Why Jay Leno Was Fired w/ Jimmy Kimmel
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2022
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Bill Maher and Jimmy Kimmel randomly riff on why Bill hates hockey, how Bill's advice could have cost Jimmy millions, the Conan O’Brien-Jay Leno feud during the late night wars, why Jimmy loves David Letterman, Jimmy’s high profile friends, and how Jimmy saw Bill and Jerry Seinfeld in concert when he was in college.
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The most fascinating part of this video to me is "Why does it sound like it's Bill Maher's first time hearing this story??" Does he sincerely not know the Conan/Leno drama?
He does these podcasts stoned. Glad HBO doesn't let him do that when he's hosting "Real Time."
I love that bill talks out of his butt with such authority, only to find out he knew nothing at all. Sums up my entire opinion on him as a person, its just nice and concide in this one clip.
Bill Maher is so ignorant it is disgusting.
Bill has had *way too long* of *Jeer and Cheer cued crowds* to know how to ask questions when ignorant or unsure rather than make didactic statements when the facts are laughably contrary.
That's basically all he does , and he does it with confidence and when "debating" he's main strategy is ridiculing the other party rather than reply and discuss. Shows you how long confidence can take you even if you're full of hot air in this age
@@cloverharvest1145 yeah or he'll just say some basic facts very smugly and refuse to accept that there is nuance to the subject. "Well who cares about that because of this" *smug face intensifies*
Well, I generally like Bill Maher, so let's hope he was learning.
You can tell jimmy knows a lot and what actually happened but doesnt want to explain it because you can explain certain logic to people that are completely missing it
Maher is too busy trying to fit himself into the story the whole time to shut his mouth and actually listen to someone who has insight into what happened. Then Jimmy shows a sense of inherent fairness/sportsmanship by saying he wouldn't have done that/it made him uncomfortable and Bill is like 'Are you crazy, I'd step over the body of my dead mother to get ahead!'
Jimmy is a sex trafficking monster
@@123nickman123 Maher is a complete disingenuos scumbag.
Jimmy doesn’t know as much as you think. He knew more basic facts than Maher but his analysis is so off.
First of all, those 10pm NBC dramas were not doing well. That’s why NBC was willing to try the 10pm Jay Leno idea.
And Conan’s show was already suffering before Leno’s show came along.
The 10pm show definitely hurt but a lot of it was because they had to make concessions to Conan and the affiliates that hurt its chances of ever making it.
Leno couldn’t have a desk and also a guest stick around so it would be differentiated from Conan’s show.
The best bits from Leno’s show also had to go at the end so it would provide a lead in to the news which ruined the rhythm.
But Conan was already hurting himself with his bad show.
Lol 🥶🍟🐣🐟🍼
Really glad Bill was so prepared for this conversation.
He was busy smoking pot
That’s what prepared looks like? I’d hate to see unprepared.
Not
Man, you guys are still bitter about Leno huh? 😂
@@kangaroofootEver heard of sarcasm?
This is the most real I’ve EVER seen Kimmel, man I think I like this version of him 1000% more than the tv version.
You have to put on an act on those shows. Even Jimmy Fallon is off the show.
he is stoned
Jimmy’s voice sounds deeper here.
If he talked like this on his show he'd be fired in a week
I personally really like Jimmy Kimmel his show has for sure gotten too mainstream but to me he always seemed the most genuine and actually funny compared to all these other late night robots.
“Oh so he did stay 5 years?” - WTF HOW STONED ARE YOU BILL? 😢
he hardly knows about the recession during covid... what do you expect?
Bill Maher is such a scumbag. Always making up things about liberals that aren't true. He's like Judge Judy. Not nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Did I mention he's a scumbag? I did? Good. It can't be said enough.
He seems to be having a hard time keeping up with the conversation at points.
A good rule of thumb reinforced here: It's probably not a good idea to interview someone when you're stoned.
The one of this podcast is literally bill talking shit. Get with the program
Or someone who knows more about the topic than you 😅
Jimmy taking conans side here makes me respect him more
You gotta love Bill speaking about the situation with total confidence...and then being repeatedly surprised about key details 🤨
He keeps accusing Jimmy of hating Jay, but fails to recognize his point of view is skewed by his fondness of Jay.
No bill is a weasel just like Leno was a weasel
But Kimmel's point of view is, I suspect, affected by his reverence for Dave Letterman, and hanging out so much with a shock-jock/Leno hater like Stern.
Bill has become such a whiny "kids get off my lawn" boomer. I can't watch him anymore. he just whines about the same shit every episode. He's insufferable.
@@gallery7596 don’t you think having a genuine friendship with Stern and an admiration/friendship with Letterman makes it so that what happened with Leno as he describes here convinced him solidly that Jay has poor character? He said Jay called him all the time, they spoke about stuff other than talk shows, he thought they were becoming friends and then when Jay’s ABC show was off the table the friendship is over. It seems to me Kimmel thinks to himself, “oh so what all my friends say about Leno is true.”
@@jameshershberger8085 It doesnt matter about their perspective, the facts show Leno to be a dishonest and selfish man
Conan’s interview with Letterman after all the drama settles is great. Conan didn’t deserve how things played out. I blame Conan for my Insomnia since the 90’s, lol.
None of them deserved it, but Conan set that debacle in motion when he agreed to *NBC's* dumb 5 year plan.
what i always found interesting in all this is that jimmy is team conan/letterman while his good man show buddy adam corollo is team jay leno and hates conan's guts.
@@gallery7596 carolla spilled everything about it to bill simmons on a bs podcast when bill was still with espn. Apparently one time conan had carolla on the late show on nbc and supposed adam though that o'brien came off as rude and insincere to him. So I guess he held a grudge. And kimmel has stated with jay, carolla and jay like to work on antique cars together and exchange them, so they have that common hobby which drew them closer. Hence, carolla is team leno while you see here jimmy is team conan.
ima just glad they all got paid.
"Whatever you do, dont blame conan"
"Nobody is blaming Conan" 🤣
I love when Bill just goes off into a strawman argument and the uses it as fact.
Not just strawman, but fully conclusive without knowing a single fact about the situation. The whole second half of the conversation was Bill saying "Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that happened? Oh really?"
@@hutch1197 Perhaps Bill was playing it coy, or was so caught up in launching his HBO show at the time that he lost touch with what transpired in his old time slot on ABC.
Bill's one of those people I just ignore as much as possible because he so often just grabs an opinion and fires it out there. I have no idea why he's a thing. He's acting like he didn't know extremely basic facts about this sequence of events, like that Conan took the NBC gig instead of going to ABC.
I only clicked on this for Kimmel's reaction; I never click on anything with Bill otherwise.
@@joelrasdall7662Blah blah blah. Bill's HBO show is great. The last sane voice with a platform.
I like that Jimmy has always had Conan’s back
I've never seen Kimmel shirtless, but that's an interesting and quite peculiar trivia, thanks
@@juancpgo What? Have you seen Bill Maher topless?
@@juancpgo 😅
Jimmy crushed Leno when he had him on his show via satellite... just embarrassed him.. “Leave our show’s alone, Jay!”
Mainly, Jimmy's a Dave supporter.
older conan and craig ferguson are miles ahead of todays late night
They're not even talking about current events and they're still more entertaining.
I have no idea why NO ONE ever mentions Craig when talking about these shows. This is the first comment I've seen in YEARS that wasn't mine mentioning Ferguson.
Yes Jimmy fallon and Seth what ever his name is suck big time
@@TIOLIOfficial I fucking love craig ferguson. Unfortunately I only discovered him a couple of years ago on youtube and never got to experience watching him every night on tv. I love Conan's stuff but I can't really sit through interviews with celebrities. Ferguson is the only guy I can watch interview celebrities he's fucking great.
Those 2 are great true but kimmel is great too he doesn't shy away to go after stupid politician
For a guy who appears to have all the answers Bill seems genuinely surprised at many things here 😂
Conan was so great on the late show. He got everyone on his staff paid and you could tell he is a kind hearted guy who puts others first
His buddies wanted him to take the abc slot so he felt guilty keeping them on, that's one of the reasons why he made sure they got paid.
@@dejesusb8598 you're backing Robbie Rotten?
Leno took a 50% pay cut so that none of his staff would have to be laid off. So both were very loyal to their crew.
Jay leno is the same.
For sure, everyone except his associate producer Jordan Schlansky.
Another problem for Conan's Tonight Show: if your lead-in is another late night talk show, then your late night talk show playing immediately afterwards at night becomes redundant. Putting Jay before Conan obviously was going to poison Conan's chances for success. I mean, the whole deal was shady.
Are there any network late night talk shows that AREN’T airing immediately before or after another talk show? For better or for worse, that seems to be the case for every single one. Some seem to pull fairly good viewership in the second slot as well; Seth Meyers comes to mind.
Many of the current lead-ins were promoted from the second slot as well.
Jay's "Tonight Show" was a strong lead-in for "Late Night With Conan O'Brien," and Jay even appeared on Conan's show. During Conan's first rocky season hosting "Late Night" the network was prepared to fire him, but Jay counseled them to stick with him and promised to end every telecast with "stay up for Conan" - which he did. Conan absolutely had reason to be grateful to Jay for the support he had received all those years at *NBC.*
@@abcdefg2120 Hmm...I think the Jay show really cut into Conan's Tonight Show--they were kind of redundant, really.
@@gallery7596 Strange, that's not how most people see it, including Conan. He had the opportunity to leave NBC 5 years before taking on the Tonight Show, but they made a deal with him which I don't believe included keeping Leno in the line up.
@@marshallross3373 I wouldn't expect Conan to see it Jay's way, but he can't deny the fact that Jay's success at 11:35 provided "Late Night" with a strong lead-in for many years, and that Jay always encouraged his audience to watch Conan.
RE: "He had the opportunity to leave NBC 5 years before taking on the Tonight Show, but they made a deal with him which I don't believe included keeping Leno in the line up."
Correct, and it wounded Jay deeply that Conan made this deal without at least consulting him first (so he wouldn't be shocked by the news that *NBC* was dropping him in favour of this guy he had helped out along the way).
Out of all the late night shows Conan was always my favorite. He was definitely the funniest out of all the late night shows.
The reason why almost everyone loves the first 5 seasons of The Simpsons is because Conan was one of the lead writers
@@Bingo_the_Pug I literally didn’t know that
@@Bingo_the_Pug He only wrote like a few episodes. He gets way too much credit for his 2 seasons as a writer on that show.
I think conan is overrated.Leno and Letterman in the other hand have always been funny and entertaining.
Are they high, they both sound high to me 🤷🏼♀️ 🤣
I agree with Jimmy about it being diabolical. Jay promised on air to give the show to Conan and announced it publicly many times. I've watched his interviews about it and I listened to him very closely and ultimately he didn't want to give up his show, and he believed that he was the only one who could do it. He did the same thing to Letterman when it was implicitly understood that Dave was to get the show after Johnny Carson retired- it's literally on record that Jay hid in a closet to spy on the network to figure out how to get the Tonight Show- that's how badly he wanted it! He lied to the public and to Conan under a bad faith promise and then turned around and quietly sabotaged him while trying to play the nice guy; Mr. "I don't want any drama" and yet drama somehow keeps following him. He knew exactly what he was doing to Conan. Conan uprooted his entire staff and his family from NY to move to LA to do the Tonight show after Jay's bad faith promise to the WORLD that Conan would get his show. Jay never had any intention of giving up his show, and that's why Jimmy is absolutely spot on here- diabolical is the word!
RE: "Jay promised on air to give the show to Conan and announced it publicly many times."
If you watch all of Jay's interviews on the topic, you will hear him state that *NBC* wanted him to publicly give his approval to the decision that Conan would get the show. Jay complaining about it would not have changed *NBC's* mind. Jay still would have had to go, and complaining would only have brought criticism of Conan for the way he went about getting Jay's job.
RE: "[Jay] did the same thing to Letterman when it was implicitly understood that Dave was to get the show after Johnny Carson retired-"
According to "The Late Shift," *NBC* was telling both Dave and Jay that they had the inside track on inheriting "The Tonight Show" when Carson retired. That was their way of holding onto BOTH guys. You can't blame Jay for *NBC* manipulating the two of them like that.
RE: "it's literally on record that Jay hid in a closet to spy on the network..."
The president of programming thought that Jay might have had their offices bugged. And yet...they still chose Jay. That should tell you something about who they preferred for the show.
RE: "He lied to the public and to Conan under a bad faith promise."
Jay didn't have the power to promise his job to anybody. *NBC* makes those decisions. Not outgoing hosts.
RE: "...and then turned around and quietly sabotaged him..."
*NBC* changed their minds when by 2009 Conan was losing ground at 12:35am to Craig Ferguson while Jay at 11:35pm was still #1. That's when they talked Jay into staying.
RE: "Mr. "I don't want any drama" and yet drama somehow keeps following him."
Consider the corporation he worked for. That's just how *NBC* treated their on-air talent.
RE: "Conan uprooted his entire staff and his family from NY to move to LA to do the Tonight show"
Yes, and after all that upheaval that resulted from his quest to host "The Tonight Show," Conan chose to resign and put all those people out of work.
If we're going to be fair, then we have to look at any controversy from ALL sides. Not just the side we like best.
Jay was a shark. He understood the business and did everything to protect his "turf."
Jay was "forced" to say this. Contractually speaking.
leno was a scumbag, stop defending him
everybody in the industry knew this, and knew not to trust him. conan was just naive
@@tylerwinkle323 Yes, Conan was naive about how *NBC* treats it's on-air talent. If he'd consulted Leno before greenlighting the network's weird 5 year plan, Jay could've reminded Conan that he, too signed a long term agreement for "the Tonight Show" in exchange for turning down *CBS.* But when Jay got what they promised him, *NBC* turned around and offered the show to Dave when he threatened to go to *CBS.*
That's just the way *NBC* rolls, and Conan was pretty daft thinking they wouldn't do the same thing to him that they did to Jay and Dave.
So, Conan has to take some responsibility for what happened.
This goes deeper than that. I was working for a local station back then. Conan Tonight show ratings were off the chart all summer until Jay Leno started the 10 o'clock. Issue was that now majority of people watched Jay Leno at 10 and shut their TVs off. The ratings for the 11 o'clock news were nearly cut in half for us.
Which station? Because nationally, Conan's "Tonight Show" started falling behind Letterman's show by the end of their first week in competition.
@@gallery7596not true. They even have public stated it. Rating drop with jay. He “ knew a lot about ratings.” a.k.a. he knew the logistics of how to make something work, and how to make something not work, which is why he made it not work by taking the news afterwards to have them be mad enough to take Conan off the air.
@@karinalumen9722 RE: "Rating drop with jay."
I would suggest reading Bill Carter's excellent book "The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane." Conan was failing before Jay's 10pm show premiered.
RE: "[Jay] knew a lot about ratings.”
Nobody in show business knows which shows will succeed, and which ones will flop. It's ALL a gamble.
RE: "...he made it not work by taking the news afterwards to have them be mad enough to take Conan off the air.
*NBC* created the 10pm show. Not Jay. And intentionally hosting a big flop could've ended Jay's chance of ever hosting another network show.
It just makes no sense. Jay and Conan both made mistakes, but *NBC* thinking they could hold onto both guys is where the fault lies.
No they were not. The show sucked when he was on it.
@@karinalumen9722 What if I told you that this person you're engaging with (@Gallery) is actually a notorious tr011? Just search "Leno vs Conan" and click the first 5 videos that come up on TH-cam. I will bet my salary that you'll find @Gallery's anti-Conan comments under ALL of those videos. This person has no life to live, so they spend all their time hating on conan online. I was able to trace @Gallery's comment history back to 9 years. He has been doing this for 9 years. THe same old talking points that defend Leno and demonize conan, the same old lies. Relentless. I've noticed this sick person's comments on like 12 videos so far.
Bill so stoned he can't follow what Jimmy is telling him.
100%
There's also the story of Jay hiding in closets during executive meetings way back when him and David letterman had there issues going. He's always been a sneaky weasel.
@@dickbiggerjr3613 Jay turned down a major offer from *CBS* in exchange for "The Tonight Show," and then *NBC* offered the show to Dave when he threatened to leave. If Jay wanted to know what they were deciding about the next 20 years of his life then I don't see any reason to feel sorry for sneaky execs playing games with both guys' careers.
100%. It's funny seeing so many on here have no clue when someone is just plain ol' faded.
Bill is sooo annoying when he’s not stoned. This is painful!!😵💫
The other issue that no one talks about is that in those intervening 5 years, Conan gradually altered the format of his show in order to retain as many Leno viewers as possible once he took over. Less dark/absurd sketches and less playing with the format, more packaged joke delivery systems (Celebrity Survey, etc). When Leno stayed on the air, that all became for nothing; it just made the Tonight Show less appealing to people who loved his 90s 12:30 show.
RE: "Conan gradually altered the format of his show in order to retain as many Leno viewers as possible once he took over."
It didn't seem to work for him at 12:35am either because while Jay's "Tonight Show" was still #1, "Late Night with Conan O'Brien" was losing viewers to Craig Ferguson.
@@gallery7596 Ferguson blew Conan's doors off. That show was great!
None of that is true. Conan went out of his way to let every know he wasn't going to change. Any "altered format" was the natural evolution of the show.
Finally a comment that makes sense, actually Conan was never good on this type of shows ,scripted shows, Conan is funny when he is unleashed, when he has no censorship, but in this woke erra you dont make BIG MONEY from speaking freely. Conan tanked on TBS... i mean how can you lose your show on TBS ! Beacause he never made great ratings.
@@forGODtv Conan was great at doing remotes
This is why doing interviews stoned isn’t always for the best
Bill not understanding dignity, honor, professionalism, and respect is very on character for him. I wouldn’t expect anything less of him.
Gee, Bill, imagine that you might not have the whole story for maybe a millisecond.
A totally insufferable man is Maher
I really don't like him, I just watch this for the guests. Bill is someone I otherwise actively stay away from.
Too egotistical for that 🤣
Look, this story has been spun so many different ways that only Jay and Conan know what happened and both of them have survived and came out of the battle with a bundle of money and isn't that all that really matters. Frankly, the current host of The Tonight Show is rated last of the three, Colbert, Kimmel then Fallon so, it's turned out that the NBC Executives still can't figure out who to put on a late night show that hasn't dominated since Carson left in 1992.
@@safebans1369 And that cigarette is pretty gross. Just sayin'😬
I love how this show is supposed to be 2 chill guys smoking pot, but it ends up just Bill getting stoned by himself lol
Bill very good at letting down Bill's guard. Trusts Jimmy and Jay.
Oh, I think Jimmy is high as a kite.
If this is how Bill "chills" IRL I would expect him to get stoned alone quite a bit 🤣 who the hell wants to argue endlessly while stoned?
And he talks the entire episode lol cuts the guest off cause he’s stoned as hell
Bill misses all those decades getting gonorrhea at the Playboy Mansion.
I'd say that Jay has done even better after he left the show.
How is it that Bill Maher does not know this stuff? It's on the internet and everyone knows what Jay did to Conan.
Conan did some stuff to Jay, too. However, Bill's problem here seems to be that he's just stoned.
@@gallery7596I know, right? LOL. Perhaps Bill was not in the game like Jay and Dave were. His show moved from Comedy Central to ABC until they fired him in 2002 where months later, Jimmy Kimmel replaced him. So, I wonder about Bill's playing dumb, or stoned. LOL.
@@johnsjohnson448 I say stoned. When this was actually happening in the news around 2009-2020, the best, most quotable observations came from Bill Maher. Example: *"When Leonardo Dicaprio gets a script does he go 'I'd really like to do this, but Jake Gyllenhaal had his heart set on it. Would I be ruining his dream?"*
Bill kinda let Jay (and himself) down by coming to the conversation high.
@@gallery7596 Bill seems to act dumb (or stoned) because he was in the thick of it. His show moved from Comedy Central to ABC where it aired against the final half hour of Dave's and Jay's programs. Jimmy replaced Bill's show on ABC.
@@johnsjohnson448 Well, maybe. But it was a lot of years after "Politically Incorrect" was cancelled that "The Tonight Show" debacle occurred.
its interesting hearing jimmy speak causally and honestly rather than joking mixed with seriousness which his show has.
Kimmel is awful
Kimmel's show has become establishment propaganda. It isn't comedy. Same for Colbert.
@@josephpeeler5434 so was Carson. You insult a politician and you are now their devoted blind followers enemy. 4000 court judgements? Are you kidding me. Your candidates a crook, people will make fun. Sorry that’s why dictators don’t allow free TV. And that’s why you don’t like the shows. But hey maybe your dictator can end the US next election.
@@slipjones2 It looks like the late night shows parrot the establishment line. They give the Democrats a pass. They are propagandists for one party. That isn't comedy.
LOl Honestly? He literally doged two legit questions to make a baseless claim about Jay. Kimmel got completely exposed for the weasel he is here.
The look on Maher's face when someone tells him that he doesn't know everything is priceless. Kimmel's revelation here is like Kristal Ball reminding him that COVID caused the banks to crash briefly.
LOOL what? Kimmel had his bias laid out for all to see. Bill asked him legit questions and he dodged them to make baseless claims. Billl absolutely exposed him for the clown he is.
She was immediately speaking to this Bill Maher, who just lights up on air, not the suit and tie Maher.
First of all Krystal Ball* and literally no recession happened. The market dipped but the Saudis saved us that's why gas was so cheap. Krystal was wrong and now subsequently you are as well
@@briano9397 yee Krystal is dim and opportunistic
@@briano9397 gas was not the problem in the beginning of the pandemic. The markets' reaction to the severity of the pandemic was the problem which caused a brief recession. You have no idea what you're talking about.
The government literally had to give out stimulus checks bcs the economy for the most part was shut down briefly. That's a form of economic recession.
I think the point that a lot of people miss with this Late Night drama is that these hosts were just pawns for these networks. Networks are really only concerned with ratings and profit, as they should be. But these hosts in this late night shuffle seemed to think it was personal.
You are right the hosts don’t own their time slots. But when you work somewhere for 20+ years it does start to feel personal when one become King of Late Night
What's sad is it never mattered in the end. Talk shows are on their way out.
That's kinda true. Anyone can do a podcast and watch it whenever or check out a show's highlights a couple hours after it airs.
Was coming on precisely at 11:35pm really so important?
This show would be better if Maher wasn't high. He asks questions that have been answered repeatedly.
…and seems totally incapable of integrating new information that challenges his superficial though self assured analysis. Several times kimmel explains where Maher has it wrong just based on lack of understanding of the facts…each time Maher is like “wait what?…er…but anyway back to my tired sound bite. …”
Right! So annoying
He's trying to be Joe Rogan 😛
Yeah he’s a zombie here.. some people can stay on point when stoned, but it doesn’t seem like he’s one of those people.
I don't think he's going for full-on professionalism here. He has one high pressure job and just wants to do something looser.
"oh he did stay 5 years?" how is bill talking so much about something he clearly knows nothing about
Cuz he doesn’t want to believe that Jay would do something shady or underhanded, apparently.
Because that's his m.o.
I like hearing Jimmy talking straight, instead of hearing him talk in character.
Jimmy isn’t willing to just agree with everything bill says which is weird to see
Jay Leno doomed himself when he announced, on his show, that he would be passing the Tonight Show to Conan 4 years later. If he never had any intention of leaving, Jay shouldn't have made the announcement at all. I think that's the root of the issue. How good is Jay Leno's word? It's not about just helping advance Conans career at all.
RE: "If he never had any intention of leaving, Jay shouldn't have made the announcement at all."
In 2004 Conan signed a deal with *NBC* that would be deciding Jay's retirement date for him. Jay had no power to overturn this decision, but *NBC* appealed to him not to publicly complain about it (Letterman style) so as to avoid embarrassment for all concerned- including Conan. Jay was gonna have to go no matter what, so he graciously chose to conceal his hurt and wished Conan well. How could he know in 5 years time *NBC* would start begging him to stay? Being a good sport did bite Jay in the butt. And this when Conan could've respectfully consulted Jay (so the news of his deal wouldn't have been such a shock), and maybe he even would've gotten Jay's blessing. But instead, Conan just let the network inform Jay (who had helped Conan during his late night career) that he would be out at the end of his contract.
And still people insist Jay's the bad guy.
That always amazes me.
Its a business, not personal. Jay did what he was hired to do. Blame NBC, if you fee like there is a villan - even then it is a corporation trying to make money.
Yes, as Oprah Winfrey said at the time "I feel like those who are angry at Jay don't understand how television works."
It was 5 years, not 4, and he was forced to. And my sensibilities are much more team Coco.
He’s allowed to change his mind. It’s not like him and Conan were close friends
bahahaha, dude kimmels voice drops a whole octave when he's ripped
Lmfao
He got Covid twice , might be that
😂 I was thinking that too.
weed will do that to many vocal chords
Jesus Christ you’re right. I thought it was Buffalo Bill at first haha
To me the bottom line is the tv execs manipulated the situation from every conceivable angle, and it was inevitable that feelings would get hurt, and the the comedians in question would be pitted against each other and put in situations where they had little choice but to look out for themselves at the expense of the others. The whole thing is sad, as they all seem like good people to me.
*NBC* just seemed incapable of understanding you can't keep two people who want the same thing. But they tried (again), and it was a disaster.
Exactly. No idea why the hosts all blame each other for a decision that way made on a corporate level.
Then again, some of them seem rather thin skinned. I mean Jimmy being so hurt just because he never got a call back sounds like soap opera level relationships to me.
Just like in every day jobs. People get "screwed." Only the do not get to walk away with millions to salve the wounds.
Capitalism. LOL. Often times, these "types" never know that they are either being hired or fired until it lands in the "trades."
@@0ntimetaiment921Jimmy wasn’t hurt that Jay stopped calling, he said it to point out Jay’s hypocrisy. You thinking it was about Jimmy getting hurt says something about the way you see things. lol
Genuine Kimmel hits way harder than TV Kimmel.
You can really tell the difference between Maher and Jimmy's characters when Maher shows himself to be totally incapable of understanding Jimmy's perspective that maybe a decent person would opt not to give the shaft to their colleague for the sake of getting a couple more years on the air. Giving weight to someone else's interests in that way just seems like a totally foreign concept to Maher, whereas it seems like second nature to Jimmy.
It is kind of weird. Maher is showing an attitude here that is generally used by the right to justify a lot of things that Maher himself is against. Maher went all Ayn Rand for a moment and decided that people should always act selfishly without considering the impact on others. Maher brain fart maybe?
Yep. Something called character. Jimmy's got it in spades. He'd make a great friend. I wonder how many real friends Bill has.
"maybe a decent person would opt not to give the shaft to their colleague for the sake of getting a couple more years on the air."
Didn't Conan give Leno the shaft first by trying to force him out of the Tonight Show?
Self righteous is more like it lol
we need to seize Mahers bank accounts and check to see if he isn't giving money to Trump or the Russians
After this, I have to go back and watch Dave responding to Jay’s “Don’t blame Conan”.
We could blame Conan. His decisions lead to a lot of the havoc that occurred during that time.
I am not blaming Conan, or Lonnie Donnegan!
Warren Littlefield and John Agolia did the same with Jay in regards to Johnny Carson. At the time, Jay was the hottest comic in town and he was already guest hosting The Tonight Show at the point so NBC gave him the show scheduled for whenever Johnny stepped down. As Warren Littlefield famously said: "we gotta make sure the future is secured"
When Jimmy did his Top 10 with Leno right after it happened was one of the best grillings ever.
Leno dropped hints about a possible move to ABC. I used to watch him all the time. I think around '08 I remember him mentioning it in his monologue. One day a 5 pointer hit the LA area and that night Leno joked he went over to the ABC studios to seek shelter. It was a subtle hint to address the speculation at the time.
Yes, it's confirmed in "The War For Late Night" that Jay was in talks with *ABC* (and Jimmy) to come over there to host a new 11:35pm show. It was only when *NBC* offered him the prime time spot (and 2 years guaranteed employment for his staff) that Jay decided to turn down the *ABC* offer.
I'll never forget Conan's Tonight Show set. Classiest set in late night. When your lead-in is the old show, how do you expect the new show to get any traction, like anything new, the first 2 years is figuring it out. Look at Colbert's Late Show, year 1-2 were very different from year 3+, he wasn't political because he was trying to distance himself from his old Report show. Now, he's mostly political. Even when they first announced Conan was getting the TS 5 years early, even as a teenager I said, that's a weird guarantee.
Conan was always the most talented. It's not disputable.
Amazing how keeping your word is inconceivable to Maher.
Seems that NBC should've followed what they did in the 90s and had Jay slowly take more nights off and had guest hosts and then slowly build the selected guest host up with more air time
Yes, but the thing is Johnny, who was 67, only doing 3 shows a week, and taking frequent vacations, had been going on auto pilot for some time. Whereas Jay was still bringing in the ratings, attracting all ages, and clearly nowhere near the point yet where he should be stepping down. That forced retirement was a major miscalculation on the part of *NBC.*
Jay never had a guest host.
Jay only wanted people to look at him. Nobody else mattered (in his mind), not even his guests.
I could not stand a Jay.
If a guest said something funny. Jay constantly and immediately tried to top them with a “funnier” joke. His jokes were always lame to me. Mr. Obvious, if you me.
(Conan is the real genius.)
Jay is a major douche bag, too.
Trust me.
In the middle of his Tonight Show run he stopped in to my little rinky-dinky town during a city wide car show.
He was treated like a God. Everybody appeared gracious and friendly. I didn’t see him but a relative of mine did. He said Jay was extremely kind as well.
So of course, for the next episode of the Tonight show the whole town tuned in to hear if he would bring up his visit.
Well,…that piece of shi( ) did.
He made 3 consecutive jokes about how fat everyone was in this little town he “worked at” over the weekend.
First of all, he didn’t work anywhere near here. Secondly, that scumbag kicked sand in the face of 100’s of people who treated him like a God.
Scumbag, from head to toe.
Bill Maher is the poster boy of "what would a heel say?"
I’m conflicted. A part of me agrees with Bill. Why is Jay Leno getting the bad rap for this? Why not the NBC executives for putting both of these guys in this predicament?
I feel bad for Leno in this situation. I mean, they came to *him* and said, "You're stepping down in five years." He didn't go to them, say he wanted to retire, and then change his mind (or even break down and come back because they threw a bunch of money at him).
I DO agree with Letterman, however, that if he wanted to keep going he should have gone to ABC, CBS or whoever and negotiated a better deal for himself, rather than sticking with the people who already screwed him over.
I think it's a little far-fetched to say that he schemed his way into the 10 p.m. timeslot in order to sabotage Conan. Presumably NBC offered him that in order to keep him from going to ABC (which, again, he really just should have done at that point, provided the Peacock wasn't offering him more money).
I also agree with Maher, however, that it's not Leno's responsibility to do what's best for Conan. If he had just said "No" when NBC first tried to make him step down and threatened to sue the pants off them if they tried to force him out, I'd have no problem with him.
@@gallery7596 RE: Yes, I think Jay would've been better off going to ABC if only to spare himself the over-the-top criticism and denunciation he's received from Team Coco for the last 14 years. I think the result would probably have been the same for Conan (ratings annihilation trying to compete against both Dave and Jay resulting in a short reign as host of 'The Tonight Show"). But at least nobody could've spun that into some underhanded plot hatched by Jay Leno. However, if Jay chose to overlook the shoddy treatment he received at the hands of NBC's less-than-faithful executive branch, then I guess that's his right.
RE: RE: "...a little far-fetched to say that he schemed his way into the 10 p.m. timeslot in order to sabotage Conan."
RE: That's just a conspiracy theory Team Coco uses to divert the blame away from Conan for his bad ratings. Besides, the 10pm show was NBC's idea, and I don't think they would ever conceive a program that was designed to cost them millions in lost ad revenue.
RE: RE: "Presumably NBC offered him that in order to keep him from going to ABC"
RE: Yes, because by 2009 Jay was still #1 at 11:35pm, whereas Conan at 12:35am was losing viewers to Ferguson, we really can't blame NBC for being fearful of losing Jay Leno to a competing network.
RE: RE: "...it's not Leno's responsibility to do what's best for Conan."
RE: In 2004 Conan green lit an NBC proposal he knew was deciding Jay's retirement date. And even though he said he owed Jay a lot for all the support he'd given him through the years, Conan left it to NBC to blindside Jay with the news that he was now expendable. When you take all that into consideration, I see no reason why Jay Leno should be expected to think of Conan's career as more important than his own. That's nothing but a huge double standard.
See? Even B.O.T.1880 finally came around. 👍
When he said "Fallon surging" I shuddered a little bit.
Duh it took a while for it to suddenly dawn on me that Jimmy is who ABC replaced Bill with way back when they cancelled Politically Incorrect. I use to love that show, and I was always working late at home for my telecommute job and would make sure to set aside computer tasks that didn’t require intense concentration so I could turn on Bill and his guests and at least hear it in the background. I was so bummed out when ABC cancelled it. I guess it all worked out in the long run for Bill (who actually annoys me sometimes these days but that’s a different story).
I still say, it was up to the executives.
Jaybird was once a Rolls Royce mechanic. Drove to the "Club" in repairs
Maher is really missing the beat to this whole story. It isn't about Leno looking out for Conan but he should have asked to be let out of his contract and find another channel to compete on. It was that simple. Leno knew that all he had to do was make the situation as untenable for Conan as possible and NBC would run back to him. My favorite bit was when Letterman responded by saying "Nobody is blaming Conan!" Check that video out. It still makes me laugh to this day because the simple matter was Leno could not let go and he had to f*ck it up for Conan.
RE: "It isn't about Leno looking out for Conan but he should have asked to be let out of his contract and find another channel to compete on."
But why didn't Conan do that in 2004 when his contract was coming up for renewal? He (like Jay) could've gone to *ABC,* or he could've gone to *FOX* where they were offering him way more money than *NBC* was. But, instead, he chose to take the *NBC* offer that was deciding Jay's retirement date for him, and he was going to have to wait 5 years to get "The Tonight Show." If Conan had accepted one of those other major offers, he would've had his earlier start time, nobody would've had to lose their job to accommodate him, and the entire debacle would've been averted.
@@gallery7596 Conan didn't leave because Leno publicly supported this agreement. He told Conan he accepted this agreement and even announced it on his show. Conan and Leno had options. The problem was that NBC promised too much. They didn't want to lose either. But if Leno felt that he was being screwed he had more leverage than Conan. In the end he made the situation worse with every step. Not leaving. BAD. 10 PM slot BAD. Bad ratings for both shows. Leno played the long game and won. He got what he wanted and basically shafted Conan.
@@williamcoate9491 RE: "[Jay] told Conan he accepted this agreement and even announced it on his show."
Conan's deal was made *before* Jay knew a thing about it. Jeff Zucker simply told Jay that he would be let go at the end of his contract. Also, Zucker asked Jay not to make a Letterman-style stink about it, so Jay graciously accepted what he could not change. What would've been the point (at the time) of telling the world that this was breaking his heart? He still would've had to go, and now Conan would've looked to Jay's audience like a pushy interloper. Jay behaved like a gentleman, and Conan's maneuver to obtain that show was, at best, questionable. Had he sought Jay's blessing before signing on the dotted line, it might've made a huge difference in avoiding all the misunderstandings and rancour that followed. But, he didn't.
RE: "Conan and Leno had options. The problem was that NBC promised too much."
Yes, that's true. They wanted to keep two guys who basically wanted the same thing. It didn't work when it was Jay and Letterman, but for some reason Conan thought it could work this time. *NBC* has a habit of mistreating it's on-air talent. Conan shouldn't have assumed he would be treated any better. But, he did, and we saw what happened. He should've gone to *ABC* or *FOX* when he had the chance.
@@gallery7596 NBC is the real bad guy in this. They played Leno and Conan. Interestingly enough, NBC paid Conan $45 million to go away. What a mess!
@@anthonybiamonte472 Yes, *NBC* president of programming Jeff Zucker was the architect of "The Tonight Show" debacle.
I think Kimmel is looking at it from Conan's point of view and showing empathy towards him, while Maher, clueless and egotistical, is just lost in his own head and not really listening to Kimmel. lol
Yeah, Maher didn't even know about this infamous 5 year agreement within NBC where it was made clear Leno would pass the baton onto Conan and then ride into the sunset. That was the whole idea. Leno deciding not to retire and essentially creating the Tonight Show 2.0 via a loophole totally ratfucked Conan and that's what everyone had a problem with.
I remember Letterman condemning Leno at the time, saying, "Don't just hang around." Like, you agreed to leave, so leave.
@@tylerjhunter Except the ratings dropped when Conan took over, most of you forget its a business
@@MrJimmy3459 Jimmy explains in this clip why that happened.
@@tylerjhunter Bill also conveniently leaves Helen Kushnick out saying Jay didn't have anyone repping him.
Isn't that what Bill usually does?
I want Bill's shirt! ❤
Bill Maher attempting to tell Jimmy Kimmell about the late night talk show happenings is… *chefs kiss*
Thanks Jimmy for spilling the tea! Business can be complicated!
If I heard right, Jay was representing himself. He had no agent. This at least explains his aggressiveness in the business. Anyone in that position has to be tough to survive.
@@robvangessel3766 Jay didn't want another agent after he found out what Helen Kushnick had been up to in order to get him "The Tonight Show." Unfortunately, representing himself didn't save him from Jeff Zucker's ridiculous 5 year host-switcheroo scheme that proved to be so devastating for both Jay and Conan.
@@gallery7596 This is why hate rhetoric from quarters like Howard Stern (at least back then) was over-the-top. I mean like Jay was total vermin.
Bill always does this. If you are his BFF, you cant do anything wrong. He is like this with Leno, Vedder, Sean Penn, Hefner. He defends them like crazy, and will not accept any criticism, because your are wrong automatically and a crybaby according to him.
No one listens to Billo, he has always been a lightweight in my mind.
God, Bill's shirt is so "i'm 83 years old and still hip!"
Jimmy was a great soldier at ABC and glad to see his getting his props!
He is the face of ABC!
I love it, the more stoned Bill gets and has no writers around to bolster his "intellect", he really knows nothing. Even about the industry he is a part of. It's fucking mind blowing how no one else points this out.
This is painful to watch. It’s embarrassing how little Maher understands such a major story that played out in his own industry. Then he can’t or won’t get it when it’s explained to him.
Maher does get it. It's Jimmy who doesn't get it. Leno had zero pull over there. They axed him when he was number 1!!! Imagine if that happened to you
Exactly op 👌👏👏
Did you not tell.that bill was feeling a bit buzzed
He's not too with it here, but back when this debacle was raging Bill presented an excellent defense of Jay's position one night on Larry King's show. I still remember the line *"why is it Jay Leno's job to be concerned with Conan's dream? When Leonardo DiCaprio gets a script does he go 'I'd really like to do this, but Jake Gyllenhaal had his heart set on it. Would I be ruining his dream?"* With regard to Conan he said *"you wanna be on top of the mountain? There's gonna be some others who want to be there, too."*
@@TonyVega123 how can you be number 1 and have no pull? Sounds like he was either too lazy to fight it or thought it was a good idea. He signed the agreement and then never left.
All in all, sounds like a lot of sour grapes going around back then. Jay had to look out for his own interests and at the same time was fair to others involved.
That joint is greatly roled, it smokes consistent and goes out almost immediately.
Two bad business decisions were made. 1. Conan should have left for ABC and took that 11:30 slot and let go of "The Tonight Show" dream. And 2. Jay should have went to ABC and took that 11:30 slot and never have re-took the "The Tonight Show." They were both *clinging* onto "The Tonight Show" which led to the demise of both Jay and Conan. Jay wasn't "diabolical." NBC was. NBC strung along Conan for years and fired Jay twice, effectively destroying both talents so that even if they moved to another network, they would no longer be a threat in ratings to "The Tonight Show."
RE: "Conan should have left for ABC and took that 11:30 slot and let go of "The Tonight Show" dream."
Yes, or taken the offer from *FOX* where they wanted to pay him way more than *NBC* was offering to wait all those years for "The Tonight Show."
RE: "Jay should have went to ABC and took that 11:30 slot..."
Yes. Although Conan would likely have been crushed between the competition of both Dave and Jay...yes, Jay would've been better off going to *ABC* to be, ironically, Jimmy Kimmel's lead-in.
RE: "NBC strung along Conan for years and fired Jay twice, effectively destroying both talents..."
Yes, and they strung Dave along, too by telling him he had the inside track on becoming Carson's successor- not realizing they were telling Jay the same thing. The worst decision Jay Leno ever made was turning down the *CBS* offer for *NBC"s* guarantee he would get Johnny's seat. Dave made the best decision passing on *NBC's* last ditch "Tonight Show" offer and going to *CBS.*
Yeah, I guess I can see your points here and maybe not blame Jay so much as NBC.
Looking back, yeah sure they should/could have, but... thank God they didn't right? Conan eventually moving to TBS was the best thing ever - lots of great remotes were made that wouldn't otherwise be "allowed" at the Tonight Show and his travel series & now his top rated podcast...he even said that it was the best thing that happened to his career. He didn't got his dream but at least really tried. It didn't worked out but there wasn't any regret on his part. I'm not sure with Jay tho 😅
@@kathleenrasing6818 Agree. Conan has been thriving.
Lol Bill made to look so dumb by Jimmy and Jimmy tried to not go into it but Bill screwed the story Jimmy had to correct him 🤣. "I don't remember" "no, no one knew about it but me" I'm flipping dead lol
How stoned are you Bill?? 😂😂😂
I love that Bill sticks up for Jay and Jimmy Conan. That whole thing was a mess, should have never gone down that way. Both are good guys.
Jay is clearly not a good guy. When so many of his peers dislike him him for being a backstabber. We’re talking lettermen , Conan , and kimmel all have issues with him.
@@chrisdranfield3828 I still like him. Their personal issues are there's.
@@chrisdranfield3828 Lettermen's resentment over being *NBC's* second choice to replace Carson is legendary. He's also had feuds with other celebrities like Cher, Madonna, Bryant Gumbel, Sarah Palin, Shirley MacClaine, *OPRAH.* He is not the easiest guy to get along with.
Conan (who acknowledged that Jay had supported him at *NBC)* made a deal with *NBC* that was basically deciding Jay's retirement date for him. But Conan thought it was wrong of Jay to accept an offer from *NBC* for the 10pm show. What kind of a double standard is that? Conan refused to be bumped to midnight when the ratings for both their shows were so bad, but he was fine with bumping George Lopez an hour later over at *TBS.* We know now Lopez had been asked by *TBS* to say he was okay with that move. Conan's pretty naive if he hadn't already suspected that was the case.
Kimmel said Jay didn't call to tell him that their agreed upon deal for Jay to come to *ABC* was off. I think it would've been the polite thing for Jay to have informed him personally. But if that's the worst thing he ever did to Jimmy Kimmel, I don't think it ruined his life. Kimmel's thing is he was a Letterman admirer since adolescence, and I think he also never got over *NBC* deciding Jay was the better fit for "The Tonight Show" than his comedy hero.
@@chrisdranfield3828 You could not be more wrong. One of the nicest guys in Hollywood is Jay. I've heard this from so many industry people it's almost ridiculous. The people who don't like him seem to dislike him for reasons that don't even make sense when you truly analyze them
@@Debby901It’s okay to like him, but he’s still a backstabbing POS.
So clearly and decisively explained by Jimmy here. Conan was never given a fair shot after waiting five years. Leno should have walked.
Conan should've walked instead of taking the *NBC* offer. He saw how the network screwed both Dave and Jay in the past. Why did he think they couldn't do the same thing to him?
Both idea are problematic. In five years, what happens if jay is pulling in numbers or doesn't want to leave? Also I watches Conan most nights back then. He announced multiple time in five years he was getting the spot... Not sure how bill missed that....
If Leno left, he would've gotten 150 million
So what... Conan got like 60 Million for breech of contract and got paid again from TBS. WIN WIN
@@ladiorange RE: "In five years, what happens if jay is pulling in numbers or doesn't want to leave?"
The host switcheroo scheme was forced on Jay by a deal Conan signed with the network. In 2004, *NBC* decided that like it or not (and he did NOT like it) Jay would be leaving in 2009 so they could keep Conan. They just never imagined that 5 years later Jay would still be #1 while Conan was losing ground to Ferguson at 12:35am.
What I love is that first they were thinking of pushing Jimmy back for Conan, then planned on doing so for Jay, and after all the dust had settled, Jimmy ended up getting the 11:30 slot and doing respectable numbers with it. I also love that as someone who was involved in the whole fiasco in a behind-the-scenes capacity, he has very strong reasons for backing Conan in all of this.
Fallon stated he felt Conan and Jay were both mistreated.
@@gallery7596 Fallon was in a trickier position than Kimmel
@@ErisRising I thought you were referring to Fallon since Kimmel's position wasn't affected by what was happening at *NBC.*
@@gallery7596 Sorry, I realized after posting that using only the first name could be confusing, but I was caught up in other things, and forgot to go back and edit. To be clear, I was talking about Kimmel almost being pushed back for Conan when Conan was thinking of leaving if he didn't get the tonight show, then almost being pushed back for Leno when Leno left the tonight show the first time, and then Kimmel doing quite well at 11:30 once they moved him to that slot.
Fallon was in an incredibly difficult place for a while, but he's managed to carve out his own niche on the show.
@@ErisRising Yes, despite all the shots he takes on these message boards, to be into his 9th year as host of "The Tonight Show," Fallon must be doing something right.
Watch the interview with Jay Leno and hear both sides.
I once was a Kimmel fan. Something changed.
I think Conan was awesome in the late late show like Dave had been. His audience was was younger and stayed up later, the bits were edgier, acts were cooler/younger for that crowd. Your parents were the jay leno/Johnny Carson crowd, you were the Conan crowd. When conan moved into jays spot i had the feeling the older crowd just wasn’t gonna get him, that coupled with jays lead in being a bad idea, never really gave conan a chance at nbc. NBC didn’t want jay to go to a competitor where he most likely was gonna draw big numbers from his previous audience.
And *NBC* didn't want Conan to go to a competitor either, which is what prompted them to offer Conan "The Tonight Show" if he'd wait 5 years for it. Just a terrible idea all the way around.
Yep several reasons why Conan's tonight show failed. 1 everyone knew jay wasn't happy with being replaced. So the audience that had been watching jay for 15+ year's wasn't fully supporting Conan , #2 NBC gave Leno 3+ year's to gain his audience back in the early 90's. But only gave Conan a year and half. #3 NBC wouldn't let Conan use most of his longtime bit's like pooping robot , Mr MET , Masturbating bear for they deemed it too edgey for the tonight show.
JK’s mind was poisoned on Leno by Howard Stern….
It's kinda ironic. NBC has all the late night talent back then (Leno, Letterman, Conan), and in an attempt not to lose them made the worse possible decisions.
- "We don't want to lose Letterman's late night ratings, so we'll replace Carson with Leno" - ends up losing Letterman and a chunk of the audience
- "We don't want to lose Leno to ABC, so we'll offer him the 10pm gig", which ends up tanking Conan and they lose Conan.
We see unbridled greed from Bill! 🤬🤬
I can’t believe how Clueless Maher is about his own business!
Yeahh because everyone knows everything about everyone... 🤔
Show Biz is very complex, twisted. The problem few understand tv, film, video, music is all $$$, egos, contracts, schedules, relationships. You may think you just contact a star or actor. You need to deal with agents, managers, lawyers, accountants, ...
He isn’t a tonight show host
@@djalpacalypse3841 RE: "it's because he's friends with Leno so he probably only heard Leno cry about it fir years and giving his side of the story."
Bill Maher when "The Tonight Show" debacle was happening: *"There's no greater way you can show affection for a man than to do his show when you have nothing to promote. But I did Conan's show just to say 'welcome to LA, and I like you.'"* Maher actually had a lot of really intelligent (and funny) observations about that contentious mess when he did "Larry King Live." The problem here is . . . he's baked. It's like watching a totally different person. The guy should never again do a show while stoned.
@@djalpacalypse3841 exactly. I knew Maher would stick up for Leno. Who was INSANELY RICH at the time.
Bill’s like the only person in show biz that stuck up for Leno throughout the whole back and forth with him and Conan. I’m sure the fact Leno was doing Real Time all throughout that was completely unrelated.
I sympathized with Jay more after reading the Bill Carter latenight wars books, even if I never loved his show.
There are some clips of Norm sticking up for Leno too. I'm a big Conan fan, never liked Leno, but also a huge Norm fan, so that shifted my perspective a bit
Haha exactly.
The nicest celebrity I ever met in my life was Jay Leno. I've met a few big stars, but Jay was by far the nicest. He talked to me for almost an hour. After that experience, I've always been a big supporter of his. I think he's super misunderstood
RE: ''Bill’s like the only person in show biz that stuck up for Leno throughout the whole back and forth with him and Conan.''
No, there were a number of high-profile personalities during that mess who saw it Jay's way, too. Oprah, for one, and Howie Mandel told Stern right to his face that his allegations about Jay were way over the top. Check out Howie's recent podcast interview with Jay in which he lays out the whole affair (and much better than baked Bill does here) and why Jay wasn't treated fairly by the media, or by Conan.
Conan is the best!❤
Finally somebody who is sticking up for Jay Leno. He really got a bad wrap from almost every comedian and talk show host. Hollywood can be such highschool.
"Show business is high school with money." ~ attributed to Martin Mull
@@gallery7596 Are you an NPC? All these quotes, lol. Jesus christ you're a wonder. I went from being annoyed with you, to hating you, to sort of being scared of you, to admiring your single-minded focus, to feeling bad for you.
The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. To truly understand how NBC made a mess of the Tonight Show transition multiple times you have to go all the way back to the early 1980's. By then, Johnny Carson had become the tail that wagged the dog at NBC. The network was in total freefall and late night was all it had going for it. Carson took full advantage of this, and when he negotiated the last of his big deals at the network got everything he wanted and then some. He owned the show, he had total say over who followed him at 12:35 (which he also got the show shortened to it's now 1 hour runtime), fewer shows, the appointment of a permanent guest host (which would feed into all of this), and more time off.
Carson had a very complicated relationship with the brass at NBC, and it showed. He hand picked Letterman to follow him after giving Tom Snyder, who Carson didn't particularly care for, the boot from his Tomorrow show. Letterman, like his idol Carson, never really got along with the top execs at NBC. And while Letterman was loved by Johnny, his quirky off handed brand of comedy didn't always land with audiences the way we like to think it did. He's beloved by fellow comedians and constantly citied as a major influence of many of todays top comedy talent - but so was another up and comer in the comedy world - Jay Leno.
When Joan Rivers bolted her permanent guest hosting duties on The Tonight Show (and ruined a decades long friendship with Carson over it) for her own ill-fated late night show on Fox, Jay Leno would eventually be named the new permanent guest host of The Tonight Show. Watch Showtimes docuseries on The Comedy Store for some serious background - Jay Leno at one time was one of the biggest things in standup comedy - someone who just about every comic would stop everything they were doing backstage whenever he got up to do his set.
Yes - Leno had Helen Kuschner - an old-school Hollywood bully right out of central casting - but she got the job done. She saw what many in the business refused to believe - that Carson was in the last few years of a career that was coming up on it's 30th year as host of The Tonight Show. She planted stories in the NY Post about NBC wanting to give Carson the boot, and this caused a tremendous amount of animosity between the Carson camp, and Jay Leno. Did Jay know everything Helen was doing? I don't think he knew everything. But at the end of the day, she was his representation, and he knew she had a killer reputation. He had blood on his hands too.
Fast forward to the presentation of the NBC Fall Schedule for 1991-1992 television season. Leno is there to tell some jokes, and Carson is there unbeknownst to anyone at NBC to announce his retirement at the conclusion of his 30th anniversary as host of The Tonight Show. NBC has nothing prepared and is caught totally off-guard. What no one knew outside of the top GE executive at NBC and NBC's top two executives - Leno has already been given a deal to take over as host of The Tonight Show whenever Carson retires.
On one hand - Carson had every right to be pissed, and no right at all in the same breath. For years he had been dancing back and forth with the idea of retirement and would give NBC no long term commitment as to what the future held. He was also the undisputed King Of Late Night and felt some level of respect was in order, and it probably should have been.
But why didn't NBC care what Johnny thought about his replacement? I think a few things factored into their decision not to confer. Johnny kept them in the dark about his plans moving forward, so both sides were playing the same coy game. Carson obviously had faith in Leno because he had signed off on the decision to make him permanent guest host. But he also gave Dave the same type of seal of approval by keeping him in the 12:35 slot since the early 1980's. With Jay, NBC owned the Tonight Show once again. With Dave - his Worldwide Pants company would want ownership just like Carson Productions had. Jay, aside from Helen, had a solid working relationship with the execs at NBC. Dave was known for sometimes being a little too cute with the network brass and wasn't seen as as much of a team player so to speak. Leno would have no say in who followed him at 12:35, where as Dave, like Johnny, would have final say over the time slot (and eventually did at CBS). And probably fatally for Dave, as outlined brilliantly in The Late Shift by Bill Carter, Dave had no representation and had never actually made a point of asking to be Carson's successor. As many of you have commented - it's a business, and by those standards alone - Leno was the safer bet to succeed Carson.
Early on, Dave beat Jay head to head once Dave made the move to 11:35 at CBS. NBC famously had second thoughts about maybe giving Dave the job. But everything changed when Hugh Grant surprisingly chose NOT to back out of a prescheduled appearance with Jay after getting popped for solicitation. Jay famously started the awkward interview off by addressing the elephant in the room head on with "what the hell were you thinking" and there was no turning back. Jay was #1 head to head, and never lost the late night ratings war again.
Dave brought back Carson not-so-favorite Tom Synder for his follow-up at 12:35, and oddly enough to add even more layers to this, Conan beat Synder his entire three years on the air at CBS. Conan was more of a Letterman comedian than a Leno, and that makes what happened so much more fascinating. There was serious questions about whether or not Conan could hit it with the main stream late night audience that would tune in at 11:35, but not stay up past that. The SAME questions NBC execs had about Letterman when it came to whether or not he should replace Johnny.
This is the part that doesn't get talked about enough - when NBC went to Leno to tell him they wanted to give him five more years and replace him with Conan - his initial reaction was "no" and "why". Conan was making the same power play behind the scenes that Helen had for Jay back in 1991. And just like NBC did in 1991 with Jay, they panicked about when it came to the idea of Conan leaving for another network. The late night landscape had changed a LOT since Carson signed off in May of 1992. NBC no longer had 11:35 all to itself. Before Carson left the air the only late night show that even put a dent in his viewership was Arsenio, and that was only in syndication. Jay was still on top. Jay was not ready to leave. He wasn't really given a choice.
When Leno left, he left Conan with the #1 late show in the country. A few other factors that get missed, and Kimmel hits on one of them here, but it's a sword that cuts both ways. Yes - during the majority of Jay's original run as host, he had a VERY strong primetime lead in. Conan didn't. He had Jay at 10. But all the years that newcomers tried to dethrone Carson, he had NO lead in to speak of for many of those years at NBC. It wasn't until the mid-1980's that NBC struck gold in primetime and changed how networks built their schedules around blocks of similar programming. And there was still the lingering issue of Conan's style.
Nobody compares to Carson, and nobody ever will. Yes, the competition was far less as there were so fewer options for viewing back then. But even with that, he was in a class all his own. Not Leno, not Letterman, or Conan or any of the guys who fill those spots today can even come close. But Leno was more widely liked by your average viewers. Letterman was up against it his entire time at CBS, he was more of an acquired taste - Conan had the same appeal. The fact that can't be disputed is that Jay returned to #1 as soon as he retook The Tonight Show. And I'll ask the question that no one who defends Letterman or Conan ever want to answer: what would they have done in the same situation? The answer, what Jay did. Letterman almost did - when NBC behind the scenes kinda offered him Jay's job. Conan, as some of you have pointed out, did the same thing to George Lopez - took his job. Not sure why that never gets discussed. Dave had one hell of a time at Leno's expense - and quite frankly while a lot of what he said was funny and made for good TV - it was sour grapes. Every comic of prominence wanted The Tonight Show when Carson retired. Only one of them got it. But it was never The Tonight Show like we all grew up knowing it - and it never will be again.
Today The Tonight Show is a shell of it's former self. Fallon has done only slightly better than what Conan brought, and in the eyes of most critics falls a distant third to what Kimmel and Colbert bring to the table.
The saddest cut of all, is that these guys all used to be friends - good friends at that. They all ended up scared by this I think both personally and professionally and late night will never be the same - for better or worse.
Wow, you know a lot about this!
@@mercury_rising Thanks - Late Night has always fascinated me - it’s one of our treasured television institutions.
I've never heard of a top comedian from the generation after Leno citing him as a "major influence". Can you back this up with some hard evidence?
Christopher Bush...your summary and analysis, while probably too lengthy for the TH-cam format, is a worthwhile read. My take-away is that the Late Night Wars was a complex event with no clear-cut bad guys or good guys --- even NBC, the closest thing to the "bad guy" here, could be defended, from a certain perspective, for the way they handled the situation. At first glance, Conan _appears_ to come off as the cleanest player and Jay the dirtiest, but I've always been left with a lingering suspicion that if the whole story were to be revealed, Jay would fare better in the public perception than he did. Your analysis tended to confirm this for me.
Great insight, although I still think that Jay would have been better off moving to another network when Conan took over..
Bill made a mistake doing this episode stoned, because when the "Tonight Show debacle" was in the news, he actually made some sharp observations about the whole affair.
*(From Maher's appearance on Larry King's CNN show in 2010):*
*Larry King:* 'What did you make of the whole Conan vs. Leno affair?"
*Bill Maher:* "I actually made a lot of it. I wanna' start off by saying I like Conan a lot. I did his show when he came out to L.A.; I had nothing to plug, and there's no greater way you can show affection for somebody than to do their show when you don't have anything to promote. But I did it to say 'welcome to L.A. and I like you." Now, I did Jay's show about 10 days ago and I got all these tweets from Conan's fans. These are the people who are so upset that Conan didn't get 'The Tonight Show," and they're saying "why'd you do Jay Leno's show? He sucks! He's this! He's that!" These people need to get a grip. They have no idea how show business works, and it's not all that different from the way life in general works. And this business about Jay Leno being selfish-"
*Larry King:* 'They say he shouldn't have taken 'The Tonight Show' after only 5 months."
*Bill Maher:* "Why? I saw Oprah on her show ask Jay ten different ways 'are you sorry you ruined Conan's dream?' Why is it Jay Leno's job to be concerned with Conan O'Brien's dream? When Leonardo Dicraprio gets a script does he say 'I'd really like to do this, but Jake Gyllenhaal had his heart set on it. Would I be ruining his dream?' I think we've all been in the position where we were offered something that somebody else wanted. Hey, Bob in accounting wanted that job, so should I give it to him?"
"Now, the one place I would criticize Conan- and Dave Letterman for that matter- are these comments 'you can do anything you want in this world, as long as Jay Leno doesn't want to do it, too.' You're not a kid who got his ice cream knocked to the ground by Jay Leno. He beat you for something. And by the way: it's a very desirable job. You wanna be on top of the mountain? There's gonna be some others who wanna be there, too."
He's kinda wrong about the whole thing and keeps forgetting that Jay, on multiple occasions, acted like he was so happy to pass the torch to Conan and that he was done doing the Tonight Show. Only to come back less than a year later and (IMO) maliciously try to either force Conan out of the time slot or leave the network all-together. Its a prime example of a shitty Indian giver situation.
@@Rosstp94 RE: "He's kinda wrong about the whole thing and keeps forgetting that Jay, on multiple occasions, acted like he was so happy to pass the torch to Conan and that he was done doing the Tonight Show."
Yes, Jay did have to "act," but it wasn't his idea. You see, he never imagined that at the relatively young age of 54 (Carson was 65 when he stepped down) and still consistently #1 that *NBC* would decide to drop him because they felt keeping Conan was more important. Such ingratitude by not only the network, but, also Conan, whom Jay had supported during his fledging years as host of "Late Night." But, *NBC* appealed to Jay not to make a Letterman style fuss about it, so he graciously wished Conan well, and now this is what Conan's fans like to point to as Jay actually wanting to retire, and then changing his mind. Anyone who reads Bill Carter's excellent book *"The War Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane"* will see who was really responsible for that host switching scheme. Sure wasn't Jay.
RE: "Only to come back less than a year later and (IMO) maliciously try to [make] leave the network all-together."
That's what Conan's deal with *NBC* was going to do to Jay.
To be honest considering that Leno was going to step out of late night in 2014 he could have just moved to ABC and pushed Kimmel back to 12.30 for 5 years and in 2014 Kimmel takes the 11.30 slot. Conan keeps the Tonight Show. Kimmel ascends to 11.30 in 2014. Lopez keeps the 11.30 slot in TBS. Carson Daly gets the 12.30 slot on ABC. And it all would have been good. Colbert gets Late Night. Seth gets Late Late Show show after Craig leaves. It would have whole.
But instead we have a huge mess cause Jay wanted the Tonight Show and Tonight Show only
RE: "...considering that Leno was going to step out of late night in 2014"
Jay was actually being forcibly retired as a result of Conan's deal with *NBC.*
RE: "...we have a huge mess cause Jay wanted the Tonight Show and Tonight Show only."
If in 2004 Conan had rejected *NBC's* proposal to dump Jay by 2009, and instead just waited until his own contract ran out in January 2006, he could've had a show with an earlier start time at *ABC,* or at *FOX* (where they were offering him almost double what *NBC* wanted to pay him), Jay and his staff could've stayed at "The Tonight Show," nobody would've lost their job to make it happen, and the entire debacle would've been averted. But Conan just had to realize his childhood dream of hosting "The Tonight Show."
@gallery7596
Conan just wanted a Late Night show at the 11.30 slot after 11 years at Late Night at 12.30. I don't think it was specifically the Tonight Show. He was just offered the upgrade by ABC and Fox and NBC said hey we'll give you the 11.30 slot in 5 years. Jay can make it seem like Conan targeted the Tonight Show and tonight show only when it was just he was offered a promotion by different networks and NBC matched.
When NBC offered the 5 year plan Conan stayed out of respect to his decade plus relationship with NBC.
@@kumar01234 RE: "Jay can make it seem like Conan targeted the Tonight Show only when it was just he was offered a promotion by different networks and NBC matched."
But *NBC's* offer was a bad one. Conan didn't have to wait 5 years for a show at 11:35, and getting "The Tonight Show" was at the expense of Jay and his staff. And Jay had been nothing but supportive of Conan for years at *NBC.*
RE: "...Conan stayed out of respect to his decade plus relationship with NBC."
Conan had made it known through his agent that he wanted Jay's job. And in 2004 *NBC* felt they had to offer it to Conan or risk losing him to another network.
Ha! This is the first I heard that Leno was looking at pulling what he pulled on Conan to Jimmy Kimmel.
Leno tried to make it seem like he was so loyal to NBC while he was looking for better pay elsewhere.
Well, since *NBC* told Jay in 2004 that they were going to drop him in 2009, it doesn't seem unfair on his part to have entertained offers from other networks.
It was *NBC* panicking about the idea of Conan going up against an *ABC* show hosted by Jay that caused them to offer Jay 10pm.
I remember being so happy when I heard that Leno was going away. Then he stayed.
Bill was Leno's biggest defender at that time and shredded both Conan and Kimmel over their immaturity. Over time, he's forgotten the facts and he's high. On Real Time, it would have been interesting.
Yes, Maher kinda let Jay down here doing the show stoned.
I am shocked that Billy cannot comprehend having Jay Leno on at 10:00 PM was a bad idea and negatively affected Conan hosting the tonight show.
It turned out to be a bad idea, but they didn't know going in that it would have that effect- or why would the network have come up with it in the first place?
That's Monday morning quarterbacking.
@@gallery7596 Monday morning quarterbacking? WTF dude? My comment was that Billy still does not realize that it affected the the tonight show in a negative way while Conan hosted it.
@@arcnevada545 Sure it was bad for Conan, but in this video Kimmel makes it sound like that was Jay's intention- which is a ludicrous theory. Who would want to be humiliated by such a huge failure that had your name attached to it? Jay might not never again have been hired to do another network project because of that bomb. Anybody reading "The War For Late Night" can see for themselves that the 10pm show's chance for success was impeded by *NBC's* interference.
jimmy looks soooo chill.
I think Jimmy's so ripped, he could safely view an eclipse 🤣
Bill assume too much and when he is wrong he comes off petty.
THIS
Yep, I caught that too. Maher didn't even have his facts straight that even outsiders knew (2:52 "Oh, so he [Conan] did stay five years?"), then downshifts to cheap ad hominem attacks when the facts start mounting (4:15 "...Did he touch you, Jimmy?"). Kimmel is a star witness in the case against Leno. I always liked Kimmel's show, but I really enjoyed seeing how much integrity he has demonstrated even when it didn't benefit him. He stood up for Conan and called out Leno for being a back-stabbing fraud.
@@alexplorer Kimmel has the best perspective of it all since he observe whats going on while its going on. the fact Kimmel gave his opinion. Then you know how shitty the whole mess is.
Smarmy!
@@alexplorer How did Leno backstab the man who have an ultimatum that Leno be fired or he’d leave?! You people are ridiculous
I never thought of that about Jay taking the 10:00 pm spot to spoil Conans lead in.
Kimmel's theory is full of holes. Intentionally hosting a bomb could've meant the end of Jay's network career, too. Why would he risk that?
Plus, if it was so obvious that it would fail, why would *NBC* have gone ahead with the show in the first place? Talk about financial suicide.
Kimmel just hangs out with Howard Stern too much.
What if I told you that this person you're engaging with (@Gallery) is actually a notorious tr011? Just search "Leno vs Conan" and click the first 5 videos that come up on TH-cam. I will bet my salary that you'll find @Gallery's anti-Conan comments under ALL of those videos. This person has no life to live, so they spend all their time hating on conan online. I was able to trace @Gallery's comment history back to 9 years. He has been doing this for 9 years. THe same old talking points that defend Leno and demonize conan, the same old lies. Relentless. I've noticed this sick person's comments on like 12 videos so far.
Kimmel's stunt on Jay's show makes a lot more sense, now. He knew the dynamics of the situation so well that it was almost personal for him.
Kimmel, I think, was influenced more by the open resentment of his comedy hero, Dave Letterman toward Jay. I don't think Dave, or Jimmy, ever got over *NBC* picking Jay to replace Carson.
What if I told you that this person you're engaging with (@Gallery) is actually a notorious tr011? Just search "Leno vs Conan" and click the first 5 videos that come up on TH-cam. I will bet my salary that you'll find @Gallery's anti-Conan comments under ALL of those videos. This person has no life to live, so they spend all their time hating on conan online. I was able to trace @Gallery's comment history back to 9 years. He has been doing this for 9 years. THe same old talking points that defend Leno and demonize conan, the same old lies. Relentless. I've noticed this sick person's comments on like 12 videos so far.
And he has called all Team Coco fans "chickens" too, so don't fall for his polite act. He is a tr011 through and through. Just thought you should know who you're talking to. 9 years, dude. 9 years and you're just his latest target.
At the end of the day, Conan walked away with millions of 💸 💰 and landed a great show over at TBS. Jay left shortly and Conan dominated. Everyone wins.
Jay left 4 years later, and still #1 in the ratings. He has two shows currently running, too. So, yeah, everybody did win.
Conan had horrible ratings on TBS.
@@scmsean Yes, I think TBS cutting Conan to half an hour was probably an indication that his show wasn't as profitable as it used to be.
More like everyone lost. Conan is a podcaster, ffs.
4:26 Kimmel admits that Leno and he are on good terms now - they made peace when Leno showed genuine concern about Kimmel's son in 2017. So at this point, any "feuds" are purely discussed for cheap publicity.
Yes, I think Jimmy is trying to have it both ways saying the feud's over (and to Marc Marron he said "I'd be a jerk to keep hating Jay"), and then hypothesizes that Jay may have accepted the 10pm show thinking it would bomb so could get "The Tonight Show" back from Conan. Pretty farfetched theory, too. I think Jimmy might be hanging out with Stern too much.
Who tf stays up that late to watch all these late night shows? Thats the real question
One of these men is coherent, succinct, engaging and likable… the other one is Bill Maher.
Poor Jimmy, you can tell he didn’t really want to talk about this and now it shows up on youtube as the main clip for this great podcast.
It’s nice seeing him be normal and stoned, not goofy and sober like on his so so show.
Yeah it's good when he's real like this and not spreading fake, NWO big corporate hollyweird woke libtard propaganda like he does on his terrible show.
For me I like Jimmy Kimmel the best of anyone on late night, I just think his humor is more creative and varied, but it's good to see this side of him.
I love Jimmy Kimmel and it's funny as hell to see him stoned. I think his voice went down an octive. Great show, Great guest.
@@conorkennedy3304 He seemed way more mature here than he ever does on his show. I think he could act more matuire o0n his show and still be funny- I think it would actually help his shows. He also seemed a lot smarter here than he generally does on his show, where he often seems somewhat awkward, and he seemed way more together here.
@@MisterMooster Agreed. If he acted this way calm and relaxed I would watch his show. Now, he's a MSM buffoon.