fallout 76 preorder...and I'm glad I didn't. Zenimax did ok with ESO so maybe Bethesda should have swallowed their pride and left any multiplayer to Zenimax and Bethesda just focus on single player games.
@@Jennifur68 You apparently haven't played ESO. ESO launch was a mess. The game was buggy as well for 2 years straight. I couldn't even do quests with my friend, because they were either bugging out or the game didn't record quest objectives for both players, making it pain to play. HOWEVER these days ESO is a great game. Also i'm 100% sure Fallout 76 is gonna be really popular within few years after release and DLC's. Only thing haunting the game is the past of the bad reviews. They need a re-release and re-branding kinda like ESO did with One tamriel -patch. It later on finally became the game it wanted to be and got the deserved fame for it.
"good enough we can build a second floor on this"
That is EXACTLY what I said while building my tree house camp
Gamebryo is a diesel engine. Bethesda is the only one who fills it up with gasoline.
So this video came up in my recs, and I've heard people mention you before as a good video essayist for Skyrim. I've done reverse-engineering and disassembly on Skyrim's engine and occasionally talked about the engine as a broader thing, and about FO76, so I figured I'd give this a watch and see what you're like.
You said a thing about seven minutes in, so I'll just type up my responses as I watch, I guess.
---
7:40 The AI and scripting systems aren't the same. NPC AI don't run as part of the Papyrus VM, and their limits don't really indicate anything about the VM. A lot of people complain about Papyrus, but I built a literal map editor in it and the VM itself was never my problem.
The trick is that there are certain things it's specialized for. If your code is the most important and special thing ever and it *has* to take priority over everything else (which is not unreasonable for the sort of off-the-wall things mods often try to do), then Papyrus isn't as well-suited for it. Papyrus excels for the sort of smaller, less time-critical tasks that some 90% of vanilla scripts need to do.
12:00 The CK is the same tool that Bethesda themselves use. The engine development, kit development, and content creation often occur in parallel. One indicator of this is that Skyrim has script comments making reference to features that were planned and abandoned, such as enumerated types in Papyrus. So it's not that the modding tools are an afterthought, because the modding tools *are* some of the internal tools.
The far more likely reason for a delayed CK launch is the need to strip out integrated tools with restrictive licenses, which Bethesda can't legally share with us, and source control stuff meant to operate on Bethesda's private networks. If they're especially courteous, they could also delay the launch to fix CK bugs that they just had to live with during development due to time constraints.
17:20 "The good enoughs?" "Lack of pride?" Any programmer who refuses to stop until their work is literally perfect is gonna burn out decades before they have something they're willing to ship. Professional dev or mod author, there's always going to come a point where you ship your work now, or you never do.
That doesn't mean you can punt anything out the door and call it a day. Rather, it's as reductive as it is easy to claim that Bethesda's problems stem from their programmers not caring about their work -- as opposed to issues with organization, management, or just them assessing a situation incorrectly and putting their eggs in the wrong baskets.
20:00 Refactoring and improving code iteratively isn't "complacency," and it isn't even all that rare. I know offhand that every main-series Halo game has been built the same way, for example, and even though that series hasn't been faring so well due to its design, it's never had a reputation as a series with poor programming (the MCC notwithstanding, given that it wasn't a main-series or otherwise iterative work).
It's a far better use of one's time to avoid throwing everything away and starting again, in favor of redesigning individual components that could be better -- throwing away just the underperforming parts rather than a whole that could potentially be made to work. Bethesda *do* this. The switch from ObScript to Papyrus is one major example. Others include Skyrim's switch from Gamebryo animations to Havok animation graphs (Havok isn't *just* for physics), and the switch from a proprietary UI engine to Scaleform.
23:40 What? Bethesda absolutely did create Papyrus/Institute; it's not off-the-shelf software. The world grid implementation is theirs. The UI engine used prior to Skyrim was theirs (and its design was really, really good!). Most of the series' content runs based on their classes and systems. Gamebryo doesn't have perks, AI schedules, Oblivion's magic system, and so on built into it. Bethesda had to build all of that. Where did you hear otherwise?
---
People -- including you, in this video -- talk about "the modders" as if we're some remote group of masters, but, like,... you can talk to us. You or anyone else can message us or join our Discords or whatever, and ask us what we know about how things work. Most of us love talking about this stuff and sharing what we do with people. I myself help run the /r/skyrimmods Discord server.
As is, you correctly recognize that Gamebryo isn't the problem, but instead of saying anything substantive, most of the video strikes me as little more than, "The programmers at Bethesda are all, individually, lazy and stupid." You clearly did try to research this topic, but maybe you just didn't know of many places to look, perhaps.
I scroll the comments to find gems like this one, thank you for your input.
Underrated comment. Hope more people see this.
I don’t think he meant to say that there’s anything wrong with iteratively improving and refactoring code. He’s basically just claiming they don’t fix their technical debt before moving on to the next game.
I don't think many people get what a game engine is or what it does.
The Creation Engine needs improvements and updates, sure. But it is capable of getting a lot done with what it's got. The RAGE Engine used by Rockstar has been around in some form since before 2006. It's the many additions and minor changes that make it what it is today. It's not the same engine it was 12 years ago. And neither is The Creation Engine.
However, as one comment mentioned, the optimization is super poor. I agree, Creation Engine did nothing wrong, but Bethesda can definitely put more into it than they are. They're resting on their developmental laurels and it's becoming a PR eyesore.
Proof of Bethesda's shortcomings in regards to the Bethesda engine is in all the fixes and improvements to visuals and stability that the community has made over the years, old 32bit Skyrim is actually pretty damn stable if you use the right community patches and fixes together, with SKSE, ENBoost, Crash Fixes, and others you can make the engine much more stable than Vanilla, proving its entirely possible for Bethesda to do this, but they don't because of their attitude.
@@treeaboo Agreed. It does seem like they feel comfortable letting modders finish their work. I wonder if that's partly the impetus for the creation club concept of paying for mods to low key compensate modders for fixing their mistakes.
Bethesdas code is the problem
No, RAGE Engine is 100% uptodate. The thing Rockstar introduced in their games back in 2006 was Euphoria which is the physics part.
@@thalismetaldrummer3793 rage engine was built upon the angel engine from the year 2000. In 2006, they added euphoria on this angel engine and in 2008 GTA IV was made. Yes it's different from the engine used for GTA 3 because rockstar bought the developer studio of midnight club.
The Ghost in the Shell SAC FA game ran on Gambryo and it ran perfect. Bethesda just added things that aren't necessary .
Here's an issue with the frankin-engine:
You can't update part of the game such as a texture or model without updating and recompiling/re-archiving the maps its used in.
unlike other newer engines where you can link to the file, the maps themselves need recompiling and therefor the updates for this online game will always be really big.
A recent one being over 40GB but only being around 200mb of actual additions. THAT is a problem.
Let me just counter one reply:
"but we all have good internet these days"
No, no we don't. me adding an extra 40GB to my datausage in a single day or two will push me and many others into a slower connection.
data caps exist, throttling exists. you can't always "change to another ISP". we all don't live in cities.
Zaric, I know you love games that have been made using this engine, nobody's going to take that away form you.
But this engine DOES have issues that can't be coded away.
How is that even an engine issue?
If they want to they can just have a patchfile download that then opens the .bsa and updates the containing file.
Heck they could just make a new small bsa with only the changed file itself and load it after the bsa that contains the file it updates (which is how modern engines do it).
Not to mention you can replace any model/texture in the game easily by literally just plopping the mesh/texture in the correct folder structure.
The game is fully update-able by smaller patches.
Nothing you mentioned is an engine thing. This all comes down to a decision by bethesda again tbh.
So basically the big "AAA" corporation that we know as Bethesda & their corporate overlords at Zenimax basically lied to us about how they "built each game from the ground up" when it comes to Elder Scrolls & the Fallout games made by them too? On top of that, they apparently have lazy and/or stupid programmers with all the programming "expertise" of the infamous Yandere Dev? Wish I could say I was shocked, but ALL "AAA" game companies are just salesmen. Always remember one old adage when it comes to buying ANY product: NEVER trust a salesman! Bethesda also needs to fire or retrain their programmers to put an end to lazy & sloppy coding! There's simply NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER for leaving in bugs that have been in their games for AT LEAST TWENTY YEARS! I'd also recommend that Todd Howard be taken OUT of the director's chair & put into Bethesda's marketing department! Emil Pagliarulo should go with him as well since the guy REALLY isn't cut out for writing fictional stories! Why do I think they belong in marketing? Because people in marketing departments all tend to be VERY experienced LIARS!
Thank you, someone said it. Its been bugging me so much watching all these comments rant on about it when they have no idea how a game engine actually works.
I have every idea of how it works and I agree the engine needs replacement.
Iv'e worked with Unreal 4 and CE, CE is outdated and needs to go.
@@hoodaticus the game engine may need replacing but if bethesda still doesnt know how to work there current engine is a new one such a good idea
@@decdoesminecraft1 if they want to make a professional mmo I don't think they have much choice. Running game logic on the client in an mmo is amateur hour.
@@hoodaticus i agree it needs replaced but they have 0 idea what they are doing right now so it wont get any better with a new engine
I wanna know, why Bethesda has consistently awkward animations, in literally every game it makes. Even ESO has awkward animations!
Reminder to bethesdrones that it was impossible to complete the main quest of Skyrim at all without a patch.
Yes, that the truth about Bethesda.
It's not the engine, it's just, that they don't know how to create games. Not RPG games or similar. Just, they don't know how to create videogames.
I have fear that the next TES VI, I'll gonna be something like Call of Duty with fantasy-medieval flavour.
Gamebryo was used to make DAoC, Bully, many ST games and quite a few other classics. Gamebryo is fine, Bethesda programmers are the problem. God forbid the hate train think otherwise.
Not to mention you give Bethesda an easy excuse. Yep guys.. you were right! Our next game will be a different engine and it will be good and not bad because of our incompetence. Don't blame the tool.. blame the carpenter.
Not the programmers, but management which decides - what things to prioritize and what things to be put in backlog.
The tool itself is fucking garbage though. All those games were carried either by the narrative and the simple but fun features.
Nothing complicated ever happened. Bethesda is trying to make things happen with the tools that are not fit for the job.
Stop defending this shit of an engine. Similar to how people defended unreal engine 3 well beyond its time. That engine was good for some time but became outright obsolete within years. Awful texture streaming, inability to use gpus properly for physic calculations and so on. We heard about it's capabilities and saw glimpses of its potential but not a single game out there did any of the things it was hyped for. Not without a mountain load of issues at least.
Let's just stop defending creation engine before it becomes the next ue3. A garbage engine with a good easy to use editor that even monkeys could create worlds in.
That is an overly simplistic way of looking at things. There is a reason there are multiple programming languages with different paradigms. Design decisions in any software matter, the language used matters as does the design of the given project. I can say from experience that if I had the time I would rewrite the code base I maintain in a statically typed language and sacrifice the overall flexibility of Ruby to avoid having to run my code to actually catch stupid misspellings and other things I can only find out about at runtime (Unless I go through everything with a fine tooth comb myself. Specs aren't an option since this is in fact spec code.) because Ruby isn't conducive to static analysis.
I can count myself lucky in that it is the consensus of everyone who has worked with this code that it should be nuked so there is no resistance to just abandoning whole swaths of the current code and rewriting it as deemed necessary. The developers at Bethesda are probably not so fortunate.
@Christopher Simon Did you read what I said? Did you read it and think what I meant was that the actual coders are the ones deciding whether or not to make the changes we know (however vaguely) that they need to make?
Hate trains always look for simple answers. It's kinda like how a football team sucks and everyone blames the QB, nevermind how he can't throw the ball half the time because the O-line is paper, or the receivers that couldn't catch a cold, of the coach who makes predictable calls, or even the cheapass owner.
The Gamebryo engine is a simple thing to blame, because it takes effort to really get into the truth - that Bethesda has no fucking clue what they're doing, and maybe SHOULD have died off instead of finding success with Morrowind.
I mean the Unreal engine 5 is basically an massively updated version of the Unreal engine 4. Unreal Engine has been upgraded several times up to UE5. The issues are not with the engine in Bethesda it’s the team building the games.
I have always thought of Bethesda as a developer that gets by on the strength of concept alone. If instead of the Elder Scrolls, Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind, you had [insert generic RPG here], the games would be utter laughing stocks and widely panned by critics. The developing talent just isn't there with Bethesda, and most their sway comes from the artistic side, as in the stuff outside the technicalities of game development, etc.
Bethesda doesn’t seem to understand rpg’s anymore. They should stick with fps more.
I've played 40+hrs Skyrim with over 600 mods (many of them just patches and fixes) and the game never crashed. Modders made the engine just much better than Bethesda ever could
My problem with the Creation Engine has, and always will be, that 60fps lock. It was excusable for Skyrim back in 2011, even though plenty of other games made the jump to higher frame rates. Fallout 4 though? that came out WAY into the era of 144hz G-Sync/Freesync monitor, and was clearly behind the times that way. Now, with FO76 and future titles, its straight up archaic to admit higher framerates from a PC game release.
Thank goodness for the Skyrim FPSfix. That game from 2011 looks butter smooth at 100+fps. It's not even really a mod, it just automates INI tweaks... which makes Bethesda's failure to add FPS options even more baffling.
wild to sit here, playing starfield, hearing you talk about bethesda burning their money on "10th planet"
I've modded all the Bethesda games from Morrowind to Fallout 4, and yeah they've used literally the same engine.
The engine itself is good, it's their shotty code slapped all over the place.
I believe they've mentioned that all the code is written in a way that reacts to what *_the_* player does.
I say the player, because they only ever account for one.
All quests to small encounters are based on the fact there is only ever one player.
If you add a second player, all those quests and functions are now broken.
Fallout 76 is suffering from this greatly, I'm sure there is latent, unfound codes from Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3 and possibly even Fallout: New Vegas.
This is what is causing all the glitches.
The best way around this issue is to build the entire game from the ground up.
_They would still be able to use the Creation Engine and the art assets from Fallout 4, they just can't use a single code if they want it to work._
Rip skyrim together
The Creation Kit is not the engine. The engine is the part that actually does stuff. The Creation Kit only feeds it data.
@@hoodaticus That's exactly why you can still use it though. You can design the engine to use the same formats and hooks as are produced by the CK. The CK is just a database manipulation tool.
@@ezeepeezee Exactly. Keep the kit, lose the engine. Most of the stuff in the engine should be moved to the server for an mmo. If Bethesda doesn't want real programmers laughing at them. Which, we are.
So you're telling me Bethesda used an engine optimised for MMOs to create a series of single-player games... before using the same engine to create a not-MMO (Fallout 76)?
#Feelsbadman 🙃🙏⚰️
@@Zhakaron MMO engines don't lock game speed to frame rate. Not anymore anyway.
@@hoodaticus They don't do a lot of what Bethesda did haha
From what I gathered Bethesda's developpers are expected to be ususually versatile, which may have resulted in a lack of proffesionalization. Their team may therefore not be equiped to rework the engine on their own.
That could be why they have a level designer as their lead writer now
Yes, I heard they might do everything when needed. Also another problem is up until 2017 they only had around 100 of them (now 400). Maybe these issues correlate with each other, they had to be versatile because they hadn't got enough workforce.
@@lordloverocket81 Seriously? Wow, what is this company?
The multiplayer additions and reworking of Creation engine for Fallout 76 came from BGS Austin, the studio formerly known as BattleCry. In other words devs new to Bethesda, inexperienced with ANY existing Creation engine tools were the ones tasked with hacking in their own multiplayer components likely based on ones from a totally different, scrapped game (BattleCry). It's really not that surprising that the end result isn't particularly stable or performant.
@Aleksa Petrovic stalker devs worked under really shitty condition for a corrupt gamr producer too, and the result was a buggy unfinished mess with cluttered vision and cryptic codes all around the place, because staffs worked and left, programmers came and go, so many ex stalker devs but there are no stalker devs in Ukraine. Valve studio was like a leisure with snack bars and pies that made gaben fat, but their games are still praised by everyone.
You'd think after 20 years there would be new employees that do take pride in their work and the games would eventually be better right? Idk but to me it seems like a higher up problem making all the lower employees rush work that's why they half ass things like just removing the key binding option.
There are plenty of develpers that use old engines. They would however retool it and improve it. Fixing problems and what not. Bethesda doesn't do that. They only recyle the same components and build on top of the previous game. Hence why their games keep suffering from the same problems. It is Bethesda well being lazy. I don't see how them getting a new engine would magically fix all of their problems. It is determined by their work ethic and how they use it. Their track record does not bode well either way.
The best dressed TH-camr OF ALL TIME
I like Zaric, but he can't beat Reviewbrah's suit game.
There's absolutely no reason for triple A games from one of the biggest studios around should have such unsatisfying combat. There's many modern rpgs that have great combat and Bethesda has really held themselves back by their refusal to do the work to make actually satisfying game play
morrowind was made on "Netlimmerse" engine, oblivion, fallout 3 and NVegas was made on Gamebryo. creation 1 saw skyrim, fallout4 and fallout76 . creation 2 will see starfield and TES6
the engine is almost never the issue. The only time an engine is the problem is if it doesn't make sense to use it, such as rainbow six using the same engine as assassins creed (never was intended for first person games).
If you don't believe me they used the engine used to make the tiger woods games to make the lord of the rings games.
_They did nothing wrong, they did everything correct_
DarkSydeBethesda
ack ack ack
*snort*
It is Bethesda's fault. But the creation engine is still incredibly outdated.
Just look at CD Projekt Red..
They made an open world game more massive more complex and more STABLE than Bethesda could ever dream off,
on their FIRST TRY! (first attempt at an open world, third attempt on a game)
and I'm not even counting the infinetely better Voices, Story, Combat, Optimised graphics, Dlc, Bug fixing, Dev support etc....
So they invested their profits to next product instead of just eating it. They almost went bankrupt during TW2. Invest in your product FFS @@FirstnameLastname-gi5ir
The "Creation Engine" is the product of Bethesda's coders doing in-house "upgrades" to licensed technology because management decided it would be cheaper than paying for official upgrades to Gamebryo (which hasn't had an official release since 2012.) It isn't a scapegoat, it's the crystallization of everything Bethesda has done wrong.
Bring Id Software to the rescue.
I think the reason why Bethesda game studios will not bring ID software to help them with their engine is a result of pride
Who wants to bet that if Bethesda uses Unreal Engine 4 that they'll use blueprint for all the scripting
I have noticed there is a phenomena with gamers; where they often don't want to admits that game developers can be just as lazy and incompetent as anyone else. If anything spurred on by blue check loudmouth developers, they often mock people who criticise shoddy game making as just being neckbeards/incels/younameit. ;3
This really is the problem. The gaming industry has become so openly hostile to its own customer base, and then wonder why people pirate their shitty, poorly optimized games.
Seb E ikr rockstars fans think they are invincible to criticism
Gamebryo/NetImmerse can look very very good when you put forth the effort to do so. However,Gamebryo itself isn't really used anymore(especially with the ease of UE). Wasn't it last major string of updates to 2008-2015? The last Gamebryo game itself was a F2P shooter that died on the vine due to engine problems,connection problems and lack of population.
However,I dont think Gamebryo without a massive,and I mean massive overhaul is ready for the future unlike UE,iDtech or something along those lines.
Bethesda even with access to the tools that iDtech can provide them won't do it. Because that means they would have to be spending money that they don't want to. Then they'd have to redo the mod tools so the modders could fix their games for them so they don't have to.
BGS is the epitome of lazy.
When you overhaul a car engine, you turn it into a new engine.
@@hoodaticus yes and no. For most rebuilds you want to reuse as much as you can. It saves time and recycles.
What you dont want to do is reinstall worn out parts(like Bethesda does). You want new parts to fix the old parts shortcomings(see UE4 and iDTech)
@@NikolaiMihailov1 Yes, anything that's worn out is discarded, thus making the overhauled product "new" in my way of thinking. Even if 90% of the original mass is retained. Certainly there's a lot that Bethesda could salvage, certainly the Creation Kit doesn't need to be thrown out to fix the engine.
Hey I know this video is old but is this video still stand as of today as of Starfield just wondering. hey man love your channel love your videos
Sounds like it's time for me to try out the Witcher 3
Seriously? You've been keeping that in your back pocket?
@@ryankl1984 Of course! Always have to have something to fall back on.
Have you played Red Dead 2? It’s honestly one of the best games released of this generation
@@SwooshJush83 Nah Red Dead 2 is alright but far from great.
This video was a hell of an eye opener. I always thought it was the engines beth used that were responsible for the bugs. I didn't know they were piling on game after game on top of one another like some house of cards. Damn. good investigative skills my man.
i'm not sure it's even a lack of pride, i think it's that they have too much of it, bethesda only makes what they want to play, that's why they keep remaking skyrim and that's why they don't back down in cases like fallout 4 and 76 where people drag it through the mud before even touching it, bethesda is a bad case of little timmy who wants to be an artist and make the pictures he has in his head, he gets all the right materials because people helped him decide what he needed, and his first work turned out ok because of this, but he never gets any better because no one taught him to take care of his supplies or tells him what he's doing wrong or how to do it right
This is all well and good, but wouldn't a new and updated engine be better in the long run anyway?
I get that "GAMEBYRO IS OLD!" is an over used point and scapegoat, but you can't deny that this thing is actually *OLD*
It's kind of like patching up an old car over and over again, rather than just buying a new one.
You gotta move on at some point, no?
That argument is totally invalid. You could say the very same thing about the unreal engine, which still uses bits and pieces from its creation 20 years ago.
@Vorst By your own logic Unreal and Unity should be retired also. Unreal is 20 years old and Unity is around 13. And those engines do the same thing - Iterations or Patching up the old car as you put it. None of these engines are new. For that matter a ton of software is old. 3ds Max, Photoshop, Maya and the list goes on and on.
@@realmanuches yeah but the engines get updated. We have unreal engine 3 and 4 but the creation engine is a mess at this point. Zaric did make a lot of valid points in this video.
@StahPK @Mr. Internet Man
Huh, I thought Unreal 4 was actually just a new engine all together? At that rate though isn't this like the whole Ship of Theseus thing?
If they update the parts of the game engines as though if they're modular, can you even call it the same engine that it was 20 years ago? I get why they'd do it since branding and what have you.
@Aethere_Nocturna
Oh yeah, I don't disagree that Bethesda's design philosophy is hot garbage.
Source is a bit of a weird one though, I don't know if Valve don't update it or not anymore, or which recently released games use it? Not including games from Valve themselves, mind you.
@@dijkstra4698 I think that's what my problem with CE is?
I don't think they really 'update' the engine, and rather it seems they jury rig whatever parts need to be changed to fit whatever game it's being used for?
The creation engine murdered my dog!!!!1111112345
I'm only about 10 minutes in, but I feel the need to say that linking game speed to framerate was a huge programming sin back in the late 80s/earlier 90s, much less a game from the new millennium. That's absolutely shameful...
You are absolutely right and here is my 2 cents on what happened @ bethesda:
They hired a guy with experience in multiplayer games for the feasibility study of F76.
The programmer came in with a huge report on costs and time of development to Todd's office.
The programmer:
Buying unreal engine and translate assets 2 years of development.
Voice acting, UI, etc... 1 year of development.
Polishing 1 year of development.
In 4 years it be done.
If you use the current engine how you asked, it will take:
1 year on it's own to get the multiplayer to work without crashing too often, then another 4 years of development to get everything FO4 does already to sync properly.
Voice acting, UI, etc... 1 year of development.
Polishing 1 year of development.
In 7 years it be done.
Todd:
I think you misunderstood why we brought you here.
We only need FO4 to have some resemblance of multiplayer support without spending too much, since our target audience are the whales who will quit the game in a few days anyway.
Your job is to tell us how can we get more money out of those suckers.
The programmer:
1 year to get the multiplayer to work.
3 months to build a world with the current assets.
Spend most of the investment on marketing and just something mundane to keep the whales busy doing the same things like "fetch quests".
Make as many expensive special additions as you can by selling franchise collectables. Whales love that.
Make your micro-transaction as expensive as you can, since whales do not care how much they spend.
In 1.3 years it be done.
Todd.
Thanks, but I disagree, I think it can be done in 1 year, you are fired.
How many engines still uses the base of QUAKE Engine ?
I guess they have to change too :)
Having an old startout is not an argument. Game engines get upgraded. But I think Beth's engine was upgraded poorly.
Quake Engine games are not games with ton of scripts built on top of a shaky foundation held together with strings.
Or the unreal engine
Mr Buzz no because they don’t look and play like shit
If you still find scripts from two games earlier while just looking around with the Developer-supplied modding tool, you know you're dealing with a barely updated - old - engine with sparkling (new light and particle effects repositories) thrown on top.
"There's no gamebryo code in the Creation Engine" is so wrong it hurts, if you've ever launched the CK you'll see for yourself remnants of older games, Skyrim has FNV & Fo3 weapon options in its weapon options (scopes, recoil, etc), and it has Oblivion inventory icon options, as well as Morrowind settings, and as you say, it has many of the same bugs that Morrowind had (many have been fixed, it's very true, but some remain), there's a reason the Editor hasn't changed a huge amount (which is very useful for modders as it allows them to smoothly transition from one game to another).
All what you are list is Bethesda stuff not Gamebryo.
@@sesom07 Have you not watched the video? That's just a tiny bit on the surface of how you can see how things are left in and recycled, a symptom of a larger whole.
You simply brought your argument wrong. Zaric did. It's Bethesda that doesn't want to update/debug/change and leave all that stuff in their shitty engine because someone could use it while world building/quest making. But what you listed is NOT GAMEBRYO. Please look up Gamebryo on youtube and see what it actually does and is capable off. It's not much.
@@sesom07 Except they can't use it, because that stuff is non-functional in the CK, but still exists in the code regardless, and you seem to have missed my point, that was an example of the tip of the real problem, you can look through the .ini files and see the same thing for both Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout, and Gamebryo settings.
It seems you've missed the point being made here.
@JenModding That stuff is in because other stuff uses parts of it and it's easier to keep all of it in instead to clean up. I take offense simply in your examples from your first posting not the Gamebryo settings you added now.
I guess "I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow to the knee" sums up Bethesda perfectly. They used to be bold adventurers for Elder Scrolls 1 & 2, creating games unimaginable at the time. Now they are crippled by their own ineptitude.