When you look for a "new, updated" reference you might consider Honeck. Among its many virtues, I found it utterly terrifying. Imagine being in a wheelchair in an open field seeing 100,000 Mongol cavalry coming at you. That's the Honeck B9, IMNSHO. (But, yes, Karajan did at least 3 terrific B9s also)
Hello! I was recently thinking about that many videos about solo instruments often have a popular theme, that is "which piece is the hardest to play"... So I thought, could you do a list of the most difficult orchestral pieces to play in the standard repertoire? Pieces that are hard technically for the instruments, but also pieces where it is difficult to get the right balances between the instruments... or pieces that few conducters seem to interpret right and make their orchestra interpret it right and so on... I'm sure there are many aspects to this. I would be very interested to hear your experiences in which pieces are difficult to get right.
I would nominate the Giuline /VPO 1988 recording as “ new” reference recording. It is absolutely glorious and I think most Bruckner lovers of our generation would consider it as a reference
Totally agree. It’s been a blessing and curse that Giulini/Vienna is my imprint recording. There is a grandeur and atmosphere to Vienna’s playing in that recording that is unmatched.
No, it's only a short time after the Karajan came out. I love the performance too, but it's not a reference recording, especially as it splits loyalties with his earlier Chicago recording.
Exactly right. I was going to say the same. CMG really gave the work the monumental treatment it deserved. He went for everything, and happily, both the orchestra & engineers abetted him. Excellent as his other VPO Bruckner recordings are, neither is on the level of his 9th. Something got into him. Afterward, that is, come the 90s, he began to decline. Anyway, thanks for mentioning this stupendous recording. (The Karajan is excellent, too!)
@@DavesClassicalGuide Why is Giulini disqualified for "splitting loyalties" with his earlier Chicago recording, while Karajan is not despite having recorded it earlier in 1966?
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was going to suggest the Abbado VPO version might qualify, as I think it's awesome, but then I looked it up on Classics Today and saw you didn't care for it. (mostly because it was miced too close? I didn't hear that at all. but oh well.) But I also saw that the three reference recordings listed in that review were "VPO/Giulini (DG), Jochum (EMI), Skrowaczewski" -- not the Karajan. I will say this whole analysis of reference recordings is interesting but "meta" in the extreme -- a review of reviews of reviews. I'm also noticing that although you say you are informing us of the consensus pick, you have yet to cite or mention a single other reviewer or publication as an example or support for your thesis. Not saying I don't believe you, I think it just might add some color and details to mention examples.
I have Karajan's and Jochum's (EMI) Bruckner's 9th and delightfully happy with both. It is music to hear while staring at mountains. (I know what you mean about Osbourne pushing anything by Karajan. They really needed to get a room)
A great one, indeed. I am proud to say I have it and love it. Jochum, Wand, Giulini (Chicago)...I can not pick a fav. Owning some Bruckner 9s is a nice vice.
Jochum with the BPO, from '65, also on DG, is stunning. But I always thought the Karajan '66 was the reference recording, although it is so close to the '75 rendition that it is a toss-up.
Speaking of completing..did you see that Turandot got another new ending. Washington opera with video game composer Christopher Ting. I haven't read the reviews yet..but can only imagine
I agree with this recording's pedigree as a reference in the Bruckner 9 but, like you I appreciate and favor other recordings as slightly superior : Jochum/EMI, Mehta/Decca, Giulini/DG, to name a few. I got the Karajan/DG LP shortly after purchasing his BPO performance of the Bruckner 8 on LP (also DG). For me his DG recordings of Bruckner 4, 7, 8, and 9 with the BPO are uniformly excellent Bruckner performances that represent some of Karajan's best work from the 1970's. FYI this Bruckner 9 was part of a DG Panorama CD two-fer that also included the Bruckner 4.
As a consumer I have to resort to recommendations from reviewers as to the merits of recordings. Sometimes I might hear a performance on the radio that I would like to purchase but auditioning a recording takes time, music being a temporal art.
Is there any case to be made that that first reference recording was Bruno Walter,Columbia Synphony(late 1950's) which was then superseded by your choice of Karajan(1970's)?
Dave's reference choice is certainly the most balanced one in terms of all the elements present to make a compelling & accessible Bruckner 9. Karajan delivers the goods extremely well in common with most of his excellently recorded Bruckner on DG from the 1970's except the 6th where he misfires & the rather unfortunately overblown final moments of the 5th. And you'll never hear the Berliners play better Bruckner than on the majority of this particular cycle, including the rival ones Jochum did for his earlier DG cycle (his later Dresden EMI set is much more interesting in every way). As a couple of others have mentioned here a potential modern contender must surely be Manfred Honeck. Whether it's the Pittsburgh Reference studio or NDR live on TH-cam recording is a matter of opinion. However, I can personally testify that having just recently heard him do it live with the Philharmonia Orchestra in London last week, from my front row seat those Mongol Hordes charged & mashed me into the ground well & proper. It's a staggering interpretation whether live or recorded with superb insights from a masterful conductor. A truly terrifying gothic horror performance that left me shaken & speechless, notwithstanding the tranquil conclusion to the adagio.
Bruckner 9 is a harrowing work, not at al consoling except perhaps for the radiant coda of III which recalls the opening of his Seventh Symphony, I agree with you, Dave, that Jochum/EMI communicates this disconsolate message most effectively. By comparison, Karajan II, despite its many beauties, seems just a bit slick. But I confess that I haven't heard it that often. I am also of the opinion that the symphony is complete as it stands. Bruckner may have had a hard time with the finale because he failed to see the work did not need one.
For me, the 'ninth' is finished. After the finale of the eighth, there was no further finale possible for him. His sketches as well as the attempts to combine them into a final movement were in vain.
It sounds perfect as is. So what if it does not have four movements? It makes sense as is,, it has a scherzo where there should be one. Why does it need to be finished?
William Carragan gets very offended when I make dismissive, public comments about the various attempts to 'complete' the finale to Bruckner 9. But I'm sorry, I just think that what material exists in Bruckner's own hand, is very subpar to the rest of the symphony. Worse, I think it's absurd for anyone to assume they can compose a final peroration and/or coda for the finale that would be representative of what Bruckner would have done. It's like Schubert's ''Unfished' Symphony; the work is perfect as it stands. Leave it alone.
No, he isn‘t, but not every recording from him is superb. But some are - do you remember him conduct La Bohème with Pavarotti? Thats evidence enough, i think.
I have a live performance of Karajan conducting Bruckner 9 with Vienna released as part of their 150 box- dating from 1976. It is stupendous. . I have about 15 recordings of the 9th -- in fact, for 4 months of this year I listened to all of them non-stop in prepartion for Most and Vienna playing it here in Palm Beach this past April. (they were excellent). I considered it the best in my collection. I was not even award of this Berlin Phil recording, which I just purchased.
@pianostream8312 Off-topic minor dissent. I love Karajan's Decca Tosca but have never liked that Boheme despite its classic status. I've played a number of times but it always comes across to me as heavy, thick and inflated. Nothing to do with tempi, because I love Beecham and Serafin, both on the slower side. Solti on RCA also missed the Boheme boat.
When you look for a "new, updated" reference you might consider Honeck. Among its many virtues, I found it utterly terrifying. Imagine being in a wheelchair in an open field seeing 100,000 Mongol cavalry coming at you. That's the Honeck B9, IMNSHO. (But, yes, Karajan did at least 3 terrific B9s also)
For Honeck fans (like me) an excellent live Bruckner 9, done recently with the NDR Elbphilharmonie, is available on the TH-cam NDR Klassik channel.
Hello! I was recently thinking about that many videos about solo instruments often have a popular theme, that is "which piece is the hardest to play"... So I thought, could you do a list of the most difficult orchestral pieces to play in the standard repertoire? Pieces that are hard technically for the instruments, but also pieces where it is difficult to get the right balances between the instruments... or pieces that few conducters seem to interpret right and make their orchestra interpret it right and so on... I'm sure there are many aspects to this. I would be very interested to hear your experiences in which pieces are difficult to get right.
I would nominate the Giuline /VPO 1988 recording as “ new” reference recording. It is absolutely glorious and I think most Bruckner lovers of our generation would consider it as a reference
Totally agree. It’s been a blessing and curse that Giulini/Vienna is my imprint recording. There is a grandeur and atmosphere to Vienna’s playing in that recording that is unmatched.
No, it's only a short time after the Karajan came out. I love the performance too, but it's not a reference recording, especially as it splits loyalties with his earlier Chicago recording.
Exactly right. I was going to say the same. CMG really gave the work the monumental treatment it deserved. He went for everything, and happily, both the orchestra & engineers abetted him. Excellent as his other VPO Bruckner recordings are, neither is on the level of his 9th. Something got into him. Afterward, that is, come the 90s, he began to decline. Anyway, thanks for mentioning this stupendous recording. (The Karajan is excellent, too!)
@@DavesClassicalGuide Why is Giulini disqualified for "splitting loyalties" with his earlier Chicago recording, while Karajan is not despite having recorded it earlier in 1966?
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was going to suggest the Abbado VPO version might qualify, as I think it's awesome, but then I looked it up on Classics Today and saw you didn't care for it. (mostly because it was miced too close? I didn't hear that at all. but oh well.) But I also saw that the three reference recordings listed in that review were "VPO/Giulini (DG), Jochum (EMI), Skrowaczewski" -- not the Karajan. I will say this whole analysis of reference recordings is interesting but "meta" in the extreme -- a review of reviews of reviews. I'm also noticing that although you say you are informing us of the consensus pick, you have yet to cite or mention a single other reviewer or publication as an example or support for your thesis. Not saying I don't believe you, I think it just might add some color and details to mention examples.
Sometimes things are popular because they are great. This is one such case.
The Karajan quote demonstrates his skill as a marketer.
That's the recording that got me into Bruckner - a two dollar used LP at an outdoor market, about a year ago. It's a great performance.
I have Karajan's and Jochum's (EMI) Bruckner's 9th and delightfully happy with both. It is music to hear while staring at mountains. (I know what you mean about Osbourne pushing anything by Karajan. They really needed to get a room)
A great one, indeed. I am proud to say I have it and love it. Jochum, Wand, Giulini (Chicago)...I can not pick a fav. Owning some Bruckner 9s is a nice vice.
I could have sworn you'd have said the Simon Rattle. 😉
Sure! and afterwards the gergiev Bruckner cycle 🤣
Even worst, Christian Thielemann. Everyting he does is so homogenized.
@@janektreiber9457 Is there a potential series for "anti-reference recordings", perhaps? Ones that _everyone_ knew, back in the day, to avoid?!
@@dizwell We should ask Dave @DavesClassicalGuide to do an anti-list :D
@@eddihaskell Because he is a protestant, and Bruckner was catholic.
Jochum with the BPO, from '65, also on DG, is stunning. But I always thought the Karajan '66 was the reference recording, although it is so close to the '75 rendition that it is a toss-up.
Speaking of completing..did you see that Turandot got another new ending. Washington opera with video game composer Christopher Ting. I haven't read the reviews yet..but can only imagine
I agree with this recording's pedigree as a reference in the Bruckner 9 but, like you I appreciate and favor other recordings as slightly superior : Jochum/EMI, Mehta/Decca, Giulini/DG, to name a few. I got the Karajan/DG LP shortly after purchasing his BPO performance of the Bruckner 8 on LP (also DG). For me his DG recordings of Bruckner 4, 7, 8, and 9 with the BPO are uniformly excellent Bruckner performances that represent some of Karajan's best work from the 1970's.
FYI this Bruckner 9 was part of a DG Panorama CD two-fer that also included the Bruckner 4.
DGG is releasing Karajan's Bruckner cycle again on vinyl for 300 €. Is that worth it???
Want to buy stock in the Penn Central Railroad?
As a consumer I have to resort to recommendations from reviewers as to the merits of recordings. Sometimes I might hear a performance on the radio that I would like to purchase but auditioning a recording takes time, music being a temporal art.
Yup. Agree with that one . not a Karajan fan by any means, but he connected with that particular work. And it's fab...👍
Is there any case to be made that that first reference recording was Bruno Walter,Columbia Synphony(late 1950's) which was then superseded by your choice of Karajan(1970's)?
No, I really don't think so.
Dave's reference choice is certainly the most balanced one in terms of all the elements present to make a compelling & accessible Bruckner 9. Karajan delivers the goods extremely well in common with most of his excellently recorded Bruckner on DG from the 1970's except the 6th where he misfires & the rather unfortunately overblown final moments of the 5th. And you'll never hear the Berliners play better Bruckner than on the majority of this particular cycle, including the rival ones Jochum did for his earlier DG cycle (his later Dresden EMI set is much more interesting in every way). As a couple of others have mentioned here a potential modern contender must surely be Manfred Honeck. Whether it's the Pittsburgh Reference studio or NDR live on TH-cam recording is a matter of opinion. However, I can personally testify that having just recently heard him do it live with the Philharmonia Orchestra in London last week, from my front row seat those Mongol Hordes charged & mashed me into the ground well & proper. It's a staggering interpretation whether live or recorded with superb insights from a masterful conductor. A truly terrifying gothic horror performance that left me shaken & speechless, notwithstanding the tranquil conclusion to the adagio.
Yes, I was at that concert too. It was remarkable
I have been pretty good at guessing these, but not here. I guessed Jochum/Berlin. I guess he did not get the respect Karajan did.
Bruckner 9 is a harrowing work, not at al consoling except perhaps for the radiant coda of III which recalls the opening of his Seventh Symphony, I agree with you, Dave, that Jochum/EMI communicates this disconsolate message most effectively. By comparison, Karajan II, despite its many beauties, seems just a bit slick. But I confess that I haven't heard it that often. I am also of the opinion that the symphony is complete as it stands. Bruckner may have had a hard time with the finale because he failed to see the work did not need one.
For me, the 'ninth' is finished. After the finale of the eighth, there was no further finale possible for him. His sketches as well as the attempts to combine them into a final movement were in vain.
It sounds perfect as is. So what if it does not have four movements? It makes sense as is,, it has a scherzo where there should be one. Why does it need to be finished?
William Carragan gets very offended when I make dismissive, public comments about the various attempts to 'complete' the finale to Bruckner 9. But I'm sorry, I just think that what material exists in Bruckner's own hand, is very subpar to the rest of the symphony. Worse, I think it's absurd for anyone to assume they can compose a final peroration and/or coda for the finale that would be representative of what Bruckner would have done. It's like Schubert's ''Unfished' Symphony; the work is perfect as it stands. Leave it alone.
In my modest opinion Karajan is overrated. I prefer Jochum, Wand and Celibidache
No, he isn‘t, but not every recording from him is superb. But some are - do you remember him conduct La Bohème with Pavarotti? Thats evidence enough, i think.
Actually, I never listen to Karajan recordings. I don't like his style and I despise his involvement in the Nazi cultural scene.
I have a live performance of Karajan conducting Bruckner 9 with Vienna released as part of their 150 box- dating from 1976. It is stupendous. . I have about 15 recordings of the 9th -- in fact, for 4 months of this year I listened to all of them non-stop in prepartion for Most and Vienna playing it here in Palm Beach this past April. (they were excellent). I considered it the best in my collection. I was not even award of this Berlin Phil recording, which I just purchased.
For me, Karajan always wanted to be too perfect.
@pianostream8312 Off-topic minor dissent. I love Karajan's Decca Tosca but have never liked that Boheme despite its classic status. I've played a number of times but it always comes across to me as heavy, thick and inflated. Nothing to do with tempi, because I love Beecham and Serafin, both on the slower side. Solti on RCA also missed the Boheme boat.