Rattle is fantastic here - and such a rarity to hear one conductor to talk so honestly and with great insight about a legendary conductor. And he is doing so about arguably one of the 2 greatest figures in his orchestra history - very bold and incredible.
+classicalalways One of the THREE greatest conductors in the BPO history. Please do not forget Celibidache, who was immediately after Fürtwangler and was far closer to the style of him. One (Karajan) sought for beauty of sound...and money; the other (Celi) always sought for ultimate Truth. As Fürtwangler did, by the way.
@@venturarodriguezvallejo1567 Karajan may have been driven by financial interest but he was totally dedicated to artistic integrity. The former did not lead to a debasement of the latter. Make no mistake, Karajan produced brilliant, sublime sound worlds.
And he speaks English. That helps you. You feel safe.......karajan. sprach deutsch...that was different......when you don't speak it,at all...now back to the safe place....
@Dagmar Van Doren I've actually listened to a couple videos of Karajan talking, and (despite the fact I had no clue what he was saying) I found his voice super relaxing
I agree. This is one of the most bracingly ambivalent interviews I've ever seen. On one hand, Rattle is amazed by the sound and power of Karajan's orchestra. On the other hand, Rattle seems tangibly repulsed and baffled by Karajan's technique and results.
FunOfTheChase It's hard not to miss! The Digital Concert Hall has a fascinating Karajan documentary, "Beauty as I See It," and Rattle's comments about Karajan in it have the same respectful and cautious tone, complete with his "no bullshit" line in talking about him: “Speaking to him was like interviewing a veteran, a general, like Patton” and “If you conduct the Berlin Philharmonic, you are a statue that needs to be toppled.” YIKES!
That wasn't quite what he was saying...I thought, in a truly British way, he said precisely and exactly what he thought...perhaps you don't get it...we don't do "nice"
mister Rattle is my favorite conductor,i like his understanding of music and his good humor in the rehersals,and how is communicating with the orchestra
A charming, respectful and very amusing portrait of Karajan. But whatever Sir Simon may criticize, the charisma of Karajan cannot be denied. His artistic music videos are unequaled til today, for example the mentioned Don Quixote with Rostropovich.
Interesting. I can't watch them, knowing they were the equivalent of "lipsynched" to their studio recording. They are truly " music videos"( produced as visuals) not performances. ( his live performance videos are quite different)
@@wolfie71231Showing your age? But I'll bite: combination of star cult, adjacent huge salaries and overhead, the introduction of the traveling conductor phenomenon, and (subsequent) artistic impoverishment by reducing the repertory to a few key works that can be recycled everwhere. That _kinda_ worked as long as record profits still existed, but now that has gone it weighs heavily on the sector.
I'm surprised he didn't talk about the dynamics, the way Karajan explored volume, which makes appreciating whatever he conducted impossible unless you turn it up.
A little churlish to criticise Karajan for closing his eyes and not communicating directly with musicians during performance. Karajan communicated directly (including banter and jokes) during rehearsal, but a performance was a time to put over an almost zen-like concentration for musicians, himself and the audience. The results as we know can be stunning.
Mr. Bean had closed eyes when conducting.....I dont think orchestra has eye contact with conductor....Somme cello players have closed eyes sometimes as Gautier Capucon. What about orchestras who play without conductor. But is possible Rattle isnt judging him. BUt why conductor shouldnt go behind camera as he said of Karajan..today people like all kinds of art the production is also art, its aesthetic art...like photography is art, documentary is art. Paul McCartney did music and fine art.
I don't believe this was a criticism, he seems genuinely confused as to why and how Karajan felt it was best to close his eyes in performance. When Simon Rattle conducts, you can observe him focusing his visual attention almost phrase-for-phrase on different orchestral sections; it's clear his conducting technique relies heavily on visual cues for communication. Karajan's method of control is almost a polar opposite to that. Both conductors create(d) wonderful music, but it's clear why Rattle is unable to understand how Karajan was able to do what he did, given his own method.
Amongst the behavioral anecdotes that everyone somehow feels obliged to repeat in discussions of von Karajan, Sir Simon says some fresh and thrilling things, about seeing music as color, about the value of unfinished rehearsal, about how rehearsing a piece from a musically innovative composer can bring fresh air into an old more traditional favorite. Personally, I connected with von Karajan the day I started spending time watching Maurice Bejart choreographing. Both had similar visceral relationships with music, Bejart conducted dance, and von Karajan danced music.
I have watched Rattle grow from being a kind of weirdo young conductor, who no one really knew what to do with, into the elder statesman of music we see here. He has surprised many of us!
min 3:50 the Brahms - Strauss rehearsal anecdote..... . looking for the sound.. incredible the process so the musicians of the orchestra would emulate the Strauss sound on the Brahms rehearsal .... OUT OF THIS WORLD !!!
The legend of Karajan is preserved, because of his attention to detail and obsessive search for 'capture'. The most interesting aspect in filming musical perfomances where we witness the coductors facial expressions reveals one of the most important cosmetic effect decisions that Karajan made: he would have seen himself conducting and at some point realised that in performance with cameras running, he is not appealing: he has a squint, at times, enough and probably witnessed other expressions that he simply didnt like about himself. In the narcissitic manner that befits any podium position, all eyes are on you! When Karajan closes his eyes, however a new and wonderful power emanates from his filmed persona: it is compelling to observe and we are literally 'inside' the sound world that he sought and graded and crafted so compellingly, so successfuly. I am surprised that Simon doesn't 'get that'. Watching Rattle conduct from TV/Film clips is too distracting for me. He communicates excellently with his orchestra but the visual aspect is disturbing and detracts from the sound world. When I finally listened to their Beethoven symphony cycles, back to back, without Rattles nostril flaring expressions getting in the way, I loved the sounds of both versions! Sorry Simon, closed eyed Karajan works on film. Open-eyed Rattle works live, but puts me off watching! Get it now?
Karajan was a great conductor is the sense that he could get everything he wanted from the orchestra without having to talk. But as a musician he was limited. The sound was always glorious, but great music is usually about more than sound. He was the ideal Richard Strauss conductor, and a fascinating Wagner conductor. But his rounding all the edges came at a great price. Beethoven, Verdi, Brahms . . . They sometimes demand gruffness, clarity of phrasing, variety of emotions. For me, listening to Karajan is like riding in an amazingly plush limousine that isn't going anywhere in particular. Listen to his Brahms Third, his Beethoven 3rd. Perfectly beautiful. Then listen to Walter, Furtwängler, Bernstein, Toscanini. Suddenly the music has meaning, it breathes, it sometimes startles you. You may not agree with the interpretation, but there IS an interpretation. For these reasons, I learn so much about the music from these conductors, and so little from Karajan. As a young conductor in the 50's he was much more animated. But one becomes what one wants to be, and what he became I find irrelevant.
I agree with everything except for the Brahms. I think Karajan's Brahms was wonderful idk. When I listen to his 1978 cycle it just sounds right, like it should always be played that way. But that's a matter of taste.
@@wei2190sd "Big is seen from a distance". IMHO, Karajan and Celibidache are difficult to compare with Furtwangler, Mengelberg or Bruno Walter; nevertheless, they were the greatest conductors of their generation.
When your attention is being constantly and conciously drawn towards the personality of the performer, you are being deliberately distracted from the most important thing. The composer and his music.
¡Magnífica entrevista! Ofrece una visión muy equilibrada de las ideas tan ambiciosas y específicas que tuvo el Maestro von Karajan y de sus métodos autocráticos para alcanzarlos. Un hombre implacable, sin duda, adecuado para una época que parecería superada. Hoy basta prender la pantalla para regresar al futuro: 28 de junio de 1914.
Really funny... he speaks with a smile and diplomatic way (quite sensitive considering his current position) but he actually has nothing good to say about the man! Every single point is mentioning words like "utterly repelent", etc.
I thought he gave credit where it was due and criticism was done often with the caveat that he didn't understand. Indeed Karajan's habit of looking at his own hands during conducting was a way of directing the orchestra, intensifying their concentration is an example of what Sir Simon may have missed. I appreciated the nuanced assessment. The goal of being balanced and not partial is almost entirely missing from political journalism today but we still see it in the media woth regard to the Arts . Thank God
@@TheGreatPerahia No, he's just not worshiping him and is looking at him as a fellow conductor. He's polite and tries to balance his opinion, whether you like that or not. Not all cultures have to idolise.
its fascinating to see SR say complimentary, even great things about HVK but at the same time keep his barely concealed disgust in check. Walking a tightrope.
I listened to a very late interview of Nicolas Harnoncourt with Stephanie Klein of BBC Radio 3 - despite the interviewer very great depths of Soul, Understanding, and Perception came across to me who was not much aware of him. I wonder how the two men would compare from such an experienced conductor as Rattle is? I suppose that there is always the duality for matching quality à la Mahler and Sibelius from essential difference in outlook.
I strongly disagree: the BPO under Wilhelm Furtwängler was much more open to (what I call) "real" music! I remember the answer by Furtwängler as he once had to hold strict tempo and was asked afterwards how he found it: "It sounds so awfully direct!" I admit that's a completely contrary (at least to Karajan's "beauty of sounds") interpretation of music (like Leonard Bernstein). However I think it's the only way to "true" music (both Furtwängler and Bernstein were composers). That's the re-composing way of conducting (that I adore more than any "Karajan sound")! You can hear this in the Beethoven Symphonies. (And that's the reason why I rate Furtwängler the greatest ever Beethoven conductor followed by Bernstein and now Jansons)! Even for the greatest conductors MY path went from (20th century): Arthur Nikisch, Wilhelm Furtwängler, Leonard Bernstein, Carlos Kleiber to (21st century) Mariss Jansons (only 5 names without any Karajan)! Unfair? Maybe but a very personal list (of conductors). Isn't that what music is all about? Very personal! What I like another dislikes and vice versa!
+MusikPiratCH. Yes, Furtwängler is the greatest conductor for Beethoven. I also admire Bernstein and Kleiber. I cant anything say about Nickisch, because there are not many recordings by him. But Karajan still is one of the greatest. And the matter here is, "Rattle contra Karajan." Karajan is very much better than Rattle. Although he was no composer, he made some of the best recordings and interpretations. Especially his Richard Strauss. And he was very good with singers, though he was sometimes unresponsible. (Helga Dernesch as Isolde!) By the way, it was a great disappointment when the BPO choosed Rattle instead of Jansons. So Jansons made the BRSO to one of the orchestras in the world and Rattle lowered the level of the BPO.
But every performance art is just show, by definition. I see no reason why classical music shouldn't do the same. Even Mozart and Beethoven did (their music for show). Nobody shows how music "was really done." They show what people want to see.
Of course Rattle is uncomfortable. Karajan may have been the greatest conductor of all time. Rattle isn't Karajan, nor does Rattle's Berlin have the same sound as Karajan's Berlin did. Yet Rattle is one of the best conductors of the modern day, and a great conductor in his own right. I feel bad for Rattle needing to give this interview, which couldn't be anything than awkward. Pity the man, being compared with Karajan all the time. No other living conductor is so often held to such high standards.
It was far more of an issue in the Cleveland Orchestra after George Szell's death.....Maazel, Dohnanyi, and Welser-Most......decent but never in the same league just as Sir Simon could never been in HvK's. Honestly there just weren't many folks that the BPO would have selected after Abbado....Rattle seemed to be the right thing at the right time.
If there would be today a conductor who could conduct verklärte Nacht or Bruckner 8 like Karajan then it would be great. His Boheme with Pavarotti, unbelievable. His Mahler 9...
Von Karajan told that he can concentrate better whrn keepung his eyes closed. He didnt want to see player wipe sweat or such. Von Karajan was simply the best.
We all cannot attend your concerts in Berlin or where ever. I have no problem with what Karajan was trying to do. Most in the world do not have that luxury. I feel Simon Rattle is all about the concert performance and the recording is suppose to be a recreation of a concert. The recording stands on its own. Thank god for recordings.
Sorry but Karajan was far Away from Sir. Simon Rattle , Abbado or Furtwangler , Karajan was sensitive as nobody, he had the guts to polish the Berlin Philharmoniker, that orchestra is what it is thanks to Karajan and if you check the sound then and now is not equal , today is boring , just check the trumpets attack , dynamics , rhythm efficiency back then , all was so tight, so pure , so clear , the level of proficiency was unreal , I just watched the Ravel ending with Karajan and that was electrifying , everything was right until some orchestra players cried because of their ego , that was the beginning of the end , no more titanic concerts , of course he was a character itself, is impossible to be great without ego , musicians didn’t understood at that time , today is worse , everyone wants to be a hero , deal with , Herber Von Karajan is no more , musicians ... remember ..... you’re nothing but a musician and your assignment is to play the right notes , you’re like a chair , like a violin bow , unless you’re the concertmaster you cannot argue and the most important guy is your ship captain ( conductor) , but the most important thing is music , music , MUSIC ! We need another Herbert von Karajan ...... sincerely .
No we don't. He had his day. many conductors followed trying to control media, demanding high salaries until classical music is nearly starved for funds as public support falls, ordinary people can't afford tickets. What we need now are conductors who are prepared to create bonds with community like Benjamin Britten did after WW2 , Alsop has done with Sao Paulo and Baltimore. You can' t have conductors now who prescribe a sound across the board. I want my Brahms to sound very dfferent to Mozart to Bernstein to Sculthorpe.
Putin??? Now you folks know how he got his job! Reminds me of the school class president who always claimed that the present administration had raised the standards above the former. That's why he's "Class President"!
WHEM I SAW MR.KARAJAN CONDOCTORING THE BEST ORQUESTRE OF THIS PLANET I THINK TO MY SELF : THIS MAN IS A ANGEL OF GOD.HE IS NOT THIS POOR WORLD.POOR MUSIC NOW.HE WAS THE OTHER PLANET AWESOME TIMES.
An angel? Not likely. The odious and arrogant Karajan was a Nazi who told Sir Malcolm Sargent that when the Germans invaded England he would have Sargent shot.
i like his comment about putin, and whether going back to karajan's strength in 2000-2010s would have been postmodern or modern. but then today we have yet another new world. on the one side there is right wing populism, on the other side strongman politics and stronger government tackling covid better. all is about time and place and people and beyond. you know it was a good interview if it continues to generate dialogue after years. kudos.
It's all about the results. Karajan's unremitting focus on beauty and refinement was often to the detriment of the music. Listening to his recordings these days I feel that iron-clad control he had over the orchestra and feel disappointed by the results. The films are ludicrous because most of the focus is on Karajan; there is that repellent narcissism that Rattle describes. But, there are recordings where his approach truly pays off. The 60s DG Sibelius recordings, the EMI Bruckner 7, the Honegger Symphonies, Shostakovich 10, that wild Prokofiev 5, Debussy Pelléas, much Strauss. I wouldn't be without these.
It's telling that, with the exception of Debussy, none of these composers were at the level of the greatest composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Verdi, Wagner, Brahms, Stravinsky, add your favorites (some will add Shostakovich, but not me).
For all his thinly veiled distaste for Karajan, betrayed by the repetition of weasel-words like "repellent" and "repulsed", the fact remains that under Rattle's watch, the famous Klang of the BPO was dismantled and he produced nothing of note during his tenure. Now I fear he will go on to disembowel the LSO. Rattle is scared stiff of the metaphysical in music and usually just prods, fiddles and tinkers with a score until nothing memorable or cohesive emerges. As you may divine, I am not a fan. Herbie had his faults and artistic failings, but the kind of poisonous, hysterical antipathy towards him led by that arch-bloviator Norman Lebrecht, does not alter the fact that Karajan's legacy is ten times that of Sir Simon.
OK so you don't like Rattle, and you have every right to your opinion. But the rest is not tenable. Maazel, Boult, Solti and (especially) Kleiber, Klemperer and Tennstedt - all left enduring legacies in terms of music. And without the arrogant Nazi poison that was inside "von" Karajan. Are you aware that he said that after the Germans had won the war he would see that Malcolm Sargent was shot? And he wasn't joking. Yes he was a good, even a great, musician but he was a vile human being and would be better consigned to the dustbin of history.
@@jonb6417 You cannot hear "arrogant Nazi poison" in his music-making - that's sheer projection. He also inspired great admiration and even devotion in singers who were themselves decent human beings, like Christa Ludwig, who loved working with him. I am not here to take every artist's moral temperature but for every example of Karajan's supposed "nastiness" you will find instances of remarkable but unsung generosity and even kindness. I don't understand the relevance of your citing the legacies of those other conductors as I never denied or even mention them. I do know that he left an extraordinary legacy himself of recordings which are unlikely ever to be surpassed - least of all by Sir Simon.
Seltsam, wie Simon Rattle über einen anderen Kollegen so allgemein wie ein Fan und nicht wie Kenner spricht. Das, was Simon Rattle sagt, hätte jeder X-Beliebige auch sagen können: Völlig bedeutungslos.
Great interview. Enjoyed the balance. An attempt to give credit where it is due and explore limitations is never welcomed by fans. I like both conductors : Karajan and Rattle. But you will never get the whole package with one conductor. When I listen to Bernstein I want Alsop, when I listen to Strauss (Richard)I want Kleiber for Barock another set of favourite conductors
I haven't been watching much of Sir Simon but was so suprised at the fact that he spoke English as his first language i have only watched him work on Das Rheingold and with Berlin bands so i thought his first language was Dutch because he fluently spoke German but said he was rusty.
@@franziskakre8309 it's not bad either! Like the curate' s egg. Overall typical German as second language! Competent in areas of use. Not so serviceable for wide ranging conversation.
celibidache was a musical genius everybody knew it. Although a snob. When asked of all the great conductors of the past he only acknowledged karajan as talented and toscanini as charlatan.
Unfortunately, Rattle cannot get over the fact that Karajan is the greatest conductor of all time and it shows in his comments. The post Karajan BPO is led by lesser men. Only Kleiber was equal to the task, but he rejected the offer out of respect for Karajan.
+Nikolaos Kal "the greatest conductor of all time". A very extravagant assertion,and impossible to justify. However,I respect your right to make such a statement.
Well, it's not like Rattle had to like Karajan, but he sounds so passive-aggressive. It's like he is pretending to like the guy, but then moves on to trash him subtly. That is so not classy. His praise seems hypocritical and forced. If he didn't want to give any praise to Karajan, he should just have said it and expose he doesn't like him instead of giving these childish, half-fake-praise, half-hidden-aggression answers.
Likewise mine with his Mozart's Requiem ... I really want to enjoy it, but compared to, JEG's, but especially by Sir Neville Mariner, it is flat, and the Tuba Mirum 'muddy' (but I suppose not having Alistair Miles didn't help, either ...) ... But what he was truly exceptional at was Beethoven; his interpretation of the Nine Symphonys beats out both JEG and Sir Georg Solti, although the latter's Ring Cycle would have suggested otherwise ...
I used to think Bernstein and von Karajan were so different. Now I see they are both pretentious, just in different ways. That "long breath," just a fraction of a second too long to make it serve the music is one of the things that unites them. I think of them both as too committed to their public image to be truly great artists. I can't imagine someone ever speaking of Carlos Kleiber in this way, even if they didn't appreciate his musical interpretations.
I really wonder, who all of you have heard BPh under Karajan and under Rattle, or have been in 1 room with HvK or Rattle, to judge them like u do here... they both, with their knowledge and presence, would eat you alive.
Karajan is one of those conductors you really love when you start seriously listening to classical music. THE BPO were always first rate and Karajan was quite the showman, even on record. I used to think he was the only conductor who could deliver a proper climax until I discovered what a climax really is. It's not about volume. The older I get the more one dimensional Karajan becomes. He's a one trick pony. I've seen Rattle a few times and enjoy him more than HVK. But like Karajan he's made the mistake of trying to record EVERYTHING. The creative peak of HVK's career was probably the 50s when he was with the Philharmonia. So many wonderful recordings that still hold up.
@@C.Hawkshaw i definitely rate him higher than Karajan or Rattle. And I agree with him about recordings in general. We need recordings to study and learn music, but music can only really unfold in the now. I’m sorry I never got to see Celi live. As for the recordings of him we have, some are better than others. He is best known for his Bruckner. The slow tempi do take some getting used to and you have to be in the right frame of mind to appreciate it. Probably early in the morning or late at night when you’re half conscious.
Yes, either envious that he wasn’t born in a time when a conductor could have autocratic control over an orchestra, or that he himself doesn’t have the force of personality or knowledge to have autocratic control.
Die Playback Videos sollten mit optischen Bildern des musikalischen Ablaufs den Höreindruck verstärken. Es war eben nicht gemeint nur einen üblichen Videomitschnitt zu machen. Diese Videos muss man vom Hören her "sehen"... Erstaunlich das Rattle das nicht verstanden hat...
Great insights on a conductor I really don't appreciate that much: Herbert von Karajan! I especially liked the answer of Rostropovich: "It needs to sound ugly!" That reminds me of Krystian Zimerman on "beautiful tones": "I like to play ugly sounds if it's needed!" (Indeed I never looked up to Karajan. I still think he did NOT reach his predecessor Wilhelm Furtwängler and that he was lucky to take over one of the two orchestras the BPO. At Karajan's time from the 1970s to Karajan's death I always found Leonard Bernstein to be not only the "better" conductor but the better musician!)
Every conductor has his "favourites". Bernstein was great, yes, but "his" Wagnerrecordings never reached the level of Karajans. He was better with Mahler, but Strauss "belongs" to Karajan. By the way, Rattle proves to be insidious, the kind he speaks about Karajan. Karajan never talked about Furtwängler or Toscanini like that. Although Furtwängler intrigued against him. As a matter of fact, Rattle was received with much enthusiasm in Berlin, but he became a real disappointment. Rattle is very arrogant.
I also don't think Karajan was good at Wagner (but that's always a matter of taste). Joachim Kaiser once told that you shouldn't ask Karajan about Furtwängler! (I think that tells the whole story.) I don't like Toscanini at all. I'm also not that sure about Richard Strauss and Karajan (but perhaps that's only because I don't like Karajan). I think even at Richard Strauss Furtwängler was better! For Johann Strauss (father and son) there is no better conductor but Carlos Kleiber. (Mariss Jansons is also better than Karajan, IMHO! Even Willy Boskovsky was better at the Strauss dynasty.) I don't think Rattle is arrogant. Music is so individual that what somebody likes another dislikes and vice versa. It's always a matter of personal taste and preferences. What I didn't like in the "Karajan-Era" was his presence in Europe. There was no real alternative (in Europe Karajan was like a Monopol)! There was only Bernstein who had the same influence in North America! Even at Furtwängler's peak (with VPO and BPO) there were many other conductors like Erich Kleiber, Felix Weingärtner and so on.
I appreciate Rattle's critique of Karajan, however unoriginal. Yet, the arrogance. The suggestion seems to be that the world has moved on from the naughty ways of Karajan. Just imagine the old man conducting an orchestra of original instruments! Mentioning Putin in the same breath as Karajan takes some nerve, or stupidity. Simon, listen to Karajan in Mahler, Berg, Webern, Shostakovich, in the Italian operas, the classics and romantics. You mention your listening experience as a teen in London with Karajan and the Brahms symphonies. I would be more interested in your opinions of listening to Karajan as a conductor and adult. Perhaps your deep prejudices prevented that.
+Michael Doyle It's patently obvious what his opinions of Karajan are from his perspective as a conductor and adult. It also strikes me as ironic that you would say Rattle has deep prejudices given the nature of the man he is discussing. Maybe it's Rattle's irreverence you don't like. I admire people for questioning the mythology that cloaks weighing the real attributes of their esteemed elders.
Karajan l'avrei riconosciuto anche se avesse diretto i Deep Purple. Sino completamente d'accordo con Rattle. Karajan con umiltà si imponeva su ogni dettato pentagrammatico, al contrario, ad esempio di Bernstein nei confronti di Mahler. Bernstein con veemenza, si sottomise.
Joaquim Méndez I agree with you in part, but the amazing aspect of recording music is ‘capture’. Sure, a butterfly, pinned and exhibited is a mere decoration, but Karajan and the BPO were working a gold mine of music. His production team at DG were able to capture remarkable audio experiences, where the musicians shine through in all their glory. It is the HvK Berliner sound that prevails, not the images of HvK conducting. That said, his presence in filmed / video recording is edited to present ‘das Wunder Karajan’, obviously. I love the sound and his charisma, both!
He did alot of eye contact in the rehearsals. In concerts he trust the Orchestra with his great memory too. Genius.
Rattle is fantastic here - and such a rarity to hear one conductor to talk so honestly and with great insight about a legendary conductor. And he is doing so about arguably one of the 2 greatest figures in his orchestra history - very bold and incredible.
+classicalalways One of the THREE greatest conductors in the BPO history. Please do not forget Celibidache, who was immediately after Fürtwangler and was far closer to the style of him. One (Karajan) sought for beauty of sound...and money; the other (Celi) always sought for ultimate Truth. As Fürtwangler did, by the way.
@@venturarodriguezvallejo1567 But the greatest was Nikisch.
@@venturarodriguezvallejo1567 Karajan may have been driven by financial interest but he was totally dedicated to artistic integrity. The former did not lead to a debasement of the latter. Make no mistake, Karajan produced brilliant, sublime sound worlds.
He cant talk honestly about anything that have to do with the berlin philharmonic, see….
Aside from all the amazing things said in this interview, Sir Simon has such a relaxing ASMR voice.
And he speaks English. That helps you. You feel safe.......karajan. sprach deutsch...that was different......when you don't speak it,at all...now back to the safe place....
@Dagmar Van Doren I've actually listened to a couple videos of Karajan talking, and (despite the fact I had no clue what he was saying) I found his voice super relaxing
Danke. Thank you you are,a peace maker....
What an unpretentious, elegant way to say how much Karajan wasn't his cup of tea
I agree. This is one of the most bracingly ambivalent interviews I've ever seen. On one hand, Rattle is amazed by the sound and power of Karajan's orchestra. On the other hand, Rattle seems tangibly repulsed and baffled by Karajan's technique and results.
Glad you saw that too.
FunOfTheChase
It's hard not to miss! The Digital Concert Hall has a fascinating Karajan documentary, "Beauty as I See It," and Rattle's comments about Karajan in it have the same respectful and cautious tone, complete with his "no bullshit" line in talking about him: “Speaking to him was like interviewing a veteran, a general, like Patton” and “If you conduct the Berlin Philharmonic, you are a statue that needs to be toppled.”
YIKES!
That wasn't quite what he was saying...I thought, in a truly British way, he said precisely and exactly what he thought...perhaps you don't get it...we don't do "nice"
A composer, conductor, musician who doesn't have a period is interchangeable and therefor meaningless.
mister Rattle is my favorite conductor,i like his understanding of music and his good humor in the rehersals,and how is communicating with the orchestra
A charming, respectful and very amusing portrait of Karajan. But whatever Sir Simon may criticize, the charisma of Karajan cannot be denied. His artistic music videos are unequaled til today, for example the mentioned Don Quixote with Rostropovich.
Interesting. I can't watch them, knowing they were the equivalent of "lipsynched" to their studio recording. They are truly
" music videos"( produced as visuals) not
performances. ( his live performance videos are quite different)
Wow, the description of a great artist with his pros and cons. Thank you.
THE
Karajan is one of those miracles that come every hundred years. He shaped his world to his liking, he shaped everything to perfection...
... and nearly killed off classical music altogether in the process.
According to who, you and your pocket rocket?
@@wolfie71231Showing your age? But I'll bite: combination of star cult, adjacent huge salaries and overhead, the introduction of the traveling conductor phenomenon, and (subsequent) artistic impoverishment by reducing the repertory to a few key works that can be recycled everwhere. That _kinda_ worked as long as record profits still existed, but now that has gone it weighs heavily on the sector.
Karajan DAS Wunder der Eitelkeiten. Ein NaRzisst in Gänze.
Could literally listen to this guy talk all day
I'm surprised he didn't talk about the dynamics, the way Karajan explored volume, which makes appreciating whatever he conducted impossible unless you turn it up.
It's a measure of Karajan's stature that > 25 years after his death his presence still looms so large over the BPO.
I really love that Rattle appreciates the good things.
Thank you so much. Just found this video. Always loved the way von Karajan's hands moved!
A little churlish to criticise Karajan for closing his eyes and not communicating directly with musicians during performance.
Karajan communicated directly (including banter and jokes) during rehearsal, but a performance was a time to put over an almost zen-like concentration for musicians, himself and the audience.
The results as we know can be stunning.
He wasn't criticising, but rather expressing his bafflement.
Mr. Bean had closed eyes when conducting.....I dont think orchestra has eye contact with conductor....Somme cello players have closed eyes sometimes as Gautier Capucon. What about orchestras who play without conductor. But is possible Rattle isnt judging him. BUt why conductor shouldnt go behind camera as he said of Karajan..today people like all kinds of art the production is also art, its aesthetic art...like photography is art, documentary is art. Paul McCartney did music and fine art.
We
I don't believe this was a criticism, he seems genuinely confused as to why and how Karajan felt it was best to close his eyes in performance. When Simon Rattle conducts, you can observe him focusing his visual attention almost phrase-for-phrase on different orchestral sections; it's clear his conducting technique relies heavily on visual cues for communication. Karajan's method of control is almost a polar opposite to that. Both conductors create(d) wonderful music, but it's clear why Rattle is unable to understand how Karajan was able to do what he did, given his own method.
Amongst the behavioral anecdotes that everyone somehow feels obliged to repeat in discussions of von Karajan, Sir Simon says some fresh and thrilling things, about seeing music as color, about the value of unfinished rehearsal, about how rehearsing a piece from a musically innovative composer can bring fresh air into an old more traditional favorite. Personally, I connected with von Karajan the day I started spending time watching Maurice Bejart choreographing. Both had similar visceral relationships with music, Bejart conducted dance, and von Karajan danced music.
One of the most insightful analyses of one conductor on another conductor. Most illuminating.
I have watched Rattle grow from being a kind of weirdo young conductor, who no one really knew what to do with, into the elder statesman of music we see here. He has surprised many of us!
a gentle man, he describes and remembers Karajan as only a Gentleman could.
min 3:50 the Brahms - Strauss rehearsal anecdote..... . looking for the sound.. incredible the process so the musicians of the orchestra would emulate the Strauss sound on the Brahms rehearsal .... OUT OF THIS WORLD !!!
Excellent. Thanks for sharing.
The legend of Karajan is preserved, because of his attention to detail and obsessive search for 'capture'. The most interesting aspect in filming musical perfomances where we witness the coductors facial expressions reveals one of the most important cosmetic effect decisions that Karajan made: he would have seen himself conducting and at some point realised that in performance with cameras running, he is not appealing: he has a squint, at times, enough and probably witnessed other expressions that he simply didnt like about himself. In the narcissitic manner that befits any podium position, all eyes are on you! When Karajan closes his eyes, however a new and wonderful power emanates from his filmed persona: it is compelling to observe and we are literally 'inside' the sound world that he sought and graded and crafted so compellingly, so successfuly. I am surprised that Simon doesn't 'get that'. Watching Rattle conduct from TV/Film clips is too distracting for me. He communicates excellently with his orchestra but the visual aspect is disturbing and detracts from the sound world. When I finally listened to their Beethoven symphony cycles, back to back, without Rattles nostril flaring expressions getting in the way, I loved the sounds of both versions! Sorry Simon, closed eyed Karajan works on film. Open-eyed Rattle works live, but puts me off watching! Get it now?
+Roland Bryce i like to listen to music not to watch it. Karajan the "spectacle" means nothing to music making.
Roland Bryce is just ridiculous that Rattle mentioned that , he should close eyes also
Here is the difference between You and Rattle - no gossip from him.
You can say everything about these, but conducting with closed eyes all the time looks like odd and arogant.
Karajan was a great conductor is the sense that he could get everything he wanted from the orchestra without having to talk. But as a musician he was limited. The sound was always glorious, but great music is usually about more than sound. He was the ideal Richard Strauss conductor, and a fascinating Wagner conductor. But his rounding all the edges came at a great price. Beethoven, Verdi, Brahms . . . They sometimes demand gruffness, clarity of phrasing, variety of emotions. For me, listening to Karajan is like riding in an amazingly plush limousine that isn't going anywhere in particular. Listen to his Brahms Third, his Beethoven 3rd. Perfectly beautiful. Then listen to Walter, Furtwängler, Bernstein, Toscanini. Suddenly the music has meaning, it breathes, it sometimes startles you. You may not agree with the interpretation, but there IS an interpretation. For these reasons, I learn so much about the music from these conductors, and so little from Karajan.
As a young conductor in the 50's he was much more animated. But one becomes what one wants to be, and what he became I find irrelevant.
I agree with everything except for the Brahms. I think Karajan's Brahms was wonderful idk. When I listen to his 1978 cycle it just sounds right, like it should always be played that way. But that's a matter of taste.
Some day another genius will give a talk about Simon Rattle.
Rattle is not a genius.
@@wei2190sd "Big is seen from a distance". IMHO, Karajan and Celibidache are difficult to compare with Furtwangler, Mengelberg or Bruno Walter; nevertheless, they were the greatest conductors of their generation.
Genial Simon Rattle!!! I love him!!! Greetings :)
When your attention is being constantly and conciously drawn towards the personality of the performer, you are being deliberately distracted from the most important thing. The composer and his music.
First time for me to hear Simon curse 2:22 XD
Very good interview with Sir Simon Rattle , such a warm and intelligent man and a wonderful conductor
I sang in the chorus of Damnation of Faust with Maestro Rattle. He’s not only a good conductor, but he also has charisma.
¡Magnífica entrevista! Ofrece una visión muy equilibrada de las ideas tan ambiciosas y específicas que tuvo el Maestro von Karajan y de sus métodos autocráticos para alcanzarlos. Un hombre implacable, sin duda, adecuado para una época que parecería superada. Hoy basta prender la pantalla para regresar al futuro: 28 de junio de 1914.
Great interview. Very wise words about a great conductor.
A highly intelligent, nuanced account of Karajan and his work. To be recommended.
Schade, daß er nicht mehr bei den Berlinern ist ... jedes Konzert war ein Genuß.
Really funny... he speaks with a smile and diplomatic way (quite sensitive considering his current position) but he actually has nothing good to say about the man! Every single point is mentioning words like "utterly repelent", etc.
Unfortunately for Rattle, with him the BPO has lost its shine and his rendition of Beethoven symphonies or concerti are boring.
@@TheGreatPerahia with all his stiff upper lipped approach, Simon Rattle is not worth a fart of Karajan.
Really? He calls the Webern/Schoenberg cycle "a miracle", etc.
I thought he gave credit where it was due and criticism was done often with the caveat that he didn't understand. Indeed Karajan's habit of looking at his own hands during conducting was a way of directing the orchestra, intensifying their concentration is an example of what Sir Simon may have missed. I appreciated the nuanced assessment. The goal of being balanced and not partial is almost entirely missing from political journalism today but we still see it in the media woth regard to the Arts . Thank God
@@TheGreatPerahia No, he's just not worshiping him and is looking at him as a fellow conductor. He's polite and tries to balance his opinion, whether you like that or not. Not all cultures have to idolise.
Have not seem Sir Simon Rattle for a while....more and more he looks like Sir Ian Holm.
What a soothing voice he has 😌
its fascinating to see SR say complimentary, even great things about HVK but at the same time keep his barely concealed disgust in check. Walking a tightrope.
I listened to a very late interview of Nicolas Harnoncourt with Stephanie Klein of BBC Radio 3 - despite the interviewer very great depths of Soul, Understanding, and Perception came across to me who was not much aware of him.
I wonder how the two men would compare from such an experienced conductor as Rattle is? I suppose that there is always the duality for matching quality à la Mahler and Sibelius from essential difference in outlook.
The 1963 Berlin Philharmonic . Never surpassed.
It's kinda better now.
+Joaquim Méndez it was much better under Karajan.
When you disregard the orchestras of Chicago and Cleveland of those days, I suppose.
I strongly disagree: the BPO under Wilhelm Furtwängler was much more open to (what I call) "real" music! I remember the answer by Furtwängler as he once had to hold strict tempo and was asked afterwards how he found it: "It sounds so awfully direct!"
I admit that's a completely contrary (at least to Karajan's "beauty of sounds") interpretation of music (like Leonard Bernstein). However I think it's the only way to "true" music (both Furtwängler and Bernstein were composers). That's the re-composing way of conducting (that I adore more than any "Karajan sound")!
You can hear this in the Beethoven Symphonies. (And that's the reason why I rate Furtwängler the greatest ever Beethoven conductor followed by Bernstein and now Jansons)! Even for the greatest conductors MY path went from (20th century): Arthur Nikisch, Wilhelm Furtwängler, Leonard Bernstein, Carlos Kleiber to (21st century) Mariss Jansons (only 5 names without any Karajan)! Unfair? Maybe but a very personal list (of conductors).
Isn't that what music is all about? Very personal! What I like another dislikes and vice versa!
+MusikPiratCH. Yes, Furtwängler is the greatest conductor for Beethoven. I also admire Bernstein and Kleiber. I cant anything say about Nickisch, because there are not many recordings by him. But Karajan still is one of the greatest. And the matter here is, "Rattle contra Karajan." Karajan is very much better than Rattle. Although he was no composer, he made some of the best recordings and interpretations. Especially his Richard Strauss. And he was very good with singers, though he was sometimes unresponsible. (Helga Dernesch as Isolde!)
By the way, it was a great disappointment when the BPO choosed Rattle instead of Jansons. So Jansons made the BRSO to one of the orchestras in the world and Rattle lowered the level of the BPO.
Sehr schö erzählt von sir simon rattle übet herbert von karajan
What a qualified interview - he doesn't mince words while he is in effect, mincing words.
I think he means to be respectful and is.
But every performance art is just show, by definition. I see no reason why classical music shouldn't do the same. Even Mozart and Beethoven did (their music for show). Nobody shows how music "was really done." They show what people want to see.
To hear someone like Rattle discussing someone of the caliber of Karajan this way is utter hilarity. BPO is now "normal." ...Too bad
agreed
A wonderfully frank story by Sir Simon about Herbert Von Karajan.
The blood of Szell and Boulez is present in The Cleveland Orchestra, even to this day.
You mean the blood and tears of all those whom Szell and Boulez tortured
@@MarshalN Boulez was more genial than Szell
Only in His Dreams ..Rattle would be like Maestro /Genius ..Herbert von Karajan..
What a description, and who will describe you Sir Simon Rattle the great?
VIVAT !
Você e Zimerman só piano interpretando Beethoven marcou a minha alma.🌿🇧🇷🇧🇷🍃💚💛💙
“I think he and Robert Wilson the director would have got on very well.” Superb.
Of course Rattle is uncomfortable. Karajan may have been the greatest conductor of all time. Rattle isn't Karajan, nor does Rattle's Berlin have the same sound as Karajan's Berlin did. Yet Rattle is one of the best conductors of the modern day, and a great conductor in his own right.
I feel bad for Rattle needing to give this interview, which couldn't be anything than awkward. Pity the man, being compared with Karajan all the time. No other living conductor is so often held to such high standards.
Absolutely!
I enjoy Karajan, Rattle, and all great conductors. Each has his or her own characteristics. I like Carlos Kleiber the best, of course.
It was far more of an issue in the Cleveland Orchestra after George Szell's death.....Maazel, Dohnanyi, and Welser-Most......decent but never in the same league just as Sir Simon could never been in HvK's. Honestly there just weren't many folks that the BPO would have selected after Abbado....Rattle seemed to be the right thing at the right time.
If there would be today a conductor who could conduct verklärte Nacht or Bruckner 8 like Karajan then it would be great. His Boheme with Pavarotti, unbelievable. His Mahler 9...
I do think the idea of orchestra members listen to each other like chamber music players was from Abbado, not Karajan.
You obviously need to see some Karajan rehearsals....
Jieqing Zhao nop .... of course not , Karajan was and still the best conductor ever
No its not an either or situation . Both promoted it
@@ralphnuolo3359 there is no such thing as the best conductor ever. It depends partly on repertoire.
Rattle will never beat Karajan, but if you understand the english language, but he never cursed about him, its the opposite .
Alexander Schneider Siemssen exactly.most of the people here didnt understand a word he said!
Yes, of course!
He has already beaten the loathsome Karajan!
People will still remember Karajan long after Rattle's been forgotten, warts and all.
Von Karajan told that he can concentrate better whrn keepung his eyes closed. He didnt want to see player wipe sweat or such. Von Karajan was simply the best.
We all cannot attend your concerts in Berlin or where ever. I have no problem with what Karajan was trying to do. Most in the world do not have that luxury. I feel Simon Rattle is all about the concert performance and the recording is suppose to be a recreation of a concert. The recording stands on its own. Thank god for recordings.
Sorry but Karajan was far Away from Sir. Simon Rattle , Abbado or Furtwangler , Karajan was sensitive as nobody, he had the guts to polish the Berlin Philharmoniker, that orchestra is what it is thanks to Karajan and if you check the sound then and now is not equal , today is boring , just check the trumpets attack , dynamics , rhythm efficiency back then , all was so tight, so pure , so clear , the level of proficiency was unreal , I just watched the Ravel ending with Karajan and that was electrifying , everything was right until some orchestra players cried because of their ego , that was the beginning of the end , no more titanic concerts , of course he was a character itself, is impossible to be great without ego , musicians didn’t understood at that time , today is worse , everyone wants to be a hero , deal with , Herber Von Karajan is no more , musicians ... remember ..... you’re nothing but a musician and your assignment is to play the right
notes , you’re like a chair , like a violin bow , unless you’re the concertmaster you cannot argue and the most important guy is your ship captain ( conductor) , but the most important thing is music , music , MUSIC !
We need another Herbert von Karajan ...... sincerely .
No we don't. He had his day. many conductors followed trying to control media, demanding high salaries until classical music is nearly starved for funds as public support falls, ordinary people can't afford tickets. What we need now are conductors who are prepared to create bonds with community like Benjamin Britten did after WW2 , Alsop has done with Sao Paulo and Baltimore. You can' t have conductors now who prescribe a sound across the board. I want my Brahms to sound very dfferent to Mozart to Bernstein to Sculthorpe.
Need another vile creature like Karajan? We certainly don't!
@@jonb4020 we need great music, certainly we need another mdfkr bahd azz conductor like Herbert, we don’t want a rainbow
Putin??? Now you folks know how he got his job! Reminds me of the school class president who always claimed that the present administration had raised the standards above the former. That's why he's "Class President"!
I saw the BPO under Rattle, should have brung my knitting needles,,,,
'
Richard Curtis and your grammar book
Ich bin der Nachfolger. Karajan war ein Genie. Ich bin wahrscheinlich auch ein Genie. Sehr raffiniert.
Exactly. He is a charlatan.
Rattle is so great. Thanks for sharing
WHEM I SAW MR.KARAJAN CONDOCTORING THE BEST ORQUESTRE OF THIS PLANET I THINK TO MY SELF : THIS MAN IS A ANGEL OF GOD.HE IS NOT THIS POOR WORLD.POOR MUSIC NOW.HE WAS THE OTHER PLANET AWESOME TIMES.
Saw???? Did you listen?
An angel? Not likely. The odious and arrogant Karajan was a Nazi who told Sir Malcolm Sargent that when the Germans invaded England he would have Sargent shot.
Lets remember drama is a greek invention!
i like his comment about putin, and whether going back to karajan's strength in 2000-2010s would have been postmodern or modern. but then today we have yet another new world. on the one side there is right wing populism, on the other side strongman politics and stronger government tackling covid better. all is about time and place and people and beyond. you know it was a good interview if it continues to generate dialogue after years. kudos.
"Stronger government tackling covid better". Lol. You mean like in New York and California? Or maybe France?
It's all about the results. Karajan's unremitting focus on beauty and refinement was often to the detriment of the music. Listening to his recordings these days I feel that iron-clad control he had over the orchestra and feel disappointed by the results. The films are ludicrous because most of the focus is on Karajan; there is that repellent narcissism that Rattle describes. But, there are recordings where his approach truly pays off. The 60s DG Sibelius recordings, the EMI Bruckner 7, the Honegger Symphonies, Shostakovich 10, that wild Prokofiev 5, Debussy Pelléas, much Strauss. I wouldn't be without these.
It's telling that, with the exception of Debussy, none of these composers were at the level of the greatest composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Verdi, Wagner, Brahms, Stravinsky, add your favorites (some will add Shostakovich, but not me).
Karajan: The first and only conductor who is more important than the composer.
Karajan was a great conductor. Rattle wants to be a great conductor.
For all his thinly veiled distaste for Karajan, betrayed by the repetition of weasel-words like "repellent" and "repulsed", the fact remains that under Rattle's watch, the famous Klang of the BPO was dismantled and he produced nothing of note during his tenure. Now I fear he will go on to disembowel the LSO. Rattle is scared stiff of the metaphysical in music and usually just prods, fiddles and tinkers with a score until nothing memorable or cohesive emerges. As you may divine, I am not a fan. Herbie had his faults and artistic failings, but the kind of poisonous, hysterical antipathy towards him led by that arch-bloviator Norman Lebrecht, does not alter the fact that Karajan's legacy is ten times that of Sir Simon.
OK so you don't like Rattle, and you have every right to your opinion. But the rest is not tenable. Maazel, Boult, Solti and (especially) Kleiber, Klemperer and Tennstedt - all left enduring legacies in terms of music. And without the arrogant Nazi poison that was inside "von" Karajan. Are you aware that he said that after the Germans had won the war he would see that Malcolm Sargent was shot? And he wasn't joking. Yes he was a good, even a great, musician but he was a vile human being and would be better consigned to the dustbin of history.
@@jonb6417 You cannot hear "arrogant Nazi poison" in his music-making - that's sheer projection. He also inspired great admiration and even devotion in singers who were themselves decent human beings, like Christa Ludwig, who loved working with him. I am not here to take every artist's moral temperature but for every example of Karajan's supposed "nastiness" you will find instances of remarkable but unsung generosity and even kindness. I don't understand the relevance of your citing the legacies of those other conductors as I never denied or even mention them. I do know that he left an extraordinary legacy himself of recordings which are unlikely ever to be surpassed - least of all by Sir Simon.
Your protection was born out. Thankfully he has left London
Sir Simon Rattle.
Seltsam, wie Simon Rattle über einen anderen Kollegen so allgemein wie ein Fan und nicht wie Kenner spricht. Das, was Simon Rattle sagt, hätte jeder X-Beliebige auch sagen können: Völlig bedeutungslos.
Alles mit ihm ist so
Great interview. Enjoyed the balance. An attempt to give credit where it is due and explore limitations is never welcomed by fans. I like both conductors : Karajan and Rattle. But you will never get the whole package with one conductor. When I listen to Bernstein I want Alsop, when I listen to Strauss (Richard)I want Kleiber for Barock another set of favourite conductors
I haven't been watching much of Sir Simon but was so suprised at the fact that he spoke English as his first language i have only watched him work on Das Rheingold and with Berlin bands so i thought his first language was Dutch because he fluently spoke German but said he was rusty.
His German is not very good.
@@franziskakre8309 it's not bad either! Like the curate' s egg. Overall typical German as second language! Competent in areas of use. Not so serviceable for wide ranging conversation.
celibidache was a musical genius everybody knew it. Although a snob. When asked of all the great conductors of the past he only acknowledged karajan as talented and toscanini as charlatan.
Unfortunately, Rattle cannot get over the fact that Karajan is the greatest conductor of all time and it shows in his comments. The post Karajan BPO is led by lesser men. Only Kleiber was equal to the task, but he rejected the offer out of respect for Karajan.
+Nikolaos Kal Nah, complete and utter bullshit. No current conductor considers Karajan that good. Mediocre and hated.
+Laparada del aseo Current conductors are dwarves, filled with envy over the giants of the past.
+Nikolaos Kal "the greatest conductor of all time". A very extravagant assertion,and impossible to justify. However,I respect your right to make such a statement.
+Nikolaos Kal "Karajan is the greatest conductor" I think you've misspelled Furtwangler there.
snap
An also-ran subtly backstabbing a master ...
this. well said.
I think it's clear that on some level this guy greatly resents von Karajan.
Oh Rattle........how small you are in front of him!
Well, it's not like Rattle had to like Karajan, but he sounds so passive-aggressive. It's like he is pretending to like the guy, but then moves on to trash him subtly. That is so not classy. His praise seems hypocritical and forced. If he didn't want to give any praise to Karajan, he should just have said it and expose he doesn't like him instead of giving these childish, half-fake-praise, half-hidden-aggression answers.
I think its not good style. Karajan never ever said anything bad about Furtwängler.
Karajan was passive aggressive. Singers have some revealing anecdotes.
Biggest disapointment was hearing Karajan's horrible interpretation of Schubert's Great Symphony.
Likewise mine with his Mozart's Requiem ...
I really want to enjoy it, but compared to, JEG's, but especially by Sir Neville Mariner, it is flat, and the Tuba Mirum 'muddy' (but I suppose not having Alistair Miles didn't help, either ...) ...
But what he was truly exceptional at was Beethoven; his interpretation of the Nine Symphonys beats out both JEG and Sir Georg Solti, although the latter's Ring Cycle would have suggested otherwise ...
I used to think Bernstein and von Karajan were so different. Now I see they are both pretentious, just in different ways. That "long breath," just a fraction of a second too long to make it serve the music is one of the things that unites them. I think of them both as too committed to their public image to be truly great artists. I can't imagine someone ever speaking of Carlos Kleiber in this way, even if they didn't appreciate his musical interpretations.
He is not worht a fart of Karajan, period.
If Rattle critisize Karajan its like David Garrett critisize David Oistrach.
Because, I admire much more Simon!
and this is why Karajan is considered a musical genius and Rattler a mediocre conductor...
I really wonder, who all of you have heard BPh under Karajan and under Rattle, or have been in 1 room with HvK or Rattle, to judge them like u do here... they both, with their knowledge and presence, would eat you alive.
Karajan is one of those conductors you really love when you start seriously listening to classical music. THE BPO were always first rate and Karajan was quite the showman, even on record. I used to think he was the only conductor who could deliver a proper climax until I discovered what a climax really is. It's not about volume. The older I get the more one dimensional Karajan becomes. He's a one trick pony. I've seen Rattle a few times and enjoy him more than HVK. But like Karajan he's made the mistake of trying to record EVERYTHING.
The creative peak of HVK's career was probably the 50s when he was with the Philharmonia. So many wonderful recordings that still hold up.
@lilive What do you think about Celibidache?
@@C.Hawkshaw i definitely rate him higher than Karajan or Rattle. And I agree with him about recordings in general. We need recordings to study and learn music, but music can only really unfold in the now. I’m sorry I never got to see Celi live.
As for the recordings of him we have, some are better than others. He is best known for his Bruckner. The slow tempi do take some getting used to and you have to be in the right frame of mind to appreciate it. Probably early in the morning or late at night when you’re half conscious.
I sense a great deal of subtle envy built up in Rattle, over the years, for the truly *great* man he so passive-aggressively slanders
Yes, either envious that he wasn’t born in a time when a conductor could have autocratic control over an orchestra, or that he himself doesn’t have the force of personality or knowledge to have autocratic control.
Yes
There is no way bei den Beethoven insbesondere geht kein Weg an Karajan vorbei,das gilt auch für rattle
Die Playback Videos sollten mit optischen Bildern des musikalischen Ablaufs den Höreindruck verstärken. Es war eben nicht gemeint nur einen üblichen Videomitschnitt zu machen. Diese Videos muss man vom Hören her "sehen"... Erstaunlich das Rattle das nicht verstanden hat...
Great insights on a conductor I really don't appreciate that much: Herbert von Karajan! I especially liked the answer of Rostropovich: "It needs to sound ugly!" That reminds me of Krystian Zimerman on "beautiful tones": "I like to play ugly sounds if it's needed!"
(Indeed I never looked up to Karajan. I still think he did NOT reach his predecessor Wilhelm Furtwängler and that he was lucky to take over one of the two orchestras the BPO. At Karajan's time from the 1970s to Karajan's death I always found Leonard Bernstein to be not only the "better" conductor but the better musician!)
Every conductor has his "favourites". Bernstein was great, yes, but "his" Wagnerrecordings never reached the level of Karajans. He was better with Mahler, but Strauss "belongs" to Karajan. By the way, Rattle proves to be insidious, the kind he speaks about Karajan. Karajan never talked about Furtwängler or Toscanini like that. Although Furtwängler intrigued against him.
As a matter of fact, Rattle was received with much enthusiasm in Berlin, but he became a real disappointment. Rattle is very arrogant.
I also don't think Karajan was good at Wagner (but that's always a matter of taste). Joachim Kaiser once told that you shouldn't ask Karajan about Furtwängler! (I think that tells the whole story.) I don't like Toscanini at all.
I'm also not that sure about Richard Strauss and Karajan (but perhaps that's only because I don't like Karajan). I think even at Richard Strauss Furtwängler was better!
For Johann Strauss (father and son) there is no better conductor but Carlos Kleiber. (Mariss Jansons is also better than Karajan, IMHO! Even Willy Boskovsky was better at the Strauss dynasty.)
I don't think Rattle is arrogant. Music is so individual that what somebody likes another dislikes and vice versa. It's always a matter of personal taste and preferences.
What I didn't like in the "Karajan-Era" was his presence in Europe. There was no real alternative (in Europe Karajan was like a Monopol)! There was only Bernstein who had the same influence in North America!
Even at Furtwängler's peak (with VPO and BPO) there were many other conductors like Erich Kleiber, Felix Weingärtner and so on.
Karajan was way superior to Ratle. Way superior!
"Carrie-Anne"
I appreciate Rattle's critique of Karajan, however unoriginal. Yet, the arrogance. The suggestion seems to be that the world has moved on from the naughty ways of Karajan. Just imagine the old man conducting an orchestra of original instruments!
Mentioning Putin in the same breath as Karajan takes some nerve, or stupidity.
Simon, listen to Karajan in Mahler, Berg, Webern, Shostakovich, in the Italian operas, the classics and romantics. You mention your listening experience as a teen in London with Karajan and the Brahms symphonies. I would be more interested in your opinions of listening to Karajan as a conductor and adult. Perhaps your deep prejudices prevented that.
+Michael Doyle It's patently obvious what his opinions of Karajan are from his perspective as a conductor and adult. It also strikes me as ironic that you would say Rattle has deep prejudices given the nature of the man he is discussing. Maybe it's Rattle's irreverence you don't like. I admire people for questioning the mythology that cloaks weighing the real attributes of their esteemed elders.
+B Gorian No. Its the man's ignorance I don't like. Anyone can be irreverant. Check out my latest comment for an example, although it is also true.
Love your comment, Michael Doyle, and totally agree!
+Michael Doyle so you love karajan and cannot accept any criticism of the man. "Ignorance" is misapplied.
*****
Now how can you judge from your clear fanboy perspective? S. Rattle is very respectful of Karajan but oh what is that? a word of criticism?
That is deutsch. You say it as it is....not as you wished it should be. Red is red. He is blue....no wieseling.....
Karajan l'avrei riconosciuto anche se avesse diretto i Deep Purple. Sino completamente d'accordo con Rattle. Karajan con umiltà si imponeva su ogni dettato pentagrammatico, al contrario, ad esempio di Bernstein nei confronti di Mahler. Bernstein con veemenza, si sottomise.
So British😌
Genial !
"Herbertchen" sehr scharf kommentiert. Danke.
He very elegantly dances around Karajan's Nazism, but I question the ethics of dancing around that.
Karajan was about sound. The perfection of sound. Not about the power of sound. Karajan is the past. Now, is the present.
7:30
Joaquim Méndez I agree with you in part, but the amazing aspect of recording music is ‘capture’. Sure, a butterfly, pinned and exhibited is a mere decoration, but Karajan and the BPO were working a gold mine of music. His production team at DG were able to capture remarkable audio experiences, where the musicians shine through in all their glory. It is the HvK Berliner sound that prevails, not the images of HvK conducting. That said, his presence in filmed / video recording is edited to present ‘das Wunder Karajan’, obviously. I love the sound and his charisma, both!