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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ค. 2024
- Geometry Dash is well known as one of the hardest games ever created. Beyond the main levels themselves, the absurd difficulty of the hardest community-made levels is simply a spectacle to witness. But for a lot of people, and especially newcomers, it is very hard to understand what exactly makes the level they’re watching difficult. And so, some members of the community looked to one of the most well-known terms in speedrunning and difficult games: the frame perfect. I want to explain why this method of measuring difficulty is extremely inaccurate. And simultaneously, I will explain to you how frame perfects work, what makes them hard, and what makes the hardest levels actually difficult.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Intro
02:27 FPS Discrepencies
05:27 What Makes Timings Hard
07:09 Rest Of The Level?
10:03 Outro
MUSIC USED:
Sonic Unleashed - Windmill Isle (Day)
Super Mario Odyssey - Bubblaine
Super Mario Odyssey - Steam Gardens
Celeste - Mirror Temple (Mirror Magic Mix)
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Gang-Plank Galleon - เกม
oh and before it's asked about, a lot of this information will change if click between frames is either allowed, or added to vanilla gd. 60fps frame perfects would be way more inaccurate if it was allowed. also the comparison between 60fps and 240fps would be different; i just used 240fps because that is the current limit in vanilla gd
meet the frame perfects
Wait is it? I could set my in game fps to 360 a week ago just fine, without geode or any other mods
Wouldn't CBF eliminate frame perfects entirely? Essentially CBF disregards the framerate entirely when it comes to your inputs and only takes into account the polling rate of your device thus meaning that frame perfects would ceize to exist because now your FPS doesn't matter but only when you actually clicked, regardless of your FPS.
So frame perfects wouldn't really be more inaccurate, they simply wouldn't exist because the framerate doesn't matter anymore.
Edit:
This would still make previous frame perfect jumps difficult but now a 120 FPS Frame Perfect jump can be done on any framerate, same with any other frame perfect, instead of having to rely on certain framerates for these jumps to be the easiest they can be.
@@user-bt8xr5si9yyoutube mobile is so buggy that it deleted my message, but yeah they'll be obsolete besides hardware limits or limiting like my 120hz touch sample phone, or old versions of gd.
If cbf is allowed we'll have pixel perfects or smth like that
Nobody plays extremes on 60fps anymore but so many people are obsessed with 60fps frame perfects
Ya, who would be crazy enough to play an extreme demon on 60…
60 fps fp’s are just what everyone is used to
im on 60 fps mobile and i can beat extremes perfectly fine
extremes on 60fps are completley playable after 2.2, its just list demons that no one really plays on 60fps
Because 60 fps is what we can compare to speedrun maneuvers etc in other games, 60fps is default.
bro this guy has this weird ability to get me absolutely hooked into literally any topic he talks about
that's my goal :)
True I just realized this
gd colon
FAX FRFR
THIS IS SO TRUE😭
thank you for mentioning that LeTim clearly states in every video and in the spreadsheet that you should not concern the amount of FPs as a difficulty.
def saving this video for arguments LOL 🙏
i've had to explain this so many times to people
wild nucleus spotted in the wild
true tho
@@elliotsyptystPOOF
Facts
eve says hi
this is why this guy is my favourite gd youtuber
1. Goes over topics in a informational way and easy to digest
2. Doesn’t take 10 hours
3. keeps my attention throught the entire video
doesn't take hours unless people want me to talk for hours in which case i will condense years into hours
@@alexplaysgd and still make the hour long video make me watch until the end
I agree.
And doesn't "clickbait" the topic with a basic vid like most would (though don't got time to watch with audio rn) He's already making connections to other games like smb and what not when most people would just have extremes in the background or just webcam and talk about what we all know.
@@grapejuice6192 omg the guy from lopsided chicken
Difficulty in gd is so complex actually. You have way more factors than just frame perfects and then you also have people with different skill sets. I can for example do a small progress on Zodiac or Crimson Planet and be like "ye, I get how people beat this". And then I take a look at like all the new extreme demons and they just look all impossible to me. It's just 100% memory, which is way out of my range up to the point when levels like Slaughterhouse don't even seem like something that catastrophically difficult.
We should start measuring how many frames that clicks are on 240/360. Tidal Wave is a really gruesome example, since the level has two hundred 60hz frame perfects, but I can guarantee that most of those are well over 4 frames on 240
All you have to do is take Slugtherhouse and Kyouki, match the number of FP, and see the location of each of them in the Demon List, and that's it
FP is not an integrated difficulty measure
0:34 LMAO
my joke about sakupen hell got in, now everyone is going to think I think sakupen hell is easy freezy
i just needed to find a screenshot of an argument LOL
@@alexplaysgd 😭
once this video takes off, im gonna get so many dms again
@@alexplaysgd nice name lol
Technically the updated silent clubstep is possible in mobile, so maybe in 10 or 20 years it'll be beaten on mobile
W video and very clearly shown the inaccuracy of using frame perfects to determine one level's difficulty. The comparison between 60fps and 240fps really helped understanding the physics behind GD and makes me wonder: How would the Click-Between-Frames mod affect the demonlist or this matter in general? And how accurate is the att count of each person to decide the difficulty of a level (eg. Zoink had ½ att on Avernus compared to Acheron, yet Avernus is higher on the list, etc)?
Nevertheless, I really love your video. Straightforward, structured and nice to listen. You are really underrated!
Banger video as usual, now I can stop explaining to everyone and just send this video.
also 2:10 is my comment lol, just wanted to point out how absurd Tidal Wave’s frame perfect number is
Usually I'm the one getting told this by others but seriously why do I see you in every corner of GD content 😭😭
@@imarandomperson761 *I am inevitable*
I came across this comment at 2:11
common alex banger
also if there was a way to calculate the average frame window for each click on a level @ 240 fps, would it theoretically be a much better way to TRY to objectively determine a level's difficulty? It would take much more work but at the same time it might be more effective
@@3ja_e if you calculate the frame window for every click this would definitely be better at objectifying difficulty, alongside taking into consideration the amount of precise timings compared to level length (density). this still absolutely cannot be used as a difficulty measurement, but it's much better
This is actually such a great video. You explained the FPS discrepancies soo well, that visualizer made it all click for me. Hope to see more from you. xx
I love you xempir
this was always in my mind. level difficulty depends on 3 things:
1. amount of clicks and its paterns
2. hardness of those clicks
3. time needed to learn the level
and because you cant say which is more important, difficulty is a subjective made out of objective lol
And also lenght and the gamemods.Longer levels take a lot of control on ur mind and a variety of gamemodes needs u to be good at each one of them
@@MutuAdrian335 any other gamemode doesn't require special keys, you just click and release and hold. understanding and predicting where to click is subjected to the third point and the lenght of the level to the first. with 2.2, there a fourth one - randomness. needless to explain
this video is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING
it covers pretty much every aspect of this topic and i've been waiting for someone to make a clear, concise, summary of it all in video format and i guess my wish finally came true :D
as someone that's going for sinister silence on mobile 60hz i'm really glad that this video was made because it shows people that a levels difficulty can't solely be judged by the number of frame perfects it has, there are many other facotrs which affect it such as the decoration, click patters and endurance, which were all menitoned in the video. i just wanna say thanks again for creating this masterpiece of a video c:
damn good luck on Sinister Silence
@@exiled_shadegd ty bro
good explanation, love your vids lately
thank you for making a video for this! i've never managed to explain it well to others but this is summarized very well!
Finally a good video explaining this, great job you have crazy potential
Amazing work!!! Its a simple yer efective explanation on how frame perfects actually work. I hope this video reaches all the comunity, its actually an interesting matter
Anyways, I think that the frame perfects are going to get more irrelevant with the Clicks Between Frames mod, that has literally the purpose of fixing that issue
You explained everything so well! Great video!
Amazing video, honestly. Good topic and points and even better execution. The point was communicated very clearly
This is the definition of a "Sea of frame perfects". #2
Look at 2:05
My goat
Riots got this
hey look mine’s right under your’s, neighboring comments
self plug is wild
awesome video, ive been hit with this misconception from other people a few times and it's always confused me how people can just ignore all of the other factors (especially things being potentially easier on 60fps depending on the gap's alignment)
This is the exact reason why I think tidal wave is easier than acheron even Wpopoff in his video wondered if it is actually more difficult than acheron and Trick said that with acheron it was one of the worst experiences of his life. And it took him a long time to beat it and with tidal wave it didn’t take long and even he enjoy playing it.
I think that even the top players are getting carried away by the fact that it has 200 60hz frame perfects.
But what do I know?
Bad experience does not mean a level is harder. It can mean that the player got extremely unlucky with it, the level is just bad, the player was extremely stressed when beating it, etc. The only credible opinions for Tidal Wave are from Trick, wPopoff, and Zoink. All three of them say its top 1. wPopoff says that acheron MIGHT be harder, but he still thinks that Tidal Wave is probably harder. It's also worth noting that wPopoff was by far the luckiest victor with only 1 death past 80% and less than 50 beach attempts.
All three of these players also beat Tidal Wave way later than Acheron or any other top 1, which means that they most likely improved a decent amount since then. It's just ridiculous to assume that Tidal Wave wouldn't be top 1.
But what should define difficulty in the first place? For example: Acheron is more 'general' with many different gamemodes being used and has a more relentless type of gameplay. Tidal Wave is specialized in wave-based gameplay and relies on precision. LIMBO's difficulty is less straightforward, decided on how good you can remember/memorize plus some timings. Ship/Spam challenges relies on relentless, controlled clicks per minute. And then Codependence is 2-player and relies on use of both hands.
It's like asking "Is it harder to become a professional chess player or cyclist?" they are just very different. But you could see if one's harder if Tidal Wave's specialized gameplay has much, MUCH more precise timings which tip the scale over Acheron's relentless nature. Question for me is "When"?
Their judgements have nothing to do with the fact that there are 200 60fps frame perfects. It just shows how inaccurate the measurement is.
@@Vivek-io3gj yeah And I’m sure that most frame perfects are so open that they’re barely 60hz frame perfects that’s why the moderators said that the level was much easier at 360hz
ok, try get 5% on acheron then get 5% on tidal wave
PERFECT video dude
been trying to explain this for months to people but this video explains it 10x better, will definitely be guiding people to this
frame perfects are a good thing to know about difficulty, but its never the main focus of judging difficulty.
some other things that may make a level difficulty is
high cps that often needs to be controlled (such as kyouki or poocubed), awkward gameplay (AoD), length (Tidal Wave), Memory (Limbo, EiTW) and its consistency these aren’t everything but always something you should keep notes of, just like frame perfects, they aren’t everything but it is always a good thing to keep track of to determine how hard a level is.
Hard ships like in MINUSdry or Eyes in the Water and Acheron also make a big difference
@@exiled_shadegdsome other things is wave (ToD, Sakupen Circles), balancing (Acheron as well), generally hard timings (Nullscapes, Heliopolis), gimmicks (LIMBO again), or other niche skill sets (for example, Minimum)
Very cool video! Honestly, I found your channel 2 weeks ago for your video "The most mysterious cheater". Your content is really good :D!
Finally a video that explains everything I've been curious about since I joined the community in the 2.2 update. It's interesting how playing at 60fps can sometimes, in rare cases, be advantageous.
"Acheron - #3 Demon"
That hit harder than it should have...
Yet again, another amazing video! Keep it up.
Oh man this is a good video. I’ve had the idea of making a video similar to this talking about how difficulty is really measured but this pretty much sums up everything I’ve thought about. It’s a bit silly that people take 60fps frame perfects so seriously when nobody even plays top levels on 60fps, but I’ve always thought the “FP counter” videos were just entertainment anyways. It’ll be interesting to see how CBF changes everything though
When I started playing GD and didn’t know how to say if a level is hard or not, I always searched for „[level name] frame perfect counter” and I based it on that. Thats why for a long time I thought that level like shardscapes is harder than zodiac, the golden etc. After some time I started to realize that it is not true at all and frame perfects aren’t that good to measure difficulty. I also noticed that cuz I have experience with those levels. (I’m a shardscapes victor myself and it took me 23k attempts and I’m also going for Zodiac rn and I already have 56k attempts and only 72%). I hope there was a video like that when I started playing the game and would not think that it is good method for like 6 months. Excellent video!
there are a lot of factors that go into determining a level's difficulty. of course, more frame perfects generally mean it's harder, but there's other factors too, such as the level's length, decoration obscuring gameplay, time to react to an input, the timings of every input in the level, and plenty more.
thank you so much for covering this, i tried to explain this to someone ages ago in the gd discord and well, its the gd discord. its impossible to explain anything
Your content is amazing, please keep making more
your videos are genuinely amazing
Sometimes 240fps frame perfects can be more consistent than 60fps frame perfects, an example of that is one of the timings in my level Infernochasm, many of my friends are like "how do you get consistent at this" but the particular placement of the timing makes it very doable with enough practice.
Ah yes I wonder who one of those friends who asks you that is. Stilll seems insane to my how good you are at timings
I'm so glad a video exists explaining all this stuff, it's genuinely absurd how many times people try judge difficulty based on 60fps frame perfects
I'm glad you made this video - There's a lot of newer players floating around these days that write levels off / overhype levels based on stats like this. At the end of the day, I just don't believe there is a possible way to "objectively" measure the difficulty of a level, and quantify it against others... let alone make an objective list that ranks things perfectly.
There's simply too much variation - ship, UFO, multi-orb sections, swingcopter etc. have each of their timings change due to their physics, resulting in those gamemodes being more a *chain* of clicks that rely on each click being executed well and on the fly for the player to not die. Take a look at Sunset Sandstorm's 9% orange orb. Even though that timing is easy on its own, the hard part is aligning your cube in the right spot to even be ABLE to hit that timing - and that all depends on if you hit the green orb and the MANY pink orbs before it in the right rhythm.
I think the demon list, whilst useful, has given far too many people in this community an unwavering confidence when it comes to "objectively" judging the difficulty of stuff. Levels get upranked and deranked all the time, and oftentimes levels change difficulty placements not because we "later find out it was easy, actually" but rather that new hardware, new techniques, or a wider range of similar levels now exist that train players to play in the particular style that allows them to beat this old level. Super Probably Level got upranked so many times because people thought it was easier than it was.
It's why I have no idea why people think Ice Carbon Diablo X is an Insane Demon. I get that players got better but dude it literally helped CREATE the Extreme Demon difficulty!
Good video dude, thanks for informing the masses! I'm posting this to my community.
I can put a single 60fps frame perfect timing and it would have more frame perfects than a ten minute long 10 cps wave spam with 2 frames to do each input, but the one with the single frame perfect is clearly much easier.
Actually going by the frame perfect difficulty calculator, a single 60 fps frame perfect would be harder than an infinite level with infinite-frame frame perfects at 400x speed because there would be no 60 fps frame perfect.
only bangers songs were used, very good video and explanation thx bro
Great video, I learned many new things!
Also adding to the addition of the level deco, audio really could make a difference in a levels difficulty. I don't know if there's any fps in these levels, but if you came across a frame perfect in trollmachine or agite, it wouldn't be as hard as a frame perfect in a level like sakupen circles or silent clubstep.
the quality of this video is THROUGH THE ROOF OH MY GOD DUDE! amazing work!
Very good video! I learned a lot from this.
Very interesting video. I haven't really thought about this but it all makes sense
Holy shit amazing video dude keep em coming
level difficulty has a lot of things going on
each click has its context which can be anything, like a blind jump, sync, time since last input
the level length could technically be calculated by using the triangular number pattern ((t^2+t)/2), but even then balancing can make it so much different, like a level usually will be harder when the 2nd half is harder rather than the 1st one since it takes more time to get to the hard part and hard parts tend to use up more attempts
then there are also non-fp clicks that can still add to the difficulty, like you might have 2-3 frame window but it's so insanely fast that you have to get the pattern down
This is the best example of something ive tried explaining to people for ages thanks so much for making this video bro
this made me think of when cursed did 40--100 on solar flare, a run with 69!? 60fps frame perfects, in like 300 attempts
also not sure why i watched the whole video, i already know all this lol
your username is so good i love it
finally, this really needed to be said. I absolutely HATE how frame perfects are seen as this "extremely hard timing only seen in top extreme demons" when thats literally not the case at all. A quad is considered very hard and inconsistent due to "being a frame perfect", but you know what else is also a 60hz frame perfect, just like a regular quad? The first jump of Ice Carbon Diablo X (you can even prove this yourself). The level Switchblade by twoots has 3 frame perfects near the very end, yet thats generally agreed upon to be an insane demon (albeit a higher end one). Stabber by desticy is a hard demon with a frame perfect near the start, yet that level is never even talked about as a "difficult hard demon". Ice Cream by Cyclic is another insane demon with a frame perfect near the very end, yet that click is *not even CONSIDERED the hardest part* because earlier in the level there is an orb cluster that is considered WAY harder due to being setup based (basically how youre supposed to pull off the double click is completely dependent on whether you enter it early, right in the middle or late), and also obviously being a completely blind timing. There are so many cases of this out in the wild, its genuinely baffling that people still use this as some sort of marker for "supremely extremely impossible timing", when you can legitimately make a timing about as hard as a 60hz frame perfect by literally chucking a triple spike and putting a mirror portal behind it (effectively making it complete guesswork when you need to click)
Hey so regarding the section where you explain how some timings can be harder on higher fps, I actually had the exact same thought about that "click between the frames" mod. Wouldn't that mod also make some timings a lot harder since it removes the massive "safety net" that playing with standard "snap click to next frame" mechanics provides? Could be that I'm misunderstanding how that mod works though.
Wow dude! This is way more better to understand than kugel's vid, I onky trally understanded bits of kugel's vid but wow! This really did make me unserstand it properly.
Yeah although I did watch Kugel’s video, it had learned about how frame perfects work with my own knowledge and common sense
great video. one of the best GD video essays i’ve seen
Once again, an incredible video 👍
this is such a good and well made video good job
What r ur thoughts on taking 240fps physics and ranking timings based on amount of miliseconds u have to complete it. then some calculation factor for amount of timings and then having a pretty good ranking from there. Still doesnt take deco into account so not 100%, but would definitely be cool to see. Cant tell level difficulty by myself even from beating hard levels like sakupen circles and fw.
8:07 got a custom car ad right after you said that 😂
Thanks for the great visuals
That is a really good way to show how frames work!
I’ve never considered frame perfects a measure of a levels difficulty (other than tidal waves 200), just an interesting statistic to see. I guess that’s only bc I play the game, I could see how new players wouldn’t pick up on this.
Just like the phrase “Don’t shoot the messanger”, Letim is just showing the data in an unbiased way and shouldn’t be harassed for this
Actually he literally says to not use it for measuring difficulty many times, so biased towards the positive
finally someone talking about this, ive always hated these comparisons with a passion
this deserves way more views very entertaining video
thanks for making a video about this! i see a lot people saying x level is harder than y because it has more fp
I've got an idea of how to make this system more accurate!
Count how many available ticks are allowed on 360 fps without dying for an individual click and take the inverse of that and add it to the total, this allows longer levels to be more difficult, and accounts for some clicks being the same difficulty on 60 fps but harder on 240 fps. Then, just rank it based off the total value given. It's at least slightly better than whatever that guy did. Also, if there is a 0 frame window, the inverse of zero is undefined, and guess what. That level is impossible, and that is accurate. However, this does not account for memory, or you know, bad visibility, or speed changes, but it is still decent.
I'd also like to note that, (Hypothetically) if you had a level with a 50 frame window on 360 fps 36000 times, which means probably once every second, pretty much, that level would be worth 720 360 fps frame perfects, which makes sense as first of all, the level is TEN HOURS long, and second of all, that timing is quite tight for a ten hour level.
i am now wellversed on my frame perfect knowledge, thank you alex.
Finally someone explained it. But I do feel the need to mention that 60fps frame perfects aren’t even an objective measurement. It can vary extremely with alignment, for example in a diagonal wave corridor with a gravity change portal, where your previous inout determines how hard the next timing will be.
input*
I haven't touched GD since 2017. This was nice to watch. Back then, 144hz monitors and 75hz monitors were THE controversy
This is such an important Video🙏. Btw sakupen hell has around the Same amount of 60hz frameperfects as kyouki😂
Probably the best visualisation I've seen
6:07 What texture pack are you using on the right?
awesome video bud I never knew frame perfects were that odd
alex dropped a new banger? 🔥🔥
I think by extension how we actually determine difficulty of levels is why I dislike the ranking of impossible levels. The human experience is absolutely needed to understand the difficulty of a level. Of course you can rank how hard it is to bot them and whatnot but you can't really determine how "difficult" a level is if a player can't even come close to beating it ever. This is probably the reason we see the ILL rankings be completely off to the demonlist rankings once levels are verified.
thanks for educating people on this lol its annoying when people have no idea what theyre talking abtr
amazing video!
4:26 just wait till they hear about frame alignment on 60 hz…
I understand that the flashing lights and obscuring decorations make these levels harder, but I'd much rather watch someone play Solar Flare instead of 99% of other super hard demons lmao. It looks so much nicer imo. I can't stand the constant strobe lights and half the screen being covered or everything being extremely dark, it always just looks messy to me. Also, side tangent, I hate when there's a bit of a level where it's just a random guess what you're supposed to do. I had someone try to tell me that it's actually good cuz it makes it harder, but it really isn't any harder once you know what to do. Feels like a cheap "gotcha" that immediately looses effect when you know what to do because you'll never fall for it again unless you mess up, in which case it's just like any other obstacle. Sorry for the rant lol
Nah Solar flare is fuckin goated I agree
@@aiapihud4344agreed
Amazing video, thanks for sharing
Oh your the fp counter guy
@@tmtsps12indeed
good video, finally explained my dumb brain what alignment is in gd (i knew every other resion but it's good for people who did't)
Wait until you hear about xposition and yposition alignment :)))))
@@Locked101 i do under stand what xposition and yposition is, and now i know what alignment is in gd, imma imagine that it is just alignment in left, right, up, down form
@@aryanrajanand1 yeah but things like speed portals and things called snap bugs affect xpos alignment and just about everything affects ypos alignment
7:40
*Kyouki has moved down 60 spots*
those youtubers who make frame perfect videos are great for fun watching but i wish they would also include 2 frame clicks and maybe even more. it would make ship parts probably more intresting to watch.
you have just saved hundreds of speedrun comment sections i cannot thank you enough
For reference, dystopia has around 78 frame perfects and is harder than azure flare, tidal wave has 200+ and is maybe half of the difficulty of dystopia
thank god you made this video its so annoying when kids on tiktok think one level is harder then another because of a fp counter. my name is also alex btw
There is an easier way of debunking this misconception. Imagine 2 levels: the first one has a single mini cube x0.5 speed double spike jump, that is just a 1 60 fps frame perfect, and second one has 10 hours of one block tight straight fly with no frame perfects. Which level is harder? Obviously, it's the second level, but judging by the number of frame perfects the first one is harder.
This is why I avoid making levels with frame perfects. It's just bad gameplay imo. Its frustrating, unfair, gatekeeps fps's, and is in general hard to test and isolate for specific framerates.
if they are directly basing levels only on the frame perfects then yes but if it is the last thing considered for example if they analyze and play the level then when nothing else to decide the use frame perfects that thats totally fine but if this decision is anywhere else in the process it just becomes atrocious and puts levels in the wrong spots.
Very well made vid
Some really nerdy talk, Well done
great video, hopefully more people see this
I hope this goes viral
Finaly a good vid that explains that
Finally, someone is talking about this!
What's the name of the song at the very end?
look at description
I have yet to see a demon that uses only frame perfect jumps.
Bonus points if they're extra hard by making it entirely invisible, making it so that you have to beat the level twice in a row to verify it, and putting completely random elements in there to fuck with the players.
That sounds terrible
oymyakon
maybe it's because it's a shitty idea.
This is gonna be a good video