Thank you for this content! I'm a recovering minister of music. The abuse is real! I lost the joy of playing music for a few years. I sold all of my gear and walked away. I have recently bought another keyboard and am in the process of regaining the joy of playing again. Your content has encouraged and inspired me! Thanks❤
The abuse is real. I started playing when I was in the 8th grade (2011) and left in 2022. I recently realized that 2011 was when I first started having Migraines and I’ve been having them ever since. I personally don’t think it was a coincidence. Parents please stand up for your young musicians. You won’t go to Hell for protecting your child from abuse. Just look through the fruits of the spirit. If these qualities aren’t being displayed by your leadership in how they deal with your child, their is an issue that needs to be rectified. And to all the young musicians, your feelings are valid; and it is not ok for them to treat you in this way. Sending much love, prayers, and support to you ALL❤.
"If the pastor, or anybody in leadership there at the church, gets involved in every single aspect and detail of what you do..." I've found this to be more prevalent with pastors who used to be low-end or middling musicians. It's as if they want to run the music ministry because it's something on their bucket list of "accomplishments." I've had the experience of pastors popping up at choir rehearsal; doodling on the piano while I'm teaching vocal parts; holding his finger up to me to shut me up, so that HE could (wrongly) teach a vocal part; and, at one point, declaring himself "Minister of Music!" 😔🤷🏽♂️ I'm almost ready to just let it all go! 😢
I absolutely had this at my last church . The pastor and his on staff sidekick were unbelievably manipulative and slippery. Literally couldn’t nail jelly to the wall, so much wasted time and energy. Utterly self deceived. Worship ministry is a narcissist’s playground in these days
I had this; 1) Unpaid church outings, 2) Anniversaries held on Easter Sunday, and coming home at 10pm. 3) Bringing up issues in the music department and being ignored; ending up in me being the one yelled at! Been through it all!
@ceelothatmane9421 I believe that either paid or unpaid, do not allow a church to take advantage of your gift. And don't let promises from the leadership of a raise, or anything (We're gonna bless ya!") go unfulfilled. Anytime that happens, a ministry is lying to you.
So have I....I started playing for this church in 2003, I've been thru it all...the other musicians had a little click circle and never included me, always on my back for stupid things, being in church all day and I was gonna paid 125 after 20 years I finally and that was the best decision I ever made
#1 for me is bad theology. I don’t believe in making money off the church, so the music is my service to the church especially since I play a more complimentary instrument. The guitar. If there’s bad theology, no need for me being a blessing to a cult. I was at a church and the pastor used the Martha and Mary story to illustrate that he needs more Marthas in service to HIM personally. I had to get outta there.
Thank you for the good advice. It's so easy to just complain and not offer solutions. You are providing needed advice to musicians on how to open up the lines of communication and grow to something better. We need to keep a positive attitude and always look for the way forward.
You have to pray a lot in church You are in effect a minister. Pray for yourself and these people. Yes the Devil is busy. Never seen one that did not have multiple issues like this.
I had this same mess in the last church that I played at ( not for , because I play for the LORD not the church. They lie ,from the pastor to the so called deacons. But they don’t know that they will be judged in time.
You know who didn’t have to worry about being fired by their church? The worshipers in the Scriptures. Because “church” was not their employer. And worship wasn’t a gig. It was an authentic expression from their hearts. I’m a PK, been a church musician all my life. I was a worship leader for nine years. You know what I think is “toxic?” Musicians who only come to church because they’re on some kind of payroll.
Well my experience took a toll on me and I broke coz of toxic pple around.. I tried setting some expectations on my part n giving excuses for me to remain, just ended up being so depressed. I just left
I don't know of any churches in my area that even pay a dime. Much less regular gigs outside of church that pay at least fair compensation for time and equipment expense.
I've been in such a toxic church environmen where the pastor wants to tell you songs to t😢each the choir even in praise and worship such kills creativity and weakens your moral ,A church full of. Gossip from the head to the least I was not trained to be in such place there is no love a lot of power tussle in the same church Hm I was not enjoying myself because I believe so much in unity because that's the only way we can do a better work in church i couldn't fit in God being so merciful i Applied for a job i got it and disappeared from the city to a better place where I released my first album .
@userjoeclassicseze: Never forget that an organization takes on the spirit of its leader! Toxic church usually equals toxic pastor! I've dealt with this myself, and it's not about them wanting what's best for the church, it's about CONTROL!
The apostate church Mmmh mmmmh Could be yours Left doing sound Singers would change microphones Pick up any one each time Pastor would grab a wireless mic and hide, expecting me to know he had this mic in the first place Self appointed floor manager would scream her lungs out in a split second if sound wasn’t on some one’s mic yet
The sound guy often has a horrible job, especially at smaller churches. Most musicians in these settings are inexperienced, with huge egos and opinions. Most people dont appreciate sound techs and could care less about the struggles of the sound tech. The stress this creates is off the chart. On the other hand, I used to volunteer my time to help churches out by training people on sound, but there's often one person or an established clique of people who will fight you with manipulation and gossip. Alot of smaller churches will have a (self appointed) sound guy who claims excessive ownership and won't let you into his area without a hassle and struggle. These are usually the guys who love to tinker, pushing buttons and turning knobs, yet don't have the fundamental ability to fix a sound issue, mostly because they aren't musically experienced and can't hear what's going on. There is almost always massive push back with these guys about every little proposed solution you may have, often through badmouthing you to the leadership and staff. My hats off to anyone who can deal with people like this. I've ruined my health trying to help out places like this. Its rarely appreciated and often a hopeless proposition trying to fix toxic places. This may sound biased to say, but more often than not, the older the congregation and staff the worse the fight you'll have on your hands. This is mainly because most older people don't hear well anymore, are impatient and also opposed to modern tech.
First of all, sunday ain’t in the Bible and neither are any of the pagan holidays..so one shouldn’t expect the spirit of truth. The religion is not pushed by Paul, Peter nor the Messiah, not King David of Israel nor anyone else in the book. The religion wasn’t created until after the Bible was written. Formed by a certain nation some 265 years after ascension. Filtered with multiple. Ain’t nothing going to get better in there…..claiming to follow the Christ yet follow none of the festivals he celebrated and commissioned his followers to do. Save yourselves, by studying
I really don’t understand. In our country (Australia) we not only don’t get paid, but we also don’t seek to get paid, and any toxic environment is low, rare or quickly sorted out. Maybe that’s the secret - keep the money out of the evangelical equation. We do it for the Lord as a service. I genuinely consider playing as a privilege. We have 27 million people, you have around 333+ million. Theres not the budget to pay people. Mate - I think our way is better. But I respect your difficult situation and wish you all the best working through it.
I was dedicated to a church by the name of Harvest For Christ under the leadership of Marc Royster, in Miami, Florida and it was the of the worst churches that I had ever been apart of. Eventually I left and the church eventually fell apart because no one could see his vision and his wife was totally in control of him. They didn’t pay the Musician and wanted everyone to always volunteer. It was a total cult.
This whole video sounds like a spiel no different than working for a private business. Something is wrong with the entire system when you have to "record notes and meetings", no different than dealing with a secular company.
Let the wheat and the tare grow together and GOD will do the separating. Are you against GOD brother?! I wonder because you come against all things GOD. Like don't Dance in the Church, don't Prophecy in the Church, don't date in the Church blah blah blah. The Musicians don't run the church a lot of them are just there for the money anyway. Not even saved!
I'm always amazed by people who think they can control the pulpit when they're not the shepherd. The shepherd sees more than what you can as a musician. I understand some of you have a lot on your plate, but some have no discipline. Not everyone here is legitimate. Some of you are just here to show off because you don't want to follow the rules of the church that you're playing for. When you were employed, there were rules and regulations that you needed to follow, even if it was a church. If you don't follow them, do you get fired? It's straightforward. But then, some of them want to use scripture and try to go back and forth with the leader. It's never going to be on your side. You might as well leave. The accountability that I'm seeing is just amazing. Some of all of you have no discipline or accountability. And no, I'm not a pastor of a church. I'm just observing some things and behaviors based on people I know and what I see.
Every church you left or were forced out of, did you have a problem? It seems like you have a serious issue with obedience to the word of God, rather than a problem with the pastor or the member of those churches! Look at the person in the mirror!
I would encourage you to go back and study the New Testament about what the word really says about pastors. Current pastors today, hold themselves in too high esteem. The Bible says that he who wants to be the greatest monkey, should be servant of them all. It's sad, but I have no very few pastors who behave this way. This is coming from a 48 year old preacher's kid who's been in Ministry all my life. If someone's telling you that you have to do everything your pastor says because he's the shepherd, that sounds like manipulation of the scriptures to me.
Thank you for this content! I'm a recovering minister of music. The abuse is real! I lost the joy of playing music for a few years. I sold all of my gear and walked away. I have recently bought another keyboard and am in the process of regaining the joy of playing again. Your content has encouraged and inspired me! Thanks❤
The abuse is real. I started playing when I was in the 8th grade (2011) and left in 2022. I recently realized that 2011 was when I first started having Migraines and I’ve been having them ever since. I personally don’t think it was a coincidence. Parents please stand up for your young musicians. You won’t go to Hell for protecting your child from abuse. Just look through the fruits of the spirit. If these qualities aren’t being displayed by your leadership in how they deal with your child, their is an issue that needs to be rectified. And to all the young musicians, your feelings are valid; and it is not ok for them to treat you in this way. Sending much love, prayers, and support to you ALL❤.
"If the pastor, or anybody in leadership there at the church, gets involved in every single aspect and detail of what you do..."
I've found this to be more prevalent with pastors who used to be low-end or middling musicians. It's as if they want to run the music ministry because it's something on their bucket list of "accomplishments." I've had the experience of pastors popping up at choir rehearsal; doodling on the piano while I'm teaching vocal parts; holding his finger up to me to shut me up, so that HE could (wrongly) teach a vocal part; and, at one point, declaring himself "Minister of Music!" 😔🤷🏽♂️
I'm almost ready to just let it all go! 😢
Might be best. Let them have it see how he likes it.
I absolutely had this at my last church . The pastor and his on staff sidekick were unbelievably manipulative and slippery. Literally couldn’t nail jelly to the wall, so much wasted time and energy. Utterly self deceived. Worship ministry is a narcissist’s playground in these days
NOT EVERY CHURCH........
@@frederickweeksjr.1189
He never said "every church." Can you read? You do not seem to know what the Caps Lock key is for either.
I had this; 1) Unpaid church outings, 2) Anniversaries held on Easter Sunday, and coming home at 10pm. 3) Bringing up issues in the music department and being ignored; ending up in me being the one yelled at! Been through it all!
#1 should be bad theology. But that’s just me
@ceelothatmane9421 I believe that either paid or unpaid, do not allow a church to take advantage of your gift. And don't let promises from the leadership of a raise, or anything (We're gonna bless ya!") go unfulfilled. Anytime that happens, a ministry is lying to you.
So have I....I started playing for this church in 2003, I've been thru it all...the other musicians had a little click circle and never included me, always on my back for stupid things, being in church all day and I was gonna paid 125 after 20 years I finally and that was the best decision I ever made
I now see that I’ve been in several toxic situations 🤦🏾♂️
#1 for me is bad theology. I don’t believe in making money off the church, so the music is my service to the church especially since I play a more complimentary instrument. The guitar. If there’s bad theology, no need for me being a blessing to a cult.
I was at a church and the pastor used the Martha and Mary story to illustrate that he needs more Marthas in service to HIM personally. I had to get outta there.
Thank you for the good advice. It's so easy to just complain and not offer solutions. You are providing needed advice to musicians on how to open up the lines of communication and grow to something better. We need to keep a positive attitude and always look for the way forward.
Never been n a church like this. Sad for those who have.
You have to pray a lot in church
You are in effect a minister. Pray for yourself and these people. Yes the Devil is busy. Never seen one that did not have multiple issues like this.
I had this same mess in the last church that I played at ( not for , because I play for the LORD not the church. They lie ,from the pastor to the so called deacons. But they don’t know that they will be judged in time.
You know who didn’t have to worry about being fired by their church? The worshipers in the Scriptures. Because “church” was not their employer. And worship wasn’t a gig. It was an authentic expression from their hearts. I’m a PK, been a church musician all my life. I was a worship leader for nine years. You know what I think is “toxic?” Musicians who only come to church because they’re on some kind of payroll.
FACTS!! 💯
I get your point, but the compensation of the Levitical Priesthood is biblical. It is the literal reason for the establishment of a nationwide tithe.
So your pastor doesn't take any pay either, that's rare. Or is he only there for money? Its not an either/or situation.
Ok PK... You were literally fed from a church salary. Church is toxic bc too many of y'all are narcissistic and delusional.
Well my experience took a toll on me and I broke coz of toxic pple around.. I tried setting some expectations on my part n giving excuses for me to remain, just ended up being so depressed. I just left
Sad however Thank You for sharing this podcast/video very true but sad.
Hope you get to your 100,000 frfr 💯💪🏿
I don’t even get paid 😅😅😅… and our worship leader doesn’t know anything about music nor how to play an instrument. 😅😅
😮Sad
Tell your worship leader to get a flute 🤣🤣🤣
Same
I don't know of any churches in my area that even pay a dime. Much less regular gigs outside of church that pay at least fair compensation for time and equipment expense.
what about if your pastor doesnt really value your gift.....i.e. he plays down your department or doesn't invest in it?
Facts ma bro...Church these days are toxic for real....Am planning on leaving miyself.
It's getting real!!! Terrance thanks for these videos
These are some great videos. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I've been in such a toxic church environmen where the pastor wants to tell you songs to t😢each the choir even in praise and worship such kills creativity and weakens your moral ,A church full of. Gossip from the head to the least I was not trained to be in such place there is no love a lot of power tussle in the same church Hm I was not enjoying myself because I believe so much in unity because that's the only way we can do a better work in church i couldn't fit in God being so merciful i Applied for a job i got it and disappeared from the city to a better place where I released my first album .
@userjoeclassicseze:
Never forget that an organization takes on the spirit of its leader! Toxic church usually equals toxic pastor! I've dealt with this myself, and it's not about them wanting what's best for the church, it's about CONTROL!
The apostate church
Mmmh mmmmh
Could be yours
Left doing sound
Singers would change microphones
Pick up any one each time
Pastor would grab a wireless mic and hide, expecting me to know he had this mic in the first place
Self appointed floor manager would scream her lungs out in a split second if sound wasn’t on some one’s mic yet
The sound guy often has a horrible job, especially at smaller churches. Most musicians in these settings are inexperienced, with huge egos and opinions. Most people dont appreciate sound techs and could care less about the struggles of the sound tech. The stress this creates is off the chart. On the other hand, I used to volunteer my time to help churches out by training people on sound, but there's often one person or an established clique of people who will fight you with manipulation and gossip. Alot of smaller churches will have a (self appointed) sound guy who claims excessive ownership and won't let you into his area without a hassle and struggle. These are usually the guys who love to tinker, pushing buttons and turning knobs, yet don't have the fundamental ability to fix a sound issue, mostly because they aren't musically experienced and can't hear what's going on. There is almost always massive push back with these guys about every little proposed solution you may have, often through badmouthing you to the leadership and staff. My hats off to anyone who can deal with people like this. I've ruined my health trying to help out places like this. Its rarely appreciated and often a hopeless proposition trying to fix toxic places. This may sound biased to say, but more often than not, the older the congregation and staff the worse the fight you'll have on your hands. This is mainly because most older people don't hear well anymore, are impatient and also opposed to modern tech.
Can you do one on band court following worship where your WL is the judge and your bandmates are the jury?
First of all, sunday ain’t in the Bible and neither are any of the pagan holidays..so one shouldn’t expect the spirit of truth. The religion is not pushed by Paul, Peter nor the Messiah, not King David of Israel nor anyone else in the book. The religion wasn’t created until after the Bible was written. Formed by a certain nation some 265 years after ascension. Filtered with multiple. Ain’t nothing going to get better in there…..claiming to follow the Christ yet follow none of the festivals he celebrated and commissioned his followers to do. Save yourselves, by studying
I really don’t understand. In our country (Australia) we not only don’t get paid, but we also don’t seek to get paid, and any toxic environment is low, rare or quickly sorted out.
Maybe that’s the secret - keep the money out of the evangelical equation. We do it for the Lord as a service. I genuinely consider playing as a privilege. We have 27 million people, you have around 333+ million. Theres not the budget to pay people.
Mate - I think our way is better. But I respect your difficult situation and wish you all the best working through it.
Thank you much
I was dedicated to a church by the name of Harvest For Christ under the leadership of Marc Royster, in Miami, Florida and it was the of the worst churches that I had ever been apart of. Eventually I left and the church eventually fell apart because no one could see his vision and his wife was totally in control of him. They didn’t pay the Musician and wanted everyone to always volunteer. It was a total cult.
Terrence is a treasure...
Until the Lord gives me a clear sign to get back into music ministry, I’m pretty much done with it. It will destroy you.
99 percent of smaller churches are like you describe. This is why I quit the church music scene.
This whole video sounds like a spiel no different than working for a private business. Something is wrong with the entire system when you have to "record notes and meetings", no different than dealing with a secular company.
I thought I was the only one lol
Nope
If your treated badly then that's not love or church - leave
In my field, we say, "If you didn't write it down, it didn't happen."
Let the wheat and the tare grow together and GOD will do the separating. Are you against GOD brother?! I wonder because you come against all things GOD. Like don't Dance in the Church, don't Prophecy in the Church, don't date in the Church blah blah blah. The Musicians don't run the church a lot of them are just there for the money anyway. Not even saved!
I'm always amazed by people who think they can control the pulpit when they're not the shepherd. The shepherd sees more than what you can as a musician. I understand some of you have a lot on your plate, but some have no discipline. Not everyone here is legitimate. Some of you are just here to show off because you don't want to follow the rules of the church that you're playing for. When you were employed, there were rules and regulations that you needed to follow, even if it was a church. If you don't follow them, do you get fired? It's straightforward. But then, some of them want to use scripture and try to go back and forth with the leader. It's never going to be on your side. You might as well leave. The accountability that I'm seeing is just amazing. Some of all of you have no discipline or accountability. And no, I'm not a pastor of a church. I'm just observing some things and behaviors based on people I know and what I see.
This mindset is what enables the toxic narcissism from the pulpit. You could've saved your energy typing so much and said "follow and swallow".
Every church I have had to leave or been forced out of was primarily a pastor problem. "Follow and swallow" church members contributed in a large way.
Every church you left or were forced out of, did you have a problem? It seems like you have a serious issue with obedience to the word of God, rather than a problem with the pastor or the member of those churches! Look at the person in the mirror!
I would encourage you to go back and study the New Testament about what the word really says about pastors. Current pastors today, hold themselves in too high esteem. The Bible says that he who wants to be the greatest monkey, should be servant of them all. It's sad, but I have no very few pastors who behave this way. This is coming from a 48 year old preacher's kid who's been in Ministry all my life. If someone's telling you that you have to do everything your pastor says because he's the shepherd, that sounds like manipulation of the scriptures to me.