Is This OUT of LINE??????
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- There are certain things you just shouldn’t do at the poker table; hit & run at cash, hiding your big chips & berating the recreational players are just a few examples. But, what about talking at the table whilst other people are playing a massive hand? That’s exactly what happened on Game of Gold after Fedor Holz put Dan Cates to the test on the river. Dan Cates was not happy with David Williams after this!
When in position and you’ve been checked to on the river, you should generally use a bet size around 50% pot or larger with the hands you choose to bet. By betting small you open yourself up to a check-raise in exchange for not extracting that much value when you do get called. However, betting small could be a viable strategy if you believe your opponent to be hyper aggressive that may raise worse hands for value or as a bluff.
Dan Cates also known as Jungleman is a 33 year old from the USA and is regarded by many as one of the best poker players in the world both online and live. He has played in all the high stakes poker cash games around the world for many years. He has over $12,000,000 in live tournament earnings, putting him in the top 80 on the all time money list. He famously won the World Series Of Poker (WSOP) $50,000 Players Championships (regarded as one of the hardest poker tournaments to win) in 2021 and again in 2022.
Fedor Holz “CrownUpGuy” is a German professional poker player and a regular in high stakes poker tournaments all around the world. He has over $40,000,000 in live tournament earnings, putting him in the top 15 on the all-time money list. He also has 2 World Series of Poker (WSOP) bracelets.
Filmed in Seoul, South Korea and hosted by experienced poker broadcaster Ali Nejad, Game of Gold combines high stakes poker with survival reality TV. Over the course of the 12 episodes, the sixteen participants competed across various poker formats, including Sit & Go’s, Heads-Up games, Indian Poker and a standard tournament poker game.
The poker players on the show included Daniel Negreanu “KidPoker”, Jason Koon, Fedor Holz “CrownUpGuy”, Kevin Martin, Kyna England, Josh Arieh, Daniel Cates “Jungleman”, Lukas Robinson “RobinPoker”, Nikita Luther, Charlie Carrel “Epiphany77”, Johan Guilbert “YoH ViraL”, Olga Iermolcheva, David Williams, Andy Tsai “Andy Stacks”, Michael Soyza, and Maria Ho.
In Round 1, a four-tier Sit & Go poker format, each team (spades, diamonds, hearts, and clubs) put a poker player into a separate round of four-handed poker action, with Game of Gold coins on offer for finishing first, second, third, or fourth. The rounds increased in the amount of coins that were offered, until the fourth ‘mystery’ round, where no-one knew how many coins were on offer. The team with the least Game of Gold coins at the end of all four Sit & Go’s would be eliminated.
The final six players competed in a winner-take-all format Sit & Go (SNG). This was unique as it meant there was no Independent Chip Model (ICM) pressure on any of the poker players.
🔍 Preflop:
Fedor Holz opens from the button to 120,000 with KQo. Dan Cates defends his big blind with Q7 of hearts, and they head to the flop.
💸 Flop - Ah Qc Jd:
Cates checks with his second pair before facing a continuation bet of 70,000 from Holz, who also has second pair but with a stronger kicker. Additionally, Holz has a gutshot straight draw to broadway along with his pair of queens. Cates decides to call and see the turn.
💣 Turn - Qd
The Q of diamonds on the turn proves disastrous for Cates as he improves to trips but is still outkicked by Holz. After Cates checks, Holz fires a second barrel of 300,000 this time. Cates calls once again, and they head to the river.
🌊 River - Tc
The T of clubs on the river might be a blessing in disguise for Cates as now he loses to any king that just made a straight. He checks to Holz, who fires a ⅓ pot-sized bet of 280,000 with his straight. Cates now goes deep into the tank, using a gold coin which gives him an extra time extension to make this tough decision. All the while, David Williams is talking in the seat to his direct left. Will this affect Cates' decision to call or fold? Watch this entire poker video to find out!
Jonathan Little analyzes live poker hands from TV poker shows such as Poker After Dark, Hustler Casino Live, The Lodge Poker Club & PokerGO. He also analyzes popular poker vloggers such as Rampage Poker, Brad Owen, Jaman Burton, Ashley Sleeth, Wolfgang Poker and others!
You will also find many poker hands on this channel that contain some of the biggest names in the poker world such as; Daniel Negreanu, Phil Hellmuth, Phil Ivey, Doug Polk, Garrett Adelstein, Tom ‘Durrrr’ Dwan, Dan ‘Jungleman’ Cates, Fedor Holz & many more!
#pokerstrategy #gameofgold #ggpoker
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What other poker format would YOU like to see on the next season of Game of Gold? 🤯
Dealer's Choice
More actual poker playing
PLO
@@therealpeopleofvancouver 🤣
Make it so that time bank chips work as time bank chips, but you can also give them to players to muzzle them for a minute.
The most out of line thing is Charlie Carroll still getting air time.
Yes, it's out of line. While someone is tanking and I'm not in the hand, I'll chat with other players all the time. But I will NEVER be caught blabbering across a player's face while they're tanking.
yea, just some common courtesy.
He was very sorry straight after. Clearly was out of line. But don't think it's too normal for dw usually a respectful guy
Who cares dummy 😊
I do think Jungleman was slightly distracted by David, though David was speaking in a very soft tone/volume, so he was at least being considerate in that regard. I also don't think he had any intention to disrupt Jungleman, his apology came off as sincere. During "standard" hands small table talk is fine (IMO), but when time chips are used (or very "large" pots), you should keep quiet out of respect.
I think the editors reduced David's volume in production
I think the most important thing here is how David sincerely apologizes a number of times afterwards. That says a lot to me about his true character.
For me David Williams was out of line in this spot. Also in general in "Game of Gold" he showed a big mouth with little behind it. Too bad, I had expected more from him
It wasnt too bad , David was calm and quiet and immediately apologised when called on it , what do you want ? Blood , yes money is involved and its not quite the best thing to do at the table ,it seems in this particular game gamesmanship is a factor too
Agreed. And I imagine with a game show format, TV producers have encouraged personalities to come out.
Over the years I've watched jungleman yapping thru countless big games he's not involved in. This guy is never at a lack for words. For him to get upset is very childish and pretentious.
has he ever talked right next to a guy tanking in a tournament who's spent a few time banks thinking about a big decision?
I don’t think you know what the word pretentious means to use it in this context.
“Please next time don’t talk in the middle of the hand”
lol, yeah that’s so childish and pretentious of him to act like that
for sure you can find videos of jungle having no issue being much louder than david here when somebody else is tanking. much more actually distracting.
It’s because he’s on the spectrum
Very out of line. Once that time bank chip crossed the line, it's a bright line in the sand.
I learn something every time I watch a video from you coach!
I agree with what you said about the drawing the lines and not talking. But the second point made that this is poker is probably even more valid, something I forget at the table and am working on. Not everyone is there for the same reason as me and to behave the same way as I do. And thats ok.
My table talk opinion is if the bet is not an all-in, or effectively an all-in, all table chat, across players or not, that is not directed at anyone not in the hand is acceptable.
If Jungleman was facing a Fedor shove, David should probably quiet down. But when the bet is 1/4 pot and only a fraction of Cates' stack? Meh, nothing to see here.
Given the format and Jungle had to use a time bank to think, I think Williams probably should have kept quiet.
When large pot and time chips involved yes. However all Jungleman had to do was ask ask him not to speak. Of course it seems to be accepted if Fedder was talking and chirping Jungleman that seems to be acceptable in todays game.
It's also a team event, it appears. So if Amy of his teammates treat Williams or his teammates equally, there should be no repercussions.
Not out of line because these guys are pros and should be able to handle the situation by maintaining their focus. If Cates was really bothered and wanted them to stop, then he should speak up during the hand instead of expressing dissatisfaction after the hand was done. That’s like calling a foul after the game is over. Also, those two used something legal in their poker player arsenal to potentially distract Cates. The Dealer would have said something to protect the game if they were out of line.
Yeah.
This kinda thing started a beef in a hand I was in becuz I made a large, pot-sized value bet into a very wet board where all draws missed and my opponent was trying to figure out if I was bluffing or not when another player was just droning on and on and on and talking about the hand even.
Almost caused a fight and only gag order from the Floor stopped it. My opponent ultimately made the call with a weaker hand and shipped 100bb my way then left the game.
In a poker world, where tanking is the new norm and it ruins the game, absolutely you can cross talk. Tanking every hand is poor etiquette. The shot clock is to long, and time banks should be (1).
0:55 Jonathan: With backdoor hearts, quite some outs to split the pot, and chunky 22% equity, I would probably not consider Jungle as " almost drawing dead". 🤔😉
Yeah, that was an odd comment
Half of that 22% is the split equity. Jungle is drawing to three clean outs. Maybe it's a bit of an overstatement, but it's not far off.
Was Drawing Dead or Chunky used more incorrectly?
Out of line but I call this game "survivor rules" it's reality TV so it's fine.
I think it's particularly out of line in this scenario because it's not like Jungleman has been tanking for minutes on end - he only has 30 seconds (plus his time bank). Like just wait a minute for the hand to be done.
In a normal game, I would call it bad etiquette but not to the point of being way out of line or anything. In this format, I think it's totally fine to do something like that to potentially cause them to make a mistake.
Yes, out of line, but only moderately so. Jungle is a pro. It's a TV show, etc. etc. Jungle could have asked Williams to stop (he shouldn't have to, but he could have). On the misconduct scale of 0-10, this is a 0.9.
If etiquette rules do not apply to the format, then by all means, go for it. In a game where its part of the concept to allow players to enjoy the experience and play their best, then its out of line.
There are no floor rules that state you can't talk during a hand. Only thing that I personally find crossing the line is speaking to a player who is in the hand during the hand. People want to invent things to get upset about all of the time because they're frustrated with a spot or frustrated that they don't know what to do. It's unreasonable to expect people not in the hand to not be able to talk to others not in the hand. Players are free to bring and wear noise cancelling headphones.
In general negative reactions like these are just an expression of the tilt from the hand and not from the talking. So long as it's not ridiculous, pros should be able to think despite distractions. If jungle had won the hand he might have still thought the talking was inappropriate but wouldn't have expressed it with hostility.
I don't think it was out-of-line because it wasn't excessive, but I do think it was unnecessary, inconsiderate and just plain odd (it only make sense as a deliberate attempt to be distracting).
It’s a huge pot. Yes David shouldn’t have talked but also not the end of the world either. Kind of fits the special game that it is.
Also these types of bets on the river feel like blocker bets, it’s hard but it’s a good when you get that sense.
1) This wasn’t very high stakes for most of the players AFAIK. I don’t know if I’m right, but the prize pool for this was Winner Take All and was probably subsidized by the production.
2) David Williams was speaking on with a quiet tone, and in more casual setting players do tend to talk a bit more even when others are in medium spots. This isn’t a black-and-white spot where speaking is always rude, but it is definitely straddling the line.
3) Jungle still has the right to be annoyed and communicate that with David Williams to be quiet. And given that David seem to be adjusting his volume to the moment, I’m pretty sure he would have 100% acquiesced.
4) The most optimal situation would have been something like “Hey David, I know you wanted to talk and I know you were speaking quietly, but your talking was still distracting me in a big spot, can you be more mindful when others are making big decisions.” But given that this is Jungleman, his way of handling it was perfectly fine as well.
I agree but #4 is weird. Jungle was very restrained and polite in his request already; nobody talks the way your example suggests
Yes, David Williams is out of line. It is incredibly rude! I have been in Jungle’s exact situation and actually ended up loudly asking the people talking to please shut up while I’m thinking
Since when was 22% "almost dead".... it's 1 in 5 !!
Yes, but turns out the two pros handled it well.
It was handled how it should be, doesn't warrant a freakout - but asking someone to not do that during a big hand right in your ear is reasonable, then you move on
When is the next season coming out ?
Never hopefully lol
i remember david telling the loose cannon it was out of line when he played in the big game with perkins and hellmuth.
Aside from the talking. Starting hand strength: Is this a good example of why Q7 is NOT a hand you should be playing with in most situations?
There could have easily been a full house on that board and its odd he didnt talk about it.
David took full accountability immediately after being called into question...rare.
I met David Williams at Panda Express in Las Vegas Vegas we lived in the same subdivision in Green Valley around 2007 and he was a little arrogant and after eating he showed me his Maserati lol
If David was in the hand and someone was talking across him during such a hand he would be the FIRST to bellow so sorry David, you do a great meal but OOL this time. ALSO, David should have alerted Jungle that his collar was out of sync, nice guy, yeah right, when it's all his way he is great.
Regardless of the format, David should’ve known better and he immediately apologized. Jungle wasn’t out of line or overly harsh either, so I think they both handled it fine.
Unwritten rule: if you're sat between two people playing a huge pot especially with a timebank in play then just be quiet until the hand is over even if another player tries to engage you in conversation as you'll be talking through them as Williams is doing to Jungleman here. Koon with the soul read tho lol
He's not "out of line" because he had zero obligation to keep quiet. However, it's common courtesy to shut the EFF up during a big hand.
I love how Maria believes in Daniel
Waay out of line. Its funny when youre mid conversation and you hear someone else say "all in" and you both go quiet and look over. Reminds me of church when your mom told you to shush.
having 22% equity is not "drawing almost dead".
I watched this originally and I thought David was out of line.
If someone else had a queen they likely had a full house
There are many full houses on the river tho
and he can't even beat a K by the river. and 28% sure at least looks like he was trying to get called (not to say fedor couldn't take the worst part of his range and turn it into this sizing ever to balance this).
It wasnt bad until jungle used the time chip, after that it was bad etiquette
What I disagree with the most is Little's "Anything goes" ruling.
Is this a street fight or a boxing match? I prefer a boxing match as there are soem rules and etiquettes to follow.
In Jonathan's "anything goes, if it gets inside their heads, it's fair game" so we draw no lines at all?
If I don't bathe for a week knowing my stench will distract the players, that is "good gamesmanship"?
If I intentionally eat a bunch of Taco Bell, and drink 3 beers, knowing damned well this will cause me to fart nonstop, is this an acceptable strategy to get inside their heads, through their nostrils?
I hate angle shooters, even if they technically don't overtly break a rule, but Jonathan is fine with it, and will call it good gamesmanship.
Shame on you, Sir Little! If we want to present poker as a legitimate sport, then stop allowing any and all tactics.
~~~ Has DW not read Tommy Angelo's books?
It's a crappy thing but legal so it's the bottom line that matters.
We can't talk about a hand in a tournament at our casino, but cash is different...
how are they not playing normal etiquette. if its good strategy here why wouldnt it be good strategy at any other tournament?
Tommy Angelo respected player and coach would say that talking across someone is poor etiquette.
Terrible river card for Holtz! lol happens to me all the time online well not all the time just the regular amount probably, easy to notice though it's like I got the guy beat already I don't need 4 cards for a straight to come up on the board and scare him damnit.
Definitely not out of line. Especially if they are all competing against each other.
I think its out of line, especially in a game with a shot clock.
If it tilts Jungle, it's in line.
Jesus, when you started drawing lines it felt like preschool 😂 if you have to explain basic manners using diagrams then your falling below the poker intelligence threshold 😂😂
Out of line. When the time chips go in, you need to shut up. Using a time chip is essentially paying for thinking time. That's YOUR time, you paid for it, everyone needs to shut up for 30 seconds.
How is it even a question? Of course he is out of line!
Yes, he should let the man make his decision without distraction
In a normal game, yes, it's way out of line. In this very unique format, no, it's fine.
Yes.
Yes way out of line. To run your cake hole when someone has a big decision to make. Unless there's A fire in the building.
Rude but, not "out of line".
Exactly this
Yes.. be courteous of other players
Yes it is
Yes…
johnathan….youre my horse in the $50k NL event….i need u to crush it for me! Take it down, all the way from the top.
it was very definitely rude but not surprising at a poker table
Yes, definitely
Those sunglasses are unbecoming.
He's certainly out of line.
I hate whatever reality show hybrid they are going for here
Sick fold tho.
Oh jungle really looked tilted. Not
Talking across people involved in a pot is totally disrespectful.
He should get up & talk away from the table if he needs to talk over JM.
Or, stfu. If you aren't in the pot, you aren't. Imho.
Boomer Dave is making the rounds with a suggestion for a new WSOP bracelet rating system based upon the most difficult element in tournament play, the number of entrants.
.Gold Bracelet with three stars….more than 10,OOO entrants.
.Gold Bracelet with two stars…..7,500 to 9,999 entrants.
.Gold Bracelet with one star…….5,000 to 7,499 entrants.
.Silver Bracelet……500 to 4,999 entrants.
.Bronze Bracelet……less than 500 entrants.
Yes, it's out of line.
yes
At a casino, not at all but in this show, it's ok
So poker meets Baseketball?
I couldn't be mad if he apologized. 😆
Yes, he was out of line
Poker is a game of war. Anything goes
Yes, he’s out of line
David was definitely out of line talking in a big hand. Read the room dude. Jeezus
Definitely out of line and a great fold.
If David was next to Jason, fine, but talking across Dan isn't good.
David Williams is generally out of line.
Jamie Gold?
No not out of line…. It’s not golf… their convo has no outcome on the hand as long as they aren’t mentioning anything about the hand
Yes he was out of line. He’s been playing long enough to know to shut the F up here
shove. the board is paired.
Also Maria is the GOAT
Talking during poker is part of the game. Being aware of big situations is also part of the game.
This was a relatively big moment, where time bank chips were deployed. That suggestions one ought to be respectful and refrain from talking. Plenty of wiggle room in this statement, but it is courtesy and golden rule application. David recognized he was out of line. Which takes the edge off a bit. The "saved money" line was out of line IMHO. And quite frankly, if it was a tell that was keyed on, would have ruined that info; stupid comment.
I’m not gay but the dude with long hair, he’s gorgeous
Not sure many people know what the term out of line means.I mean it’s rude and bad etiquette but saying OUT OF LINE is just stupid as it’s not going against any rules at all and in the end might of saved Jungleman and David apoligized so why make a big deal over it