I remember Abbado calling himself a perfectionist. No better modern day-ish conductor for Brahms then. Especially when they both always put the music first and took really advantage of a great orchestra. Something similar but not shared then here? Well, I think that we can all live with artists putting their craft and professionalism first. For Abbado himself it was indeed his crowning achievement, period
Levine was a pupil of Szell and many of you know.....I played for him a couple of times as a student at the Cleveland Institute of Music...he was a remarkably clear conductor even at that early time. I was sor of in awe of him and probably didnt play to my best abilities for him even as a grad student.....but his conducting at the time was no nonsense...clear as a bell......and did not have the mannerisms I saw during his Met era!
Two points of disagreement: 1) the quality of his Brahms recording alone entitles his Brahms cycle to be a modern reference recording. 2) His alleged sexual misconduct was never tried in a court of law, and he won a defamation suit against one of his accusers. If these allegations were not so salaciously and continuously reported, we could restore his recordings to their rightful musical place of honor.
I've just heard Levine's rendition of Brahms' 3rd and I'm still recovering from the impression. So beautifully phrased, so many nuances. And a magical effect: the instruments, the strings in particular came across as human voices performing in an opera.
I didn't hear either of Levin's cycles until watching your video on the cycles but both are in my top five Brahms cycles. Each time I listen, there's that awful context and I don't know if that will ever fade for me. In fact, there are a lot of Levine recordings I find remarkable. Abbado's Berlin cycle is spectacular and understandably is the reference. Of course, I also love the Mackerras cycle on Telarc.
Abbado's first recording of the Brahms Symphony No. 3 with the Staatskapelle Dresden is even more wonderful than the Berlin recording - a 'desert island' Brahms recording.
His Symphony No. 2 with Berlin from that early cycle is my favourite version of that work, it's better and more exciting than the later one in my view (and recorded in the Jesus-Christus Kirche rather than the less pleasant Philharmonie).
Dave, have you seen that the Decca Complete Sawallisch just went out on April? There’s also the Warner Symphonic, lieder and choral works ready for pre-sale, coming out on June. I’d guess that a Warner opera would be coming too in the future. What is your view on which would be the best set of those?
Wonderful cycle. In my opinion the best 4th! My first time with Abbado and Berliner was in Napoli, more than 30 years ago. Wonderful, exciting Brahms first!!!
My favourite 'modern' Brahms cycle is Levine's. My go-to cycles remain Walter (NY or California), Jochum (either Berlin or London Phil--better orchestra in Berlin, stereo sound in London) & Sanderling (Dresden!) I also like the interesting extremely flexible approach of Abendroth in Leipzig (adequate late 40's radio quality sound).
Most of the symphonic cycles with Walter and the Columbia (psuedo) Symphony Orchestra on Columbia in Stereo is OUTSTANDING.....ESPECIALLY Walter's Brahms 4th
I often hear you say that many conductors have blown the 3rd. I’m hoping you will give us a video with more details of this history. I’ve listened to your Stokowski video, but I would like to hear about the failures of other conductors. Thank you.
Hello Dave, I completely agree with everything you say about Abbado and Brahms-how well suited his approach of “sweating the details” (as you put it in your Brahms cycle video) is for Brahms. The only difference was that some of the first recordings I ever heard of his were his London Mendelssohn cycle (which is also great) and this Brahms cycle, so I’ve been an Abbado fan ever since! I also like at least one of his Verdi Requiems. I also remember hearing an amazing Dvorak tone poem on the radio many years ago (I don’t remember which one). So maybe it’s just the fact that the repertoire I’m most interested in finds him at his best? Perhaps at some point I will hear the “patchiness” you describe but so far have not encountered it very much, except perhaps in some of his Mahler, which I was expecting to like more than I did. Anyway, I think you are absolutely spot on about the Brahms. It really is the new benchmark. And I’m always grateful for your advocacy of the Levine cycles-I prefer the Vienna because of the orchestra’s passionate and voluptuous sound. I did not know them until you mentioned them and I’ve enjoyed them ever since-especially Vienna. But Abbado with the great choral couplings and Berlin is just so good. I guess for me a great Brahms and Mendelssohn (not to mention his Schubert) conductor is a great conductor! maybe not as versatile as some?
I agree this is an amazing set. I just wish the recoded sound wasn’t so reverberant. You lose a bit of clarity. I bought this set after I listened to Abbado’s Academic Festival Overture. But when I played the others, I remember being bitterly disappointed by how mushy and blurry the textures were. Sure enough, the Academic Festival Overture was recorded earliest of all in a different venue. I forget where. But the rest were recorded later in the Philharmonie I believe. Anyway, I still put up with it and sort of got used to it. I do love the interpretations. I love that Abbado doesn’t take the exposition repeat in the first. And he plays it fast. He also doesn’t do much speeding up in the coda of the second symphony. I think it is even more exciting than versions that do speed up. Which defies logic. And the couplings are fantastic. I do think this is the highest quality Brahms but just wish they recorded it in a less reverberant venue.
In terms of new updated reference recordings, has the reference recording for Appalachian Spring shifted from an older "big orchestra" version to the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recording of the chamber version?
I love these performances. I wanted to offer some thoughts about their reference status. Musical criticism, at least initially, has given both Chailly's cycle and Rattle's cycle similar immediate acclaim. Chailly's in particular seems to be a firm recommendation in many quarters, despite you finding it less than ideal. However, as time has worn on, the consistent availability and name cachet of the Abbado cycle has ensured its place among the significant cycles, while it seems to be consistently recommended from a wide variety of sources in "best of" lists. Meanwhile, the Rattle cycle seems to have fallen by the wayside, and the Chailly is increasingly seen as a "modern" outlook on the works that may not appeal as the one and only cycle to have. I don't know if this is also your view, or if I have characterised the situation correctly or not.
The one I thought would be a shoe-in did not get a mention: Chailly in Leipzig. What a turnaround that was from the things he did in Amsterdam! Never mind that I detested the bits I heard (it's not about me) but this was big when it came out, and as I remember pretty much exactly in the vein you look for in "new references". I believe it stayed in the catalogue for longer than these things usually get too. Days, even.
The Abbado/Berlin were my first introduction to Brahms' symphonies and associated things. I got the discs just about when they came out. And then when my girlfriend and I broke up, she ended up with custody of those CDs, and I moved on to Bernstein/Vienna (yeah, it's a bit eccentric), and Szell...but I've been thinking I should get my hands back on the Abbado set.
There exist Brahms recordings by at least three conductors who actually knew him: Felix Weingartner, Max Fiedler and Julius Prüwer. None of them sound like the period-instrument crowd doing Brahms's music.
The Weingartner 1928 Royal Philharmonic Orchestra recording of Brahms 1 is very clear. It is bizarre a recording almost 100 years old can sound so good. I wonder if the concept of "period instruments" even meant something in 1928.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I view Amazon from Australia. They must simply block stuff they won't send here. The only copy I see is AUD159!!! Similarly Wand's beethoven cycle is listed as AUD333!!
PS. Just read Jed Distler's review on Classicstoday of a wonderful Annie Fischer recording (10/7), Schumann and Schubert, appearing from the vaults (BBC), where it languished in seclusion for almost a lifespan...made me think..... RRRRRRRRipe fo RRRRRReissue and long overdue: Fischer's set of the complete Beethoven sonatas on Hungaroton (I've only been able to put my hands on a few individual cds from the set, but never found it in its totality, at least not at a price, that was affordable!).
Just about the period instrument issue: I have just seen a new recording of Mahler's 9th with period instruments. Taking in account that the symphony was premiered in 1912, I guess period instrument = actual instruments, aren't they? Just waiting for Dave's review of this recording. I'm sure It is going to be quite hiilarious
Yeah, those both (Brahms & Mahler) strike me as a desperate attempts to stay relevant. I think Mr. Hurwitz mentioned HIP recordings of Ravel in another video. One thing rear Mr. Hurwitz frequently mentions is the homogenization of all orchestras, albeit at a very high level compared to half a century ago. Perhaps historical re-recreation of a Czech or Vienna Philharmonic characteristic sound might be a goal… if we didn’t already have 60 years of stereo recordings of their work.
" period" is a word we understand without knowing it's meaning. Everyone plays period instruments. Just different periods. Are there authentic performances of baroque music using modern instruments? Yes. They are called " concerts"
The Levines really are wonderful. I seem to be able to listen to horrible people once they're dead. :D Dohnányi would be another contender for me. I don't think I've even heard Abbado [ashamed!] in Brahms. Must correct that soon.
Given that we’re about a quarter of the way done with the 21st-century, I think it’s difficult to describe things from the 80s or 90s as truly new. While all the recordings in this series will no doubt be of high quality, I doubt they can be actual references. Classical music has simply lost too much market share in the popular imagination for new recordings to be more than a source of nerdy debate among connoisseurs rather than new benchmarks being set.
To me, his finest work was there and in London. Prokofiev, Mendelssohn, Mahler, Ravel. I heard him get results there that I did not hear again in his Beethoven, or indeed in any of his later work.
I remember Abbado calling himself a perfectionist. No better modern day-ish conductor for Brahms then. Especially when they both always put the music first and took really advantage of a great orchestra. Something similar but not shared then here? Well, I think that we can all live with artists putting their craft and professionalism first. For Abbado himself it was indeed his crowning achievement, period
Levine was a pupil of Szell and many of you know.....I played for him a couple of times as a student at the Cleveland Institute of Music...he was a remarkably clear conductor even at that early time. I was sor of in awe of him and probably didnt play to my best abilities for him even as a grad student.....but his conducting at the time was no nonsense...clear as a bell......and did not have the mannerisms I saw during his Met era!
Two points of disagreement: 1) the quality of his Brahms recording alone entitles his Brahms cycle to be a modern reference recording. 2) His alleged sexual misconduct was never tried in a court of law, and he won a defamation suit against one of his accusers. If these allegations were not so salaciously and continuously reported, we could restore his recordings to their rightful musical place of honor.
That doesn't sound like disagreement if you were paying attention to what I actually said.
I've just heard Levine's rendition of Brahms' 3rd and I'm still recovering from the impression. So beautifully phrased, so many nuances. And a magical effect: the instruments, the strings in particular came across as human voices performing in an opera.
I didn't hear either of Levin's cycles until watching your video on the cycles but both are in my top five Brahms cycles. Each time I listen, there's that awful context and I don't know if that will ever fade for me. In fact, there are a lot of Levine recordings I find remarkable.
Abbado's Berlin cycle is spectacular and understandably is the reference.
Of course, I also love the Mackerras cycle on Telarc.
Abbado's first recording of the Brahms Symphony No. 3 with the Staatskapelle Dresden is even more wonderful than the Berlin recording - a 'desert island' Brahms recording.
I absolutely agree!!!. And the 1st and 2nd from that cycle are pretty darned good, as well.
No. 3 is my favorite, so I’ll have to check that out.
His Symphony No. 2 with Berlin from that early cycle is my favourite version of that work, it's better and more exciting than the later one in my view (and recorded in the Jesus-Christus Kirche rather than the less pleasant Philharmonie).
Dave, have you seen that the Decca Complete Sawallisch just went out on April? There’s also the Warner Symphonic, lieder and choral works ready for pre-sale, coming out on June. I’d guess that a Warner opera would be coming too in the future. What is your view on which would be the best set of those?
I'll get there. I'm working through the Decca set.
Wonderful cycle. In my opinion the best 4th! My first time with Abbado and Berliner was in Napoli, more than 30 years ago. Wonderful, exciting Brahms first!!!
Abbado BPO was my first Brahms cycle, based on the recommendation of the Penguin Guide. A great cycle. I’ll be checking out Levine as well.
My favourite 'modern' Brahms cycle is Levine's. My go-to cycles remain Walter (NY or California), Jochum (either Berlin or London Phil--better orchestra in Berlin, stereo sound in London) & Sanderling (Dresden!) I also like the interesting extremely flexible approach of Abendroth in Leipzig (adequate late 40's radio quality sound).
That about sums it up, doesn't it?
@@DavesClassicalGuideOh, & Klemps, of course!
Most of the symphonic cycles with Walter and the Columbia (psuedo) Symphony Orchestra on Columbia in Stereo is OUTSTANDING.....ESPECIALLY Walter's Brahms 4th
@@DavesClassicalGuide Not quite...Klemps (as someone else mentioned) and van Beinum...wouldn't live without any of either!
I often hear you say that many conductors have blown the 3rd. I’m hoping you will give us a video with more details of this history. I’ve listened to your Stokowski video, but I would like to hear about the failures of other conductors. Thank you.
I love the performance of Schicksalied in that collection.
Hello Dave,
I completely agree with everything you say about Abbado and Brahms-how well suited his approach of “sweating the details” (as you put it in your Brahms cycle video) is for Brahms. The only difference was that some of the first recordings I ever heard of his were his London Mendelssohn cycle (which is also great) and this Brahms cycle, so I’ve been an Abbado fan ever since! I also like at least one of his Verdi Requiems. I also remember hearing an amazing Dvorak tone poem on the radio many years ago (I don’t remember which one). So maybe it’s just the fact that the repertoire I’m most interested in finds him at his best? Perhaps at some point I will hear the “patchiness” you describe but so far have not encountered it very much, except perhaps in some of his Mahler, which I was expecting to like more than I did. Anyway, I think you are absolutely spot on about the Brahms. It really is the new benchmark. And I’m always grateful for your advocacy of the Levine cycles-I prefer the Vienna because of the orchestra’s passionate and voluptuous sound. I did not know them until you mentioned them and I’ve enjoyed them ever since-especially Vienna. But Abbado with the great choral couplings and Berlin is just so good. I guess for me a great Brahms and Mendelssohn (not to mention his Schubert) conductor is a great conductor! maybe not as versatile as some?
I agree this is an amazing set. I just wish the recoded sound wasn’t so reverberant. You lose a bit of clarity. I bought this set after I listened to Abbado’s Academic Festival Overture. But when I played the others, I remember being bitterly disappointed by how mushy and blurry the textures were. Sure enough, the Academic Festival Overture was recorded earliest of all in a different venue. I forget where. But the rest were recorded later in the Philharmonie I believe. Anyway, I still put up with it and sort of got used to it. I do love the interpretations. I love that Abbado doesn’t take the exposition repeat in the first. And he plays it fast. He also doesn’t do much speeding up in the coda of the second symphony. I think it is even more exciting than versions that do speed up. Which defies logic. And the couplings are fantastic. I do think this is the highest quality Brahms but just wish they recorded it in a less reverberant venue.
In terms of new updated reference recordings, has the reference recording for Appalachian Spring shifted from an older "big orchestra" version to the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recording of the chamber version?
I love these performances. I wanted to offer some thoughts about their reference status. Musical criticism, at least initially, has given both Chailly's cycle and Rattle's cycle similar immediate acclaim. Chailly's in particular seems to be a firm recommendation in many quarters, despite you finding it less than ideal. However, as time has worn on, the consistent availability and name cachet of the Abbado cycle has ensured its place among the significant cycles, while it seems to be consistently recommended from a wide variety of sources in "best of" lists. Meanwhile, the Rattle cycle seems to have fallen by the wayside, and the Chailly is increasingly seen as a "modern" outlook on the works that may not appeal as the one and only cycle to have. I don't know if this is also your view, or if I have characterised the situation correctly or not.
You have called it as you see it, and I largely agree.
About this series… i would suggest the Takacs Beethoven cycle as a new version de référence. I think it would qualify
The one I thought would be a shoe-in did not get a mention: Chailly in Leipzig. What a turnaround that was from the things he did in Amsterdam! Never mind that I detested the bits I heard (it's not about me) but this was big when it came out, and as I remember pretty much exactly in the vein you look for in "new references". I believe it stayed in the catalogue for longer than these things usually get too. Days, even.
The Abbado/Berlin were my first introduction to Brahms' symphonies and associated things. I got the discs just about when they came out. And then when my girlfriend and I broke up, she ended up with custody of those CDs, and I moved on to Bernstein/Vienna (yeah, it's a bit eccentric), and Szell...but I've been thinking I should get my hands back on the Abbado set.
Dave - can you give us your “new” reference for Mahler 1? My vote would go to Honeck and Pittsburgh.
There exist Brahms recordings by at least three conductors who actually knew him: Felix Weingartner, Max Fiedler and Julius Prüwer. None of them sound like the period-instrument crowd doing Brahms's music.
The Weingartner 1928 Royal Philharmonic Orchestra recording of Brahms 1 is very clear. It is bizarre a recording almost 100 years old can sound so good. I wonder if the concept of "period instruments" even meant something in 1928.
Alas it does not seem to be in print in CD form. 😞
I just saw it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I view Amazon from Australia. They must simply block stuff they won't send here. The only copy I see is AUD159!!! Similarly Wand's beethoven cycle is listed as AUD333!!
PS. Just read Jed Distler's review on Classicstoday of a wonderful Annie Fischer recording (10/7), Schumann and Schubert, appearing from the vaults (BBC), where it languished in seclusion for almost a lifespan...made me think..... RRRRRRRRipe fo RRRRRReissue and long overdue: Fischer's set of the complete Beethoven sonatas on Hungaroton (I've only been able to put my hands on a few individual cds from the set, but never found it in its totality, at least not at a price, that was affordable!).
Just about the period instrument issue: I have just seen a new recording of Mahler's 9th with period instruments. Taking in account that the symphony was premiered in 1912, I guess period instrument = actual instruments, aren't they?
Just waiting for Dave's review of this recording. I'm sure It is going to be quite hiilarious
Yeah, those both (Brahms & Mahler) strike me as a desperate attempts to stay relevant. I think Mr. Hurwitz mentioned HIP recordings of Ravel in another video.
One thing rear Mr. Hurwitz frequently mentions is the homogenization of all orchestras, albeit at a very high level compared to half a century ago. Perhaps historical re-recreation of a Czech or Vienna Philharmonic characteristic sound might be a goal… if we didn’t already have 60 years of stereo recordings of their work.
A Shostakovich symphony recording conducted by Shostakovich is HiP by definition. It has nothing to do with instruments from the 1750's.
I'm still waiting for a good, solid, period instrument recording of John Cage's 4'33".
" period" is a word we understand without knowing it's meaning. Everyone plays period instruments. Just different periods. Are there authentic performances of baroque music using modern instruments? Yes. They are called " concerts"
I thought you were going to go for the Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra version!
My first Brahms symphony experience, such great recordings. Imprinting and all that, but I've never heard another cycle that tops it for me.
The Levines really are wonderful. I seem to be able to listen to horrible people once they're dead. :D Dohnányi would be another contender for me. I don't think I've even heard Abbado [ashamed!] in Brahms. Must correct that soon.
Given that we’re about a quarter of the way done with the 21st-century, I think it’s difficult to describe things from the 80s or 90s as truly new. While all the recordings in this series will no doubt be of high quality, I doubt they can be actual references. Classical music has simply lost too much market share in the popular imagination for new recordings to be more than a source of nerdy debate among connoisseurs rather than new benchmarks being set.
what was Levine accused of ? i wonder about a double standard. just take a look at what the hip hop world is like !
Probably something any of us who have not recieved a month of HR training over "microaggressions" could be accused of -- if we were visible enough.
I think Abbado should have stayed in Chicago
He was never really there.
To me, his finest work was there and in London. Prokofiev, Mendelssohn, Mahler, Ravel. I heard him get results there that I did not hear again in his Beethoven, or indeed in any of his later work.