To be fair, the doctors medical oath is to do no harm, if they fail then no harm done as Seven is already dead and you can't harm the dead, success would mean both Seven and everyone else would live. It's a literal case of everything to gain and nothing to lose.
@@Captain_Razor_88 Incorrect. The Hippocratic Oath does not contain the 'first, do no harm' phrase. This misattribution has been repeated over and over yet no one ever thinks to fact check. Hippocrates wrote lots more than the Oath. The phrase comes from his essay "On the Epidemics."
@user-pt2to4pp4c true and if he could have revived her and ask her himself he would have done I suspect by then even borg nano probes could not do the job.
@@thomas.parnell7365 Actually he could have, the probes are frozen. If thawed enough they will repair themselves and repair the host. We see it time and again. Even a dead drone with nanites damaged and "dead" or inert was reactivated in TNG by the proper energy frequency that made their appendages twitch enough and power their functions to start the self repair chain reaction. The Doctor of course didn't know this or he would have tried to revive her. As far as he knows, the procedure they want to do is not any worse than an autopsy.
@alexistaylor969 maybe true would not have had time with challenger hunting them .story would have still ended the same seven would sacrifice herself to give voyagers crew a chance.
@@dbzgtacod4pro906 Funnily enough, Harry became a bit like this in STO during the Delta Arc. Bit less grouchy, but he's still older, experienced, and in command of the tough-as-nails USS Rhode island.
Kim and Chakotay were ride or die kind of friends, they never gave up in trying to find their crewmates and friends. A shame they never gave them development like that again.
I liked Chakotay in the episode when different parts of the ship are stuck in different times. Other than that, he's a nice person but not the best first officer imo.
While Harry's self-loathing is annoying, it's perfectly understandable, and I kind of like how he's become very cynical and blunt, like he just straight up says that Chakotay and Tessa are having sex, catching even the Doctor off-guard! As Robert Picardo commented, Garrett Wang really can act if given the chance to.
The hate really isnt for harry but for the writers and their lack of vision with their characters. They were token minorities. This episode just proves he could have acted if given the opportunity
@@ArcheonW Yeah i agree, he was poorly written. Most of the characters were except for the nameless Doctor. The voyager writers were dunderheads. Some episodes, like ^this one^ were outstanding, but then there's episodes like Fairhaven. It's Star trek not days of our lives. And Endgame? What the hell?? That was like, Management: how should we wrap this up? Writers: Yes. There was just no thought to it at all, it's like they were sick of their own product and just wanted to knock it on the head. I would have LOVED to see Voyager dock, her mighty engines shutting down with a sigh of relief from the crew. The crew leaving the ship looking back at their home and the memories they made. Tom walking off with his arm around B'elanna carrying their newborn baby and being greeted by Admiral Paris who gives an emotional hug to his son and new family. Seven of Nine leaving the ship being uncertain of what her life will be, to have Chakotay hold her reassuringly and tell her he will take care of her. Giving friggin Chakotay a first name!! Kim being promoted at Voyagers welcome home party and getting laid, Tuvok getting the treatment he needs!! They could have had a whole other season after Voyager returned home, have some trouble making Admiral try to bring Janeway up on some sort of charges, perhaps uncovering some questionable actions the Voyager crew took while in the Delta Quadrant . Just being able to see the characters have some closure, not just "Oh look at that, we're home the end"
It’s understandable why they’d be criminals, rewriting the timeline would essentially erase the entire universe as it is. Not death, just completely wiped from existence. I’d be terrified to let them do that. I mean imagine if you were born after an event they rewrote, there’d be no guarantee another version of you would even exist
While true, the changes could range from large to very small. Overall, it would likely be beneficial though. You'd have all the knowledge/tech voyager gathered in the delta quadrant. From Warp 10, to slipstream, to projectors like the caretaker used. Even at the ending of Voyager, it shows that Voyager getting back, brought technology that could defeat the Borg, only made possible by her time in the Delta quadrant. Maybe the federation would have been just fine without all that, but let's not forget that the federations timeline was already effected the moment the caretaker took voyager. So because of what the caretaker did, the people of voyager, and all the people around them, their lives were altered. And you could say that the caretaker was performing essentially time travel, because to even see voyager in order to pull them into the delta quadrant, you'd have to fold space and time.
In StarTrek the old time line still exits. This is to prevent time paradoxes. If you go back and change something the time line gets another branch with the new events while the old runs in parallel. Otherwise the trip back would need to be done without the cause or knowledge why it would be necessary. In this model you would be able to kill your own grandfather and create a time branch without yourself.
@@KarlSanathos It depends on the method used. That is certainly true when it comes to red matter, but other forms due erase the timeline. In First Contact, Picard's crew is only saved due to them being in a temporal wake.
I like how it's just casually implied that the Borg have the ability to communicate through time with each other and this little nugget is never again mentioned or even implied in any subsequent episode.
If the borg were truly capable of that they couldn't be stopped EVER. Imagine when species 8472 incident concluded and all that tech and knowledge was compiled? Instead of losing so many cubes, just send that info back in time. It's S+ tier
@@rinzler9171They can also presumably generate a time vortex any time they want to, going by what they do in First Contact. They could send back whole ships, not just signals. The temporal agents must have them locked down tight, or the Borg of the future must be benevolent (at least one faction is as of Picard season 2, apparently).
My guess is that something like Q preserves the continuity. It makes sense that they could and also still judge what to let happen or not on a more individual basis. Like interesting minor timeline things along thee lines are permissible, especially since they could be even self correcting, but stuff like the Borg assimilating the Galaxy from a billion years ago is a hard "Nope!". No proof of this... just my take.
Now that's love that she'd go "Sure, I'll help you alter history so we might never meet and fall in love." In fact, I think that's exactly what happens, as the final episodes imply Chakotay and Seven become an item.
@TigerBloodBeastGaming we're not sure how history unfolded after Voyager got back. One running idea is that Chakotay was held responsible for all the actions of the Maqui, being the sole surviving senior leader, and would be placed into prison despite the pleads of the Voyager crew members. This may have left Seven to go into the anarchy route.
@@RobertWilke No offense, but does it really matter? Of all the things to hate about Picard (and believe me, I think that show is absolute trash), this isn’t one of them. Voyager’s writers paired Seven and Chakotay out of nowhere, with exactly zero character development behind that relationship. I don’t like NuTrek, but I do not miss the lazy writing behind most of Voyager.
Chakotay is given command of a prototype training ship and is lost in the Delta quadrant. 7 of 9 was denied entry into Star Fleet due to her borg sympathies and wasn’t able to accompany him. Both moved on after that point. Until Q decided to play fast and loose with the timeline and wiggle things to make 7 first officer of the titan. At which point, Chakotay on an experimental ship returning to the Delta quadrant and 7, forced to go by her “human name” of Hanson serving on a middle class science vessel knew their careers would be forever in different vectors. Fate simply does not end with their happy ever after.
Grand theft starship and violating regulations in order to bring shipmates back from the dead seems to have become one of the finest traditions of starfleet. There's certainly a famous precedent.
Doctor is his own man... upon finding out they are wanted for treason and grand theft starship. He says yes sir and gets to work because all that shit is a Tuesday for the voyager crewman at this point.
"Starfkeet found it in the wreckage of a Borg Cube in the Beta Quadrant." I wonder if this was the same Cube from Picard which was in Romulan space (Beta Quadrant) and while not wreckage it was adrift.
Well this would line up with the Starfleet we'd see it become in Picard Season 1. Abandoning the Romulans to a supernova, banning androids, ignoring former borg victims being hunted and mutilated for their implants, etc.
@@ReaverLordTonus To be fair, it's not like they were flying around righting wrongs before. Case in point, the occupation of Bajor. And that was pre-Dominion War. After that, Starfleet had lost hundreds of ships, thousands of officers, and the political situation had changed drastically since the Cardassians were no longer in a position to project power, leaving a vacuum. With this context, it isn't difficult to see that Starfleet would become more conservative when it came to getting involved in situations. Add their previous relationship with the Romulans (even if things were looking up during and after the Dominion War), who were the Federation's first and oldest major enemy (more so than the Klingons ever were), and the likelihood that many Federation members had joined specifically to protect themselves from the Romulans encroaching on their borders, and the Federation's new stance as shown in Picard S1 isn't quite as out of character as it seems.
@@TheCoolCucumber It's literally read the comments section of a clip of any of the old Trek series and not have someone in those ranting off, completely unprompted, about how much they hate the comments about people hating new Trek. I mean, seriously dude... why do all you guys have to make hating on hate comments your entire shtick? If you love the new Trek so much, then simply enjoy it for what it is? It's way easier to not let the stuff you disagree with have any bearing on comments sections of episodes that aired decades ago and are all but completely removed from anything Paramount is making now.
Starfleet would eventually have something of a "Temporal Prime Directive" though I'm not sure exactly when that became official policy. In the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribble-ations" there was a Department of Temporal Investigations in the Federation.
Unless they succeed, and then it doesn't matter! The Relativity's crew could intervene and detain them if they detected the temporal disruption...but they can't be everywhen at once.
Charles Urban There must be another ethical calculation done to either let things slide or pass, depending on the outcome of the changes made, to then therefore streamline the Relatvity’s resources and also their minimal interference risk in correcting timeline anomalies.
It is funny how travelling through time and to another universe isn't that surprising when you tell it to someone in Star Trek because captains keep records of these kind of things and are taught at the acedamy.
@@RobertWilke true. They just aired that episode couple days ago. Maybe when it suits his needs everything else goes out the Sick Bay lol. He did have to swallow 15 years in 15 seconds for a hologram he took it pretty well. And he did seem surprised about a small message and not going back entirely physically. How I miss the days of great threatre actors/writers who grew into their roles. Still one of my favorites..
It's nice to see them all express some character and attitude and not just as functionaries under Janeway's command. Harry's character would have been so much better like this all the time, and Chakotay, too. I'm sure there would be a lot of changes if they were to do it all over.
Jeeze, Harry's pretty edgy in this incarnation lol Probably channeling all the resentment from the RIDICULOUS number of 'Harry Kim must suffer' episodes lol sort of like the O'Brien must suffer memes but without the episodes where he gets to be a badass to balance it out :P
Just had a thought, they didn't have to be in orbit of that planet when they did this, they could have made a run for it and left behind a decoy probe with a message. When the Challenger arrived they'd find it and the message would tell them they discovered Voyager's location. Captain LaForge would have had to at least contact Starfleet to tell them Voyager was finally found so another shilp could be sent, if not investigate the crash site themselves.
I feel like its a huge breach of star fleet security that the doctor will take orders from federation civilians or even worse federation fugitives. I half expected him to argue not being able to take an order from them. Unless harry modified his security protocols, Or that the doctor still views them as officers since he was frozen for 15 years.
He was a sentient hologram so he did not have a rigid rule based algorithm. He could think for himself based off past experiences. Let's say his EMH matrix got wiped out in the accident and they had to do an equivalent of a hardware operating system reset - he would've had no memory of the past Voyager crew expeditions and have likely stuck to his guns by not following what was going on.
Two theories on that: (1) this is how the timeline was "supposed" to go all along; (2) they saw it was some more Voyager-related shit and were like "nope, not touching that one with a ten-parsec pole"
It's interesting. Captain Braxton tells Janeway in Relativity that THIS temporal inversion in the Takara sector was something he had to correct. Chakotay reaffirms this is the Takara sector in this clip. So the question is, what did Braxton fix?
I think their way of changing history or time was the problem It was crude and it wasn't supposed to be I don't know exactly what he fixed or what he had to do but basically you know offshoots of timelines aren't a good thing.
@Intheb0x414 yeah, it was probably just writers being sloppy, but it would have been fun if it was elaborated on in another episode. Timeline messing is so...well..messy as you said.
Ensign Kim, had he been on a proper starfleet ship, and not trapped in the Delta Quadrant, would have been reassigned or discharged numerous times due to his penchant for failure, trouble, etc. The writers certainly made him the crew's recurring redshirt, since they were always in need of one, but the unique situation of the ship made it impossible to replace the dead crewman of the week. Instead, one of the main cast was made into a butt monkey, and it had to be poor Ensign Harry Kim
I wonder if Voyager getting stranded in the Delta quadrant wasn't a blessing in disguise I mean they learned about an entirely new quadrant that they probably would have never have learned about And they came back with a whole lot of new technology
@@cormacmacsuibhne2867 I don't think species 8472 would have ever found Earth because they lived in fluidic space and besides the only ones they were really interested in killing was the borg
Joseph Latourette be that as it may, a misunderstanding is a misunderstanding, and species 8472 apparently thought the entire galaxy needed to be purged and that the Borg were representative of the Galaxy.
@@josephlatourette8329 "Your galaxy will be purged". 8472 would have finished off the Borg in a few months and then wiped out the Delta quadrant in a few years. The Galaxy in 10 (before the Picard series even starts).
*Due to being optimistically pessimistic, sad, depressed & NOT fuckin caring about hurting anyone's feelings, Harry Kim is extremely blunt by correctly saying "they’re having sex".* 3:39 *Besides, look at the expression on Tessa Omond's face when she foolishly tries to explain her connection to Chakotay in a non-raunchy way.*
Wait, they're going to send the info to Seven at the moment of her death. It'd be pretty messed up if she'd survived the crash and lived for another week, and Harry send unless data to Seven as she was freezing to death.
The last log entry on chayotes command console . Was captain Janeway . Voyager served with distinction and valor . What is the meaning of that entry ? Was that a suicide note ?
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space." The likelihood they would've hit a planet is pretty slim
@@Helpertin I thought so. It reminded me of a line from The Nitpicker's Guide to Deep Space Nine: "Space is big. Really big. Really inconveniently big." I'm sure they were referencing the Hitchhiker.
You know I don't think I ever gave Star Trek actors the credit they deserve, because they don't have to memorize regular everyday conversational bits of dialogue, but have to get through entire paragraphs of made up jargon without getting tongue twisted. Lol.
One thing always bothered me; why not target earlier and have them change the trajectory by even a millionth of a degree so that when they come out of slipstream they won't immediately be pulled into a nearby planet? Even if they drop out into normal space, they'll at least be alive and closer to Earth with the ability to repair any damages.
the g forces was going to tear the ship apart. they needed something to slow them down . so...landing on a planet...that they miracuously got out of the slip stream by
When they try the new phase corrections (which still fail), Tuvok mentions that the stresses are tearing the ship apart and they have to land now. However, the chances of materialising inside a star system, never mind close to a Class-L planet (most planets, to my knowledge, are gas giants) are, literally, astronomically small.
Garrett looks much younger today than in that episode. Also, I'm still not sure why Voyager's crew basically abandons Seven in the Picard series. You'd think at least someone on the crew would be there for Seven.
I never thought about this much before, but... They came up with an idea to reset history and (theoretically) the way to do it (the Borg temporal node) but no realistic way to do it (without finding Voyager first, to get Seven's body, so they had enough information on space-time coordinate settings for the Borg temporal node). The idea kind'a presumes from the start, though, that (besides being able to find Voyager, that everybody on Voyager was dead and would have no moral/ethical objections to erasing 15 years of history. - I'm not talking about Galactic/Starfleet/Federation/Alpha Quadrant history at large, like Geordie spoke of defending from the Challenger - What if some/most/all of the crew had survived when the slipstream collapsed? The ship crashes, or survives to limp along at normal speeds and try other technologies - but the crew survives? Chakotay and Harry find them and they've had 15 years of their own lives & experiences & relationships & probably children being born? What then? - Do Chakotay and Harry pull the plug on those lives, that history - for the sake of "all or nothing at all" (and assuaging their sense of guilt)? Which, by the way, is what Admiral Janeway did in Endgame. - Their dialogue... It wasn't "We weren't going to rest until we found out what happened to you, and when we found out you all died - we had plan B". This was done presuming everyone was dead from the start, and not allowing for much in the way of "what if". - I'd even ask if it was realistic to have the Borg tech along without knowing they would need it, but I suppose that once they decided they needed to go rogue, they should steal everything they might need at one time while they were still on the inside. It would make little sense to steal the Flyer, find Voyager, then come back to Federation space and expect to be able to steal the Borg tech from a Starfleet facility.
On the edge of Alpha Quadrant, if the ship had survived, they would have sent a message to Federation space. But no message ever came, suggesting a catastrophic accident occured.
Chances are that that box is at Daystrom station during the events of Picard Season 3. Because in both timelines it applies that “The Artifact” exists.
They found the Borg temporal transceiver from a Borg cube in the beta quadrant, which is Romulan space. Maybe the writers of Picard connected these two events together?
@@Eljacob0 they actually did, Dumbass. As much as you'd like to believe otherwise, the Writers of Discovery and Picard actually DO look at the previous canon for ideas. They just suck at writing.
I would have done this episode concept differently, it was a really great idea that made for one of the best episodes of the show. I would have split it into a two parter, with the first half being Harry and Chakotay living in the alternate future, coming to term with lives wracked with guilt, to then coming up with a plan to save Voyager, stealing the borg tech in an action packed heist and becoming Starfleet renegades. After an intense period of searching and being on the run from Starfleet, they find the planet where Voyager crashed....to be continued. The second episode would be what we got normally. There are alot of things I would have done differently. Like making year of hell a season long struggle, or having more cross-over with the DS9 crew as well. So much unexplored and lost potential on this show, but it was still pretty good imo.
So the Borg wreckage the mcGuffin device they used, is that any relation to the Borg cube in ST Picard that's run by the Romulans. Granted, the time line has changed, but I sometimes wonder.
Because it's hard too show how big things are in a sci Fi show. We have no frame of reference even if they show a vessel in relation to earth. When you put the delta flyer on a back drop of space it's impossible too tell if it's 50 metres long or 150 metres.
Unless the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations was shut down, completely changed policy or deemed Voyagers return vital for the survival of the Federation this should not have happened even in its original timeline, they had at least 5 timeships since this since about 2000 years ago
Anyone ever think about the selfless sacrifice by Chakotay's girlfriend? She going to die, but she knows she'll just blip back into another timeline but she may never meet Chakotay in that timeline. That takes A LOT of loyalty to destroy your own timeline in the off chance you can save another one.
i love how the doctor isn't at all like:
"you want me to defile a corpse"
and is just:
"alright lets do this"
To be fair, the doctors medical oath is to do no harm, if they fail then no harm done as Seven is already dead and you can't harm the dead, success would mean both Seven and everyone else would live. It's a literal case of everything to gain and nothing to lose.
@@Captain_Razor_88 Incorrect. The Hippocratic Oath does not contain the 'first, do no harm' phrase. This misattribution has been repeated over and over yet no one ever thinks to fact check. Hippocrates wrote lots more than the Oath. The phrase comes from his essay "On the Epidemics."
@user-pt2to4pp4c true and if he could have revived her and ask her himself he would have done I suspect by then even borg nano probes could not do the job.
@@thomas.parnell7365 Actually he could have, the probes are frozen. If thawed enough they will repair themselves and repair the host.
We see it time and again.
Even a dead drone with nanites damaged and "dead" or inert was reactivated in TNG by the proper energy frequency that made their appendages twitch enough and power their functions to start the self repair chain reaction.
The Doctor of course didn't know this or he would have tried to revive her.
As far as he knows, the procedure they want to do is not any worse than an autopsy.
@alexistaylor969 maybe true would not have had time with challenger hunting them .story would have still ended the same seven would sacrifice herself to give voyagers crew a chance.
For the record, Voyager was destroyed and the timeline reverted to reverse her destruction 3 times.
So was the Enterprise-D on TNG. “Time Squarded” “Cause and Effect” and “Timescape”.
And dont forget Zion was destroyed 6 times...., Love, Neo
This episode, Year of Hell, and Relativity if I'm not mistaken, right?
@@mngentry What about "Yesterday's Enterprise"? They rewrote the timeline to erase 18 years of history.
@@chinareds54 OH YEAH!!! Forgot about that one.
Its funny how the way they decided to make Harry look older was to give him cooler hair
Interesting too that they made Chakotay look basically like he looked in season one before he colored his hair and grew it out.
I like this version of Harry. I bet the actor liked the opportunity to play the character totally differently and more agressive.
I read that Bob picardo made a comment after the scene to the effect that he could act after all.
It also helps that the sped up track gives his voice a slightly squeaky edge.
Well, after what he experienced, its no wonder future Harry turned out the way he did.
@@Elly3981 Time will do that to people eventually.
@@dbzgtacod4pro906 Funnily enough, Harry became a bit like this in STO during the Delta Arc. Bit less grouchy, but he's still older, experienced, and in command of the tough-as-nails USS Rhode island.
Kim and Chakotay were ride or die kind of friends, they never gave up in trying to find their crewmates and friends. A shame they never gave them development like that again.
Once was enough dyck.
I liked Chakotay in the episode when different parts of the ship are stuck in different times. Other than that, he's a nice person but not the best first officer imo.
That whole crew is ride or die. Humans better step it up if they want to reach for the sky.
While Harry's self-loathing is annoying, it's perfectly understandable, and I kind of like how he's become very cynical and blunt, like he just straight up says that Chakotay and Tessa are having sex, catching even the Doctor off-guard! As Robert Picardo commented, Garrett Wang really can act if given the chance to.
"Joined at the hip" and "stay warm" are a whole different Harry
An episode where they gave Kim and Chakotay a whisper of character development. Kim was actually likable in this episode.
Its his only episode besides Nightingale I believe.
@@mikejohnson3387 ashes to ashes, favorite son, the disease...dam Harry has no luck with the ladies.
I always thought he was likeable. I didn't even know he was hated by everybody until I went on the internet years later.
The hate really isnt for harry but for the writers and their lack of vision with their characters. They were token minorities.
This episode just proves he could have acted if given the opportunity
@@ArcheonW Yeah i agree, he was poorly written. Most of the characters were except for the nameless Doctor. The voyager writers were dunderheads. Some episodes, like ^this one^ were outstanding, but then there's episodes like Fairhaven. It's Star trek not days of our lives. And Endgame? What the hell?? That was like,
Management: how should we wrap this up?
Writers: Yes.
There was just no thought to it at all, it's like they were sick of their own product and just wanted to knock it on the head.
I would have LOVED to see Voyager dock, her mighty engines shutting down with a sigh of relief from the crew. The crew leaving the ship looking back at their home and the memories they made. Tom walking off with his arm around B'elanna carrying their newborn baby and being greeted by Admiral Paris who gives an emotional hug to his son and new family.
Seven of Nine leaving the ship being uncertain of what her life will be, to have Chakotay hold her reassuringly and tell her he will take care of her. Giving friggin Chakotay a first name!!
Kim being promoted at Voyagers welcome home party and getting laid, Tuvok getting the treatment he needs!!
They could have had a whole other season after Voyager returned home, have some trouble making Admiral try to bring Janeway up on some sort of charges, perhaps uncovering some questionable actions the Voyager crew took while in the Delta Quadrant .
Just being able to see the characters have some closure, not just "Oh look at that, we're home the end"
It’s understandable why they’d be criminals, rewriting the timeline would essentially erase the entire universe as it is. Not death, just completely wiped from existence. I’d be terrified to let them do that. I mean imagine if you were born after an event they rewrote, there’d be no guarantee another version of you would even exist
Or if another version of your did exist there is no telling what circumstances you would find yourself in!
While true, the changes could range from large to very small. Overall, it would likely be beneficial though. You'd have all the knowledge/tech voyager gathered in the delta quadrant. From Warp 10, to slipstream, to projectors like the caretaker used. Even at the ending of Voyager, it shows that Voyager getting back, brought technology that could defeat the Borg, only made possible by her time in the Delta quadrant. Maybe the federation would have been just fine without all that, but let's not forget that the federations timeline was already effected the moment the caretaker took voyager. So because of what the caretaker did, the people of voyager, and all the people around them, their lives were altered. And you could say that the caretaker was performing essentially time travel, because to even see voyager in order to pull them into the delta quadrant, you'd have to fold space and time.
@Tiny Whiny Yeah, but I think they cut Kirk some slack when he saved the world and galaxy a few times.
In StarTrek the old time line still exits. This is to prevent time paradoxes. If you go back and change something the time line gets another branch with the new events while the old runs in parallel. Otherwise the trip back would need to be done without the cause or knowledge why it would be necessary.
In this model you would be able to kill your own grandfather and create a time branch without yourself.
@@KarlSanathos It depends on the method used. That is certainly true when it comes to red matter, but other forms due erase the timeline. In First Contact, Picard's crew is only saved due to them being in a temporal wake.
Hey...a "Bonnie and Clyde" reference from the Doctor. That's some Tom Paris influence right there!
At least,I'm not the only one who noticed.
Problem is that they are two males, and Bonnue and Clyde have been a couple ...
@@Rezzatoni How about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid then?
I like how it's just casually implied that the Borg have the ability to communicate through time with each other and this little nugget is never again mentioned or even implied in any subsequent episode.
Because it completely breaks the universe
If the borg were truly capable of that they couldn't be stopped EVER.
Imagine when species 8472 incident concluded and all that tech and knowledge was compiled? Instead of losing so many cubes, just send that info back in time.
It's S+ tier
@@rinzler9171They can also presumably generate a time vortex any time they want to, going by what they do in First Contact. They could send back whole ships, not just signals. The temporal agents must have them locked down tight, or the Borg of the future must be benevolent (at least one faction is as of Picard season 2, apparently).
My guess is that something like Q preserves the continuity. It makes sense that they could and also still judge what to let happen or not on a more individual basis. Like interesting minor timeline things along thee lines are permissible, especially since they could be even self correcting, but stuff like the Borg assimilating the Galaxy from a billion years ago is a hard "Nope!".
No proof of this... just my take.
@@talyn3932 Q tells son not to provoke The Borg for this reason. This is why Q fears Guinan
Harry is so blunt in this timeline, it was very refreshing to see
"they're having sex." He seems pretty pissed about that 😂
Now that's love that she'd go "Sure, I'll help you alter history so we might never meet and fall in love."
In fact, I think that's exactly what happens, as the final episodes imply Chakotay and Seven become an item.
Until Picard ruined all that. Well ruined might be harsh. As that all this is in the Prime universe not OG Canon, Things def are different there.
@TigerBloodBeastGaming we're not sure how history unfolded after Voyager got back. One running idea is that Chakotay was held responsible for all the actions of the Maqui, being the sole surviving senior leader, and would be placed into prison despite the pleads of the Voyager crew members. This may have left Seven to go into the anarchy route.
@TigerBloodBeastGaming No, she was would bi-sexual. Making the betrayal and change of heart even more damaging hahah
@@RobertWilke No offense, but does it really matter? Of all the things to hate about Picard (and believe me, I think that show is absolute trash), this isn’t one of them. Voyager’s writers paired Seven and Chakotay out of nowhere, with exactly zero character development behind that relationship. I don’t like NuTrek, but I do not miss the lazy writing behind most of Voyager.
Chakotay is given command of a prototype training ship and is lost in the Delta quadrant.
7 of 9 was denied entry into Star Fleet due to her borg sympathies and wasn’t able to accompany him.
Both moved on after that point.
Until Q decided to play fast and loose with the timeline and wiggle things to make 7 first officer of the titan.
At which point, Chakotay on an experimental ship returning to the Delta quadrant and 7, forced to go by her “human name” of Hanson serving on a middle class science vessel knew their careers would be forever in different vectors. Fate simply does not end with their happy ever after.
The idea that the Borg can communicate through time introduces a whole host of plot holes…
Can? If, every drone can do this, this eliminates every defeat they could ever potentially have.
@@willdavis3802 Maybe that's why they were so powerful... and it's literally Q that's giving the Federation the plot armor necessary to thwart them.
I like how they managed to age Chakotay and Harry 15 years. Harry actually looks like a man now.
I hope he's not reading this.
@@rotyler2177 I think Garret Wang might something to say.
and they did it without a bunch of ageist derogatory jokes like star trek picard
Still an ensign.
Grand theft starship and violating regulations in order to bring shipmates back from the dead seems to have become one of the finest traditions of starfleet. There's certainly a famous precedent.
The way Kim says "they're having sex" definitely comes off as "I'm still a virgin and was never promoted past the rank of ensign."
Rofl.
Doctor is his own man... upon finding out they are wanted for treason and grand theft starship. He says yes sir and gets to work because all that shit is a Tuesday for the voyager crewman at this point.
Even in death 7of9 still looks reasonably well preserved.
I would have squeezed her Charmin . . .
It's a good freezer.
"Starfkeet found it in the wreckage of a Borg Cube in the Beta Quadrant."
I wonder if this was the same Cube from Picard which was in Romulan space (Beta Quadrant) and while not wreckage it was adrift.
FYI: Timeless is Season 5 Episode 6, not 16. I just spent a minute or two looking for it. 😊
Thanks for this. I see they corrected it, but never acknowledged you. So I say thank you now.
I never got how they found the ship in the end when even Starfleet with all of its vast resources couldn't do it.
It's not that they couldn't, they didn't see a purpose or value in doing so,, so they gave up prematurely.
Well this would line up with the Starfleet we'd see it become in Picard Season 1. Abandoning the Romulans to a supernova, banning androids, ignoring former borg victims being hunted and mutilated for their implants, etc.
Sounds like the communist party usa, democrats of today @@ReaverLordTonus
@@ReaverLordTonus To be fair, it's not like they were flying around righting wrongs before. Case in point, the occupation of Bajor. And that was pre-Dominion War. After that, Starfleet had lost hundreds of ships, thousands of officers, and the political situation had changed drastically since the Cardassians were no longer in a position to project power, leaving a vacuum.
With this context, it isn't difficult to see that Starfleet would become more conservative when it came to getting involved in situations. Add their previous relationship with the Romulans (even if things were looking up during and after the Dominion War), who were the Federation's first and oldest major enemy (more so than the Klingons ever were), and the likelihood that many Federation members had joined specifically to protect themselves from the Romulans encroaching on their borders, and the Federation's new stance as shown in Picard S1 isn't quite as out of character as it seems.
@@TheCoolCucumber It's literally read the comments section of a clip of any of the old Trek series and not have someone in those ranting off, completely unprompted, about how much they hate the comments about people hating new Trek.
I mean, seriously dude... why do all you guys have to make hating on hate comments your entire shtick? If you love the new Trek so much, then simply enjoy it for what it is? It's way easier to not let the stuff you disagree with have any bearing on comments sections of episodes that aired decades ago and are all but completely removed from anything Paramount is making now.
Altering the timeline would be highly illegal I would think
Hence why they are fugitives.
Starfleet would eventually have something of a "Temporal Prime Directive" though I'm not sure exactly when that became official policy. In the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribble-ations" there was a Department of Temporal Investigations in the Federation.
Unless they succeed, and then it doesn't matter!
The Relativity's crew could intervene and detain them if they detected the temporal disruption...but they can't be everywhen at once.
Charles Urban There must be another ethical calculation done to either let things slide or pass, depending on the outcome of the changes made, to then therefore streamline the Relatvity’s resources and also their minimal interference risk in correcting timeline anomalies.
They did say Voyager appears a lot on their temporal scans😁
This episode echoes in my heart. So gut wrenching.
Kim just rips off the bandaid: “they’re having sex”
Probably one of the most vulgar parts of the series I can think of. Ofc Star Trek mentions sex all the time but never so casually. I like it.
A message back through TIME!? - the doctor sounds really surprised, as if time travel and temporal distortions aren’t a common thing
It is funny how travelling through time and to another universe isn't that surprising when you tell it to someone in Star Trek because captains keep records of these kind of things and are taught at the acedamy.
Not in sickbay lol
@@armandoortiz9114 true but the Doctor has had first hand experience. How'd ya think he got that mobile emitter.
@@RobertWilke true. They just aired that episode couple days ago. Maybe when it suits his needs everything else goes out the Sick Bay lol. He did have to swallow 15 years in 15 seconds for a hologram he took it pretty well. And he did seem surprised about a small message and not going back entirely physically. How I miss the days of great threatre actors/writers who grew into their roles. Still one of my favorites..
Right. They obtained the Doctor’s mobile emitter in a time travel episode.
' A borg Cube in the Bera Quadrant.....'
The Artifact?
It's nice to see them all express some character and attitude and not just as functionaries under Janeway's command. Harry's character would have been so much better like this all the time, and Chakotay, too. I'm sure there would be a lot of changes if they were to do it all over.
I absolutely love Voyager but I've always thought a solid half of the main cast rarely get anything good to do.
Had to go and watch it again. I must have seen this episode 15 times by now. Still great each time i watch it!
1 of my favourite episodes especially the end tricorder message from future Harry to Ensign Harry
Jeeze, Harry's pretty edgy in this incarnation lol
Probably channeling all the resentment from the RIDICULOUS number of 'Harry Kim must suffer' episodes lol sort of like the O'Brien must suffer memes but without the episodes where he gets to be a badass to balance it out :P
Oh, Voyager, the Starfleet ship that could never die!
A Star Trek "What if" would have been awesome here.
Just had a thought, they didn't have to be in orbit of that planet when they did this, they could have made a run for it and left behind a decoy probe with a message. When the Challenger arrived they'd find it and the message would tell them they discovered Voyager's location. Captain LaForge would have had to at least contact Starfleet to tell them Voyager was finally found so another shilp could be sent, if not investigate the crash site themselves.
I feel like its a huge breach of star fleet security that the doctor will take orders from federation civilians or even worse federation fugitives.
I half expected him to argue not being able to take an order from them.
Unless harry modified his security protocols, Or that the doctor still views them as officers since he was frozen for 15 years.
Well he acknowledges their authority when he replies:” aye sir..”
He was a sentient hologram so he did not have a rigid rule based algorithm. He could think for himself based off past experiences. Let's say his EMH matrix got wiped out in the accident and they had to do an equivalent of a hardware operating system reset - he would've had no memory of the past Voyager crew expeditions and have likely stuck to his guns by not following what was going on.
a lot of stupid s--t has to happen to make this episode work. Yet another example of terrible writing on this show.
I would think the crew of the Relativity would have spotted this violation of the temporal prime directive and corrected it.
Two theories on that: (1) this is how the timeline was "supposed" to go all along; (2) they saw it was some more Voyager-related shit and were like "nope, not touching that one with a ten-parsec pole"
It's a good thing they didn't introduce an agency dedicated to preventing changes in the timeline later - _oh wait_ ...
It's interesting. Captain Braxton tells Janeway in Relativity that THIS temporal inversion in the Takara sector was something he had to correct. Chakotay reaffirms this is the Takara sector in this clip. So the question is, what did Braxton fix?
I always thought that too. What did he repair?
I think their way of changing history or time was the problem It was crude and it wasn't supposed to be I don't know exactly what he fixed or what he had to do but basically you know offshoots of timelines aren't a good thing.
@Intheb0x414 yeah, it was probably just writers being sloppy, but it would have been fun if it was elaborated on in another episode. Timeline messing is so...well..messy as you said.
Imagine the crew when Janeway recorded that final voice message.
I missed this episode in the show. Damn!!
Ensign Kim, had he been on a proper starfleet ship, and not trapped in the Delta Quadrant, would have been reassigned or discharged numerous times due to his penchant for failure, trouble, etc.
The writers certainly made him the crew's recurring redshirt, since they were always in need of one, but the unique situation of the ship made it impossible to replace the dead crewman of the week. Instead, one of the main cast was made into a butt monkey, and it had to be poor Ensign Harry Kim
I wonder if Voyager getting stranded in the Delta quadrant wasn't a blessing in disguise
I mean they learned about an entirely new quadrant that they probably would have never have learned about
And they came back with a whole lot of new technology
Also if they never went to the Delta quadrant, species 8472 would've killed everyone.
@@cormacmacsuibhne2867 I don't think species 8472 would have ever found Earth because they lived in fluidic space and besides the only ones they were really interested in killing was the borg
Joseph Latourette be that as it may, a misunderstanding is a misunderstanding, and species 8472 apparently thought the entire galaxy needed to be purged and that the Borg were representative of the Galaxy.
@@crazycoolkids00 even so species 8472 would have never known about earth if it wasn't for Voyager being in the Delta quadrant
@@josephlatourette8329 "Your galaxy will be purged". 8472 would have finished off the Borg in a few months and then wiped out the Delta quadrant in a few years. The Galaxy in 10 (before the Picard series even starts).
So they are talking about the Borg Reclamation project in the Beta Quadrant. That's where they got that device from. Hmmm.
I like to think that the wrecked Borg cube in the Beta Quadrant where they stole the tech from is the artefact cube from series 1 of Picard.
2:22 -- via the Borg cube in the Picard serial !!
Holy fuck, continuity
I love Kim’s line here. He’s so casual when he says they’re having sex
*Due to being optimistically pessimistic, sad, depressed & NOT fuckin caring about hurting anyone's feelings, Harry Kim is extremely blunt by correctly saying "they’re having sex".* 3:39 *Besides, look at the expression on Tessa Omond's face when she foolishly tries to explain her connection to Chakotay in a non-raunchy way.*
I love that line because it seemed a little...over the top for Star Trek: Voyager
@@hebrewyisraeliteyahawadahite Awesome Hebrew.
EMD : "A message back in time? How?"
Spock : "Hold my Vulcan beer"
Wait, they're going to send the info to Seven at the moment of her death. It'd be pretty messed up if she'd survived the crash and lived for another week, and Harry send unless data to Seven as she was freezing to death.
He's so famous he's in-famous!
Si El Guapo!
Nice, flash back, Rerun. 😊👍.
Now time to resurrected the Droid. 7 of 9 into my RoBo maid.
The last log entry on chayotes command console . Was captain Janeway .
Voyager served with distinction and valor .
What is the meaning of that entry ? Was that a suicide note ?
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
The likelihood they would've hit a planet is pretty slim
what's that line from?
@@tyranusfan Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Though the odds are slim, it is possible.
@@Helpertin I thought so. It reminded me of a line from The Nitpicker's Guide to Deep Space Nine: "Space is big. Really big. Really inconveniently big." I'm sure they were referencing the Hitchhiker.
Don't Panic.
And yet, the highway had to pass directly through Earth.
A cube... In the Beta Quadrant? Hmm.
The artifact? 🤔
Most likely
They almost cross the finish line too..
One of my favorite episodes along with Year of hell 1 and 2.
7 is still well preserved even 20+ years after Voyager.
Voyager's series finale had a pretty similar plot. It's almost like a remake of this episode with a much bigger budget.
"Wonderful. Out of the Ice Box and into the fire~" XD
For Hellraiser fans, Tess was also Officer Rimmer in Hellraiser IV.
For Hellraiser fans... Hellraiser ended at III, max.
@@darthkek1953 Yeah, I can respect that, but I have a soft spot for isolation horror In space. It's why my favorite Friday the 13th is Jason X.
Out of the ice box and into the fire. I like that.
One of the things I loved about 'star trek' was...pretty much ANYTHING could be solved by...TIME TRAVEL!
The trousers of the cold weather gear have suspenders. Tess puts on the jacket and carries the troos...
1:55 “She looks reasonably well preserved.” Yeah, I’d say that about covers it. 😂
When Chakotay announced he was there to change the time line, we knew he was the best first officer for Janeway 😂
Love the chipmunk voices.
Ah, yes. This script was written during that fabled era when the word ‘infamous’ was still utilized correctly. 😢
OUTSTANDING! A REAL nail biting episode with great depth. Wow! And... GO MIKEY‼️‼️‼️
Didn't kirk find a way to go back in time whenever they felt like it.
You know I don't think I ever gave Star Trek actors the credit they deserve, because they don't have to memorize regular everyday conversational bits of dialogue, but have to get through entire paragraphs of made up jargon without getting tongue twisted. Lol.
One thing always bothered me; why not target earlier and have them change the trajectory by even a millionth of a degree so that when they come out of slipstream they won't immediately be pulled into a nearby planet?
Even if they drop out into normal space, they'll at least be alive and closer to Earth with the ability to repair any damages.
the g forces was going to tear the ship apart. they needed something to slow them down . so...landing on a planet...that they miracuously got out of the slip stream by
@@randomrazr also the very act of coming out of the slipstream the way they did would have killed the crew before any impact.
When they try the new phase corrections (which still fail), Tuvok mentions that the stresses are tearing the ship apart and they have to land now. However, the chances of materialising inside a star system, never mind close to a Class-L planet (most planets, to my knowledge, are gas giants) are, literally, astronomically small.
Was a great episode
Harry is alarmingly attractive in this ep.
"she looks reasonably well preserved"
Garrett looks much younger today than in that episode. Also, I'm still not sure why Voyager's crew basically abandons Seven in the Picard series. You'd think at least someone on the crew would be there for Seven.
because Picard series is idiotic, like Discovery.
Let's see, there's been about a 20 year historical gap from time of arrival to where the series picks up. A lot can happen in that time.
@@oldtwinsna8347 Yep. Fair number would be Admirals, or Captains themselves, or even have died when the Narada wiped out the Relief fleet.
Because she's hot and they're not hot enough
Budget
I never thought about this much before, but...
They came up with an idea to reset history and (theoretically) the way to do it (the Borg temporal node) but no realistic way to do it (without finding Voyager first, to get Seven's body, so they had enough information on space-time coordinate settings for the Borg temporal node). The idea kind'a presumes from the start, though, that (besides being able to find Voyager, that everybody on Voyager was dead and would have no moral/ethical objections to erasing 15 years of history.
- I'm not talking about Galactic/Starfleet/Federation/Alpha Quadrant history at large, like Geordie spoke of defending from the Challenger -
What if some/most/all of the crew had survived when the slipstream collapsed? The ship crashes, or survives to limp along at normal speeds and try other technologies - but the crew survives? Chakotay and Harry find them and they've had 15 years of their own lives & experiences & relationships & probably children being born? What then?
-
Do Chakotay and Harry pull the plug on those lives, that history - for the sake of "all or nothing at all" (and assuaging their sense of guilt)? Which, by the way, is what Admiral Janeway did in Endgame.
-
Their dialogue... It wasn't "We weren't going to rest until we found out what happened to you, and when we found out you all died - we had plan B". This was done presuming everyone was dead from the start, and not allowing for much in the way of "what if".
-
I'd even ask if it was realistic to have the Borg tech along without knowing they would need it, but I suppose that once they decided they needed to go rogue, they should steal everything they might need at one time while they were still on the inside. It would make little sense to steal the Flyer, find Voyager, then come back to Federation space and expect to be able to steal the Borg tech from a Starfleet facility.
On the edge of Alpha Quadrant, if the ship had survived, they would have sent a message to Federation space. But no message ever came, suggesting a catastrophic accident occured.
he confronted the brutal borg alone in Pikard's beloved Enterprise E
3:17 The reverence in her voice...
And now the actors are as old as they were portrayed as.
Chances are that that box is at Daystrom station during the events of Picard Season 3. Because in both timelines it applies that “The Artifact” exists.
so, the doctor was ok with violating starfleet orders as well and joined the wanted fugitives
@@TheCoolCucumber I forgot much since that decade but thinking that officers were poor at following rules including prime directives
"Wonderful...out of the icebox and into the fire" LMAO
Interplexing beacon.
They found the Borg temporal transceiver from a Borg cube in the beta quadrant, which is Romulan space. Maybe the writers of Picard connected these two events together?
Lol yea right
@@Eljacob0 they actually did, Dumbass. As much as you'd like to believe otherwise, the Writers of Discovery and Picard actually DO look at the previous canon for ideas. They just suck at writing.
I would have done this episode concept differently, it was a really great idea that made for one of the best episodes of the show.
I would have split it into a two parter, with the first half being Harry and Chakotay living in the alternate future, coming to term with lives wracked with guilt, to then coming up with a plan to save Voyager, stealing the borg tech in an action packed heist and becoming Starfleet renegades. After an intense period of searching and being on the run from Starfleet, they find the planet where Voyager crashed....to be continued.
The second episode would be what we got normally.
There are alot of things I would have done differently.
Like making year of hell a season long struggle, or having more cross-over with the DS9 crew as well.
So much unexplored and lost potential on this show, but it was still pretty good imo.
So the Borg wreckage the mcGuffin device they used, is that any relation to the Borg cube in ST Picard that's run by the Romulans. Granted, the time line has changed, but I sometimes wonder.
But it was a BRIGHT RED MacGuffin.
Considering not everything in the timeline changes, good chance it is in fact the same cube.
It's like herding chickens 🐔
Why did the Delta Flyer always look bigger on the inside than the outside ?
Because... because... were these sets built for the damn Rio Grande?
Hammerspace.
Gallefreyan shipbuilding.
Because it's hard too show how big things are in a sci Fi show. We have no frame of reference even if they show a vessel in relation to earth. When you put the delta flyer on a back drop of space it's impossible too tell if it's 50 metres long or 150 metres.
Same reason why the size of the Defiant kept changing ;-) .
So did I!
voyager 👌👌😊
Unless the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations was shut down, completely changed policy or deemed Voyagers return vital for the survival of the Federation this should not have happened even in its original timeline, they had at least 5 timeships since this since about 2000 years ago
Hey, what's a little treason among friends, eh?
Kirk would know a thing or two about that, certainly.
I love this version of Harry Kim.
Doctor should be unwilling to obey
Kim looks like Bolo Yeung here :) Too bad he couldn't have this hair style all the time.
Harry Kim's best episode.
I like this new Harry 😅
Remember children, using time travel tae alter the past is always wrong, until it isn't.
15 years and he’s STILL an Ensign. 😂
Now this wouldn't be a Time Heist, would it?
Anyone ever think about the selfless sacrifice by Chakotay's girlfriend? She going to die, but she knows she'll just blip back into another timeline but she may never meet Chakotay in that timeline. That takes A LOT of loyalty to destroy your own timeline in the off chance you can save another one.
is that what joined at the hip means? Everything in the universe suddenly makes sense now.
Holy shit, Voyager foreshadows Picard. "wreckage of a borg cube in the Beta quadrant"
Maybe or it's just coincidence. It can't be the Alpha Quadrant so the Beta Quadrant was the obvious choice.
@@Paulafan5 why not the alpha quadrant? Most battles between the borg and the federation have occured in the alpha quadrant.
@@DavidiusViajelous Most, but not all. And the Transwarp Network is actually a lot more entwined into the Beta quadrant.