Episode 91: Jonathan Pageau & Martin Shaw Part Two: Bob Dylan, Bishop Barron, the Grail, & Good Art
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ธ.ค. 2022
- Welcome to More Christ. We seek to bring some of the world's most interesting and insightful guests to discuss life's central and abiding questions.
In this ninety first episode in a series of discussions, I'm joined once more by Jonathan Pageau and Dr Martin Shaw.
Jonathan carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images. He also designs products, teaches, and makes fantastic videos for The Symbolic World that explore how ancient patterns can re-enchant our contemporary life.
Please check out Jonathan's channel:
/ jonathanpageau
Martin is regarded as one of the most outstanding new teachers of the mythic imagination. Visiting fellow at Schumacher college in the U.K., he has also devised and lead the Oral Tradition course at Stanford university in the U.S.
He is the author of the award winning; A Branch from The Lightning Tree, Snowy Tower, Scatterlings, Smoke Hole, and other classics. Martin now leads a bustling schedule of conferences, gatherings, and wilderness retreats over several continents.
You can see our first conversation, here:
• Episode 90: Jonathan P... Martin's website: drmartinshaw.com/
As a Dylan lover who's thought a lot about these questions of art... This is amazing. My sense has always been that great art is made at a distance from God because there's a sense that they're leaving bread crumbs to show the way back. So that any weary traveler, no matter how in the throws of sin and chaos they are, might see a road sign indicating that someone has been where they are before and made their way back.
That is the great draw of Caravaggio and Michelangelo’s unfinished Prisoners, amongst others.
please do another one with them, this was and is a infinitely valuable conversation
Thank you Gents! I love listening to you all and the way you speak about stories and Christianity :) I find it all absolutely fascinating! Thank you all again! And bless you in all your endeavours 😊
Art is our longing for the Garden and walking with God.
Great conversation, and I love the fact that you add pictures of book covers and relevant things to what is spoken about. Really adds to the visual aspect of the video!
“…you’re meant to be something quite specific.” Oh dear, yes.
The st Peter "get behind me Satan" parallel to Adam eating of the apple Just completely blew my mind into smithereens. It's all connected in meaningful ways. It's just too much to comprehend. I can't even believe this story exists and it was there all along
One of those rare female audiences here who likes to tiptoe on men's conversations ..... about life and myths and the ever magnetic character called Yeshua! Thank you all!
Glad to have you here! Hopefully, these conversations are for anyone with ears to hear. Thank you. :)
I feel the same tentativeness. So deeply compelled by this conversation, by Martin's insights in particular, but wondering where I as a woman fit into it. Women seem so peripheral, and yet I feel like the stories and this conversation touch me at my core.
I’ve always felt like I’m one of the few women gathering around these things-I’m not sure why-but you’re not alone!
44:00 that's some beautiful Covenant Theology right there!
I feel so deeply warmed and nourished by this wild conversation. So grateful to these guys !
So much to masticate on! Glory to God.
“So as soon as you’re actually open to longing, the return message has already begun, by the physical sensation in your chest.” - Martin Shaw
This is so reminiscent of a part in George MacDonald’s The Wise Woman…….
“Then all at once the princess perceived that she was left alone with the moon, looking down on her from the height of her loneliness. She was horribly frightened, and began to run after the wise woman, calling aloud. But the song she had just heard came back to the sound of her own running feet, and she screamed as she ran. How she wished she knew the old woman’s name, that she might call it after her through the moonlight!
But the wise woman had, in truth, heard the first sound of her running feet, and stopped and turned, waiting. What with running and crying, however, and a fall or two as she ran, the princess never saw her until she fell right into her arms…..”
This is very much the same sentiment of simultaneous reciprocity between the human and the Divine. I love this part so much.
I was wondering if this might be the Shari I know, then clicked on the comment and saw George Macdonald and confirmed my suspicions 😂❤️
What a great talk.
💕. Why did we stop reading the Arthur cycle stories to kids? There's so much in them!! I loved them as a child, and I am a foreigner. I wonder how much children in England know about these wonderful stories.
Just out of interest. Where are you or your parents from, since you call yourself a foreigner?
Such a beautiful brilliant musician
The concealment of the green garter is the concealment of our sins and ignorance as fallen men that are trying to give perfection to the world and fail. It's the fact that our passions probably won't be perfectly purified before we die, but that Christ is so merciful that He is willing to accept us regardless.
Love your little notations and book pictures that you put in the videos! Very helpful
Less than two minutes for Martin to mention the Grail... it will be good. Martin told me the second part was better. Off to a good start.
Look who I found a year later in the comments ❤️ you and Shari! I thought of you in the grail too
Wonderful!!
The theme of longing out of loss reminds me of the poet of the Wasteland who became the poet of the Four Quartets. “I said to my soul, be still and wait without hope, for hope would be hope for the wrong thing; wait without love, for love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith, but the faith and the love are all in the waiting.” This also resonates with the word Christ gave to St Silouan: “Keep they mind in hell, and despair not.” Interestingly, St Silouan’s spiritual son, St Soohrony of Essex was a modern artist in Paris before becoming a monk and iconographer.
Oh yes! Thanks for this!
Marion Woodman, who collaborated often with Robert Bly, wrote a shattering analysis on the feminine called Addicted to Perfection.
The belt seems to act something like a silver medal in King Arthur's court. Guane sees the belt and is reminded that he didn't fully succeed and "bring home the gold," so to speak. Arthur and his court see the belt as not evidence of failure, but of how far he went and of all the places he succeeded.
Such a wonderful interaction 🙂🙏
Good stuff.
Really enjoyed this one too! Thank you again.
I really enjoyed this and the first video! Glory be to God
Mark, thank you so much for recommending the David Cayley series on Rene Girard. I am almost through the series and it has opened up a new way of seeing things. Once you see memetic desire it seems to be everywhere.
Thanks for this. Some good book recommendations too. 👍🏻
Interesting that chivalry, the grail, and Corbin were mentioned but not together given Corbin's idea on the ecumenical chivalry of mysticism as related to knighthood and the Grail.
Enjoyed Martin's performance of the Green Knight at Benburb and now it's great to get to hear JP and him discuss in more detail.
John Lennon song imagine is what set it off for my conquest
Big BIG fan...thats it
6:00 I believe it's about keeping the fear of God at the forefront.
Sometimes, fearing the consequences of not throwing out the trash drives action in a way that loving the walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
15:35
I’m really glad he started talking about the green knight here (although I have only seen the movie, but I loved it). Lately, the story of Percival, the green knight, and George MacDonald’s Phantastes have all felt extremely similar and interconnected, and relatable.
The Green Knight movie is amazing but it completely reverses the meaning of the poem. For instance, the point of the poem is to do the best you can while recognizing it will never be enough. Try reading Simon Armitage's version, you will see what I mean.
To address the question about the predominance of men on TH-cam…I think the medium of talking heads appeals to the masculine tendency to seek meaning through information. To generalize I think women tend to seek meaning through experience, while men seek meaning through knowledge.
Regarding the Grail mystery, I recommend Joseph Campbell’s book on the Grail, which he calls the first great secular myth of the West.
43:43 ❤ 🔥 🤯
The Zohar tells that there is a lower world-our world-and there is a higher world.
Our world must continuously receive from that higher world. But how it receives depends upon our state of mind.
If we glow with joy and vitality, then that higher world as well shines upon us in full glory and abundance.
But if we wallow in depression and anxiety, then we can receive only the metered trickle that squeezes through such a constricted channel.
Depression, anxiety and pessimism-these all damage the channels of blessing from Above.
That is why King David said, “Serve G‑d with joy!” Because your joy here draws upon you another joy from above.
Rabbi Tzvi Freeman
Jung is not represented correctly but the rest was great
Etymology of the word desire is ‘of/from the stars’. It isn’t passion.
Desire and longing are synonyms.
Same question: Is there a list of the books referenced?
Great video! Marcus, I would love the opportunity to talk to you more about what your project. I can't find you contact info, however. Anyway we could connect?
The Grail is the Church.
Amen!
Not quite. The Grail has a shape of a chalice. So, it's actually the Body and Blood of Christ that Christians take at communion.
The grail is the Heart.
4:51 "It's the difference between longing and desire." The Buddha spoke against desire because it appeals to the ego story in our desires our views. Our fears is all mixed up in this ego story but when we speak of longing this is something different. This is not a short term ego desire what this is lying is wanting to see a better world for your children passing on wisdom to the next generation. A longing for a better way forward.
Robin Williams is that u?
Where can I find this beautiful music in the intro and outro??
Nyazura Mission Church Choir: Praise Him. (I am going there)
@@MoreChrist God bless! Thank you.
Great discussion. Thanks all three of you. Great to hear the great James Hillman get a mention. He has a lot to say about the imaginal th-cam.com/video/SE0u1GP_ffU/w-d-xo.html
The reference to Peter incredible but I still don’t understand why Jesus said ‘get behind me’. Seems to me that’s the last place you’d want to banish the devil to - where you can’t see what he’s at! I’d want to keep an eye of this trickster! You would seriously have to be sure of your divinity before issuing that command!
Was also at Benburb and fell under the spell of Gwain and Green Knight. It’s not a tale of ‘absolute’ morals and one I should love to tell to those poor soldiers who deserted the killing fields of the First World War, were caught court marshalled and shot at Dawn. Sometimes the stakes are wrong stakes and chivalry has its limits. That was my reading of it. That love and bravado are 2 different things.
Maybe he wants him out of the picture, where Christ can’t see him. That’s the point. An artist’s ruthless exclusion.
I concur regarding Hillman! I’ve often thought of him while listening to Jonathon
49:41 Men are seeking meaning. We need something more in life. Women have that just by their very nature. They effectively dont need to worry about these things because they know someone will take care of them. That someone loves them. that they are meaningful and valuable. Men dont have that. Not at all we dont have intrinsic value. We have to provide value. We need to prove we are meaningful and to do that we must find something that is truely valuable and embody that and give it to the world.
Gawain thinks he compromises between chastity, courtesy to the lady, and liege loyalty to Bertilak. But in reality, he compromises the truth. If even the fine Gawain fails, we too will fail and that is fine.
Tgis is bottomless