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Skyrim, Oblivion, & Morrowind | “Power Fantasy” - Elder Scrolls 6 & Mass Market Appeal
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2016
- Lately I've received requests to talk about the concept of the "Power Fantasy", and what constitutes being a Mary Sue or Marty Sue and why I pick on Skyrim for the Dovahkiin story, while praising the Nerevarine, something some think to be the same. Well, here I go. Welcome to Mass-Market Appeal of newer games, this is the direction the series is going, and it's not going to stop.
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Links to References Made:
Legend of Zelda Manual (for story reference): legendsoflocali...
Sword Art Online Review: bit.ly/2dxZcOQ
Ideal Elder Scrolls Series: bit.ly/2dM1oWe
What if Skyrim Was Good: bit.ly/2dCxh4o
What if Oblivion Was Good: bit.ly/2dy39rb
Freedom Planet Review: • Freedom Planet Review ...
Bloodstained Ritual of the Night Kickstarter: www.kickstarte...
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Channel links:
Support the Channel: / zhakaron
Zhakaron Chat Server: bit.ly/zhakaron...
News: / zaric
Facebook: / zariczhakaron
Music:
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Site: bausic.my1.cc/
I STRONGLY prefer Morrowind's guild system. You want a promotion? Not only do you have to do work for the guild, but you have to hone your skills. THAT is how it should be done.
yeah. cause nothing is weirder then the arch mage being a 2 handed heavy armoured orc that only knows flames and has 100 magic (or no spells if you have a certain mod or 2)
Morrowind’s guild system was good for how advancement worked. The actual duties you had to do are atrocious and dull. Oblivion did it better
@@monkeman5895 oh god yes, the fighter guild quests are so dull in Morrowind
@@monkeman5895 that's the whole point. And it's only like TWO quests before you're presented with a story
Yeah, and you can't join all of them without some sort of reputation shift for you happening
Sean Bean died even in a videogame, damn
RIP sweet prince.
Sean Bean is doomed to die in every medieval fantasy story that he's in.
Sean Bean cannot survive story without being British soldier. Only way he survives without horrible experience if it happens in good old days of British Empire. If his character is member or former member of Special Air Service he will end up POW and tortured in case of active duty, in case of former member he drug addicted nervous wreck.
***** What is it with Ricks?
He also survives if ge works for NASA
I am the delivery boy of Kvatch, it was foretold that i am letterborn, hero of the post office!!!!
Courier Six would like to have a word with you.
You can post your mail in my Kvatch ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Kvatch delivery boy vs Courier Six
Go and see for yourself! Kvatch is a smoking ruin! We're all that's left, do you understand me? Everyone else is dead!
Disclaimer: I like Skyrim. It's an amazing sandbox to play in. I like Oblivion, it had Lucien Lachance. And then there is Morrowind.
Most people don't know this, but in Morrowind, when you actually want to get a rank in a faction, you need to FIT certain requirements.. Not just quest doing.. But skill requirements.. You could NOT become the Archmage unless you had a level 90 in one of the magic branches, plus being efficient (skill level 50 or above) in 2 more magic branches.
Unlike the Dragonborn, who becomes Archmage knowing only a lesser fireball spell.
In Morrowind, you could NOT become the Leader of the Fighters Guild, unless you killed (!) all three masters of the thieves guild and it's grandmaster!
Unlike Skyrim where you just become a lazy "all and everything"...
In Morrowind, choosing a House to represent, you risked being vilified and hated by the other two Great Houses.. And yes.. The game made you do that choice!
In Morrowind the most embarrassing way was to die by a mudcrab picking at you. And it's chance of happening in the very beginning was really high.
Khajiit and Argonians could NOT wear helms and boots because their physical appearance.
And literally everyone would be racist towards you.. Even your own race. They call you 'n'wah' which is outlander, slave, lowest of all and scum in one word.
I could go on and on.. These little details made Morrowind fun.
TiiaHallibel you don't have to kill the thieves guild masters
You said a few things that aren't true here but generally you are right...
doesn't sound like fun
@@Zero11s people who don't want or need power fantasy would normally find this fun.
@@Zero11s if your idea of fun is murdering everything in sight it for sure wont be fun. Go play Skyrim or Call of Duty.
I should add the Dawnguard DLC too. Uh, so you want to become a direct descendant of Molag Bal through my blood, cool, here you go.
Well you did decide to return his daughter to him (and an elder scroll, how rare are those?) instead of raping and murdering her like any normal vampire hunter.
Yeah but Lewis, you just join the Dawnguard and get shipped off to go and find her.
You go find 'something.' Isran had no idea what it was. And it's fair to think if he had known, he'd have done it himself so he could've smashed her to bits.
Unpopular opinion of mine is all dlcs including Shivering Isle suck
@@momsaid I think that the dlcs are far better than the vanilla game
If feels like it's a Life/Death cycle for Game companies, Bethesda is heading towards a Creative Assembly staleness.
Indy companies become the children that will one day grow up and be like Bethesda and eventually meet the same fate.
Tiffian Ruler I thought that too. Todays indie devs are tomorrow's AAA developers.
It's disheartening because it gets in the way of maintaining a long and lasting genre.
If Elder Scrolls games from here on in start to become stagnated and sacrifice gameplay and plot with the best graphics then it ruins a great story. Be like ruining Tolkien Lore.
Obsidian's become a teenager and it scares me.
We just have to hope that Fallout 4 not winning GOTY and Fallout 76 being reviewbombed had some effect on Elder Scrolls 6.
Companies get big and bureaucrats come in to administrate. Bigger budgets mean bigger financial risk, shareholders start making demands based on market trends. The creative people, the artists who make the games great, naturally hate that kind of environment and leave. Valve is the clear example. The Valve that made Half Life no longer exists. The people that made Half Life great tapped out to do other things.
The reason the Nerevarine wasn't a Mary Sue is because it was doubtful even to your character and your handlers whether there was any truth to the prophecy. Only when Azura starts talking to you is there really any proof to it. You could just be some guy fulfilling the criteria.
Even then, when Azura does officially call you Neravarine you are immediately surrounded by the "failed incarnations" ghosts who died at various points of the prophecy. One of those "failed incarnations" even overcame the incurable blight and made it to Red Mountain. So even when Azura says it herself, you are possibly still just some chump who managed to actually succeed where the previous people failed without any devine intervention.
Plus the game had no level scaling and was great at giving you the impression that you were improving yourself: at level 1, you always were a weakling with few equipements who could get his ass kicked by any thief. When at level 20 you were an unbeatable overequipped badass with optimized skills, a set of legendary weapons, hand-made artifacts and 100,000 gold in your pocket, you felt like you truly had deserved it.
Also, many quests in Morrowind were morally ambiguous and forced you to question your morality, preventing you from playing a morally perfect character.
You hit the nail on the head in this one! I'm 17, and most kids my age only care about badaassery (hence the popularity of Sword Art Online). Everything's about how OP a character is in the beginning. I'm a fan of character development though, and hearing about the storyline in Oblivion makes me want to go back and play it.
i hated oblivion when i first played it my cousin was an asshat and put it on hard difficulty when i was going through the tutorial got 2 shot while blocking. but now its one of my all time favorite games because of the story
I love that in Oblivion you were the assistant to the “chosen one", instead of being the “the chosen one".
Go back n' play it.. Has one of the best soundtracks in gaming.. And an even deeper story, atmosphere and world.
Oblivion is a great game you should totally play it, albeit it might be harder to get used to it after playing Skyrim. Same goes for Morrowind if you haven't tried it yet.
the badassery in sao is really cringy and badly done. I myself enjoy powerful badass characters, but a character can be all that without being a mary sue.
The Emperor from Arena got a more expressive face than the most recent TES games
Another problem with Bethesda games nowadays is that even if you are made head of a group or something ,you have no say in the organization.Its like you have just recieved the title and still are an errand boy for the group.Example:
1.General of Minuteman
2.Dark Brotherhood
3.Head of Institute or Railroad
4.Thane of whiterun etc.
Sometime i feel like its somehow Todd Howard's cry for help.As he may be head of Bethesda and may not have anykind of control or action in the studio.
Another driving factor for Gerralt is in his trousers lol
XD so true
Skyrim came out when I was 15 years old and I absolutely loved it. It basically got me into fantasy in general from there. (Game of Thrones, LOTR, etc.) However, having gone basically backwards through the games (first getting into oblivion and so on and so forth) I have found that I have definitely enjoyed the older games at least as much as skyrim, if not easily much more. While at the same time I was able to get past my initial scrutiny of ESO and start to truly enjoy playing that as well.
While I certainly agree with this videos assessment of Bethesda's direction, I probably wouldn't have played skyrim in the first place if it had been something not aimed at casuals. (I remember at least half the male population of my freshmen grade level being obsessed with it that year)
Hopefully after probably doubling their fan base with skyrim, Bethesda can focus on a game that goes back to to deeper Morrowind type game underneath(story, factions, lore), while still having an action driven skyrim type game on the surface (combat, visuals, ease to get into). As that would have all the hype and what not to get more initial people to buy, while still keeping the existing fans happy.
Just my more positive (hopefully not naive, lol) prediction.
I like how In Arena They actually talk with the Old English language.
Daggerfall had it a little.
Moorowind - Skyrim didn't really have it.
Morrowind featured a quasi-dialect though. Loved all those N'wah's and Muthsera's. Lol
Morrowind featured a quasi-dialect though. Loved all those N'wah's and Muthsera's. Lol
Epicly Proffesional their time moves on I guess. They modernize their language and such
I don't think they speak in old English....
I've never even played Arena, but I can be sure it wasn't Old English. If you understood a single line of dialogue in Arena, then it wasn't Old English. I'm guessing it was probably more like the fake, Ye Olde English which just replaces a few words with ones that weren't even grammatically correct in the past. Maybe Middle English, but probably not.
Geralt will also sometimes do things out of compassion, but he's ultimately a mercenary of sorts.
i can understand how both groups feel, i like to work for my instant gratification
I'm in the world building process right now for a dark fantasy. I'll write a few novels and short stories first, then expand it into video games which will bring the focus back to roleplaying and doing the things these companies missed.
DA:I does it weirdly.
You start out as praised as the herald of Andraste, then later on you find out that you are actually just a nobody who had been at the wrong place at the wrong time, though at that point you already got a name for yourself on your own.
Jani SIr I liked that. Make you think you're the Mary Sue, then rip it right away from you.
Not to mention that you can outright deny those claims and all the others are wrong if you want to. It makes the ï told you so" moment pretty awesome.
+Harry S. Plinkett
Bioware: you're awesome and everyone worships you like a god.
Player: awesome!
Bioware *later in the story* lol, just kidding. You're still technically a nobody.
Player: goddamnit
GiRayne Religion is weird you know.
Alright, I'm convinced. Yeah, it is pretty bullshit that you're just proclaimed a hero right at the start, and then told to do hero things.
Now... having said that: I stand by my opinion that being the dragonborn is good from a mechanical perspective, because I think having a cooldown attack system was pretty good. Also, dragon shouts are fun. But from a narrative perspective, you're right. It sucks.
Thats the problem. These days they build the game mechanics first and then build everything else around it. It would be better if they built everything around the story.
YOu can'T just proclaim the player to be dragonborn at the end, you would get shouts when you have nothing left to do.
***** I ABSOLUTELY disagree... well mostly. It depends on the game you're making. If it is a story driven game first and foremost, then duh. Of course you build the mechanics around the story. But in pretty much every other situation, the mechanics come first period. You're making a GAME, not a book. I'm not going to sit through a story if I hate the gameplay. There is no way around that.
NOW, having said that, there are many, many ways you can build a story around mechanics. So I do not under any circumstance say that mechanics can cause bad story telling. There IS a solution, you just need to figure it out.
In fact, Zhakaron found a decent way around this in his "What if skyrim was good" video. He suggested having most people not believe you are the dragonborn at first, because everyone thinks ulfric is. (That makes no sense out of context watch the video)
***** Uhhh... considering I agree with him for the most part on several fronts... I'd say... no.
Or were you talking to Jani? Because sometimes youtube doesn't add the +Name thing on a reply.
***** Well, considering the fact that 3/4 of the comment is me saying I agree with him, and the other 1/4 is my opinion on something he didn't mention... I'd say... no.
And as for the other comment, that's also something he did not talk about in the video... soooo... still no.
And if that wasn't enough, despite not even playing other TES games, I'm still able to list all the things I think skyrim does very poorly, (armor system, boss fights, main questline, the companions quest line, running around for long periods of time with nothing to do... etc.) So I would hardly call myself a fanboy. Soooo... no.
As someone who falls in Bethesda's target age range, (I'm 17) I will have to say that I like Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena more than Skyrim.
I'm 19 and I think Skyrim is better than oblivion and morrowind
skyrim is trash
Friendshipismagic
Why?
Have you played the other two? Skyrim rarely did anything better than them. Graphics and gameplay, and perhaps the AI and scenes. That's it.
MissyMuffin Yep
i'm 18 and fully understand the mass market appeal concept, the dumbing down of elder scrolls to fit to a bigger and younger audience, and the power fantasy.
This is why Witcher 3 (story heavy, mature game) is my fav game to date. And I played it when I was 16, lol.
While the RPG design philosophies are going towards mass market appeal there are still a few gems that are funded by kick starter or steam green light that happen to squeeze through the cracks and remind of the classic true to name RPGs of the late 90s and early 2000s.
Any names? Desperately want an Old School RPG
Pillars of Eternity and Divinity Original sin are two that I strongly recommend
I can highly recommend Enderal. Just finished it earlier in the week, and the story is the best I've seen in years.
Play torchlight. It is a game from 2009. The story is amazing and it is one fun game. It is also a dungeon crawler.
If you don't mind consoles or emulators, jrpgs from Atlus almost didn't change mechanically since the 90s, there is Bravely Default that reimagined Final Fantasy 5 system in a new package, last year (so you probably heard about it between your comment and mine) Hollow Knight came out (an amazing metroidvania) on PC and is getting ports to handhelds now.
As for more western titles you pretty much got the recommendations in different comments.
(try looking through GOGs rpg library for PC games, it's filled with smaller rpg titles that are targeted towards fans of the classics)
When watching this keep in mind the timeframe of the events that take place from the start of ES:Arena to the end of Oblivion is only 44 years years that means that the Eternal Champion the Hero of Daggerfall the Nevarine and Hero of Kvach could all be sitting in a tavern in Cyrodiil sharing a pint I left out the Last Dragonborn because over 200 years pass from the end of Oblivion to the start of Skyrim
Araedi
EC: Hey guys! Nice job keeping the Empire running! I wish I was there.
HoD: I was just chillin up in High Rock tbh.
N: Azura sent me on a mission but I can't tell you where!
CoC: I became Sheogorath!
EC: ....
HoD: ....
N: ....
N: Damn. Hey do you got any Greenmote left?
CoC: Nah we used it all during one of our insanity orgies. There was cheese everywhere, and damn! The women were amazing!
Seems like Oblivion's Hero got it pretty good compared to the others.
you sir may be one of the few intelligent people in the iternet, a good fan with love for a series yet with your feet down to earth to offer a good and centered yet subjective opinion, kudos and keep the good work
Oblivion was my favorite game story-wise, admittedly I haven't picked up Arena and Daggerfall yet but I slogged through Morrowind, strolled through Oblivion and trudged through Skyrim. In Skyrim you're handed what's your blood-rite, whether you deserve it or not. In Morrowind you (and a government organization) fight to make sure that you live up to your blood-rite whether you deserve it or not, in Oblivion, you're the sidekick. The most awesome sidekick but a sidekick none the less.
I'd argue that Oblivion was the best at telling a story since it rewarded your freedom with power fantasy, the chosen one is your buddy, your superior, but you're the one who can get stuff done and get known around the world.
When I first played Skyrim, I thought it was cool to be Dragonborn. But now, every time I replay it I try to completely ignore it
This has been an eye opener for me. I guess you can say I'm one of those who used to be part of the mass market at first and ended up being with the niche. First game I started with was Oblivion then Skyrim. Then I wanted to know more about the lore and found out about the other earlier games and for some reason, I liked them more. I couldn't explain it until now thanks to your video.
I'm 13, young, but I still love how the old way was in Elder Scrolls, or RPG's in general.
I remember playing Morrowind. I sometimes liked to play as one of the slave races 'cause in my head, it was Nerevar's way of saying 'you shouldn't enslave' to his people. Perhaps he canonically encouraged enslavement, but I'm not a lore beard, so I wouldn't know.
I was a kid. My dad was getting a new Xbox to replace the broken one, along with some new games. One of those games was this cool looking medieval game called Oblivion. This game introduced me to roleplaying. Endless hours and afternoons creating a mage character, who never wore armor, and loved fire, questing and building my fame and reputation. From thereon, I fell in love with roleplaying games, and actually playing a character.
Sweet, Zaric comes to save me from the lethal syndrome of boredom..
I still can't believe I completed morrowind after being hand held by skyrim oblivion fast travel and quest markers. I've still got it completed on my 360. Uhhhh that was some well earned recognision.
"Every Night Elf person says Nerevar guide me" Such heresy, may Elune have mercy on your soul.
Thank Shor for "Live Another Life" and "The Choice is Yours" that allow me to play Skyrim without being Dragonborn. Mods fix everything.
There are still too many problems I have with Skyrim. For that to be true. They help but they can't save any game from critique.
I play as a Nazeem clone,being "Dragon Born" is quite disorientating
No kidding, I only played the MQ once, and I hated it.
you can also just never go to whiteruns jarl and you never have to
21:20 - "Hey I'm an adult and I play video games!" Y'know...congratulations."
I fixed that problem in Skyrim by saving the main quest for last. By the time I was recognized as Dragonborn I was already the Harbinger of the Companions, the Guildmaster & Nightingale for the Thieves Guild, the Archmage for the College of Winterhold, the Listener for the Dark Brotherhood, the Legate for the Imperial Army, the Thane of every hold in Skyrim aside from Whiterun, and a Bard.
You heard the man. Time to start writing and become the gods of a new world.
frankly, as long as Bethesda still gives us modding tools, we can make Elder scrolls whatever the hell we want. We can make it harder, easier, or a completely different game all together. They can make their mass marketed game, but we will make it what we want to play. And arguably do it with fewer bugs and glitches.
I think it depends -- mods can't really fix a bad story and world building. Morrowind's world is always going to be more interesting than Skyrim's, no matter how many mods you throw at it. If you want to make Skyrim interesting as a setting you'd be in Total Conversion territory.
I was including total conversions when I said "mods". And I do agree, the world of Morrowind is more interesting than Skyrim i think just because of the setting.As a lore hound, I find Skyrim the most boring place in Tamriel. And if elder scrolls 6 or 7 takes place in Argonia or someplace with a truly unique biome the game should be more interesting by default. (unless the writing itself is just awful.)
I just shat my pants, I got used to listen to your videos like this one while playing skyrim, and a frame drop happened, and as you shouted "DOVAHKIN" the "KI" part lagged and was like "KIII-I-I-I-I--I-I-I".. So loud xD
Dark Souls is a very good example of a game that isn't a power fantasy.
Jared Bickell an RPG that isn't a power fantasy
Dark Souls is the ULTIMATE power fantasy. Your character is literally the only agent of change in the entire universe. every other entity in its universe is bound into an endless cycle of predictable repetition, and only the PC can effect any sort of change in the world. It's not just a gameplay element either, it's very strongly built into the lore of the setting.
Lachdonin I see your point but there are others like you who have tried and failed and many people expect you to do the same. You always have to earn your victories and you start out as the lowest being you can be. I've noticed this in Dark Souls 3 especially.
Trying and failing doesn't make them more powerful, or diminish the huge importance of the PC in the game and it's setting. In the first two, you are very literally the Chosen Undead. That others tried to do what you do doesn't change the fact that your character is fundimentally different within the world, and this plays out through your absolute power in the game. You are the only one who can change their fate, and the fate of the world, to the point where it is literally impossible for you to fail. Unlike games lime Skyrim, or Mass Effect, or The Witcher, or Divinity or so forth, you can't even DIE in Souls games. They've built in an absolutely unavoidable concept that prevents you from failing in your mission.
Of course, I am not a fan of the Souls games in general. But it's just so blatantly designed to empower that I don't for the life of me understand why people doscribe it as an anti-power trip.
The thing with the souls games is: Although there are those who tell you "You are the chosen one" they do it to manipulate you. Nobody ever tells you the whole truth. You’ll always be just a pawn in another one’s game of chess. All characters in Dark souls have their own goals and Motivations. The Game tells you that you are not the only one trying to achieve the goals of the Chosen one, it even recognizes that there are other player trying to do the same.
The power fantasy in Dark Souls kicks in a the point where you can defeat enemies, that owned you before, when you finally learned how to beat them. It is your own achievement .
In TESVI I want a villain that I can sympathize with; I don't want some asshole destroying Tamriel "just because he can". I want someone with a strong reason for doing what they're doing, and had some tragic life story.
Jebodeiasque You mean like Dagoth Ur?
Where you talked about dying 7-8 times before finding a way is what i love, and its why i start ususally in markarth when using requiem, its a huge challenge that i can overcome, it will just be super difficult and i love that
I wish I found this guy sooner because he is starting to become one of my favorite youtubers. Also with all this power fantasy talk. It's making me think of Dark Souls.
Skyrim is the elder scrolls equivalent of "thats how the mafia works" meme
I can appreciate both there are some things from the newer games that are better ie quality of life stuff and better combat but the good story I can appreciate that's why skywind is gonna be hype
Games these days hold your hand. I recently died like 5 times in Jedi Outcast while trying to figure out where to go. Good ol' Nar Shadda !
i love the super professional way of calling the newest fan boys low iq/children with a simple storytelling palette
All i have to say is thank god for projects like daggerfall unity.
Zaric, I totally agree with you bro. As an "older" gamer myself (early 30's) the rpg series of games have been dumbing down for at least the last decade or so. I'm a huge elder scrolls gamer myself and started with Morrowind and sadly missed out on Daggerfall when it released since I was busy playing games like Chrono Trigger and Hexen (fps fantasy I know) at the time (and before Morrowind, Baldur's Gate). That being said I feel that the old school style RPG's in games began the decline with their introduction more mass marketable games on 7th generation consoles.
In the 1990's consoles ruled in side scrollers, JRPG's, and adventure games. PC's were a market to push niche games like western RPG's or strategy and was an engine for newer 3d graphics in FPS games. When the lines got blurred in the mid 2000's the gaming companies went for profits over product and subsequently dumbed down RPG's and FPS. Not to say like you have in this video that technology and graphics aren't advancing, but it's like everything is made for an ADD audience now rather than story or content.
The hardest thing about becoming Dragonborn and going to the grey beards was actually walking to them because i didn't know horses could climb mountains.
In Redfall they'll almost certainly make you a blade-singer from the get-go.
I do agree with your point here. I could never get into Morrowind I didn't care for the story (maybe because I just couldn't get invested in the plot) but I loved Oblivion and I remember earning the statue for the battle of Bruma where I had to fight and save each and every city from Oblivion Gates to get forces for Bruma. Or Fighting to become the Grand Champion of the Arena dueling Agronac the Grey Prince, or doing what is considered impossible in becoming an embodiment of Pelinal Whitestrake.
morrowind after vivec told them off they still fucking kept attacking me i rarely came into vivec because those bastard guards all attacked me on sight.
also in morrowind LEVITATION POTIONS FOR THE WIN (cliffracer wings and trama root two plentiful ingredients and i used the heck out of that potion) i was heartbroken when in oblivion they banned the levitation effect (out of game it was because of the loading of the cities but it still broke my heart when i discovered it)
oh and in morrowind you are always considered an outsider
(my character a dunmer) "i saved the world from this immortal evil guy and i am the nerevarine AND hortator"
(random dunmer on the street) "make it quick outsider"
"You're exempt from all the rules, but we're still gonna judge you anyway" is probably the most apt description of the Greybeards I've ever heard
Hey bud. As an aging gamer, I really appreciated this one.
When do we get to hear more about your project? Judging by what you say about other games, I really feel I want to get on board with it.
I think the power fantasy is why the Dragon Ball series is so popular. It has a few over powered main characters, but at the same time the show has shown them training to get the powers they have. Like how Goku had to earn his Super Saiyan forms, whilst still being OP
I can't blame them for wanting profit more, but I can't help but feel fairly sad and somewhat surprised more people would want money than to be known for creating something incredible. The world will almost never remember you for simply making money, but that is how business works after all. A good thing for gaming however is how much easier it is to develop games, much of my hope is in indie developers with good intentions, as well as mods for large games that turn the game on its head and make it a new experience. Much like music I think many will have to search if they want a more in depth or different experience.
Great video! Your analysis of the heroe status in the different games is very cleverly done. Unearned recognition and the fact that the game revolves around the main character are indeed at the heart of what is wrong in Skyrim, and to a lesser extent in Oblivion.
You know, watching this video, I realize, I never played Skyrim for the main quest after I got Skyrim on pc, basically, when I could mod it to avoid that stuff, also, speaking of power fantasy, I hated it when you started the dark brotherhood quest in Skyrim and got nearly instantly claimed as Listener, I felt like I'd all but walked through the door and then "OH LOOK! Its the Listener!".
Zaric has just given up on trying to say "Nerevarine" at this point. It used to be "Nevenarine" few months back but now it's just "Ne[incomprehensible sound]rine" XD
Another thing about becoming the mad god you have to defeat a conquerer daedric prince to get it who kills all your guards while your palace is under siege in a epic 1 on 1 fight
I'd personally say that in Skyrim's case the "Dovahkiin off the bat" scenario is more a matter of the game's tone than anything else.
Everything about Skyrim, the Nords and their viking-like culture, and the overall happenings of the game oozes with a sort of...over-the-top vibe. The tone is 'bombastically epic', or that seems to be the intent. I get the impression they wanted things to match up in this manner. If we look at Morrowind we see a 'stranger in a strange land' sort of tale unfold where you have to claw to press against the xenophobia. In Oblivion, things were far more subdued and simplistic and the main character fit to match. Skyrim seems the same way: Over the top hero for an over the top story.
Does it make for a better story? Personally, no. And as pointed out in the video, the levels they hold up the Dovahkiin simply is not ( and likely could not be) recognized by the wider game world. If this trend continues, yes I will be very concerned, but I do appreciate that Bethesda sticks to the tone they are shooting for and generally nail it. Sure, we may not enjoy every story they tell, but I'm glad each game feels they each have their own personality.
I'm fine with it, C-RPG fans were a niche before, and we're a niche today.
Difference is, we can now buy our games on mainstream websites like everyone else!
sean bean's sidekick xDDDDDDDDDDDD
Winterhold was especially disappointing to me. The first mission is awesome, and it makes you feel like you're really learning to be a mage in an isolated college through a simple class about wards. They give you a dorm and set you up with a few young guildmates that are learning just like you, but then all of the sudden you find the Eye of Magnus in a field trip to Sarthaal, and are catapulted through the events of the main quest to suddenly be arch-mage. You, the welp who was just a lowly Apprentice just a few ingame days ago. Who might very well still know fuck all about Magic. Hell, it's even more egregious when you realize that your fellow apprentices ARE STILL APPRENTICES WHEN YOU'RE ARCH-MAGE, AND THEY NEVER CHANGE.
They really add insult to injury when you meet Neloth in Dragonborn though. He's never heard of you or your college (although I'm astonished Bethesda even lets you mention it, all things considered), in fact he just offers you apprenticeship. You're not even remotely respected or noticed in the wider scholarly magical scene, and it was all basically a farce, even though Sovngarde and the Psjic Order both care a lot about what you did and how.
I was pulled In by skyrim but then I went back to play oblivion and morrowind and Im also going to download daggerfall when I find the time. I love the idea of the older games and the freedom they allow. Skyrim is still my favorite, but only because its good for modding. I'm 15 by the way. I was 11 when skyrim came out.
Yes they are basically just taking away the grind that the older games had to give you as you say "instant gratification". It was the longer main quests that I enjoyed about Morrowind and Oblivion.
very well said, as an UX designer I see this happening all around. Look at technology profiling people. Nobody has knowledge other than their comfort zone. Also UX and UI are catering to habituation and never tryign or encourage people to explore new things and preventing people to think. Have you tried the recent Divinity Original Sin 2?
I'd also argue against having to earn titles and high positions in Morrowind. It's mainly a few hours of fetchquests and coin collections, maybe having to do a few quests of a similar nature for a similarily structured faction in between.
I love Morrowind, and see the issues with Skyrim's quest structure... but I don't think either does it right rpg wise.
;)
Morrowind is the one I've replayed the most, but I'd still say Skyrim has the best story overall.The difference is the deeper story needs to be sought out thru books and alt dialog. Skyrim also (i think?) was the first one with visual/environmental storytelling, which I personally find compelling. It leaves more to the imagination.
Sorry for sliding off-topic, but then thats why i love your content. its about the "what if" in games we all love, right?
It's why I like the Shivering Isles so much. once you earn the title of Mad god, people actually realize it. at least in the isles themselves. but for me that's enough
I am younger and I played skyrim first at 11 now at 13 I really respect gameplay and character building these days
Also 1 thing I used to play ton of oblivion when I was 10 year old but when skyrim came out I gave it a try and though where's the rest of it.
so yeah I hope they will return to roots.
+Zaric Zhakaron
When I recently discovered your channel, I saw your videos about Elder Scrolls 6 Wishlist, and how they'd handle Valenwood as a Power Fantasy. I am very much interested in talking about why is that a bad thing? In fact it sounds like an awesome concept. With the games we play, we are inducing into a Power Fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with that.
As examples, we have Mass Effect where YOU were Shepard, and YOU were important, or YOU become the Grey Warden, and have all these important decisions to make.
I'm likely mistaking what is meant, but in RPG's our decisions "should" matter, Player Agency is one of the major reasons we go to play RPG's. If we don't matter, then we've no reason to give a crap about the game world, especially if our actions have no stake in it.
I'm one who comes from Tabletop RPG's, and this principle holds the same. Even in those games, you are inducting in a Power Fantasy of sorts, playing someone you are not, who's more awesome than you likely are, doing things bigger than what you can do (or if nothing else, this character is at least more awesome at it).
So why is Power Fantasy a bad thing? Being things handed to you, when you don't actually matter? That's lame as all hell. However having the capabilities to the prophecy you are given or such, I don't find that a bad thing to be "a chosen one" or being super mega awesome otherwise.
a good example of a project targeting classic player niche markets is the upcoming mmorpg Saga of Lucimia
true rpg are still made not many but there are like pillars of eternity, divinity original sin, shadowrun and the upcoming tyranny
What is a "true rpg", exactly?
RPG's that that are more focused on the role playing i don't really like using that term but i didn't know how to call classic style RPG differently
not really this games are not classic maybe in future
well for my a ''true'' rpg is a game that focus on role playing above anything else and most old rpg does that and modern rpg are more focused on action
allowing you to make a character builds and choices that can influences the outcome of a event or a npc's life letting the player decide the personality for the character
Around 20:00: You are talking about kids and maturity, this really caught my attention.
I think the market isn't necessarily 8-year-olds, but people in the later generations who have less mature personalities generally. I see it all over the place, and some psychologists even talk about this phenomenon.
Some researchers even talk about re-labelling the term "adolescence" as lasting up until the late-20s early 30s. This is the so-called "casual" audience.
But overall I think you make some great points... I particularly appreciate the way you distinguished between Morrowind's and Oblivion's "earned titles" and "earned respect" versus Skyrim's power fantasy approach... even though Skyrim is probably my favorite game of all time.
Personally I get sick of being the super-awesome hero all the time. I remember Divine Divinity, for example, that everyone kept recommending to me. I started off as a couple of semi-important dudes investigating a potential crime... and within 20 minutes I am whisked off to meet the creator of existence (!) to find out that no, actually, I'm the hero who is going to save all of fucking existence. I stopped playing immediately.
But anyway, luckily with mods I can transform Skyrim so I can be *just* a thief, *just* a mercenary, etc etc.
I really hope ES:6 isn't just some power-fantasy fetch-quest dumpster.
another thing that i think was better from a narrative prospective in morrowind is that you didn't feel that you have to rush to finish the main quest cauz there was no urgency to save the world , and if you want to be the hero you have to take your time and earn it
I thought Number Six was the "Legendary Courier"
I love Skyrim as a game, but these reason are exactly why I made up a fan story of Skyrim, so I can mold the power fantasy to work properly. While he is Dragonborn and whatnot, Jorunn's character is balanced out by two major factors. Politics and power. Politics because he must curb his tongue when he has to be diplomatic, which is problematic since he is VERY outspoken, and power not for himself, but others. He's reluctant to tell ANYONE he doesn't quite trust that he's Dragonborn, for fear they'd try to use him for their own gain. Ulfric doesn't find out until Jorunn is forced to use it when retrieving the Jagged Crown. My reason for Jorunn being imprisoned at Fort Neugrad, and then taken to Helgen, was that he was trying to protect his younger brother-in-law from Imperial legion soldiers, as the younger brother-in-law was a staunch Stormcloak supporter, and started a fight. Jorunn also had two reason only for joining the Stormcloak rebellion. 1: His wife and daughter were being held captive by the Thalmor as punishment, and he needed the rebellions support to be able to free them, and 2: Because he felt that , like Eorlund, he'd rather have a fellow Nord tell him how to live than some snooty elf. Jorunn doesn't even BELIEVE in Talos, he's a devout of the old faith, and his Amulet of Talos that he carries has the words North-Dragon, making it associated as an Amulet of Ysmir.
I really like the Kingmaker fantasy more than the Power fantasy, being a Merlin instead of a King Arthur.
khatack i like both..but as far as "power fantasy" goes, I do prefer the "earn your way" method. One game that comes to mind in that sense is the first Baldur's Gate. You get the inkling that you're somehow special, special enough that someone comes to kill you in the very beginning..but you don't find out why until later... the idea of wandering around, sorting out how things are in the region adds an immersion factor. What else adds that is the notion that you can't do it alone.
Wasn't there a scene in Morrowind where you realise that so many other Nevarine came before you only to get easily killed. Once i realised i was only one of many i didn't got this Marie-Sue feeling.
The king from Nilfegard knows Geralt from the events in the books as he is Ciri's father (the events are kinda messed up and are quite long for me to explain but the books are worth a read if u can find a translated one)
I think I could be down with greener locations in the next Elder Scrolls
6:50 "Every Night Elf person says 'Nerevar, guide me'" Ishnu-dal-Nerevar-Adore!
Zaric, what are some things you actually like about Skyrim?
Wasn't the point of the video but you made me nostalgic for Oblivion again and I jsut uninstalled it a few days ago saying to myself "i'm not going to play this again" lol
YEP. I had to come to the sad realization that I wasn't the target audience of Warcraft, and haven't been for nearly a decade. I fell in love with the setting as presented in WC2/WC3 and the TTRPGs released in the early to mid 2000s. I finally gave up on the franchise because it has spent more time as something I don't like than it has a something I did. And so I decided to work on my own projects, inspired by the franchises I love.
Same with Dragon Age Origins And Dragon Age 2 vs Dragon Age Inquisition and the Mass Effect series.
In Origins you were a Grey Warden from the start, a group of the biggest badasses to ever grace Thedas, but then the group was demolished and outlawed while a Blight was going on which only the Wardens can stop, and the 2 remaining were green as grass. You had to earn your title of "Hero Of Ferelden" by slaying countless Darkspawn and bounty hunters, gathering an army, finding legendary ashes, going into the furthest reaches of the Deep Roads, killing an accomplished general in a one on one duel, and even then there was the chance you may not live to gain that title.
In Dragon Age 2 you were a legitimate nobody from the get-go. Your family was running from the Blight but caught up in Darkspawn, and a you would've died if not a convenient dragon swooped in and burned up your enemies. You went to a city of corruption and former slavery, served a year as a mercenary or thief, made some friends, then tried to find gold by going into the Deep Roads and just barely returning alive. Now you're a noble, but the rest of the nobility still looks down upon you as lowborn. You only really gain a title upon saving the city from a band of pissed off Qunari (basically orcs) and killing their Arishok (chief). Even after that the politics remain wary of you, and you are eventually exiled from the city anyway.
In Inquisition, you are initially a nobody, then you get caught in an explosion, get some cool glowy shit on your hands, then deemed the "Herald Of Andraste" (Andraste is basically Jesus for those who don't understand, so this carries weight).
In Mass Effect, you are never a nobody. The first moments of the game after character creation involve 3 people talking about Shepard like he's the badassest of badasses to ever be a badass, and if you read the codex you find out you'd easily lay down someone from Seal Team Six in CQC, and shortly after you're made the first human Spectre, a group of special ops that can take down small armies alone with small arms and are exempt from laws, employed to play the role of judge, jury, and executioner for the rulers of the galaxy.
Spot on lad.
Thank you for uploading. I swear I have made like 6 pc part picker lists for new pc gamers, holy shit man.
While I agree with a bit of the points you bring up, I have to disagree with the age thing there where surveys and census type test done to look at the age of gamers and the thing is is that the majority are still older people it's like a 65/35 split and most gamers seem to be 20-30 something's. So that's why company's are now trying to appeal to kids to get a larger adolescent audience to milk the parents wallets. But the rating systems are there and even though they may not be all that effective I think if we tell parents that they should actually think about what they buy. But all in all if we think about it the older style RPGs are still out there we just need to bring these to a bigger audience and let them see what we enjoy. I'm rambling.
LOL 'save' Kavatch. 😆 And it's already completely demolished and nobody ever gets it rebuilt after you get there.
Zaric! You are the bane of my free time! I thank you for that.
I am 15 and I prefer earning the power instead of instantly getting it in skyrim
God bless the community uncapper mod
For me, Oblivion's storyline was sooo disappointing, regarding the actual importance of the player character, after Morrowind's sweeping and majestic rise to near-godhood. Playing Morrowind right now, in fact. I still haven't ever finished either Oblivion or Skyrim.
Tom Rogers to each his own but there is a definite rise to god hood with oblivion granted you have the shivering isles and knights of the nine expansion ....having played them all oblivion imo is the best elder scrolls game ...so much depth and a true character building rpg
Алексей Волков I did but unfortunately after their time ...my first elder scrolls game was morrowind and then only after I loved that game so much I moved on to arena and dagger fall ...but oblivion was easily the best
@@Calcific9 I like Morrowind and Oblivion for different reasons.
Base game Oblivion isn’t supposed to be a power fantasy lol. The chosen one is Martin, you’re just his bodyguard/best friend.
On the other hand: These days even small indie game projects that _are_ being made for my niche have better production values than mainstream games had back when my interests were still mass marketable.
I mean, it sucks when the mainstreaming happens to a series I love, like The Elder Scrolls or Thief or whatever, and I'd love to see a game with the sensibilities of those older games and the budget of a modern AAA title...but overall there's probably _more_ money and resources being devoted to making games "for me" right now than 15 years ago when Morrowind was new.
ah. The bioware name hurt me :( rip mass effect, oh well
This guys has INT 10.
O my god. I'm taking Marketing class rn so yeah Zaric thanks you just made my grade go up :D.
Very good analysis. Totally agree with you.
In subsequent playthroughs I don't go into Bleak Falls Barrow lol Emil problem solved.