You missed quoting Charles Grants most important advice. ''Choose an army you can love even when it loses''. That is so you don't army hop to find the 'perfect' army for wargaming (everyone knows it's Persians, whether it's Achaemenids or Sassanian).
That's why i always play the Guard in 40k: I treat every game as an opportunity to flex my Colonel Melchett impression, and not only am I fully prepared to see my brave lads and lasses get utterly in the most horrific, stomach-churning, bowel-loosening ways, I DEMAND it. And if, by some outrageous miracle, they happen to win, then clearly it's tea and medals all round!
This is true. I played and collected early war Spanish for napoleons battles for years and had a great time. True to history I very very very rarely won.
Something to consider as well: pick a game for which you can find playing partners. The wide range of games available nowadays (not just historicals) can be a curse and a blessing. Quite often we have 6 or 7 tables busy on a games night at the club with the same amount of different rule sets being played. Makes finding a buddy for an evening sometimes challenging. And if you are moving away from GW as a group: try to find common ground before investing.
Great video. My caveat to people who are trying to offer advice would be "Don't assume players coming from Warhammer are going to want a Warhammer like experience". I came from Warhammer (though in the 90s) and one of the draws for me was games that felt completely new and exciting in how they approached things.
Interesting question Lee. I went exclusively 15mm about 25 years ago and the deciding factor was storage, particularly of terrain. So when I start to consider getting into a new ruleset or period, my first logical question is how much of my existing terrain can I use or adapt. And then the second logical question is one of army storage. Before all that, there is the inevitable emotional quesiton of whether I feel a period or a ruleset is going to be fun and personally interesting.
Similar here, although I went with 1/72 due to wider range and easier availability. I use my WW2 figures for both Chain of Command & OGroup, and my Napoleonics for both Sharp Practice and General D'armee. As you say, this saves duplicating armies and terrain in a bunch of different scales, this easing burden on time & money.
Yet another great episode Lee!! Always brightens my Sunday! Possibly for introducing ex-GW players to the glory of historical gaming, I'd suggest Warlord rules and epic boxes .. yes I know the rules are far from perfect, BUT Rick Priestley's style of rule writing will be familiar to GW players. Once they've got used to ebbs and flows then onto others.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV- Definitely! If starting again with historical I would go for Epic scale (about 13mm). Great for getting those big battalions on the table within weeks rather than years!
If you can't find historical players you can make your own if you have sci-fi/fantasy gaming friends. There are fun games with very low page counts (less than ~20, some just a page or two) that require few models. You can, if necessary, learn the rules, produce the figures and train your buddies yourself without major time/money expenditures. Ravenfeast is a good example as are many of the Osprey games, plus countless others on Wargame Vault and similar.
Good thought provoking video as always Lee. I would add one other consideration however that applies to those of us who aren't solo gamers, and that's to pick a rule set and scale where there are already some local players in your area. So checking out the local club or posting on the face book group or forum for the rule set you have in mind is a good way to check this out before you invest time and money.
I would heartily recommend looking at the Osprey "blue book" range of wargame rules. Various historical periods and they make a great intro without having to know too much about them. (Plus they do have some scifi/fantasy titles you can use your Warhammer models for and not have to Ebay them all!)
My personal favorites from that series are Dux Bellorum, Lion Rampant, and Dragon Rampant (for a bit of fantasy). The 2nd edition of Lion Rampant is a more posh hardcover, like the Frost Grave/Ghost Archipelago/Stargrave series, also good games if you need a fantasy/SF skirmish.
Good summary, you actually said everything important. From my experience, former GW players especially miss army lists and points. Yes, you can play without something like that. 😅 Historical rules are so cheap in comparison that you can try out two or three without incurring high costs. In GW you change armies, and here you change the rules system every now and then. And always... always build up the opposing army at the same time. It increases flexibility and you can find other players or test rules more quickly. Happy Pentecost and have fun at Partisan!
That is very true and has been my experience with former GW players coming into historical gaming. They feel you need points values and super game winning lists when in reality historical battles were seldom if ever on an even playing field. I've seen a number of them become tourists in historical gaming and then leave just as fast as they arrived when they realized no super armies and no tricks to break the rules.
@@nordicmaelstrom4714 Sad, but true. GW formed "competition through loopholes" players. But I also know players who turned their backs on GW when their armies became overwhelming. It was no longer a challenge.
@@totalburnout5424 That is the absolute worst experience. That is gaming with rules lawyers and loophole players. I've never seen GW players quit because of that but I have seen some rage quit because their army got ruined with codex changes. I quit playing their stuff all together when they ended Warhammer Fantasy Battle and I refuse to get into the Old World. They lost me as a consumer for good.
I think the main change for Warhammer players has to be the flexibility of Historical periods. No company to tell you you've painted the wrong miniatures, or used the wrong rules. You can buy what you want, from a range of companies and if you want to change the rules, or base an army differently...you can! A revelation to some players.
Hi all, Coupla add-on thoughts about starting historicals; 1; local networks, are there any other historical gamers or groups in your area, and, if so, what period/scale//rulesets do they use? Not that you should let other people's preferences dictate your own choices, but it is much easier to start up if you don't have to assemble two opposing forces. 2; 1/72 is worth remembering as a scale. Readily available in mainstream toystores, versatile for both skirmish and larger battles, and a huge range of available figures and vehicles.
Interesting to hear Rich of the TooFatLardies mention recently that the ideal scale for Chain of Command was 1/72 aka 20mm. The groundscale for CoC is technically perfect for 15mm, but I find it just too small to view the figures as individuals rather than tokens. 28mm on the other hand requires huge buildings and trees that defeat my capacity for storage space. 20mm also works fine for that other great TFL ruleset O Group, which is impractical with 28mm.
As alwyøays a great video. When I demo a historical I always go for another scale then 28-32mm often 15 or 10mm, seems to get people more interested with the smaller minis and larger scales of battles.
Great advice here Lee for the WH switcher. The right period is the key. There's figures and rules for everything now so choose a period that enthralls and everything else follows. And try not to follow the latest shiny thing. Do what you like.
And plan to build two forces, so you can talk someone else into playing without asking them to build their own force. You can choose appropriate rules to the size of units you want; in some periods (e.g. Dark Ages or Medieval) most of the figures would look the same, so two skirmish forces can be combined into a larger force when you *do* find someone else with their own troops.
There are games that are very similar to Warhammer that may be an easy gateway, but may not move the novice out of their comfort zone. Give them one of the old classic Wargames books for a start. Simple games and mechanisms are best. Of course, it depends whether they are playing in a regular group or by themselves.
I think that you pretty much covered the topic, the only suggestion I would add is to, before making final answers to your three questions, the newbie should have a shortlist for each and then look online for AAR, reviews and battle reports of each of the options. This will probably signpost the answers. Then proceed as you indicated. There's one other thing that drew my attention as you showed us your buildings... You're probably aware that Peter Berry at Baccus6mm has just launched Teeny Tiny Terrain. I wonder what are your thoughts on this very different way to represent built up areas on a 6mm battlefield? Will you be reviewing this new range? I can see it being very useful in many battles but less so in others, but will almost certainly be using the models for Fredericksburg, and Aspern Essling as well as others where towns, villages etc were contested and defended at brigade level, but sticking with the larger '6mm sized' pieces for farmsteads etc that were fought around such as the church at Shiloh and the Henry House at both Bull Runs. You?
Thank you for sharing. Since you brought it up, how about a discussion about scale. As a young lad, late 50s atm, we always measured from bottom of foot to top of head, same as any doctor or ID process. It is my understanding that today they measure from bottom of foot to eye level, some do both, and use this to conflate scales. I still can't get my head around the modeler I met who said, that 1/56 is 28mm. That is like saying 2+2=5 to my brain.
Another first question might be are you a competitive wargamer and do you want to continue playing tournaments as that’s going to narrow the choice a lot. Nice to see you yesterday
One of the most important questions to ask yourself , is what you liked about warhammer/ age of s igmar . Then look for that in historical periods and sets of rules .
I suspect what most people like is collecting and painting the minis, and maybe the lore. The rules themselves suck badly - overcomplicated, overpriced and giving a very mediocre gameplay experience.
I am def headed back into historical, and in all honesty, historical rules can be changed into fantasy very easily. I am also keener on bigger, sweeping battles. 28MM Skirmish, games I am well over.
Keep your eyes peeled for the new Midgard rules for heroic warfare due out later this year. They should be perfect for mixing historical with fantasy, but can be played as an entirely historical set for Medieval and earlier periods.
I feel the biggest piece of advice to people coming over from GW games is historical gaming is NOT meant to be approached in the same way. There are no super armies or game winning army lists. While there are definitely rule sets that cater to that crowd who need points values and army lists but that is not the point of historical gaming. You should be setting out to recreate history and history is seldom fair or even. You will need to do your research into the uniforms, the equipment, flags, army compositions and a whole slew of other things that is not present in the GW sphere. I would also caution against toolbox games from Warlord Games as they do not properly cover the distinct historical periods very well. I have found that avoiding those historical games aimed at 40k players is a better road into the hobby. You're not playing 40k you are playing historical gaming so there is a huge difference. Also do not be afraid to reach out to people in the know about uniforms or weapons etc of a specific period. Most historical gamers I have encountered will happily share tips and tricks and information. I would also strongly suggest not coming into historical gaming with the mindset of a certain TH-camr who thinks just because you may paint or play ww2 Germans that you are in fact a yatzi. Leave that sort of garbage where it belongs and that is in the bin. Also try to find a few rule sets that have similar style basing to be able to play them all. Biggest tip is simply enjoy the wonders that is historical gaming.
Generally agree, but you’d be wrong to say there are no “super armies” in historical gaming. WW2 German pioneers are just one of them in Bolt Action. Many players still go out of their way to maximise the fighting power of their troops on the table top rather than stick to the strictly historical orbats.
@@sirrathersplendid4825 There are elite units and elite formations in history but there are no super armies. That is a game design and a rather poorly designed one at that. Its why bolt action is a rather shoddy game in my opinion.
@@sirrathersplendid4825 German pioneers fall into the elite unit category but historical armies are not made up entirely of elite units. I tried Bolt Action a few times and while the mechanics are fine the utter absurdity of the troop composition makes it unplayable for anyone with any understanding of ww2.
I still collect warhammer; that said i think the Warlord games are an easy intro. 28mm, plastic minis, d6 based and very new player friendly, and lots of stuff fo many periods.
@@toomaskotkas4467 So how many players have left and why do you believe it is over females custodes and not price rises, model discontinuing, detail oversaturation or inability to produce enough stock due to operating from one factory?
@@filipmaly6603How many players have left the GW will find out at the next financial report. As for the reasons why people live GW, the constant price hike is indeed one of the main reasons. Now add to that the idea of complete lore overhaul at any time just because GW caters to the political agenda and the number of people who would pay higher prices because they liked the lore will also be decreasing.
Have to admit that it proved impossible to get into historical. Hard to find players, harder still to get agreement on rules or figure size. In my area London there are more people playing Warhammer than historical by a huge margin. My fantasy dwarf has seen dozens of battles. My 28mm renaissance poles sat unused for years as no one wanted to play that period in 28. I ended up retiring from historical
No. At the moment Im pretty much booked solid with A Song of fire and ice, lots of players. No trouble finding games. Historical is fragmented by scale, rules period and rules
As the lost soul in question, thank you very much for being the focus and definitely giving some thoughts to ponder over. Much appreciated.
You missed quoting Charles Grants most important advice. ''Choose an army you can love even when it loses''. That is so you don't army hop to find the 'perfect' army for wargaming (everyone knows it's Persians, whether it's Achaemenids or Sassanian).
That's a good quote. 👍🏻
That's why i always play the Guard in 40k: I treat every game as an opportunity to flex my Colonel Melchett impression, and not only am I fully prepared to see my brave lads and lasses get utterly in the most horrific, stomach-churning, bowel-loosening ways, I DEMAND it.
And if, by some outrageous miracle, they happen to win, then clearly it's tea and medals all round!
You can get ahead by picking an army that lost historically so you will feel great when you win and okay if they perform historically :)
@@IvanSorensen A good idea, I've always had a soft spot for underdogs. 🫡
This is true. I played and collected early war Spanish for napoleons battles for years and had a great time. True to history I very very very rarely won.
Something to consider as well: pick a game for which you can find playing partners. The wide range of games available nowadays (not just historicals) can be a curse and a blessing. Quite often we have 6 or 7 tables busy on a games night at the club with the same amount of different rule sets being played. Makes finding a buddy for an evening sometimes challenging. And if you are moving away from GW as a group: try to find common ground before investing.
Great video. My caveat to people who are trying to offer advice would be "Don't assume players coming from Warhammer are going to want a Warhammer like experience". I came from Warhammer (though in the 90s) and one of the draws for me was games that felt completely new and exciting in how they approached things.
Good point. If the Warhammer player is looking for something new then give them something new.
Interesting question Lee. I went exclusively 15mm about 25 years ago and the deciding factor was storage, particularly of terrain. So when I start to consider getting into a new ruleset or period, my first logical question is how much of my existing terrain can I use or adapt. And then the second logical question is one of army storage. Before all that, there is the inevitable emotional quesiton of whether I feel a period or a ruleset is going to be fun and personally interesting.
Similar here, although I went with 1/72 due to wider range and easier availability.
I use my WW2 figures for both Chain of Command & OGroup, and my Napoleonics for both Sharp Practice and General D'armee.
As you say, this saves duplicating armies and terrain in a bunch of different scales, this easing burden on time & money.
Great advice, surprising how often these questions are asked at shows and by visitors to the club, often the answers can cause more confusion
There is a lot to choose from, and inevitably I'm simplifying the questions. But its a starting point at least.
Yet another great episode Lee!! Always brightens my Sunday! Possibly for introducing ex-GW players to the glory of historical gaming, I'd suggest Warlord rules and epic boxes .. yes I know the rules are far from perfect, BUT Rick Priestley's style of rule writing will be familiar to GW players. Once they've got used to ebbs and flows then onto others.
I was looking at the Epic starter boxes at Partizan... so tempted! They look like a great way to get started relatively quickly.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV once GW players see the price difference they’ll convert quickly!!
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV- Definitely! If starting again with historical I would go for Epic scale (about 13mm). Great for getting those big battalions on the table within weeks rather than years!
If you can't find historical players you can make your own if you have sci-fi/fantasy gaming friends. There are fun games with very low page counts (less than ~20, some just a page or two) that require few models. You can, if necessary, learn the rules, produce the figures and train your buddies yourself without major time/money expenditures. Ravenfeast is a good example as are many of the Osprey games, plus countless others on Wargame Vault and similar.
Good thought provoking video as always Lee. I would add one other consideration however that applies to those of us who aren't solo gamers, and that's to pick a rule set and scale where there are already some local players in your area. So checking out the local club or posting on the face book group or forum for the rule set you have in mind is a good way to check this out before you invest time and money.
I would heartily recommend looking at the Osprey "blue book" range of wargame rules. Various historical periods and they make a great intro without having to know too much about them. (Plus they do have some scifi/fantasy titles you can use your Warhammer models for and not have to Ebay them all!)
My personal favorites from that series are Dux Bellorum, Lion Rampant, and Dragon Rampant (for a bit of fantasy). The 2nd edition of Lion Rampant is a more posh hardcover, like the Frost Grave/Ghost Archipelago/Stargrave series, also good games if you need a fantasy/SF skirmish.
Good summary, you actually said everything important. From my experience, former GW players especially miss army lists and points. Yes, you can play without something like that. 😅
Historical rules are so cheap in comparison that you can try out two or three without incurring high costs.
In GW you change armies, and here you change the rules system every now and then. And always... always build up the opposing army at the same time. It increases flexibility and you can find other players or test rules more quickly.
Happy Pentecost and have fun at Partisan!
That is very true and has been my experience with former GW players coming into historical gaming. They feel you need points values and super game winning lists when in reality historical battles were seldom if ever on an even playing field. I've seen a number of them become tourists in historical gaming and then leave just as fast as they arrived when they realized no super armies and no tricks to break the rules.
@@nordicmaelstrom4714 Sad, but true. GW formed "competition through loopholes" players.
But I also know players who turned their backs on GW when their armies became overwhelming. It was no longer a challenge.
@@totalburnout5424 That is the absolute worst experience. That is gaming with rules lawyers and loophole players. I've never seen GW players quit because of that but I have seen some rage quit because their army got ruined with codex changes. I quit playing their stuff all together when they ended Warhammer Fantasy Battle and I refuse to get into the Old World. They lost me as a consumer for good.
@@nordicmaelstrom4714 So did I. ✊🏻
I think the main change for Warhammer players has to be the flexibility of Historical periods. No company to tell you you've painted the wrong miniatures, or used the wrong rules. You can buy what you want, from a range of companies and if you want to change the rules, or base an army differently...you can! A revelation to some players.
Collecting terrain for multiple different figure sizes can take up a lot of storage room. Trees, buildings, etc.
Hi all,
Coupla add-on thoughts about starting historicals;
1; local networks, are there any other historical gamers or groups in your area, and, if so, what period/scale//rulesets do they use?
Not that you should let other people's preferences dictate your own choices, but it is much easier to start up if you don't have to assemble two opposing forces.
2; 1/72 is worth remembering as a scale.
Readily available in mainstream toystores, versatile for both skirmish and larger battles, and a huge range of available figures and vehicles.
Interesting to hear Rich of the TooFatLardies mention recently that the ideal scale for Chain of Command was 1/72 aka 20mm. The groundscale for CoC is technically perfect for 15mm, but I find it just too small to view the figures as individuals rather than tokens. 28mm on the other hand requires huge buildings and trees that defeat my capacity for storage space. 20mm also works fine for that other great TFL ruleset O Group, which is impractical with 28mm.
As alwyøays a great video. When I demo a historical I always go for another scale then 28-32mm often 15 or 10mm, seems to get people more interested with the smaller minis and larger scales of battles.
Great advice here Lee for the WH switcher. The right period is the key. There's figures and rules for everything now so choose a period that enthralls and everything else follows. And try not to follow the latest shiny thing. Do what you like.
And plan to build two forces, so you can talk someone else into playing without asking them to build their own force. You can choose appropriate rules to the size of units you want; in some periods (e.g. Dark Ages or Medieval) most of the figures would look the same, so two skirmish forces can be combined into a larger force when you *do* find someone else with their own troops.
There are games that are very similar to Warhammer that may be an easy gateway, but may not move the novice out of their comfort zone. Give them one of the old classic Wargames books for a start. Simple games and mechanisms are best. Of course, it depends whether they are playing in a regular group or by themselves.
I think that you pretty much covered the topic, the only suggestion I would add is to, before making final answers to your three questions, the newbie should have a shortlist for each and then look online for AAR, reviews and battle reports of each of the options. This will probably signpost the answers. Then proceed as you indicated.
There's one other thing that drew my attention as you showed us your buildings... You're probably aware that Peter Berry at Baccus6mm has just launched Teeny Tiny Terrain. I wonder what are your thoughts on this very different way to represent built up areas on a 6mm battlefield? Will you be reviewing this new range? I can see it being very useful in many battles but less so in others, but will almost certainly be using the models for Fredericksburg, and Aspern Essling as well as others where towns, villages etc were contested and defended at brigade level, but sticking with the larger '6mm sized' pieces for farmsteads etc that were fought around such as the church at Shiloh and the Henry House at both Bull Runs. You?
I love them. I have painted some 2mm stuff for towns for use with my 6mm figures, so not a million miles away from this idea.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV
Do I sense an order to Baccus in your near future? 🤣
@davidbenton8775 maaybeee 🤣
Thank you for sharing.
Since you brought it up, how about a discussion about scale.
As a young lad, late 50s atm, we always measured from bottom of foot to top of head, same as any doctor or ID process.
It is my understanding that today they measure from bottom of foot to eye level, some do both, and use this to conflate scales.
I still can't get my head around the modeler I met who said, that 1/56 is 28mm. That is like saying 2+2=5 to my brain.
Oooo that's a can-o-worms for sure. But one I am willing to pry open! I'll give it some thought and see what I can come up with.
Another first question might be are you a competitive wargamer and do you want to continue playing tournaments as that’s going to narrow the choice a lot. Nice to see you yesterday
Likewise. I had a great day. I measure show success by how sore my throat is by the end of the day. Yesterday was a real croaker 🤣
One of the most important questions to ask yourself , is what you liked about warhammer/ age of s igmar . Then look for that in historical periods and sets of rules .
I suspect what most people like is collecting and painting the minis, and maybe the lore. The rules themselves suck badly - overcomplicated, overpriced and giving a very mediocre gameplay experience.
I am def headed back into historical, and in all honesty, historical rules can be changed into fantasy very easily. I am also keener on bigger, sweeping battles. 28MM Skirmish, games I am well over.
Keep your eyes peeled for the new Midgard rules for heroic warfare due out later this year. They should be perfect for mixing historical with fantasy, but can be played as an entirely historical set for Medieval and earlier periods.
I feel the biggest piece of advice to people coming over from GW games is historical gaming is NOT meant to be approached in the same way. There are no super armies or game winning army lists. While there are definitely rule sets that cater to that crowd who need points values and army lists but that is not the point of historical gaming. You should be setting out to recreate history and history is seldom fair or even. You will need to do your research into the uniforms, the equipment, flags, army compositions and a whole slew of other things that is not present in the GW sphere. I would also caution against toolbox games from Warlord Games as they do not properly cover the distinct historical periods very well. I have found that avoiding those historical games aimed at 40k players is a better road into the hobby. You're not playing 40k you are playing historical gaming so there is a huge difference. Also do not be afraid to reach out to people in the know about uniforms or weapons etc of a specific period. Most historical gamers I have encountered will happily share tips and tricks and information. I would also strongly suggest not coming into historical gaming with the mindset of a certain TH-camr who thinks just because you may paint or play ww2 Germans that you are in fact a yatzi. Leave that sort of garbage where it belongs and that is in the bin. Also try to find a few rule sets that have similar style basing to be able to play them all. Biggest tip is simply enjoy the wonders that is historical gaming.
Generally agree, but you’d be wrong to say there are no “super armies” in historical gaming. WW2 German pioneers are just one of them in Bolt Action. Many players still go out of their way to maximise the fighting power of their troops on the table top rather than stick to the strictly historical orbats.
@@sirrathersplendid4825 There are elite units and elite formations in history but there are no super armies. That is a game design and a rather poorly designed one at that. Its why bolt action is a rather shoddy game in my opinion.
@@nordicmaelstrom4714 - Well, German pioneers are considered “game-winning” by many. Fully agree with you about Bolt Action. Not my cup of tea either.
@@sirrathersplendid4825 German pioneers fall into the elite unit category but historical armies are not made up entirely of elite units. I tried Bolt Action a few times and while the mechanics are fine the utter absurdity of the troop composition makes it unplayable for anyone with any understanding of ww2.
I still collect warhammer; that said i think the Warlord games are an easy intro. 28mm, plastic minis, d6 based and very new player friendly, and lots of stuff fo many periods.
I recommend the wargame rules reviews on the Little Wars TV TH-cam channel.
Absolutely, they know their stuff.
Folks coming from warhammer need two words, Bolt and Action, they fill fit right in
True
54mm is and always has been the one true scale!!!!!
No. And it isn't 6mm either. It is 25mm. Everyone knows that these days
Recent anouncement from GW about the price rise might inspire a flux of fresh blood into historical or skirmish games. ;)
Why? I still like have two childrens and kidney to sold....
There is an exodus of some of the WH40K players after GW took a dump on it's own lore with the "female custodes".
@@toomaskotkas4467 So how many players have left and why do you believe it is over females custodes and not price rises, model discontinuing, detail oversaturation or inability to produce enough stock due to operating from one factory?
@@filipmaly6603How many players have left the GW will find out at the next financial report. As for the reasons why people live GW, the constant price hike is indeed one of the main reasons. Now add to that the idea of complete lore overhaul at any time just because GW caters to the political agenda and the number of people who would pay higher prices because they liked the lore will also be decreasing.
@@toomaskotkas4467 So you have nothing but feelings. Are you one of those dreaded SJW?
Have to admit that it proved impossible to get into historical. Hard to find players, harder still to get agreement on rules or figure size. In my area London there are more people playing Warhammer than historical by a huge margin. My fantasy dwarf has seen dozens of battles. My 28mm renaissance poles sat unused for years as no one wanted to play that period in 28. I ended up retiring from historical
That's a pity. Did you consider solo play as an option?
No. At the moment Im pretty much booked solid with A Song of fire and ice, lots of players. No trouble finding games. Historical is fragmented by scale, rules period and rules
Man if I didn’t quit when GW blew up my Warhammer Fantasy hobby I don’t think I’ll be leaving this side of death 💀 😂😂😂