For the last 50 seconds, I feel like Snow was using fire ball as less of a poking tool, but rather just a tool to annoy Sonix and maybe to get some chip damage to extend his lead. While Sonix was able to call out some of these jumps, Snow did a good job of realizing that Sonix's chip damage from catching these jumps won't matter too much, especially since Mario can't get gimped easily with how powerful his air drift and up b are, and considering that Mario's damage output is much better, which paid off in the end. Finally, I think it was a bit of a mistake for Snow to try extending his advantage state after that up air combo because you can see that although Snow got back into center stage, there was a chance that Sonix could've landed an up air leading to his own advantage state, and potentially evening up the game if Snow gets unlucky. I also think that in the last 15 seconds, Snow could've been a bit safer and not really tried to call out Sonix's movement because there were a few situations where if Sonix got the whiff punish, he would've gotten some damage; maybe not enough to get Snow at a higher percent than him, but could've led to a disaster if Sonix tried to cheese Snow and was successful.
@@tomfoolery2885 I love these observations! I agree with them. I also think Snow should've played it safer in the last 15 seconds considering his lead and how risky it was, but thankfully it still payed off. Thank you for taking the time to make your comment!
This video is so much better than your old one! We got your voice now. You explain both players plans and tools in the match up and you pinned points on what you thinked makes the winner, win! Good video
To think that the first tournament for the game, held before official release, ended with a battle between Mario & Sonic. And now we see much the same happening at Supernova, with the best player for each character. Funny how history can sorta repeat itself.
@@tiposauce6417 yes, but I opted to put 'a Mario' instead of Snow due to him not being as well known in NA. He's also had a somewhat recent spike in performances too. I never meant to downplay Snow by not having his name on the title
@@SmaxSSB ah ok I feel like it’s not uncommon for people in NA to recognize snow given his recent appearances at our majors but sorry for making a mean reply over it which I put 2 seconds of thought into. Nice video btw
Snow said his favorite Na player to fight was Sonix I found his answer interesting because it showed me that player has a strong mentality and he does not mind playing against sonic at all it seems to me he had the mindset of it is what it is because it seems playing against people like Raru has made him used to cheese. Plus it shows me that he believes that his character does well against sonic in general.
To further add onto to this, I've seen his Mario Matchup Chart from 2 years ago, and even though it's old, Sonic was in the (Roughly translated) +0.5 tier, meaning he thinks Mario outright beats Sonic, if just slightly.
Them last 50 seconds had some of the best platform play ever. Hiding under them, fireballs, on last second went over play instead of under as a mix up… YAH BABY!😊
I disagree Mario is rushdown, he's more of a bait and punish character as well. To be a true rushdown you need good ground speed and burst options. Especially in this matchup hes forcing sonix to approach him not the other way around, fireball being used to force sonix to scrap up close and use his normals
I like how you broke down the uses for fireball and nair here, already knew them but its nice seeing them put into different words. That being said: WTF DAIR CAN DO IT TOO??? MARIO IS BROKEN!!!
good video, always enjoy good breakdowns. if i could offer a little criticism, i don't think that there needs to be so many slow-mo scenes, it felt like half the video was just talking about fireball. i think there's also more you can talk about wrt the set such as how snow was willing to play for time when he got a lead.
I can never root for sonic, i just really dont like the gameplan, and especially timeouts. Even the mario winning with a timeout felt unsatisfying but timeouts are just too common with sonic.
He was, but now he isn't due to a mix of not going to much and underperforming when he does. Snows gotten a lot of top level wins and while he hasn't won anything big yet he's come rlly close. He beat acola for instance
@@jx3jsquad671its not really that obvious, imagine ganondorf not having access to uptilt and warlock punch. Thats 2 moves but he rarely uses them anyway.
@LuigiStar31 Toxic ✅️ Can't take a loss✅️ Camper✅️ Unfuh to play against according to nearly everyone✅️ Litteraly all he has to do is play Sonic like a rush down (something the character is very good at) and people would like him
@@GooseBibleTunes We all have opinions and I respect that, but calling a player "toxic" and not being able to take a loss is a bit outta hand. I've watched alot of sonix (and enjoy it!) and he never shows any toxic traits? Its wild that you say that players say he's unfun to play against. Maybe annoying but i dont think its straight up unfun. Im pretty sure he plays with Spar0 frequently and is rivals with Tweek too. Calling him a camper is pretty spot on in certain scenarios. People just need to learn that you can just run in and rush down effectively and consistently with sonic. He can play aggressive and pressure opponents but sometimes its not worth the risk, especially if the opponent wants you to approach. I'm not saying you have to like him, just don't say such mean things about a really good player.
Im sorry but sonic is a very honest character. People are saying hes cheesey but he doesnt have any consistent ways to cheese stocks. Professional play is just about the information advantage and the reward for capitalizing on the said info. Sonic gets a very honest moderate reward, but his ability to pick up info comes at pretty much no risk to himself IF U MAKE THE MISTAKE of getting impatient and using unsafe moves without a read. But think about how many characters have projectiles (you need to be able to take space off of them so they need to be a little slow and not too laggy. Or they can do tons of damage on their own) or item set ups that can pressure sonic at his effective range. Im thinking wolf, pikachu, snake, pacman, rob, steve, just to name a few with good advantage and kits in general. You basically flip the situation to have the superior neutral game at both long and short range. Which forces the sonic to start worrying about spacing himself carefully at a specific midrange that, depending on your characters ground speed and range, could be very difficult to maintain (where perrying a projectile could lead to a punish) before sonic just loses to probability. The other thing u want if u can have it is a safe, RISING aerial; something that stays active until you are actionable again. (Although this only even out the neutral game when u jump. Gravity prevents you from staying airborn the whole game.) You need to be able to throw it out early in case sonic jumps into you, but throwing out an unsafe attack early means you are giving away information that can actually get punished later in the set. Having one of these air options is reallly good for stage control. You can jump out of the corner all day and it doesnt matter if sonic has the read on it. Successfully landing one of these could knock sonic to the edge of the map, where the neutral game is favorable for you or even at worst. Just using these moves properly drops sonic down the tier list imo. Its not like were dealing with fine margins either, like playing the matchup doesnt require you to exploit any specific interaction or DI or anything. Just swing with different moves in different places. Doing so makes sonic feel less effective than other hit and run/bait and punish characters such as joker or zss, who could be even harder to catch and predict when u have a good projectile or a safe nair, but can also frickin destroy you off a single opening.
I ain’t reading that shit seeing “sonic is honest” is a massive red flag already jfc Fully intangible side-b that’s absolutely safe and unpunishable Fsmash dealing as much as Steve’s diamond one Absolutely no disadvantage
It's not intangible or unpunishable. The video explains how the hurtbox is larger than the hitbox. My point is that it's safe to spam rising nair with most of the decent characters in this game. And getting an advantage state started off of that pretty much ruins the best strength of sonic which is downloading all your habits at no risk to himself. Also it's a frickin fsmash.
You're talking about "getting advantage state started" against sonic but that's one of the biggest problems with this character. He has no disadvantage. He escapes juggles very well with spring and dair and escaping to corner in general, he has one of the safest recoveries in the game and is virtually impossible to edgeguard and getting your kill confirms against sonic is very very hard for most characters as against sonic you can't really choose your hits, you'll mostly be hitting stuff like lingering aerials and neutral pokes which don't lead to much. He has decent options out of the ledge but ledgetrapping is definitely the one spot where it's possible to beat sonic, so there's something at least. In contrast to that, sonic has some very solid combos and damage output, especially when he gets platform extensions, he can get reasonably early kills from advantage state with fsmash 2 frames or with edgeguarding, which he's amazing at, and at later percents he can even kill from spin moves into fair and nair and from backthrow, you'll never see sonic's opponent living past like 160. Imo the biggest problem with spin moves is not that they're "impossible to deal with", it's just the risk reward, cause sonic gets a full combo on hit while his opponent gets like a sour nair into nothing if they win the interaction, and this same interaction keeps going over and over again
@fonsie19 Thats a good point for other matchups. Like im a gnw secondary after a mario main and i dont like that up b helping sonic out of frame traps at all. However, he is still in disadvantage after he uses it unless you committed to something extra laggy. So it only really comes out against like trappers or if he's stuck in the corner. Just to reset the situation somewhere a little safer. Also his starter combo can tack on about 50 damage if he catches you at very low percents under the platform (which is a very specific scenario you can consciously avoid), but think about how many confirms he stills needs to take the stock from there. He isn't good at mid to high percents and has no moves with set knockback or anything. None of that seems especially strong on a bait and punish character. I mean zss has straight kill confirms at like 40% and spams an invincible down b in disadvantage, joker has his fast ass counter and so many good combo extensions at literally every %, sheik has bouncing fish, greninja sucks, and I won't talk about the weird ones like maybe yoshi, diddy, or puff. The same playstyle kind of applies every time you play a bait and punish vs a brawler, you get a messy hit, you put the pressure on, and you try to guess right on another option so that you can catch them in a combo. As a brawler 2-3 solid openings should be plenty to score the stock. If anything, sonic needs more opening than his competitors of the same archetype. He truly doesnt have an impressive advantage or disadvantage when lined up with a lot of the other top tiers. If you ask me, sonic is only the best hit and run character because his neutral is easy: Every other hit and run character has a good neutral, but it is not easy to play. Their mobility tends to work against the player piloting them. Being evasive and unpredictable while also putting pressure all over your enemy requires a lot of precise inputs that take up tons mental space and inhibit the player's ability to actually process their enemies habits and punish them. So either they start to move predictably and autopilot a little while fishing for info, or they focus too much on neutral and dont tack on proper amounts of damage before their opponent adapts again. Sonic doesn't need to change his air drift or worry about how many times he's jumping. He just totally stops all of his momentum at random places. Which requires no precision and is even harder to punish. All while he processes all the things you still have to worry about as you have no idea when he will let go of that spin dash at Mach speed.
@@SmaxSSB very insightful. Tbh I was paying more attention to the Mario side of it because someone in my region is a good Mario and he has my number and he plays very similar to snow.
@@blindedbyviridi you're bouncing and doing tricks on it (thanks borb, I really appreciate the feedback! I was worried it'd be too tame or cover basic knowledge)
![[SSBU] The Move That Makes Cloud Good](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LNX18ZToOa4/mqdefault.jpg)
![[SSBU] The Move That Makes Cloud Good](/img/tr.png)
"Mario's goal is to rush down and sonic's goal is to bait and punish" might be the funniest thing to hear out of context
What?💀
@@_Hero_Link_yeh since you’d imagine Sonic would be the one about speed
For the last 50 seconds, I feel like Snow was using fire ball as less of a poking tool, but rather just a tool to annoy Sonix and maybe to get some chip damage to extend his lead. While Sonix was able to call out some of these jumps, Snow did a good job of realizing that Sonix's chip damage from catching these jumps won't matter too much, especially since Mario can't get gimped easily with how powerful his air drift and up b are, and considering that Mario's damage output is much better, which paid off in the end. Finally, I think it was a bit of a mistake for Snow to try extending his advantage state after that up air combo because you can see that although Snow got back into center stage, there was a chance that Sonix could've landed an up air leading to his own advantage state, and potentially evening up the game if Snow gets unlucky. I also think that in the last 15 seconds, Snow could've been a bit safer and not really tried to call out Sonix's movement because there were a few situations where if Sonix got the whiff punish, he would've gotten some damage; maybe not enough to get Snow at a higher percent than him, but could've led to a disaster if Sonix tried to cheese Snow and was successful.
@@tomfoolery2885 I love these observations! I agree with them. I also think Snow should've played it safer in the last 15 seconds considering his lead and how risky it was, but thankfully it still payed off. Thank you for taking the time to make your comment!
watching someone camp and then lose after wasting their own time and everyone elses is awesome
This video is so much better than your old one! We got your voice now. You explain both players plans and tools in the match up and you pinned points on what you thinked makes the winner, win! Good video
@@dominicst4536 thank you so much, I appreciate the feedback!
To think that the first tournament for the game, held before official release, ended with a battle between Mario & Sonic.
And now we see much the same happening at Supernova, with the best player for each character.
Funny how history can sorta repeat itself.
This is my first time seeing a new Mario player that has potential to beat Sonix, I’m surprise it wasn’t Dark Wizzy or Kurama. Well done by snow.
“A Mario” bro this is the Mario
Snow is that guy
@@tiposauce6417 yes, but I opted to put 'a Mario' instead of Snow due to him not being as well known in NA. He's also had a somewhat recent spike in performances too. I never meant to downplay Snow by not having his name on the title
@@SmaxSSB ah ok I feel like it’s not uncommon for people in NA to recognize snow given his recent appearances at our majors but sorry for making a mean reply over it which I put 2 seconds of thought into. Nice video btw
@@tiposauce6417 it's all good
@@SmaxSSByeah i didnt know who snow was. I think it makes the title more catchy to regular youtube viewers who arent as aware as others.
*Sonix: I'm gonna time out everybody* 😎
*Snow: How about N O ?*
Every time sonix loses I feel infinite pleasure. Sonic is so annoying
Snow said his favorite Na player to fight was Sonix I found his answer interesting because it showed me that player has a strong mentality and he does not mind playing against sonic at all it seems to me he had the mindset of it is what it is because it seems playing against people like Raru has made him used to cheese. Plus it shows me that he believes that his character does well against sonic in general.
To further add onto to this, I've seen his Mario Matchup Chart from 2 years ago, and even though it's old, Sonic was in the (Roughly translated) +0.5 tier, meaning he thinks Mario outright beats Sonic, if just slightly.
By seeing how he played, I can believe this
Very cool video!!!! Watching this live was crazy to see, snow is so good. Slick editing too, keep it up!
@@CyberGoons thank you so much! I really appreciate it!
Them last 50 seconds had some of the best platform play ever.
Hiding under them, fireballs, on last second went over play instead of under as a mix up… YAH BABY!😊
I disagree Mario is rushdown, he's more of a bait and punish character as well. To be a true rushdown you need good ground speed and burst options. Especially in this matchup hes forcing sonix to approach him not the other way around, fireball being used to force sonix to scrap up close and use his normals
I like how you broke down the uses for fireball and nair here, already knew them but its nice seeing them put into different words.
That being said: WTF DAIR CAN DO IT TOO???
MARIO IS BROKEN!!!
@@Jagm3854 why thank you, I appreciate it!
Snow is now the most liked mario player
good video, always enjoy good breakdowns.
if i could offer a little criticism, i don't think that there needs to be so many slow-mo scenes, it felt like half the video was just talking about fireball. i think there's also more you can talk about wrt the set such as how snow was willing to play for time when he got a lead.
@@Vykrii the criticism is very much appreciated, thank you. I'll make sure to take note of it
WIthout spreading hate it's satisfying to see a character who's known to time others out getting timed out by one who usually gets timed out.
Those matches were both fun and hard to watch cuz I was rooting for Sonix but the Mario was cracked fr
You’re rooting for a Sonic??
@@BigDaddyKnez what's wrong with that lmao
@@BigDaddyKnez Yea when Sonix isn’t camping he’s actually a really good player, besides it’s not like rooting for a Steve or a Palu
@@Rushnrgy rooting for a Sonic is WAY worse than rooting for a palu
I can never root for sonic, i just really dont like the gameplan, and especially timeouts. Even the mario winning with a timeout felt unsatisfying but timeouts are just too common with sonic.
Finally a Official analysis on Sonic and what I can do about it Thanks for the vid
@@608dxgamer4 no problem!
Great video and analysis
Seeing this video reminds me of the time Elegant timed out Ken’s Sonic back in Sm4sh.
Good vid
5:30 nice sonic skin
i thought kurama was the best
He was, but now he isn't due to a mix of not going to much and underperforming when he does. Snows gotten a lot of top level wins and while he hasn't won anything big yet he's come rlly close. He beat acola for instance
Mario has to work hard in this MU compared to sonic, without fire ball or flood this would be unwinnable
Well obviously he's missing 2 moves
@@jx3jsquad671its not really that obvious, imagine ganondorf not having access to uptilt and warlock punch. Thats 2 moves but he rarely uses them anyway.
@@aydenator27 Gannondorf is also the worst character in the game, him having two mostly useless moves doesn't prove anything.
He could used fludd too
mario vs sonic is an even matchup. this isnt some "crazy upset"
@@zakomations it's more so an upset between the players themselves than the characters
no its not ☠️☠️☠️ this is marios worst matchup
@@kureiflamenot worst but its definitely bad
It’s +1 Sonic
@@RealBroccoliHour no, just because sonix lost to snow, it doesnt mean taht its not -2 anymore
Snitch
We hate Sonix
Why
@LuigiStar31
Toxic ✅️
Can't take a loss✅️
Camper✅️
Unfuh to play against according to nearly everyone✅️
Litteraly all he has to do is play Sonic like a rush down (something the character is very good at) and people would like him
@@GooseBibleTunes damn
@@GooseBibleTunes We all have opinions and I respect that, but calling a player "toxic" and not being able to take a loss is a bit outta hand. I've watched alot of sonix (and enjoy it!) and he never shows any toxic traits? Its wild that you say that players say he's unfun to play against. Maybe annoying but i dont think its straight up unfun. Im pretty sure he plays with Spar0 frequently and is rivals with Tweek too. Calling him a camper is pretty spot on in certain scenarios. People just need to learn that you can just run in and rush down effectively and consistently with sonic. He can play aggressive and pressure opponents but sometimes its not worth the risk, especially if the opponent wants you to approach. I'm not saying you have to like him, just don't say such mean things about a really good player.
@ghostanimationz found the Sonix fan
Im sorry but sonic is a very honest character. People are saying hes cheesey but he doesnt have any consistent ways to cheese stocks.
Professional play is just about the information advantage and the reward for capitalizing on the said info.
Sonic gets a very honest moderate reward, but his ability to pick up info comes at pretty much no risk to himself IF U MAKE THE MISTAKE of getting impatient and using unsafe moves without a read.
But think about how many characters have projectiles (you need to be able to take space off of them so they need to be a little slow and not too laggy. Or they can do tons of damage on their own) or item set ups that can pressure sonic at his effective range. Im thinking wolf, pikachu, snake, pacman, rob, steve, just to name a few with good advantage and kits in general. You basically flip the situation to have the superior neutral game at both long and short range. Which forces the sonic to start worrying about spacing himself carefully at a specific midrange that, depending on your characters ground speed and range, could be very difficult to maintain (where perrying a projectile could lead to a punish) before sonic just loses to probability.
The other thing u want if u can have it is a safe, RISING aerial; something that stays active until you are actionable again. (Although this only even out the neutral game when u jump. Gravity prevents you from staying airborn the whole game.) You need to be able to throw it out early in case sonic jumps into you, but throwing out an unsafe attack early means you are giving away information that can actually get punished later in the set. Having one of these air options is reallly good for stage control. You can jump out of the corner all day and it doesnt matter if sonic has the read on it. Successfully landing one of these could knock sonic to the edge of the map, where the neutral game is favorable for you or even at worst.
Just using these moves properly drops sonic down the tier list imo. Its not like were dealing with fine margins either, like playing the matchup doesnt require you to exploit any specific interaction or DI or anything. Just swing with different moves in different places. Doing so makes sonic feel less effective than other hit and run/bait and punish characters such as joker or zss, who could be even harder to catch and predict when u have a good projectile or a safe nair, but can also frickin destroy you off a single opening.
I ain’t reading that shit seeing “sonic is honest” is a massive red flag already jfc
Fully intangible side-b that’s absolutely safe and unpunishable
Fsmash dealing as much as Steve’s diamond one
Absolutely no disadvantage
It's not intangible or unpunishable. The video explains how the hurtbox is larger than the hitbox.
My point is that it's safe to spam rising nair with most of the decent characters in this game. And getting an advantage state started off of that pretty much ruins the best strength of sonic which is downloading all your habits at no risk to himself.
Also it's a frickin fsmash.
You're talking about "getting advantage state started" against sonic but that's one of the biggest problems with this character. He has no disadvantage. He escapes juggles very well with spring and dair and escaping to corner in general, he has one of the safest recoveries in the game and is virtually impossible to edgeguard and getting your kill confirms against sonic is very very hard for most characters as against sonic you can't really choose your hits, you'll mostly be hitting stuff like lingering aerials and neutral pokes which don't lead to much. He has decent options out of the ledge but ledgetrapping is definitely the one spot where it's possible to beat sonic, so there's something at least. In contrast to that, sonic has some very solid combos and damage output, especially when he gets platform extensions, he can get reasonably early kills from advantage state with fsmash 2 frames or with edgeguarding, which he's amazing at, and at later percents he can even kill from spin moves into fair and nair and from backthrow, you'll never see sonic's opponent living past like 160.
Imo the biggest problem with spin moves is not that they're "impossible to deal with", it's just the risk reward, cause sonic gets a full combo on hit while his opponent gets like a sour nair into nothing if they win the interaction, and this same interaction keeps going over and over again
Saying sonic is honest is crazy
@fonsie19
Thats a good point for other matchups. Like im a gnw secondary after a mario main and i dont like that up b helping sonic out of frame traps at all.
However, he is still in disadvantage after he uses it unless you committed to something extra laggy. So it only really comes out against like trappers or if he's stuck in the corner. Just to reset the situation somewhere a little safer.
Also his starter combo can tack on about 50 damage if he catches you at very low percents under the platform (which is a very specific scenario you can consciously avoid), but think about how many confirms he stills needs to take the stock from there. He isn't good at mid to high percents and has no moves with set knockback or anything.
None of that seems especially strong on a bait and punish character. I mean zss has straight kill confirms at like 40% and spams an invincible down b in disadvantage, joker has his fast ass counter and so many good combo extensions at literally every %, sheik has bouncing fish, greninja sucks, and I won't talk about the weird ones like maybe yoshi, diddy, or puff.
The same playstyle kind of applies every time you play a bait and punish vs a brawler, you get a messy hit, you put the pressure on, and you try to guess right on another option so that you can catch them in a combo. As a brawler 2-3 solid openings should be plenty to score the stock. If anything, sonic needs more opening than his competitors of the same archetype.
He truly doesnt have an impressive advantage or disadvantage when lined up with a lot of the other top tiers.
If you ask me, sonic is only the best hit and run character because his neutral is easy: Every other hit and run character has a good neutral, but it is not easy to play. Their mobility tends to work against the player piloting them. Being evasive and unpredictable while also putting pressure all over your enemy requires a lot of precise inputs that take up tons mental space and inhibit the player's ability to actually process their enemies habits and punish them. So either they start to move predictably and autopilot a little while fishing for info, or they focus too much on neutral and dont tack on proper amounts of damage before their opponent adapts again. Sonic doesn't need to change his air drift or worry about how many times he's jumping. He just totally stops all of his momentum at random places. Which requires no precision and is even harder to punish. All while he processes all the things you still have to worry about as you have no idea when he will let go of that spin dash at Mach speed.
I hate smash bros TF2 videos please
what did you think of the video
@@SmaxSSB very insightful. Tbh I was paying more attention to the Mario side of it because someone in my region is a good Mario and he has my number and he plays very similar to snow.
@@blindedbyviridi you're bouncing and doing tricks on it (thanks borb, I really appreciate the feedback! I was worried it'd be too tame or cover basic knowledge)
No