Socialism in Yugoslavia (Ft.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
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In this episode, I am joined by my friend Yugopnik, Balkan video essayist and cohost of The Deprogram podcast, to discuss the Yugoslav socialist experiment and the lessons we can learn from it. This includes the pros and cons of "market socialism", the legacy of Tito, decentralization, the Balkans today, and much more.
Check out Yugopnik's videos: / @yugopnik
Follow Yugopnik on Twitter: / yugopnik
The Deprogram pod: / @thedeprogram9999
1Dime Twitter: / 1dimeofficial
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The irony of Communists using every product of capitalism, and the vibrant startup ecosystem it produces, to spread the BS of how good communism is!😄Funny how no Communist nation could produce a TH-cam, Patreon, Spotify, or Apple. Even if someone tried, the Communists would have nationalized it, branded the founder a rightist/capitalist, ruined their creation, and then eventually bankrupt the company.
It’s great to hear my favorite Balkan Commie, Yugopnik! Red Salute and solidarity tovarishi from North Jersey, future United Socialist States of America
Of course a commie from Jersey HAHAHA
@@Darydude10 Better than being a Fascist pig.
@@Darydude10 Communists are everywhere, cry
Che Guevara said that revolutions cannot be exported but they are organic and are caused by the conditions and organisations of the People. Great podcast!!! 1Dime & Yugopnik about one of my special interests and connecting histories. YAS! Gracias! Hvala!
An organic revolution can fail due to misfortune though, and a socialist state could help prevent that with well placed solidarity
Holy shit. TH-cam is doing it's job.
Don't know this channel but I am interested in the topic and if yugopnik is part of it it's gotta have sth to say for itself.
51:07 Holy shit. This brought me back to my childhood when my parents came back to our home country after studying in the former Soviet Union and brought back fun, imaginative, creative, Soviet-crafted WOODEN toys to me and my younger brother. The initial fascination wore away quickly after a few days, because we grew up in the '80s, when Saturday morning cartoons ruled every child's mind, so we grew up coveting action figures like G.I. Joes and transforming robots. Even now, those same vintage toys still make prisoners of some in my generation deprived of access to those expensive toys when we were children.
I was thinking when I heard that and while reading your comment that there is something really sad to me about a child not having the nicer/more expensive childhood experiences that luckier children do. Then I remembered I grew up poor and was deprived of those experiences LOL
Succumbing to advertising can lead to pretty hollow experiences early on, I was enthralled by a Playmobil pirate ship I saw in commercials and my parents got me a used one from the flea market that was missing a lot of parts. Got a new one later, but was ashamed for pestering them about it and after assembly there wasn’t that much I could do with it. Got way more mileage out of primitive Lego blocks and wood trains…
I agree the Soviets were too hands on on Eastern Europe but remember that this is post ww2 where multiple European (including Eastern European) armies had invaded and slaughtered their people, the Soviets needed to make sure the Eastern European countries were loyal and wouldn't collude or betray them in the event of ww3.
Yugoslavia also invaded Italy (Trieste), the Cold War was pretty close into turning hot. To say that Stalin was antagonistic to Yugoslavia is an overstatement, they tried not to get nuked.
yeah hows that working out for the russians now tho....eastern Europe has a very big excuse to hate them even more
@ristekostadinov2820 also Italy itself nearly turned red. It was only through British and American meddling that kept socialists from taking power in Italy. They propped up fascist movements to do so. The most notable post ww2 being in Spain
" You don't know how average bananas are." 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
- Yugopnik - the greatest thinker-interpreter-articulater of our time
Talk. To. Tomas. About. Planning.
Tomas Hardin is THE expert on economic planning
Talk to Alexey Safronov, (one of the narrators of "Prime Numbers" (Простые числа) channel, his Plan A "План А" series are very interesting), about planning. He is working in Russian planning institution and he did a GREAT job researching and analysing Soviet planning experience, causes and consequences of decisions and collapse.
He is an expert too, with straight access to documents, cuz he is just working in same institution that in soviet times was named as "Gosplan".
Tomas Hardin? i don't think they could bring the guy from batman, he's too famous. Just kidding, he was on an episode of The Deprogram not too long ago for everyone interested in planning.
Bananas? Revisionism! Mao established mangos as the people's fruit. ML-maosim-mangoism
Chqiuita (united fruit conpany) even instigated fascist take overs via the US.
Bananas are clearly counter-revolutionary.
This podcast was totally bananas!
With the U.S. consumer goods thing, I don't think the power of curiosity can be underestimated. The east fascinates the west and the west fascinates the east because it's radically different, alien, new
Missed the podcast, glad to have you back!
Did you get the link for reading sources from Yugo??
also interested
It's complicated as is often the way with Socialist republics ach I would say that I disagree with market socialism as markets are part of the transition to socialism and Communism ach Yugoslavia in me own opinion was more like co-op capitalism than Socialism. As much as I oppose historical Soviet and especially Soviet Russian Chavenism, they were trying for a system that we knew didn't work.
54:29 it's funny Yugopnik mentions this with the banana, in the US we have sky high inflation and yet bananas are still the cheapest fruit you can find at the store. There's obviously very evil reasons for this on the US side.
Also the point of a child having a banana very rarely reminds me of how here Christmas presents 90-100 years ago used to be just oranges. It was the greatest thing for kids back in the day. Just a piece of fruit that we now have an abundant and regular supply of.
Tangerine is a traditional fruit for the New Year celebration in the post USSR countries too
Imo, I’ve never been to materialistic, even as a kid I was never really the type of person super excited about gifts, for me as long as I have Internet, some time to travel, personal space, and sleep, I’m doing pretty good
1Dime and Yugo 😍🤤
All resources for social benefit (food, shelter, utilities, education, banking, medical care, transportation, etc.) are under democratic control (nationalized, worker controlled) and all the other stuff like rubber dog shit is left to be produced by capitalism in free enterprise zones. This is the solution I believe is in line with Yanis Varoufakis's idea for how to organize society. Yes, the capitalists would have to compete against the national infrastructure for workers, etc., but that's their problem. I believe this is the model that would work the best, and although it tolerates capitalists - an idea i do not like - it does allow for market produced products and services to be offered to meet the needs of society to express itself. As long as the free market zones are kept under tight control, it would likely be beneficial to the people.
Meeting the needs of society is what socialism is all about. Computer planned economy is the future. We don't need capitalists or markets, just common sense planning.
I know so many older people, and by "older" I mean like those born mid eighties and before, who are now "big believes in otrhodox christianity" and they hate communists because they "forbid church" (it wasn't forbidden, it just wasn't popular) and when you ask them would they live in Yugoslavia again they say -YES 😂😂😂😂
Lmao
I have a couple of questions, what are the main arguments people use to try to claim that religion was banned in the USSR and Yugoslavia
@@waspwrap1235 I can't speak for the USSR, but when it comes to Yugoslavia, they don't have arguments- they are simply LYING! And even if they say that their parents/grandparents "had to hide" that they were celebrating religious holidays and have baptized children "secretly", that means that they were active members of the communist party (which was optional not mandatory) and it would have been really stupid and hypocrite really to be open about it. Regular folk did go to churches/mosques without any problem, in many cases you would have a husband being a member of the party and the wife dedicated muslim/christian or vice versa.
@@waspwrap1235 there are no arguments actually, they just say that to keep religion in present times relevant. As I remember, as a child born in 1980 Jugoslavija, nobody was talking anything against church, generally non-religious people just didn't care and religious ones went to church normally. I cannot say for 50's - 80's as i wasn't born then, but personally I never heard anyone talking something against religion here in Zagreb, only ones that I heard talking that shit about Jugoslavia's repression against religion were politicians and catholic priest after 1990, as a propaganda. That still goes today.
With all respect to Yugopnik, this misrepresentation of the Soviet planned economy as this pyramid-like structure where 'the centre' dictates everything is getting tiresome. All of the planning was a result of constant back-and-forth between the planning agencies, the political leadership, and the industries at different levels, coordinating what needs to be done, what can be done, and what needs to be prioritised. This notion that Moscow decides when every last gold miner in Magadan gets to fart is typical anticommunist strawmanning.
These experiments with territorial independence (Khrushev's Sovnarkhoz reform) and with combining profit incentives for companies and a planned, non-market allocation of means of production (1965 Kosygin reform) were all tried in the Soviet Union. They aren't special to Yugoslavia, and the clear bottom line is that they ultimately lead to the dismantling of any work towards a functioning Socialist economy, especially in a besieged state/bloc.
This example of 'you'll hire these people because we tell you to hire them' as an explanation for low unemployment is very indicative of gaps in knowledge. Starting with the 50's onwards, there was a constant deficit of workers in the Soviet Union, real deficit (not 'there aren't enough exploitable people' kind of deficit) - and, in the absence of right incentives companies often *hoarded* workers.
Leaving the vibe-based arguments in the style of 'but what about restaurants' beside the point, because obviously everyone in the USSR ate, worked, and slept in a huge factory building. You don't need a bunch of bros wanting to set up a business out of the blue in order for restaurants or whatever else to be created by capable and motivated people seeing demand and satisfying it (instead of bros cobbling something together and hoping they extract more cash out of it than they do now). Get out of petit-bourgeois mentality, ffs.
That is beside the point that there were a craptonne of various ways people could earn money or products, from self-employment and subsistence farming to artisan and worker associations.
I think what Yugopnik so peaks of here is the retold story of his parents. Mine were born 1955 and 1957 and they couldn't tell what was life like in early USSR (before Kosygin's reforms), just as they weren't interested enough to ask what was it like 20 years prior. My grandparents were born 1929 and 1930, were never in the positions of power, grandma died a few months ago. Yugo just somewhat generalizes anecdotal evidence and personal experiences of his acquaintances
Very interesting discussion and perspectives! Thank you!
Where is the recommended books list?
22:00 Anyone feel free to correct me but I think the term was društvena svojina - social property.
It belongs neither to the individual or state but to "society".
During privatization a couple of these were giving off stocks to long time workers
Although they still ended up in shady hands as they always do when transitioning back to capitalism
~54:00 people have to be led through wanting consumer baubles like they need to be led through electoralism to see its emptiness?
Heck yeah!!!
I hate yugopnik. He's always stopping that blue hedgehog with his machines
Thank you guys so much for making this podcast!
One thing that struck me was how the co-ops were privatised by the passing of laws in the succesor states. Evidently that form of common ownership also requires the protection of the state, and isn't self-protecting. It's disappointing that there wasn't a popular majority of co-owners who wanted to keep their co-owned property, which is what you would hope for a co-operativised economy, that it would become self-sustaining and self-promoting politically within an electoral parliamentary system, just by the self-interest of co-owners as a lobby and a demographic. Obviously there was a lot of lying to the public in each case about how everything would be better in a privatised economy, and doubtless the pro-western nationalists insisted it was necessary for independence and western aid etc, but still, that all those people apparently voted to be dispossessed like that is very disheartening.
The issue about brand advertising does make me think that there has to be advertsing and some element of market competition in a socialist economy - not to compete with capitalist economies, but because marketing adds value to products. Advertising is an essential stage in the production process in capitalism, without which there wouldn't be sufficient valorization of sunk capital because not enough products would be sold, and not for the inflated price necessary for profit.
It's only possible for advertising to warp consumer demand so much because it adds value, especially in the prettifying of the shapes of consumer goods, and in the packaging thereof, so much that it's possible to sell "unboxing" toys where the collectible toy is the box and not the gee-gaw inside it. It adds value because consumer satifaction is part of surplus value, where value is defined as socially-useful labour time. It's part of the "socially useful" element, since without it customers are less satisfied and get less joy and utility from the commodity.
This is one of the reasons the Soviet economy suffered from declining returns to investment, along with long-build and management corruption and sabotage by faking output reports to mamixise funds for plan fulfillment in the next year. Not updating their product lines frequently like capitalist industries led to declining customer satisfaction, where the brand new product was the same model as 8 years ago, so each year carrying on producing an old design reduced the value of what was delivered to customers, making more of the cost of its production a waste. Failure to update products meant slow improvement in functionality, as well as long-build and sluggish productivity growth when it applied to machine tools and other productive equipment staying the same for years or decades.
Value in socialist economy? Are you kidding me? There is no value in socialist economy. Or if there is, it is modified and is only kept temporarily as you move along towards full transformation of society into communism. Obviously, in early stages of socialism you would have traits of capitalism. But you must be aware of it and try to slowly get rid of it.
Advertisement is capitalist tool. It creates desires and wants of people. Most of it is not necessary. Advertisement creates illusionary value to the product that might be useless and not really necessary for humans or of bad quality. For example, jeans are really bad quality material but most people now think it's good thing that everyone needs. Many people now wear some atrocious pants with holes in it and it costs a lot of money because advertisement and fashion industry work hard to convince naive people of importance and status and illusionary quality of such product in order to maximize profit.
Socialist economy is planned economy. Which what Soviet Union did and did with success. As somewhere in mid 1930s Soviet society almost reached peak socialism as most of basic services were completely free for everyone (electricity, housing, education, healthcare, vacation, childcare, camps for kids). Goods (food, clothes) were also produced without any issues. Soviet people's all utmost needs were covered by planned economy. Of course, money was still present and value existed (but was already transformed).
What created problem in Soviet economy is reforms (by Khruschev and others) in 50s and 60s. Reforms that re-introduced slowly profit and decentralized economy and gave authority to manufacturers to plan their own output. So reforms introduced capitalist elements into planned economy that had some problems which mostly came down to handling big amount of information. But those problems werent impossible to solve and could've been solved (as there was development of computers in late 50s) without decentralization and introduction of profit motive. Those reforms were done by new generation of communists who didnt know marxist or leninist theory very well. And many old communists who made revolution and worked hard during early three decades died during World War II. So there was theoretical vacuum. In which those reforms were introduced that created slowly capitalist conscience in minds of many Soviet people. Through prioritization of consumer economy and introduction of profit. So cause of collapse of Societ economy wasnt planned economy.
54:37 I mean, to be fair, I would overthrow the government for bananas. Those shits are delicious!
Sings - Yugoslavia forever -
Nice vid lads
14:00 Are there any documents about the YU space program existence, when i was interested on the topic i was finding conflicting answers on the internet.
th-cam.com/video/KBYy5qmVJrE/w-d-xo.html
No. It actually didn't ever exist, it is a conspiracy theory as old as Yugoslavia. It was a subject of a great movie called "Houston, we have a problem" 2016. It was explored from the mythological standpoint and how propaganda works. Slavoj Žižek was in the movie. My warmest recommendation! It's a wonderful piece. (Hint: all people in the movie are actors)
The Balkans is everything under the Sun.
Found the Serbian lol
@@nicholascharles9625 I'm not even slavic lmao
Does anyone have the book recommendation list?
Hakim might
Is market socialism comparable to Lenin's New Economic Policy?
You gonna hate the term "tankie" the most brain dead term. All us socialists know we have to learn from the past to prepare for the future. Its nice to see good criticism for past socialist projects. Learning is progression, and progression is the only way forward. "Learn, learn, and learn" -Lenin
Just to hear some other peoples perspectives out of good faith, what criticisms do you think are fair for socialist projects?
woooo greece hell yeah. wonder what wouldve happend if the KKE went with yugoslavia instead of the USSR during the russo-yugoslav split (seriously why on earth did they do that)
Balkans ment to be divided after WW2 by any means necessary, people had the majority then for a social goverment, but then the Marshal plan arrived. Greece took the fourth biggest amount of money in whole Europe to establish the laughable neoliberal demnocracy of today.
Yugoslavia would've betrayed Greece too, Tito signed deal with the fascists of Turkey and Greece plenty of treaties for friendship in the 50s. 2nd how will Yugoslavia arm Greece when Yugoslavia itself was dependent on other countries at least until the factories started producing weapons but it was after the communists lost already + US/UK would've pressured Yugoslavia to not arm the KKE (something that actually happened).
This is a non-argument mired in pseudohistory and pseudo-geopolitics, I suggest Maria Todorova on the specific matter of the premise of "Balkanism". America was initially in favor of the preservation of Yugoslavia, but after Germany offered unilateral recognition and support to the illegal secession of Yugoslavia, and then spent months lobbying in the EEC and the UN to get others to recognize them, they too revoked their support for the preservation of Yugoslavia and provided this "Western aggression" against Yugoslavia with an additional, USA dimension to it. Germany declaring war on Yugoslavia in all but declaration, and starting the wars in Yugoslavia is an irrefutable historical and geopolitical fact, Karen Talbot, J.D. Heidenheimer, French Foreign minister Dumas, Daniel Vernet, Mitterand, the US State Department (including Warren Cristopher), Joseph Joffe, John Mearsheimer, Lord Carrington, and Cyrus Vance are universally clear on the matter. What needs to be stressed is that Yugoslavia was offered IMMEDIATE* entry to the EEC, all member-states were in favor of it, barring Germany, who then proceeded to unilaterally recognize the illegal secession of Croatia and Slovenia, the rest is history. In both cases of Yugoslavia's destruction, the root of it was the aggression of several great, hostile powers, the only difference being that this time, the aggressors were not entirely the same as those from the 1940s, and Yugoslavia was unfortunately defeated in this "reprisal". Foreign Aggression, not "tribal, ancient Balkan enmities and other neologisms killed this state. Yugoslavia existed for the better part of the 20th century, from the 1910s to the early 1990s in notable stability, barring minor incidents which the West blows vastly out of proportion to substantiate its premise of the abovementioned Balkanization - a neologism (that has fairly little substantiation in history and ethnography) they've invented for the mere purpose of justifying a number of aggressive and detrimental attempts of subverting the resurging Balkanite states of Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria, as a retaliation for the three's role in the defeat of the Ottoman Empire (the West's long-lasting ally), and the liberation of the whole peninsula of the aforementioned's rule. Serbia has especially earned the enmity of the Western powers as a result of her endeavors in WW1 which have shattered the Old World order and initiated a subsequent, yet steep withering of the traditional global, colonial powers of the world, and Yugoslavia has established its foreign policy on emancipating the Third World under its leadership and preventing the Western powers from re-establishing themselves as the governing body of its former colonies in Africa, Asia, and the Near East, thus effectively cutting them off from their vital wells of natural resources, thus relegating the West ever-further to the status of mere vassals of the USA.
These premises about the "weak economy" being the root of Yugoslavia's death are moot as well, in 1991, Yugoslavia was the world's 24th economy with a GDP of 120 billion, and a foreign debt of merely 18 billion - 15% of its GDP, it was a developed, powerful, global exporting economy: Mutual interactions between the two sides intensified in the late 1980s and early 1990s but all progress was cut off as of 25 November 1991 due to the wars in Slovenia and Croatia. Prior to the cut-off, Yugoslavia was the EEC's second largest trade partner in the Mediterranean area, just after Algeria, with 90% of industrial imports from Yugoslavia to the EEC not subject to any duty. Furthermore - in 1991, Yugoslavia had a higher GDP than Austria, South Africa, Indonesia, Argentina, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Romania, and Norway.
Great comment
Pffff. If ethnic tentions, nationalism and hatered werent at the core of the split, the west wouldnt be able to destroy us. The brotherhood thing was never as strong as propaganda said. If we didnt hate each other we wouldnt kill 100000 civilians brutally in the war, by somehow being coersed to do it by evil wast. Like Yugoslav people and soldiers were so dumb to start doing fucking genocide without majer hatred being already present.
Also what is with Ottoman empire being ally of the west? It was allied with france alone for a few centuries, and then with Germany and A-H in ww1. It was always at odds with most of the west.
Also about the economy, the official numbers of the strength of economy from the state were never honest.
If economy was truly that strong and there wasnt major ethic conflict the west wouldnt be able to destroy Yugoslavia
🤠💜
Where is Balkan *sniff*?
Just here for the 🍌 talk
The main reason yugoslavia broke up is because of tito himself
In what way?
@@waspwrap1235 he let serbian liberalism and croatian nationalism take root within the party and steer him into killing and destroying his best men replacing them with garbage it resulted in the 1974 constitution the single biggest catastrophe he regretted to the rest of his days, there was nothing he could have done but rot as a manipulated old man, he died in 1980 but he was a dead man from the mid 60s
on top of the fact that yugoslavia by the 50s gave up and wasnt socialist but a petite bourgeoisie capitalist state run by undisciplined people with no ideals a all around fuck up in talent molding that produced incompetent people in big rolls that they should have never filled
Socialism in Yugoslavia can be described as "Its wednesday? I am allowed to take the car to work today, but I cant afford the gas"
Workers self-management was the biggest joke, and thousands of villagers were forced to sell their land to the government and were moved into cities to work the factories which produced awful plastic goods and selfdestructing cars. After the war the country was divided into the so called općine and industry was given to incompetent paper pushers who had no idea what they were doing. People would sing stuff like "Comrade Tito where is our Wheat", and that could land you in jail or prisoner colonies. Tito wasnt a "Chad" either, he killed all of his friends and was a paranoid pedophile who was lucky to be in a position between the USSR and US.
If you want direct sources why socialism in Yugoslavia sucked ass just ask Milovan Đilas, a montenegrin partisan fighter and then general who lost his family to the Chetniks, served jail time for being a marxist, was Titos right hand and friend, president of the federal assembly and prime minister, but then published a book on how Titos Yugoslavia isn't Marxist, and got promptly removed from all of his position, proclaimed a traitor and jailed for 10+ years before he was allowed to be banished.
That's the power of Communist propaganda, right? Funny how Communists praise their dictators who crushed dissent, killed off opponents, kept the masses poor as "great leaders" but brand every democratically elected Western president/PM as pure 'evil'.
Djilas was as bad as Tito, he was literally a borgeoise democrat
@@ristekostadinov2820 He didnt kill his friends, wasnt a pedophile, and didn't betray his nation. If your only criticism of Djilas is "but hes anti-totalitarian", you need to rethink your life
@@LittleMushroomGuy you will have to provide evidence about the pedophilia, i responded to you by looking at the guy you suggest is a good source of Tito's Yugoslavia. I would say that Hoxha's criticism were orders of magnitude better. In terms of killing friends, the Tito-Stalin split wasn't a good era to be alive if you were suspicioned for supporting Stalin you would've been dead or in prison. In terms of Djilas you don't have to lie that he was 10+ years in jail (he was put in jail in 1955 and released in 1958 and allowed to leave the country in the mid 1960s). The way you talk about Yugoslavia is text book anti communist, sprinkle some truth and make up most of the shit.
Exactly. My great grandfather was in a german concentration camp in ww2, where they as inmates smuggled food to the political prisoner side. One of his comerades betrayed them, and my grandfather was punished and almost died from starvation before soviets came. After the war that traitor was pardoned and moved to a position of a tobbaco factory director instead of shot like he should have been. If you had alliances in the party you had priviliges it was no different then politics today. My great grandfather was so dissapointed he left the party in 47 saying that is not what he fought for, but he was smart to be quiet about it, if he wasnt it would be Goli otok for him. He was also in prison for taking a box of cigarets from said tobbaco company while a traitor sat at the top of the very company waith all the priviliges
but it is imperialism though...
This podcast made me want to eat a banana
Hey Yugopnik... are you kidding me that you actually fell for the "Yugoslav space program" prank? LOL dude...
Also, Yugoslavia fall apart because people were poor and politicians sold them nationalism as a meal. They gained huge power and money. The good old divide and conquer formula. I am sorry that Yugoslavia and its ideology(ies) are this much misrepresented. Yugoslavia was never really socialist. Yes, it was rhetoric only, but it was just Titoism - an experiment of taking from one to give it to the other (my uncle still has protected tenant on his property, 70 years later, and he vividly remembers Jeeps parked in front of his house with mistresses of inner party's member just walking out of the car and walking into the house to see if she liked it living there), of worshipping THE leader, forbidding single thought about him being just an uneducated dictator scum, socialist self-management that was full of corruption, producing literally nothing, while people painted their nails and drinking coffee, pretending to work, while taking home cheap union procurement chicken, and pork legs, vacationing in cheap worker motels at the Adriatic, Goli Otok island and shit... I mean the list is eternal! I, who love Marx and socialism and was born in Yugoslavia, can only have nostalgia for brotherhood and unity. But hey, that was the biggest lie out there since we managed to shit all over that credo. So, in short, it was fascism and state capitalism pretending to be socialism. (I closed the video at 35:16, I am sorry if maybe something of what I singled out has been actually addressed later)
You are right for the space program prank, but rest you said here is a pure yugophobia😑"producing literally nothing", are you for real? do you understand what this country did in development and emancipation in just a few decades?
@@utopicc are you serious? Socialist self-management produced something???!?!! Make a list, please. I'll wait.
And I mean "Yugophobia".... LOL ridiculousness overload.