I was a church musician for a extremely long time and my experience is that as well as I’m a PK. All of the ministries I played for most of them large ministries I found that it was a two way street, the entire band had respect for the Pastor but he also respected us as musicians. Now that I’m a Pastor myself I make sure that that same respect is given to all the leaders in the ministry especially to the musicians that are my sons. It’s a two way street always, you only get what you give.
I agree that communication and trust has to be a two-way street. I’ve seen too many pastors that micromanage their worship team, and end up killing all enthusiasm for it because they cannot choose their own songs or style. If the pastor wants a specific style all the time, they should be prepared to lead the worship team themselves (and not complain when they are so busy doing everything that they don’t have time for their pastor duties)
In many cases there's too much emphasis placed on music and entertainment in many churches. People subtly are "worshipping" worship instead of worshipping God. They're worshipping the pastor, the ministry. feelings and emotions that are influenced by the mood of the music, lighting etc.. Music is nice to have but it shouldn't be something one "needs to have" in order to worship God.
@metalhead6526 It definitely continues to dwindle. As you know, if you happen to be a scholar of the bible who will share the word within the membership, the leadership will kick you out ASAP. 🦶
Man My Brutha! I am ecstatic that you're talking about this. The last Pastor I was under was my closest friend and worship leader at the church we once attended. He as Pastor demonstrated those 3 things you talked about. As worship musician, I have found myself in situations with Mirco-Managing Pastors. Those types inmates opinion "Kill The Heart of Worship". Praise God for you sharing this.
I am a former worship pastor who has had both good and bad relationships with pastors. I can certainly say the best relationship I had with a pastor there is give and take on both of our ends. We were friends. We just hit it off well with each other. I knew what he wanted in a service, and he knew what I needed from him. He gave me space. There was mutual respect.
The most thing I've Church Musicians get fire for was 1. Not learning Hymns. 2. Not learning to playing in all keys without using the transposer button. 3. Not wanting to rehearse with ALL Choirs.
This is a great video and great point. I don’t hang out with my pastor but I respect him as the shepherd of the church. Just as much as he leads the church, I trust him to lead me. He may make suggestions about worship but ultimately, he trust me to lead all aspects of the worship. Personally, I couldn’t play at a church where I don’t feel spiritually fed and don’t benefit from the pastor’s leadership. I don’t have to hang out with him. He lets me know often privately and publicly that he appreciates all that I do.
Situations to avoid: A pastor as the music director of the worship team playing or not an instrument, has any of his kids playing or singing in the team....a Pastor that micromanages everything, A pastor that wants you to play at every activity outside or inside of church without any consideration or kind of remuneration and your own private life.
You described my exact situation, but I don't hate it. He plays acoustic and sings. His wife plays the bass. His father-in-law on drums. Me on electric and my wife sings too. We all have great chemistry and my words are never ignored as I am the most "seasoned" player...crazy you wrote that. Perhaps we are an exception I dunno.
@@younkinjames8571my response to that is how big is the ministry. Cause I ve been apart smaller churches and large 1000+. What you are describing doesn't scale for them or you over times of growth. Guess who ends up with the short end when real growth happens its not the pastors family. You take up the slack. This is why quarterly and annual growth plans should be part of your reviews. Lastly never take a position were full time and part time aren't defined in your contract. If you are putting in 30+ hours as a musician you should be full time. This due to practice and mastery of music material that takes time.
I have been in music ministry for over 30 years in multiple different churches. I never had a close relationship with any of the pastors. I had good relationships with all of them, and I have them respect. It's not about me, but it's about serving together to have Jesus glorified and not any person. What I did find was musicians are very sensitive people and they can get easily offended if things don't go there way, especially with younger musicians who are not mature
After years of dealing with overbearing pastors who liked to micromanage everything, I put my foot down and set down a list of non-negotiable “demands” before I took my next music Director/worship leader position. 1 - I pick the music. He could suggest or request certain songs or themes based upon the message or series but ultimately I had final say. Basically, I wouldn’t interfere with what his job was as a pastor and he needed to respect me enough to not interfere with my job as music director. 2 - who was on the praise team either as a musician, singer or sound crew was completely up to me. Yes, everyone should be allowed to serve but some people simply aren’t gifted in the area that they want to serve and I get to choose that not him. 3 - along those same lines when I feel someone needs to go or isn’t suited to be on the platform, then I get to choose that and he doesn’t interfere. 4 - my hair can be any length and any color I choose, and I may even wear a hat. 5 - I will never wear a tie and most likely will never wear a jacket either. I probably will not even wear slacks but I will always dress neat and clean, usually with a polo and jeans and probably a pair of sandals with socks. 6 - unless something comes up we can meet once a month to go over anything that may be coming up or that needs to be addressed but I am not a dog and I don’t come at your beck and call. You pay me to do a job and I will do it in excellence but my time and life will not revolve around this building. I have a wife, I have children and they will always come first. Likewise I will respect your time and your position and back your decisions 100%. Granted, I truly never thought any pastor in his right mind would ever agree to such things, but one did and it was the best church experience I ever had and the relationship we built was one like never before, absolutely amazing!
4 - my hair can be any length and any color I choose, and I may even wear a hat. 5 - I will never wear a tie and most likely will never wear a jacket either. I probably will not even wear slacks but I will always dress neat and clean, usually with a polo and jeans and probably a pair of sandals with socks." Ur hair can be any length. Are u Nazarite then? Really dude?
@@passiton3801 after years of being a part of the independent fundamental Baptist movement, who thought that a quarter inch on the top and a zero around was the only thing approved by God. Yeah, no one or organization would ever again hold me to ridiculous standards of hair. It didn’t mean that I was going to grow my hair down to my waist or that I was going to die it blue, it just meant they had no say on what it was going to be today, tomorrow or ever. I did die it fluorescent pink wants, but that was because I had a deal with the children and youth groups about bringing in guests and presenting the Gospel to people in the park which they totally kicked butt at! I had to wear it once during Sunday service and then wore a hat for the rest of the six weeks it took to grow out.
Lots of great points all around and a few different ideas. Good sharing. I’ve been in “church” music almost 50 years. I’ve played no led in many different and highly varied settings. I’ve struggled most of this time to figure out what exactly is my part in all of this. Firstly, I have almost always been asked to participate and rarely sought it out. Secondly, one of my favorite handles I was able to connect to this ministry is that of chief musician. Of course this is a term that we see in the Psalms a lot. It really put me at ease as I realized most of my responsibility was to gather and encourage and lead/train other musicians. Also I took a look at the idea of worship: so many believers attach worship to worship in song, but I feel that really our greatest acts off worship are when we are simply obedient to God in whatever He leads us to. Also to include the reading of scripture and teaching of the Word. I’ve had a lot of hearts to think about all of this and have really settled on a lot of these concepts and principals for the last many years. Hope something in here was a blessing or encouragement.
I agree brother. Worship is more than music and singing. Our whole life should be lived out as worship to The Lord. How we relate to our spouse, family and others. How faithful we are to our employer and the job we do. Living with integrity and honesty in business transactions. keeping our word even when it may cost or inconvenience us. Also Romans 12:1 Paul encourage believers to present our bodies as living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, which is our spiritual service of worship.
Great insight. Pastors job = tough with usually clear expectations. Worship Leader’s job = tough with more esoteric expectations perhaps. Technical directors job = the Toughest job of all. All humor aside, we that are in the often volunteer layity need to be mindful to pray for our leaders. It is an awesome responsibility to build His Kingdom.
As a Musician I come prepared period regardless of the genre of music I’m performing however with that being said the Pastor at my Church has a wonderful relationship with the Music Ministry because we show up to all rehearsals and performances on Time and prepared as we’re getting paid to do but after the service is finished we all go our own separate ways.. Rinse & Repeat.
I was at one church playing keyboards and when it came time to worship , he made all the musicians and get off their instruments and worship like the congregation. when I hesitated he made come to the pulpit and started rebuking me . He said why wasn't you worshipping? I told him "I was worshipping, on my keyboard I thought that was my job"! I I immediately left that ministry and never looked back
That’s a really strange dynamic: “The pastor and the musician staff should be best buds” I think something has gone awry in whatever conference believes this. The worship leader/band leader should be working with the pastor to define what the best way to put the Body of Christ into the best mindset for being fed. They don’t have to be friends to do this, they both must be earnestly seeking God’s plan, and not seeking to be the star.
I agree with your statements bro.. I get stepped /criticized on weekly. What’s worse as soon as I’m told to turn music down or off. The bullies play their music cd I get no respect. I am seriously considering resigning leaving. Tired of this disrespect.
I have been in the music ministry for over 40 years and in the preaching ministry for over ten years, so I've seen things from both sides. I believe the relationship between pastor and musician should be cordial, yet professional. I've never just hung out with a pastor (mostly because I'm a female) but I never decided to play at a church where I didn't feel comfortable around the pastor. There has to be mutual respect where honest communication takes place, but what they were talking about at that conference seems a little too much for my taste. I'm not there to be friends per se, but to serve the Lord with my gifts. All lot of these issues wouldn't happen if we musicians were more selective about the environments we choose to work in and not just chase a check. I have been offered a lot of money to play at churches, but because I sensed something was off, I turned it down. That happened on at least 3 occasions.
My issue is these pastors want a full-time musician but don’t want to give you full-time pay. I have to balance my church responsibilities with my full-time job, and full-time pastors are the hardest to deal with because they have nothing else outside of the church, and they lose touch.
I am curious as to who told you those expectations of a connection with your pastor. I've had close relationships with pastors, and I didn’t hang out with them. I am still connected to my old pastors. I've only been let go from one church due to budget cuts. Interesting points that you made.
I've seen so many pastors who seem to resent their Music Directors! Most of them used to be musicians themselves. I've been through this. I don't need the pastor to be my best bud, I just need him to give me the directives, and then step back and trust me to do my job!
Ive played in different church band settings over the years, with widely varying results. I do know what you mean about arrogant pastors, or ones that were basically nice and told us musicians how wonderful we were, ya da ya da, but didnt listen to our input AT ALL, though musically they were quite clueless. There were people at church who felt entitled to run my life, but mostly ignored them. Im not answerable to them, nor them to ME, lol. But i had a lot more positive experiences than negative ones, and would love to play in a good creative christian band under the right circumstances.
You have some great points and I agree on many. I think the Minister of Music is a high position . The Pastor should not hire a musician just because he or she is talented , but they must be a minister as well. That means they would do it for free becasue its in their hearts. Now every worker is worthy of his pay. So they should get paid well. Long story short the two ministers should be working hand in hand to minister to the flock, not just the Pastor . It should be an organic close relationship.
I think it would be beneficial to this conversion to define terms. What specifically do you mean by "church musician"? Are you talking about a member of the band? Or the music leader/band leader? Or a member of the church staff who would be considered the music minister? Or even someone who holds the biblical office "pastor/elder" as well, overseeing the music portion of a worship service? Of course there is some overlap, and all situations are unique, but I think that the way a pastor relates to each of these descriptions would be different. Many churches understand the preaching pastor to be in an overseeing position over all all elements of the worship service. If that's the case, the the pastor really should see his relationship and a ministry parter with the person who selects the songs and manages the music portion of the worship services. They should be ministry partners. Doesn't mean they need to go fishing together, but it does mean that they need spend a lot of time in prayer together.
I have been in that relationship with pastors and it always in and disappointment. I currently play for a ministry I mostly deal with the music department I've spoken with the pastor maybe twice and I've been there a few months now. So far so good. They pay me to play for the service not to build a social club.
It tickles me when people say go back to simple music and musicians shouldn’t get paid and etc. I believe this is one of the reasons why the Bible states in Luke 16:8 that the "children of the world are wiser than the children of light". The world "get’s it" but we as "children of the light" are so antiquated when it comes to the church and church "business". Not saying that the church should be like the world, in fact, it should be the other way around. We should be leading the world. As for the relationship with the musicians and pastors; there should be a brotherly/ sisterly respect between them and a respect for the authority of the office of pastor. Yes, there is plenty of ego on both sides however, it shouldn’t be this way. I speak as both a minister of the word and a musician. Let’s use some humility and common sense when speaking on subjects like this. Of course everyone has their own opinion or interpretation, if you will, on the matter. This is just my thoughts on the matter. Respectfully.
some pastors want us to play the keyboard and when they are not around you climb the pulpit and preach, sometimes be a modulator in the service after musicians are off the stage.when you say no you become a devil.
You seem to consistently miss the spiritual component in these church videos. The pastors “job” is to shepherd the people. My job as a musician is to support that. I’m not eternally responsible for the souls of those in the congregation. HE is. These are all great points and the partnership the pastor has with the worship leader is vital in achieving the vision cast by the pastor but it will always break down if playing in church is nothing but a job to you. It starts becoming about your paycheck and personal goals and less about where God is taking the church.
You just play music bro. Your job is to be sensitive to the stresses of daily life and minster through music to that. Where the church is going is lead by the pastor. All you do is go with that flow (only if it doesn’t compromise your personal convictions and what you know to be true biblically). Nothing else. Sensitivity to what the people need musically comes from spending time with God yourself, not your pastor. You can also be sensitive to your job and be aware of when a church is trying to take advantage of you financially and spiritually. Keeping churches from taking advantage of you doesn’t mean you’re missing a spiritual component. They are missing the spiritual component of church business.
@@Get_Yo_Life well, I’ve literally served in all positions. I was a vocational worship leader for years and volunteer before that. I’ve sang, played lead and directed. I’ve served in sound and production. I was the pastor of a church for 9 years. I was the youth pastor for a while at a few churches over the past 25 years. You could say that I know “the business of church. Some churches take advantage of musicians but I’ve seen way more of the worship leader and musicians taking advantage of the church. They see money. They don’t want or care to submit to any spiritual authority, and they don’t support the community within the Church. You do have to be on the lookout for that. You have to be in prayer to make sure you’re not one of those.
I must also add that with the lack of expositional preaching and orthodoxy, most churches and pastors have gotten away from practicing Christianity as the gospel has laid out. We also live in the Information Age where people are not as ignorant as they used to be. Nowadays you can walk in a church where the musician probably knows more about the Bible than the pastor and have read it from cover to cover. So now we just accept that most churches have traded the gospel for prosperity and self help messages. We also know that it’s rare to even find a Bible teaching church due to the paradigm shift. So yes we treat it like a job, especially where the biblical foundation of the church is off. It’s a “it is what it is” mindset that goes along with the reality that most churches that have Bible believing musicians will not be following the Bible as they should. So we come and work but go back home to work out our own soul salvation by finding teachers who will expound upon the word of God.
Now that I do agree with. After leaving the pulpit last year I’ve set in some pretty dead services with horrid theology. To much sizzle and show these days. No depth. No discipleship. No integrity of the gospel.
Your advice is good for a mega church or a dictatorship type of church (where its a one man show). Established institutional churches have a different set of structures and many many sub-groups. The music director of an established institution has to also be the performer and the teacher of all parts and know orchestration. You won't have time to hang out with the pastor. My church has about 12 pastors and 1 primary one. A ton of deacons and trustees and other leaders. Then you have one main musician that is asked to apply music to almost everything. Its like being a teacher at a school of people. So as the music director, I have to know all parts. I just bought a violin to learn to play it because some kids play it at school. I had to learn the mechanics of a sax. I have to find other musicians and teach the band parts. I had to teach myself to read musics, because sometimes people would bring sheet music. You have to always learn and be able to teach at all times. If a pastor is trying to micro-manage you, you might need to rethink the structure of the church and where you fit in. If he's got time to busy work you, then that church is small. He chose you too because you're small in skill set and might look like a push over. You have to re-evaluate your mission statement and come to agreement with that pastor and his goals. If you're doing for a paycheck, then you got to take the bumps and bruises. Its a tough call! Also musicians, learn your hymns. I dislike a church that doesn't know hymns and choir songs. Everytime you go there, they try to fit pop radio songs to a choir and it ends up being just the lead singer. Also learn to create your own songs. Learn to create hymnal like songs and also pop culture songs. Its good for everyone. Just pick a verse out the bible and apply it to a tune.
I'm not at all opposed to worship ministry but i am curious as how the modern worship ministry concept developed. Although it's something that is normal and accepted as most assemblies have a praise and worship team, ensemble, choir etc. I don't see a pattern or example of this concept ( Worship teams, Worship Pastors as a set apart component within the Church) in the new testament or as far as i know in the early church. I do see encouragement of believers worshipping God together as a whole but not with a special designated group of singers/musicians leading worship. The closest scripture reference i see is Colossians 3:16 which seems to indicate all believers being encouraged to teach, admonish each other with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs singing to God. Likewise Ephesians 5:18, 19 where Paul admonishes the believers not to be drunk with wine but filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Any enlightment given would be appreciated. In terms of relationship between a pastor and worship leader, musicians the scriptures seem to indicate that a pastor is one of the spiritual gifts that Jesus designated as shepherd, overseer, to lead the congregation through encouragement, nurturing, protecting and teaching. I believe the pastors relationship with the musicians, singers should include the above characteristics as it does the rest of the congregation. I don't know that the pastors responsibility would extend beyond that. The Pastor is charged with equipping the saints, for the work of the ministry, for edifying the body of Christ along with the apostles, prophets, evangelist, and teachers according to Ephesians 4:11,12. I believe there should be mutual respect between a pastor and the the worship leader, musicians, singers albeit recognizing the role The Lord has assigned to the pastor as the overseer and servant leader of the congregation. Two scriptures I believe would befit the pastor and those he leads. 1. For the pastor. (1st Peter 5:1-3.) " Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and partaker also of the glory to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, overseeing not under compulsion, but willingly, according to God; not for dishonest gain, but with eagerness; not lording it over those allotted to you, but being examples to the flock." 2. For those under the pastors care which includes worship Leaders, musicians. ( Hebrews 13:17) "Obey them that govern you and submit, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give account,that they will do this with joy, and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." I pray that peace and unity prevail in the body of Christ.
There's an even more fundamental problem here - namely that the 'blueprint' for a church, as we see outlined by St Paul and in the book of Acts - is that all churches SHOULD have *plurality of leadership.* There simply should NOT BE one pastor who does everything. The biblical model is for a leadership team, where no one person is 'the boss' - other than Jesus Himself. The issue really is that very few churches actually conform to the model shown in the book of Acts. Instead, most churches are heirarchical in nature, usually with the Pastor who is 'The Boss' - and it is he (or she) who 'calls the shots.' No matter how nice this person may be, this model will always fail in some way or other. This heirarchical structure can (and often does) impinge upon the worship team. The pastor might want certain songs performed, in a certain style, or might 'clip the wings' of musicians who may not be given any significant freedom of expression. Even, in the extreme, certain types of music can be regarded as being unsuitable for that church - mainly because it doesn't happen to match with the expectations and wishes of the pastor. For example, as a jazz pianist I tend to 'slip in' some more advanced harmonies here and there (tastefully, of course) - but I've been to churches where such things are frowned upon for being 'too worldly' or 'not revering The Lord.' And such churches can become stifling to the creative spirit of a musician. Another example is where the son of the pastor was ALWAYS the one playing the piano. His playing was adequate, I suppose, but very limited, very predictable, and pretty uninspiring. My skills as a pianist were way ahead of his, but yet I was hardly ever allowed to play piano - because it was his 'gig' (unpaid, being the UK) but his gig nonetheless. And this is not an isolated example. Time and again I've seen where because the pastor is in charge, and is usually unmusical, the decisions about who got to play in the worship team was TIGHTLY controlled. Let's just say that for most of my life I've been sidelined in favour of other musicians - not through the choice of the church as a whole, but because of the church leadership.
he's not wrong about any of this...the "can't force closeness" is a very good point...really tired of the notion that close relationships of any kind can be accomplished through some formula...human relationships just don't work that way...
I dont think its about it only being a paycheck. Terence is talking about honest communication about the work involved, and mutual respect. A lot of pastors are clueless maximus about music, but that doesnt prevent them from being condescending.
Musicians are supposed to get compensated for their efforts within a church setting? Huh...I know someone who never got a penny offered to them for developing skills and playing for years in a church setting...but that was the 70's 80's and 90's...huh...regardless of the compensation thing, I think the key is, above all, to be spiritually led so that heartfelt worship can be enhanced within a church setting, working in conjunction with their developed skills as a musician. Thanks for the video.
Volunteering your skills is a choice. If someone chooses to volunteer praise God. If they get paid praise God. What I find weird having an IT background. Pastors will offer payment for help IT help. Then not if you are a musician in the church and people will respond the same way you have like we are doing something wrong for asking.
What's missing is the structure of the Church as given by the apostle Paul. The business aspect is important, but if we are operating under the leadership of Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, under the leadership of the Pastor - who puts Christ FIRST in ALL things, then God's will will be done - in the Church and in our lives as believers in Christ. If we're operating as just employees, that's up to you
You can rarely be friends with someone who has hiring and firing power over you. Plus, imagine how it would look to the laity if someone who looks like me started going fishing and doing lunch with the [malle] pastor on a regular basis. All that aside, I would have hated hanging out with the last pastor I worked with. I really didn't llke him that much but that didn't stop me from doing the work. With ZERO budget.
Why is such church allowing hiring and firing power to a pastor? Why are their not elders in the church? Why is their hiring and firing at all. If someone isn't fitting in to a program then make adjustments.
@@JDeadwyler Wanna bet? (other than paying me a few peanuts, otherwise I would have been outa there before getting in.) Some churches don't even pay their musicians anything. That's how the other half lives. And by a budget I mean funds I had control discretion and agency over. Money got spent here & there, but I had zero agency. Like they replaced the sound system and IMO they way overpaid--they went with one of those outfits that preys on church people's ignorance. He asked me what I thought and I weighed in and he absolutlely ignored me. I said I'd go in and help them test it and they didn't want me there, as a result the mics were hung way too high and they said it's fine, then I got blamed when it wasn't. It confused the F out of me, because they kept telling me to STFU, then when things were suboptimal they were all, why didn't you speak up?
My former pastor had a tendency to micromanage the music ministry. I always disagreed as I felt he should have allowed the people he was paying to do their jobs.
It's all about ministry... To the congregation. It's about being FELLOW ministers with different callings. The Musician is called to lead Worship, The pastor's calling is to preach the WORD. they should be complementary. The pastor should have shared a clear vision and shared what he see the congregations needs are at where they are at, overall, in Faith. I otherwise totally agree. :)
In some instances the church is WAY TOO formal, having only one worship team and only that worship team performs/leads worship and only those who are accepted may be on the team.
My pastor has eliminated this and all other problems around this. First i will tell you I am a musician. Our church music is limited to the opening and by the church leaders. We do not have concerts or extended musical moments. The reason is we are there to learn about the word of God - Period- the majority of the time is spent in the King James Bible and learning about ourselves and the word of God. There is plenty of time to enjoy music outside of this. The church is not about a musical inspiration- its about saving souls. It is a wise choice on my pastor’s part
that's because WE the church made up the whole thing. that's why it's not in there. we allegorize the entire bible and twist it to our screwed up human wants. so much for a bride without spot or wrinkle.
Brother: What I am about to state will most definitely disagree with many who read it. So be it! Clearly this psuedo relationship between the "Church Musician" {I presume that you are referring to the Worship Leader of the musicians} and the pastor as described is unrealistic! Contrary to general consensus thinking, Your primary job is to praise and lift up God via music and human voice, and to engage the parishioners and congregation in worship likewise. Psalm 150:1-6 What I heard you say is something fashioned and generated by man's desire honed over time, that has found its way into the church's common practice, and is supported by POC tradition garnished with misinterpretation of scripture. Further, it is not only the pastor's goal to preach and shepherd the congregation with the assistance of deacons, elders, whatever the clergy structure that is being employed, etc, anyone who is a believers and follower of Jesus also share that goal. Matthew 28: 18-20 Finally, as a fellow musician and son of a pastor, let me simply state, tradition can be a powerful grip to dislodge, however, I hold to this mindset; The best and most effective leaders do not SEEK to be leaders; rather, they are CALLED to be leaders, they model servitude leadership, do not micro manage, or insist upon subservient relationships.
@@curious011 It would be more effective if you became the biblical agent of change. You already have the tools within the Bible to do so. Although no prophet receives honor in his home town. As for the I know best, and where have I been comments...? I will overlook what hints at being potentially sarcasm; if it is, nothing is served by exchanging snide remarks between us. Only Satan benefits from such a scenario. The most succinct response to the first comment is God knows Best! I believe that and try my level best to live in obedience. I remain a work in progress to this day. As for where have I been, I have been around the globe several times during the past eighty years in of my life. I won't bore you with the details. If you are genuinely interested, I suggest a book that has helped me help others. The book is "The 4.8 Principle", authored by Tommy Newberry. I think that you will not regret it.
To be honest the music is the majority of most church services. Some times if the Music is good. The Preacher won't Preacher. The Min. Of Music is in charge of 75% of service. A team relation is going to develop regardless. The Preacher might want the songs to line up with his message. If they aren't fishing for the Saints they do not need to go fishing. They need to get heads for busted drums and replace cracked cymbals.
Wow, all of the talk and replies about "pastors". Scripture refers to the church having elders and not a single pastor to lead. It is no wonder that the church is luke warm.
@@JDeadwyler We gather in a way that prevents unity and carry with it seeds of jealousy. We have been gathering at a cornerstone the builders accept. Jesus is the cornerstone the builders rejected. The pastor model is the Pharisee model. It is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
Everybody looking for $$$ at church nowadays....but what about the rewards God promised to give us on that day?? Churches don't need musicians just sing a few hymns and clap your hands....
All that stuff you said about pastor and musician relationship should be, is GAY! I have things to do like PRACTICE! If we become friends organically then that's great but other than that, kick rocks.
Why should a musician have to run up behind a pastor to try and get a relationship??? I respect the office of the pastor, but only Jesus is Lord. That approach has never felt right to me. It leads to a one sided relationship, because rarely have I seen a pastor put forth that kind of effort to build a relationship with a musician, who is also a sheep. I've been blessed to have worked WITH many great pastors; but running up behind a pastor, the way many of us are told to do, is not the right way. There needs to be mutual respect and that comes primarily through the ministering that takes place during the services. Even though a musician has been hired, this can't be based on the same dynamics in which the world operates. Both musicians and pastors need to be humble, not one being submissive to the other in that particular way.
Ohhh so, the pastor and music leader are not brothers in Christ, they're really more like boss and employee in Christ. After all, Jesus said _"on this rock I will build my 501c3 man made religious institution that's ran like a business."_
Im more concerned with playing with a church in which the Pastor is more concerned with my soul. I want the teaching , preaching, and bible study. Many times the focus is on the talent. Yes, talent is important. However, are you making an attempt to live the life in which god wants us to live.
Pastors have NO idea what they want. - That and the ego of the musician lead to problems. Pastors don't really praise their musicians, they only tell them when they do something wrong-another issue. Pastors have to prove their authority, that's a problem. I did this for years and wouldn't dare do it anymore. Everyone wants to be on the cutting edge and then they treat people like dirt. There is a whole network out there of musicians that were either fired or quit because pastors can be real morons. No social skills, no real world management experience. Just fragile egos. Pastors can't usually get a real job so they want to be kings of their little world. Musicians have awful egos most of the time and this makes things worse. We should go back to simple services with simple music. There is no Biblical precedence for any of this and trying to make the Bible justify cutting edge worship music goes to show you that this is no longer about the Bible, if anyone can even quote any of it in context. We left the Bible years ago and there is no way back.
Most church musicians have other ways of earning money....nobody is supposed to living off God if you are physically able to go out and work......I know church musicians that play blues and Rnb on Fridays and Saturdays....and most are not living according to the scriptures.....
musicians have to eat. Pay us. Why should we buy gear for your worship. No need to have all that crap to worship that fake entity you all believe in. Praying is a silent thing between you and god, say god/
It seems to me that you want to be a secular musician. If you dont subscribe to fellowship, then maybe churches are not the right venue for you to earn money as a musician. It's a ministry wherein you not only minister to the congregation, but also to each other. Fellowship should remain mandatory in church settings. If you dont like the setting, choose a new one. Dont expect the church to change for your secular views, talking points and comfortability.
Should also the instruments being used also be made by non secular luthiers? How about where the building materials that are used to build the building? If they come from a secular company can the building truly be of God? Why are they using modern computer technology? Isn't all of that evil? Electricity was discovered and built out by secularists. Shouldn't you just be a part of the Amish culture? If you're not then you're being a bit hypocritical. - signed: the actual brutal truth.
It would be nice if you could get to your point a little quicker. I am 6 minutes in and you really have not said anything of substance yet although you have said many words.
Sorry no respect for the music director a total ass hole in the highest respect has no feelings for nobody in the praise band you are either in or out it’s just a bussiness so sad it has come to this I out of this environment don’t ever want to come back I’m happier playing in a secular music sentence at least they care for me and want to help me the church couldn’t care less so much for humility they don’t even call to see if they can help nothing nada they just don’t care very sad but that’s life gotta move on I will never look back but move forward and the lord has open new doors for me the past is the past
I’m shocked to hear what they were teaching at that conference. I couldn’t do it. I’m not enough of a Beta male for that. Take the pastor fishing and call him and hangout with him?🫤 Bruh, I’m a grown man with a family. I won’t be kissing A to any pastor. I’m more likely to confront one for teaching some erroneous doctrine than to schedule a fishing trip for the man.
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I was a church musician for a extremely long time and my experience is that as well as I’m a PK. All of the ministries I played for most of them large ministries I found that it was a two way street, the entire band had respect for the Pastor but he also respected us as musicians. Now that I’m a Pastor myself I make sure that that same respect is given to all the leaders in the ministry especially to the musicians that are my sons. It’s a two way street always, you only get what you give.
Amen, bro. 😎🎶👆
Yes, the concept of 2 way street is vitally important in ongoing relationships.
If the pastors are musicians themselves it makes communication easier.
I agree that communication and trust has to be a two-way street. I’ve seen too many pastors that micromanage their worship team, and end up killing all enthusiasm for it because they cannot choose their own songs or style. If the pastor wants a specific style all the time, they should be prepared to lead the worship team themselves (and not complain when they are so busy doing everything that they don’t have time for their pastor duties)
Good relationships are built on mutual respect, not kissing butt. Good video, on point.
In many cases there's too much emphasis placed on music and entertainment in many churches. People subtly are "worshipping" worship instead of worshipping God. They're worshipping the pastor, the ministry. feelings and emotions that are influenced by the mood of the music, lighting etc.. Music is nice to have but it shouldn't be something one "needs to have" in order to worship God.
We have no idea that we have destroyed the church. You are correct on every point.
@@curious011 Correct. In many instances it's a "House of Merchandise" with motivational speaking "pastors" preaching self-help psychology "sermons."
@metalhead6526 It definitely continues to dwindle. As you know, if you happen to be a scholar of the bible who will share the word within the membership, the leadership will kick you out ASAP. 🦶
So true brother. "Worship" can become idolatry, displacing The Only One that deserves to be worshiped.
@@irataylor5083 💯 brother.
Man My Brutha! I am ecstatic that you're talking about this. The last Pastor I was under was my closest friend and worship leader at the church we once attended. He as Pastor demonstrated those 3 things you talked about. As worship musician, I have found myself in situations with Mirco-Managing Pastors. Those types inmates opinion "Kill The Heart of Worship". Praise God for you sharing this.
I am a former worship pastor who has had both good and bad relationships with pastors. I can certainly say the best relationship I had with a pastor there is give and take on both of our ends. We were friends. We just hit it off well with each other. I knew what he wanted in a service, and he knew what I needed from him. He gave me space. There was mutual respect.
The most thing I've Church Musicians get fire for was
1. Not learning Hymns.
2. Not learning to playing in all keys without using the transposer button.
3. Not wanting to rehearse with ALL Choirs.
Woah. That is a mistake I would never make
They only sing 8 hymns mostly so that's no biggie. Everybody can't play in all keys and they don't have to. There's always a church needing a musician
2 is not easy if change a key of music that alway composed though. IT easier to know to play in all keys though.
@@02WIFEa prerequisite to being a musician is the ability to navigate all key signatures
@@tonebrennan8475In a perfect world
This is a great video and great point. I don’t hang out with my pastor but I respect him as the shepherd of the church. Just as much as he leads the church, I trust him to lead me. He may make suggestions about worship but ultimately, he trust me to lead all aspects of the worship. Personally, I couldn’t play at a church where I don’t feel spiritually fed and don’t benefit from the pastor’s leadership. I don’t have to hang out with him. He lets me know often privately and publicly that he appreciates all that I do.
Situations to avoid: A pastor as the music director of the worship team playing or not an instrument, has any of his kids playing or singing in the team....a Pastor that micromanages everything, A pastor that wants you to play at every activity outside or inside of church without any consideration or kind of remuneration and your own private life.
You described my exact situation, but I don't hate it. He plays acoustic and sings. His wife plays the bass. His father-in-law on drums. Me on electric and my wife sings too. We all have great chemistry and my words are never ignored as I am the most "seasoned" player...crazy you wrote that. Perhaps we are an exception I dunno.
@@younkinjames8571my response to that is how big is the ministry. Cause I ve been apart smaller churches and large 1000+. What you are describing doesn't scale for them or you over times of growth. Guess who ends up with the short end when real growth happens its not the pastors family. You take up the slack. This is why quarterly and annual growth plans should be part of your reviews. Lastly never take a position were full time and part time aren't defined in your contract. If you are putting in 30+ hours as a musician you should be full time. This due to practice and mastery of music material that takes time.
I have been in music ministry for over 30 years in multiple different churches. I never had a close relationship with any of the pastors. I had good relationships with all of them, and I have them respect. It's not about me, but it's about serving together to have Jesus glorified and not any person.
What I did find was musicians are very sensitive people and they can get easily offended if things don't go there way, especially with younger musicians who are not mature
I have much to say on this topic and the wisdom not to say it!
6:15 Respect (no micromanagement)
6:58 Open active communication & free expression.
8:00 Encouragement & Assistance & loyalty
Thank you so much for this podcast, brother.
After years of dealing with overbearing pastors who liked to micromanage everything, I put my foot down and set down a list of non-negotiable “demands” before I took my next music Director/worship leader position.
1 - I pick the music. He could suggest or request certain songs or themes based upon the message or series but ultimately I had final say. Basically, I wouldn’t interfere with what his job was as a pastor and he needed to respect me enough to not interfere with my job as music director.
2 - who was on the praise team either as a musician, singer or sound crew was completely up to me. Yes, everyone should be allowed to serve but some people simply aren’t gifted in the area that they want to serve and I get to choose that not him.
3 - along those same lines when I feel someone needs to go or isn’t suited to be on the platform, then I get to choose that and he doesn’t interfere.
4 - my hair can be any length and any color I choose, and I may even wear a hat.
5 - I will never wear a tie and most likely will never wear a jacket either. I probably will not even wear slacks but I will always dress neat and clean, usually with a polo and jeans and probably a pair of sandals with socks.
6 - unless something comes up we can meet once a month to go over anything that may be coming up or that needs to be addressed but I am not a dog and I don’t come at your beck and call. You pay me to do a job and I will do it in excellence but my time and life will not revolve around this building. I have a wife, I have children and they will always come first. Likewise I will respect your time and your position and back your decisions 100%.
Granted, I truly never thought any pastor in his right mind would ever agree to such things, but one did and it was the best church experience I ever had and the relationship we built was one like never before, absolutely amazing!
'You pay me to do a job'. That says everything.
4 - my hair can be any length and any color I choose, and I may even wear a hat.
5 - I will never wear a tie and most likely will never wear a jacket either. I probably will not even wear slacks but I will always dress neat and clean, usually with a polo and jeans and probably a pair of sandals with socks."
Ur hair can be any length. Are u Nazarite then?
Really dude?
@@passiton3801 after years of being a part of the independent fundamental Baptist movement, who thought that a quarter inch on the top and a zero around was the only thing approved by God. Yeah, no one or organization would ever again hold me to ridiculous standards of hair. It didn’t mean that I was going to grow my hair down to my waist or that I was going to die it blue, it just meant they had no say on what it was going to be today, tomorrow or ever. I did die it fluorescent pink wants, but that was because I had a deal with the children and youth groups about bringing in guests and presenting the Gospel to people in the park which they totally kicked butt at! I had to wear it once during Sunday service and then wore a hat for the rest of the six weeks it took to grow out.
Dog and Pony show director right there.
Lots of great points all around and a few different ideas. Good sharing. I’ve been in “church” music almost 50 years. I’ve played no led in many different and highly varied settings. I’ve struggled most of this time to figure out what exactly is my part in all of this. Firstly, I have almost always been asked to participate and rarely sought it out. Secondly, one of my favorite handles I was able to connect to this ministry is that of chief musician. Of course this is a term that we see in the Psalms a lot. It really put me at ease as I realized most of my responsibility was to gather and encourage and lead/train other musicians. Also I took a look at the idea of worship: so many believers attach worship to worship in song, but I feel that really our greatest acts off worship are when we are simply obedient to God in whatever He leads us to. Also to include the reading of scripture and teaching of the Word. I’ve had a lot of hearts to think about all of this and have really settled on a lot of these concepts and principals for the last many years. Hope something in here was a blessing or encouragement.
I agree brother. Worship is more than music and singing. Our whole life should be lived out as worship to The Lord. How we relate to our spouse, family and others. How faithful we are to our employer and the job we do. Living with integrity and honesty in business transactions. keeping our word even when it may cost or inconvenience us. Also Romans 12:1 Paul encourage believers to present our bodies as living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, which is our spiritual service of worship.
ur exacty correct in your statements!!.....lets NOT have a lopsided relationship in ANY work environment!!!... TEAMWORK...make the DREAM work....
Great insight. Pastors job = tough with usually clear expectations. Worship Leader’s job = tough with more esoteric expectations perhaps. Technical directors job = the Toughest job of all. All humor aside, we that are in the often volunteer layity need to be mindful to pray for our leaders. It is an awesome responsibility to build His Kingdom.
As a Musician I come prepared period regardless of the genre of music I’m performing however with that being said the Pastor at my Church has a wonderful relationship with the Music Ministry because we show up to all rehearsals and performances on Time and prepared as we’re getting paid to do but after the service is finished we all go our own separate ways.. Rinse & Repeat.
I was at one church playing keyboards and when it came time to worship , he made all the musicians and get off their instruments and worship like the congregation. when I hesitated he made come to the pulpit and started rebuking me . He said why wasn't you worshipping? I told him "I was worshipping, on my keyboard I thought that was my job"! I I immediately left that ministry and never looked back
So so good Thank You. Keep doing what you do my friend. God is Good! 🎺🎺
That’s a really strange dynamic: “The pastor and the musician staff should be best buds” I think something has gone awry in whatever conference believes this. The worship leader/band leader should be working with the pastor to define what the best way to put the Body of Christ into the best mindset for being fed. They don’t have to be friends to do this, they both must be earnestly seeking God’s plan, and not seeking to be the star.
Been that, done there. Take your pick...S.O.S. YAHWEH knows His own!!! Speak truth, bro... Daddy knows His own...🕶️😎💯👆
I agree with your statements bro.. I get stepped /criticized on weekly. What’s worse as soon as I’m told to turn music down or off. The bullies play their music cd I get no respect. I am seriously considering resigning leaving. Tired of this disrespect.
I have been in the music ministry for over 40 years and in the preaching ministry for over ten years, so I've seen things from both sides. I believe the relationship between pastor and musician should be cordial, yet professional. I've never just hung out with a pastor (mostly because I'm a female) but I never decided to play at a church where I didn't feel comfortable around the pastor. There has to be mutual respect where honest communication takes place, but what they were talking about at that conference seems a little too much for my taste. I'm not there to be friends per se, but to serve the Lord with my gifts. All lot of these issues wouldn't happen if we musicians were more selective about the environments we choose to work in and not just chase a check. I have been offered a lot of money to play at churches, but because I sensed something was off, I turned it down. That happened on at least 3 occasions.
My issue is these pastors want a full-time musician but don’t want to give you full-time pay. I have to balance my church responsibilities with my full-time job, and full-time pastors are the hardest to deal with because they have nothing else outside of the church, and they lose touch.
This is God sent ! ; I've never had anyone in the church leadership including the pastor ask me: "What I think? "
RESPECT, EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION, SUPPORT.
Keep speaking the truth brother!!!!!
I am curious as to who told you those expectations of a connection with your pastor. I've had close relationships with pastors, and I didn’t hang out with them. I am still connected to my old pastors. I've only been let go from one church due to budget cuts.
Interesting points that you made.
It's like you're exactly describing a relationship with Jesus. We always have to do the work.
I've seen so many pastors who seem to resent their Music Directors! Most of them used to be musicians themselves. I've been through this. I don't need the pastor to be my best bud, I just need him to give me the directives, and then step back and trust me to do my job!
"KEEP MY PASTOR'S NAME OUTCHO' MMMOOOUUUTTTH!!!"😂🤣😂🤣
The old saying, familiarity breeds contempt.
Ive played in different church band settings over the years, with widely varying results. I do know what you mean about arrogant pastors, or ones that were basically nice and told us musicians how wonderful we were, ya da ya da, but didnt listen to our input AT ALL, though musically they were quite clueless. There were people at church who felt entitled to run my life, but mostly ignored them. Im not answerable to them, nor them to ME, lol.
But i had a lot more positive experiences than negative ones, and would love to play in a good creative christian band under the right circumstances.
You have some great points and I agree on many. I think the Minister of Music is a high position . The Pastor should not hire a musician just because he or she is talented , but they must be a minister as well. That means they would do it for free becasue its in their hearts. Now every worker is worthy of his pay. So they should get paid well. Long story short the two ministers should be working hand in hand to minister to the flock, not just the Pastor . It should be an organic close relationship.
I think it would be beneficial to this conversion to define terms. What specifically do you mean by "church musician"? Are you talking about a member of the band? Or the music leader/band leader? Or a member of the church staff who would be considered the music minister? Or even someone who holds the biblical office "pastor/elder" as well, overseeing the music portion of a worship service? Of course there is some overlap, and all situations are unique, but I think that the way a pastor relates to each of these descriptions would be different. Many churches understand the preaching pastor to be in an overseeing position over all all elements of the worship service. If that's the case, the the pastor really should see his relationship and a ministry parter with the person who selects the songs and manages the music portion of the worship services. They should be ministry partners. Doesn't mean they need to go fishing together, but it does mean that they need spend a lot of time in prayer together.
I have been in that relationship with pastors and it always in and disappointment. I currently play for a ministry I mostly deal with the music department I've spoken with the pastor maybe twice and I've been there a few months now. So far so good. They pay me to play for the service not to build a social club.
It tickles me when people say go back to simple music and musicians shouldn’t get paid and etc. I believe this is one of the reasons why the Bible states in Luke 16:8 that the "children of the world are wiser than the children of light". The world "get’s it" but we as "children of the light" are so antiquated when it comes to the church and church "business". Not saying that the church should be like the world, in fact, it should be the other way around. We should be leading the world. As for the relationship with the musicians and pastors; there should be a brotherly/ sisterly respect between them and a respect for the authority of the office of pastor. Yes, there is plenty of ego on both sides however, it shouldn’t be this way. I speak as both a minister of the word and a musician. Let’s use some humility and common sense when speaking on subjects like this. Of course everyone has their own opinion or interpretation, if you will, on the matter. This is just my thoughts on the matter. Respectfully.
some pastors want us to play the keyboard and when they are not around you climb the pulpit and preach, sometimes be a modulator in the service after musicians are off the stage.when you say no you become a devil.
You seem to consistently miss the spiritual component in these church videos. The pastors “job” is to shepherd the people. My job as a musician is to support that. I’m not eternally responsible for the souls of those in the congregation. HE is. These are all great points and the partnership the pastor has with the worship leader is vital in achieving the vision cast by the pastor but it will always break down if playing in church is nothing but a job to you. It starts becoming about your paycheck and personal goals and less about where God is taking the church.
You just play music bro. Your job is to be sensitive to the stresses of daily life and minster through music to that. Where the church is going is lead by the pastor. All you do is go with that flow (only if it doesn’t compromise your personal convictions and what you know to be true biblically). Nothing else. Sensitivity to what the people need musically comes from spending time with God yourself, not your pastor. You can also be sensitive to your job and be aware of when a church is trying to take advantage of you financially and spiritually. Keeping churches from taking advantage of you doesn’t mean you’re missing a spiritual component. They are missing the spiritual component of church business.
@@Get_Yo_Life well, I’ve literally served in all positions. I was a vocational worship leader for years and volunteer before that. I’ve sang, played lead and directed. I’ve served in sound and production. I was the pastor of a church for 9 years. I was the youth pastor for a while at a few churches over the past 25 years. You could say that I know “the business of church. Some churches take advantage of musicians but I’ve seen way more of the worship leader and musicians taking advantage of the church. They see money. They don’t want or care to submit to any spiritual authority, and they don’t support the community within the Church. You do have to be on the lookout for that. You have to be in prayer to make sure you’re not one of those.
I must also add that with the lack of expositional preaching and orthodoxy, most churches and pastors have gotten away from practicing Christianity as the gospel has laid out. We also live in the Information Age where people are not as ignorant as they used to be. Nowadays you can walk in a church where the musician probably knows more about the Bible than the pastor and have read it from cover to cover. So now we just accept that most churches have traded the gospel for prosperity and self help messages. We also know that it’s rare to even find a Bible teaching church due to the paradigm shift. So yes we treat it like a job, especially where the biblical foundation of the church is off. It’s a “it is what it is” mindset that goes along with the reality that most churches that have Bible believing musicians will not be following the Bible as they should. So we come and work but go back home to work out our own soul salvation by finding teachers who will expound upon the word of God.
Now that I do agree with. After leaving the pulpit last year I’ve set in some pretty dead services with horrid theology. To much sizzle and show these days. No depth. No discipleship. No integrity of the gospel.
@@LukeStoneStudios why did you leave the pulpit? Were you a pastor or minister?
Your advice is good for a mega church or a dictatorship type of church (where its a one man show).
Established institutional churches have a different set of structures and many many sub-groups.
The music director of an established institution has to also be the performer and the teacher of all parts and know orchestration. You won't have time to hang out with the pastor. My church has about 12 pastors and 1 primary one. A ton of deacons and trustees and other leaders. Then you have one main musician that is asked to apply music to almost everything. Its like being a teacher at a school of people.
So as the music director, I have to know all parts. I just bought a violin to learn to play it because some kids play it at school. I had to learn the mechanics of a sax. I have to find other musicians and teach the band parts. I had to teach myself to read musics, because sometimes people would bring sheet music. You have to always learn and be able to teach at all times.
If a pastor is trying to micro-manage you, you might need to rethink the structure of the church and where you fit in. If he's got time to busy work you, then that church is small. He chose you too because you're small in skill set and might look like a push over. You have to re-evaluate your mission statement and come to agreement with that pastor and his goals.
If you're doing for a paycheck, then you got to take the bumps and bruises.
Its a tough call! Also musicians, learn your hymns. I dislike a church that doesn't know hymns and choir songs. Everytime you go there, they try to fit pop radio songs to a choir and it ends up being just the lead singer. Also learn to create your own songs. Learn to create hymnal like songs and also pop culture songs. Its good for everyone. Just pick a verse out the bible and apply it to a tune.
Your a blessing bro
I'm not at all opposed to worship ministry but i am curious as how the modern worship ministry concept developed. Although it's something that is normal and accepted as most assemblies have a praise and worship team, ensemble, choir etc. I don't see a pattern or example of this concept ( Worship teams, Worship Pastors as a set apart component within the Church) in the new testament or as far as i know in the early church. I do see encouragement of believers worshipping God together as a whole but not with a special designated group of singers/musicians leading worship. The closest scripture reference i see is Colossians 3:16 which seems to indicate all believers being encouraged to teach, admonish each other with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs singing to God. Likewise Ephesians 5:18, 19 where Paul admonishes the believers not to be drunk with wine but filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Any enlightment given would be appreciated. In terms of relationship between a pastor and worship leader, musicians the scriptures seem to indicate that a pastor is one of the spiritual gifts that Jesus designated as shepherd, overseer, to lead the congregation through encouragement, nurturing, protecting and teaching. I believe the pastors relationship with the musicians, singers should include the above characteristics as it does the rest of the congregation. I don't know that the pastors responsibility would extend beyond that. The Pastor is charged with equipping the saints, for the work of the ministry, for edifying the body of Christ along with the apostles, prophets, evangelist, and teachers according to Ephesians 4:11,12. I believe there should be mutual respect between a pastor and the the worship leader, musicians, singers albeit recognizing the role The Lord has assigned to the pastor as the overseer and servant leader of the congregation. Two scriptures I believe would befit the pastor and those he leads.
1. For the pastor. (1st Peter 5:1-3.) " Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and partaker also of the glory to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, overseeing not under compulsion, but willingly, according to God; not for dishonest gain, but with eagerness; not lording it over those allotted to you, but being examples to the flock."
2. For those under the pastors care which includes worship Leaders, musicians. ( Hebrews 13:17) "Obey them that govern you and submit, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give account,that they will do this with joy, and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." I pray that peace and unity prevail in the body of Christ.
There's an even more fundamental problem here - namely that the 'blueprint' for a church, as we see outlined by St Paul and in the book of Acts - is that all churches SHOULD have *plurality of leadership.* There simply should NOT BE one pastor who does everything. The biblical model is for a leadership team, where no one person is 'the boss' - other than Jesus Himself.
The issue really is that very few churches actually conform to the model shown in the book of Acts. Instead, most churches are heirarchical in nature, usually with the Pastor who is 'The Boss' - and it is he (or she) who 'calls the shots.' No matter how nice this person may be, this model will always fail in some way or other.
This heirarchical structure can (and often does) impinge upon the worship team. The pastor might want certain songs performed, in a certain style, or might 'clip the wings' of musicians who may not be given any significant freedom of expression.
Even, in the extreme, certain types of music can be regarded as being unsuitable for that church - mainly because it doesn't happen to match with the expectations and wishes of the pastor.
For example, as a jazz pianist I tend to 'slip in' some more advanced harmonies here and there (tastefully, of course) - but I've been to churches where such things are frowned upon for being 'too worldly' or 'not revering The Lord.'
And such churches can become stifling to the creative spirit of a musician.
Another example is where the son of the pastor was ALWAYS the one playing the piano. His playing was adequate, I suppose, but very limited, very predictable, and pretty uninspiring. My skills as a pianist were way ahead of his, but yet I was hardly ever allowed to play piano - because it was his 'gig' (unpaid, being the UK) but his gig nonetheless.
And this is not an isolated example. Time and again I've seen where because the pastor is in charge, and is usually unmusical, the decisions about who got to play in the worship team was TIGHTLY controlled.
Let's just say that for most of my life I've been sidelined in favour of other musicians - not through the choice of the church as a whole, but because of the church leadership.
he's not wrong about any of this...the "can't force closeness" is a very good point...really tired of the notion that close relationships of any kind can be accomplished through some formula...human relationships just don't work that way...
I dont think its about it only being a paycheck. Terence is talking about honest communication about the work involved, and mutual respect. A lot of pastors are clueless maximus about music, but that doesnt prevent them from being condescending.
Musicians are supposed to get compensated for their efforts within a church setting? Huh...I know someone who never got a penny offered to them for developing skills and playing for years in a church setting...but that was the 70's 80's and 90's...huh...regardless of the compensation thing, I think the key is, above all, to be spiritually led so that heartfelt worship can be enhanced within a church setting, working in conjunction with their developed skills as a musician. Thanks for the video.
Volunteering your skills is a choice. If someone chooses to volunteer praise God. If they get paid praise God. What I find weird having an IT background. Pastors will offer payment for help IT help. Then not if you are a musician in the church and people will respond the same way you have like we are doing something wrong for asking.
What's missing is the structure of the Church as given by the apostle Paul. The business aspect is important, but if we are operating under the leadership of Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, under the leadership of the Pastor - who puts Christ FIRST in ALL things, then God's will will be done - in the Church and in our lives as believers in Christ. If we're operating as just employees, that's up to you
This is a great video a lot of musicians go through this a lot
You can rarely be friends with someone who has hiring and firing power over you. Plus, imagine how it would look to the laity if someone who looks like me started going fishing and doing lunch with the [malle] pastor on a regular basis. All that aside, I would have hated hanging out with the last pastor I worked with. I really didn't llke him that much but that didn't stop me from doing the work. With ZERO budget.
Why is such church allowing hiring and firing power to a pastor? Why are their not elders in the church? Why is their hiring and firing at all. If someone isn't fitting in to a program then make adjustments.
There’s no such thing as a Zero budget in the Church.. IMO.
@@JDeadwyler Wanna bet? (other than paying me a few peanuts, otherwise I would have been outa there before getting in.) Some churches don't even pay their musicians anything. That's how the other half lives. And by a budget I mean funds I had control discretion and agency over. Money got spent here & there, but I had zero agency. Like they replaced the sound system and IMO they way overpaid--they went with one of those outfits that preys on church people's ignorance. He asked me what I thought and I weighed in and he absolutlely ignored me. I said I'd go in and help them test it and they didn't want me there, as a result the mics were hung way too high and they said it's fine, then I got blamed when it wasn't. It confused the F out of me, because they kept telling me to STFU, then when things were suboptimal they were all, why didn't you speak up?
Not gonna lie: I clicked on this video because of the subtitle. I thought you were going to talk about Kevin Bond exposing TD Jakes or something 🤣
I have never been close to my pastors, even as a chorister.
My former pastor had a tendency to micromanage the music ministry. I always disagreed as I felt he should have allowed the people he was paying to do their jobs.
Pastors are salaried professionals with full compensation packages. Musicians are part time gig workers with token pay at best. Am I wrong?
It's all about ministry... To the congregation. It's about being FELLOW ministers with different callings. The Musician is called to lead Worship, The pastor's calling is to preach the WORD. they should be complementary. The pastor should have shared a clear vision and shared what he see the congregations needs are at where they are at, overall, in Faith. I otherwise totally agree. :)
If u have a pastor who's a musician.
It's a lot easier for them to relate to u...
In some instances the church is WAY TOO formal, having only one worship team and only that worship team performs/leads worship and only those who are accepted may be on the team.
Jesus will have the last word but one thing is also certain- the worship of Him will never end.
nah, he won't.
Would be a good idea to end denominationalism and instrumental music in worship, which Christ has not authorized in the first place.
.....oh, man,.
True talk sir
It’s time to bring our gifts freely to the body.. everyone’s needs to go find a job and quit taking money from God’s storehouse.
My pastor has eliminated this and all other problems around this. First i will tell you I am a musician. Our church music is limited to the opening and by the church leaders. We do not have concerts or extended musical moments. The reason is we are there to learn about the word of God - Period- the majority of the time is spent in the King James Bible and learning about ourselves and the word of God. There is plenty of time to enjoy music outside of this. The church is not about a musical inspiration- its about saving souls. It is a wise choice on my pastor’s part
Business first. Period.
There is no biblical direction or definition on what the worship leader is to function like
that's because WE the church made up the whole thing. that's why it's not in there. we allegorize the entire bible and twist it to our screwed up human wants. so much for a bride without spot or wrinkle.
Do you think an app like fiverr/up work would work for churches and musicians? How would it work? What problems do you think it would it solve?
Brother: What I am about to state will most definitely disagree with many who read it. So be it! Clearly this psuedo relationship between the "Church Musician" {I presume that you are referring to the Worship Leader of the musicians} and the pastor as described is unrealistic! Contrary to general consensus thinking, Your primary job is to praise and lift up God via music and human voice, and to engage the parishioners and congregation in worship likewise. Psalm 150:1-6 What I heard you say is something fashioned and generated by man's desire honed over time, that has found its way into the church's common practice, and is supported by POC tradition garnished with misinterpretation of scripture. Further, it is not only the pastor's goal to preach and shepherd the congregation with the assistance of deacons, elders, whatever the clergy structure that is being employed, etc, anyone who is a believers and follower of Jesus also share that goal. Matthew 28: 18-20 Finally, as a fellow musician and son of a pastor, let me simply state, tradition can be a powerful grip to dislodge, however, I hold to this mindset; The best and most effective leaders do not SEEK to be leaders; rather, they are CALLED to be leaders, they model servitude leadership, do not micro manage, or insist upon subservient relationships.
Then you need to come solve all our problems since you know best. Where have you been all our lives?
@@curious011 It would be more effective if you became the biblical agent of change. You already have the tools within the Bible to do so. Although no prophet receives honor in his home town. As for the I know best, and where have I been comments...? I will overlook what hints at being potentially sarcasm; if it is, nothing is served by exchanging snide remarks between us. Only Satan benefits from such a scenario. The most succinct response to the first comment is God knows Best! I believe that and try my level best to live in obedience. I remain a work in progress to this day. As for where have I been, I have been around the globe several times during the past eighty years in of my life. I won't bore you with the details. If you are genuinely interested,
I suggest a book that has helped me help others. The book is "The 4.8 Principle", authored by Tommy Newberry. I think that you will not regret it.
Where is this written? None of the church musicians I know never had a relationship like this with the pastor. They never got fired either.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 So that's how these musicians and worship leaders be getting turnt out!!!! It's shouldn't be that deep bruh
To be honest the music is the majority of most church services. Some times if the Music is good. The Preacher won't Preacher. The Min. Of Music is in charge of 75% of service. A team relation is going to develop regardless. The Preacher might want the songs to line up with his message. If they aren't fishing for the Saints they do not need to go fishing. They need to get heads for busted drums and replace cracked cymbals.
Wow, all of the talk and replies about "pastors". Scripture refers to the church having elders and not a single pastor to lead. It is no wonder that the church is luke warm.
Well it’s the truth relationship are built.
Unbelievable! Reach out to me.
That whole scenario is impossible and just protects the pastors ego.
How come ?
@@JDeadwyler We gather in a way that prevents unity and carry with it seeds of jealousy. We have been gathering at a cornerstone the builders accept. Jesus is the cornerstone the builders rejected. The pastor model is the Pharisee model. It is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
Everybody looking for $$$ at church nowadays....but what about the rewards God promised to give us on that day?? Churches don't need musicians just sing a few hymns and clap your hands....
they need to spend that money they save not paying taxes on a thing they can't even prove. All that stress for nothing,
Love 4 u! xo. Feel free to reach out.
All that stuff you said about pastor and musician relationship should be, is GAY! I have things to do like PRACTICE! If we become friends organically then that's great but other than that, kick rocks.
Why should a musician have to run up behind a pastor to try and get a relationship??? I respect the office of the pastor, but only Jesus is Lord. That approach has never felt right to me. It leads to a one sided relationship, because rarely have I seen a pastor put forth that kind of effort to build a relationship with a musician, who is also a sheep. I've been blessed to have worked WITH many great pastors; but running up behind a pastor, the way many of us are told to do, is not the right way. There needs to be mutual respect and that comes primarily through the ministering that takes place during the services. Even though a musician has been hired, this can't be based on the same dynamics in which the world operates. Both musicians and pastors need to be humble, not one being submissive to the other in that particular way.
Ohhh so, the pastor and music leader are not brothers in Christ, they're really more like boss and employee in Christ. After all, Jesus said _"on this rock I will build my 501c3 man made religious institution that's ran like a business."_
When a body becomes a business its called prostitution!
Im more concerned with playing with a church in which the Pastor is more concerned with my soul. I want the teaching , preaching, and bible study. Many times the focus is on the talent. Yes, talent is important. However, are you making an attempt to live the life in which god wants us to live.
Pastors have NO idea what they want. - That and the ego of the musician lead to problems. Pastors don't really praise their musicians, they only tell them when they do something wrong-another issue. Pastors have to prove their authority, that's a problem. I did this for years and wouldn't dare do it anymore. Everyone wants to be on the cutting edge and then they treat people like dirt. There is a whole network out there of musicians that were either fired or quit because pastors can be real morons. No social skills, no real world management experience. Just fragile egos. Pastors can't usually get a real job so they want to be kings of their little world. Musicians have awful egos most of the time and this makes things worse.
We should go back to simple services with simple music. There is no Biblical precedence for any of this and trying to make the Bible justify cutting edge worship music goes to show you that this is no longer about the Bible, if anyone can even quote any of it in context. We left the Bible years ago and there is no way back.
Already did 😊
Most church musicians have other ways of earning money....nobody is supposed to living off God if you are physically able to go out and work......I know church musicians that play blues and Rnb on Fridays and Saturdays....and most are not living according to the scriptures.....
and pastors should not be millionaires either. works both ways.
musicians have to eat. Pay us. Why should we buy gear for your worship. No need to have all that crap to worship that fake entity you all believe in. Praying is a silent thing between you and god, say god/
It seems to me that you want to be a secular musician. If you dont subscribe to fellowship, then maybe churches are not the right venue for you to earn money as a musician. It's a ministry wherein you not only minister to the congregation, but also to each other. Fellowship should remain mandatory in church settings. If you dont like the setting, choose a new one. Dont expect the church to change for your secular views, talking points and comfortability.
Should also the instruments being used also be made by non secular luthiers? How about where the building materials that are used to build the building? If they come from a secular company can the building truly be of God? Why are they using modern computer technology? Isn't all of that evil? Electricity was discovered and built out by secularists. Shouldn't you just be a part of the Amish culture? If you're not then you're being a bit hypocritical. - signed: the actual brutal truth.
what... god can't fix it?
Ummmm, is this really a thing?
It would be nice if you could get to your point a little quicker. I am 6 minutes in and you really have not said anything of substance yet although you have said many words.
i think Pastors may not appreciate the fact that they need musicians and have to compensate them.
Sorry no respect for the music director a total ass hole in the highest respect has no feelings for nobody in the praise band you are either in or out it’s just a bussiness so sad it has come to this I out of this environment don’t ever want to come back I’m happier playing in a secular music sentence at least they care for me and want to help me the church couldn’t care less so much for humility they don’t even call to see if they can help nothing nada they just don’t care very sad but that’s life gotta move on I will never look back but move forward and the lord has open new doors for me the past is the past
NO THANKS !😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Love it! Let's be friends?
I’m shocked to hear what they were teaching at that conference. I couldn’t do it. I’m not enough of a Beta male for that. Take the pastor fishing and call him and hangout with him?🫤
Bruh, I’m a grown man with a family. I won’t be kissing A to any pastor. I’m more likely to confront one for teaching some erroneous doctrine than to schedule a fishing trip for the man.