The Limits of Social Democracy (Ft. Steve Grumbine)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
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In this episode of the 1Dime Radio podcast, I am joined by Steve Grumbine, founder of the RealProgressives non-profit and host of the Macro N Cheese podcast, a podcast focused on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) and left history. In this episode, we discuss the problems with modern Social Democracy and the Democratic Socialist movement and why social democrats and proponents of MMT would benefit from learning Marxist theory and a class analysis of politics. In part two, we discuss why Universal Basic Services (UBS) is a better policy than Universal Basic Income (UBI). Become a Patron to listen to it early!
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Outro Music by Karl Casey
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I too like UBS, and for most of my life I assumed that's what socdems were supposed to support as well. UBI is the last gasp of neoliberalism, it's a glaring admission of capitalism's complete dysfunction.
A book called "The Economic Interpretation of the US Constitution" by Charles A. Beard (1913) does explain that the original Constitution was written in the interest of wealthy landowners and wealthy slaveholders and to protect their private property. That first document resulted in Shay's Rebellion. What placated most people was the Bill of Rights written later on.
I agree that the Constitution was written to control ordinary people. However, there is Article 5 (the Amendment clause) did bring some changes to the Constitution which resulted from mass pressure from the public which took years and had to be ratified by 38 states out of the current 50--there were less states in the past and I wanted to simplify what it would take today. Moreover, there are people who have the idea that using Article 5 would result in a complete system change from capitalism to socialism--a revisionist concept from the early 20th century. The capitalist class, who are united in their own interests, will pull out all the stops to prevent such a thing from happening.
I also agree that money is a unit of measure but I will have to look into MMT on the nuts and bolts of the concept. I also understand that labor time is included in that measure. The lower phase of Communism (aka socialism) will also have to use a form of measure of labor time. That is why I agree with Professor Paul Cockshott's computer use of a planned economy and cyber labor time credits that don't circulate like money. See his TH-cam channel for details.
Another absolutely great one! I swear I'll get on the Patreon (with backpay) soon. Thanks so much for having Grumbine on.
I've followed him for quite a while and of all the MMT-Marxist types, I think I'm most consistently in agreement with him, in part because he's so profoundly open-minded (but not naive or unprincipled). Gramsci's term absolutely fits him like a glove.
I love Steve and all the dedication he's given to the education of us all on how the economy functions
Leftist unity is a myth, but Anti-Sectarianism is not.
I am Not a Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, Trotskyist, I'm a person whom reads all these people and many more, and I love it and it should be this way!
I believe the single biggest issue we have right now is that people, for some very odd reason, aren't capable of actually organizing in solidarity. We need to fix this as soon as possible...
If we can figure out how to get a large swath of the Western population to organize, and properly plan for different scenarios that may occur due to said organizing and its potential actions, then we'll be on our way to making this world a far better place for humankind.
One can dream, right..?
Is it odd or is that your naivete? It you are American, you are probably the descendant of slave owners. Capital slave owners. Everything about your country is a about profit. This is being beaten into your heads since childhood. Individualism, individualism,. individualism. Anyone who questions that is a Communist, or perhaps a terrorist or Hamas. It's perfectly understandable that human beings don't how to organize themselves, but don't confuse that with capability. People are capable of organizing.
There’s no singular particular reason why this isn’t happening, but I feel a large reason for the _disorganization_ in particular is social media. So much revolutionary fervor but there’s no discernible organized outlet to foment that radicalization. Whereas in the past if you wanted to get organized there would be regimented organizations that would have actionable agendas.
We just need to start communities of practice of learning and experienenfatin
The spaces we rely on for communication are owned and controlled by people and institutions with their own interest and reliances.
Public space that we occupy and in which we can organize through our bodily selves has lost a lot of significance ... how many interactions do you have on a single day that allow for finding common sense?
Definitely really enjoying this one, and I like this Steve guy. I will be checking that Pt 2, and be checking out Steve’s podcast too. 🙏
this dude is very well spoken, easy yo understand. good interview. and a align with all of the stuff he said, i just didnt have the vocab for it
thank you for your insights
I believe the issue with the other historian was his implication that slavery wasn't necessary for the establishment of the United States, not that he didn't think it was a bad thing.
You touched on the concept of common sense and how it's synonymous with ideology, in our current paradigm that of the bourgeois. Have you already done an in-depth episode on this in particular. If not, it'd be great if you would.
Keep up the educational work. Defo planning on reading Liberal Totalitarianism: The Spectrum of Managed Democracy and What Makes the US Different. ✊
Great episode, looking forward to part 2! I have a question about MMT: does it apply to countries in Europe where the states do not have direct control of the money supply? I'd think not, and probably getting control of the central bank is where the political struggle should be focused on
MMT describes all countries but such countries you describe which are part of the EU are currency users which cannot create their own currency and thus must tax or borrow from the Central Bank of Europe to fund spending. Currency issuers like the US, UK, Canada, China, Japan, Russia, etc. face no financial constraints in their own currency. However, they face resource constraints (i.e. land, labor and raw materials) and can set off demand-pull inflation if they spend more into the real economy than what it is able to produce and import in goods and services.
@@86blackberrywhite I see, so basically in order to actually be able to "use" MMT for policy, a country needs to control its money supply
@@eymerich9237 MMT at its core is simply a description of how currencies work. It is entirely apolitical. How a currency-issuing govt. spends its currency is entirely a political decision based on the views of those who are in control of issuing it. But yes, when a nation arbitrarily gives up its monetary sovereignty in favor of another currency that it does not issue, it's generally a recipe for needless austerity.
Admittedly, getting me personally behind MMT will be pretty hard as money has never made any sense to me, no matter how many explanations I've heard. It is so bizarrely abstract and unintuitive. Nothing about it resonates. Some of us are dumb that way. Class conflict I get; money I don't. In any event, I'm not confident that the truth getting out will make much difference. If I've learned anything over the last decade, it's that truth matters very little in practice. People say we shouldn't surrender to doomerism, but I've yet to hear any good reason why not to either -- or at least a reason that's actually resonated with me. And therein lies my other stumbling block! When there is so much information, it's almost impossible now to figure out what to believe and what not. I only have so many hours in the day, and I can't be an expert in everything. It's exhausting, so you pull away and just try to get by while everyone fights and makes speeches. The only thing I know is that cost of living is always getting worse while my income doesn't go up, and there aren't really any safety nets under me. At that point, understanding MMT doesn't seem like a priority. :(
I understand how frustrating it is not to completely understand concepts on certain subjects but I don't think you are dumb at all. I see money as a tool of the capitalists, and before capitalism, on exploiting man by man. I have only concern myself lately to understanding Marxist Leninism on how it works and to raise class consciousness which includes painting a picture of a new system of a computer based planned economy (which works better than a market oriented system) and the unit of measure of computer based cyber labor time credits which does not circulate like money. Also, the workers would control the political state in their own interests and the new economy as well. Moreover, we have to understand revisionism, which is the introduction of capitalist concepts into Marxism, and how to combat it.
Steve!!!! Hell yeah!
《 Arrays of nanodiodes promise full conservation of energy》
A simple rectifier crystal can, iust short of a replicatable long term demonstration of a powerful prototype, almost certainly filter the random thermal motion of electrons or discrete positiive charged voids called holes so the electric current flowing in one direction predominates. At low system voltage a filtrate of one polarity predominates only a little but there is always usable electrical power derived from the source Johnson Nyquest thermal electrical noise. This net electrical filtrate can be aggregated in a group of separate diodes in consistent alignment parallel creating widely scalable electrical power. As the polarity filtered electrical energy is exported, the amount of thermal energy in the group of diodes decreases. This group cooling will draw heat in from the surrounding ambient heat at a rate depending on the filtering rate and thermal resistance between the group and ambient gas, liquid, or solid warmer than absolute zero. There is a lot of ambient heat on our planet, more in equatorial dry desert summer days and less in polar desert winter nights.
Refrigeration by the principle that energy is conserved should produce electricity instead of consuming it.
Focusing on explaining the electronic behavior of one composition of simple diode, a near flawless crystal of silicon is modified by implanting a small amount of phosphorus on one side from a ohmic contact end to a junction where the additive is suddenly and completely changed to boron with minimal disturbance of the crystal pattern. The crystal then continues to another ohmic contact.
A region of high electrical resistance forms at the junction in this type of diode when the phosphorous near the ĵunction donates electrons that are free to move elsewhere while leaving phosphorus ions held in the crystal while the boron donates a hole which is similalarly free to move. The two types of mobile charges mutually clear each other away near the junction leaving little electrical conductivity. An equlibrium width of this region is settled between the phosphorus, boron, electrons, and holes. Thermal noise is beyond steady state equlibrium. Thermal transients where mobile electrons move from the phosphorus added side to the boron added side ride transient extra conductivity so they are filtered into the external circuit. Electrons are units of electric current. They lose their thermal energy of motion and gain electromotive force, another name for voltage, as they transition between the junction and the array electrical tap.
Aloha
Shut up and take my money
If I had a dollar every time y’all said mmt 😂 love your work
@56:40 It's not that getting enough pro working class people in office is impossible, but as an emergent property of elections themselves, the most common denominator among people in office is wealth or indebtedness to wealth.
Any system that elects leaders gives an edge to those who can afford more effective campaigns.
The solution, imho, is sortition. Specifically, my favorite method is multi-body sortition as proposed by Terry Bouricius.
@1DimeRadio Thanks for your work! I would love to see Terry on this podcast.
th-cam.com/video/rqWWCzbcttc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=KFvcFyR-N8jfPpzp
State and local taxes do fund spending; It is Federal taxes that do not fund spending. Be specific to avoid misunderstanding.
Fck i also started as rightwing untill i learnt abt mmt😅
I also was raised as a right wing person until I got my trauma dx and then questioned litterally every idea I ever had go through my head. I just want to create a sort of polyvagal oriented and attatchment influenced community of practice that focused on a sort of constructive hopelessness because the hopelessness is in relation to structure of life and the constructive is in relation to getting emotional needs met. The reason in part indigenous cultures are looked at highly by many smart people as well as others is because if you look at a lot of representation of it, they have polyvagal theory based interventions all over and they do it together. There is much more to those cultures to how their language works etc, and the best def of colonization I heard was it taught people via language and concepts and incentives that everything is seperate. And you go from that to seeing your oxen as a tool to farm that you beat to eventually “Human Resources” to eventually having slavery.
Socialism describes a government’s political /economic structure. Socialism is the public ownership and central control of the means-of-production and investment whether administered by self-appointed elites or administered democratically.
Regulation is not ownership. Means-of-production is defined as investment in and the mass-production of factory goods since the industrial revolution and not crafts, mercantilism, or trade.
Will you ever have any Social Democrats or "Democratic Socialists" (DSA-type) on to press them on to interview and press them on certain subjects since you said you weren't a sectarian?
I had Matt McManus on and kind of pressed him a bit when bringing up the Salvador Allende experience. I forget if it was in the public part or in the backroom episode. I definitely plan on having more. A lot of the MMT people I have interviewed before are social democrats but I didn't "press them" much because the topic was more focused on explaining MMT
@@1DimeRadio
Great to hear, honestly would be a delight to hear more conversations between more historical-materialist/ Marxist driven thinkers like yourself and the more mainstream democratic socialist/social democrat tendency in the left. Found this channel recently and I appreciate it alot.
Idk where Steve is from, but that accent is very familiar, enough so that he’s got to be from either PA, Maryland, or maybe southwestern Ohio… Baltimore? Philly? The Burgh? Where are you from, Steve?
Edit: Ok, I got to the “I live in Pennsylvania”, so that kinda answers that. Idk where you’re from, and you ding gotta say if you don’t want to, Steve, but I’m from Pittsburgh, and I kinda had a hunch you might be from this corner of the state.. Haven’t heard you say, “yinz”, yet, so idk.. lol ✌️
DC native, Current Harrisburg/York PA :)
@@RealProgressInActioncool cool! I just edited my comment to say I thought maybe around Pittsburgh (where I’m from), but frankly accents from the major cities/metros of this area of the country seem to have a lot in common. Never noticed DC area having as much in common, but idk many ppl from that area, so that’s cool.
I lived out kinda close to York county for a while.. well, Chambersburg area (small town called Mont Alto), but we used to take route 30 through all those towns all the way to Philly, and I liked exploring bits of York county when I could. Been in Harrisburg many times, mainly taking Amtrak.
Idk why I’m going into all this crap, practically doxxing myself, but my point is I kinda know your area from exploring a lot in my youth. Cheers! 🙏✌️
Edit: PS really enjoyed this, Steve. Idk if you’ve ever been on TiR pod, but if you have, that may be why you’re familiar. That, or it’s bc the accent and feeling like you’re a neighbor, but either way I never checked out your podcast, and definitely will be after this. I’m off to check out Pt 2, this is really a great conversation! 🙏✌️
The reluctance of American leftists to use their country's history to their advantage is that is the product of a settler-colonialist project that would have no right to exist in a truly just world. Also, the revolution that produced the US as a nation-state was one of the few that managed to include almost zero aspects of social revolution outside of nullifying obligations to a monarch. Compare that to Latin America, where the crimes of colonialism were just as intense, but social revolution was at the forefront in both Mexico and the various South American theaters, regardless of how successfully any social revolution was actually implemented. The social DNA of their revolutions makes it easier for the left to invoke their spirit
I think leftists fetishize Latin America and the third world too much. By this kind of moralistic logic, a country like Brazil also has no right to exist, let alone Argentina, who treated their indigenous population even worse than the Americans and Canadians did. I mean, they literally killed them all, yet for some reason more leftists these countries a pass. In reality, what matters is less the language and aesthetics of a political movement (which are important more for strategically appealing to the broad mass), and more so the substance of what that politics aims to do. If the policies are racist and jingoistic then thats a problem. But if appealing to the liberal values of the revolution and the enlightenment more broadly are considered by the “left” to be bad by definition, then the Left is shooting itself in the foot.
He discovered how money was just a "unit of measure". He could have saved himself sooo much time reading only the first chapter of Das Kapital
"It is not money that renders commodities commensurable. Just the contrary. It is because all commodities, as values, are realised human labour, and therefore commensurable, that their values can be measured by one and the same special commodity, and the latter be converted into the common measure of their values, i.e., into money. Money as a measure of value, is the phenomenal form that must of necessity be assumed by that measure of value which is immanent in commodities, labour-time".
Santa Claus
Most people don't read Marx. I suspect Grumbine came to him second-or-third-hand --- at least initially. How much of Marx he's read in the original, I can only guess.
@paulkesler1744 i have read/listened to Engels, Marx, lenin, Luxemburg, Gramsci and Kropotkin amoungst many others. I have also studied Abba Lerner, Friedrich Knapp, Michal Kalecki as well. Ultimately Volumes 1-3 were a tough slog so I listened to a lot of David Harvey amongst others to fill in gaps and add context.
We are all learning.
Perhaps all of us are still not full cups, yes?
@@RealProgressInAction Steve, I greatly admire your work, so my comment wasn't meant to sound pejorative. If so, my apologies. I've covered some (not all) of the material you have. Chomsky, Parenti, and Zinn were my biggest mentors, but could mention many others. In any case, I have you to thanks for exposing me to MMT. My "trajectory" was similar to yours, although I didn't start out as far right as yourself. But there was a time (about 15 years ago) when I still took Alex Jones seriously. That didn't last long, but only goes to show that political and economic education can be pretty tough sledding in a country as ideologically warped as ours. Keep up the good work!
What's said around 42:30 is blatantly incorrect. Marx and did understand money. What you have to know, is that most major currencies of Marx's day were still Gold Standard, commodity currency. Fiat money existed then, but was still in the process of replacing the Gold Standard as the predominant form of money...
"Blatantly"...😒
Thank you Tony
Hey dude everybody thinks they're evidence-based...
Yeah, depending on where you're getting your "evidence." Even bible-bangers play this game --- like, "MY evidence is in the book of Ezekiel, or Corinthians II." Which is fine as long as you're ignoring the evidence in Jeremiah or Matthew. Or --- "My Jehovah's Witness bible is better than you're King James bible, and here's why..." Still, there's such a thing as scientific evidence, but you need to put it in context to see if it stands up (or doesn't).
@@paulkesler1744 there is no truth without interpretation.
@@virtue_signal_ Granted, but as the logicians would say, interpretation is a necessary, but not sufficient factor when ascertaining truth.
@@paulkesler1744 but then, what is truth?
@virtue_signal_ a worthwhile question.
Truth always depends on context.
You can TELL the truth, as you perceive it, but that doesn't mean it's actually true.
We don't know the ultimate truth, nor if there even is one.
Quantum mechanics and an inability to measure things that are sufficiently small shows us we can't know certaint truths.
But if I tell you something I believe honestly, that's telling the truth.
All is this comes down to language and context.
We just want healthcare and UBI
That's all you want?
How do things really change when there's a UBI?
Is that going to prevent techno feudalism?
What is a small handout worth when the ruling class still has infinitely more wealth and power than the average person?
Clickbait: Nothing about Social Democracy; it's all about MMT
It's a 2 parter and it does talk about history and revolution.
You lied.
Fix it
@@RealProgressInAction It seems that you have no idea of the meanings of words.
"Lying is to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive." Nothing to fix.
what? you can't speak about palestinian genocide without speaking about 13 October. i think mmt's understanding of money is preindustrial, precapitalist... as capital and money aren't the same. mmt is a good description of how government works.. but isn't quite correct describing our society.. even by including some bourgeois understanding of class struggle (isn't a marxian understanding of class struggle to say that is just a struggle for more "good stuff" for workers... the marxian view is the necessity of trascending capitalism [and the possibility of doing that])
Its cool to be ignorant. Nothing wrong with that. But here we are. You do not understand money.