Let me point you in the direction of melee, a game that has “stupid shit like this” happen all the time and is still alive 23 years after it was made because of it
Try playing cm. It's a custom stagelist and set of spirits that has it's own competitive ruleset and community. And yeah, the entire cast becomes busted. Fun as hell, and overall, balance actually too terrible once you account the new ruleset.
Fun fact: VKG was introduced in Brawl, meaning that contrary to popular belief, Melee's combo heavy game is mainly thanks to the lack of it, and not to its hitstun duration, which is actually the same as Brawl onward, if we ignore the fact hitstun cancelling exists.
This is inaccurate, VKG was introduced in Ultimate. What Brawl introduced was a multiplier for vertical knockback that increased it in accordance with the character's gravity, with high gravity characters taking more KB to try and compensate. They do similar things, but are two different systems.
@@jhozan You are right, my mistake. Additionally (and I just learned that from SmashWiki), both of these mechanics do not apply to moves that ignore the weight stat, most notably Cloud's Finishing Touch, because of course they don't, thanks Sakurai.
That is part of it, but it's not the entire story. Gravity values are also significantly lower on average post-Melee (unless you're Roy, who has had 0.114 gravity in every game he's existed in, or Sheik, whose gravity has been getting higher and higher with every appearance), so even for more horizontal hits, most characters will get a good bit more airtime than they would in Melee.
Oh well I guess this answers my question I should have read first before asking lol. This is what I was thinking tho it really does look like melee when he turns off VKG in the video
Excluding Giga Bowser, Fox has the highest gravity value in *all five games* in the series, so it seems like his high gravity is considered an integral and perhaps even non-negotiable part of his design.
Man, the editing and script are right up my alley. Love how we have this channel and now Brawlternative to cover niche Smash mechanics and competitive trivia like AsumSaus has done with melee for years. Keep it up
The real forgotten stat that also matters when it comes to mobility, combo routes, multi-hits connecting, and survival is "air friction". It matters more than you would think.
I love silly videos like this about less discussed mechanics, makes you really appreciate what makes these characters so different apart from moves (Also I dig the Petscop Music)
in melee gravity and fall speed actually do affect vertical knockback, so a lightweight like fox who was meant to die early would end up surviving vertical kill moves later than he was meant to
In NTSC Melee (and possibly even PAL Melee, where Fox's weight was reduced), Fox has more vertical survivability than Samus, the third heaviest character in the game.
fun fact that idk if you know, gravity is extra important in melee, since it still gets applied during hitstun regardless of angle, meaning fox is harder to kill off the top than samus, despite having a much lower weight than her
0:57 I can't see that clip of Gibby falling without thinking about the fact that that was an unprotected fall. The stuntman who did that broke his ribs doing so. Jesus Christ.
This is actually a rumor! The guy who did it was a professional stuntman and both he and the floor were properly padded up. You can actually see the padding under his shirt if you look closely at the fall.
@gregvs.theworld451 Dolls are generally only used when doing it for real would be like actually super dangerous. A small fall like that is nearly a free lay day
Bro had peak editing in his last two videos, and is still cooking now. Great job FTP, can't wait for your sub count to explode, you've definitely earned it.
I don't even play SSBU (or any smash) but I watched through one of your videos because of the incredible quality, then I watched another, and now ALL YOUR VIDEOS and A BUNCH MORE SSBU VIDEOS are ALL OVER MY RECOMMENDATIONS
DUde you are absolutely gonna skyrocket in popularity with your videos. i love the way you edit everything is perfectly visually synced this is TOP TOP tier quality stuff seriousyl
If anyone wants to try out ult but where most chars get fox-like gravity, play cactus melee. It's a stagelist and spirit set that is meant to come bridge the gap and bring ult closer to melee w/out mods. Speaking of, the extended tilts (dash, turnaround, forward tilt) you can do in regular ult actually gain a whole new set of properties based on how much slide is given, with some sliding w/out that input some sliding w/ that input, and others not sliding even w/ that input, and that applies to all grounded options. We call them RSDs, Looking over those could be a good idea for a vid.
Wait, not watched the video yet, but is this about gravity? Because I’ve played these games for 11 years and only learned the “gravity” variable existed today, a couple hours ago EDIT: man that’s a wild coincidence. I even learned about Pichu’s fast fall earlier today too lol
@@kvithink6726 The wiki! I went down a bit of a rabbithole after I happened to see a PM Sonic do an unfamiliar pose in a 4 year old GRsmash compilation
My god After 5 years of intense smash bros I thought I knew everything, especially when you see the "fun fact" or "hidden secrets" videos on TH-cam, and you already know what's coming... But you just enlightened my day man :)👍
In Melee, VKG didn’t exist. This leads to Fox (and other lightweight Fast-Fallers) surviving vertical KB WAY longer than they should. He’s harder to kill off the top than Samus (3rd heaviest character)!
Note that there is one other scenario when characters' gravity values are changed: during weight-independent knockback, the character's fall speed and gravity are set to 1.5 and 0.087 for the first 10 frames of launch before reverting to their original values; it also overrides what you call VKG. This can lead to slightly funky launch trajectories on high-hitstun moves like Falcon nair 1, Joker fair 1, or Roy nair 2 and can cause many characters to fall out of Ike's up b after hit 1.
Hey folks, thanks for watching! Reminder that I've got a Ko-fi page up now for anyone who wants to support me: ko-fi.com/firethepyro $3 tier gains access to post-video writeups, $10 tiers are featured at the end of the video (for this month, I decided to credit all early adopters). I appreciate all the support I've gotten over the last few months. More stuff to come :)
Honestly one of my new favorite channels and it's not even close. Love the editing, great commentary, reminds me a lot of AsumSaus--and that's high praise.
6:35 I'd love this, anything that keeps the opponent closer while being in hitstun is good for creative combos. To deter single move spam, I'd add something like knockback scaling (not knockback growth) to weak moves so that every time they are used, they send the opponent a bit further away, I don't think that move staling is a good enough system by itself.
The sheer power some characters get with only a frame or two added or removed in the right place is comical, you never realise how close you are to the horrors until you go looking.
Another interesting stat I like looking at is air friction, most notable with characters like Dr Mario and Mega Man (high friction) or Marth/Lucina and Ryu/Ken (low friction). Ryu and Ken in particular are interesting because their air friction stat is variable, with it being 0 if they jump and 0.015 otherwise. Ah, I just love talking about numbers!
Seeing how fast fox is in this game makes me happy because of how similar of a fighter he’s stayed since melee despite complete meta changes and movement options being removed over the years.
also I wanna add more to the statement about vertical knockback gravity, the reason it exists is due to melee, specifically the spacies due to living vertical hits super well due to said gravity and fall speed they had, its really neat and I love this topic, ever since brawl
Second video I’ve watched from you, total coincidence. So instead of just coincidentally watching you I’ll make sure it’s on purpose, you’ve earned my sub.
Great video. It goes to show how deep this game and this series goes and all of the stuff that often goes overlooked. For VKG in particular, it reminded me a lot of some of the other games. Without VKG, it reminded me a lot of Project M, where characters being fastfallers would make them take considerably longer to kill vertically even if they were a lot lighter. On a visual level, too, having a really low VKG looks a lot like Brawl to me in the way the character is launched.
This is the kind of thing that shows how well made the game is. It is something that is not taken into account, but we see how the experience improves incredibly, I am very surprised.
"Physically Accurate Smash Bros.": •Relativity (Momentom). •Universal constant for gravity stat and perhaps other things. •Minimalist intangibility (not to make dodges and other things short but instead reduce use cases such as get-ups. This may require increasing the speed of get-ups and techs, and a get-up jump might be nice). •Unnecessarily accurate hitboxes and launch directions. Any other Ideas?
It's funny how I never got any resemblance of joy whenever I played smash and other platform fighter, but the content creator for these games are so great I can't help but always watch them
Dude your videos are cool. Also as a side note I wonder if this VKG thing is in melee? I assume not because in that game it feels like fall speed/gravity is way, way more impactful in combos, in fact in melee you can’t even latter combo most fast fallers because of how quickly they get back down. And looking at how some of the characters behaved with VKG turned off it reminds me of how they act in melee, an even more close compression would be HDR remix (the mod that makes ult more like melee). I wouldn’t be supersized if VKG was a measure taken by Nintendo to counteract combos like Marth chain grab or sheiks never ending f tilt combos in brawl.
Ohh, that explains so much. I've mained Fox since day 1 but I could never figure out why I've always loved him so much. He just felt much better to control than anyone else - and, well, I guess he objectively is, in a sense. Considering how I also really like Brawler and Sheik...lmao
7:03 NOoo waaaayyy Fox is so broken!!!¡! Fr tho, great video! I never really given much thought to Gravity, and I didn't even know about VKG. Learn something new everyday lmao
![[SSBU] Jumping is Overpowered](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BmcpWL4FEp8/mqdefault.jpg)
![[SSBU] Jumping is Overpowered](/img/tr.png)
![[SSBU] Smash's Worst Counter](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wfnEG2FvbZg/mqdefault.jpg)
8:34 -can't jump
-goes off the platform
-starts floating
-refuses to elaborate
I think that was negative gravity
@@redple1163 that... Would make sense
"Sh*t, I'm down."
'ascends to heaven'
"MY PEOPLE NEED MEEEEEEEEEEE"
“Do you believe in gravity?”
6:34 "could allow for stupid shit like this"
*shows coolest thing ever*
Leaked Project M mod for Ultimate (no fake)
See how cool you think it is after getting hit by that for the 20th time in a night. Lol
that's a smash 64 combo
melee type of combo
Let me point you in the direction of melee, a game that has “stupid shit like this” happen all the time and is still alive 23 years after it was made because of it
The number of characters who would be so freaking insane if they could spam landing bair with their back airs the way fox can is off the charts.
Vars sighting in the wild? I am a big ceiling fan, carry on.
Imagine Donkey or any sword character. Instant best character in the game
ok now give it to Piranha Plant
Try playing cm. It's a custom stagelist and set of spirits that has it's own competitive ruleset and community. And yeah, the entire cast becomes busted. Fun as hell, and overall, balance actually too terrible once you account the new ruleset.
@@tumultoustortelliniWhat is "cm"? I'm trying to find the spirits and rules online.
Back to back Brawlternative and FireThePyro uploads I'm gonna cry we're eating so good
I’m glad to see not one, but TWO smash TH-camrs on the rise putting out such good content
And Hunter R., but that’s animal crossing.
Now who’s gonna be the Smash 64 & Smash 4 TH-camr?
Literally exactly what I was thinking
@@HammySigvard I miss MySmashCorner...
This was an insanely well-produced and well-edited video.
bigfoot spotted
@@KingKalashnikov hiiiiii Kalashnikov 😳
Always a treat to see you in the comments
3:18 love how Bassmage's tag in this clip is "calm." and the gameplay is anything but calm
Fun fact: VKG was introduced in Brawl, meaning that contrary to popular belief, Melee's combo heavy game is mainly thanks to the lack of it, and not to its hitstun duration, which is actually the same as Brawl onward, if we ignore the fact hitstun cancelling exists.
This is inaccurate, VKG was introduced in Ultimate. What Brawl introduced was a multiplier for vertical knockback that increased it in accordance with the character's gravity, with high gravity characters taking more KB to try and compensate. They do similar things, but are two different systems.
@@jhozan You are right, my mistake. Additionally (and I just learned that from SmashWiki), both of these mechanics do not apply to moves that ignore the weight stat, most notably Cloud's Finishing Touch, because of course they don't, thanks Sakurai.
That is part of it, but it's not the entire story. Gravity values are also significantly lower on average post-Melee (unless you're Roy, who has had 0.114 gravity in every game he's existed in, or Sheik, whose gravity has been getting higher and higher with every appearance), so even for more horizontal hits, most characters will get a good bit more airtime than they would in Melee.
Oh well I guess this answers my question I should have read first before asking lol. This is what I was thinking tho it really does look like melee when he turns off VKG in the video
Excluding Giga Bowser, Fox has the highest gravity value in *all five games* in the series, so it seems like his high gravity is considered an integral and perhaps even non-negotiable part of his design.
his gravity isn't an integral. it's a *derivative* ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
1:44
I never noticed how ANGRY Fox looks in that animation. He's absolutely done with the opponent
0:58 missed the tech window 😔
6:36 actually the most based combo of all time
Man, the editing and script are right up my alley. Love how we have this channel and now Brawlternative to cover niche Smash mechanics and competitive trivia like AsumSaus has done with melee for years. Keep it up
8:35 actually, I think you're up, sir.
The real forgotten stat that also matters when it comes to mobility, combo routes, multi-hits connecting, and survival is "air friction". It matters more than you would think.
Aw, but my Physics prof told me to assume energy loss due to air resistance was negligible...
I love silly videos like this about less discussed mechanics, makes you really appreciate what makes these characters so different apart from moves
(Also I dig the Petscop Music)
"sh*t I'm down"
nope, you're up
in melee gravity and fall speed actually do affect vertical knockback, so a lightweight like fox who was meant to die early would end up surviving vertical kill moves later than he was meant to
In NTSC Melee (and possibly even PAL Melee, where Fox's weight was reduced), Fox has more vertical survivability than Samus, the third heaviest character in the game.
Mii brawler becoming 1.0 chrom was a nightmare we did NOT need.
fun fact that idk if you know, gravity is extra important in melee, since it still gets applied during hitstun regardless of angle, meaning fox is harder to kill off the top than samus, despite having a much lower weight than her
Noteably, the verticle gravity thing is a huge part of why combos are so insane in melee.
0:57 I can't see that clip of Gibby falling without thinking about the fact that that was an unprotected fall. The stuntman who did that broke his ribs doing so. Jesus Christ.
Did he get a good paycheck?
Fuck we assumed that was like, a doll not an actual living human wtf
This is actually a rumor! The guy who did it was a professional stuntman and both he and the floor were properly padded up. You can actually see the padding under his shirt if you look closely at the fall.
@@kipper1668 WHY WOULDN'T THEY JUST THROW A DOLL?!?
@gregvs.theworld451 Dolls are generally only used when doing it for real would be like actually super dangerous. A small fall like that is nearly a free lay day
From what I can tell, negative values give you the fastest teabags. It's an Elite Smash player's wet dream.
Oh my god. You finally found the difference between daisy and peach...
Modified to illustrate their point, I’m pretty sure in the base game its the same
Wake up new FireThePyro upload
Bro had peak editing in his last two videos, and is still cooking now. Great job FTP, can't wait for your sub count to explode, you've definitely earned it.
I don't even play SSBU (or any smash) but I watched through one of your videos because of the incredible quality, then I watched another, and now ALL YOUR VIDEOS and A BUNCH MORE SSBU VIDEOS are ALL OVER MY RECOMMENDATIONS
One of the highest quality smash channels. Nice to see that it's active
DUde you are absolutely gonna skyrocket in popularity with your videos. i love the way you edit everything is perfectly visually synced this is TOP TOP tier quality stuff seriousyl
"Bass it hasn't even been 15 seconds yet" had me laughing lol
5:36 Okay but that would make a GREAT special move! Like Mii Brawler's helicopter kick but it doesn't put you in free fall... That would be sick!
Don't worry.
I'm a time traveler so I'm going to go back in time and prevent Newton from inventing gravity, and then all will be right with the world
If anyone wants to try out ult but where most chars get fox-like gravity, play cactus melee. It's a stagelist and spirit set that is meant to come bridge the gap and bring ult closer to melee w/out mods. Speaking of, the extended tilts (dash, turnaround, forward tilt) you can do in regular ult actually gain a whole new set of properties based on how much slide is given, with some sliding w/out that input some sliding w/ that input, and others not sliding even w/ that input, and that applies to all grounded options. We call them RSDs, Looking over those could be a good idea for a vid.
Incredible editing and pacing. Insane how much your sfx replacement on tournament VODs makes it sound coherent to the video.
Wait, not watched the video yet, but is this about gravity? Because I’ve played these games for 11 years and only learned the “gravity” variable existed today, a couple hours ago
EDIT: man that’s a wild coincidence. I even learned about Pichu’s fast fall earlier today too lol
"do you believe in gravity?"
@@deringjosuegarcia1531i only believe in toasters 😤
Yoo just curious, where did you learn about gravity because I've never heard of it until now
yappayappa
@@kvithink6726 The wiki! I went down a bit of a rabbithole after I happened to see a PM Sonic do an unfamiliar pose in a 4 year old GRsmash compilation
8:27
"You can't bring ballons into the car!"
"Aw, it's too late. We're flying way."
I’m loving this new wave of obscure smash tech and info
1:00 the petscop ost jumpscare
Stupid sexy gravity.
Really love your editing style and the balance between being funny and informative, while still being short.
Spreading the good word of the all-important gravity stat I see :)
Definitely the most vital stat for gamefeel on any given character.
This channel is absolutely amazing!
I really hope you get popular, because the content is top quality, and really genuine.
Adding the game sounds in for the tourney clips must’ve been a lot of work but it really added to the video! Good shit
1 minute in and I already love the editing. Especially when you layer the sounds the attacks make over the tournament sets
My god
After 5 years of intense smash bros I thought I knew everything, especially when you see the "fun fact" or "hidden secrets" videos on TH-cam, and you already know what's coming...
But you just enlightened my day man :)👍
Dog your videos in this format are amazing please keep it up!
Your videos are absolutely amazing: these are so fun, well made, and enjoyable to watch. I hope you keep doing them!
This is one of the most interesting facts about smash mechanics ever
5:19 Lightweight, High Jump Spirits Equipped! Perform 0% to Death on Donkey Kong now!
In Melee, VKG didn’t exist. This leads to Fox (and other lightweight Fast-Fallers) surviving vertical KB WAY longer than they should. He’s harder to kill off the top than Samus (3rd heaviest character)!
This was a really interesting breakdown! I love seeing the interesting and intricate mechanics in games and what effects they have.
how much did I understood 📉
how much I enjoyed the vid 📈
Note that there is one other scenario when characters' gravity values are changed: during weight-independent knockback, the character's fall speed and gravity are set to 1.5 and 0.087 for the first 10 frames of launch before reverting to their original values; it also overrides what you call VKG. This can lead to slightly funky launch trajectories on high-hitstun moves like Falcon nair 1, Joker fair 1, or Roy nair 2 and can cause many characters to fall out of Ike's up b after hit 1.
1:34 my whole life was a lie peach and daisy are actually different
appreciate you making and sharing this detailed exploration, king 👑
Hey folks, thanks for watching! Reminder that I've got a Ko-fi page up now for anyone who wants to support me:
ko-fi.com/firethepyro
$3 tier gains access to post-video writeups, $10 tiers are featured at the end of the video (for this month, I decided to credit all early adopters).
I appreciate all the support I've gotten over the last few months. More stuff to come :)
greninja
greninja
greninja
greninja
I dunno why people are saying this, but
greninja
(8:34) “pffft! Screw gravity”
* flute whistle *
Honestly one of my new favorite channels and it's not even close. Love the editing, great commentary, reminds me a lot of AsumSaus--and that's high praise.
8:34 *insert DuckTales Moon theme*
FireThePyro, This is fantastic! I subscribed because I love it!
insane quality and editing damn bro it’s phenomenal O_O
6:35 I'd love this, anything that keeps the opponent closer while being in hitstun is good for creative combos. To deter single move spam, I'd add something like knockback scaling (not knockback growth) to weak moves so that every time they are used, they send the opponent a bit further away, I don't think that move staling is a good enough system by itself.
GRAHHHHHHH NEW FIRETHEPYRO CONTENT 🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
The sheer power some characters get with only a frame or two added or removed in the right place is comical, you never realise how close you are to the horrors until you go looking.
you have started a fire with this editing style its so good
dude your editing is genuinely amazing great video
Great video! I love how you played around with the stats too, I've always wanted to mess with that aspect of the game.
Another interesting stat I like looking at is air friction, most notable with characters like Dr Mario and Mega Man (high friction) or Marth/Lucina and Ryu/Ken (low friction). Ryu and Ken in particular are interesting because their air friction stat is variable, with it being 0 if they jump and 0.015 otherwise. Ah, I just love talking about numbers!
new yapper just entered my reccomended
I love enabling strong gravity in special smash. It’s something so ignored but it changes the game so much.
Seeing how fast fox is in this game makes me happy because of how similar of a fighter he’s stayed since melee despite complete meta changes and movement options being removed over the years.
also I wanna add more to the statement about vertical knockback gravity, the reason it exists is due to melee, specifically the spacies due to living vertical hits super well due to said gravity and fall speed they had, its really neat and I love this topic, ever since brawl
big man is my new favorite smashtuber, thank you for joining the scene, your videos are insanely good 🙏🙏🙏
i have your channel bookmarked lol
ULTIMATE Asum Saus and I'm all for it
Just subscribed after seeing this and the Mii Brawler videos! Love your production style and the info! Great work!!!
Loooove actually modding in the changes and seeing them in action! Also, I always appreciate Petscop music!
Your editing is great. If it doesn’t burn you out keep it up. It’s really engaging.
4:31 my video started loading for like 2 minutes and I genuinely thought he was waiting for me to check the video to say something
Oh yeah Gravity. I learned about that when browsing the smash wiki.
Second video I’ve watched from you, total coincidence. So instead of just coincidentally watching you I’ll make sure it’s on purpose, you’ve earned my sub.
Goes from random videos, to posting masterclass content like this.
5:36 imagine playing neutral against this aerial
Great video. It goes to show how deep this game and this series goes and all of the stuff that often goes overlooked. For VKG in particular, it reminded me a lot of some of the other games. Without VKG, it reminded me a lot of Project M, where characters being fastfallers would make them take considerably longer to kill vertically even if they were a lot lighter. On a visual level, too, having a really low VKG looks a lot like Brawl to me in the way the character is launched.
I'd love no VKG in Ult, it would make it feel more like Melee and add more skill expression to combos.
This is the kind of thing that shows how well made the game is. It is something that is not taken into account, but we see how the experience improves incredibly, I am very surprised.
"Physically Accurate Smash Bros.":
•Relativity (Momentom).
•Universal constant for gravity stat and perhaps other things.
•Minimalist intangibility (not to make dodges and other things short but instead reduce use cases such as get-ups. This may require increasing the speed of get-ups and techs, and a get-up jump might be nice).
•Unnecessarily accurate hitboxes and launch directions.
Any other Ideas?
May i present you: 7:02
The HeliFoxter
It's funny how I never got any resemblance of joy whenever I played smash and other platform fighter, but the content creator for these games are so great I can't help but always watch them
I hear gravity, neuron activation.
I knew of gravity, but never understood its full implications. Your video clears this up. ITs a good video. Thank you.
Dude your videos are cool. Also as a side note I wonder if this VKG thing is in melee? I assume not because in that game it feels like fall speed/gravity is way, way more impactful in combos, in fact in melee you can’t even latter combo most fast fallers because of how quickly they get back down. And looking at how some of the characters behaved with VKG turned off it reminds me of how they act in melee, an even more close compression would be HDR remix (the mod that makes ult more like melee). I wouldn’t be supersized if VKG was a measure taken by Nintendo to counteract combos like Marth chain grab or sheiks never ending f tilt combos in brawl.
I wonder what would happen if you gave kirby jiggly puffs air speed and mobility
The antigravity joke at the end reminds me of that one gag from asdf movie.
I am loving the snappy editing.
Screw gravity (insert ducktails space song)
NEW UPLOAD
THE GOAT IS BACK
Ohhhh the thumbnail is an apple falling on greninja's head! GRAVITY! ISAAC NEWTON OHHHHH I GET IT
Ohh, that explains so much. I've mained Fox since day 1 but I could never figure out why I've always loved him so much. He just felt much better to control than anyone else - and, well, I guess he objectively is, in a sense. Considering how I also really like Brawler and Sheik...lmao
8:09
i see what you did there /pos
7:03 NOoo waaaayyy Fox is so broken!!!¡!
Fr tho, great video! I never really given much thought to Gravity, and I didn't even know about VKG. Learn something new everyday lmao
This channel's editing is unironically rivaling WhyDo's and that's mad impressive
Oh baby a new analysis video on a game I don't play. Time to watch this every other day for the next month.