I grew up in church all my life as a Pastor’s kid. Since I was five years old, I had an immense passion for music, and I know that was given to me by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No musicians were paid back in the day in my church. Growing up as a musician in church, I can tell you that people do not understand the commitment and time it takes To develop that ministry and the financial commitment it takes as a musician. Do you “expect” to get paid no, but when people bless you with something man it is SUCH A BLESSING. One day, the Lord put in my heart, take care of my musicians every chance that you get and let them know how much I love and appreciate them. Bless them every chance that you get. I am ministering for free at my home church because I know that is where God planted my family and we are super blessed there. I know and love the heart of my pastors and if God leads them to pay me then praise God but if not, that is more than ok. I do NOT expect to get paid because that is why I’m there. But just for some who have no idea of what kind of commitment it takes, starting Sunday night I am asking for the Lord to give me songs for the following week, I choose the songs and send them out on Monday. I sequences and buy any gear that is needed usually spending around $160 a week. Then every day I am rehearsing the songs for at least an hour. That does not include time spent downloading and separating tracks or doing anything like that. We run the set list Sunday morning at 9 AM and we do not leave until about 1 PM. Some people may not agree with me, but that’s OK. Bible says it is always better to give than to receive, and that can go either way, right? Well, I think it’s meant for both sides. Musicians should give of their gifts but churches GIVE as well. Even if I’M not paid, if I invite a guest vocalist or musician I pay them because of what God asked me to do. So In summation, You can never go wrong with giving, whether you are the church or the musician! And no one should take advantage of the other
@MADE4WORSHIP you were fortunate...I led the Hymn singing in my church for close to 20 years.. I was kind of volunteered by a deacon who no longer wished to do it.. I thought it would be great... because I thought .. now I would be able to pick out the hymns...WRONG!... I was told that all songs were picked by the pastor... who would give me a list on Wednesday nights.. for me to look over so I would be ready on Sunday AM... I also played guitar in bands around town at the time.. and though we made a measly earning.. like $60.00 on a GOOD night....I NEVER expected or even thought about getting paid for the time it took me to learn those songs and while you are right...(I suppose).. to think that way..in regards to being compensated for time spent practicing at home... since hours of my life were spent practicing at home... I NEVER went to a gig expecting to be compensated for it... nor did the thought ever cross my mind.. between my secular job... and Sunday School preparations.. and practicing for gigs... I was lucky if I had 2 hours a week to spend with the family.. (to be honest though.. I was working 80+ hours a week at my job).. my children grew up without their dad... and I never saw a penny for that lost time.. at least YOU had the privilege of choosing which songs you were going to play.. what a blessing..
I played drums for over 30 years in 4 different churches. The thought of getting paid never crossed my mind. I felt it was an honor to use my talent, which God gave to me, to help people enter into the presence of the Lord and prepare their hearts for the word.
Yeah true, but incentivising either by encourgement or otherwise for the efforts put in by church musicians should be done. If churches don't wish to pay, then they should not criminalise us for not serving during weekly services apart from Sundays. In short don't have high expectations, have mutual respect. Period.
Oh you just made my day. Thank you 😊. I do the same. When I played in the world I was paid. But to charge God doesn’t seem right. I know folks who have full time 5-6 figure jobs who are saved , yet charge churches and get upset when you have this conversation. I’m 63 and when I was younger we got something to eat and sometimes a “ love offering “, and we were fine with that ! Over 20 years ago I told a former Pastor that the world has gotten into the church and taken over. This is sad . God can’t be happy.
Then you’re fine just serving as a volunteer drummer.. if you studied music, play mutiple instruments, bring software to the equation, can teach/develop other musicians, understand and update technology as it releases.. then you should be paid. There’s a difference from someone who enjoys using their gift and someone who is a professional and lives off of his/her skill.
It does speak of paying musicians in the bible: I also discovered that the Levites had not been given their prescribed portions of food, so they and the singers who were to conduct the worship services had all returned to work their fields. I immediately confronted the leaders and demanded, “Why has the Temple of God been neglected?” Then I called all the Levites back again and restored them to their proper duties. Nehemiah 13:10-11 NLT
This. At the end of the day, our duty as worship musicians is to give our best to God, NOT the leftovers of our time and energy after working a full 40 hours somewhere else. I understand smaller churches CAN'T do this but I believe if you CAN pay musicians (and media techs!) you should even if you're not able to pay much.
Here is the thing, you can never ever understand if you are not in that exact position as a Professional Musician that does music for a living. There's a huge difference, This is the reason a lot have left the church and gone to the clubs and the same church ends up preaching about them when it's the same church that made them leave. The question is where do you want them to function as musicians? Did the church buy the Keyboard or instruments for free? Or the building they are having the service? Or rent? If you leave your own profession and go to the church and not be paid then you will understand clearly and answer the questions properly. You pay them so they can focus. Music is not just a gift. You have to work on it. You have to invest in it. You also need to spend a lot of money. Requires so much time. You don't wake up and start playing music because you say it is a gift
@Pentatonickc I think musicians... SHOULD bring their own instruments to church.. other than the piano of course... AND they should Not get paid to play in the house of God... their reward will be in heaven...
@Pentatonickc I would not quit my day job.. to play for a church and get paid... In other words.. don't expect a church gig.. to buy you a new car or put food on your table... that is WRONG.. Music is Just that... it IS ONLY a gift... think of all the people in the world who are handicapped and would give an arm or their remaining leg.. JUST to be able to play.. and here you are expecting to be paid for something that millions can only dream of doing.. count yourself as BLESSED..... blessings do not need to come with pay..
If the church is large enough and can afford it, its ridiculous to not pay people that have cultivated a marketable skill. It should be a common sense issue. People take their time and energy to practice, so they can help provide an atmosphere for worship.
As a Catholic, I'm amazed this is even an issue. Of course they should be paid. Persons should be able to enjoy to fruits of their labors. Come to an agreement on time requirements and the stipend involved.
@gene8172 I think as a Catholic (been there, done that)... You naturally feel musicians should get paid... in my 20 years of being raised a Catholic.. that is how I saw the Catholic church.. IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY WITH THEM I could not afford a Catholic wedding.. I was married at a small Baptist church down the street.. for $25.00 and THAT was only because the pastor said . .If we feel like giving something we can I am very upset.. that everything in Catholicism is about paying people... Nobody in the House of God... should get paid EVER.. this includes the Priests in Catholic churches.. and Pastors in the protestant churches..
Ministers harangue us to tithe (OT),take a salary, but insist the music director “do it for the Lord.” Check out 1 Chronicles 23:1-5, Nehemiah 13:4-13. And “the workman is worthy of his wages.”
Regardless of which side of the discussion one agrees with, I've found this to be the most balanced and scripture centered discussion that I've come across. Thanks for posting this video and helping me to think scripturally through this issue!
I think the church should also consider a musician who is always available and does not work elsewhere. That is not paying but looking after or appreciating a gift.
I am a church musician. If you expect to have excellent music, which at my church is an essential element of worship, you have to support your musicians. If I put in 10+ hours a week to learn practice rehearse and perform songs, not including all the hours of training and musical maintenance. People think musicians are just doing what we love, and we do hopefully love it, but we are the same needs as everyone else. We have bills to pay. Just like you. It is crazy to expect people to work their butts off for free.
You are well underestimating the time and effort that goes into making powerful music. If I can’t be financially supported for my work, I must go elsewhere to work and I will no longer be able to make the music nearly as well because I wouldn’t have the time to make it work.
Yes!!!! Sadly this is such an important topic. My parents are pastors and I am the worship leader for our church, and it sad to say that we have had a few people that have brought this topic to us. Players that demand to be paid, and when denied they leave, or church member asking for the players. We have talked with our team about this, and have always stood firm that this is your service to God. This is our gift back to the Lord, who gave it all for us, but when you do this, you water down your worship and gift. Im so thankful that our church is simple, if no instruments can be played, we will sing just the same. If we don't have our worship singers, we sing the same as a congragation. Thank you for this amazing podcast!!!
There’s a difference between professionals who direct the choirs/teams, play organ or piano, are responsible to facilitate worship, and hobbyists who “do it for the Lord” as their contribution.
@@carolynboxmeyer7622, your response seems a bit harsh. As a church musician, this is a gift from God that I will use for His glory, regardless of compensation. The issue lies with the mindset of the musicians. If being paid supercedes their desire to edify the body of Christ and bring hearts closer to God, then there is a problem. I truly believe that being a musician in church, regardless of skill level, is an honor and above all, a ministry. Music is spiritual in nature, and that alone makes it just as important a role as preaching, because it creates an atmosphere for God to reach the hearts of people. If the church desires to bless their musicians for their contributions, then that is their preference. I just don't think money should be anyone's focus in ministry. If we honor God in all things, He will bless us. "But seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. "(Matthew 6:33)
In the UK it’s extremely rare for anyone other than church ministers to be paid. I’ve got mixed feelings on the subject but generally it seems like musicians are largely taken for granted and are often not appreciated. Are they any less important than administrators or media directors? I don’t think so. I think there is a lot to be said for volunteering but I wonder if people who lead worship teams should be paid something, particularly if their role takes up a significant portion of their time. I loved your suggestion of thanking and blessing people for their service. I don’t think we do this enough.
Agree absolutely. Before I became Christian I experienced in the secular music industry it was ALWAYS the musicians that were expected to play for free routinely whilst everyone else got paid; and to be honest the church is not dissimilar. The point is, what sort of worship experience and culture do you want, because if you want simple worship that someone can lead simply and everyone be ok with that, then that’s fine, but if the church culture is hungry for a bigger production then it’s pure hypocrisy to expect so much labour for no renumeration while others’ roles and time is valued and paid for.
If the church wants to be blessed by their worship ministry, they should invest in them. It doesn't mean that all the musicians should be paid but they should be appreciated.
My highest priority has always been to serve the Lord with my gifts, and trust Him that He'll provide and move His people to do so. It hasn't worked out that way. I can't pay my bills. Please don't give me a glib reponse like "Well then you should be doing something else." I've tried everything, faithfully followed His leading, and He's always led me back to music (and not blessed anything else.) And I can't pay my bills.
That's awesome that your priority is to serve Him with your gifts! Don't let frustration burn you out from the overwhelming joy of serving the King! "If any of you lacks wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all generously without reproach and it will be given to him." James 1:5 My advice would be to seek God and His righteousness and all these other things will be added. Seek Him in prayer, through His Word, and through the wise council of your pastors or mentors in your life that will tell you the truth. Not someone who will tell you what you want to hear. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy" Proverbs 27:6 Hope you find this encouraging and helpful. Blessings
You should not be playing for free…..like never. Playing for free is totally unacceptable….and if you cannot pay your bills, you should raise your rates.
If music is your only talent, why not freelance online? Play at weddings? There are many people looking for music professionals for certain events. You can even play at a densely populated area or mall, etc. I also doubt that you have only one talent. You have a brain, we all do. That means you have the ability to learn something else, and I don’t see it wise to close oneself in a box of I can or can’t. I encourage you to use the most complex machine in the universe, the one between your ears, and see what new things you can learn.
I've played at churches over the years for free and for fun. I never needed the money. But there was a single mother there, a choir director who could have really developed the music program there. Her kids wrre eating pizza every night. She asked them for a measly $15 K, and this was a big church. She finally had to move on in order to feed her kids.
Mil gracias a todos los que hicieron posible que este material se publicara. El señor les continúe bendiciendo y guiando para ayudar a otros que tanto lo necesitamos.
I also believe it a good idea to try to keep the ministry of the music service amongst members. Nothing wrong with having guest singers/ musicians from time to time, just not full time.
I played for years as a volunteer and then was offered a paying position playing the drums. I am a professional drummer playing in bands and teaching 30 students per week, so this is a full time vocation for me. I’m blessed to be paid, I didn’t ask to be paid, but the church offered so I gladly accepted! I don’t think non-believers should be paid unless it’s in a temporary, substitute position. I remember a sound man was being paid only to find out later that he was a Buddhist!
It’s funny how this is even considered a question , yet a visiting minister or evangelist who travel expect to be paid when they go somewhere to preach..they’re using their gift to minister to others just like we are .How would the pastor feel if he receives a card on pastor appreciation Sunday saying “thanks for doing this for God”🙄🙄
Anyone who is in a role of leadership putting in several hours a week should be compensated if the church has the means. Even a small amount goes a long way in showing appreciation. And for some, may be blessing of provision. What is a slap in the face is when you serve without expectations for years, many hours a week, decide the time has come to step aside, and all of a sudden there are funds to pay to fill that position out of desperation.
I remember seeing a clip of Floyd Crammer when he was at a middle school function with one of his grandsons. It was a relative small group in a small school auditorium. At the end of the school function one of the teachers recognized him and ask if he would play something on the piano before they dismissed. The old upright piano was in a location where the school kids could bang on the keys as they walked by it through out the school year. Floyd Crammer got up from his seat with the most polite smile and acknowledge that he would be more than happy too. No complaints about the looks or the condition that the piano had gave way too. He played a most beautiful rendition of "Last Date". His audience was very receptive and so honored to hear him play in person. No charge. At the end he got up and thank them as if he was being paid $100,000 for his performance. His pay was a standing ovation. He was all smiles and quite gracious to all that were there to hear him. I learned a lot from that clip. I had witnessed a real musician that had earned the highest degree of respect that can be given. Yes, he was playing on the Home Court. Yes, he did his very best. No one was disappointed. I don't want God to be disappointed in me.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion. God was glorified. If the pastor follows God’s leading…. The church will prosper with or without payed musicians or even no musician at all.
Mr. Kauflin gave plenty of Scripture to support for paying musicians. But, people say they don't see or understand what to do. If someone doesn't need to be paid for whatever reason, that's fine. But, the church should be able and willing to pay them.
first off... to say that Nehemiah scripture is "old testament" trying to discredit the validity to pay a hard working musician is wrong. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill them. as tithing is found before the law, during the law, and after. nehemiah was showing us what a temple out of order looked like. bring the tithe back to the store house, and have those musicians come back. Also.. Serving DOES NOT MEAN FREE! servants in the Bible got paid and the very least fed!!!
I once attended a church where their talent pool wasn't deep enough to field an entire praise team. So the church contracted out professional musicians to fill in the gaps. The problem with that approach was that some of the volnteer musicians became disgruntled over this policy because they were playing along side musicians who were getting paid. I am currently playing for a church as a volunteer. However, the amount of time that is required of me to play as a volunteer is miniaml. In one church where I played as a voluteer, the music director began putting more demands on me that required more hassle and more of my time. At that point, I told the music director that if I am going to do all the things that he wanted me to do that I am going to need to be on the payroll. At that point, I was told to pack my stuff and hit the road.
I play keys for my church. I have always wanted to play keys since 7 years old and I started playing in church at 16. I love what I do and I do it for God. I have only been paid for playing at my home church these past 3 years. I have never or will serve God for money. I loved God before being compensated, and I still love God now.
Our congregation is so full of talented musicians that they don't need another drummer, especially one 69 years old that's been doing it for about 45 years. Now I am happy God's opened a door for me to play out with a duet using guitar/ songwriting gift in secular settings mixing gospel/oldies/ originals to inspire and entertain some who may or may not be believers. I find it rewarding and work for pay/food and tips....although, by God's grace and kindness, would enjoy ministering even if I wasn't being paid.I have always desired to take my musical gift OUTSIDE the four walls of Sunday morning in a more evangelical outreach venue.
Great conversation! I heard a lot about honoring the Lord with our service and talents, but I didn't hear a lot about our enduring heavenly reward. Christvsaid to labor for that which does not perish, for the heavenly reward, where neither thief breaks in, neither moth nor rust destroy. For me, this is a better motivator than money (if one truly believes that).
Issue is defining what is a gift. Are there a doctors that are members of the church should they share their gift or an electricians, plumbers, carpenters…etc. Churches would never go without free maintenance or healthcare. Being a musician is as much of a trade/gift as any of the trades and skills mentioned above. It’s only musicians that are not treated as a legitimate profession. Just saying..God Bless.
I was paid when I was the music ministry leader. When I resigned/retired I became the drummer. I no longer get paid and do not expect nor think I should get paid. I am having the time of my life playing my drums for Jesus and my friends and with my friends. I am thankful for the opportunity to share my gifts, that God gave me. God has always provided for me and my family. Playing is part of the "offerings" part of my tithes and offerings.
I'm with you my Sister! So many people don't trust the God of the Bible. Why not trust Him! I played for a church for years and didn't get paid until new pastor took over and then I was moved on by God to leave where I didn't get paid in the next church but Spiritual promoted 🙏
What defines a "gift"? I acknowledge that God gave me a desire to be a musician, and a certain level of physical coordination. But I was not born with a natural ability to play an instrument or sing. So I invested many years taking guitar and vocal lessons, and spent countless hours practicing what i learned. I've been volunteering in worship ministry at churches for about 30 years, the last 14 as music director at our home church. When I arrive on Sunday morning I'm also bringing about $4000 of equipment I'm expected to have in order to minister my "gift".
Very interesting topic. As someone who has been a worship leader for about 20 years or so, the money never crossed my mind. No one in my band ever got paid but everyone still showed up to a practice sessions and prayer meetings. If God has given you a gift, is it reasonable to ask your church for money? I have been there as a full time worship leader and spent a ton of time picking out songs, practicing, praying, etc. I just dont understand why churches started paying people to play. If no one in your congregation can play something then just wait and leave the spot empty.
You should at least consider paying them for the perishable supplies they use like reeds and maintenance/upkeep on their equipment. You can keep that empty seat. I left a church I had been at for 25 yrs when they decided to pay the non-member guitarist $50/week but expected me as a member to play (and practice at home) the piano for free. It created dissention. That church folded within a year after I left for several reasons- but not paying the musicians was my reason for leaving.
An issue not mentioned is that when you do not have that role available. Mentioned is "there may be someone who can fill that role", but many times there are not. Therefore in order to proceed with a music program with that essential role, then looking outside is the only option. It's no different than a company needing to fill an open role. If there are no capable internal hires, then the company must look outside. And yes, all of the musicians should be paid in my opinion.
I know of a large, well-known church that hires unbelieving musicians. They don't seek them out but there is no vetting of musicians they bring in as long as they are professionals and dress properly.
Yes, they should be payed, but, there have to be some conditions to consider like :time dedicated for the service, personal and family economic conditions, and others. It is fear according to the Bible that the worker is worthy of the salary, and "those who serve in the altar must eat from the altar" 1 Cor. 9:13-14. Of course that should not be the mean motivation to serve to God who gives you all things and has saved you, and to serve church which is a great honor and privilege! I have known churches where their servants don't have enough to live and churches are not sensitive and mature enough to provide for their needs. There has to be a balance depending on the churches context and conditions.
Playing for free is totally unaccceptable, and the practice of not paying the musicians is a pure disgrace for the church.…The fact that this topic is discussed at all, just says it all….It’s also pretty lousy argument that because being able to play an instrument is “a gift” (much in the same way that healing, tongues and miracles are gifts), you should not be paid as a musician..LOL. To become an accomplished musician “the gift” will not even help you even an inch, but 20-20years of hard work and countless of hours of practice will. There is no real difference between becoming a professional musician and becoming a doctor, or a mechanical engineer. both is a SKILL which needs to be honed and learned( Only difference is that it usually takes much longer to become a musician) We have an ugly tendency to spiritualize everything….If musician doesn’t get paid, the pastor shouldn’t either….and it takes much longer to be a just OK musician than to become a good pastor (maybe because the pastor only need to have “the gift”)
I wonder if Jesus's words in John 10:12-13 apply here: "He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep." Not bashing those who get 'paid to play' but I am speaking in love for the church.
Interesting topic. At one point the term "serving the church". Was made, at another point "serving the Lord". Was made. When you stated serving the church it was about getting paid, when you mentioned serving the Lord it was about volunteering. Here is a happy medium. "Do all things in moderation". Provide the musicians with strings batteries, reeds, bows (violin, chello) pedals, drum skins, general wear and tear repair for their instruments. Provide sustanance for the day, and twice a year dedicate an offering to them and split it up between them. If any musician complains that they think they deserve more because they are a better musician they do not have a right heart. If any musician complains that their compensation wasnt enough they do not have the right heart. The Bible says, the Lord shall supply all my needs according to His riches and Glory. 2. Everything you do, do as unto the Lord. Concentrate on your Character over your gift. Your heart more than what you can get. It is better to give than recieve. 3. However warning to Church leaders who are paid by the church full time as a makeing a living. Do not abuse your position, and remember your musicians and volunteers are the Church. You get taken care of by them. Historically Paul the Apostle was a tent maker and did not burden the Church with himself makeing a living. But accepted offerings to get to his next destination in another country or part of a country or city. As well the offering was given to another church in need. When all is said and done our gifts do not get us into heaven, but giving our heart to Christ does. Remaining faithfull, humble, contrite, and Loving God first and formost and Loving our neighbor as ourselves is the priority. Takeing a break if needed should be acceptable. Remember God did not make man for the sabbath, but made the the sabbath for man. Rest.
The issue comes in when the pastor treats the volunteer musicians like employees, and only addresses them when he feels they are not perfect. The musicians are as much a part of the service as the pastor and others serving are, regardless of their roles, and the issue of money usually comes up when people feel unappreciated (not under-appreciated). Your heart is where your treasure lies, and if you're spending thousands on gear to improve the church service (which NO other groups in the church do), maybe it's understandable why money comes up when things aren't going well. Personally, I'm not sure that musicians need to be paid, but what I do know is that usually the pastors drive fancy cars and Harleys and some muso's struggle to feed their families. I have friends who moved to another church that would support them because our church refused to, and they served incredibly faithfully for close to 15 years. The pastors live in lavish homes and the muso's put in the same amount of effort/money, the least churches can do is examine their hearts. I could go on ranting for hours, but this topic is routed in greed, not love. Support your church so there can be FOOD in the house, not designer sneakers!
It is better for the church to offer something to the musicians. If they want it, it's there. If they don't, that's fine too. A good person feels better about offering something to someone doing a job for them. Anybody can be stingy, & then conjure up some justification for it. (I.e. offering your talent/gift). There are communities that simply don't have the native talent to create a dynamic, & moving worship service. Also, its apples to oranges to compare singers with trained musicians.
Great Topic! and Great to see And Meet you David! I have A Bunch of Sovereign Grace Music CD's.... I think You do Percussions ? There is a Lot Of Good Contemp . Worship music out there but you guys have brought it to a different level !!! I live in upstate N.Y. and just took a trip to Long Island to go to the beach and I have a tradition now of listening to " Sooner count the stars " On the way to the Beach. Just something about that music and Going to the Beach. And the Theme of the Triune God In all the Songs is Profound! that CD was Holy Spirit Driven ! Even the Way Drums And Percussions are played Is outstanding! great Job Bob and David! And I feel like I know all of you! I do Play guitar and have done some of the songs at church ! Praying That you Folks will Write some more songs for Rebecca Elliot and Kate Degraide to sing ! God Bless You All !
The time a church musician spends to perform professionally is vast. Home practicing, rehearsals, transportation, equipment, meetings, online meetings, and then the 30 to 40 min ministering the church. Of course they should be compensated. If any musician don't want to charge for their service, that's fine and another subject altogether. Bottom line, yes they should be paid.
I've played at our church for about 7-8 years now and never asked to be paid, and a couple others prior to that. Although it is has come to light that some non-team leaders receive some compensation, it isn't worth those relationships to make a big deal about it. However, I recently I have been asked to help with some guitar stuff equipment wise (putting together a board) and teaching some less experienced players to use it and maybe even some lessons if those players are willing. With that, I did ask for some compensation for the extra time which I feel is not out of bounds. It involves a specific skill I have crafted, although not perfectly nor do I know it all, but would require a good amount of extra time. This is an interesting discussion and hard to come up with a good answer, and appears to be coming from someone who does get paid a "stipend" which is an interesting term here. I cant help but wonder how you separate the two between someone like these guys who get paid, or a pastor, etc. and those who just "serve" the Church. A lot of gray area here, does not seem to be a good answer or explanation. It also does not really change my mind about just doing regular services to serve and because I love it. Although, a different discussion is how it would be nice to be appreciated for that time and for your efforts in other ways from pastoral staff, besides a rare canned thank you to the team as a whole. That has been a bigger issue I have seen.
My stance is always that it depends from churches to churches and person to person but the answer should never be an absolute yes or no. Remember that there are literally many churches who differ traditions to tradition. Some have less talented musicians while others are off the roof. Some churches have spontaneous moment(which requires disciplined musicians), and other churches have record making musicians and perhaps even amateur volunteers. Again. person to person - may their hearts be in the Lord. And church to church. I will mention that there are people who live off being musicians and churches should really think about using their gifts but please do not ever settle for someone who obviously isn't a believer.
I believe that if any church member is going to be working fulltime in any assembly. They should be paid. Whether it be a Pastor, a Secretary or a Musician. Sounds like the two of you both host and guest are speaking about situations at churches where musicians are working full time in the world and playing in chuch on Sundays and expecting no pay. The two things are totally dufferent. Different chuches have diffetent needs and circumstances and both positions should be respected. God bless you all.
I think every church should have an honest discussion about this. They should first pray for God's vision for the church and see how the use of the funding fits because every church is different and every community's needs are different. We rent from a local high school's auditorium for Sunday worship because the rent can bless the school to fund their extracurricular activities. Not all musicians are gifted or naturally talented. They spent countless hours practicing to hone their craft. And I rarely hear of professional musicians getting company-sponsored health insurance and etc... Most musicians work in a gig economy (highly unstable). I don't believe God's blessing is exclusive to only those within the church. I agree that the intention matters. Hiring pro musicians for the sake of better sound and worship experience (and a reason to attract newcomers), is not okay. It is like hiring a marketing team to develop a strategic plan to attract people to the church. This thought process undermines the power of the Gospel because Christ ALONE is enough to bring people together. I say start with Christ, pray for God to work through the church and communities, and then see how to use the funds wisely.
So true! I know a bunch of musicians that play off of how they are being paid, $100, $100 job, that to me is a hireling! Interrupts the flow and presence of God! If there is no music, let your voice be the music to God's ears 🙏
Overall, I have observed far more excellence in the quality of music and worship leading in the churches with full time paid musicians. That is because they have more time to develop their skills. It's sad when musicians can make a living playing in bars, while many churches don't count them worthy of getting paid.
Wow, I really appreciate your choice to look at what the Bible says about this topic. That you could so easily spend 28 minutes on this video is, I think, evidence that churches should take time to 'review' this topic with their members who serve (in whatever capacity), in the same way that churches 'review' doctrines and traditions like communion, tithing, annual holy days, etc. People are forgetful by nature, and need to have things reinforced from time to time.
I agree that we offer our gifts to God to serve the people. That being said, churches that ask for my generosity (money) should also practice the same generosity (money) towards faithful members who serve and give, not a salary but love offers. A worship leader who is leading and developing and writing and serving should definitely receive a salary. Definitely not "paying" musicians but showing them generosity thru gifts and blessings is a better more excellent way in my opinion. Unfortunately, the brother sharing has made his point moot by quoting Paul, who refused financial gifts to avoid scandal puts him an interesting mindset considering he accepts his money from the church😅😅😅 thank God for separation of church and state 😅😅😅
Bob, I really appreciate some of your practical application of the Biblical texts in correspondence with this topic. Good wisdom and insight. Your segment of focus of church around time 9:20 is overlooked often today for the purposes of entertainment to draw large numbers. Is this potentially an area today that you believe has been to the demise of a lot of once sound churches?
Absolutely. If our aim is simply to get more people to our meetings so they can "hear the gospel" we'll be tempted to use worldly means to get them in the doors, hoping God will speak to them once they're there. God, in his mercy, will certainly use that approach, but it tends to counteract the gospel message itself which involved us coming to people "in weakness and in fear and in much trembling" (1 Cor. 2:3). I don't know who said it first, but "What you win people with is what you win them to."
I am a church musician and have been playing guitar for 58 years, and never have, nor would I ever expect to get paid for it. I have been in groups that went to different churches and played there, and the whole service was mostly us : I guess you could call it a concert. Those churches would take up an offering, so in that sense I got paid once in awhile, but never as an ongoing salary at my home church. Most churches ( with the exception of huge mega churches ) can't afford to pay the musicians too. Getting paid is not what this kind of music is about, so I don't expect it. IF it wasn't for God gifting me with the ability to play my instrument, I wouldn't know which end of a guitar to pick up ! Jesus said freely you have received : freely give. I told the Lord when I joined the worship team at the church I am at, that I would play every week like I would if I was playing in front of 10,000 people, even though I am usually only playing in front of 20. I personally just can't make this about money, but that is me. I am retired, with a pension and SS check, so I am doing all right, and in light of what Jesus did for me, I have no problem with doing my best at music for him, without charge.
It seems according to 1 Tim. 5:17-18 and 1 Cor. 9:4-12 the answer is a clear yes, although pastors may choose not to make use of that right, following Paul's example.
And to comment on the " Paying Musicians" ? Most churches will pay their Brethren for Trades and Work done for the Church and Family........ I think of not " Muzzling the Ox " for their services....... And yes, Far most is the Mind Of serving and ministering their gift....... So in the Big Picture, as a Deacon in My church, I think that the " Money or Pay " should be a Church Fund, Like A deacon Fund, and Distributed as Needed, for Specific needs
Not sure if youre agreeing or disagreeing with the point they are making but it is an interesting thing to consider.. what about those that provide services to the facilities that are part of the church (plumbing, grounds, etc) As a business owner of a hvac company I have struggled with recieving payment from the church when I provide a service. I have come to realize over the past few years that the building and grounds is not the church and my business is not me. Paul's argument is addressing how the people of god should care for one another especially those that are spending their whole lives, with no other source of income, being ministers of the gospel to His sheep. So I think using those verses to determine the financial obligation between anything other than the pasters/elders role is not the right application of those specific texts. Now I have done some free work and I have gotten paid for some as well for the church property and for other members of our body. I think one thing you did mention is important. It's based on need. If their is a member in the body that is struggling why would we not stop to help anyway we can without expectation of anything in return. Whoever wishes to be great in the Kingdom must become a servant. Good things to think about. I appreciate your thoughts. Blessings
You want pay. The church offers pay. You agree on how much, and you play there. You don't seek pay. The church does or doesn't offer pay, so you play there and don't take any offered pay. I don't know how this practical course needs to be complex at all, for the musician and the particular church to be equally in agreement. This also allows plenty of spare time for philosophising on what others should or shouldn't do....if you so desire.
Have you considered that songwriters and publishers have exactly the attitude you described? "I'm not serving here unless I'm getting paid." It's a different setup, but it's definitely the same heartl. "No church can be blessed by my spiritual gift of song writing unless they pay the royalties to sing my song." Or how about authors. You can't have the knowledge I have been given from the Lord unless you pay for my book. The church in America is completely built around charging for spiritual service.
So if that’s the case, no paid musicians, maybe we shouldn’t pay the pastors at all. Everyone is giving their time and their talents. I’ve never got paid and I’ve been serving for 20 years, but I think my mind has been changing point that it feels like they are getting away with something they know they should have been doing.
Except 1 Tim. 5:17-18: “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.””
@@SovereignGraceMusic I don’t understand how churches can pay their accountants their janitors, but yet seem to not pay musicians that are there a day in and day out playing and also rehearsing and also prepping for the gathering of the brothers and sisters. It is also time and I understand that you’re saying that we have to use her gifts but also your gift of teaching and preaching can be used without getting a salary as well. Or don’t you think that each one has to maintain their household afloat?
Greeting people, ushering, handing out bulletins and collecting offerings are legitimate ways to serve a congregation but none require study, practice or expertise. Such is not the case with skilled musicians. Having said that, I don't know if churches should pay musicians or not.
Is membership an issue? Are churches country clubs, islands unto themselves? Are visiting christians unable to contribute? All christians have something to contribute to all churches, whether they are members of that particular church or not. God is one, as all christians should be. To answer your question, I would suggest that you pay the professional musicians and serious music students. For about 15 years I played in worship bands as an amateur. I can attest that God pays his laborers well, even if it is not with money. Now, as I begin a "twilight career" as a christian musician, a worship leader, the path I recognize that God has set before me, I am wondering how this can be a viable career. Sacred music is a ministry and those of us who take that authority seriously know how to serve the whole church.
The Gifts of the spirit are not the same as playing and instrument, that is a talent that needs Years of investing time, money, and sacrifice. Go without a Bass player? Humm? That's the foundation so it would have to be like an acoustic set, otherwise it is not going to sound full and complete!
Good conversation. At my last church we had 3 tiers of commitment for worship musicians and it worked pretty well. 1. Those who were essentially full time staff, organized the teams, prepared the sets and arrangements, music director, ran rehearsals and communicated with the team. Also they worked in worship development teaching new players how to become a valued worship musician. These were highly skilled and paid well. 2. Regular skilled team members willing to commit to 3 weekends per month. They were typically paid for their time on a gig basis. 3. Volunteer musicians from the congregation who likely had other day jobs and preferred to give their first fruits of time and talent to serving God by serving the church. They had the least commitment requirements and filled out perhaps 50% of our musician roster which was up to 100 musicians over many different styles and venues. We rarely had guest musicians who were not members of the church but occasionally this was great.
Regarding the "I won't serve unless I'm paid" comment . . . my question to the host is this: Would you do what you are doing now and waive your current salary, and the money you are getting for this video from TH-cam? Same question for pastors. No? I guess you won't serve unless you're paid.
Thanks for the comment! To answer your question, comparing my role as director of Sovereign Grace Music to playing an instrument on a Sunday is an apples to oranges comparison for a number of reasons. First, a full time job isn’t the same as playing on Sunday once a week. Second, Scripture says that pastors/preachers specifically are to earn their living from their role when possible (1 Cor. 9:14, but also vss. 6-13). Finally, the money that Sovereign Grace Music receives from this video might be enough to buy a cup of coffee, but hardly enough to support someone! As we say in the podcast, there are certainly situations where full-time leaders and musicians should receive compensation. But we want to fight hard to cultivate an attitude in the church that counts it a joy to lay down our lives freely to serve our brothers and sisters in the church.
Wow. As one who so appreciates your music. Even more questions arise....should we for example pay Bible study leaders who spend hours preparing? Or Sunday School teachers? If a church expects a member to spend 40-60 hours of service in the church then maybe they need to be paid as they have no other time to earn money. I think you are right, it depends on the church and circumstance. I feel that music/ music teams have been elevated and foreground far above any level I see in the New Testament... that's another subject. Christ is our focus, the Scriptures are our focus. The elevation of music and music teams really bothers me...where I'm not sure what is a Christian concert and what is worship. Another topic. Thanks guys for the great discussion. The Lord created music and instruments and choirs and so on let us constantly check our motives and focus. I belong to a rural church of 50 people. So practically, (except for the minister) every person is a volunteer. Let's also question our definition of standards... acapella is also beautiful. Bless you guys. Let's all discuss in love. Bless you.
$100,000 on musicians 0_o that would fund our church plant in a poor area for 2 years. America is a crazy place. Imagine how that money could be used for the gospel elsewhere, and the cost? slightly less practiced music, using slightly worse musicians. nothing compared to paying pastors in poor areas. Makes my heart sad
If you don't want to apply things from the old Testament, don't preach from it. Where in the Bible does it say you have to be a member of a particular church in order to serve it? This is manipulation.
Your use of 1 Peter, you might as well state that teachers (they speak), preachers (they speak) should not get paid either. The scripture about the ox is not teaching that people should get paid. If you use that scripture, why not pay anyone that labors? The ox needs to eat.
So the passages that this statement occurs in are 1 Corinthians 9 and he also states it briefly in 1 Timothy. And in context Paul is making a point that those that spend their lives teaching and preaching the gospel (ie. Himself, the other apostles in those days, missionaries, teachers/elders/pastors in the church who are fully devoted to caring for the body) have a right to provisions from those they serve. And it is their joy to provide that. He states it pretty plainly. The point here that Bob is making is that it's hard to make an argument for paying anyone else in roles other than pastor/teacher because the bible doesn't make one. It's an argument from silence which is usually a unhelpful road to go down. Hope you find this helpful. Blessings
After reading other comments, I will add this: most of the praise teams/bands in my area have other 'gigs' and are paid for their performance. Carnivals, fairs, youth events, conferences, private parties, etc... Some have made their own dvds. A few are in music education, so they are already very popular with young people. I think that my church in particular does pay one music director, who plans music for three services (traditional and CMC). This person also sings, plays instruments, and selects music for the 'volunteer musicians'-who are really members of his band. Everyone one of the band is also a member of the group that is paid for other events. They practice at the church for 2 hours a week. I don't mind, if we give this director some remuneration, but since the rehearsals also double as rehearsals for their paid gigs, I don't think that we should be paying them. They get a whole lot of exposure and advertising. If we start paying musicians, how about paying Sunday School teachers? Or nursery workers? I taught kids for years. I also spent at least 8 hours in preparations, and 2 hours each Sunday teaching. Teachers of adults probably spend at least that much time. Where does the paying stop?
It stops when the person not being paid says so. Otherwise, people deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor, unless they know it’s “volunteer” going in.
I grew up in church all my life as a Pastor’s kid. Since I was five years old, I had an immense passion for music, and I know that was given to me by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No musicians were paid back in the day in my church.
Growing up as a musician in church, I can tell you that people do not understand the commitment and time it takes To develop that ministry and the financial commitment it takes as a musician. Do you “expect” to get paid no, but when people bless you with something man it is SUCH A BLESSING.
One day, the Lord put in my heart, take care of my musicians every chance that you get and let them know how much I love and appreciate them. Bless them every chance that you get.
I am ministering for free at my home church because I know that is where God planted my family and we are super blessed there. I know and love the heart of my pastors and if God leads them to pay me then praise God but if not, that is more than ok. I do NOT expect to get paid because that is why I’m there.
But just for some who have no idea of what kind of commitment it takes, starting Sunday night I am asking for the Lord to give me songs for the following week, I choose the songs and send them out on Monday. I sequences and buy any gear that is needed usually spending around $160 a week. Then every day I am rehearsing the songs for at least an hour. That does not include time spent downloading and separating tracks or doing anything like that. We run the set list Sunday morning at 9 AM and we do not leave until about 1 PM.
Some people may not agree with me, but that’s OK. Bible says it is always better to give than to receive, and that can go either way, right? Well, I think it’s meant for both sides. Musicians should give of their gifts but churches GIVE as well.
Even if I’M not paid, if I invite a guest vocalist or musician I pay them because of what God asked me to do.
So In summation, You can never go wrong with giving, whether you are the church or the musician! And no one should take advantage of the other
I totally agree with you and i thank you for appreciating your musicians. Im sure it means alot for them. May God bless you!
@MADE4WORSHIP
you were fortunate...I led the Hymn singing in my church for close to 20 years.. I was kind of volunteered by a deacon who no longer wished to do it.. I thought it would be great... because I thought .. now I would be able to pick out the hymns...WRONG!...
I was told that all songs were picked by the pastor... who would give me a list on Wednesday nights.. for me to look over so I would be ready on Sunday AM...
I also played guitar in bands around town at the time.. and though we made a measly earning.. like $60.00 on a GOOD night....I NEVER expected or even thought about getting paid for the time it took me to learn those songs
and while you are right...(I suppose).. to think that way..in regards to being compensated for time spent practicing at home... since hours of my life were spent practicing at home... I NEVER went to a gig expecting to be compensated for it... nor did the thought ever cross my mind..
between my secular job... and Sunday School preparations.. and practicing for gigs... I was lucky if I had 2 hours a week to spend with the family.. (to be honest though.. I was working 80+ hours a week at my job)..
my children grew up without their dad... and I never saw a penny for that lost time..
at least YOU had the privilege of choosing which songs you were going to play.. what a blessing..
I played drums for over 30 years in 4 different churches. The thought of getting paid never crossed my mind. I felt it was an honor to use my talent, which God gave to me, to help people enter into the presence of the Lord and prepare their hearts for the word.
Totally agree with you! Have to allow God to make away for you! People just don't trust the God of the Bible!
Yeah true, but incentivising either by encourgement or otherwise for the efforts put in by church musicians should be done. If churches don't wish to pay, then they should not criminalise us for not serving during weekly services apart from Sundays.
In short don't have high expectations, have mutual respect. Period.
Oh you just made my day. Thank you 😊. I do the same. When I played in the world I was paid. But to charge God doesn’t seem right. I know folks who have full time 5-6 figure jobs who are saved , yet charge churches and get upset when you have this conversation. I’m 63 and when I was younger we got something to eat and sometimes a “ love offering “, and we were fine with that ! Over 20 years ago I told a former Pastor that the world has gotten into the church and taken over. This is sad . God can’t be happy.
Then you’re fine just serving as a volunteer drummer.. if you studied music, play mutiple instruments, bring software to the equation, can teach/develop other musicians, understand and update technology as it releases.. then you should be paid. There’s a difference from someone who enjoys using their gift and someone who is a professional and lives off of his/her skill.
@@Okamiiee Bingo! 7-18-23
It does speak of paying musicians in the bible:
I also discovered that the Levites had not been given their prescribed portions of food, so they and the singers who were to conduct the worship services had all returned to work their fields. I immediately confronted the leaders and demanded, “Why has the Temple of God been neglected?” Then I called all the Levites back again and restored them to their proper duties.
Nehemiah 13:10-11 NLT
This. At the end of the day, our duty as worship musicians is to give our best to God, NOT the leftovers of our time and energy after working a full 40 hours somewhere else. I understand smaller churches CAN'T do this but I believe if you CAN pay musicians (and media techs!) you should even if you're not able to pay much.
Here is the thing, you can never ever understand if you are not in that exact position as a Professional Musician that does music for a living. There's a huge difference, This is the reason a lot have left the church and gone to the clubs and the same church ends up preaching about them when it's the same church that made them leave. The question is where do you want them to function as musicians? Did the church buy the Keyboard or instruments for free? Or the building they are having the service? Or rent? If you leave your own profession and go to the church and not be paid then you will understand clearly and answer the questions properly. You pay them so they can focus. Music is not just a gift. You have to work on it. You have to invest in it. You also need to spend a lot of money. Requires so much time. You don't wake up and start playing music because you say it is a gift
@Pentatonickc
I think musicians... SHOULD bring their own instruments to church.. other than the piano of course... AND they should Not get paid to play in the house of God... their reward will be in heaven...
@Pentatonickc
I would not quit my day job.. to play for a church and get paid... In other words.. don't expect a church gig.. to buy you a new car or put food on your table... that is WRONG..
Music is Just that... it IS ONLY a gift... think of all the people in the world who are handicapped and would give an arm or their remaining leg.. JUST to be able to play..
and here you are expecting to be paid for something that millions can only dream of doing..
count yourself as BLESSED..... blessings do not need to come with pay..
If the church is large enough and can afford it, its ridiculous to not pay people that have cultivated a marketable skill. It should be a common sense issue. People take their time and energy to practice, so they can help provide an atmosphere for worship.
you are correct !
@Abmusic8623
paying people to serve God... is self serving and selfish..
As a Catholic, I'm amazed this is even an issue. Of course they should be paid. Persons should be able to enjoy to fruits of their labors. Come to an agreement on time requirements and the stipend involved.
@gene8172
I think as a Catholic (been there, done that)... You naturally feel musicians should get paid... in my 20 years of being raised a Catholic.. that is how I saw the Catholic church..
IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY WITH THEM
I could not afford a Catholic wedding.. I was married at a small Baptist church down the street.. for $25.00 and THAT was only because the pastor said .
.If we feel like giving something we can
I am very upset.. that everything in Catholicism is about paying people...
Nobody in the House of God... should get paid EVER.. this includes the Priests in Catholic churches.. and Pastors in the protestant churches..
Ministers harangue us to tithe (OT),take a salary, but insist the music director “do it for the Lord.”
Check out 1 Chronicles 23:1-5, Nehemiah 13:4-13. And “the workman is worthy of his wages.”
Regardless of which side of the discussion one agrees with, I've found this to be the most balanced and scripture centered discussion that I've come across. Thanks for posting this video and helping me to think scripturally through this issue!
I think the church should also consider a musician who is always available and does not work elsewhere. That is not paying but looking after or appreciating a gift.
I am a church musician. If you expect to have excellent music, which at my church is an essential element of worship, you have to support your musicians. If I put in 10+ hours a week to learn practice rehearse and perform songs, not including all the hours of training and musical maintenance. People think musicians are just doing what we love, and we do hopefully love it, but we are the same needs as everyone else. We have bills to pay. Just like you. It is crazy to expect people to work their butts off for free.
You are well underestimating the time and effort that goes into making powerful music. If I can’t be financially supported for my work, I must go elsewhere to work and I will no longer be able to make the music nearly as well because I wouldn’t have the time to make it work.
Yes!!!! Sadly this is such an important topic. My parents are pastors and I am the worship leader for our church, and it sad to say that we have had a few people that have brought this topic to us. Players that demand to be paid, and when denied they leave, or church member asking for the players. We have talked with our team about this, and have always stood firm that this is your service to God. This is our gift back to the Lord, who gave it all for us, but when you do this, you water down your worship and gift. Im so thankful that our church is simple, if no instruments can be played, we will sing just the same. If we don't have our worship singers, we sing the same as a congragation. Thank you for this amazing podcast!!!
There’s a difference between professionals who direct the choirs/teams, play organ or piano, are responsible to facilitate worship, and hobbyists who “do it for the Lord” as their contribution.
Hope the pastors and worship leaders are also doing it for the Lord by not getting paid as well.
@@calebrockefeller6726you just spoke something powerful!💯
@@carolynboxmeyer7622, your response seems a bit harsh. As a church musician, this is a gift from God that I will use for His glory, regardless of compensation. The issue lies with the mindset of the musicians. If being paid supercedes their desire to edify the body of Christ and bring hearts closer to God, then there is a problem.
I truly believe that being a musician in church, regardless of skill level, is an honor and above all, a ministry. Music is spiritual in nature, and that alone makes it just as important a role as preaching, because it creates an atmosphere for God to reach the hearts of people. If the church desires to bless their musicians for their contributions, then that is their preference. I just don't think money should be anyone's focus in ministry. If we honor God in all things, He will bless us. "But seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. "(Matthew 6:33)
@@michaelrowser5647 Pastors expect to be paid and everyone else to "serve the Lord". Brainwashing, gaslighting and greed. Reality is harsh.
In the UK it’s extremely rare for anyone other than church ministers to be paid. I’ve got mixed feelings on the subject but generally it seems like musicians are largely taken for granted and are often not appreciated. Are they any less important than administrators or media directors? I don’t think so. I think there is a lot to be said for volunteering but I wonder if people who lead worship teams should be paid something, particularly if their role takes up a significant portion of their time. I loved your suggestion of thanking and blessing people for their service. I don’t think we do this enough.
Agree absolutely. Before I became Christian I experienced in the secular music industry it was ALWAYS the musicians that were expected to play for free routinely whilst everyone else got paid; and to be honest the church is not dissimilar. The point is, what sort of worship experience and culture do you want, because if you want simple worship that someone can lead simply and everyone be ok with that, then that’s fine, but if the church culture is hungry for a bigger production then it’s pure hypocrisy to expect so much labour for no renumeration while others’ roles and time is valued and paid for.
If the church wants to be blessed by their worship ministry, they should invest in them. It doesn't mean that all the musicians should be paid but they should be appreciated.
My highest priority has always been to serve the Lord with my gifts, and trust Him that He'll provide and move His people to do so. It hasn't worked out that way. I can't pay my bills. Please don't give me a glib reponse like "Well then you should be doing something else." I've tried everything, faithfully followed His leading, and He's always led me back to music (and not blessed anything else.) And I can't pay my bills.
That's awesome that your priority is to serve Him with your gifts! Don't let frustration burn you out from the overwhelming joy of serving the King! "If any of you lacks wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all generously without reproach and it will be given to him." James 1:5
My advice would be to seek God and His righteousness and all these other things will be added. Seek Him in prayer, through His Word, and through the wise council of your pastors or mentors in your life that will tell you the truth. Not someone who will tell you what you want to hear. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy" Proverbs 27:6
Hope you find this encouraging and helpful.
Blessings
You should not be playing for free…..like never. Playing for free is totally unacceptable….and if you cannot pay your bills, you should raise your rates.
If music is your only talent, why not freelance online? Play at weddings? There are many people looking for music professionals for certain events. You can even play at a densely populated area or mall, etc. I also doubt that you have only one talent. You have a brain, we all do. That means you have the ability to learn something else, and I don’t see it wise to close oneself in a box of I can or can’t. I encourage you to use the most complex machine in the universe, the one between your ears, and see what new things you can learn.
I've played at churches over the years for free and for fun. I never needed the money. But there was a single mother there, a choir director who could have really developed the music program there. Her kids wrre eating pizza every night. She asked them for a measly $15 K, and this was a big church. She finally had to move on in order to feed her kids.
Mil gracias a todos los que hicieron posible que este material se publicara.
El señor les continúe bendiciendo y guiando para ayudar a otros que tanto lo necesitamos.
I also believe it a good idea to try to keep the ministry of the music service amongst members. Nothing wrong with having guest singers/ musicians from time to time, just not full time.
I played for years as a volunteer and then was offered a paying position playing the drums. I am a professional drummer playing in bands and teaching 30 students per week, so this is a full time vocation for me. I’m blessed to be paid, I didn’t ask to be paid, but the church offered so I gladly accepted!
I don’t think non-believers should be paid unless it’s in a temporary, substitute position. I remember a sound man was being paid only to find out later that he was a Buddhist!
It’s funny how this is even considered a question , yet a visiting minister or evangelist who travel expect to be paid when they go somewhere to preach..they’re using their gift to minister to others just like we are .How would the pastor feel if he receives a card on pastor appreciation Sunday saying “thanks for doing this for God”🙄🙄
Anyone who is in a role of leadership putting in several hours a week should be compensated if the church has the means. Even a small amount goes a long way in showing appreciation. And for some, may be blessing of provision. What is a slap in the face is when you serve without expectations for years, many hours a week, decide the time has come to step aside, and all of a sudden there are funds to pay to fill that position out of desperation.
Love the discussion here. Love the point made at 18:30, debunking the idea that worship needs a full band or a arena concert vibe
I remember seeing a clip of Floyd Crammer when he was at a middle school function with one of his grandsons.
It was a relative small group in a small school auditorium.
At the end of the school function one of the teachers recognized him and ask if he would play something on the piano before they dismissed.
The old upright piano was in a location where the school kids could bang on the keys as they walked by it through out the school year.
Floyd Crammer got up from his seat with the most polite smile and acknowledge that he would be more than happy too.
No complaints about the looks or the condition that the piano had gave way too.
He played a most beautiful rendition of "Last Date". His audience was very receptive and so honored to hear him play in person.
No charge.
At the end he got up and thank them as if he was being paid $100,000 for his performance. His pay was a standing ovation.
He was all smiles and quite gracious to all that were there to hear him.
I learned a lot from that clip.
I had witnessed a real musician that had earned the highest degree of respect that can be given.
Yes, he was playing on the Home Court. Yes, he did his very best. No one was disappointed.
I don't want God to be disappointed in me.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion. God was glorified. If the pastor follows God’s leading…. The church will prosper with or without payed musicians or even no musician at all.
Mr. Kauflin gave plenty of Scripture to support for paying musicians. But, people say they don't see or understand what to do. If someone doesn't need to be paid for whatever reason, that's fine. But, the church should be able and willing to pay them.
first off... to say that Nehemiah scripture is "old testament" trying to discredit the validity to pay a hard working musician is wrong. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill them. as tithing is found before the law, during the law, and after. nehemiah was showing us what a temple out of order looked like. bring the tithe back to the store house, and have those musicians come back.
Also.. Serving DOES NOT MEAN FREE! servants in the Bible got paid and the very least fed!!!
Well said
Thank you sovereign grace.. Your podcasts are so helpful beyond we could ever imagine. God bless you.
I once attended a church where their talent pool wasn't deep enough to field an entire praise team. So the church contracted out professional musicians to fill in the gaps. The problem with that approach was that some of the volnteer musicians became disgruntled over this policy because they were playing along side musicians who were getting paid.
I am currently playing for a church as a volunteer. However, the amount of time that is required of me to play as a volunteer is miniaml. In one church where I played as a voluteer, the music director began putting more demands on me that required more hassle and more of my time. At that point, I told the music director that if I am going to do all the things that he wanted me to do that I am going to need to be on the payroll. At that point, I was told to pack my stuff and hit the road.
Did you leave when he told you to hit the road?
@@abbeyna01I hope he did!
My husband and I listened to you guys ...very interesting topics. Thanks and more Blessings to you both and Sovereign Grace as a whole 🙏
For context, Bach was a salaried church musician……
I agree on the important of being connected to the churches. What are we bringing to the table
I play keys for my church. I have always wanted to play keys since 7 years old and I started playing in church at 16. I love what I do and I do it for God.
I have only been paid for playing at my home church these past 3 years. I have never or will serve God for money. I loved God before being compensated, and I still love God now.
Our congregation is so full of talented musicians that they don't need another drummer, especially one 69 years old that's been doing it for about 45 years. Now I am happy God's opened a door for me to play out with a duet using guitar/ songwriting gift in secular settings mixing gospel/oldies/ originals to inspire and entertain some who may or may not be believers. I find it rewarding and work for pay/food and tips....although, by God's grace and kindness, would enjoy ministering even if I wasn't being paid.I have always desired to take my musical gift OUTSIDE the four walls of Sunday morning in a more evangelical outreach venue.
Great conversation! I heard a lot about honoring the Lord with our service and talents, but I didn't hear a lot about our enduring heavenly reward. Christvsaid to labor for that which does not perish, for the heavenly reward, where neither thief breaks in, neither moth nor rust destroy. For me, this is a better motivator than money (if one truly believes that).
Issue is defining what is a gift. Are there a doctors that are members of the church should they share their gift or an electricians, plumbers, carpenters…etc. Churches would never go without free maintenance or healthcare. Being a musician is as much of a trade/gift as any of the trades and skills mentioned above. It’s only musicians that are not treated as a legitimate profession. Just saying..God Bless.
Literally, the reason we have Bach's Cantatas for the last 273 years is because he was commissioned by the Church.
I’m a christian rap musician and I have been struggling with this issue for a long time thank you for this insight.
I was paid when I was the music ministry leader. When I resigned/retired I became the drummer. I no longer get paid and do not expect nor think I should get paid. I am having the time of my life playing my drums for Jesus and my friends and with my friends. I am thankful for the opportunity to share my gifts, that God gave me. God has always provided for me and my family. Playing is part of the "offerings" part of my tithes and offerings.
I'm with you my Sister! So many people don't trust the God of the Bible. Why not trust Him! I played for a church for years and didn't get paid until new pastor took over and then I was moved on by God to leave where I didn't get paid in the next church but Spiritual promoted 🙏
Sigo con mucho gusto todo lo que se traduce en español de Sovering grace!! Muchas gracias!! 💕💖💕
What defines a "gift"? I acknowledge that God gave me a desire to be a musician, and a certain level of physical coordination. But I was not born with a natural ability to play an instrument or sing. So I invested many years taking guitar and vocal lessons, and spent countless hours practicing what i learned. I've been volunteering in worship ministry at churches for about 30 years, the last 14 as music director at our home church. When I arrive on Sunday morning I'm also bringing about $4000 of equipment I'm expected to have in order to minister my "gift".
Very interesting topic. As someone who has been a worship leader for about 20 years or so, the money never crossed my mind. No one in my band ever got paid but everyone still showed up to a practice sessions and prayer meetings. If God has given you a gift, is it reasonable to ask your church for money? I have been there as a full time worship leader and spent a ton of time picking out songs, practicing, praying, etc. I just dont understand why churches started paying people to play. If no one in your congregation can play something then just wait and leave the spot empty.
... and see how that works out.
You should at least consider paying them for the perishable supplies they use like reeds and maintenance/upkeep on their equipment.
You can keep that empty seat. I left a church I had been at for 25 yrs when they decided to pay the non-member guitarist $50/week but expected me as a member to play (and practice at home) the piano for free. It created dissention. That church folded within a year after I left for several reasons- but not paying the musicians was my reason for leaving.
An issue not mentioned is that when you do not have that role available. Mentioned is "there may be someone who can fill that role", but many times there are not. Therefore in order to proceed with a music program with that essential role, then looking outside is the only option. It's no different than a company needing to fill an open role. If there are no capable internal hires, then the company must look outside. And yes, all of the musicians should be paid in my opinion.
Unsaved people leading worship??? How can worshipping in spirit and truth happen with goats in the worship team ??
I know of a large, well-known church that hires unbelieving musicians. They don't seek them out but there is no vetting of musicians they bring in as long as they are professionals and dress properly.
Yes, they should be payed, but, there have to be some conditions to consider like :time dedicated for the service, personal and family economic conditions, and others. It is fear according to the Bible that the worker is worthy of the salary, and "those who serve in the altar must eat from the altar" 1 Cor. 9:13-14. Of course that should not be the mean motivation to serve to God who gives you all things and has saved you, and to serve church which is a great honor and privilege! I have known churches where their servants don't have enough to live and churches are not sensitive and mature enough to provide for their needs. There has to be a balance depending on the churches context and conditions.
Playing for free is totally unaccceptable, and the practice of not paying the musicians is a pure disgrace for the church.…The fact that this topic is discussed at all, just says it all….It’s also pretty lousy argument that because being able to play an instrument is “a gift” (much in the same way that healing, tongues and miracles are gifts), you should not be paid as a musician..LOL. To become an accomplished musician “the gift” will not even help you even an inch, but 20-20years of hard work and countless of hours of practice will. There is no real difference between becoming a professional musician and becoming a doctor, or a mechanical engineer. both is a SKILL which needs to be honed and learned( Only difference is that it usually takes much longer to become a musician) We have an ugly tendency to spiritualize everything….If musician doesn’t get paid, the pastor shouldn’t either….and it takes much longer to be a just OK musician than to become a good pastor (maybe because the pastor only need to have “the gift”)
This explains why their worship is among the best there is. For some musicians, one can only think of the words of Jesus "they have had their reward".
Yessssssss a million times yes
I wonder if Jesus's words in John 10:12-13 apply here: "He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep." Not bashing those who get 'paid to play' but I am speaking in love for the church.
Thank you. This is a very good topic. God bless you abundantly.
Never answered the question but was a great conversation
Answer to the question 0:50
Interesting topic. At one point the term "serving the church". Was made, at another point "serving the Lord". Was made. When you stated serving the church it was about getting paid, when you mentioned serving the Lord it was about volunteering. Here is a happy medium. "Do all things in moderation". Provide the musicians with strings batteries, reeds, bows (violin, chello) pedals, drum skins, general wear and tear repair for their instruments. Provide sustanance for the day, and twice a year dedicate an offering to them and split it up between them. If any musician complains that they think they deserve more because they are a better musician they do not have a right heart. If any musician complains that their compensation wasnt enough they do not have the right heart. The Bible says, the Lord shall supply all my needs according to His riches and Glory. 2. Everything you do, do as unto the Lord. Concentrate on your Character over your gift. Your heart more than what you can get. It is better to give than recieve. 3. However warning to Church leaders who are paid by the church full time as a makeing a living. Do not abuse your position, and remember your musicians and volunteers are the Church. You get taken care of by them. Historically Paul the Apostle was a tent maker and did not burden the Church with himself makeing a living. But accepted offerings to get to his next destination in another country or part of a country or city. As well the offering was given to another church in need. When all is said and done our gifts do not get us into heaven, but giving our heart to Christ does. Remaining faithfull, humble, contrite, and Loving God first and formost and Loving our neighbor as ourselves is the priority. Takeing a break if needed should be acceptable. Remember God did not make man for the sabbath, but made the the sabbath for man. Rest.
The issue comes in when the pastor treats the volunteer musicians like employees, and only addresses them when he feels they are not perfect. The musicians are as much a part of the service as the pastor and others serving are, regardless of their roles, and the issue of money usually comes up when people feel unappreciated (not under-appreciated).
Your heart is where your treasure lies, and if you're spending thousands on gear to improve the church service (which NO other groups in the church do), maybe it's understandable why money comes up when things aren't going well.
Personally, I'm not sure that musicians need to be paid, but what I do know is that usually the pastors drive fancy cars and Harleys and some muso's struggle to feed their families.
I have friends who moved to another church that would support them because our church refused to, and they served incredibly faithfully for close to 15 years. The pastors live in lavish homes and the muso's put in the same amount of effort/money, the least churches can do is examine their hearts.
I could go on ranting for hours, but this topic is routed in greed, not love. Support your church so there can be FOOD in the house, not designer sneakers!
I love that you’re trying to use scripture vs using flesh to guide the topic
Wonderful discussion
Yes!
It is better for the church to offer something to the musicians. If they want it, it's there. If they don't, that's fine too. A good person feels better about offering something to someone doing a job for them. Anybody can be stingy, & then conjure up some justification for it. (I.e. offering your talent/gift). There are communities that simply don't have the native talent to create a dynamic, & moving worship service. Also, its apples to oranges to compare singers with trained musicians.
Its in service. A gift of appreciation can be thought of.
Great Topic! and Great to see And Meet you David! I have A Bunch of Sovereign Grace Music CD's.... I think You do Percussions ? There is a Lot Of Good Contemp . Worship music out there but you guys have brought it to a different level !!! I live in upstate N.Y. and just took a trip to Long Island to go to the beach and I have a tradition now of listening to " Sooner count the stars " On the way to the Beach. Just something about that music and Going to the Beach. And the Theme of the Triune God In all the Songs is Profound! that CD was Holy Spirit Driven ! Even the Way Drums And Percussions are played Is outstanding! great Job Bob and David! And I feel like I know all of you! I do Play guitar and have done some of the songs at church ! Praying That you Folks will Write some more songs for Rebecca Elliot and Kate Degraide to sing ! God Bless You All !
The time a church musician spends to perform professionally is vast. Home practicing, rehearsals, transportation, equipment, meetings, online meetings, and then the 30 to 40 min ministering the church. Of course they should be compensated. If any musician don't want to charge for their service, that's fine and another subject altogether. Bottom line, yes they should be paid.
I've played at our church for about 7-8 years now and never asked to be paid, and a couple others prior to that. Although it is has come to light that some non-team leaders receive some compensation, it isn't worth those relationships to make a big deal about it. However, I recently I have been asked to help with some guitar stuff equipment wise (putting together a board) and teaching some less experienced players to use it and maybe even some lessons if those players are willing. With that, I did ask for some compensation for the extra time which I feel is not out of bounds. It involves a specific skill I have crafted, although not perfectly nor do I know it all, but would require a good amount of extra time. This is an interesting discussion and hard to come up with a good answer, and appears to be coming from someone who does get paid a "stipend" which is an interesting term here. I cant help but wonder how you separate the two between someone like these guys who get paid, or a pastor, etc. and those who just "serve" the Church. A lot of gray area here, does not seem to be a good answer or explanation. It also does not really change my mind about just doing regular services to serve and because I love it. Although, a different discussion is how it would be nice to be appreciated for that time and for your efforts in other ways from pastoral staff, besides a rare canned thank you to the team as a whole. That has been a bigger issue I have seen.
My stance is always that it depends from churches to churches and person to person but the answer should never be an absolute yes or no. Remember that there are literally many churches who differ traditions to tradition. Some have less talented musicians while others are off the roof. Some churches have spontaneous moment(which requires disciplined musicians), and other churches have record making musicians and perhaps even amateur volunteers. Again. person to person - may their hearts be in the Lord. And church to church.
I will mention that there are people who live off being musicians and churches should really think about using their gifts but please do not ever settle for someone who obviously isn't a believer.
You guys nailed it!
I believe that if any church member is going to be working fulltime in any assembly. They should be paid. Whether it be a Pastor, a Secretary or a Musician. Sounds like the two of you both host and guest are speaking about situations at churches where musicians are working full time in the world and playing in chuch on Sundays and expecting no pay. The two things are totally dufferent. Different chuches have diffetent needs and circumstances and both positions should be respected. God bless you all.
I think every church should have an honest discussion about this. They should first pray for God's vision for the church and see how the use of the funding fits because every church is different and every community's needs are different. We rent from a local high school's auditorium for Sunday worship because the rent can bless the school to fund their extracurricular activities. Not all musicians are gifted or naturally talented. They spent countless hours practicing to hone their craft. And I rarely hear of professional musicians getting company-sponsored health insurance and etc... Most musicians work in a gig economy (highly unstable). I don't believe God's blessing is exclusive to only those within the church. I agree that the intention matters. Hiring pro musicians for the sake of better sound and worship experience (and a reason to attract newcomers), is not okay. It is like hiring a marketing team to develop a strategic plan to attract people to the church. This thought process undermines the power of the Gospel because Christ ALONE is enough to bring people together. I say start with Christ, pray for God to work through the church and communities, and then see how to use the funds wisely.
So true! I know a bunch of musicians that play off of how they are being paid, $100, $100 job, that to me is a hireling! Interrupts the flow and presence of God! If there is no music, let your voice be the music to God's ears 🙏
Great conversation
YES.
Overall, I have observed far more excellence in the quality of music and worship leading in the churches with full time paid musicians. That is because they have more time to develop their skills. It's sad when musicians can make a living playing in bars, while many churches don't count them worthy of getting paid.
Thank you for the songs . Thank you from India
Wow, I really appreciate your choice to look at what the Bible says about this topic. That you could so easily spend 28 minutes on this video is, I think, evidence that churches should take time to 'review' this topic with their members who serve (in whatever capacity), in the same way that churches 'review' doctrines and traditions like communion, tithing, annual holy days, etc. People are forgetful by nature, and need to have things reinforced from time to time.
“I want them to be concerned about, not just serving, but serving in this church….” 😬
I agree that we offer our gifts to God to serve the people. That being said, churches that ask for my generosity (money) should also practice the same generosity (money) towards faithful members who serve and give, not a salary but love offers. A worship leader who is leading and developing and writing and serving should definitely receive a salary. Definitely not "paying" musicians but showing them generosity thru gifts and blessings is a better more excellent way in my opinion. Unfortunately, the brother sharing has made his point moot by quoting Paul, who refused financial gifts to avoid scandal puts him an interesting mindset considering he accepts his money from the church😅😅😅 thank God for separation of church and state 😅😅😅
Good stuff here
Bob, I really appreciate some of your practical application of the Biblical texts in correspondence with this topic. Good wisdom and insight. Your segment of focus of church around time 9:20 is overlooked often today for the purposes of entertainment to draw large numbers. Is this potentially an area today that you believe has been to the demise of a lot of once sound churches?
Absolutely. If our aim is simply to get more people to our meetings so they can "hear the gospel" we'll be tempted to use worldly means to get them in the doors, hoping God will speak to them once they're there. God, in his mercy, will certainly use that approach, but it tends to counteract the gospel message itself which involved us coming to people "in weakness and in fear and in much trembling" (1 Cor. 2:3). I don't know who said it first, but "What you win people with is what you win them to."
I am a church musician and have been playing guitar for 58 years, and never have, nor would I ever expect to get paid for it. I have been in groups that went to different churches and played there, and the whole service was mostly us : I guess you could call it a concert. Those churches would take up an offering, so in that sense I got paid once in awhile, but never as an ongoing salary at my home church. Most churches ( with the exception of huge mega churches ) can't afford to pay the musicians too. Getting paid is not what this kind of music is about, so I don't expect it. IF it wasn't for God gifting me with the ability to play my instrument, I wouldn't know which end of a guitar to pick up ! Jesus said freely you have received : freely give. I told the Lord when I joined the worship team at the church I am at, that I would play every week like I would if I was playing in front of 10,000 people, even though I am usually only playing in front of 20. I personally just can't make this about money, but that is me. I am retired, with a pension and SS check, so I am doing all right, and in light of what Jesus did for me, I have no problem with doing my best at music for him, without charge.
Pay the musicians …..especially if you’re a large church,don’t take them for granted.enough of this ‘volunteer’ culture
The real question, should pastors be paid?
It seems according to 1 Tim. 5:17-18 and 1 Cor. 9:4-12 the answer is a clear yes, although pastors may choose not to make use of that right, following Paul's example.
Yes they should
And to comment on the " Paying Musicians" ? Most churches will pay their Brethren for Trades and Work done for the Church and Family........ I think of not " Muzzling the Ox " for their services....... And yes, Far most is the Mind Of serving and ministering their gift....... So in the Big Picture, as a Deacon in My church, I think that the " Money or Pay " should be a Church Fund, Like A deacon Fund, and Distributed as Needed, for Specific needs
Not sure if youre agreeing or disagreeing with the point they are making but it is an interesting thing to consider.. what about those that provide services to the facilities that are part of the church (plumbing, grounds, etc) As a business owner of a hvac company I have struggled with recieving payment from the church when I provide a service. I have come to realize over the past few years that the building and grounds is not the church and my business is not me. Paul's argument is addressing how the people of god should care for one another especially those that are spending their whole lives, with no other source of income, being ministers of the gospel to His sheep. So I think using those verses to determine the financial obligation between anything other than the pasters/elders role is not the right application of those specific texts. Now I have done some free work and I have gotten paid for some as well for the church property and for other members of our body. I think one thing you did mention is important. It's based on need. If their is a member in the body that is struggling why would we not stop to help anyway we can without expectation of anything in return. Whoever wishes to be great in the Kingdom must become a servant.
Good things to think about.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Blessings
You want pay. The church offers pay. You agree on how much, and you play there.
You don't seek pay. The church does or doesn't offer pay, so you play there and don't take any offered pay.
I don't know how this practical course needs to be complex at all, for the musician and the particular church to be equally in agreement.
This also allows plenty of spare time for philosophising on what others should or shouldn't do....if you so desire.
Have you considered that songwriters and publishers have exactly the attitude you described? "I'm not serving here unless I'm getting paid." It's a different setup, but it's definitely the same heartl. "No church can be blessed by my spiritual gift of song writing unless they pay the royalties to sing my song." Or how about authors. You can't have the knowledge I have been given from the Lord unless you pay for my book. The church in America is completely built around charging for spiritual service.
I think all these statements should also apply ro Pastors.... Everyone who serve in the church should be treated the same
Yes, but 1 Timothy 5:18 seems to say that elders, especially teaching elders, should be paid for their labors.
So should we only pay genitors that are members?
Queridos hnos, esta charla, ¿esta en español? Me interesa mucho el tema. No hablo inglés 😢😢😢
Estimada, puedes activar la traducción automática de You tube, te será de gran ayuda.
So if that’s the case, no paid musicians, maybe we shouldn’t pay the pastors at all. Everyone is giving their time and their talents. I’ve never got paid and I’ve been serving for 20 years, but I think my mind has been changing point that it feels like they are getting away with something they know they should have been doing.
Except 1 Tim. 5:17-18: “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.””
@@SovereignGraceMusic I don’t understand how churches can pay their accountants their janitors, but yet seem to not pay musicians that are there a day in and day out playing and also rehearsing and also prepping for the gathering of the brothers and sisters. It is also time and I understand that you’re saying that we have to use her gifts but also your gift of teaching and preaching can be used without getting a salary as well.
Or don’t you think that each one has to maintain their household afloat?
I so understand the argument. But does it apply to everyone in the service? That includes the pastors or senior leaders?
The pay is in the after life. How could I charge money when God paid the ultimate price?
Greeting people, ushering, handing out bulletins and collecting offerings are legitimate ways to serve a congregation but none require study, practice or expertise. Such is not the case with skilled musicians.
Having said that, I don't know if churches should pay musicians or not.
Is membership an issue? Are churches country clubs, islands unto themselves? Are visiting christians unable to contribute?
All christians have something to contribute to all churches, whether they are members of that particular church or not.
God is one, as all christians should be.
To answer your question, I would suggest that you pay the professional musicians and serious music students.
For about 15 years I played in worship bands as an amateur.
I can attest that God pays his laborers well, even if it is not with money.
Now, as I begin a "twilight career" as a christian musician, a worship leader, the path I recognize that God has set before me, I am wondering how this can be a viable career.
Sacred music is a ministry and those of us who take that authority seriously know how to serve the whole church.
No. And pastors should not be paid either. It's not a career. Come on church
The Gifts of the spirit are not the same as playing and instrument, that is a talent that needs Years of investing time, money, and sacrifice. Go without a Bass player? Humm? That's the foundation so it would have to be like an acoustic set, otherwise it is not going to sound full and complete!
Good conversation. At my last church we had 3 tiers of commitment for worship musicians and it worked pretty well.
1. Those who were essentially full time staff, organized the teams, prepared the sets and arrangements, music director, ran rehearsals and communicated with the team. Also they worked in worship development teaching new players how to become a valued worship musician. These were highly skilled and paid well.
2. Regular skilled team members willing to commit to 3 weekends per month. They were typically paid for their time on a gig basis.
3. Volunteer musicians from the congregation who likely had other day jobs and preferred to give their first fruits of time and talent to serving God by serving the church. They had the least commitment requirements and filled out perhaps 50% of our musician roster which was up to 100 musicians over many different styles and venues.
We rarely had guest musicians who were not members of the church but occasionally this was great.
should you replace musician with pre recorded music?
Regarding the "I won't serve unless I'm paid" comment . . . my question to the host is this: Would you do what you are doing now and waive your current salary, and the money you are getting for this video from TH-cam? Same question for pastors. No? I guess you won't serve unless you're paid.
Thanks for the comment! To answer your question, comparing my role as director of Sovereign Grace Music to playing an instrument on a Sunday is an apples to oranges comparison for a number of reasons. First, a full time job isn’t the same as playing on Sunday once a week. Second, Scripture says that pastors/preachers specifically are to earn their living from their role when possible (1 Cor. 9:14, but also vss. 6-13). Finally, the money that Sovereign Grace Music receives from this video might be enough to buy a cup of coffee, but hardly enough to support someone! As we say in the podcast, there are certainly situations where full-time leaders and musicians should receive compensation. But we want to fight hard to cultivate an attitude in the church that counts it a joy to lay down our lives freely to serve our brothers and sisters in the church.
Wow. As one who so appreciates your music.
Even more questions arise....should we for example pay Bible study leaders who spend hours preparing? Or Sunday School teachers?
If a church expects a member to spend 40-60 hours of service in the church then maybe they need to be paid as they have no other time to earn money.
I think you are right, it depends on the church and circumstance.
I feel that music/ music teams have been elevated and foreground far above any level I see in the New Testament... that's another subject.
Christ is our focus, the Scriptures are our focus.
The elevation of music and music teams really bothers me...where I'm not sure what is a Christian concert and what is worship.
Another topic.
Thanks guys for the great discussion.
The Lord created music and instruments and choirs and so on let us constantly check our motives and focus.
I belong to a rural church of 50 people. So practically, (except for the minister) every person is a volunteer.
Let's also question our definition of standards... acapella is also beautiful.
Bless you guys.
Let's all discuss in love.
Bless you.
$100,000 on musicians 0_o that would fund our church plant in a poor area for 2 years. America is a crazy place. Imagine how that money could be used for the gospel elsewhere, and the cost? slightly less practiced music, using slightly worse musicians. nothing compared to paying pastors in poor areas. Makes my heart sad
If you don't want to apply things from the old Testament, don't preach from it. Where in the Bible does it say you have to be a member of a particular church in order to serve it? This is manipulation.
do the levites(workers of the temple) deserve to be paid?
Why not pay the nursery workers Day Care Services?
Wouldn't that be included in tithes and offering?
I am a degreed professional musician. I don't go to church I work for a church and like any other profession compensation is expected .
How sad...
Your use of 1 Peter, you might as well state that teachers (they speak), preachers (they speak) should not get paid either.
The scripture about the ox is not teaching that people should get paid. If you use that scripture, why not pay anyone that labors? The ox needs to eat.
So the passages that this statement occurs in are 1 Corinthians 9 and he also states it briefly in 1 Timothy. And in context Paul is making a point that those that spend their lives teaching and preaching the gospel (ie. Himself, the other apostles in those days, missionaries, teachers/elders/pastors in the church who are fully devoted to caring for the body) have a right to provisions from those they serve. And it is their joy to provide that. He states it pretty plainly. The point here that Bob is making is that it's hard to make an argument for paying anyone else in roles other than pastor/teacher because the bible doesn't make one. It's an argument from silence which is usually a unhelpful road to go down.
Hope you find this helpful.
Blessings
To quote a meme: "You guys get _paid?_"
After reading other comments, I will add this: most of the praise teams/bands in my area have other 'gigs' and are paid for their performance. Carnivals, fairs, youth events, conferences, private parties, etc... Some have made their own dvds. A few are in music education, so they are already very popular with young people. I think that my church in particular does pay one music director, who plans music for three services (traditional and CMC). This person also sings, plays instruments, and selects music for the 'volunteer musicians'-who are really members of his band. Everyone one of the band is also a member of the group that is paid for other events. They practice at the church for 2 hours a week. I don't mind, if we give this director some remuneration, but since the rehearsals also double as rehearsals for their paid gigs, I don't think that we should be paying them. They get a whole lot of exposure and advertising. If we start paying musicians, how about paying Sunday School teachers? Or nursery workers? I taught kids for years. I also spent at least 8 hours in preparations, and 2 hours each Sunday teaching. Teachers of adults probably spend at least that much time. Where does the paying stop?
It stops when the person not being paid says so. Otherwise, people deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labor, unless they know it’s “volunteer” going in.