I'm a church musician. I believe there is a difference between being a church musician and playing for my home church. Me personally I look at playing for my home church as using my talents for the Lord, just as I also teach Sunday School and I am the head over our medical team at church. I do this all because I am using my talents for the Lord. On the other hand if another church wanted me to come fill in on drums for a couple of weeks or something similar I would expect to get paid by that church. This is just my opinion.
So you wouldn’t be using your talents for the Lord at the other church? Why is it that you only serve the Lord at your home church? Does “The Lord” only matter when you’re at your home church? Also, Surely God wants you to get paid.
@@WH012Vids I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't have a problem with a musician getting paid at their home church. The pastors all get paid. I am just saying for myself I want to give of my talents as much as my money to my home church. I just look at it a little differently I guess. I'm not against getting paid by my local church at all. It's just something I do as an offering to the Lord.
@@Suzyrn601 But why does that change when you go to somebody else’s church? Are you not still using your talents for the lord at a different church? What I’m trying to understand is, what’s the difference between each church? Why do you expect to get paid at one and not the other?
@@WH012Vids My church is where I have put my roots down. My children grew up in the church and now are attending on their own. I feel like for me it's the same as someone working in the nursery, teaching sunday school, being a greeter, etc. I just think there are some things we need to do because we love the Lord and love our church that we use the talents the Lord has given us to proclaim his name. I teach Sunday School and I am the head over the medical team at my church also without compensation. I don't have a problem with anyone getting compensated. For me I just want to do it for my church.
@@Suzyrn601 First of all, I think it’s crazy you do all those things with no compensation. But you’re still not answering my question. My question is, why would you charge another church, but not your own? Wouldn’t you be serving God in the other church too?
When I joined the church ensemble, I brought my own gear. All of it. (I'm the guitarist). No one plugs into my amp/s. Period. The issue came up and I stood my ground on this. I am not paid. I have very good equipment that I maintain. I am playing for the Lord. There are limits and boundaries.
Comparing the role of a church musician to the role of the guy cleaning the church toilets was priceless. Playing those K-Love songs through a sound system so big it scares Baal is literally more demeaning at times than cleaning ANY toilet anywhere. 🤔 At least the janitor doesn't convince himself that he needs the absolute fanciest and most expensive cleaning supplies to do his work for the Lord. Can I get an Amen?
I feel you brother, I really do but consider this: If the whole band just quit then all those folks who only show up for basically a free concert and free child care will stay at home. Only those who are passionate about serving our Creator will show up and think about how much energy could then be directed towards actually teaching folks the Gospel so they could then teach others. I see a world of church goers who know every K-love lyric on the radio but who couldn't tell ya where Galatia is or what their Creator told Abraham His name was if their life and/or church coffee fix depended on it.🙏
I agree with your rant Terence. I was a church musician for 5 years. Playing twice a month and receiving no pay. And expected to learn the most current music, when presented by the music pastor. All while working a real job and expected to tithe as well. Although I have read other comments about donating the it time and talents. Which I agree with too. Which thoughts you decide to go with would depend on you working a regular job or not and your "convictions". But in this case, this video is about people working at the church full time. And this is a conversation that I was wondering about. And I'm glad Terence is having it. You as a person need to support yourself and family. You shouldn't be taken advantage of. It says in the Bible. A workman is worth his wages. 1 Corinthians 3:8, Luke 10:7, Deut 24:5. Don't be prideful. But have pride in yourself and your talents. You are beautifully and wonderfully made. I hope this is a good additional comment to the video.
One thing I do have to add. The "new to me" church I'm going to now actually did a positive thing. I was really set back in a positive way. They put our worship pastor on sabbatical leave for 3 months. He's been there 10 years without basically a "reconnect to God" time. Which is very important. I'm thankful for this knowledge on this Thanksgiving and for the forward steps the church is taking.
I wish I had seen this back in the late 90's. I was the musician (drummer) for a church. They offered me a salary to play for the Mass Choir. As we (the other musicians) started gelling and getting really good, more members started joining but my pay never increased to fit the growth (as mentioned in the clip). AND I (we) were asked to started playing for the Children's Choir, Men's & Women's Ensembles, Revivals that were all week, Weddings, Funerals, Special Services, Afternoon Services that was on the evening after Sunday Service, and be musical guests when the pastors visited other churches. ALL THAT MUSIC had to be learned, rehearsed (both w/ the singing members and ourselves), and ready to perform with 90% accuracy which turned into being full-time. Oh, I didn't mention that I was slated to teach African Drumming to members to anyone who wanted to participate. So now I'm coming up with parts for different them according to their experience...whether they had rhythm or not AND make up parts for the dancers for the annual African Sunday Service. We had someone come in for a workshop and she mentioned that musicians should be getting paid at least 75% of what their daily 9-5 job was paying. That never happened and one by one we started leaving. All that work that was put in and the frustration that was felt, and the lack of respect that was given were the main reasons. Even when we had meetings with the pastors, finance head, and ministry leaders, they all said the same thing...when we grow you will get the increase. We were asked if we could get a slight increase and be paid each week instead of bi-weekly like the ministers. I can say that I have a lot of patience when I'm chosen as an MD for some bands that I play for and I am able to hear everything that is played and can correct or enhance when needed.
Wow! I’m so sorry you went through that and that’s horrible but so true. Wow! This is why the Body of Christ is suffering. We cannot even treat each other right. Charity starts at home FIRST! Wooow!
Amen, great points! Musicians have chosen music as their professions and should be treated as such. No one ever questions the validity of pay to the plumber, contractor, electrician or exterminator who provides services to the church. They are trained professionals just as experienced musicians are.
Hopefully the church also has plumbers, electricians, and contractors that volunteer also. If you're in it for the money u shouldn't be on the stage at all.
@@JohnSmith-tn1te I think a lot of churches do have volunteers for odd plumbing jobs. The difference is those are things that creep up maybe once every couple years, whereas the musicians are there every single week probably putting in at least 8 hours a week. Now I'm a church musician that doesn't get paid and I've never worried about it... but the concept of paying the musicians is not a crazy thing.
As church musician I get paid when I play. I volunteered my time and my talents for several years and then eventually offered a paid position (part time). We should absolutely be paid. Let me break it down for those who want to say otherwise. 1. As a musician we pay out of our own pockets to buy and maintain equipment . Quality instruments aren’t cheap. 2. We have to spend personal time at home rehearsing new set list for Sunday and time perfecting our skills. 3. Besides Home rehearsal we have band rehearsal usually during the week before Sunday. 4. Sunday’s we are there hours before anyone else running through Sunday set and getting sound checks. 5. Most musicians are playing and at about 2-4 services on Sunday. 6. We use our personal vehicles and don’t get paid for travel time and gas. Prove me different
I like how precise you are in pointing out the information. I will say that on #6 we all do that any time we have a "job" that we do whether it's paid or not. LOL
Well presented. Even my whole family does not respect what I do as a church musician, and are taking turns insulting and questioning me for doing it, for no reason but to amuse and feel better about themselves. Thank you for defending our dignity.
I'm really sorry to hear this man! The lack of respect from the outside is horrible, but a whole lot worse when it comes from family and people you are close to! But hopefully, we will get the respect we deserve one day...
I've Been a Church Musician for Many Years and Have Never Been paid to Play, and I would not feel right in Asking for Money, I made A Vow to GOD That I would Play for Him, and I feel Honored and Blessed Every Time I get on The Stage and Play My Bass for HIM, just My Opinion😊
Thank you. I have been serving as a musician at my current church for 13 years. I don’t put praise and worship in the same category as a plumber, Gardiner, or electrician. I feel like that ministry should be a choice or should I say sacrifice. I believe that the moment we change it into a Job we have diminished that position. Now, if the musician is a full-time minister at the church, then maybe I can see things a little differently. But I feel that if we look at praise and worship this way, that we should be paid to worship or lead others to do it. then it’s better we get rid of praise and worship leaders and musicians all together, and just have Accapella for the service.
Does The Pastor Not Feel Right in Asking for Money? Did the Preacher make A Vow to GOD That he would Preach for Him, and does he feel Honored and Blessed Every Time he gets on The Stage and Preaches for HIM? Of course not, he wants money for his work, you should too.
You're being used, and I don't mean by God. Wouldn't you be doing more for God by releasing your own music to the public at large? You may convert someone, or at least hit waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more ears than your church can ever hope to equal. So why is it that you'd feel guilty accepting pay for a Sunday? Would you refuse to be paid for your own music praising God? If so, why? I'm not saying you should amass as much money as you can, I'm saying you deserve to be able to feed your family with the skills you attained with countless hours of practice and the skills God naturally gifted you with. Do you really believe God's gift is only meant to benefit him? How is that a gift then? God is bigger than that. He wants you to succeed as well. Again, I'm not saying you should prioritize your wealth, but I don't think it's asking too much to be able to provide for your family. The pastor does. In fact, most pastors are living pretty well off. I'm not asking for. Large house with four beds and 3 1/2 baths, I'm asking for food on the table. I'm asking for access to healthcare. I'm not trying to enrich myself with the church like many, many pastors do, I'm just asking for a living. Why is that wrong?
I was a musician in a church that paid the drummer $60,000 a year. They didn’t pay anybody else, just the drummer. The next church that I went to, they were paying the drummer as well, except this time he wasn’t a Christian and he came to church high, and stoned out of his mind, and sometimes showed up three minutes before service and didn’t rehearse except on Sun morning. They were paying that drummer $400 a week while everybody else played for, “The Lord” a.k.a for free. Churches should disclose who they pay and who they don’t. Because, where your treasure is, your heart will be also. The church calls it good stewardship…I call it underhanded deception
Yeah mane. I don’t get paid, but I’m a newb and I’m playing at my own church just for the experience. But I definitely understand your frustrations. Im not even sure if our drummer is Christian. He has come high before.
60k a year and 400 a week for the other guy, while no one else was getting paid??? That's insane brother!! Shame on those pastors and their board members.
I feel you man and I agree wholeheartedly too. You make some very valid points there. Nobody seems to question the maintenance staff and groundskeepers and even the pastor and assistant pastor but have the nerve to question someone in their music department who they expect to show up for morning service, afternoon and away fellowships, special events like church anniversaries, revivals, pastors anniversary and lets not forget choir anniversaries. I know what's involved with being a church support musician (I play guitar), all the hours of cramming songs from TH-cam and the time spent at rehearsals, the wear and tear on my gear and the cost of keeping it up to working order, and the time I put into learning and perfecting my craft so I figure if they ain't paying then I"m not playing. I have to look out for myself in these scenarios but the good thing is that for every church that won't there's always another one that does. Thank you for your insight and comments.
This is a great video. I've been a working church musician since I was 12 years old and received $30 per month as a salary. I've played for churches that paid musicians and I have played for those that didn't. Over 40 years I've seen this debate go back and forth and I will say this - if the musician is a blessing to the church then the church should be a blessing to the musician. In college, I worked full-time as a TSA, 20 hours in the engineering lab, and played for 3 different churches in 3 different cities to get through college (I was an electrical engineering major with a whole load of classes simultaneously). I was so exhausted that I fell asleep in the middle of the day while driving and totaled my car. I'm blessed to be alive. A friend of mine that played for the college choir told me about a church that needed a musician. I reached out to them. I was interviewed and after the interview they hired me. That church paid me $200 a week to be the church musician and to work with 5 different choirs but that was enough money for me to get another car, get married to the love of my life, and graduate with my engineering degree. When the church as a whole starts to look at the roles they have that they can compensate I think they should. You don't know what that can do for a musician and his family. Biblically, I think in Numbers 18, it talks about how all the offerings were taken to take care of the temple. That included an offering for the Levites - the musicians. I could be wrong on that but I do believe it is right to take care of your musicians financially. Thanks for this video.
Tithes were for the Levites, but it was good. But people should be paid for their time and effort. But churches love to use people, especially a church that the pastor started himself. It's actually his church.
I had a v old minister friend say to me one day “we gave build buildings and used people - we’ve had that backwards - we’re supposed to build people and use buildings!” Jus sayin …
Man this hits so hard. I've been a church musician for the last 15-20 years. I'm watching this as I re-wire my pedalboard at midnight on a friday night before sunday service. All because something wasn't working right at practice last night which ran until 11pm. I'll probably be up until about 2am running through all of the songs again, making sure that everything is good to go. They just don't know or care about what goes into making Sunday morning work. We actually had to fight to get the stage for a single weeknight practice. They legit expect us to show up 30 minutes before service just ready to go. From their perspective the whole thing is no big deal.
Wow! I am a Bible thumpin' believer. I have played a few church services to fill in for players. I hated it. The energy wasted to entertain folks absolutely robbed me of my joy. Those folks didn't need that wonderful band, that lovely sound system or that fresh brewed coffee. They needed a basic introductory lesson on the Gospel of our Lord. It was a circus! A loud obnoxious K-Love cover band joke. I avoid those " praise and worship" circus acts like the plague. If it requires that much gear, Db level and bad 4 chord K-Love songs to get folks to come to church, the problem isn't your pedal board. It is your congregation's heart and a lack of REAL passion to praise their Creator. Those who came to hear Jesus 2000 years ago didn't insist on a 20k$ light and sound package or 100%Arabica coffee in an air conditioned room. They came without even bringing lunch and sat on the ground. What good is it to fill a church with folks who simply came for bad unison singing, sing-along if they don't learn enough or know enough to spread and defend the Gospel? Please someone give me an "Amen". End of sermon I'm no fan of the Church of Christ and their anti musical instrument thang but compared to wasting money on huge P.A.s and in-ear monitors, maybe they have a good point.
@@rustyshackleford9557 Your "sermon" here diminishes what we do as church musicians! I'm sorry that the church music and musicians you have experienced were not to your particular liking. But what you are saying does not represent church musicians. And it's funny that people always bring up stuff that those who came to hear Jesus did 2000 years ago, because all they do is cherry pick the things they don't agree with while leaving other things out. You know what else wasn't the case during that time? Comfortable church seats and pews! As you said, they said on the ground...but I don't hear you complaining about churches having pews and chairs. Also, since they were outside, as you mentioned, I don't hear you complaining about churches having services inside buildings. Furthermore, you should stop being pretentious about what other people's beliefs are, especially based on whether or not they like or prefer music and "praise and worship" in church. You don't know why people come to church nor do you know their ability to represent or defend the gospel. Unless you think you know everything and you are doing things the "right" way, you probably should express a bit more compassion...you know....like Jesus would
@@TerenceFisher1 you misunderstood I am complaining about cushy church pews, air conditioning and the such. Folks ought to be happy to sit on the floor. I hope that clarified. Thank you for your reply.
For me, it comes down to the kind of availability and time commitment the church requires. If we're talking about one 2 to 3 hour rehearsal per week plus playing during the weekly worship service on a rotating roster every other week, then for me that should be seen as volunteering for ministry and should be unpaid. But if we're talking about people playing practically every week in multiple services on multiple days and special events, then to me that level of commitment should involve compensation.
@Jb3215 I think that the amount of time, effort and devotion you are willing to put into ministry comes down to what you feel towards God. But whether you are PAID for your ministry work is a separate matter. You do the ministry because it's a response to what God does for you, and in turn the church should pay according to the work you are doing for the church. 1 Timothy 5:18 lays out this principle when Paul says not to muzzle an ox when it is treating out the grain, and the labourer deserves his wages. A responsible church needs to set a line of demarcation between where volunteering ends and practically working a job begins, and pay people appropriately depending on which side of the line their efforts land on.
I have been a church organist/pianist for the last 25+ years. In the churches I have been in there is a little bit of a difference as these were small churches, typically less than 100 attendees. I have been paid at some churches and not at others. For me, I play because I love the Lord and give back to Him my time and talent which He gave me. So, when I've been paid, and usually never more than $20 a service, I sign the back of the check and put it into the offering plate. I personally don't want the money. I am giving of myself to the Lord and the church. I don't criticize or judge anyone who gets paid. It's just not who I am and how I feel personally. All I will say to others who read this is... always remember that the Lord gave you the talent and please use it wisely to honor Him and not yourself. 🙂
I played music in churches as a Profession for years, and I definitely stuck to my guns that musicians should be paid. I needed to eat, and I needed strings, and a tuner etc. I loved helping lead in worship with the band, but I needed compensation for my skills. The problem is, when you start making a fuss, alot of Bigger churches will just replace you with someone who can do half the job anyway. It's a stressful place to be for sure. Fortunately traveling worship musicianship ended up being for me more, and it took care of alot of my needs. Killer video, thanks for shouting out the truth.
What do you mean musicians who did not demand anything from the church so you’re saying that musicians should do everything for free so a police officer is a professional doctors are professional lawyers are profession working at McDonald’s is a profession being a CEO of a nightclub that’s a profession playing instrument is not a profession? Last time I checked, you go to college to become a musician. I hate it when people do that music is a profession and you wonder why people do 90% music secular when they really want to do gospel.
WORSHIP LEADERS 1. Musicians are not background instruments to vocals.... remember to allow musicians to play freely... (unless you are paying them, then I suppose they are just musicians for hire and will only do what you tell them to do) Musicians are not tools only their to support vocals.... there is such thing as praising God with instruments alone! 2. Know the correct NAME of the songs.... the HOOK or CHORUS of the song is NOT always the title of the song!!!! 3. If you send out the song to both the choir and musicians make sure everyone is learning from the same version of the song... this will ensure that the key, the arrangement, tempo, feel, intro and outtros are the same. 4. Please give the musicians enough time to learn the songs. Its easy for you to change the key of a song at the last minute but "some" musicians needs to learn the song a few days BEFORE rehersal, not the day of the rehersal. 5. Keep in mind that "choir" rehearsals are also musician rehearsals... and the musicians are NOT just there so you can get the vocals right... the musicians need time to LEARN the song as well, NOT only when your not singing.... it is my recommendations that the musicians rehearse separately (before) the choir but that would mean MORE commitment and MORE pay for the musicians.... 6. Question: why does the musicians get paid when the choir members dont? the choir and the musicians are at the same rehersals and at church on Sunday just like the musicinas..... maybe thats another discussion for another time.... 7. Why are some musicians paid to play instruments but don't show up to bible study, prayer meetings, or Sunday school? 8. What are some musicians NOT members of the church that they play for? 9. All choir leaders should have a strong understanding about music, arrangements, feel, key changes, modulation, song structure... I think that if choir leaders really understood music they would not change the keys on the fly... many annointed, talented, gifted musicians can do this... but not all. If a music ministry is supposed to be "UNITED" and supposed to be a ministry.... then you should know the limitations of your musicians and everything should not be centered on the vocals alone. It is easier for a singer to change the key of a song than it is for a musician to change the key of a song they have already rehearsed in another key.... 10. If you are going to be a musician give the music ministry your ALL..... music "ministry" is NOT a job.... it is pastor's fault for making musicians an occupation.... this is why many musicians church hop, they go where the money is at.... but musicians are not committed to one church unless they are paying well.... stop paying your musicians and see how "Committed" to God they are.... you will see how "Faithful" to ministry they are..... you will discover how "Anointed" they are... but its NOT the musicians fault.... its the church leaders fault for allowing NON-Members to sit on the alter and minister to "customers." not once in scripture will you see a blessing exchange for money... you wont see the anointing get any money for its services... in fact, it was actually considered evil to receive money for doing what you should be giving to the church.... Yes I am a musician and I have been blessed by churches but its NEVER a requirement. I play for the lord. I do not play and have a contract or hold the church hostage in the form of an agreement to play for the chuch as I have witnessed at other churches.... the music ministry and the musicians SHOULD be sactified and seperate... instead they are hirlings who get paid a wage for proviing entertainment to keep seats filled and attract people to the church.... this is NOT secret... the difference is.... is God accepting your offering? is your offering pure, is your praise for God or to pay your bills? are you playing because you are annointed or are you playing because you are receiving compensation? Yes, music can set the atmosphere.... but is it Gods atmosphere or is it your flesh being entertained via emotions? Watch the new Hillsong Documentary.... Churches use music to set the atmosphere but is it of God? Both Musicians and the Choir blesses us each Sunday through song.... keep in mind that the Musicians is not there to serve the Choir and the Choir is NOT to serve the Musicians.... those gifts should be offered equally..... but if you pay someone to play an instrument, then the musician wont play one note more than they are paid to play.... it is a blessing to have musicians and a Choir.... I pray that everyone re-evaluates their music ministry and that everyone is their to praise God through song and not just their to get paid.... all worship is not of God and all Churches are not of God, all leaders who have a title are not of God.... so all music ministers are not filled with the holy spirit.
Great posts here guys! Old musician (formerly full time in the world) lot of experience with churches their blessings and excuses. If the pastor preaches to praise Jesus and money/pay has no reflection on what he does and the time, life and efforts /sacrifices that he has made to get to this point in life / then no. Apostle Paul was a tent maker and said in one place “Acts 20:33-35 KJVS - 33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.” 9:17 It seems pastor teacher preacher apostle Paul is the New Testament example! Yes?! No?! Great guys I’m trying not to get involved with this because I have over 43 years experience in the church musician life lol I’ve been on both sides
As a part-time church musician since 1998, I FULLY endorse this video!!👏Thank you for educating the masses on what we actually do and exactly why we deserve to be compensated. Thank YOU!!
Very good video! There are also church musicians who teach Sunday School, maintain the live audio mixes, record the services, run the livestream, and update the church website. Yeah, small churches (under 100 active members) are on a different level. I don't know how I even ended up with all these responsibilities. I guess that's what I get by having multiple hobbies and interests. All of this for $150 per Sunday.
Leviticus 19:13 The New Revised Standard Version 13 You shall not defraud your neighbor; you shall not steal; and you shall not keep for yourself the wages of a laborer until morning. Unfortunately, it's not just in the music industry. It is everywhere. Everyone is always trying to get something for nothing, including churches. You make a lot of valid points that people to easily look past, and sadly, those doing the work agree to the terms. You have to value your own time and efforts before someone else will. Good video!
One reason I decided to take a turn in music and become a rebel in general in music. Music in churches is so underappreciated and people think its super easy to replace any musician on the spot. I never expected pay and rarely even gotten paid because music is my passion but there were countless hours or atitudes, groups, practice, etc that goes into it. I was expected to never miss a day regardless of also having a daytime job. So imagine mastering your craft, working for the family, and still expected to perform every time even unexpected services with little notice with little to no concern on the work that goes into it. I understand we do things for God 100%, but we also like to perform the best and not sound off, cause being off too can be off puting and embarrassing during a service. I can go on forever and Im bad at explaining it too but I agree with you 100%
Always remember! "The laborer is worthy of his wages". Know your worth. Your value. Churches are notorious for underpaying or not paying their musicians and will work them like a Mississippi slave.
I think there is a great spiritual benefit to doing something awesome as a donation. No one has to do any gig they don''t want to. When you help just to help that's pretty awesome. There is payment beyond money. I liked one of my church gigs very much to play with a great band in a beautiful spiritual environment and hang with other musicians and have that community. Don't get me wrong, I make a pretty great living playing music full time. But I do think a little spiritual service can be a spiritual benefit to the servant! : ) Just to add that perspective! : ) And I Love churches alot. And every specific situation is different! : ) I've been very thankful for every church gig I've had. And lastly, I have seen that good communication can solve all difficulties eventually.
@fultonbenjamin9022 as I look into what the Levites did, I do not see musicianship or leading praise and worship anywhere. Their duties described are more that of a priest or pastor.
@fultonbenjamin9022 (from my end it seems as if a glitch erased my last comment so I will retype it. Forgive me if they both appear.) I will say again. I am not against musicians being paid if that is what the individual sect wishes to do. Worship is not merely playing music and singing. Worship is a lifestyle. Worship involves using your gifts and talents to glorify the Lord. I consider it a pure joy and honor to play skillfully for my praise and worship team. I am skilled at playing the trumpet so I use it to glorify the Lord. We have people in our church that are skilled at working with children and they use it to glorify the Lord. Others work with teens, others usher, others do security, others clean. We built our church mainly with the skills and talents that are within our church. We poured the concrete, built the walls, drywall, hvac, electrical, plumbing etc. etc. all from the voluntary talents and skills of the people. And we are now bought a new building and are in the process of renovating it, again, mostly with the skills and talents of willing congregation members. We also have people that lead or participate in missions to other countries. These people usually gladly raise their own funds to serve on these missions. We have people who organize and lead community outreaches. All simply serving from the heart. No one is forced, no one is coerced. It is all in love and worship toward God. The only ones who get paid are the pastor and the administrative staff of the church who work there full time. I am not sure exactly how much our pastor makes but it is somewhere around $45,000 to $50,000 a year. And he refuses to take a pay raise. I am blessed, honored and joyous to be a member of such a wonderful part of the body of Christ.
@Jb3215 I do play for God. The Church is the overall body we do that in. As a worshiper, my job is to support the band, the music, follow where The Holy Spirit takes us, to minister to those who show up on Sunday. Empty vessel so God can move. If theres work on a Sunday I'm scheduled...I have to cancel on Sunday because God isn't paying my bills through Church. It's provided through the world. It is supposed to be His job to provide. That is part of us surrendering and submitting to God. We're supposed to be dependent on Him for provision and have faith He will provide. If God is not providing, who is? Me, the world, The Devil...God extracting tribute from His enemies?
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽Straight up facts!! I have been through a lot of those situations you are referring to, churches consistently have unrealistic expectations, and we as musicians, work so hard, and are constantly undervalued and disrespected, and don’t even think about taking a day off!!
I am a church musician. I would not want to be paid for a few reasons. As you said, the church might feel free to add to my responsibilities, a downside to it being a job instead of something I do to serve the Lord & my enjoyment. I don’t think a musician is “worth” a salary any more than Sunday school teachers or people who maintain the building & grounds.
I get your point. However, as a musician, we can do any of the ways to serve God. We can be deacons, pastors, and ushers. But unfortunately, the rest of the congregation can't fill the required role.... and it's the amount of time u have already put fourth to reach the level to be accepted as a musician. It's a tough subject in churches. And I've seen pastors receive more in a revival. Then, some musicians get paid for playing 52 services a year.
I agree with you. I know this might be a difference of culture, because I’m looking at the perspective of churches in Africa, where I am. But I think that churches need to build an attitude of service to the Lord, and not a paid to serve culture. It would be better in my opinion if the church just went Accapella if they cannot solve this issue. That way they hear the word from the Pastor and get ushered into worship as a community. It’s so easy to lose the reason for us all being here when we go down these roads. And I know America is a little bit different, though I was in the praise and worship musically for five years before coming to Africa as a missionary. But I feel as churches try to keep up with the Joneses. they start to lose their purpose, and I pray, for the musicians to sacrifice their time to serve, no matter if they have a talent or not. And if they’re overused, then they put boundaries and the service can go on even without them.
That was on point. So many different aspects we as musicians have to deal with. Let’s not forget when you’re asked to play for a funeral or wedding. Then you have to make sure who’s singing and key as well as rehearse.Another thing that amazes me is when some people say you sing the the same songs and no one takes time to learn new one when you give them out. I can go on and on with this topic. Great content.
music, art, etc- the vocations that are never considered "work"...have felt so many of these frustrations...the line between "serving" and "getting paid" is a fine one depending on the church...i will say that it's also a fine line between asking people to give time/effort, and just taking advantage of them because of the mentalities you've mentioned here...i still believe that, "a workman is worth his wages", and that if a church can pay musicians, they should, as many of them do this for a living...
Yes. As a former worship leader for 15 years, most of which I was paid nothing or less than $100 a week, it costs a great deal of money to purchase instruments, supplies, maintaince, lessons, not counting our valuable time that is taken from our families.
WOW...Mr. Terence Fisher....no need to apologize. This video was my third video I watched and you got my attention right from the start of the first video. Everything you've said here is on point and I must sadly agree. And I say "SANDLY" because it's so unfortunate that I've gone through this A LOT. I wholeheartedly wish the pastors and church congregations would truly understand this once and for all. I liked how you delivered your point of view. I could tell you're bothered by this situation we musicians have had to face. But in your case it not what you said but how you said it that makes a difference. God bless you bro. Much love from Canada.
You are absolutely correct in all that you said, I do agree church musicians should definitely be paid...if an electrician was called to wire a church would anyone expect him not to get paid?...Serious musicians take lessons which cost thousands of dollars over years of studying, quality instruments/equipment cost thousands of dollars and maintenance of you equipment isn't free..So yes church musicians should paid...The hours that go into preparation for a service is far more than the non-musician would ever know..
God bless you, my man! You are accurate in everything you said! Today, I'm a successful musician without having to be a church musician because a lot of churches are full of themselves!! And I'll give you a great example: This church that I was working for had a special engagement at a golf country club to where the pastor (who I despise to this day) asked me to set up my gear - my gear and equipment for the artist Ben Tankard who got paid $600 for the event, and I got paid only $100. What bull#%$@! I have never returned, nor do I have the desire to give my service for churches since! So again, thank you for telling it like it is!
One thing I bring up with people who ask/talk with me about this, is that the more I'm paid, the more time I can afford doing church/music things and NOT working for money elsewhere. At the same time, I understand not all churches have the same budget, so I try not to be too much of a stickler on the exact figure, especially since I'd like for their budget to stretch enough to get the personnel that will make my life easier, but they need to offer SOMETHING. SHOW how much you value your music ministry.
GREAT VIDEO........many in this world feel..."oh, you're just having fun OR music is just a hobby" etc........I GUESS THAT'S WHY IT'S SO HARD TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING MUSIC. When I was playing full time, pay was VERY important as I had bills to pay. ...Thanks Terence
I’ve been playing in church since around 11 years of age on and off until 19 years and haven’t stopped ever since (I’m in my 40s now). I wasn’t regularly payed at my home church, but at the end of the year the Pastors admin would give all the department a check for a few hundred bucks at the most. I always received it as a token of gratitude. I’ve always had a job and God always provided for me, maybe because I didn’t seek more. Periodically, we would also be given gift cards for gear and stuff for our instruments. God has been faithful and I’ve never desired more because I was set. Playing outside of my home church though, that’s where I saw the extra blessings on a weekly basis. And all without leaving my home church where I served. Everyone is different, but if it’s for the Lord, no matter who the Pastor is, we must have a right attitude and spirit or what we do is in vain. And our finances won’t get us as far. Good video.
I appreciate your desire to rant, and many of the things you put forth in this video. I believe it is a topic that could easily consume a whole hour of time. There are a couple of things I would ad to a longer video. Perhaps you will do a part 2 or even a part 3. 1) Personal responsibility. Your video '5 ways to break free from 100 dollar gigs' contains much that would fit with this topic. Whether we're the musician or the guy who shovels snow off of the sidewalk before church, we need to look in the mirror and take responsibility for what we have agreed to do. I need to put all my requirements on the table from the beginning, or ask myself 'who's dumber? Me or the guy who talked me into what I'm doing?'. 2) State of 'the church' today. I've recently been reading through the old testament. In 1 Chronicles there is quite a lot of detail about trained, skilled musicians...who were Levites. Literally thousands of musicians. But remember that in those days the Levites were supported through the tithes and offerings of tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people. Today's average church goer doesn't give anywhere near 10% of their income. Whether we are well paid, under paid, or volunteer musicians, we need to understand that 'this is not our home' Not until we all get to heaven will there be proper justice and equity.
I'm with you all the way brother I've been playing at my church for the last 20 years and I'm still getting the same pay people don't understand it takes work to make the music right at church
I have some wild stories I can tell with my experiences playing in the church. I'm a church musician out of Houston, TX and I really don't know where to start. It's a been a wild ride. This video was really on point especially when it was mentioned about the extra services, especially when we had to go do these afternoon services at other churches for various anniversaries and not getting one dime extra. Thank God that when covid hit, all the afternoon services were cut. But that's just the beginning. I've played at a church where I was getting paid a mere $200 a Sunday. Honestly it wasn't bad at the time considering the membership was roughly 15-20 people. But the pastor was so demanding, he claims that I wasn't brought in to just play, i was brought in to "lead". Lead meaning whenever there were other things going on, like for example, the grass needed cutting, the building needed painting, someone needing to be there early on Sundays to unlock the building and make sure the ac or heat was turned on depending on the time of year it was, all that was thrown on me. I had to make sure the bathrooms were cleaned and had to stay after church to lock up after service. Then it was thrown in my face week in and week out that I was the only one on "salary" and he wasn't getting paid, and he was the pastor. But it gets worse. I was told to not expect to get a check and just leave right after service. I had to make sure all those things were done, then I get the check, and leave after everyone else has gone. There's more... I went from getting paid every Sunday to every other Sunday which meant whenever there was a 5th Sunday, I wouldn't get paid because that was my give back to the Lord Sunday. Then I was put on a 1099 and was told I had to pay $25 a week in taxes. Since when are taxes taken out when you're on a 1099? Really??? Let's talk tithing.... are we supposed to tithe our 10%? Yes. Isn't that what's in the word? Yes. Does the church rely on members tithing to keep the doors open? Yes.... However does everyone tithe like they're supposed to? No. Unfortunately at that time, roughly 15 years ago I didn't tithe like I was supposed to. That was between me and God. I was asked to show a checkstub so he could justify what I was putting in church because according to "his calculations" I wasn't putting enough in church and was told I would be cursed. That's when I stood up to him and told him I wasn't showing a checkstub because that wasn't his business. Now let's talk about catching the Holy Spirit. I was told that when I play I don't hold my hands up and shout and dance around and supposedly be all into it like some of those "other" musicians do. No I'm not one of "them" but he called himself laying hands on me and whispering in my ear that I needed to feel the Holy Spirit, so I took that like just fake it and fall back and let the deacons catch me so I just gave him what he wanted. It's funny because I was looking out of the corner of my eyes trying to figure out when it was time to get up. Good Lord I can go on all day with this but back to the original topic, all of this gave him reasons to throw in my face the fact that I was the only one in the church getting paid and how he was the pastor and he wasn't getting paid. After 3 years of all this I wound up quitting and moving on, then I got a nasty phone call and being told that I did myself a favor by quitting because he was getting ready to fire me anyway. Yeah whatever. I'm at a much better place now and have been in this place for 10 years, which is the longest time I've been playing at a church since moving to Houston in 2004.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience at that church brother .. it’s something that needs healing in us especially since it was with the Lord’s people .. much love and blessings to you in your journey with the Lord
Thank-you Terence for voicing this issue so well. I've been 30years working as a church musician, and I only got paid once which was unexpected and out of the blue, after a retreat. I've never knew my worth as folks love what you do. As long as it's for free.? Due to circumstances now and necessity I have to look for help like a beggar. It's very embarrassing to say the least. And yes all the things folks say to excuse and silence their conscience, so they don't have to recognise your dignity. Especially when you are in a desperate housing situation. I'm currently in a hostel. I have an aptitude for music but the rest is work work work.. Which I love doing. I really enjoyed your postings on your channel, and I hope and pray, that this will break the ice, on folks viewing music ministry different. Don't get me wrong, I feel I've proved my calling for music ministry. But as soon as you ask about some financial help due to circumstances, you get folks trying to grade you and insult and question your ethics about music ministry. I'm 30years working at this? I really think their should be some governing body to help music ministers get paid work at a fair rate.? Lots of folks like myself worked for no payment for years 30 in mycase. And we end up in poverty? Also playing for no fee might seem a good thing but when you do this you encourage other church folk, not to pay other music ministers either, I like an unwitting black legger, who does the ministry for nothing, and then by doing this makes it impossible for Folks to see the issue of payment for music ministers who want a fair payment rate and who need it. Especially if it's full time. Or they are experiencing poverty and don't have a home. How much does it take for Folks to see the fair issue here. ? 💭 I will keep on ministering, but this is an issue. Ps I have liked and subscribed to your channel. Thanks again for highlighting this issue. Godbless 👍😎💭⛪🎵🎶
If a musician is an educated professional and the church has asked him/her to use their abilities within the context of music ministry then they absolutely should be paid, just as a pastor or in many cases other support staff are.
Yes, this video is on point. I work at a church and the expectations are extremely high. However, with that being said I am able to speak freely about certain things and the church leadership actually hears me out. This has been a tremendous blessing and taken away some of the stress knowing that the leadership understands where I am coming from.
Hi. Im an established artiand/musician,/producer and i was brought up in church. My mom was the choir director. Struggling to fimd my place and getting the church to at least help financially jwas my biggest hurdle. Along with the whole chirch and its hierarchy telling me i shouldn't be gigging outside the church all while refusing to support me and my family. I left the church aand kept doing shows because my obligation as a husband and father mandates me to provide for my family. God has blessed me with other opportunities to further my craft and reach beyonf the borders of my islamd church monopoly. I have come to realise that some of us musicians may be called elsewhere from the church and perhaps that isn't all bad. It just sad that my home church doesn't see the value and hard work involved with directing and training different people hoping to create a sound worship team. Im doing mentoring and traing for up and coming musician and producers and im influential in that department. Thank you for this video. I hope all Christians esp those in church leadership see this at the very least if not by personal revelation from our Lord Himself.❤
It's a rough life for a worship leader. I think that a lot of churches do their best, but sometimes become blind to what matters. I've been a worship leader for about a decade and was cut a little over a year ago since our church lost a few "big tithers". But they kept on the media team and paid them. I haven't left the church or anything and continue to work through these issues while taking a step back from leading and they want me to come back to the position without pay. I've been seeking the Lord over a year about this because I do believe that people are quick to jump ship, and we don't always get what we "deserve". Christ paid it all for me and to him I owe all. Please pray that God would speak to me. Thank you for anyone who sees this. Also, don't take this as me bashing my church, because I love everyone there and think just a few bad steps have been made, but I boast in the Lord even when I fall short. I am not above anyone there in this matter. Thank you all!
You are absolutely correct, and your are very helpful, this is a great part of your ministry. Musicians have greatly been taken advantage of over the years.
I'm a pianist and organist for our music group at church, and I really love playing, and I would never expect to be paid for it!! I just enjoy playing for everyone. Xxx🥰
Are you a member of this church? Whenever I get a chance to go to my home church, I don’t expect pay and will lot accept it. Also, if it’s not your home church,I am not mad at you or anybody else that plays free of charge. That is a choice you made. When churches recruit, they come at us with a price point. So they are willing and have no problems paying.
a musician can easily be a usher, trustee, van driver, help in the kitchen, help do things around the church, most of us are savvy on computers. but no one else with those positions can play an instrument yet along the hundreds of songs we know and learn.
Man... This is accurate and I feel where you're coming from. I'd like to say though, that it's not like this everywhere. But I think the reason that these issues are so common is because Churches aren't businesses. Many of them do not have business savy nor business practices. There are a lot of bad cultural traditions that have been passed down through "poor" Churches as well. When the history of the Church was thay they couldn't afford a musicians, they don't know how to manage their funds in a way to properly pay musicians and other people will dp it basically for free, it makes it hard to build a precedent. At the end of the day, most Churches are supported by volunteers. If you think of the early Church, they were happening in someone's house, and that house was often a part of a community where everyone was being taken care of in one form or another. Churches today (at least in America ) function like clubs or institutions. People often attend a Church that they are not even connected to outside of services or special events. Musicians may be members, or may iust be mavericks who are traveling for a gig. Sometimes they love the Lord, sometimes they don't lol Churches are unique and often so are their financial circumstances since they don't inherently generate revenue. I think the most important thing is that we as musicians are educated and are able to advocare for ourselves in these situations. I grew up directing the choir (from the age of 14), then leading the Worship team and then covering for the paid musician when he was out. All of this for free. Later, after I left that Church in college because I got a paying gig at a "white Church." I found out the people I covered for were being paid lol I never thought to ask. I grew up serving in that way and was happy to do so. The Church also struggled for money, so I understood them paying for what they had to and not paying were they could not pay. Now I'm the Worship Pastor and an elder at a Church. We can't afford to pay all of the musicians and continue to do all of the work that we do in the community. (We also do community development and a number of other structural things in our community through grants etc.) But for a time, we've had to pay contracts to a small group of musicians (including singers) to maintain the excellence of Worship since our Church is growing and I have a lot to manage. It ebs and flows, but we always try to take care of our people the best we can. It works for some people, it doesn't for others. Ir should always be a conversation, and if we feel that we're being taken advantage of, we should also present solutions. Especially if we love the Church (overall Church). One size just won't fit all in these cases. For clarity though, the situations described in this video are rough, common and wrong lol I've seen these things too.
Now let me say this. I have never been paid at any church where I attended regularly or was a member. I play sax and percussion. I would need a small box truck for my congas, bongos, timbales, roto-toms and various small percussion instruments. Forget about being paid. I have often been left alone to disassemble and reload back into my car. Once upon a time, very few knew that I played percussion as well as I do, because I did not have my own instruments. They only knew me as a saxophonist. The saxophone clashes with some styles, especially the way I play. However, I have been able to blend my percussions into every contemporary style. This has made some churches drool when I offer or ask to serve in music ministry. Mind you, I have NEVER brought my ENTIRE regalia to a gig. I usually go with my congas, bongos, their stands, maybe a cymbal or two and a bag of the small stuff. I recently added a tumba (bass) to my congas, and that LP Matador tumba is made of wood and much heavier than my Toca fiberglass quinto and conga. I have often gone as a guest minister or musician with my horns and percussion setup to participate as member of the universal Body of Christ. I think there have been three churches in which I have been involved that paid other musicians. There is a fourth that may have paid guest drummers. I am not completely sure. However, since I did not play bass, drums or keyboards I never made the cut. That was once upon a time. That ended about 15 years ago (I am 61 and been walking with Jesus Christ since 1980). I now have the policy that you pay all, you pay none or I don't play. I know the work I am putting into performing with excellence. If we are all volunteers, fine. I guess it is like the pandemic "essential" and "non-essential" nonsense. If I ain't essential, then why am I up here? My guidance for my place in music ministry comes from Ephesians 4:1-16, I Corinthians 12 and Romans 12. Overall, I am driven by Proverbs 11:24-26. Proverbs 11:26 tells me I am absolutely not to keep my artistic skills to myself, but in fact must hone them to edify my neighbors, even if I have to charge them for it to do it best.
Agreed! I play for a lot of church down here in dfw. It takes alooot of time to sit down and learn multiple sets at once. I’ve had weeks where it’s literally back to back. There are times I do give back. I’ve blessed plenty of my friends with guitar pedals/cable/I’ve taken cuts on deals where I know I should have gotten more. But I see where the lord has brought me to and know it’s only going fwd from here. I’m always willing to bless people where blessing is giving. I’m also really to volunteer my time at some church who can’t find anyone or afford me. But this is a living and life style it’s literally my part time job. People disagree with me getting paid. But at the end of the day I have to bring food on the table and support my wife and I.
I was also told this same shit of the ministry being for God hence why request for money. But I just forgot to ask him of the pastor who is being paid. 😢
@@simon_patterson right . wealth comfort and fame should not be your driving force . I've played in countless churches ... Hmmmm I want this much to priase the Lord all mighty . The ability to play music is a gift from God , not everyone can do it .
Great video and thread bro! Happy subscriber many years experience bass, guitar, read write arrange, lead bands (in my former life also) etc. you know - all we do. Seriously- best I’ve ever come across. Totally agree totally Blessings 🙏🙏🙏
Some great points in this video for the musicians and churches of a larger scale. I go to a small 130 person church and bring an acoustic guitar each week. The worship leader sends me the songs 1-2 days before and 90% of them I already know like the back of my hand. All in it’s about 1-2 hours of work per week so I’m fine with not getting paid.
I would suggest that if you, your worship leader, and your musicians/singers are repeatedly doing what you know (and in the same way you have always known), then you are NOT redeeming the time, you are NOT doing your jobs heartily as unto the Lord and not unto man, and are actually squandering God's time and talents.
Great vid!! This subject must be said. I have been paid and not paid over the last 3 decades plus and the many church ministries abuse this double standard with volunteers versus contract staff to full time workers. Why is the pastor paid and not volunteer musicians that are good? I have been active in mega churches to gain a great view of the “politics” of the church as well as working behind the scenes with well-known names. The responses I get from ministries sometimes is “Please Bless Us” (meaning volunteer for God). I have been told by non-Christian vendors that the Christian ministries are one of the most disloyal of clients and they gave key examples to me. I was told by a manufacturer’s rep that he feels that only 30% of Christians reflect their faith. We can’t change everyone but we can control what we do in the realm of Christian music and production ministry. Always walk in Christ even if it means you are alone in doing so since The Lord is always with us no matter what.
Terence I've been a professional musician for 42 years now, and I'm still dealing with this topic with my church as of this week. Since I told them I was leaving they now want to give me more money after playing on the low for nine years. Too late, I have another church that respects my commitment and abilities. I haven't told them I would accept the position yet because my days of playing for churches might be over. I'm tired brother!
I know the struggle man! I've seen this happen too many times...where they don't even think about you or value you much at all until you threaten to leave...
Very true. I’ve served and played for free and considered my time my tithe because Time IS Money and while you can always get more money, you can, in this life, never get more time. That being said, I did that for over 10 years and recently started playing at another church and after a month they started paying me which was a blessing for sure and then 2 months in, they doubled it! God is good all the time. Worship is Warfare.
No, they should not be paid. Only the Pastor or church minister is supposed to be paid. The rest, tell them to get a job or start business. They should sing and/play the instruments for the Lord, As an act of service to God.
@@billyjacc Am stating what the Holy Spirit revealed to me. What He taught me. That the gift of singing is like the gift of prophecy or speaking tongues or healing and other gifts listed in 1 Corinth 12 v 8-12, Isaiah 11 v 1-5, etc. You don't use the gift of God to earn a living. It is sin before God. Singers are to sing for the Lord. As a service to the Lord. If they need money, they should get a job or engage in business. Shepherds on the other hand are like the Priests in the old testament, and are to be paid from the tithes, offerings and donations.
@@liceafilms You are missing the point. Those who have the gifts must use them as an act of service to God. If they don't, its them who pay dearly for it in the fires of hell.
I realize this video was put out a while ago, but I have to say…listening to you describe everything you go through as a church musician gave me flashbacks! I could feel my blood pressure going up. It’s been a while since I played at church, but all those feelings and frustrations came running back when you talked about them. While I do miss playing drums at church, I don’t miss it that much. Great video, oh, and we never got paid either.
Your rant is beautiful. I'm not even a musician and I got a lot out of this. I agree with a LOT of what you said, but even the parts I didn't fancy very much, the rant WAS beautiful throughout. Thank you for sayi ng it out loud.
Quick question. I’m not a money hungry person and I kinda don’t care about the being paid part but I was told by my old organ buddy that I’m too humble. I’m a church drummer and get $40/week I’ve been playing since I was 2 and I’m pretty advanced and have had the chance to play behind some good names. I go to church to play for God and fellowship together but I start raising my eyebrow when they feel like I’m worth $40/week and the piano player can get $200-$600/week. Maybe I’m viewing it wrong but I thought that was kind of unfair
This is one of those things where it's kinda up to you man. If it's your thing to play for that amount and you are happy with it, then that's all that matters. However, there is a direct connection between what people pay you and how valuable they see you. So if it is the case where you feel you are worth more and what you bring to the table does not match your current pay, then it's ok to ask for what you feel you deserve. As far as your comment about being "too humble", stay tuned for the video that is coming this weekend about humility and arrogance. It will perhaps shed some light on this subject for you.
Terence, this is such a great video! Please forgive me if my assumption is wrong, but I am probably 18 to 20 years older than you and I want to let you know that all of the issues that you have so accurately identified was also happening back in the early 1960(s)! During my time as a church musician, there was a good pastor who paid me very well and requested that I never talk about or tell anyone about my pay. He also explained to me why paying church musicians had become such a controversial issue. To quote his words; “Why should the Church purchase a COW when there are so many people willing to donate a free Carton Of Milk !”
Terence, thank you so much for this video. You said it all. The injustice to church musician is out of this world. This is one of the reasons most church musicians live below average life. Let anyone say what they like, you have spoken the truth let them take it or leave it. Kudos
No, they should not be paid. Only the Pastor or church minister is supposed to be paid. The rest, tell them to get a job or start business. They should sing and/play the instruments for the Lord, As an act of service to God.
Me and many of my fellow musicians and leaders are well compensated by God. Personal Observation, If anyone I know including me, treats God as his/her master, the Lord Blesses us way beyond our pay grade, If we sin or make continuous mistakes, our Master does things as a master should. Just a consistent personal observation from a third world country who can barely compensate any musician in general
I went through this as a former worship leader, lol! Was expected by the pastor to put anybody on vocals AND provide 3 hours of vocal sectionals and give them their harmony parts only to have all of them forget their parts come Sunday! Keep in mind I had a full time day job doing all of this too. 🤦♀️ I had to hold band rehearsals for the musicians as well and they wouldn’t all show up for rehearsals OR the actual service. I had to call them and practically beg them to show up - it was like herding cats. And the Pastor blamed me for his church not growing- said I was “the thorn”. His exact words. I did get a love offering but had to remind them to pay me, lol. Not sure if I want to go back into the church music ministry. 😢
I was told by a pastor that people left their church because of my playing.. when I started playing for a different church, my old church tried to offer me almost double what they were paying me, and I turned them down. If people leave because of music, then they were there for the wrong reason anyway.
@@KareesBrown Hello, I was younger at the time and got excited because the pastor proposed an opportunity to me to be their worship leader in their startup church. It was my first time someone offered me a position to be a lead worship leader and I wasn’t thinking about money at that time until I realized how much work was involved. The church also had a very small budget and was too dependent on a few members within the church that made 6 figures or more to pay their tithes regularly. Oh well lesson learned. I was naive on a lot of things and the Pastor took advantage of his members. I would never do that again.
I'm acutely aware that (unlike the UK), in the USA there are many large - often huge - churches, with well-known Televangelists as Preachers/Pastors, which are run AS BUSINESSES. Where this is the case, IMO musicians should be properly paid and treated BETTER than they would be treated for the equivalent secular work.
Considered in the light of how much the guy that mows the lawn gets paid,,,,, most musicians I know never got paid. Depending on the size of the church and the ability of the musician, there maybe a time that the sacrifice given to be on a worship team might be to much. It’s an individual thing. When it becomes a job, either get paid or get out. All things covered in prayer,,, I was lead to leave the team. Zero regrets.
I play lead guitar I have 55 years experience I've into gospel about 15 years and I've experience experienced every thing you've said amen to every thing you've said 😊
Originally when I started playing for church it was for the Catholic Church, through all the yearly Worship Events and Youth Group attendances, I did not get paid. Eventually I ended up getting paid by the worship leaders because we started to play music for one of the biggest youth festivals in the south, Abbey Youth Festival. 5000+ adults and kids every year. and the $$ was fantastic. I eventually moved on from that because it wasn't consistent and the catholic churches around here refuse to evolve with the times. I eventually moved to another church under the Methodist Denomination and at my church, we get paid per service and per event. The other thing is that everyone who is involved as far as the Contemporary Worship Leader, the Traditional Worship Leader, and several other staff on the choir. So they're all trained professionals and I'm currently going into my third year of music school in Jazz Studies & Music Education. Yep double major!
This is a good and important discussion. I do not look at the musician in these situations. I look at the church and its policy. Inasmuch as this is as much ministry, albeit different from, pastor. I do not think a church should employ a musician, paid or not, that is not a believer. That is my biggest concern. The next issue is fairness. Most churches I have experienced that pay musicians do not pay all musicians. They pay drummers, bass players and primary keyboardists. Either none should be paid or all should be paid. If the musician is considered not good enough to be paid, then they should not be on the stage. Even when all musicians are believers, I wonder about using people who are not involved with the church where they are paid. Paid or not, their work should be part of their Christian walk and duty in accordance with Ephesians 4:11-16. Hirelings and mercenaries should not be employed. The church is something completely different from any other organization in that God calls it an organism. We are parts of the Body of Christ and as such function to the edification and growth not of ourselves, but the Body. I actually agree with everything you are saying. These are my concerns as it relates to the mission of the Church. There are churches that are just churches. I do not refer to them. They are not about Jesus Christ's mission. However, those churches that are of the Church, walking in Spirit and in Truth, seeking first God's agenda and character, are my concern. These are those who must be wary of expedience, because it will compromise our calling.
Absolutely said it the best 👌I played for years without ever getting paid, then another Pastor took over out church and he started paying me, and God moved on me to leave. Next church I brought my own equipment and church didn't pay me but I love God so I gave my talent and my time! God has the pay check ✔️
I 100% agree to all of this! I felt those words because I lived them myself as a church musician. I also have some biblical evidence as to why church musicians should be paid.
I have never known a church musician to be paid here in the UK - a music leader may be employed but everyone else is a volunteer. It’s a “ministry“. In fact, EVERYONE, apart from the Minister, is a volunteer.
It may be different in the UK, but here in the US churches aren't taxed. They all operate like businesses, so they should pay the "employees" accordingly. I use to be a church musician, but after I found this out I stopped playing. I wouldn't recommend any musician play in a church if they aren't being paid but the church has an annual salary.
I have been a church musician for years. Everything on this video is 100% correct. Fortunately I was paid well (I was Minister of Music) and I had a budget, but I was victim to talk from members, many of whom felt I shouldn’t get paid. Eventually I resigned and since then I haven’t played for another church. There is a concept that we musicians get paid for only 2 hours of work. No one seems to know all the preparation involved before Sunday. SAD.
I agree 100%. Played for free for years. I didn’t feel this way at first. But after years of doing this. I believe with all the preparation it takes. Musicians should be paid SOMETHING. I’m not saying go crazy. But at least show your trying. Musicians are usually the first to get Burnt out. I love God and playing music for him. But it would just be nice to get something. This video is 100% in line. If you can’t pay your team get something in place. For a future sit them down and get something in place. So they see your trying.
I interviewed for a worship leader job. They said ten hours a week expected, and the pay was $150 per week. I made one comment: "That's a little light", about the pay because I knew how much time I spend during the week finding songs, learning them, teaching the band, rehearsing (3 hours mid week) and prep rehearsal for Sat. eve and Sun. morning services. That alone is over twenty hours! Needless to say, they did not call me for a second interview.
No, they should not be paid. Only the Pastor or church minister is supposed to be paid. The rest, tell them to get a job or start business. They should sing and/play the instruments for the Lord, As an act of service to God.
@@pililani_blessingsthere's different ways to look at this though,in my case I get paid $125 week to play each Sunday, all though I've never asked for a salary, there is a lot that goes into being a musician/music director. buying your own equipment, sacrificing your own rehearsal time, getting songs just a day before service.which is a lot of work and I feel of the church can afford to honor you or compensate you in some way ,then they should.
I remember playing at a church one time and one day the guys in my band were like hey leon we got a raise did you get yours I was like no so I went to speak to the pastor about it now at the time I was making 125 for a sunday...and I asked him hey can I get a raise of 250 and I am good with that ...he said look ..the reason you won't get a raise is because you just started plus you play the Saxaphone which is an extra not nessisarily needed but it's nice to add to the sound..I said right exactly which is why you should pay me more . He said look if you don't like what I am paying you now you can leave...so I got up and said yea ok bro I see how you are and I left ...I told the band what happened. And those guys loved me because not only I could really really play well but I was very humble about my skill level I was never bragadousious or cocky I just wanted what I deserved..so I later found out after I left one by one each band member left the church because of me I was so humbled by the love that band showed me...
Churches would not be successful without music. The musicians should definitely be paid.
I'm a church musician. I believe there is a difference between being a church musician and playing for my home church. Me personally I look at playing for my home church as using my talents for the Lord, just as I also teach Sunday School and I am the head over our medical team at church. I do this all because I am using my talents for the Lord. On the other hand if another church wanted me to come fill in on drums for a couple of weeks or something similar I would expect to get paid by that church. This is just my opinion.
So you wouldn’t be using your talents for the Lord at the other church? Why is it that you only serve the Lord at your home church? Does “The Lord” only matter when you’re at your home church?
Also, Surely God wants you to get paid.
@@WH012Vids I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't have a problem with a musician getting paid at their home church. The pastors all get paid. I am just saying for myself I want to give of my talents as much as my money to my home church. I just look at it a little differently I guess. I'm not against getting paid by my local church at all. It's just something I do as an offering to the Lord.
@@Suzyrn601 But why does that change when you go to somebody else’s church? Are you not still using your talents for the lord at a different church? What I’m trying to understand is, what’s the difference between each church? Why do you expect to get paid at one and not the other?
@@WH012Vids My church is where I have put my roots down. My children grew up in the church and now are attending on their own. I feel like for me it's the same as someone working in the nursery, teaching sunday school, being a greeter, etc. I just think there are some things we need to do because we love the Lord and love our church that we use the talents the Lord has given us to proclaim his name. I teach Sunday School and I am the head over the medical team at my church also without compensation. I don't have a problem with anyone getting compensated. For me I just want to do it for my church.
@@Suzyrn601 First of all, I think it’s crazy you do all those things with no compensation. But you’re still not answering my question. My question is, why would you charge another church, but not your own? Wouldn’t you be serving God in the other church too?
When I joined the church ensemble, I brought my own gear. All of it. (I'm the guitarist). No one plugs into my amp/s. Period. The issue came up and I stood my ground on this. I am not paid. I have very good equipment that I maintain. I am playing for the Lord. There are limits and boundaries.
Amen
Amen brother
*"ABOVE ALL ASK for Wisdom, in Everything!♡¡"*
Comparing the role of a church musician to the role of the guy cleaning the church toilets was priceless.
Playing those K-Love songs through a sound system so big it scares Baal is literally more demeaning at times than cleaning ANY toilet anywhere. 🤔
At least the janitor doesn't convince himself that he needs the absolute fanciest and most expensive cleaning supplies to do his work for the Lord. Can I get an Amen?
I feel you brother, I really do but consider this: If the whole band just quit then all those folks who only show up for basically a free concert and free child care will stay at home.
Only those who are passionate about serving our Creator will show up and think about how much energy could then be directed towards actually teaching folks the Gospel so they could then teach others.
I see a world of church goers who know every K-love lyric on the radio but who couldn't tell ya where Galatia is or what their Creator told Abraham His name was if their life and/or church coffee fix depended on it.🙏
The word of God says a craftsman is worthy of his hire!!!
I agree with your rant Terence. I was a church musician for 5 years. Playing twice a month and receiving no pay. And expected to learn the most current music, when presented by the music pastor. All while working a real job and expected to tithe as well. Although I have read other comments about donating the it time and talents. Which I agree with too. Which thoughts you decide to go with would depend on you working a regular job or not and your "convictions".
But in this case, this video is about people working at the church full time. And this is a conversation that I was wondering about. And I'm glad Terence is having it. You as a person need to support yourself and family. You shouldn't be taken advantage of. It says in the Bible. A workman is worth his wages. 1 Corinthians 3:8, Luke 10:7, Deut 24:5. Don't be prideful. But have pride in yourself and your talents.
You are beautifully and wonderfully made. I hope this is a good additional comment to the video.
One thing I do have to add. The "new to me" church I'm going to now actually did a positive thing. I was really set back in a positive way. They put our worship pastor on sabbatical leave for 3 months. He's been there 10 years without basically a "reconnect to God" time. Which is very important. I'm thankful for this knowledge on this Thanksgiving and for the forward steps the church is taking.
I wish I had seen this back in the late 90's. I was the musician (drummer) for a church. They offered me a salary to play for the Mass Choir. As we (the other musicians) started gelling and getting really good, more members started joining but my pay never increased to fit the growth (as mentioned in the clip). AND I (we) were asked to started playing for the Children's Choir, Men's & Women's Ensembles, Revivals that were all week, Weddings, Funerals, Special Services, Afternoon Services that was on the evening after Sunday Service, and be musical guests when the pastors visited other churches. ALL THAT MUSIC had to be learned, rehearsed (both w/ the singing members and ourselves), and ready to perform with 90% accuracy which turned into being full-time. Oh, I didn't mention that I was slated to teach African Drumming to members to anyone who wanted to participate. So now I'm coming up with parts for different them according to their experience...whether they had rhythm or not AND make up parts for the dancers for the annual African Sunday Service.
We had someone come in for a workshop and she mentioned that musicians should be getting paid at least 75% of what their daily 9-5 job was paying. That never happened and one by one we started leaving. All that work that was put in and the frustration that was felt, and the lack of respect that was given were the main reasons. Even when we had meetings with the pastors, finance head, and ministry leaders, they all said the same thing...when we grow you will get the increase. We were asked if we could get a slight increase and be paid each week instead of bi-weekly like the ministers.
I can say that I have a lot of patience when I'm chosen as an MD for some bands that I play for and I am able to hear everything that is played and can correct or enhance when needed.
Wow! I’m so sorry you went through that and that’s horrible but so true. Wow! This is why the Body of Christ is suffering. We cannot even treat each other right. Charity starts at home FIRST! Wooow!
Amen, great points! Musicians have chosen music as their professions and should be treated as such. No one ever questions the validity of pay to the plumber, contractor, electrician or exterminator who provides services to the church. They are trained professionals just as experienced musicians are.
Hopefully the church also has plumbers, electricians, and contractors that volunteer also. If you're in it for the money u shouldn't be on the stage at all.
@@JohnSmith-tn1te So - your local pastor isn't getting paid? Is he 'on the stage'? How do differentiate?
@@JohnSmith-tn1te I think a lot of churches do have volunteers for odd plumbing jobs. The difference is those are things that creep up maybe once every couple years, whereas the musicians are there every single week probably putting in at least 8 hours a week.
Now I'm a church musician that doesn't get paid and I've never worried about it... but the concept of paying the musicians is not a crazy thing.
As church musician I get paid when I play. I volunteered my time and my talents for several years and then eventually offered a paid position (part time). We should absolutely be paid. Let me break it down for those who want to say otherwise.
1. As a musician we pay out of our own pockets to buy and maintain equipment . Quality instruments aren’t cheap.
2. We have to spend personal time at home rehearsing new set list for Sunday and time perfecting our skills.
3. Besides Home rehearsal we have band rehearsal usually during the week before Sunday.
4. Sunday’s we are there hours before anyone else running through Sunday set and getting sound checks.
5. Most musicians are playing and at about 2-4 services on Sunday.
6. We use our personal vehicles and don’t get paid for travel time and gas.
Prove me different
I like how precise you are in pointing out the information. I will say that on #6 we all do that any time we have a "job" that we do whether it's paid or not. LOL
If the musician is in charge weekly of a lot of the work in music, there must be still an allowance for them
Well presented. Even my whole family does not respect what I do as a church musician, and are taking turns insulting and questioning me for doing it, for no reason but to amuse and feel better about themselves. Thank you for defending our dignity.
I'm really sorry to hear this man! The lack of respect from the outside is horrible, but a whole lot worse when it comes from family and people you are close to! But hopefully, we will get the respect we deserve one day...
I've Been a Church Musician for Many Years and Have Never Been paid to Play, and I would not feel right in Asking for Money, I made A Vow to GOD That I would Play for Him, and I feel Honored and Blessed Every Time I get on The Stage and Play My Bass for HIM, just My Opinion😊
Thank you. I have been serving as a musician at my current church for 13 years. I don’t put praise and worship in the same category as a plumber, Gardiner, or electrician. I feel like that ministry should be a choice or should I say sacrifice. I believe that the moment we change it into a Job we have diminished that position. Now, if the musician is a full-time minister at the church, then maybe I can see things a little differently. But I feel that if we look at praise and worship this way, that we should be paid to worship or lead others to do it. then it’s better we get rid of praise and worship leaders and musicians all together, and just have Accapella for the service.
Does The Pastor Not Feel Right in Asking for Money? Did the Preacher make A Vow to GOD That he would Preach for Him, and does he feel Honored and Blessed Every Time he gets on The Stage and Preaches for HIM? Of course not, he wants money for his work, you should too.
You're being used, and I don't mean by God. Wouldn't you be doing more for God by releasing your own music to the public at large? You may convert someone, or at least hit waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more ears than your church can ever hope to equal. So why is it that you'd feel guilty accepting pay for a Sunday? Would you refuse to be paid for your own music praising God? If so, why? I'm not saying you should amass as much money as you can, I'm saying you deserve to be able to feed your family with the skills you attained with countless hours of practice and the skills God naturally gifted you with. Do you really believe God's gift is only meant to benefit him? How is that a gift then? God is bigger than that. He wants you to succeed as well. Again, I'm not saying you should prioritize your wealth, but I don't think it's asking too much to be able to provide for your family. The pastor does. In fact, most pastors are living pretty well off. I'm not asking for. Large house with four beds and 3 1/2 baths, I'm asking for food on the table. I'm asking for access to healthcare. I'm not trying to enrich myself with the church like many, many pastors do, I'm just asking for a living. Why is that wrong?
@@albertnortononymous9020I have more respect for a pastor that does not take pay from a church.
We shouldn't have to ask , really a good subject.
I was a musician in a church that paid the drummer $60,000 a year. They didn’t pay anybody else, just the drummer. The next church that I went to, they were paying the drummer as well, except this time he wasn’t a Christian and he came to church high, and stoned out of his mind, and sometimes showed up three minutes before service and didn’t rehearse except on Sun morning. They were paying that drummer $400 a week while everybody else played for, “The Lord” a.k.a for free. Churches should disclose who they pay and who they don’t. Because, where your treasure is, your heart will be also. The church calls it good stewardship…I call it underhanded deception
Well said!
Yeah mane. I don’t get paid, but I’m a newb and I’m playing at my own church just for the experience. But I definitely understand your frustrations. Im not even sure if our drummer is Christian. He has come high before.
The Church shouldnt pay anyone except the Pastor.
@Fulton Benjamin Definitely!!!
60k a year and 400 a week for the other guy, while no one else was getting paid??? That's insane brother!! Shame on those pastors and their board members.
I feel you man and I agree wholeheartedly too. You make some very valid points there. Nobody seems to question the maintenance staff and groundskeepers and even the pastor and assistant pastor but have the nerve to question someone in their music department who they expect to show up for morning service, afternoon and away fellowships, special events like church anniversaries, revivals, pastors anniversary and lets not forget choir anniversaries. I know what's involved with being a church support musician (I play guitar), all the hours of cramming songs from TH-cam and the time spent at rehearsals, the wear and tear on my gear and the cost of keeping it up to working order, and the time I put into learning and perfecting my craft so I figure if they ain't paying then I"m not playing. I have to look out for myself in these scenarios but the good thing is that for every church that won't there's always another one that does. Thank you for your insight and comments.
This is a great video. I've been a working church musician since I was 12 years old and received $30 per month as a salary. I've played for churches that paid musicians and I have played for those that didn't. Over 40 years I've seen this debate go back and forth and I will say this - if the musician is a blessing to the church then the church should be a blessing to the musician.
In college, I worked full-time as a TSA, 20 hours in the engineering lab, and played for 3 different churches in 3 different cities to get through college (I was an electrical engineering major with a whole load of classes simultaneously). I was so exhausted that I fell asleep in the middle of the day while driving and totaled my car. I'm blessed to be alive.
A friend of mine that played for the college choir told me about a church that needed a musician. I reached out to them. I was interviewed and after the interview they hired me. That church paid me $200 a week to be the church musician and to work with 5 different choirs but that was enough money for me to get another car, get married to the love of my life, and graduate with my engineering degree.
When the church as a whole starts to look at the roles they have that they can compensate I think they should. You don't know what that can do for a musician and his family.
Biblically, I think in Numbers 18, it talks about how all the offerings were taken to take care of the temple. That included an offering for the Levites - the musicians. I could be wrong on that but I do believe it is right to take care of your musicians financially. Thanks for this video.
Thank you for your humble and blessed comment.
Tithes were for the Levites, but it was good. But people should be paid for their time and effort. But churches love to use people, especially a church that the pastor started himself. It's actually his church.
I had a v old minister friend say to me one day “we gave build buildings and used people - we’ve had that backwards - we’re supposed to build people and use buildings!”
Jus sayin …
Man this hits so hard. I've been a church musician for the last 15-20 years. I'm watching this as I re-wire my pedalboard at midnight on a friday night before sunday service. All because something wasn't working right at practice last night which ran until 11pm. I'll probably be up until about 2am running through all of the songs again, making sure that everything is good to go. They just don't know or care about what goes into making Sunday morning work. We actually had to fight to get the stage for a single weeknight practice. They legit expect us to show up 30 minutes before service just ready to go. From their perspective the whole thing is no big deal.
Yeah, this is very well-said man! They think we just show up and play a few notes and go home, and that's all we have to do.
Thanks for saying the truth
Wow! I am a Bible thumpin' believer. I have played a few church services to fill in for players. I hated it. The energy wasted to entertain folks absolutely robbed me of my joy.
Those folks didn't need that wonderful band, that lovely sound system or that fresh brewed coffee.
They needed a basic introductory lesson on the Gospel of our Lord.
It was a circus! A loud obnoxious K-Love cover band joke.
I avoid those " praise and worship" circus acts like the plague.
If it requires that much gear, Db level and bad 4 chord K-Love songs to get folks to come to church, the problem isn't your pedal board. It is your congregation's heart and a lack of REAL passion to praise their Creator.
Those who came to hear Jesus 2000 years ago didn't insist on a 20k$ light and sound package or 100%Arabica coffee in an air conditioned room. They came without even bringing lunch and sat on the ground.
What good is it to fill a church with folks who simply came for bad unison singing, sing-along if they don't learn enough or know enough to spread and defend the Gospel? Please someone give me an "Amen". End of sermon
I'm no fan of the Church of Christ and their anti musical instrument thang but compared to wasting money on huge P.A.s and in-ear monitors, maybe they have a good point.
@@rustyshackleford9557 Your "sermon" here diminishes what we do as church musicians! I'm sorry that the church music and musicians you have experienced were not to your particular liking. But what you are saying does not represent church musicians.
And it's funny that people always bring up stuff that those who came to hear Jesus did 2000 years ago, because all they do is cherry pick the things they don't agree with while leaving other things out.
You know what else wasn't the case during that time? Comfortable church seats and pews! As you said, they said on the ground...but I don't hear you complaining about churches having pews and chairs.
Also, since they were outside, as you mentioned, I don't hear you complaining about churches having services inside buildings.
Furthermore, you should stop being pretentious about what other people's beliefs are, especially based on whether or not they like or prefer music and "praise and worship" in church.
You don't know why people come to church nor do you know their ability to represent or defend the gospel. Unless you think you know everything and you are doing things the "right" way, you probably should express a bit more compassion...you know....like Jesus would
@@TerenceFisher1 you misunderstood I am complaining about cushy church pews, air conditioning and the such. Folks ought to be happy to sit on the floor. I hope that clarified. Thank you for your reply.
For me, it comes down to the kind of availability and time commitment the church requires. If we're talking about one 2 to 3 hour rehearsal per week plus playing during the weekly worship service on a rotating roster every other week, then for me that should be seen as volunteering for ministry and should be unpaid. But if we're talking about people playing practically every week in multiple services on multiple days and special events, then to me that level of commitment should involve compensation.
@Jb3215 I think that the amount of time, effort and devotion you are willing to put into ministry comes down to what you feel towards God. But whether you are PAID for your ministry work is a separate matter. You do the ministry because it's a response to what God does for you, and in turn the church should pay according to the work you are doing for the church. 1 Timothy 5:18 lays out this principle when Paul says not to muzzle an ox when it is treating out the grain, and the labourer deserves his wages.
A responsible church needs to set a line of demarcation between where volunteering ends and practically working a job begins, and pay people appropriately depending on which side of the line their efforts land on.
I have been a church organist/pianist for the last 25+ years. In the churches I have been in there is a little bit of a difference as these were small churches, typically less than 100 attendees. I have been paid at some churches and not at others. For me, I play because I love the Lord and give back to Him my time and talent which He gave me. So, when I've been paid, and usually never more than $20 a service, I sign the back of the check and put it into the offering plate. I personally don't want the money. I am giving of myself to the Lord and the church. I don't criticize or judge anyone who gets paid. It's just not who I am and how I feel personally. All I will say to others who read this is... always remember that the Lord gave you the talent and please use it wisely to honor Him and not yourself. 🙂
I played music in churches as a Profession for years, and I definitely stuck to my guns that musicians should be paid. I needed to eat, and I needed strings, and a tuner etc. I loved helping lead in worship with the band, but I needed compensation for my skills. The problem is, when you start making a fuss, alot of Bigger churches will just replace you with someone who can do half the job anyway. It's a stressful place to be for sure. Fortunately traveling worship musicianship ended up being for me more, and it took care of alot of my needs. Killer video, thanks for shouting out the truth.
All of those musicians who didnt demand anything from the church, God will reward them in heaven playing alongside with David.😊
And George and John.
Half of them won’t be there because many of them are whores
What about the doctors lawyers police officers that asked for a paycheck?????? that’s a job same thing as a musician
What do you mean musicians who did not demand anything from the church so you’re saying that musicians should do everything for free so a police officer is a professional doctors are professional lawyers are profession working at McDonald’s is a profession being a CEO of a nightclub that’s a profession playing instrument is not a profession? Last time I checked, you go to college to become a musician. I hate it when people do that music is a profession and you wonder why people do 90% music secular when they really want to do gospel.
WORSHIP LEADERS
1. Musicians are not background instruments to vocals.... remember to allow musicians to play freely... (unless you are paying them, then I suppose they are just musicians for hire and will only do what you tell them to do) Musicians are not tools only their to support vocals.... there is such thing as praising God with instruments alone!
2. Know the correct NAME of the songs.... the HOOK or CHORUS of the song is NOT always the title of the song!!!!
3. If you send out the song to both the choir and musicians make sure everyone is learning from the same version of the song... this will ensure that the key, the arrangement, tempo, feel, intro and outtros are the same.
4. Please give the musicians enough time to learn the songs. Its easy for you to change the key of a song at the last minute but "some" musicians needs to learn the song a few days BEFORE rehersal, not the day of the rehersal.
5. Keep in mind that "choir" rehearsals are also musician rehearsals... and the musicians are NOT just there so you can get the vocals right... the musicians need time to LEARN the song as well, NOT only when your not singing.... it is my recommendations that the musicians rehearse separately (before) the choir but that would mean MORE commitment and MORE pay for the musicians....
6. Question: why does the musicians get paid when the choir members dont? the choir and the musicians are at the same rehersals and at church on Sunday just like the musicinas..... maybe thats another discussion for another time....
7. Why are some musicians paid to play instruments but don't show up to bible study, prayer meetings, or Sunday school?
8. What are some musicians NOT members of the church that they play for?
9. All choir leaders should have a strong understanding about music, arrangements, feel, key changes, modulation, song structure... I think that if choir leaders really understood music they would not change the keys on the fly... many annointed, talented, gifted musicians can do this... but not all. If a music ministry is supposed to be "UNITED" and supposed to be a ministry.... then you should know the limitations of your musicians and everything should not be centered on the vocals alone. It is easier for a singer to change the key of a song than it is for a musician to change the key of a song they have already rehearsed in another key....
10. If you are going to be a musician give the music ministry your ALL..... music "ministry" is NOT a job.... it is pastor's fault for making musicians an occupation.... this is why many musicians church hop, they go where the money is at.... but musicians are not committed to one church unless they are paying well.... stop paying your musicians and see how "Committed" to God they are.... you will see how "Faithful" to ministry they are..... you will discover how "Anointed" they are... but its NOT the musicians fault.... its the church leaders fault for allowing NON-Members to sit on the alter and minister to "customers." not once in scripture will you see a blessing exchange for money... you wont see the anointing get any money for its services... in fact, it was actually considered evil to receive money for doing what you should be giving to the church....
Yes I am a musician and I have been blessed by churches but its NEVER a requirement. I play for the lord. I do not play and have a contract or hold the church hostage in the form of an agreement to play for the chuch as I have witnessed at other churches.... the music ministry and the musicians SHOULD be sactified and seperate... instead they are hirlings who get paid a wage for proviing entertainment to keep seats filled and attract people to the church.... this is NOT secret... the difference is.... is God accepting your offering? is your offering pure, is your praise for God or to pay your bills? are you playing because you are annointed or are you playing because you are receiving compensation? Yes, music can set the atmosphere.... but is it Gods atmosphere or is it your flesh being entertained via emotions? Watch the new Hillsong Documentary.... Churches use music to set the atmosphere but is it of God?
Both Musicians and the Choir blesses us each Sunday through song.... keep in mind that the Musicians is not there to serve the Choir and the Choir is NOT to serve the Musicians.... those gifts should be offered equally..... but if you pay someone to play an instrument, then the musician wont play one note more than they are paid to play.... it is a blessing to have musicians and a Choir.... I pray that everyone re-evaluates their music ministry and that everyone is their to praise God through song and not just their to get paid.... all worship is not of God and all Churches are not of God, all leaders who have a title are not of God.... so all music ministers are not filled with the holy spirit.
Great posts here guys!
Old musician (formerly full time in the world) lot of experience with churches their blessings and excuses.
If the pastor preaches to praise Jesus and money/pay has no reflection on what he does and the time, life and efforts /sacrifices that he has made to get to this point in life / then no. Apostle Paul was a tent maker and said in one place
“Acts 20:33-35 KJVS - 33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.” 9:17
It seems pastor teacher preacher apostle Paul is the New Testament example! Yes?! No?!
Great guys I’m trying not to get involved with this because I have over 43 years experience in the church musician life lol
I’ve been on both sides
As a part-time church musician since 1998, I FULLY endorse this video!!👏Thank you for educating the masses on what we actually do and exactly why we deserve to be compensated. Thank YOU!!
Very good video! There are also church musicians who teach Sunday School, maintain the live audio mixes, record the services, run the livestream, and update the church website. Yeah, small churches (under 100 active members) are on a different level. I don't know how I even ended up with all these responsibilities. I guess that's what I get by having multiple hobbies and interests. All of this for $150 per Sunday.
Leviticus 19:13
The New Revised Standard Version
13 You shall not defraud your neighbor; you shall not steal; and you shall not keep for yourself the wages of a laborer until morning.
Unfortunately, it's not just in the music industry. It is everywhere. Everyone is always trying to get something for nothing, including churches. You make a lot of valid points that people to easily look past, and sadly, those doing the work agree to the terms. You have to value your own time and efforts before someone else will. Good video!
One reason I decided to take a turn in music and become a rebel in general in music. Music in churches is so underappreciated and people think its super easy to replace any musician on the spot. I never expected pay and rarely even gotten paid because music is my passion but there were countless hours or atitudes, groups, practice, etc that goes into it. I was expected to never miss a day regardless of also having a daytime job. So imagine mastering your craft, working for the family, and still expected to perform every time even unexpected services with little notice with little to no concern on the work that goes into it. I understand we do things for God 100%, but we also like to perform the best and not sound off, cause being off too can be off puting and embarrassing during a service. I can go on forever and Im bad at explaining it too but I agree with you 100%
Always remember! "The laborer is worthy of his wages". Know your worth. Your value. Churches are notorious for underpaying or not paying their musicians and will work them like a Mississippi slave.
You don't work to get applauded by men if you are truly playing to God and people to get bless..
@@GloryEtim-pm2eimusicians are human. I suggest you watch the video
you don't play do ya? @@GloryEtim-pm2ei
@@ricktribble3475 I do dear. I don't expect to be on salary in God's house. Except you just want to honour me
👍🏽 alright now....tell it!!!!
I think there is a great spiritual benefit to doing something awesome as a donation. No one has to do any gig they don''t want to. When you help just to help that's pretty awesome. There is payment beyond money. I liked one of my church gigs very much to play with a great band in a beautiful spiritual environment and hang with other musicians and have that community. Don't get me wrong, I make a pretty great living playing music full time. But I do think a little spiritual service can be a spiritual benefit to the servant! : ) Just to add that perspective! : ) And I Love churches alot. And every specific situation is different! : ) I've been very thankful for every church gig I've had. And lastly, I have seen that good communication can solve all difficulties eventually.
@fultonbenjamin9022 as I look into what the Levites did, I do not see musicianship or leading praise and worship anywhere. Their duties described are more that of a priest or pastor.
@fultonbenjamin9022 (from my end it seems as if a glitch erased my last comment so I will retype it. Forgive me if they both appear.)
I will say again. I am not against musicians being paid if that is what the individual sect wishes to do. Worship is not merely playing music and singing. Worship is a lifestyle. Worship involves using your gifts and talents to glorify the Lord. I consider it a pure joy and honor to play skillfully for my praise and worship team. I am skilled at playing the trumpet so I use it to glorify the Lord. We have people in our church that are skilled at working with children and they use it to glorify the Lord. Others work with teens, others usher, others do security, others clean. We built our church mainly with the skills and talents that are within our church. We poured the concrete, built the walls, drywall, hvac, electrical, plumbing etc. etc. all from the voluntary talents and skills of the people. And we are now bought a new building and are in the process of renovating it, again, mostly with the skills and talents of willing congregation members. We also have people that lead or participate in missions to other countries. These people usually gladly raise their own funds to serve on these missions. We have people who organize and lead community outreaches. All simply serving from the heart. No one is forced, no one is coerced. It is all in love and worship toward God. The only ones who get paid are the pastor and the administrative staff of the church who work there full time. I am not sure exactly how much our pastor makes but it is somewhere around $45,000 to $50,000 a year. And he refuses to take a pay raise. I am blessed, honored and joyous to be a member of such a wonderful part of the body of Christ.
Never thought about getting paid, ild be happy with say reimbursement for equipment etc. Good video, food for thought.
Professionals deserve compensation
real talk@Jb3215
Write a check out for the total of "Jesus paid it all" on all your bills and expenses. Tell me how well that goes.
@Jb3215 I do play for God. The Church is the overall body we do that in. As a worshiper, my job is to support the band, the music, follow where The Holy Spirit takes us, to minister to those who show up on Sunday. Empty vessel so God can move. If theres work on a Sunday I'm scheduled...I have to cancel on Sunday because God isn't paying my bills through Church. It's provided through the world. It is supposed to be His job to provide. That is part of us surrendering and submitting to God. We're supposed to be dependent on Him for provision and have faith He will provide. If God is not providing, who is? Me, the world, The Devil...God extracting tribute from His enemies?
Ministry SHOULD NEVER BECOME a "Profession" Therin lies the problem.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽Straight up facts!! I have been through a lot of those situations you are referring to, churches consistently have unrealistic expectations, and we as musicians, work so hard, and are constantly undervalued and disrespected, and don’t even think about taking a day off!!
I am a church musician. I would not want to be paid for a few reasons. As you said, the church might feel free to add to my responsibilities, a downside to it being a job instead of something I do to serve the Lord & my enjoyment. I don’t think a musician is “worth” a salary any more than Sunday school teachers or people who maintain the building & grounds.
I get your point. However, as a musician, we can do any of the ways to serve God. We can be deacons, pastors, and ushers. But unfortunately, the rest of the congregation can't fill the required role.... and it's the amount of time u have already put fourth to reach the level to be accepted as a musician. It's a tough subject in churches. And I've seen pastors receive more in a revival. Then, some musicians get paid for playing 52 services a year.
I agree with you. I know this might be a difference of culture, because I’m looking at the perspective of churches in Africa, where I am. But I think that churches need to build an attitude of service to the Lord, and not a paid to serve culture. It would be better in my opinion if the church just went Accapella if they cannot solve this issue. That way they hear the word from the Pastor and get ushered into worship as a community. It’s so easy to lose the reason for us all being here when we go down these roads. And I know America is a little bit different, though I was in the praise and worship musically for five years before coming to Africa as a missionary. But I feel as churches try to keep up with the Joneses. they start to lose their purpose, and I pray, for the musicians to sacrifice their time to serve, no matter if they have a talent or not. And if they’re overused, then they put boundaries and the service can go on even without them.
That was on point. So many different aspects we as musicians have to deal with. Let’s not forget when you’re asked to play for a funeral or wedding. Then you have to make sure who’s singing and key as well as rehearse.Another thing that amazes me is when some people say you sing the the same songs and no one takes time to learn new one when you give them out. I can go on and on with this topic. Great content.
music, art, etc- the vocations that are never considered "work"...have felt so many of these frustrations...the line between "serving" and "getting paid" is a fine one depending on the church...i will say that it's also a fine line between asking people to give time/effort, and just taking advantage of them because of the mentalities you've mentioned here...i still believe that, "a workman is worth his wages", and that if a church can pay musicians, they should, as many of them do this for a living...
Woah brother! Good stuff! You got me really rethinking my church involvement. I’ve been playing for free for decades!
Yes. As a former worship leader for 15 years, most of which I was paid nothing or less than $100 a week, it costs a great deal of money to purchase instruments, supplies, maintaince, lessons, not counting our valuable time that is taken from our families.
WOW...Mr. Terence Fisher....no need to apologize. This video was my third video I watched and you got my attention right from the start of the first video. Everything you've said here is on point and I must sadly agree. And I say "SANDLY" because it's so unfortunate that I've gone through this A LOT. I wholeheartedly wish the pastors and church congregations would truly understand this once and for all. I liked how you delivered your point of view. I could tell you're bothered by this situation we musicians have had to face. But in your case it not what you said but how you said it that makes a difference. God bless you bro. Much love from Canada.
You are absolutely correct in all that you said, I do agree church musicians should definitely be paid...if an electrician was called to wire a church would anyone expect him not to get paid?...Serious musicians take lessons which cost thousands of dollars over years of studying, quality instruments/equipment cost thousands of dollars and maintenance of you equipment isn't free..So yes church musicians should paid...The hours that go into preparation for a service is far more than the non-musician would ever know..
God bless you, my man! You are accurate in everything you said! Today, I'm a successful musician without having to be a church musician because a lot of churches are full of themselves!! And I'll give you a great example:
This church that I was working for had a special engagement at a golf country club to where the pastor (who I despise to this day) asked me to set up my gear - my gear and equipment for the artist Ben Tankard who got paid $600 for the event, and I got paid only $100. What bull#%$@!
I have never returned, nor do I have the desire to give my service for churches since!
So again, thank you for telling it like it is!
One thing I bring up with people who ask/talk with me about this, is that the more I'm paid, the more time I can afford doing church/music things and NOT working for money elsewhere.
At the same time, I understand not all churches have the same budget, so I try not to be too much of a stickler on the exact figure, especially since I'd like for their budget to stretch enough to get the personnel that will make my life easier, but they need to offer SOMETHING. SHOW how much you value your music ministry.
Terence where have u been all my life. You just got a new fan.
Thanks man. I appreciate it!!
GREAT VIDEO........many in this world feel..."oh, you're just having fun OR music is just a hobby" etc........I GUESS THAT'S WHY IT'S SO HARD TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING MUSIC. When I was playing full time, pay was VERY important as I had bills to pay. ...Thanks Terence
Plumber: Man, I can't even describe how much I LOVE this work, and helping people!
Pastor: Cool...so, no charge?
I’ve been playing in church since around 11 years of age on and off until 19 years and haven’t stopped ever since (I’m in my 40s now). I wasn’t regularly payed at my home church, but at the end of the year the Pastors admin would give all the department a check for a few hundred bucks at the most. I always received it as a token of gratitude. I’ve always had a job and God always provided for me, maybe because I didn’t seek more. Periodically, we would also be given gift cards for gear and stuff for our instruments.
God has been faithful and I’ve never desired more because I was set.
Playing outside of my home church though, that’s where I saw the extra blessings on a weekly basis. And all without leaving my home church where I served.
Everyone is different, but if it’s for the Lord, no matter who the Pastor is, we must have a right attitude and spirit or what we do is in vain. And our finances won’t get us as far. Good video.
I appreciate your desire to rant, and many of the things you put forth in this video. I believe it is a topic that could easily consume a whole hour of time. There are a couple of things I would ad to a longer video. Perhaps you will do a part 2 or even a part 3.
1) Personal responsibility. Your video '5 ways to break free from 100 dollar gigs' contains much that would fit with this topic. Whether we're the musician or the guy who shovels snow off of the sidewalk before church, we need to look in the mirror and take responsibility for what we have agreed to do. I need to put all my requirements on the table from the beginning, or ask myself 'who's dumber? Me or the guy who talked me into what I'm doing?'.
2) State of 'the church' today. I've recently been reading through the old testament. In 1 Chronicles there is quite a lot of detail about trained, skilled musicians...who were Levites. Literally thousands of musicians. But remember that in those days the Levites were supported through the tithes and offerings of tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people. Today's average church goer doesn't give anywhere near 10% of their income. Whether we are well paid, under paid, or volunteer musicians, we need to understand that 'this is not our home' Not until we all get to heaven will there be proper justice and equity.
I agree. Thanks for the rant. Many churches need to hear this.
I'm with you all the way brother I've been playing at my church for the last 20 years and I'm still getting the same pay people don't understand it takes work to make the music right at church
💯 % truth now some musicians I know get 26’500 salary, and appreciation day
each year
I have some wild stories I can tell with my experiences playing in the church. I'm a church musician out of Houston, TX and I really don't know where to start. It's a been a wild ride. This video was really on point especially when it was mentioned about the extra services, especially when we had to go do these afternoon services at other churches for various anniversaries and not getting one dime extra. Thank God that when covid hit, all the afternoon services were cut. But that's just the beginning. I've played at a church where I was getting paid a mere $200 a Sunday. Honestly it wasn't bad at the time considering the membership was roughly 15-20 people. But the pastor was so demanding, he claims that I wasn't brought in to just play, i was brought in to "lead". Lead meaning whenever there were other things going on, like for example, the grass needed cutting, the building needed painting, someone needing to be there early on Sundays to unlock the building and make sure the ac or heat was turned on depending on the time of year it was, all that was thrown on me. I had to make sure the bathrooms were cleaned and had to stay after church to lock up after service. Then it was thrown in my face week in and week out that I was the only one on "salary" and he wasn't getting paid, and he was the pastor. But it gets worse. I was told to not expect to get a check and just leave right after service. I had to make sure all those things were done, then I get the check, and leave after everyone else has gone. There's more... I went from getting paid every Sunday to every other Sunday which meant whenever there was a 5th Sunday, I wouldn't get paid because that was my give back to the Lord Sunday. Then I was put on a 1099 and was told I had to pay $25 a week in taxes. Since when are taxes taken out when you're on a 1099? Really??? Let's talk tithing.... are we supposed to tithe our 10%? Yes. Isn't that what's in the word? Yes. Does the church rely on members tithing to keep the doors open? Yes.... However does everyone tithe like they're supposed to? No. Unfortunately at that time, roughly 15 years ago I didn't tithe like I was supposed to. That was between me and God. I was asked to show a checkstub so he could justify what I was putting in church because according to "his calculations" I wasn't putting enough in church and was told I would be cursed. That's when I stood up to him and told him I wasn't showing a checkstub because that wasn't his business. Now let's talk about catching the Holy Spirit. I was told that when I play I don't hold my hands up and shout and dance around and supposedly be all into it like some of those "other" musicians do. No I'm not one of "them" but he called himself laying hands on me and whispering in my ear that I needed to feel the Holy Spirit, so I took that like just fake it and fall back and let the deacons catch me so I just gave him what he wanted. It's funny because I was looking out of the corner of my eyes trying to figure out when it was time to get up. Good Lord I can go on all day with this but back to the original topic, all of this gave him reasons to throw in my face the fact that I was the only one in the church getting paid and how he was the pastor and he wasn't getting paid. After 3 years of all this I wound up quitting and moving on, then I got a nasty phone call and being told that I did myself a favor by quitting because he was getting ready to fire me anyway. Yeah whatever. I'm at a much better place now and have been in this place for 10 years, which is the longest time I've been playing at a church since moving to Houston in 2004.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience at that church brother .. it’s something that needs healing in us especially since it was with the Lord’s people .. much love and blessings to you in your journey with the Lord
Thank-you Terence for voicing this issue so well.
I've been 30years working as a church musician, and I only got paid once which was unexpected and out of the blue, after a retreat.
I've never knew my worth as folks love what you do. As long as it's for free.?
Due to circumstances now and necessity I have to look for help like a beggar.
It's very embarrassing to say the least.
And yes all the things folks say to excuse and silence their conscience, so they don't have to recognise your dignity.
Especially when you are in a desperate housing situation.
I'm currently in a hostel.
I have an aptitude for music but the rest is work work work..
Which I love doing.
I really enjoyed your postings on your channel, and I hope and pray, that this will break the ice, on folks viewing music ministry different.
Don't get me wrong, I feel I've proved my calling for music ministry.
But as soon as you ask about some financial help due to circumstances, you get folks trying to grade you and insult and question your ethics about music ministry.
I'm 30years working at this?
I really think their should be some governing body to help music ministers get paid work at a fair rate.?
Lots of folks like myself worked for no payment for years 30 in mycase.
And we end up in poverty?
Also playing for no fee might seem a good thing but when you do this you encourage other church folk, not to pay other music ministers either, I like an unwitting black legger, who does the ministry for nothing, and then by doing this makes it impossible for Folks to see the issue of payment for music ministers who want a fair payment rate and who need it.
Especially if it's full time.
Or they are experiencing poverty and don't have a home.
How much does it take for Folks to see the fair issue here.
?
💭
I will keep on ministering, but this is an issue.
Ps
I have liked and subscribed to your channel.
Thanks again for highlighting this issue.
Godbless 👍😎💭⛪🎵🎶
If a musician is an educated professional and the church has asked him/her to use their abilities within the context of music ministry then they absolutely should be paid, just as a pastor or in many cases other support staff are.
Yes, this video is on point. I work at a church and the expectations are extremely high. However, with that being said I am able to speak freely about certain things and the church leadership actually hears me out. This has been a tremendous blessing and taken away some of the stress knowing that the leadership understands where I am coming from.
Totally agree! I was a musician in the church for 40 years and didn’t get a regular salary until the last 10 years of service.
Wow!!!
Hi. Im an established artiand/musician,/producer and i was brought up in church. My mom was the choir director. Struggling to fimd my place and getting the church to at least help financially jwas my biggest hurdle. Along with the whole chirch and its hierarchy telling me i shouldn't be gigging outside the church all while refusing to support me and my family. I left the church aand kept doing shows because my obligation as a husband and father mandates me to provide for my family. God has blessed me with other opportunities to further my craft and reach beyonf the borders of my islamd church monopoly. I have come to realise that some of us musicians may be called elsewhere from the church and perhaps that isn't all bad. It just sad that my home church doesn't see the value and hard work involved with directing and training different people hoping to create a sound worship team. Im doing mentoring and traing for up and coming musician and producers and im influential in that department. Thank you for this video. I hope all Christians esp those in church leadership see this at the very least if not by personal revelation from our Lord Himself.❤
It's a rough life for a worship leader. I think that a lot of churches do their best, but sometimes become blind to what matters. I've been a worship leader for about a decade and was cut a little over a year ago since our church lost a few "big tithers". But they kept on the media team and paid them. I haven't left the church or anything and continue to work through these issues while taking a step back from leading and they want me to come back to the position without pay. I've been seeking the Lord over a year about this because I do believe that people are quick to jump ship, and we don't always get what we "deserve". Christ paid it all for me and to him I owe all. Please pray that God would speak to me. Thank you for anyone who sees this. Also, don't take this as me bashing my church, because I love everyone there and think just a few bad steps have been made, but I boast in the Lord even when I fall short. I am not above anyone there in this matter. Thank you all!
I don't get paid at at ?♥️🙏✌️👍😁
You are absolutely correct, and your are very helpful, this is a great part of your ministry. Musicians have greatly been taken advantage of over the years.
I’m a volunteer musician but if I were to be paid, I would require a contract.
I share your frustrations, brother! To the point where I won’t work again with a local church unless that gifting is honored by being paid!
I'm a pianist and organist for our music group at church, and I really love playing, and I would never expect to be paid for it!! I just enjoy playing for everyone. Xxx🥰
I am sure you have a day job. If not you must be struggling to take care of yourself.
Are you a member of this church? Whenever I get a chance to go to my home church, I don’t expect pay and will lot accept it. Also, if it’s not your home church,I am not mad at you or anybody else that plays free of charge. That is a choice you made. When churches recruit, they come at us with a price point. So they are willing and have no problems paying.
Looks like time for a union drive.
Good rant!!! Not many folks talk about this stuff.
a musician can easily be a usher, trustee, van driver, help in the kitchen, help do things around the church, most of us are savvy on computers. but no one else with those positions can play an instrument yet along the hundreds of songs we know and learn.
They don’t need to practice and learn new material constantly, as well as the anxiety to preform well. It’s a lot of work
Man... This is accurate and I feel where you're coming from. I'd like to say though, that it's not like this everywhere.
But I think the reason that these issues are so common is because Churches aren't businesses. Many of them do not have business savy nor business practices. There are a lot of bad cultural traditions that have been passed down through "poor" Churches as well. When the history of the Church was thay they couldn't afford a musicians, they don't know how to manage their funds in a way to properly pay musicians and other people will dp it basically for free, it makes it hard to build a precedent.
At the end of the day, most Churches are supported by volunteers. If you think of the early Church, they were happening in someone's house, and that house was often a part of a community where everyone was being taken care of in one form or another. Churches today (at least in America ) function like clubs or institutions. People often attend a Church that they are not even connected to outside of services or special events. Musicians may be members, or may iust be mavericks who are traveling for a gig. Sometimes they love the Lord, sometimes they don't lol
Churches are unique and often so are their financial circumstances since they don't inherently generate revenue.
I think the most important thing is that we as musicians are educated and are able to advocare for ourselves in these situations. I grew up directing the choir (from the age of 14), then leading the Worship team and then covering for the paid musician when he was out. All of this for free. Later, after I left that Church in college because I got a paying gig at a "white Church." I found out the people I covered for were being paid lol I never thought to ask. I grew up serving in that way and was happy to do so. The Church also struggled for money, so I understood them paying for what they had to and not paying were they could not pay.
Now I'm the Worship Pastor and an elder at a Church. We can't afford to pay all of the musicians and continue to do all of the work that we do in the community. (We also do community development and a number of other structural things in our community through grants etc.) But for a time, we've had to pay contracts to a small group of musicians (including singers) to maintain the excellence of Worship since our Church is growing and I have a lot to manage. It ebs and flows, but we always try to take care of our people the best we can. It works for some people, it doesn't for others.
Ir should always be a conversation, and if we feel that we're being taken advantage of, we should also present solutions. Especially if we love the Church (overall Church). One size just won't fit all in these cases.
For clarity though, the situations described in this video are rough, common and wrong lol I've seen these things too.
Now let me say this. I have never been paid at any church where I attended regularly or was a member. I play sax and percussion. I would need a small box truck for my congas, bongos, timbales, roto-toms and various small percussion instruments. Forget about being paid. I have often been left alone to disassemble and reload back into my car. Once upon a time, very few knew that I played percussion as well as I do, because I did not have my own instruments. They only knew me as a saxophonist. The saxophone clashes with some styles, especially the way I play. However, I have been able to blend my percussions into every contemporary style. This has made some churches drool when I offer or ask to serve in music ministry. Mind you, I have NEVER brought my ENTIRE regalia to a gig. I usually go with my congas, bongos, their stands, maybe a cymbal or two and a bag of the small stuff. I recently added a tumba (bass) to my congas, and that LP Matador tumba is made of wood and much heavier than my Toca fiberglass quinto and conga. I have often gone as a guest minister or musician with my horns and percussion setup to participate as member of the universal Body of Christ.
I think there have been three churches in which I have been involved that paid other musicians. There is a fourth that may have paid guest drummers. I am not completely sure. However, since I did not play bass, drums or keyboards I never made the cut. That was once upon a time. That ended about 15 years ago (I am 61 and been walking with Jesus Christ since 1980). I now have the policy that you pay all, you pay none or I don't play. I know the work I am putting into performing with excellence. If we are all volunteers, fine. I guess it is like the pandemic "essential" and "non-essential" nonsense. If I ain't essential, then why am I up here?
My guidance for my place in music ministry comes from Ephesians 4:1-16, I Corinthians 12 and Romans 12. Overall, I am driven by Proverbs 11:24-26. Proverbs 11:26 tells me I am absolutely not to keep my artistic skills to myself, but in fact must hone them to edify my neighbors, even if I have to charge them for it to do it best.
Jeremiah 22:13
Leon: respectfully, your instruments are only considered essential by the supporting musicians. You are an extra attraction and are viewed as such.
We should have a massive nationwide strike 😂🤣
Brother: you have summed up my whole church playing life.
His gas money!
You have truly opened my eyes to the behind the scenes of music ministry. Thank you so much! This is gold! ❤ I knew some of this, but not all . Wow!!!
Agreed! I play for a lot of church down here in dfw. It takes alooot of time to sit down and learn multiple sets at once. I’ve had weeks where it’s literally back to back. There are times I do give back. I’ve blessed plenty of my friends with guitar pedals/cable/I’ve taken cuts on deals where I know I should have gotten more. But I see where the lord has brought me to and know it’s only going fwd from here. I’m always willing to bless people where blessing is giving. I’m also really to volunteer my time at some church who can’t find anyone or afford me. But this is a living and life style it’s literally my part time job. People disagree with me getting paid. But at the end of the day I have to bring food on the table and support my wife and I.
I was also told this same shit of the ministry being for God hence why request for money. But I just forgot to ask him of the pastor who is being paid. 😢
Best sermon I’ve heard in a while
I believe . The best bass players come from Detroit churches .
@@simon_patterson right . wealth comfort and fame should not be your driving force . I've played in countless churches ... Hmmmm I want this much to priase the Lord all mighty . The ability to play music is a gift from God , not everyone can do it .
Great video and thread bro! Happy subscriber many years experience bass, guitar, read write arrange, lead bands (in my former life also) etc. you know - all we do.
Seriously- best I’ve ever come across. Totally agree totally
Blessings
🙏🙏🙏
Some great points in this video for the musicians and churches of a larger scale. I go to a small 130 person church and bring an acoustic guitar each week. The worship leader sends me the songs 1-2 days before and 90% of them I already know like the back of my hand. All in it’s about 1-2 hours of work per week so I’m fine with not getting paid.
I would suggest that if you, your worship leader, and your musicians/singers are repeatedly doing what you know (and in the same way you have always known), then you are NOT redeeming the time, you are NOT doing your jobs heartily as unto the Lord and not unto man, and are actually squandering God's time and talents.
“For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.””
1 Timothy 5:18
Musicians want to be paid so they can continue playing for God, they don't play for God to get paid.
Everything you said in this video was absolutely spot on
Bottom line: KNOW YOUR WORTH!
Great vid!! This subject must be said. I have been paid and not paid over the last 3 decades plus and the many church ministries abuse this double standard with volunteers versus contract staff to full time workers. Why is the pastor paid and not volunteer musicians that are good? I have been active in mega churches to gain a great view of the “politics” of the church as well as working behind the scenes with well-known names. The responses I get from ministries sometimes is “Please Bless Us” (meaning volunteer for God). I have been told by non-Christian vendors that the Christian ministries are one of the most disloyal of clients and they gave key examples to me. I was told by a manufacturer’s rep that he feels that only 30% of Christians reflect their faith. We can’t change everyone but we can control what we do in the realm of Christian music and production ministry. Always walk in Christ even if it means you are alone in doing so since The Lord is always with us no matter what.
Terence I've been a professional musician for 42 years now, and I'm still dealing with this topic with my church as of this week. Since I told them I was leaving they now want to give me more money after playing on the low for nine years. Too late, I have another church that respects my commitment and abilities. I haven't told them I would accept the position yet because my days of playing for churches might be over. I'm tired brother!
I know the struggle man! I've seen this happen too many times...where they don't even think about you or value you much at all until you threaten to leave...
Curtis: I feel you!
A workman is worthy of his hire! I wonder if God is pleased.
Very true. I’ve served and played for free and considered my time my tithe because Time IS Money and while you can always get more money, you can, in this life, never get more time. That being said, I did that for over 10 years and recently started playing at another church and after a month they started paying me which was a blessing for sure and then 2 months in, they doubled it! God is good all the time. Worship is Warfare.
No, they should not be paid.
Only the Pastor or church minister is supposed to be paid.
The rest, tell them to get a job or start business.
They should sing and/play the instruments for the Lord,
As an act of service to God.
@@pililani_blessings go ahead and do it yourself
@@pililani_blessings Sarcasm? Right?
@@billyjacc
Am stating what the Holy Spirit revealed to me.
What He taught me.
That the gift of singing is like the gift of prophecy or speaking tongues or healing and other gifts listed in 1 Corinth 12 v 8-12, Isaiah 11 v 1-5, etc.
You don't use the gift of God to earn a living.
It is sin before God.
Singers are to sing for the Lord.
As a service to the Lord.
If they need money, they should get a job or engage in business.
Shepherds on the other hand are like the Priests in the old testament, and are to be paid from the tithes, offerings and donations.
@@liceafilms
You are missing the point.
Those who have the gifts must use them as an act of service to God.
If they don't, its them who pay dearly for it in the fires of hell.
You covered ALL the church areas. Appreciate it. Definitely gonna share. Nuffsaid
I realize this video was put out a while ago, but I have to say…listening to you describe everything you go through as a church musician gave me flashbacks! I could feel my blood pressure going up. It’s been a while since I played at church, but all those feelings and frustrations came running back when you talked about them. While I do miss playing drums at church, I don’t miss it that much. Great video, oh, and we never got paid either.
Thank you now let package this and to send to ever church and up and coming pastor ❤
Musicians should always get paid.
Your rant is beautiful. I'm not even a musician and I got a lot out of this. I agree with a LOT of what you said, but even the parts I didn't fancy very much, the rant WAS beautiful throughout. Thank you for sayi
ng it out loud.
Quick question. I’m not a money hungry person and I kinda don’t care about the being paid part but I was told by my old organ buddy that I’m too humble. I’m a church drummer and get $40/week I’ve been playing since I was 2 and I’m pretty advanced and have had the chance to play behind some good names. I go to church to play for God and fellowship together but I start raising my eyebrow when they feel like I’m worth $40/week and the piano player can get $200-$600/week. Maybe I’m viewing it wrong but I thought that was kind of unfair
This is one of those things where it's kinda up to you man. If it's your thing to play for that amount and you are happy with it, then that's all that matters.
However, there is a direct connection between what people pay you and how valuable they see you. So if it is the case where you feel you are worth more and what you bring to the table does not match your current pay, then it's ok to ask for what you feel you deserve.
As far as your comment about being "too humble", stay tuned for the video that is coming this weekend about humility and arrogance. It will perhaps shed some light on this subject for you.
Get away from the manipulators. Or at the very least, tell them how you feel and give them a chance to make it right bro. .
Terence, this is such a great video! Please forgive me if my assumption is wrong, but I am probably 18 to 20 years older than you and I want to let you know that all of the issues that you have so accurately identified was also happening back in the early 1960(s)! During my time as a church musician, there was a good pastor who paid me very well and requested that I never talk about or tell anyone about my pay. He also explained to me why paying church musicians had become such a controversial issue. To quote his words; “Why should the Church purchase a COW when there are so many people willing to donate a free Carton Of Milk !”
Terence, thank you so much for this video. You said it all. The injustice to church musician is out of this world. This is one of the reasons most church musicians live below average life. Let anyone say what they like, you have spoken the truth let them take it or leave it. Kudos
No, they should not be paid.
Only the Pastor or church minister is supposed to be paid.
The rest, tell them to get a job or start business.
They should sing and/play the instruments for the Lord,
As an act of service to God.
Me and many of my fellow musicians and leaders are well compensated by God.
Personal Observation, If anyone I know including me, treats God as his/her master, the Lord Blesses us way beyond our pay grade,
If we sin or make continuous mistakes, our Master does things as a master should.
Just a consistent personal observation from a third world country who can barely compensate any musician in general
I went through this as a former worship leader, lol! Was expected by the pastor to put anybody on vocals AND provide 3 hours of vocal sectionals and give them their harmony parts only to have all of them forget their parts come Sunday! Keep in mind I had a full time day job doing all of this too. 🤦♀️ I had to hold band rehearsals for the musicians as well and they wouldn’t all show up for rehearsals OR the actual service. I had to call them and practically beg them to show up - it was like herding cats. And the Pastor blamed me for his church not growing- said I was “the thorn”. His exact words. I did get a love offering but had to remind them to pay me, lol. Not sure if I want to go back into the church music ministry. 😢
I was told by a pastor that people left their church because of my playing.. when I started playing for a different church, my old church tried to offer me almost double what they were paying me, and I turned them down. If people leave because of music, then they were there for the wrong reason anyway.
@@oljones31 I completely agree!
Sorry that happened to you. My question is, why did you allow that and not propose a salary to your pastor?
@@KareesBrown Hello, I was younger at the time and got excited because the pastor proposed an opportunity to me to be their worship leader in their startup church. It was my first time someone offered me a position to be a lead worship leader and I wasn’t thinking about money at that time until I realized how much work was involved. The church also had a very small budget and was too dependent on a few members within the church that made 6 figures or more to pay their tithes regularly. Oh well lesson learned. I was naive on a lot of things and the Pastor took advantage of his members. I would never do that again.
you have been used ,, thats all
I'm acutely aware that (unlike the UK), in the USA there are many large - often huge - churches, with well-known Televangelists as Preachers/Pastors, which are run AS BUSINESSES. Where this is the case, IMO musicians should be properly paid and treated BETTER than they would be treated for the equivalent secular work.
Well done!!! Outstanding message!
For it was the king’s command concerning them that a certain portion should be for the singers, a quota day by day.
Nehemiah 11:23 NKJV
Considered in the light of how much the guy that mows the lawn gets paid,,,,, most musicians I know never got paid. Depending on the size of the church and the ability of the musician, there maybe a time that the sacrifice given to be on a worship team might be to much. It’s an individual thing. When it becomes a job, either get paid or get out. All things covered in prayer,,, I was lead to leave the team. Zero regrets.
I agree 100% pay me or I move on I am a professional and I will not stand for that lack of respect !
You hit the nail on the head, Amen!!!😊
Church musicians should be paid without a doubt
I play lead guitar I have 55 years experience I've into gospel about 15 years and I've experience experienced every thing you've said amen to every thing you've said 😊
Originally when I started playing for church it was for the Catholic Church, through all the yearly Worship Events and Youth Group attendances, I did not get paid. Eventually I ended up getting paid by the worship leaders because we started to play music for one of the biggest youth festivals in the south, Abbey Youth Festival. 5000+ adults and kids every year. and the $$ was fantastic. I eventually moved on from that because it wasn't consistent and the catholic churches around here refuse to evolve with the times. I eventually moved to another church under the Methodist Denomination and at my church, we get paid per service and per event. The other thing is that everyone who is involved as far as the Contemporary Worship Leader, the Traditional Worship Leader, and several other staff on the choir. So they're all trained professionals and I'm currently going into my third year of music school in Jazz Studies & Music Education. Yep double major!
This is a good and important discussion. I do not look at the musician in these situations. I look at the church and its policy. Inasmuch as this is as much ministry, albeit different from, pastor. I do not think a church should employ a musician, paid or not, that is not a believer. That is my biggest concern.
The next issue is fairness. Most churches I have experienced that pay musicians do not pay all musicians. They pay drummers, bass players and primary keyboardists. Either none should be paid or all should be paid. If the musician is considered not good enough to be paid, then they should not be on the stage.
Even when all musicians are believers, I wonder about using people who are not involved with the church where they are paid. Paid or not, their work should be part of their Christian walk and duty in accordance with Ephesians 4:11-16. Hirelings and mercenaries should not be employed. The church is something completely different from any other organization in that God calls it an organism. We are parts of the Body of Christ and as such function to the edification and growth not of ourselves, but the Body.
I actually agree with everything you are saying. These are my concerns as it relates to the mission of the Church. There are churches that are just churches. I do not refer to them. They are not about Jesus Christ's mission. However, those churches that are of the Church, walking in Spirit and in Truth, seeking first God's agenda and character, are my concern. These are those who must be wary of expedience, because it will compromise our calling.
Absolutely said it the best 👌I played for years without ever getting paid, then another Pastor took over out church and he started paying me, and God moved on me to leave. Next church I brought my own equipment and church didn't pay me but I love God so I gave my talent and my time! God has the pay check ✔️
I 100% agree to all of this! I felt those words because I lived them myself as a church musician. I also have some biblical evidence as to why church musicians should be paid.
Thank you mel, can you share the verses you refer to.. Enkosi
You said it all brother, Bravo
I have never known a church musician to be paid here in the UK - a music leader may be employed but everyone else is a volunteer. It’s a “ministry“. In fact, EVERYONE, apart from the Minister, is a volunteer.
It may be different in the UK, but here in the US churches aren't taxed. They all operate like businesses, so they should pay the "employees" accordingly.
I use to be a church musician, but after I found this out I stopped playing. I wouldn't recommend any musician
play in a church if they aren't being paid but the church has an annual salary.
@@ZackAngelMusic it’s the same.
Do you have church accountants? Secretaries? Building engineers? Those people all work for free?
I have been a church musician for years. Everything on this video is 100% correct. Fortunately I was paid well (I was Minister of Music) and I had a budget, but I was victim to talk from members, many of whom felt I shouldn’t get paid. Eventually I resigned and since then I haven’t played for another church. There is a concept that we musicians get paid for only 2 hours of work. No one seems to know all the preparation involved before Sunday. SAD.
I agree 100%. Played for free for years. I didn’t feel this way at first. But after years of doing this. I believe with all the preparation it takes. Musicians should be paid SOMETHING. I’m not saying go crazy. But at least show your trying. Musicians are usually the first to get Burnt out. I love God and playing music for him. But it would just be nice to get something. This video is 100% in line. If you can’t pay your team get something in place. For a future sit them down and get something in place. So they see your trying.
I interviewed for a worship leader job. They said ten hours a week expected, and the pay was $150 per week. I made one comment: "That's a little light", about the pay because I knew how much time I spend during the week finding songs, learning them, teaching the band, rehearsing (3 hours mid week) and prep rehearsal for Sat. eve and Sun. morning services. That alone is over twenty hours! Needless to say, they did not call me for a second interview.
Of course church musicians should be paid! You provide the service, you get paid for it; that's how things are supposed to be. Great message!
No, they should not be paid.
Only the Pastor or church minister is supposed to be paid.
The rest, tell them to get a job or start business.
They should sing and/play the instruments for the Lord,
As an act of service to God.
@@pililani_blessingsby your logic the pastor should do the work for the lord for free too 🤦♂️ how stupid
@@pililani_blessingsthere's different ways to look at this though,in my case I get paid $125 week to play each Sunday, all though I've never asked for a salary, there is a lot that goes into being a musician/music director. buying your own equipment, sacrificing your own rehearsal time, getting songs just a day before service.which is a lot of work and I feel of the church can afford to honor you or compensate you in some way ,then they should.
I’m not a church musician, I have done some gospel gigs but everything you said was spot on brother
I remember playing at a church one time and one day the guys in my band were like hey leon we got a raise did you get yours I was like no so I went to speak to the pastor about it now at the time I was making 125 for a sunday...and I asked him hey can I get a raise of 250 and I am good with that ...he said look ..the reason you won't get a raise is because you just started plus you play the Saxaphone which is an extra not nessisarily needed but it's nice to add to the sound..I said right exactly which is why you should pay me more . He said look if you don't like what I am paying you now you can leave...so I got up and said yea ok bro I see how you are and I left ...I told the band what happened. And those guys loved me because not only I could really really play well but I was very humble about my skill level I was never bragadousious or cocky I just wanted what I deserved..so I later found out after I left one by one each band member left the church because of me I was so humbled by the love that band showed me...
Thank you for the real deal musicians struggle with....