Conan didn't have much of a chance to build his audience, so it's not really fair to just say he wasnt doing well. Nor is it fair to say he had a hissy fit. It worked out: Conan is a comedic genius who landed on his feet
@@justinsandberg9546 It's true that Conan was expected to hit the ground running as it were, but we have to remember that by 2009 *NBC* wasn't the powerhouse that it had been in the early 90's when Jay took over. They may simply not have been able to afford to be as patient with his slow progress. And in the end, it was Conan who chose to resign.
A lot changed in the entire generation between those start dates though. A lot less competition for your viewers to go elsewhere back in 1992. You really can't compare. Just like how the Film business changed, the music biz, etc.
Conan went to TBS and even then his views was no where near what Leno was pulling in and on top of that TBS did cancel him because of low views.. don't get me wrong Conan is a great writer (some of the best ep of the Simpsons was written by him) but he sort of a hit and miss when it comes to hosting a talk show..
Conan had 11 years on TBS and he still only drew a niche audience. And when he finally got cancelled, his ratings were downright embarrassing, like 200K viewers versus the millions a late night host ought to draw. Talk about going out with a whimper.
The issue for Conan would be doing a 12:05 AM show still called The Tonight Show isn't doing The Tonight Show. It's the next morning show. A show at 12:05 AM isn't drawing what a show at 11:35 PM is drawing. I imagine a lot of people just watch the opening monologue, the following banter, maybe hear a bit of what first guest is saying, and drift off to sleep because they need to wake up and go to work the next day. With Jay coming in and doing something for 30 minutes, for Conan it's (rightly) "what is even the point of me being here?"
@@isaacg2721 Well... TBS did cut his show's budget year after year. Eliminating the band and certain bits. Eventually reduced to a half-hour format. And then canning him in the end. All so he could tie or do worse than NBC's 1:30 AM show: Last Call with Carson Daly. Also, he bumped George Lopez to the 12 midnight hour AND got the Lopez Tonight show canceled the following year.
@@bradleymaravalli2851 The long term result may not have been what he or the network wanted, but that took years to unfold. I applaud him having enough self respect to not snivel and grovel and cater to whatever the NBC suits deemed worthy at the time.
I love how on the one hand Jay is the ever-active mastermind responsible for keeping the Tonight Show #1 but in the Conan story he's this passive "okay, I guess I'll just do what you guys say" guy. It ain't both.
"The War For Late Night" by Bill Carter makes it clear that replacing Jay with Conan, and then reversing themselves to keep Jay and bump Conan was all the work of *NBC* head of programming Jeff Zucker. And Jay didn't know a thing about Conan's deal to get "The Tonight Show" until it had been signed by Conan and the network.
@@gallery7596 I don't dispute that, I just dispute this "Well, Ok guys if that's what you want" take from Jay. He can't be the micromanaging mastermind of a show one moment and the cool dude just being ok with everything the next.
@@ronbent Is it unfathomable that someone can be very good at his job and not being a manipulative bxxxx outside of it? We don't know the truth, and I totally get your distrust of this one counter attack after all those years. But I've got good reason to believe the facture part of the interview is actually what happened. Tons of people I followed, J.Rogan, Loius CK, they have nice thing to say about Jay and said he caught a lot of unnecessary fire. And what's more, the guy stayed quiet through all of it. I've never seen a guity one stayed quiet like this.
It always makes me laugh that Leno's fans think he would be able to stay alive in the cutthroat world of television by being this nice, pure, wonderful person. They are BLIND.
It was NBC's fault. Not Leno. NBC were the real cause of "The Tonight Show" debacle. Here's what really happened: In 2004, Conan was getting offers from other networks to do a show at an earlier hour. NBC (at that time) feared losing him, so they offered to drop Jay at the end of his contract if Conan would stay and take over "The Tonight Show", but in 2009. Conan agreed. Jay couldn't change it, so he didn't complain. But by 2009, Jay's ratings were still strong, and ABC wanted to hire him. NBC panicked and offered Jay a prime time show at 10:00pm. So Conan takes over "The Tonight Show" and almost immediately he starts losing to Letterman. Then, Jay's new prime time show premieres 3 months later and soon he is tanking in the ratings as well. NBC decides to put Jay back at 11:35pm, but just for half an hour, and Conan's "Tonight Show" would begin at midnight. Jay asked if he could be let out of his contract, but NBC said no. Conan didn't get along with NBC and HATED the idea of "TTS" starting at midnight. So, he took a buy out and left. Jay returned to "TTS" and after a rocky start, the show went back to #1. While many of Conan's fans continued to blame Jay for what happened, it was really NBC that sent everything into a tailspin in late night.
Not what happened. Conan could not get offers from anyone since he was still under contract to NBC. NBC went to Conan's agent to talk new contract. Conan's agent told NBC "we will not re-sign unless you give Conan The Tonight Show". NBC never offered to drop Jay. NBC was put into a corner with the demand and they panicked. NBC agreed to Conan's demand BEFORE they even talked to Jay about it.
"so they offered to drop Jay at the end of his contract if Conan would stay and take over "The Tonight Show", but in 2009. Conan agreed. J" No, no, no. Don't do that. Conan blackmailed NBC into giving him Leno's job. They didn't just offer him Leno's job on their own initiative. Come on.
I was hoping they would also take about the "exclusive dealing" demands made by Leno's executive producer in the 90s, which helped drive Dennis Miller's show to cancellation: "He brought longtime manager Helen Kushnick to serve as executive producer and booking agent. Kushnick was extremely loyal to Leno and fiercely competitive with anyone who challenged his success. Even before Leno’s hosting debut on May 22, 1992, she had made it clear to prospective guests everywhere: Do another late-night show and you’ll never be invited on The Tonight Show." (Source: Ultimate Classic Rock)
You mean someone at a private, for profit company like NBC made the business decision that was in the best interest for their company at the time? Shocker. The question is, why WOULDN'T she do that if the Tonight Show had that much clout at the time. She would be doing a disservice to her own show. It's a business not a government sponsored charity. If you didn't like her rules as an actor/agent fine, go play elsewhere and you didn't have to have her in your life. Done. I bet you have rules for who you let in your home too eh Ben? Or do you just let acquaintances do whatever they want in your home?
@@RipperFromYT First, there is a HUGE difference between having rules for when someone is in my home, and demanding that they ONLY visit my home. To say "I am your only friend" and then expect people to respect that demand is a bit neurotic. Putting that aside, private pro-profit companies are still subject to antitrust laws, and exclusive dealing can be illegal under U.S. antitrust laws. It looks like Leno's practices probably did not meet the conditions to break those laws because they still faced substantial competition from Letterman, and they did not seem to hurt Arsenio Hall much. Nonetheless, the intent of exclusive dealing in this case is clearly to substantially reduce competition in the market for late-night talk shows, and therefore hurt consumers of this type of content for the profit of a business that was already highly successful. I don't usually care so much about morals because everyone has different morals, so I will not get into that otherwise relevant issue. I only look at it from an economic and legal perspective, and at least economically, the behaviour of Leno's people was anti-competitive and anti-consumer. P.S. I made no value judgement for these practices in my original comment. I just pointed out that I would have liked to hear them talk about it, since it related to the subject. I therefore do not understand why you took it so personally.
Leno was smart enough to know Kushnick was overstepping her bounds and that his nice-guy image would be shot to hell eventually if he didn't give her the boot. She did what she had to do in the business and he did the same. No harm, no foul. But blackballing guests from doing other shows is a sign of insecurity and would have only served to hinder Jay in the long run, so she might have thought she was doing right but she f*cked up. I found it sweet that during the Carson tenure, Ed McMahon and Carson would both suggest guests for Arsenio Hall because they knew those guests were perfect for his show and not for the Tonight Show audience. That's how you do it.
Miller was, indeed, steamed with Jay for a while and vented freely about it, too. Then one night Miller said he watched himself on some show railing against Jay and thought "what am I teaching my kid?" So, he called Jay, they talked it out and the feud ended. Jay even had Miller on as a frequent "Tonight Show" guest, and when Jay was getting pummeled in the media over the Conan debacle, Miller actually spoke up for Jay and talked about what a good man he is. I wish Conan would call Jay and see if they, too could talk it over and find a way to put it behind them.
Jay gets a few details incorrect (SJ was making $85k per year at Stern when he left, not $35k--and he was still employed at K-Rock when NBC offered him the gig), but that aside, I'm happy you got the chance to pull some of this out of him. Jay taking the high road when he has the nukes to truly bury Stern is admirable but misguided; the one time Jay appeared live on Stern, Howard was completely flustered and all over the place because he can't take direct confrontation. Jay by that point had played every dive bar and club in the country and was fearless on the mic. Complete mismatch.
+volvoplz In 2008, Jay (still #1) was certainly being courted by ABC to be Jimmy Kimmel's lead-in. That's what panicked NBC into offering Leno a prime time show at 10:00pm. But after the prime time show tanked I don't recall Bill Carter mentioning in his book that Jay was getting such offers. In 2009 (after the cancellation of the prime time show), Jay was offered a new 30 minute show that would move Conan's "Tonight Show" to midnight. Jay was not immediately sold on that plan, which prompted him and his producer to ask if it would be possible for them to be released from their contracts. NBC told them that wasn't going to happen. That's what went down there.
I watched this out of curiosity, because I stopped being a Leno fan after the second Late Night debacle. His justifications don't hold water. He was always blatantly careerist, so he shouldn't be so bemused that his attitude breeds resentment. To me Dave and Conan are far more likable, and Conan in particular is far funnier. And as for "work ethic," no one can say with a straight face that they don't have one. Each of them ran popular shows for multiple decades, and continue to work today (Dave on Netflix, Conan with his fantastic podcast and soon, HBOMax).
Letterman was a pretty sexist and had history of sexual history, and his attitude has always been I deserve more! Self-deprecation will hide all my problems! As much as I love conan, and enjoyed lettermans early non-cranky old man years - both of their shows never worked at 11:35. I watched Conan's Tonight Show - it never worked, just look at the norm interviews on Late Night vs Tonight Show - it wasn't until the end of the show when he knew he was cancelled and done that he went off the rails.. It also goes to show how much censorship doesn't work.
Literally everyone at Letterman was afraid and intimidated of Dave. What a great creative environment! When you realize that Dave spent most of his time trying to nail every woman in the building, while Jay was actually working on his show and building his career, you understand why Jay was the King of late night. The idea that Dave is more ‘likeable’ than Jay is insane.
Need to correct Jay Leno , stuttering John was still working for Howard Stern . Stuttering John used radio station equipment to do is audition. If Howard offered Stuttering John more money, he might still be there.
He wasn’t talented at all. Why should he offer him more money. Jay Leno stole so much from Howard Stern that he hired Stuttering John to pick his brain and use him
I love Jay defending himself. I totally get what he's saying why he didn't back in the day but sad that doing that let the other side drive the story/narrative for all these years pretty much. Letterman was one of the vocal ones on the other side yet as much as I love David as well as Jay, David seems by far to have been the bigger prick to people. Hey Jay, can I come see your Miura's in person? :D
Letterman was doing VERY inappropriate things with his female staff members while trying to talk about morals and Leno... Letterman did admit on Oprah about him doing that stuff and getting blackmailed out of a fortune.. a few yrs ago Leno did an interview and he revealed that it didn't matter who it was (intern, staff, guess etc) anytime he would have a meeting with someone he would ALWAYS leave his office door open...
@@dunhillsupramk3 Actually, Letterman talked about him having an affair with Stephanie Burkette on his show ( though he didn't mention her by name) and the attempted blackmail. He never gave in to the blackmailer. Maybe he talked about it on Oprah, but he revealed the scandal on his own show first.
@@dekelanson5280 Yes, but Dave was a victim of blackmail, so the FBI had become involved. Therefore, it was going to be made public anyway. Dave wanted to make sure he got his side of it out there before the media got ahold of the story.
I always loved Jay Leno. Even though hated by many, he treated his guests with respect unlike Letterman. More than any other late-night hosts Leno supported a genuine comic when they came on the show. He also behaved to fans with consideration.
Jay even said at the beginning of this podcast that for the first 18 months of HIS own Tonight Show (after Carson retired) he was behind in the ratings, behind Letterman. Fast forward to when Conan takes over, he also has a similar ratings slump during that transition, but they canceled him in seven months. Jay should have given Conan's show his blessing, and stayed away or gone to a competing network if he felt wronged by NBC. Imagine had Carson come back 7 months after "retiring" because Leno was behind Letterman (which he actually was) Team Coco.
Yes, the person sitting in that chair does not anoint themselves the host. Always makes me chuckle when somebody says something like "Jay shouldn't have gotten the show because Johnny wanted Dave." It was immaterial who Johnny wanted. He didn't own "The Tonight Show." NBC chooses who hosts it.
Remember when Conan went to TBS and bumped George Lopez? That always rubbed me wrong about Conan. He did the exact thing he was pissed off at Leno for.
*TBS* encouraged Lopez to publicly endorse Conan taking over his time slot- just as *NBC* wanted Jay to congratulate Conan years earlier when it was announced that he was getting "The Tonight Show." Conan really is pretty naive if he thought both guys actually wanted to be moved aside for him.
Jay has the sweetest Dodge Challenger, not sure if he has several editions, but I remember those episodes like they were yesterday. Really enjoyed watching him drive around in that car. What a ride....
What are you talking about? This "I love Jay Leno" shit didn't start until a few years after his second time as The Tonight Show host came to end. Through the nineties and 2000s everyone made fun of what a weak, boring show it was. And it was lame and crappy. Now that doesn't mean it wasn't popular, which was Jay's goal. But it was popular in the way McDonalds is popular but no one would call McDonalds the ""king of hamburgers".
+Aron Crillco In 2008, Jay (still #1) was certainly being courted by ABC to be Jimmy Kimmel's lead-in. That's what panicked NBC into offering Leno a prime time show at 10:00pm. But after the prime time show tanked I don't recall Bill Carter mentioning in his book that Jay was getting such offers. In 2009 (after the cancellation of the prime time show), Jay was offered a new 30 minute show that would move Conan's "Tonight Show" to midnight. Jay was not immediately sold on that plan, which prompted him and his producer to ask if it would be possible for them to be released from their contracts. NBC told them that wasn't going to happen. That's what went down there.
He tried. NBC refused to let him out of his contract, blatantly breaching it. NBC gave him the prime time slot to prevent him from suing them for breach of contract.
I didnt get Rolling Stones tickets by one call back in the day when people called for tickets. I want to say around 1990. They answered and said you were one off tje correct call we want to give you Howie tickets at the star casino. I hung up.
Imagine if Conan tried to push Letterman out like he did with Leno. For whatever reason people were comfortable with shitting on Jay, but this poor Conan BS needs to be put to bed, and I'm a big Conan fan.
Because Conan successfully whipped up his fan base with a BS story. Conan spuon it completely to make himself look like an innocent victim when he got Jay fired in the first place.
Yes, if Dave had been informed he was going to be dropped at the end of his contract to make room for Conan, it's hard to imagine him being a good sport and publicly wishing Conan well like Jay did. And that might've been Dave's fate if he'd accepted *NBC's* last minute offer to stay and host "The Tonight Show."
To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe Jay didn't mean to intentionally hurt Conan's ratings, but Jay being in primetime at 10 PM did inadvertently drain viewers from Conan. So Conan was understandably upset about that. But ultimately, Jay's right that most people don't really care *that* much about millionaire conflicts, and that it's probably time to let it go. I do think both Conan and Jay have moved on. Who knows, maybe they've reconciled behind the scenes 🤷♂️
No, Jay is full of shit when he says that. Of course people care, and Jay knows this. That's why there are two number one books about it, hundreds of articles, a made for TV movie, and not to mention people are still talking about it. That is Jay's underhanded crafty nature. He is well aware of the popularity of the feud, but he acts like he is passive. I like Jay but he's full of shit.
I thought local news ratings dropped because Leno didn’t have good ratings. People wanted drama or crime shows. Maybe I remember it wrong. Would have been better for Leno to not do late night and change it up. His car show is great.
John literally put zero effort into his show (that he pre-taped in 5 minutes) and barely worked at the Stern Show. For what he did, he was paid beyond well. He had all the opportunities in the world, and squandered all of them.
There's nothing here we didn't know. There's no misunderstandings. If somebody is pissing on someone but it just happens to benefit you, the thing is you don't go along with it, and then put your hands up in the air and claim it wasn't you. You are enabling poor behavior. Claiming otherwise has zero integrity
The point was jay took away Conan’s thunder by coming in before him. Conan would have bounced back after a couple months if he had been given the chance. But he wasn’t given the chance to recover because Jay swept in and changed the whole dynamic.
+Jess Marie NBC made the decision to replace Jay with Conan. Then they reversed themselves and begged Jay to stay. They cancelled his show after 3 months. They decided bumping Conan to midnight with a 30 minute Leno show was a good idea. They wouldn't let Jay out of his contract. They wouldn't even let Conan do his string dance at 11:35pm. Blame NBC. If you read Bill Carter's book, 'The War for Late Night', it explain all the details about "The Tonight Show" debacle.
Wrong. Jay did nto premiere for months after Conan started. It is beyond naive to think he would have rebounded because his "comedy" would not fly with an audience that was fully grown on Jay & Johnny. Conan ruined himself. Karma for getting Jay fired in the first place.
Conan draws viewers by the hundreds of thousands. Networks want/need Millions of viewers in that 11:30 pm slot. Conan has niche audience that really likes him but he's not mainstream.
RE: "The point was jay took away Conan’s thunder by coming in before him." But Conan was failing on his own before Jay's prime time show had even premiered. RE: "Conan would have bounced back after a couple months if he had been given the chance." Maybe, but we can't know for sure what would've happened. Even the ratings for his *TBS* show dropped noticeably after it premiered. When does Conan have to take some responsibility? RE: "But he wasn’t given the chance to recover because Jay swept in and changed the whole dynamic." Jay was there because *NBC* made him an offer. They're ultimately responsible for their line-up.
I always blamed the network for that debacle, and I thought most people did. Jay was better than Letterman and Conan in that time slot because he gave it to you straight. He didn’t put any odd spin on his jokes. Remember, that time slot followed the late local news. Plus I always got the impression Dave was a bit of a perv
Some executive promised Conan early on that he would get the tonight show, and when Leno never faltered in ratings, Conan threw a tantrum in the press. Bring back Leno, get rid of Fallon
the thing about Leno he was politically neutral (he made fun of both left and right when they did stupid stuff), but Fallon went HARD left and its almost like watching a propaganda film.. that is when i stopped watching Fallon..
Jay is leaving out that his 10pm numbers were horrible as well, as was the local news. The the Conan’s numbers didn’t start to go down until Jay started his show.
Howie needs to try decaf. My gawd, he interrupts his guests so often, and in this interview he speaks probably 60 percent of the time, actually TELLING US WHAT JAY DID. When he has Jay Leno sitting on his couch in front of a microphone. His daughter finally calls him out. I want to like Howie's podcast, because he gets some interesting guests. But I am failing to see any depth or self awareness from Howie. He is clueless.
I always believed Jay; and I love his attitude about the situation. I can’t stand Letterman’s stupid comments over the years; that guy is a total mess and one unhappy dude. And Conan with his Harvard education doesn’t get it.
Blame the network. They decided it made sense to pull Jay from "The Tonight Show" when he was still #1 while Conan was occasionally being beaten by Ferguson at 12:35am. Then they put him into prime time so he wouldn't go to *ABC.*
American late-night could sure use a new Leno or Carson these days - a funny guy who converses with celebrities. The political punditry and negativity has become unwatchable.
My understanding is he didn't want it anyway. A large part of these late night shows (especially late era) is that the guests are extremely scripted. It's not entertainment, it's an ad for other movies/products dressed up as entertainment. Ferguson never followed those scripts. You'd never see "mouth organ or awkward silence" play out on the Tonight Show regularly without the host getting terfed.
@@IkbalHussainBBD People really don't understand how amazing Letterman's contract was. Dude owned 2 hours of a network channel 5 times a week! That will never happen again
Indeed, but television was a lot different when Jay took over (far less competition and a lot of people didn't even have computers in the home yet). *NBC* had a lot more prime time hits boosting their profits, too. Conan had the misfortune of taking over during what was then the biggest economic recession since the Great Depression. The network may simply not have been able to afford to give Conan as much time to prove himself.
Jay should wear his haters like a badge of honor. Letterman became a seriously unhappy/cranky man on the air, not to mention all the left wing crap he started to spew. And Conan would have never worked on The Tonight Show, he looked strange, acted stranger and was never close to the middle of the road sensibility needed for that show.
If NBC was smart it would have put Jay at midnight, and never would have made Conan show be massively moved during sporting events, and never would have switched them over during the Winter Olympics. Conan was setup to fail by NBC, and Jay Leno willingness to comeback to the show was no help. But I don't blame NBC for Firing Conan... no one will admit it.. but Conan just isn't funny.
Conan had 11 years on TBS.His act doesn't work for the major leagues and he couldn't draw the viewers. TBS get better ratings with 'Big Bang' reruns than they did Conan when he got cancelled. So why bother? It's a Business.
I’ll admit it. Conan is very funny. Much funnier then Jay Leno with his cliche punch down monologues. We get it. The President got a BJ. How many years did Jay Leno beat that dead horse?
Oh come on with this victim card. One of the biggest hosts didnt have a say in all this? "I said check with Conan"? What a cop out. So they just came to him with an offer and he couldnt refuse? Weak. Letterman said it best: "this is who he is."
Letterman cheated on his wife when they had a young son with a member of his staff who was decades younger. Even if Jay was cut throat on some things in his work life (and I think even that is debatable), Letterman is in no place to judge.
@@mattmorris2141 wtf does that have to do with the subject matter? Im not mad at jay for taking tge tonight show. Its one of the biggest jobs a comedian could ever have and he was obviously great at it. Its the cowerdice about it thats weak. Just say: "yea, im funnier and more deserving then dave." Not finger pointing to some nameless faceless execs, that shit is weak.
RE: *"Oh come on with this victim card. One of the biggest hosts didnt have a say in all this? "I said check with Conan"? What a cop out."* Bill Carter's excellent book "The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane" makes it clear Jay really didn't have a say in Conan's deal to acquire "The Tonight Show." *NBC* just informed him of their decision after the deal had been made, and his choice was to either leave graciously at the end of his contract, or leave making a fuss as Letterman had. He chose the former- never realizing the network would later change it's mind and beg him to stay. In the case of bumping Conan's start time: Former *NBC* president of programming Jeff Zucker doesn't dispute that Jay wanted to know how Conan felt about it, and Zucker assured Jay that Conan would be okay with it. And in spite of that assurance, Jay asked if he could be released from his contract, and Zucker told him no. So he couldn't just walk away like some people think. Therefore, I'm not seeing a copout on Jay's part.
@@gallery7596 not disputing your points, but: how does bill cartee know about private conversations between an exec and an employee? And secondly, jay can opt to retire at any point, hes worth 500m. No exec can FORCE him to work. If someone forces me out the door, why do them the favor and come back? Sounds dumb to me.
@@vindigga6 RE: "how does bill carter know about private conversations between an exec and an employee?" Because he interviewed all the people who were in on those conversations- including Conan O'Brien. Excellent book and highly recommended reading. RE: "And secondly, jay can opt to retire at any point, hes worth 500m. No exec can FORCE him to work." He was bound by his contract- just as Conan was (which is why he couldn't appear on television for a set number of months agreed upon by the network once he'd departed with his buy-out money). RE: "If someone forces me out the door, why do them the favor and come back?" One thing we know for sure about Jay Leno: he loved hosting "The Tonight Show." Also, his staff had become like family to him, and he wanted to keep them employed, too.
moving the tonight show to 12:05 would have killed the tonight show. conan was 100% right about that.. an unstoppable force vs an immovable object, put into opposition by network ninnies.
It's a pity Conan didn't just wait for his contract to expire in 2006 and pursue a show with an earlier time at *FOX* or *ABC.* They were eager to have him.
Or taken the offer from *ABC* or *FOX.* But instead Conan says yes to a deal that displaces Jay and his staff, and he has to wait 5 years for that to happen. It was the decision that set the entire Tonight Show debacle into motion.
@@andybaldman Conan was not very cooperative during his time as "Tonight Show" host. For example, he assured all the *NBC* execs that he'd tailor his material to the 11:35pm audience, then admitted he had no intention of changing a thing. He was also reluctant to take their suggestions. They wanted him to go into the audience more, which he did for a while...and then skipped it. The network thought he should have the biggest stars early in his run to attract the new 11:35 audience, but by week 2 he booked his favourite, Norm MacDonald. A funny guy to be sure, but Norm's was more of a niche appeal. When the ratings were dropping, *NBC* wanted him to book Sarah Palin to get a ratings boost. Conan refused. He was afraid Dave Letterman wouldn't like that. Conan's getting crushed in the ratings, the network that made his dream of hosting "TTS" come true is losing money, and he won't book a hot guest because he's afraid to offend his biggest competitor?? Every talk show host had a time slot guarantee written into their contract- except Conan. If he hadn't neglected to get this, the network would not have been able to insist he move to 12:05am. At the time he signed the deal with *NBC* to drop Jay at the end of his contract so he could take over "The Tonight Show," Conan was getting huge offers from *ABC* and *FOX* to do a show of his own at that earlier hour. The *FOX* offer came with a salary that was almost double what *NBC* was going to pay him to wait 5 years. If he'd gone to one of those competing networks when they were so anxious to have him, nobody would've had to lose their job over it, and "The Tonight Show debacle" could've been averted.
@@gallery7596 That isn't called not being cooperative. It's called having values. And good for him for sticking by them. Not everyone needs to sell out their values for money.
@@andybaldman RE: *"That isn't called not being cooperative."* -Being insincere with execs when they ask you about your show's direction, -Resisting a simple request to interact more with the audience, -Booking less famous comedians when your employers think you could lure more viewers with bigger names: none of those are examples of being uncooperative, eh? Well, you might've felt differently if you were one of the executives who'd removed their #1 rated guy so that Conan could realize his dream of hosting "The Tonight Show."
I still can't stand Conan. He has too much of an ego! And a GOD complex! And that "Yeah No!" thing has got to go!! Andy and Max Weinberg were great at times. Anyhow I miss the way it was I loved most of the late-night fun! I even wrote a song and recorded it in a recording studio and had it put on my COOL FAME c.d. I think it was called!= Stay up this night???? I still own a lot of old vcr tapes with Letterman and Paul and Leno and Kenny- G???? on them. Jay should of had Kenny-G! 🌎 ✌
Yeah Jay is so "hard working". He has never had a stand up comedy special because he wants to be able to tell the same old jokes when he tours instead of working out new material.
He is literally still making TV shows and performing well into his 70s. Hate him all you want, but to claim he doesn’t work hard just comes across as jealousy.
Howie, if you don’t have enough respect for me as a listener to be able to communicate without using foul language, I don’t care to listen to you. Stop being lazy.
Jay saying the ratings are all that counts... I'm sorry and excuse my language here but that is such horseshit. Ratings do not necessarily determine how good a show is. Ratings are based on network viewership, lead-ins, and many other factors completely independent of a particular show. My personal opinion and I think it's obvious to most is that if David Letterman had been at NBC and Leno at CBS, Letterman would have buried him into the ground. Johnny Carson's personal preference was that Letterman take his place. That alone should've been enough for Jay to be a man and say okay he should have it if that's what Johnny wants. Johnny hosted that show for 34 years and made it what it was. People grew up idolizing David Letterman and so many comedians afterward cite him as a massive influence. I hear little to no people cite Leno as any sort of comedic influence beyond Jerry Seinfeld and even he appreciates more his standup and his obsession with cars. Jay Leno was not personal with his audience the way Dave or Conan was, he was like a one-night stand as a comic, no one you'd fall in love with. He did not pioneer anything novel and meaningful on his Tonight Show he essentially just tried to copy the Johnny Carson format. He had "Headlines" and "Jay-walking" I don't know of any other reasonably memorable things Jay did. For Dave I can think of probably at least 25, maybe more for Conan. He should not be within 3 tiers of Letterman or Conan I don't give a fuck what ratings were at the time if they took a poll now amongst comedy fans Leno would be crushed. Conan O'Brien's reddit community has 150,000 members. Jay Leno's has 42. People do not care about memorializing his legacy to comedy because there is so little to memorialize. Nobody keeps archived collections of Leno's work, they do though for Letterman who was on the air 12 years before Leno did the tonight show. Ratings this, ratings that why don't we see what the "ratings" on Jackie Robinson were in 1947 when he first stepped onto Ebbett's field. He stabbed Conan in the back and he absolutely knows it. He may be very kind to his staff I don't question that but he lied straight through his teeth and into the cameras when he wished Conan all the success in the world. If he believed that he would not have even thought about staying at NBC, let alone doing a show a half hour before Conan's and pushing Conan's TONIGHT show into THE NEXT DAY. He was loyal to the NBC pinheads above being a decent person to his fellow comedy colleagues. Howard Stern hates him, Jimmy Kimmel hates him, Conan will not to this day even mention his name in a sentence after that disaster because of how badly he and NBC executives fucked him over. David Letterman wasn't as angry at Jay as he was toward NBC but he had no love for him at all. He never went on his show once. You know what show Dave did go on? A little program that followed Jay hosted by a 30 year old kid named Conan O'Brien, he went on there 4 different times. Johnny Carson also never went on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. He made his final ever television appearance handing David Letterman his top ten list at CBS. Jay Leno was not respected by comedy greats and for the most part still isn't respected with any true sincerity because again there's just too little to appreciate. He's a great stand-up comic he's very intelligent when it comes to comedy and he's a good man when it comes to his family and those who worked for him. But he was so intimidated and jealous of Conan O'Brien and David Letterman that he did what it took to stay on top. He says he sleeps well at night, I certainly wouldn't. At the end now, legacies are all that matter. He was "#1 in ratings" and that's all he has and it means so little. It would be like calling Pete Rose the greatest baseball player of all time because he had the most hits.
RE: "if David Letterman had been at NBC and Leno at CBS, Letterman would have buried him into the ground." But when Dave went to *CBS,* he was an immediate hit and clobbered Jay in the ratings for literally years. But *NBC* stuck with Jay, he had a lucky break with the Hugh Grant appearance, and after that he was able to take over the #1 spot for the majority of their years in competition. Viewers don't seem to tune in just for the channel, or the title of a show. It's the host they want to watch, and Jay convincingly proved that most viewers preferred him. RE: "Johnny Carson's personal preference was that Letterman take his place. That alone should've been enough for Jay to be a man and say okay he should have it if that's what Johnny wants." But outgoing hosts don't get to decide who replaces them. *NBC* owns that show. They sign the cheques. Besides, if Johnny (who was getting rather lazy in his later years) had stepped down a few years earlier, Dave almost certainly would've been the network's choice to replace him. But by hanging in there too long while relying on Jay to guest host and bring in younger viewers, Johnny allowed Jay to prove himself as a serious contender.
@@gallery7596 casual viewers of late night at that time preferred Jay because he was always a good standup. Once the monologue is through you’ll get some decent laughs and keep watching. But in terms of the talk show medium itself, Leno did nothing. Nobody archives his shows, little to no one shares clips online. He is a standup, he’s not anything else and it’s evident. His ego was too big and he inserted himself in a spot that was better for another entertainer and just about everybody knew it except for the NBC executives that he kissed up to. That first fiasco is why Peter Lassally left NBC and moved with Dave to CBS after Carson retired. He was the executive producer of The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson, Late Night with David Letterman, The Late Show with David Letterman, and The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson (whom he chose himself). NBC made the decisions but their brain trust is possibly the worst and most inept group of executives historically. They fired Chris Farley, Adam Sandler, and Norm MacDonald. Lorne didn’t do that, NBC went over his head to do that. They pushed David Letterman and Conan O’Brien out the door and treated other comedy legends without any dignity. It’s likely why Sandler has never hosted SNL. I guess they were nicer to Howie when he did his little deal or no deal.
@@Shshshshshhshhs Jay's actually said that being humble is a good way to proceed in your career. I don't think his ego was any bigger than Letterman, Carson, Cavett, Griffin, Chase, or O'Brien for that matter. Their profession is full of egomaniacs, but since Jay emerged as the top-rated host of his era, that would clearly suggest he was underestimated. Yes, and it took some convincing on Lassally's part to get Dave to leave. He was really torn about whether to turn down another network's offer in exchange for "The Tonight Show." And Lassally was right because if Dave had stayed, it would've been him getting put out to pasture for a younger host- and probably a lot sooner than they tried to do it to Jay. In fact not getting that show was the best thing that could've happened for the longevity of Dave's tv career- and yet he remained embittered about it for years. He just couldn't seem to recognize that he was better off at *CBS.* Pity Conan didn't also turn down *NBC's* "Tonight Show" offer and just went to *FOX.* RE: "They pushed David Letterman and Conan O’Brien out the door and treated other comedy legends without any dignity. It’s likely why Sandler has never hosted SNL." Sandler actually did host "SNL" a few years ago, and he sang a brilliant and touching song in tribute to (as he described him) "the great Chris Farley." However, yes, *NBC* has a history of mistreating it's on-air talent. A shame Conan didn't remember that when he made his own deal to get "The Tonight Show." Tragic error in judgement.
@@gallery7596 Jay Leno ended up with the most money but Conan, Dave, and Craig Ferguson are all revered by the majority of fans of having much better shows and being better people. Jay Leno is about as liked as Rob Schneider as a person in comedy. You can't deny you're in the minority.
@@Shshshshshhshhs I've heard Dave is actually worth more (Jay thinks so, too), and even though he was usually #2 in the ratings, *CBS* still paid him more than *NBC* did Jay. I think Dave, Ferguson and certainly O'Brien have a stronger online following. However, if the general public felt those guy had better shows and were just better people, then why were more of them watching Jay? RE: "Jay Leno is about as liked as Rob Schneider as a person in comedy." I wasn't aware Rob was all that disliked. Sandler puts him in all his movies. Anyways, sure, Jay's controversial. But then so is Letterman. There was always a percentage of viewers who couldn't stand his smug, sarcastic persona- which is one of the reasons *NBC* didn't think he was right for "The Tonight Show." And his having to come clean about that sex scandal in 2009 sure didn't help Conan when he was trying to attract viewers. There was also the joke about Sara Palin's daughter that landed him in hot water. He fired his longtime producer Robert Morton. He had feuds with Bryant Gumbel and Joan Collins, two interviews with Jane Seymour were disasters. He p@ssed off Les Moonves at *CBS* and Cher famously called him an a%% h@l#. If one looks closely enough, it's clear that none of these guys are saints.
Jay's prime-time show was not doing well. It was killing the affiliates because their local news ratings were suffering and the new Conan Tonight show never recover from that whole issue.
It's true that the 10pm show was a flop that almost certainly affected Conan's ratings, too. However, it came along after months of Conan's "Tonight Show" losing to Letterman. So, now *NBC's* two top guys were failing, and they felt the only way to stop the ratings free fall was to put them both back where they'd been successful. Pity Conan didn't at least try it. He could always have resigned later.
@Gall ery Jay was losing to letterman when the Late Show started but he was given time to settle in. Moving Leno to 1130 would have just been a step to get Conan out. They create a mini tonight show before the tonight show with even more issues with booking guests and ratings. It wouldn't have made sense. Leno knew it too
@@fakeascanbe423 RE: [Jay] was given time to settle in." That's true. But *NBC* was doing a lot better in those days. By 2009 their prime time schedule was largely without any hits, and the overall audience for network television by that time had greatly decreased. *NBC* may simply not have been able to afford to wait a period of years for Conan's ratings to improve. RE: "Moving Leno to 1130 would have just been a step to get Conan out." But *NBC* wanted Conan to stay. That was the whole point in 2004 of offering him "TTS" at Jay's expense. The network was terrified of losing Conan to another network. And despite the disappointing debut he'd made as host in 2009, *NBC* still wanted Conan to host "The Tonight Show." RE: "Leno knew it too" Jay wasn't immediately sold on the 30 minute show either and asked if he could get out of his contract. *NBC* said no. So, he couldn't just walk away without penalty.
@Gall ery 1. Leno was on that primetime schedule that tanked the affiliate news and Conan's lead ins. And the drop in network audiences affected every network, not just NBC. Yes, NBC could have given Conan time as long as Jay was willing to leave and not start a 4th late night show. 2. They offered Conan TTS because Jay said he'd retire. But he kept NOT retiring. It had become a joke that Leno was getting cold feet about leaving and sure enough he started implying he would look for other late night opportunities, presumably against TTS. NBC didn't "want Leno and Conan" they wanted a handoff and Leno didn't give it to them. 3. The 30 minute show would have killed the tonight show. We can agree there, right? The move only worked to help the local news because the Leno primetime show was doing so much damage. Conan was right in rejecting it. Saying that Leno didn't want to hurt Conan by moving to 1130 is ridiculous because it's what he kept threatening to do if NBC let him go! 🙄 Leno pulled all the strings and plays the accommodating employee. Like Howie said, Jay is no dummy.
@@fakeascanbe423 RE: "Leno was on that primetime schedule that tanked the affiliate news and Conan's lead ins." Yes, the 10pm show bombed, and even Jay said that it was no help to Conan's ratings. However, "The Tonight Show" was #1 when Jay turned it over to Conan, and within a week "Late Show With David Letterman" was for the first time in years #1 again in late night. This trend continued for months before Jay's prime time show premiered. So Conan has to take some responsibility for why he wasn't doing well. RE: "And the drop in network audiences affected every network, not just NBC." But *NBC* was no longer the #1 network as they had been in the early 90's when Jay took over. Back then they had hits like "Cosby" and "Cheers" with more on the way like "ER" and "Friends." Those were all gone by 2009, while *CBS* was riding high with it's CSI and NCIS franchises. Add to that the fact that they were going through the worst recession the country had seen in decades and one can see how important it was for *NBC* to get those ratings back up fast. RE: "Yes, NBC could have given Conan time as long as Jay was willing to leave..." But Conan's contract was closer to completion in 2004 than Jay's was, and Conan was getting huge offers to do a show with an earlier start time at *ABC* and *FOX.* Why didn't he just leave (like Letterman did) and start his own late night dynasty elsewhere? RE: "They offered Conan TTS because Jay said he'd retire." According to "The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane" by Bill Carter, the deal for Conan to take over "The Tonight Show" was made before Jay knew a thing about it. *NBC* asked Conan if he would be willing to wait until Jay's contract expired, and rather than consulting Jay (who had been a big supporter when O'Brien was off to a rocky start at "Late Night"), Conan said yes and let the network tell Jay of their decision. They asked Jay not to make a Letterman-style stink about it (which would've done nothing except embarrass Conan), so he graciously wished Conan well- never imagining that 5 years later *NBC* would start begging him not to leave. RE: "But he kept NOT retiring. It had become a joke that Leno was getting cold feet about leaving and sure enough he started implying he would look for other late night opportunities," Like Conan did in 2004. RE: "NBC didn't "want Leno and Conan" they wanted a handoff..." Not by 2009 they didn't. Conan and Jay were both hot in 2004, but by 2009 Jay was still #1 at 11:35 while Conan at 12:35 was losing ground to Craig Ferguson. That's when *NBC* decided they might've made a mistake and offered Jay the 10pm show. That turned out to be a mistake, too, but they didn't want him going to *ABC* because the competition of both Dave and Jay at 11:35 would probably have crushed Conan like a bug. So either way, Conan's chances seemed slim. He made a big mistake not leaving earlier in the decade. RE: "3. The 30 minute show would have killed the tonight show." How do we know that? RE: "The move only worked to help the local news because the Leno primetime show was doing so much damage." It sounds like you're suggesting Jay was not responsible for the bad ratings of Conan's "Tonight Show" after all. That would mean that Conan was solely the reason he was getting beaten so badly by Letterman. RE: "Saying that Leno didn't want to hurt Conan by moving to 1130 is ridiculous ..." But as stated in my earlier post, when *NBC* proposed the 30 minute show to Jay, he asked if he could get out of his contract. *NBC* said no. He could not just walk away from this, and even the biggest Conan fan can't possibly expect Jay Leno to place himself in a position where *NBC* could take him to court, in order to suit the guy whose decision cost him "The Tonight Show" in the first place.
you don't have to know anything about anything to know what jay did is messed up. jay explained inadvertently explained it in this video. jay says when he started the tonight show he was behind letterman's cbs show for *18 months*. jay got 18 months to find his audience. conan had the tonight show for exactly three months before he was following leno again on NBC, effectively becoming jay's follow up act again. leno's huge following would still watch leno and turn off at conan just like it did for all the years when conan was on at 12:35. conan never got the 18 months to find his footing, and it's 100% jay's fault.
Seems like a lot of people still does not understand that jay was ASKED to do the lead in show, and still he gets hate like he stole something from Conan. 😅
Because Conan dishonestly changed the narrative to his fan base to make himself out to be an innocent victim. Conan was the one claiming he had the job stolen from him and his sheep audience ate it up. Conan is not the innocent angel his fan base makes him out to be.
He didn't demand anything, but he gave up the Tonight Show, bombed at 10pm, they basically offered him the Tonight Show again...AND HE TOOK IT. He retired, they hired his replacement, then he walked back in, said "thanks, kid", then took his job back. That's what people were mad at. Also, The Tonight Show at 12am is the tomorrow show. Let's call it what it is.
Leno didn't retire. NBC replaced him with Conan. Did you watch what he said? It's common knowledge: Conan leveraged his appeal so NBC would promise to give him The Tonight Show in five years. Leno was a grownup about it, and didn't complain. He just did his five years as #1 and then left. He didn't "retire" and then "unretire" to take back something he gave up. He never "gave it up," he was gently pushed out. When NBC had buyer's remorse about Conan, they asked Leno back. Why crucify a man for saying yes to a job offer?
Did Howie watched the 10pm Leno show and its poor ratings? Even the news dropped close to 50% in viewership after the Leno show and that killed leadin for the tonight show as well.
Did you watch the entire podcast? Jay said he knew it would be a failure from the start. And no it did not kill the lead in for Conan. Conan's "comedy" was not going to fly with the people who actually tuned into the Tonight Show. He killed his own ratings.
OMG stern are you high?!? Hissy fit?! Who Conan?!?! It doesn't matter if you were number 1 Your contract was over 10,5 5 years contract. You already stole from Letterman than you stole from Conan
John Melendez was the funniest thing on and from The Howard Stern Show!! I can definitely see why Jay wanted him to be apart of the show! Howard was only funny and good when he had guests like Gilbert Gottfried on! It runs like that still. 😃 I would like to see more of John Melendez,please try to help him get back into the publics eye Guy's! #johnmelendez
Watch the Full Podcast Here: th-cam.com/video/buTly-dGGk4/w-d-xo.html
Howie trying to get the 2006 drama going
its all crazy to me man BUT I am pro-vajazzle as many people know. even more crazy? 31 trillion in debt, sigh, remember the debt clock?
Conan didn't have much of a chance to build his audience, so it's not really fair to just say he wasnt doing well. Nor is it fair to say he had a hissy fit. It worked out: Conan is a comedic genius who landed on his feet
@@justinsandberg9546 It's true that Conan was expected to hit the ground running as it were, but we have to remember that by 2009 *NBC* wasn't the powerhouse that it had been in the early 90's when Jay took over. They may simply not have been able to afford to be as patient with his slow progress. And in the end, it was Conan who chose to resign.
Jay even admits that when he took over The Tonight Show, it took 18 months to turn his losing streak around. They never gave Conan the same chance.
A lot changed in the entire generation between those start dates though. A lot less competition for your viewers to go elsewhere back in 1992. You really can't compare. Just like how the Film business changed, the music biz, etc.
i love conan, he acted like a btch
Conan went to TBS and even then his views was no where near what Leno was pulling in and on top of that TBS did cancel him because of low views.. don't get me wrong Conan is a great writer (some of the best ep of the Simpsons was written by him) but he sort of a hit and miss when it comes to hosting a talk show..
Conan is kinda like Norm Macdonald though he doesnt have lots of fans, but the ones that he has love him so much and very vocal about it online
Conan had 11 years on TBS and he still only drew a niche audience. And when he finally got cancelled, his ratings were downright embarrassing, like 200K viewers versus the millions a late night host ought to draw. Talk about going out with a whimper.
The issue for Conan would be doing a 12:05 AM show still called The Tonight Show isn't doing The Tonight Show. It's the next morning show. A show at 12:05 AM isn't drawing what a show at 11:35 PM is drawing. I imagine a lot of people just watch the opening monologue, the following banter, maybe hear a bit of what first guest is saying, and drift off to sleep because they need to wake up and go to work the next day. With Jay coming in and doing something for 30 minutes, for Conan it's (rightly) "what is even the point of me being here?"
You nailed it Anthony!
Conan would have been better off at 12:05 AM on NBC than he was at 11:00 PM on TBS.
@@bradleymaravalli2851 Better how? Maybe money wise. But not self respect wise.
@@isaacg2721 Well... TBS did cut his show's budget year after year. Eliminating the band and certain bits. Eventually reduced to a half-hour format. And then canning him in the end.
All so he could tie or do worse than NBC's 1:30 AM show: Last Call with Carson Daly.
Also, he bumped George Lopez to the 12 midnight hour AND got the Lopez Tonight show canceled the following year.
@@bradleymaravalli2851 The long term result may not have been what he or the network wanted, but that took years to unfold. I applaud him having enough self respect to not snivel and grovel and cater to whatever the NBC suits deemed worthy at the time.
Well, Howie sanitized that situation.
I love how on the one hand Jay is the ever-active mastermind responsible for keeping the Tonight Show #1 but in the Conan story he's this passive "okay, I guess I'll just do what you guys say" guy. It ain't both.
"The War For Late Night" by Bill Carter makes it clear that replacing Jay with Conan, and then reversing themselves to keep Jay and bump Conan was all the work of *NBC* head of programming Jeff Zucker. And Jay didn't know a thing about Conan's deal to get "The Tonight Show" until it had been signed by Conan and the network.
@@gallery7596 I don't dispute that, I just dispute this "Well, Ok guys if that's what you want" take from Jay. He can't be the micromanaging mastermind of a show one moment and the cool dude just being ok with everything the next.
@@ronbent I'm sure Jay wanted the show back. He was crushed when they informed him of their decision that Conan was taking over.
@@ronbent Is it unfathomable that someone can be very good at his job and not being a manipulative bxxxx outside of it? We don't know the truth, and I totally get your distrust of this one counter attack after all those years. But I've got good reason to believe the facture part of the interview is actually what happened. Tons of people I followed, J.Rogan, Loius CK, they have nice thing to say about Jay and said he caught a lot of unnecessary fire. And what's more, the guy stayed quiet through all of it. I've never seen a guity one stayed quiet like this.
It always makes me laugh that Leno's fans think he would be able to stay alive in the cutthroat world of television by being this nice, pure, wonderful person. They are BLIND.
It was NBC's fault. Not Leno. NBC were the real cause of "The Tonight Show" debacle. Here's what really happened:
In 2004, Conan was getting offers from other networks to do a show at an earlier hour. NBC (at that time) feared losing him, so they offered to drop Jay at the end of his contract if Conan would stay and take over "The Tonight Show", but in 2009. Conan agreed. Jay couldn't change it, so he didn't complain. But by 2009, Jay's ratings were still strong, and ABC wanted to hire him. NBC panicked and offered Jay a prime time show at 10:00pm. So Conan takes over "The Tonight Show" and almost immediately he starts losing to Letterman. Then, Jay's new prime time show premieres 3 months later and soon he is tanking in the ratings as well. NBC decides to put Jay back at 11:35pm, but just for half an hour, and Conan's "Tonight Show" would begin at midnight. Jay asked if he could be let out of his contract, but NBC said no. Conan didn't get along with NBC and HATED the idea of "TTS" starting at midnight. So, he took a buy out and left. Jay returned to "TTS" and after a rocky start, the show went back to #1. While many of Conan's fans continued to blame Jay for what happened, it was really NBC that sent everything into a tailspin in late night.
I was a fan of Conan but read how he pushed Leno out years before the big debacle and thought less of Conan.
Not what happened. Conan could not get offers from anyone since he was still under contract to NBC. NBC went to Conan's agent to talk new contract. Conan's agent told NBC "we will not re-sign unless you give Conan The Tonight Show". NBC never offered to drop Jay. NBC was put into a corner with the demand and they panicked. NBC agreed to Conan's demand BEFORE they even talked to Jay about it.
@John Dinh Nguyen Conan 's dream job was The Tonight Show. It wasn't about the time slot.
"so they offered to drop Jay at the end of his contract if Conan would stay and take over "The Tonight Show", but in 2009. Conan agreed. J"
No, no, no. Don't do that. Conan blackmailed NBC into giving him Leno's job. They didn't just offer him Leno's job on their own initiative. Come on.
@@SelfReflective No, no ..Conan kidnapped the executives' children, kept them hostage until he was offered the job.
More conspiracy theories??
I was hoping they would also take about the "exclusive dealing" demands made by Leno's executive producer in the 90s, which helped drive Dennis Miller's show to cancellation:
"He brought longtime manager Helen Kushnick to serve as executive producer and booking agent. Kushnick was extremely loyal to Leno and fiercely competitive with anyone who challenged his success. Even before Leno’s hosting debut on May 22, 1992, she had made it clear to prospective guests everywhere: Do another late-night show and you’ll never be invited on The Tonight Show." (Source: Ultimate Classic Rock)
You mean someone at a private, for profit company like NBC made the business decision that was in the best interest for their company at the time? Shocker. The question is, why WOULDN'T she do that if the Tonight Show had that much clout at the time. She would be doing a disservice to her own show. It's a business not a government sponsored charity. If you didn't like her rules as an actor/agent fine, go play elsewhere and you didn't have to have her in your life. Done. I bet you have rules for who you let in your home too eh Ben? Or do you just let acquaintances do whatever they want in your home?
She is dead and she is irrelevant since he ended up firing her and then refusing to have anything to do with her.
@@RipperFromYT First, there is a HUGE difference between having rules for when someone is in my home, and demanding that they ONLY visit my home. To say "I am your only friend" and then expect people to respect that demand is a bit neurotic.
Putting that aside, private pro-profit companies are still subject to antitrust laws, and exclusive dealing can be illegal under U.S. antitrust laws. It looks like Leno's practices probably did not meet the conditions to break those laws because they still faced substantial competition from Letterman, and they did not seem to hurt Arsenio Hall much. Nonetheless, the intent of exclusive dealing in this case is clearly to substantially reduce competition in the market for late-night talk shows, and therefore hurt consumers of this type of content for the profit of a business that was already highly successful.
I don't usually care so much about morals because everyone has different morals, so I will not get into that otherwise relevant issue. I only look at it from an economic and legal perspective, and at least economically, the behaviour of Leno's people was anti-competitive and anti-consumer.
P.S. I made no value judgement for these practices in my original comment. I just pointed out that I would have liked to hear them talk about it, since it related to the subject. I therefore do not understand why you took it so personally.
Leno was smart enough to know Kushnick was overstepping her bounds and that his nice-guy image would be shot to hell eventually if he didn't give her the boot. She did what she had to do in the business and he did the same. No harm, no foul. But blackballing guests from doing other shows is a sign of insecurity and would have only served to hinder Jay in the long run, so she might have thought she was doing right but she f*cked up. I found it sweet that during the Carson tenure, Ed McMahon and Carson would both suggest guests for Arsenio Hall because they knew those guests were perfect for his show and not for the Tonight Show audience. That's how you do it.
Miller was, indeed, steamed with Jay for a while and vented freely about it, too. Then one night Miller said he watched himself on some show railing against Jay and thought "what am I teaching my kid?" So, he called Jay, they talked it out and the feud ended. Jay even had Miller on as a frequent "Tonight Show" guest, and when Jay was getting pummeled in the media over the Conan debacle, Miller actually spoke up for Jay and talked about what a good man he is. I wish Conan would call Jay and see if they, too could talk it over and find a way to put it behind them.
Lol any conversation starts with: I sleep well at night 😭😂😂😂😂
His daughter is like WELL DAMN CAN HE JAY TALK!
Jay Leno: "I sleep well at night" ... "3 hours at a time"
I always connected with Jay and his style. He is the kind of a guy that would give your car a jump in the parking lot.
With a camera crew in tow to make sure everyone knew he did it.
Jay gets a few details incorrect (SJ was making $85k per year at Stern when he left, not $35k--and he was still employed at K-Rock when NBC offered him the gig), but that aside, I'm happy you got the chance to pull some of this out of him. Jay taking the high road when he has the nukes to truly bury Stern is admirable but misguided; the one time Jay appeared live on Stern, Howard was completely flustered and all over the place because he can't take direct confrontation. Jay by that point had played every dive bar and club in the country and was fearless on the mic. Complete mismatch.
Conan took the Tonight Show. Leno was supposed to go away. Not then be a lead-in.
It just became bizarre.
+volvoplz In 2008, Jay (still #1) was certainly being courted by ABC to be Jimmy Kimmel's lead-in. That's what panicked NBC into offering Leno a prime time show at 10:00pm. But after the prime time show tanked I don't recall Bill Carter mentioning in his book that Jay was getting such offers.
In 2009 (after the cancellation of the prime time show), Jay was offered a new 30 minute show that would move Conan's "Tonight Show" to midnight. Jay was not immediately sold on that plan, which prompted him and his producer to ask if it would be possible for them to be released from their contracts. NBC told them that wasn't going to happen. That's what went down there.
I watched this out of curiosity, because I stopped being a Leno fan after the second Late Night debacle. His justifications don't hold water. He was always blatantly careerist, so he shouldn't be so bemused that his attitude breeds resentment. To me Dave and Conan are far more likable, and Conan in particular is far funnier. And as for "work ethic," no one can say with a straight face that they don't have one. Each of them ran popular shows for multiple decades, and continue to work today (Dave on Netflix, Conan with his fantastic podcast and soon, HBOMax).
Letterman was a pretty sexist and had history of sexual history, and his attitude has always been I deserve more! Self-deprecation will hide all my problems!
As much as I love conan, and enjoyed lettermans early non-cranky old man years - both of their shows never worked at 11:35. I watched Conan's Tonight Show - it never worked, just look at the norm interviews on Late Night vs Tonight Show - it wasn't until the end of the show when he knew he was cancelled and done that he went off the rails..
It also goes to show how much censorship doesn't work.
Jay kicked their ass in the ratings. Nuff said
@@cassandragarcia5548 And to the suits, that is all that matters.
@@cassandragarcia5548 Catering to the lowest common denominator ain't high praise.
Literally everyone at Letterman was afraid and intimidated of Dave. What a great creative environment! When you realize that Dave spent most of his time trying to nail every woman in the building, while Jay was actually working on his show and building his career, you understand why Jay was the King of late night. The idea that Dave is more ‘likeable’ than Jay is insane.
Need to correct Jay Leno , stuttering John was still working for Howard Stern . Stuttering John used radio station equipment to do is audition. If Howard offered Stuttering John more money, he might still be there.
I love that Howard is still working and John’s Tonight Show job vanished like a decade ago.
He wasn’t talented at all. Why should he offer him more money. Jay Leno stole so much from Howard Stern that he hired Stuttering John to pick his brain and use him
In the end the network is the ones responsible, all of this could have been ironed out behind the scenes not in the public.
Yeah if they gave Letterman the Tonight Show like JOHNNY CARSON wanted
The Tonight show “ Tomorrow “ lol
"We want what's above #1."-Every Executive in History
Jay Leno listens to Howie Mandel on "Late Night Show" Rivalries. lol
I love Jay defending himself. I totally get what he's saying why he didn't back in the day but sad that doing that let the other side drive the story/narrative for all these years pretty much. Letterman was one of the vocal ones on the other side yet as much as I love David as well as Jay, David seems by far to have been the bigger prick to people. Hey Jay, can I come see your Miura's in person? :D
Letterman was doing VERY inappropriate things with his female staff members while trying to talk about morals and Leno... Letterman did admit on Oprah about him doing that stuff and getting blackmailed out of a fortune.. a few yrs ago Leno did an interview and he revealed that it didn't matter who it was (intern, staff, guess etc) anytime he would have a meeting with someone he would ALWAYS leave his office door open...
@@dunhillsupramk3 Actually, Letterman talked about him having an affair with Stephanie Burkette on his show ( though he didn't mention her by name) and the attempted blackmail. He never gave in to the blackmailer. Maybe he talked about it on Oprah, but he revealed the scandal on his own show first.
@@dekelanson5280 Yes, but Dave was a victim of blackmail, so the FBI had become involved. Therefore, it was going to be made public anyway. Dave wanted to make sure he got his side of it out there before the media got ahold of the story.
Why bring on a guest if you’re gonna constantly interrupt? Let the man speak before jumping in.
Johnny did exactly that.
AMEN. This is why I am on the fence about Howie's podcast. He doesn't understand that it's his job to get the guest to open up.
Man, Paul Shaffer is looking good these days.
Jay looks baked...
How Howard/Leno feud is the most overblown situation ever
Like Jay said, it’s all about the money
Very wise, about that saying, One day story, if you react it then it's a three or four day story.
Leno is a class act
He’s a phony. All phonies come off as stoic
I appreciate Howie for shedding light on what really happened. Jay is a class act.
I always loved Jay Leno. Even though hated by many, he treated his guests with respect unlike Letterman. More than any other late-night hosts Leno supported a genuine comic when they came on the show.
He also behaved to fans with consideration.
Jay even said at the beginning of this podcast that for the first 18 months of HIS own Tonight Show (after Carson retired) he was behind in the ratings, behind Letterman. Fast forward to when Conan takes over, he also has a similar ratings slump during that transition, but they canceled him in seven months.
Jay should have given Conan's show his blessing, and stayed away or gone to a competing network if he felt wronged by NBC.
Imagine had Carson come back 7 months after "retiring" because Leno was behind Letterman (which he actually was)
Team Coco.
Leno didn't want to retire. Conan demanded the Tonight Show or he wouldn't sign a new contract. Conan is the asshole. Leno owed him nothing.
That’s what people get wrong. It was never Jays show. He was the host, that’s it
Yes, the person sitting in that chair does not anoint themselves the host. Always makes me chuckle when somebody says something like "Jay shouldn't have gotten the show because Johnny wanted Dave." It was immaterial who Johnny wanted. He didn't own "The Tonight Show." NBC chooses who hosts it.
Remember when Conan went to TBS and bumped George Lopez? That always rubbed me wrong about Conan. He did the exact thing he was pissed off at Leno for.
*TBS* encouraged Lopez to publicly endorse Conan taking over his time slot- just as *NBC* wanted Jay to congratulate Conan years earlier when it was announced that he was getting "The Tonight Show." Conan really is pretty naive if he thought both guys actually wanted to be moved aside for him.
Jay has the sweetest Dodge Challenger, not sure if he has several editions, but I remember those episodes like they were yesterday. Really enjoyed watching him drive around in that car. What a ride....
Dislike button.
This just made me dislike everyone in the room more
I really wanted the tonight show to go to Rob Schneider.
Why?
Jay was always the king of late night of that era. Conan, bless his heart, was too goofy to take over the Tonight Show at the time. So Jay came back.
Even as a CCO fan, have to acknowkedge that he was just too 'nichey' to sustain a network 1130 show.
What are you talking about? This "I love Jay Leno" shit didn't start until a few years after his second time as The Tonight Show host came to end. Through the nineties and 2000s everyone made fun of what a weak, boring show it was. And it was lame and crappy. Now that doesn't mean it wasn't popular, which was Jay's goal. But it was popular in the way McDonalds is popular but no one would call McDonalds the ""king of hamburgers".
Bad take. Conan's worst show was better than anything Leno ever did
I never realized how polarized the Conan vs Leno situation was.
Yes, depressingly so. Some times Team CoCo has seemed more like a hate group aimed at Jay than a fan club devoted to following Conan.
You’re the only one
I admire Jays work ethic. I still think he was in the wrong over the 2010 Tonight show drama, he should have walked once NBC fired him back in 2004
He talks about that in the full episode
+Aron Crillco In 2008, Jay (still #1) was certainly being courted by ABC to be Jimmy Kimmel's lead-in. That's what panicked NBC into offering Leno a prime time show at 10:00pm. But after the prime time show tanked I don't recall Bill Carter mentioning in his book that Jay was getting such offers.
In 2009 (after the cancellation of the prime time show), Jay was offered a new 30 minute show that would move Conan's "Tonight Show" to midnight. Jay was not immediately sold on that plan, which prompted him and his producer to ask if it would be possible for them to be released from their contracts. NBC told them that wasn't going to happen. That's what went down there.
He tried. NBC refused to let him out of his contract, blatantly breaching it. NBC gave him the prime time slot to prevent him from suing them for breach of contract.
You need to listen to the whole story. Then you'll realize how horrible of a comment you made.
In 2004 Jay was still under contract to *NBC* for at least 2 more years, so at that point he couldn't just walk.
I was a Leno fan than O’Brien fan because The Tonight Show I grew up with was in Los Angeles not New York. Now we have Jimmy Kimmel.
meanwhile the tonight show has jimmy fallon, who i find unwatchable, when we could have been seeing conan there in his golden years
i get all this, but i mean come on -- know when to hang em up, particularly when that's what you committed to do.
I didnt get Rolling Stones tickets by one call back in the day when people called for tickets. I want to say around 1990. They answered and said you were one off tje correct call we want to give you Howie tickets at the star casino. I hung up.
Imagine if Conan tried to push Letterman out like he did with Leno. For whatever reason people were comfortable with shitting on Jay, but this poor Conan BS needs to be put to bed, and I'm a big Conan fan.
Because Conan successfully whipped up his fan base with a BS story. Conan spuon it completely to make himself look like an innocent victim when he got Jay fired in the first place.
Yes, if Dave had been informed he was going to be dropped at the end of his contract to make room for Conan, it's hard to imagine him being a good sport and publicly wishing Conan well like Jay did. And that might've been Dave's fate if he'd accepted *NBC's* last minute offer to stay and host "The Tonight Show."
To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe Jay didn't mean to intentionally hurt Conan's ratings, but Jay being in primetime at 10 PM did inadvertently drain viewers from Conan. So Conan was understandably upset about that. But ultimately, Jay's right that most people don't really care *that* much about millionaire conflicts, and that it's probably time to let it go. I do think both Conan and Jay have moved on. Who knows, maybe they've reconciled behind the scenes 🤷♂️
RE: ''I do think both Conan and Jay have moved on. Who knows, maybe they've reconciled behind the scenes.''
That would be nice to see.
No, Jay is full of shit when he says that. Of course people care, and Jay knows this. That's why there are two number one books about it, hundreds of articles, a made for TV movie, and not to mention people are still talking about it.
That is Jay's underhanded crafty nature. He is well aware of the popularity of the feud, but he acts like he is passive. I like Jay but he's full of shit.
The girl brings a lot to the show.
Its weird seeing a public celebrity like Howie Mandel with 26k subs
John Bailey How many subs do you think a D lister should have?
Jay's a winner, enough said.
I thought local news ratings dropped because Leno didn’t have good ratings. People wanted drama or crime shows. Maybe I remember it wrong. Would have been better for Leno to not do late night and change it up. His car show is great.
Sounds like Howard should have paid that guy a decent salary.
John literally put zero effort into his show (that he pre-taped in 5 minutes) and barely worked at the Stern Show. For what he did, he was paid beyond well. He had all the opportunities in the world, and squandered all of them.
There's nothing here we didn't know. There's no misunderstandings. If somebody is pissing on someone but it just happens to benefit you, the thing is you don't go along with it, and then put your hands up in the air and claim it wasn't you. You are enabling poor behavior. Claiming otherwise has zero integrity
I liked LATE NIGHT with CONAN a lot but his TONIGHT SHOW didn’t work
Conan would have been better off at 12:05 AM on NBC than he was at 11:35 PM on TBS. Conan's work on TBS got cut to 30 minutes and eventually canceled.
The point was jay took away Conan’s thunder by coming in before him. Conan would have bounced back after a couple months if he had been given the chance. But he wasn’t given the chance to recover because Jay swept in and changed the whole dynamic.
Didn't Conan do the same thing to George Lopez show on TBS?
+Jess Marie NBC made the decision to replace Jay with Conan.
Then they reversed themselves and begged Jay to stay.
They cancelled his show after 3 months.
They decided bumping Conan to midnight with a 30 minute Leno show was a good idea.
They wouldn't let Jay out of his contract.
They wouldn't even let Conan do his string dance at 11:35pm.
Blame NBC.
If you read Bill Carter's book, 'The War for Late Night', it explain all the details about "The Tonight Show" debacle.
Wrong. Jay did nto premiere for months after Conan started. It is beyond naive to think he would have rebounded because his "comedy" would not fly with an audience that was fully grown on Jay & Johnny. Conan ruined himself. Karma for getting Jay fired in the first place.
Conan draws viewers by the hundreds of thousands. Networks want/need Millions of viewers in that 11:30 pm slot. Conan has niche audience that really likes him but he's not mainstream.
RE: "The point was jay took away Conan’s thunder by coming in before him."
But Conan was failing on his own before Jay's prime time show had even premiered.
RE: "Conan would have bounced back after a couple months if he had been given the chance."
Maybe, but we can't know for sure what would've happened. Even the ratings for his *TBS* show dropped noticeably after it premiered. When does Conan have to take some responsibility?
RE: "But he wasn’t given the chance to recover because Jay swept in and changed the whole dynamic."
Jay was there because *NBC* made him an offer. They're ultimately responsible for their line-up.
One day story!
I always blamed the network for that debacle, and I thought most people did. Jay was better than Letterman and Conan in that time slot because he gave it to you straight. He didn’t put any odd spin on his jokes. Remember, that time slot followed the late local news. Plus I always got the impression Dave was a bit of a perv
Some executive promised Conan early on that he would get the tonight show, and when Leno never faltered in ratings, Conan threw a tantrum in the press. Bring back Leno, get rid of Fallon
the thing about Leno he was politically neutral (he made fun of both left and right when they did stupid stuff), but Fallon went HARD left and its almost like watching a propaganda film.. that is when i stopped watching Fallon..
Jay, I was the "general public" and I was following the situation and I cared that Conan got screwed.
Wow Howie did not make the most of this opportunity. Weird questions
Jay is leaving out that his 10pm numbers were horrible as well, as was the local news. The the Conan’s numbers didn’t start to go down until Jay started his show.
2:50 that was a lie
I like his cars I have ton of hit wheels I'll redo that video later his awesome guest
Howie needs to try decaf. My gawd, he interrupts his guests so often, and in this interview he speaks probably 60 percent of the time, actually TELLING US WHAT JAY DID. When he has Jay Leno sitting on his couch in front of a microphone. His daughter finally calls him out.
I want to like Howie's podcast, because he gets some interesting guests. But I am failing to see any depth or self awareness from Howie. He is clueless.
I always believed Jay; and I love his attitude about the situation. I can’t stand Letterman’s stupid comments over the years; that guy is a total mess and one unhappy dude. And Conan with his Harvard education doesn’t get it.
Jeezus, what happened to Jay's head, he's morphing in to Jabba the Hutt.
I never understood if all these comedians are only puppets
7:33 Boss Shit
Dislike anyone? Why jay did you do a lead in show to Conan?
He talks about that in the full episode.
He talked about it in this full episdoe of this. He wanted to keep his staff working.
Blame the network. They decided it made sense to pull Jay from "The Tonight Show" when he was still #1 while Conan was occasionally being beaten by Ferguson at 12:35am. Then they put him into prime time so he wouldn't go to *ABC.*
American late-night could sure use a new Leno or Carson these days - a funny guy who converses with celebrities. The political punditry and negativity has become unwatchable.
I think they should have given Craig Ferguson the tonight show after Leno left.
My understanding is he didn't want it anyway.
A large part of these late night shows (especially late era) is that the guests are extremely scripted. It's not entertainment, it's an ad for other movies/products dressed up as entertainment.
Ferguson never followed those scripts. You'd never see "mouth organ or awkward silence" play out on the Tonight Show regularly without the host getting terfed.
That would have been interesting! NBC would have probably lost their shit after Craig´s first swearing on air :-D
Craig didn't work for CBS he works for Letterman technically watch his interview on the Netflix channel
He didn't want it and he was already done with the genre after what CBS did to him.
@@IkbalHussainBBD People really don't understand how amazing Letterman's contract was. Dude owned 2 hours of a network channel 5 times a week! That will never happen again
Leno was originally given the 18 months to get his ratings to number one. Conan was not given that opportunity. End of story.
Indeed, but television was a lot different when Jay took over (far less competition and a lot of people didn't even have computers in the home yet). *NBC* had a lot more prime time hits boosting their profits, too. Conan had the misfortune of taking over during what was then the biggest economic recession since the Great Depression. The network may simply not have been able to afford to give Conan as much time to prove himself.
Jay should wear his haters like a badge of honor. Letterman became a seriously unhappy/cranky man on the air, not to mention all the left wing crap he started to spew. And Conan would have never worked on The Tonight Show, he looked strange, acted stranger and was never close to the middle of the road sensibility needed for that show.
LOL you knew there would be someone crying about “liberals”. Doesn’t even matter what the subject matter is. Very sad stuff.
@@DABA2024 yup...that is one of the reasons kimmels show does not get ratings....liberal crap
Stuttering John WAS on stern and Leno hired him away.
How come John left?
i know that young lady from so where, but i cant figure it out, can someone help me
If NBC was smart it would have put Jay at midnight, and never would have made Conan show be massively moved during sporting events, and never would have switched them over during the Winter Olympics. Conan was setup to fail by NBC, and Jay Leno willingness to comeback to the show was no help.
But I don't blame NBC for Firing Conan... no one will admit it.. but Conan just isn't funny.
Conan had 11 years on TBS.His act doesn't work for the major leagues and he couldn't draw the viewers. TBS get better ratings with 'Big Bang' reruns than they did Conan when he got cancelled. So why bother? It's a Business.
I’ll admit it. Conan is very funny. Much funnier then Jay Leno with his cliche punch down monologues. We get it. The President got a BJ. How many years did Jay Leno beat that dead horse?
Jay is a cool guy
Oh come on with this victim card. One of the biggest hosts didnt have a say in all this? "I said check with Conan"? What a cop out. So they just came to him with an offer and he couldnt refuse? Weak. Letterman said it best: "this is who he is."
Letterman cheated on his wife when they had a young son with a member of his staff who was decades younger. Even if Jay was cut throat on some things in his work life (and I think even that is debatable), Letterman is in no place to judge.
@@mattmorris2141 wtf does that have to do with the subject matter? Im not mad at jay for taking tge tonight show. Its one of the biggest jobs a comedian could ever have and he was obviously great at it. Its the cowerdice about it thats weak. Just say: "yea, im funnier and more deserving then dave." Not finger pointing to some nameless faceless execs, that shit is weak.
RE: *"Oh come on with this victim card. One of the biggest hosts didnt have a say in all this? "I said check with Conan"? What a cop out."*
Bill Carter's excellent book "The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane" makes it clear Jay really didn't have a say in Conan's deal to acquire "The Tonight Show." *NBC* just informed him of their decision after the deal had been made, and his choice was to either leave graciously at the end of his contract, or leave making a fuss as Letterman had. He chose the former- never realizing the network would later change it's mind and beg him to stay.
In the case of bumping Conan's start time: Former *NBC* president of programming Jeff Zucker doesn't dispute that Jay wanted to know how Conan felt about it, and Zucker assured Jay that Conan would be okay with it. And in spite of that assurance, Jay asked if he could be released from his contract, and Zucker told him no. So he couldn't just walk away like some people think. Therefore, I'm not seeing a copout on Jay's part.
@@gallery7596 not disputing your points, but: how does bill cartee know about private conversations between an exec and an employee? And secondly, jay can opt to retire at any point, hes worth 500m. No exec can FORCE him to work. If someone forces me out the door, why do them the favor and come back? Sounds dumb to me.
@@vindigga6 RE: "how does bill carter know about private conversations between an exec and an employee?"
Because he interviewed all the people who were in on those conversations- including Conan O'Brien. Excellent book and highly recommended reading.
RE: "And secondly, jay can opt to retire at any point, hes worth 500m. No exec can FORCE him to work."
He was bound by his contract- just as Conan was (which is why he couldn't appear on television for a set number of months agreed upon by the network once he'd departed with his buy-out money).
RE: "If someone forces me out the door, why do them the favor and come back?"
One thing we know for sure about Jay Leno: he loved hosting "The Tonight Show." Also, his staff had become like family to him, and he wanted to keep them employed, too.
Kinda looking at him for life advice tbh. His saying on having so many cars but only one wife is exactly how I want to live.
All this arguing about eating here and there hasn’t been accurate ratings in probably 10 years…
Millions of Conan fans say otherwise
No reasonable person would pick Jay over Conan. Over 60s don't count.
Conan sucked; he never deserved the tonight show. Conan had his celebrity friends pressure the press to get rid of Jay. Leno will always be better
All worked out for the best Conan doing his thing on TBS was better than anything he could have done with NBC
moving the tonight show to 12:05 would have killed the tonight show. conan was 100% right about that.. an unstoppable force vs an immovable object, put into opposition by network ninnies.
It's a pity Conan didn't just wait for his contract to expire in 2006 and pursue a show with an earlier time at *FOX* or *ABC.* They were eager to have him.
Conan should of stayed where he was. You see ambition is not good when it out ways the rest. Jay is mainstream and Conan is not. .. simples.
Or taken the offer from *ABC* or *FOX.* But instead Conan says yes to a deal that displaces Jay and his staff, and he has to wait 5 years for that to happen. It was the decision that set the entire Tonight Show debacle into motion.
Leno may have been more popular (because he’s more average). But Conan’s audience loves him more. And still does.
Fanatically so, which seems to blind Team CoCo to certain bad decisions Conan made that he needs to take some responsibility for.
@@gallery7596 Like what?
@@andybaldman Conan was not very cooperative during his time as "Tonight Show" host. For example, he assured all the *NBC* execs that he'd tailor his material to the 11:35pm audience, then admitted he had no intention of changing a thing. He was also reluctant to take their suggestions. They wanted him to go into the audience more, which he did for a while...and then skipped it. The network thought he should have the biggest stars early in his run to attract the new 11:35 audience, but by week 2 he booked his favourite, Norm MacDonald. A funny guy to be sure, but Norm's was more of a niche appeal. When the ratings were dropping, *NBC* wanted him to book Sarah Palin to get a ratings boost. Conan refused. He was afraid Dave Letterman wouldn't like that. Conan's getting crushed in the ratings, the network that made his dream of hosting "TTS" come true is losing money, and he won't book a hot guest because he's afraid to offend his biggest competitor?? Every talk show host had a time slot guarantee written into their contract- except Conan. If he hadn't neglected to get this, the network would not have been able to insist he move to 12:05am. At the time he signed the deal with *NBC* to drop Jay at the end of his contract so he could take over "The Tonight Show," Conan was getting huge offers from *ABC* and *FOX* to do a show of his own at that earlier hour. The *FOX* offer came with a salary that was almost double what *NBC* was going to pay him to wait 5 years. If he'd gone to one of those competing networks when they were so anxious to have him, nobody would've had to lose their job over it, and "The Tonight Show debacle" could've been averted.
@@gallery7596 That isn't called not being cooperative. It's called having values. And good for him for sticking by them. Not everyone needs to sell out their values for money.
@@andybaldman RE: *"That isn't called not being cooperative."*
-Being insincere with execs when they ask you about your show's direction,
-Resisting a simple request to interact more with the audience,
-Booking less famous comedians when your employers think you could lure more viewers with bigger names:
none of those are examples of being uncooperative, eh? Well, you might've felt differently if you were one of the executives who'd removed their #1 rated guy so that Conan could realize his dream of hosting "The Tonight Show."
I still can't stand Conan. He has too much of an ego! And a GOD complex! And that "Yeah No!" thing has got to go!! Andy and Max Weinberg were great at times. Anyhow I miss the way it was I loved most of the late-night fun! I even wrote a song and recorded it in a recording studio and had it put on my COOL FAME c.d. I think it was called!= Stay up this night???? I still own a lot of old vcr tapes with Letterman and Paul and Leno and Kenny- G???? on them. Jay should of had Kenny-G! 🌎 ✌
Yeah Jay is so "hard working". He has never had a stand up comedy special because he wants to be able to tell the same old jokes when he tours instead of working out new material.
he'll always pull in a crowd that way... unless Netflix offer him a few like 100's of millions to do a stand up show..
He is literally still making TV shows and performing well into his 70s. Hate him all you want, but to claim he doesn’t work hard just comes across as jealousy.
Howie, if you don’t have enough respect for me as a listener to be able to communicate without using foul language, I don’t care to listen to you. Stop being lazy.
Jay said he step aside for Conan years previous then essentially reneged that.
He never said that. He was forced out NBC because they agreed to Conan's demand before even talking to Jay,. Conan got Jay fired.
Jay saying the ratings are all that counts... I'm sorry and excuse my language here but that is such horseshit. Ratings do not necessarily determine how good a show is. Ratings are based on network viewership, lead-ins, and many other factors completely independent of a particular show.
My personal opinion and I think it's obvious to most is that if David Letterman had been at NBC and Leno at CBS, Letterman would have buried him into the ground. Johnny Carson's personal preference was that Letterman take his place. That alone should've been enough for Jay to be a man and say okay he should have it if that's what Johnny wants. Johnny hosted that show for 34 years and made it what it was.
People grew up idolizing David Letterman and so many comedians afterward cite him as a massive influence. I hear little to no people cite Leno as any sort of comedic influence beyond Jerry Seinfeld and even he appreciates more his standup and his obsession with cars. Jay Leno was not personal with his audience the way Dave or Conan was, he was like a one-night stand as a comic, no one you'd fall in love with. He did not pioneer anything novel and meaningful on his Tonight Show he essentially just tried to copy the Johnny Carson format. He had "Headlines" and "Jay-walking" I don't know of any other reasonably memorable things Jay did. For Dave I can think of probably at least 25, maybe more for Conan. He should not be within 3 tiers of Letterman or Conan I don't give a fuck what ratings were at the time if they took a poll now amongst comedy fans Leno would be crushed.
Conan O'Brien's reddit community has 150,000 members.
Jay Leno's has 42.
People do not care about memorializing his legacy to comedy because there is so little to memorialize. Nobody keeps archived collections of Leno's work, they do though for Letterman who was on the air 12 years before Leno did the tonight show.
Ratings this, ratings that why don't we see what the "ratings" on Jackie Robinson were in 1947 when he first stepped onto Ebbett's field.
He stabbed Conan in the back and he absolutely knows it. He may be very kind to his staff I don't question that but he lied straight through his teeth and into the cameras when he wished Conan all the success in the world. If he believed that he would not have even thought about staying at NBC, let alone doing a show a half hour before Conan's and pushing Conan's TONIGHT show into THE NEXT DAY. He was loyal to the NBC pinheads above being a decent person to his fellow comedy colleagues. Howard Stern hates him, Jimmy Kimmel hates him, Conan will not to this day even mention his name in a sentence after that disaster because of how badly he and NBC executives fucked him over.
David Letterman wasn't as angry at Jay as he was toward NBC but he had no love for him at all. He never went on his show once. You know what show Dave did go on? A little program that followed Jay hosted by a 30 year old kid named Conan O'Brien, he went on there 4 different times. Johnny Carson also never went on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. He made his final ever television appearance handing David Letterman his top ten list at CBS. Jay Leno was not respected by comedy greats and for the most part still isn't respected with any true sincerity because again there's just too little to appreciate.
He's a great stand-up comic he's very intelligent when it comes to comedy and he's a good man when it comes to his family and those who worked for him. But he was so intimidated and jealous of Conan O'Brien and David Letterman that he did what it took to stay on top.
He says he sleeps well at night, I certainly wouldn't.
At the end now, legacies are all that matter. He was "#1 in ratings" and that's all he has and it means so little. It would be like calling Pete Rose the greatest baseball player of all time because he had the most hits.
RE: "if David Letterman had been at NBC and Leno at CBS, Letterman would have buried him into the ground."
But when Dave went to *CBS,* he was an immediate hit and clobbered Jay in the ratings for literally years. But *NBC* stuck with Jay, he had a lucky break with the Hugh Grant appearance, and after that he was able to take over the #1 spot for the majority of their years in competition. Viewers don't seem to tune in just for the channel, or the title of a show. It's the host they want to watch, and Jay convincingly proved that most viewers preferred him.
RE: "Johnny Carson's personal preference was that Letterman take his place. That alone should've been enough for Jay to be a man and say okay he should have it if that's what Johnny wants."
But outgoing hosts don't get to decide who replaces them. *NBC* owns that show. They sign the cheques. Besides, if Johnny (who was getting rather lazy in his later years) had stepped down a few years earlier, Dave almost certainly would've been the network's choice to replace him. But by hanging in there too long while relying on Jay to guest host and bring in younger viewers, Johnny allowed Jay to prove himself as a serious contender.
@@gallery7596 casual viewers of late night at that time preferred Jay because he was always a good standup. Once the monologue is through you’ll get some decent laughs and keep watching.
But in terms of the talk show medium itself, Leno did nothing. Nobody archives his shows, little to no one shares clips online. He is a standup, he’s not anything else and it’s evident. His ego was too big and he inserted himself in a spot that was better for another entertainer and just about everybody knew it except for the NBC executives that he kissed up to.
That first fiasco is why Peter Lassally left NBC and moved with Dave to CBS after Carson retired. He was the executive producer of The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson, Late Night with David Letterman, The Late Show with David Letterman, and The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson (whom he chose himself).
NBC made the decisions but their brain trust is possibly the worst and most inept group of executives historically. They fired Chris Farley, Adam Sandler, and Norm MacDonald. Lorne didn’t do that, NBC went over his head to do that. They pushed David Letterman and Conan O’Brien out the door and treated other comedy legends without any dignity. It’s likely why Sandler has never hosted SNL.
I guess they were nicer to Howie when he did his little deal or no deal.
@@Shshshshshhshhs Jay's actually said that being humble is a good way to proceed in your career. I don't think his ego was any bigger than Letterman, Carson, Cavett, Griffin, Chase, or O'Brien for that matter. Their profession is full of egomaniacs, but since Jay emerged as the top-rated host of his era, that would clearly suggest he was underestimated.
Yes, and it took some convincing on Lassally's part to get Dave to leave. He was really torn about whether to turn down another network's offer in exchange for "The Tonight Show." And Lassally was right because if Dave had stayed, it would've been him getting put out to pasture for a younger host- and probably a lot sooner than they tried to do it to Jay. In fact not getting that show was the best thing that could've happened for the longevity of Dave's tv career- and yet he remained embittered about it for years. He just couldn't seem to recognize that he was better off at *CBS.* Pity Conan didn't also turn down *NBC's* "Tonight Show" offer and just went to *FOX.*
RE: "They pushed David Letterman and Conan O’Brien out the door and treated other comedy legends without any dignity. It’s likely why Sandler has never hosted SNL."
Sandler actually did host "SNL" a few years ago, and he sang a brilliant and touching song in tribute to (as he described him) "the great Chris Farley." However, yes, *NBC* has a history of mistreating it's on-air talent. A shame Conan didn't remember that when he made his own deal to get "The Tonight Show." Tragic error in judgement.
@@gallery7596 Jay Leno ended up with the most money but Conan, Dave, and Craig Ferguson are all revered by the majority of fans of having much better shows and being better people. Jay Leno is about as liked as Rob Schneider as a person in comedy. You can't deny you're in the minority.
@@Shshshshshhshhs I've heard Dave is actually worth more (Jay thinks so, too), and even though he was usually #2 in the ratings, *CBS* still paid him more than *NBC* did Jay.
I think Dave, Ferguson and certainly O'Brien have a stronger online following. However, if the general public felt those guy had better shows and were just better people, then why were more of them watching Jay?
RE: "Jay Leno is about as liked as Rob Schneider as a person in comedy."
I wasn't aware Rob was all that disliked. Sandler puts him in all his movies. Anyways, sure, Jay's controversial. But then so is Letterman. There was always a percentage of viewers who couldn't stand his smug, sarcastic persona- which is one of the reasons *NBC* didn't think he was right for "The Tonight Show." And his having to come clean about that sex scandal in 2009 sure didn't help Conan when he was trying to attract viewers. There was also the joke about Sara Palin's daughter that landed him in hot water. He fired his longtime producer Robert Morton. He had feuds with Bryant Gumbel and Joan Collins, two interviews with Jane Seymour were disasters. He p@ssed off Les Moonves at *CBS* and Cher famously called him an a%% h@l#. If one looks closely enough, it's clear that none of these guys are saints.
Jay's prime-time show was not doing well. It was killing the affiliates because their local news ratings were suffering and the new Conan Tonight show never recover from that whole issue.
It's true that the 10pm show was a flop that almost certainly affected Conan's ratings, too. However, it came along after months of Conan's "Tonight Show" losing to Letterman. So, now *NBC's* two top guys were failing, and they felt the only way to stop the ratings free fall was to put them both back where they'd been successful. Pity Conan didn't at least try it. He could always have resigned later.
@Gall ery Jay was losing to letterman when the Late Show started but he was given time to settle in.
Moving Leno to 1130 would have just been a step to get Conan out. They create a mini tonight show before the tonight show with even more issues with booking guests and ratings. It wouldn't have made sense.
Leno knew it too
@@fakeascanbe423 RE: [Jay] was given time to settle in."
That's true. But *NBC* was doing a lot better in those days. By 2009 their prime time schedule was largely without any hits, and the overall audience for network television by that time had greatly decreased. *NBC* may simply not have been able to afford to wait a period of years for Conan's ratings to improve.
RE: "Moving Leno to 1130 would have just been a step to get Conan out."
But *NBC* wanted Conan to stay. That was the whole point in 2004 of offering him "TTS" at Jay's expense. The network was terrified of losing Conan to another network. And despite the disappointing debut he'd made as host in 2009, *NBC* still wanted Conan to host "The Tonight Show."
RE: "Leno knew it too"
Jay wasn't immediately sold on the 30 minute show either and asked if he could get out of his contract. *NBC* said no. So, he couldn't just walk away without penalty.
@Gall ery
1. Leno was on that primetime schedule that tanked the affiliate news and Conan's lead ins. And the drop in network audiences affected every network, not just NBC. Yes, NBC could have given Conan time as long as Jay was willing to leave and not start a 4th late night show.
2. They offered Conan TTS because Jay said he'd retire. But he kept NOT retiring. It had become a joke that Leno was getting cold feet about leaving and sure enough he started implying he would look for other late night opportunities, presumably against TTS. NBC didn't "want Leno and Conan" they wanted a handoff and Leno didn't give it to them.
3. The 30 minute show would have killed the tonight show. We can agree there, right? The move only worked to help the local news because the Leno primetime show was doing so much damage. Conan was right in rejecting it. Saying that Leno didn't want to hurt Conan by moving to 1130 is ridiculous because it's what he kept threatening to do if NBC let him go! 🙄 Leno pulled all the strings and plays the accommodating employee.
Like Howie said, Jay is no dummy.
@@fakeascanbe423 RE: "Leno was on that primetime schedule that tanked the affiliate news and Conan's lead ins."
Yes, the 10pm show bombed, and even Jay said that it was no help to Conan's ratings. However, "The Tonight Show" was #1 when Jay turned it over to Conan, and within a week "Late Show With David Letterman" was for the first time in years #1 again in late night. This trend continued for months before Jay's prime time show premiered. So Conan has to take some responsibility for why he wasn't doing well.
RE: "And the drop in network audiences affected every network, not just NBC."
But *NBC* was no longer the #1 network as they had been in the early 90's when Jay took over. Back then they had hits like "Cosby" and "Cheers" with more on the way like "ER" and "Friends." Those were all gone by 2009, while *CBS* was riding high with it's CSI and NCIS franchises. Add to that the fact that they were going through the worst recession the country had seen in decades and one can see how important it was for *NBC* to get those ratings back up fast.
RE: "Yes, NBC could have given Conan time as long as Jay was willing to leave..."
But Conan's contract was closer to completion in 2004 than Jay's was, and Conan was getting huge offers to do a show with an earlier start time at *ABC* and *FOX.* Why didn't he just leave (like Letterman did) and start his own late night dynasty elsewhere?
RE: "They offered Conan TTS because Jay said he'd retire."
According to "The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane" by Bill Carter, the deal for Conan to take over "The Tonight Show" was made before Jay knew a thing about it. *NBC* asked Conan if he would be willing to wait until Jay's contract expired, and rather than consulting Jay (who had been a big supporter when O'Brien was off to a rocky start at "Late Night"), Conan said yes and let the network tell Jay of their decision. They asked Jay not to make a Letterman-style stink about it (which would've done nothing except embarrass Conan), so he graciously wished Conan well- never imagining that 5 years later *NBC* would start begging him not to leave.
RE: "But he kept NOT retiring. It had become a joke that Leno was getting cold feet about leaving and sure enough he started implying he would look for other late night opportunities,"
Like Conan did in 2004.
RE: "NBC didn't "want Leno and Conan" they wanted a handoff..."
Not by 2009 they didn't. Conan and Jay were both hot in 2004, but by 2009 Jay was still #1 at 11:35 while Conan at 12:35 was losing ground to Craig Ferguson. That's when *NBC* decided they might've made a mistake and offered Jay the 10pm show. That turned out to be a mistake, too, but they didn't want him going to *ABC* because the competition of both Dave and Jay at 11:35 would probably have crushed Conan like a bug. So either way, Conan's chances seemed slim. He made a big mistake not leaving earlier in the decade.
RE: "3. The 30 minute show would have killed the tonight show."
How do we know that?
RE: "The move only worked to help the local news because the Leno primetime show was doing so much damage."
It sounds like you're suggesting Jay was not responsible for the bad ratings of Conan's "Tonight Show" after all. That would mean that Conan was solely the reason he was getting beaten so badly by Letterman.
RE: "Saying that Leno didn't want to hurt Conan by moving to 1130 is ridiculous ..."
But as stated in my earlier post, when *NBC* proposed the 30 minute show to Jay, he asked if he could get out of his contract. *NBC* said no. He could not just walk away from this, and even the biggest Conan fan can't possibly expect Jay Leno to place himself in a position where *NBC* could take him to court, in order to suit the guy whose decision cost him "The Tonight Show" in the first place.
you don't have to know anything about anything to know what jay did is messed up. jay explained inadvertently explained it in this video.
jay says when he started the tonight show he was behind letterman's cbs show for *18 months*. jay got 18 months to find his audience. conan had the tonight show for exactly three months before he was following leno again on NBC, effectively becoming jay's follow up act again. leno's huge following would still watch leno and turn off at conan just like it did for all the years when conan was on at 12:35. conan never got the 18 months to find his footing, and it's 100% jay's fault.
Seems like a lot of people still does not understand that jay was ASKED to do the lead in show, and still he gets hate like he stole something from Conan. 😅
Because Conan dishonestly changed the narrative to his fan base to make himself out to be an innocent victim. Conan was the one claiming he had the job stolen from him and his sheep audience ate it up. Conan is not the innocent angel his fan base makes him out to be.
He didn't demand anything, but he gave up the Tonight Show, bombed at 10pm, they basically offered him the Tonight Show again...AND HE TOOK IT. He retired, they hired his replacement, then he walked back in, said "thanks, kid", then took his job back. That's what people were mad at.
Also, The Tonight Show at 12am is the tomorrow show. Let's call it what it is.
Leno didn't retire. NBC replaced him with Conan. Did you watch what he said? It's common knowledge: Conan leveraged his appeal so NBC would promise to give him The Tonight Show in five years. Leno was a grownup about it, and didn't complain. He just did his five years as #1 and then left. He didn't "retire" and then "unretire" to take back something he gave up. He never "gave it up," he was gently pushed out. When NBC had buyer's remorse about Conan, they asked Leno back. Why crucify a man for saying yes to a job offer?
'At the end of the day' comment is overused
Did Howie watched the 10pm Leno show and its poor ratings? Even the news dropped close to 50% in viewership after the Leno show and that killed leadin for the tonight show as well.
Did you watch the entire podcast? Jay said he knew it would be a failure from the start. And no it did not kill the lead in for Conan. Conan's "comedy" was not going to fly with the people who actually tuned into the Tonight Show. He killed his own ratings.
Dick Ebersol, NBC exec, took one look at Conan on the Tonight Show and said this will never work mainstream. I still think Ebersol was correct.
The daughter needs to 🤫
You all all chook chook and a business that is like the worst thing I can think of.
Why is Mandel popular?
OMG stern are you high?!? Hissy fit?! Who Conan?!?!
It doesn't matter if you were number 1
Your contract was over 10,5 5 years contract.
You already stole from Letterman than you stole from Conan
What a surprise. Howard stern full of crap? This seems to be a trend.
John Melendez was the funniest thing on and from The Howard Stern Show!! I can definitely see why Jay wanted him to be apart of the show! Howard was only funny and good when he had guests like Gilbert Gottfried on!
It runs like that still. 😃 I would like to see more of John Melendez,please try to help him get back into the publics eye Guy's! #johnmelendez
Yeah @dannyburleigh but he was an asshole to Artie Lange on his and Anthony's podcast. Dude is straight disrespectful. Watch the TH-cam video
LMAO Nice Try Stuttering John!
You think Stuttering John was funny? Holy cow!!