Just FYI, when I say in the interview that someone isn’t necessarily “irrational” for believing the BoM is historical, I had “delusional” in my head, but “irrational” came out. I don’t think I’d stand by saying someone isn’t being irrational (everyone is irrational about things from time to time), but I’d stand by saying they aren’t being delusional.
Yes I agree with this. Religious belief may at many times be irrational, but that doesn’t make it bad. In our culture today we are very concerned about everything being rational, but a belief doesn’t have to be rational to be valid or fulfilling. Many of us, even those who are not religious, hold beliefs that are irrational at face value but serve a deeper purpose in our lives.
@maklelan Dan I enjoy your biblical subject critiques, and your manner in doing them, but am confused by your "irrationality" when it comes to belief in the Book of Mormon. Yes, you say "everyone is irrational about things from time to time", it seems to me that you are rational in your approach to the bible, but not towards the BoM, and accept this as reasonable? I'm not searching for an argument, and genuinely want to understand where you are coming from, as it simply doesn't make sense to me (as an atheist). If you do reply, my only further comment will be "thankyou". Regards. Edit: I have only skimmed this video, and came here after searching about you.
Dan, I love the way you apporach things, I think that looking at things how they truely are, leaving behind the need to merely prove someones own dogma, and yet still accept that some thing can and still are true though they may not always be perfectly definable, is a healthy way to approach things... Your appoach is very refreshing and actually a great reliefe to many topics I pondered about for many years, for I always had the impression that the God of the Old testament is so inconsistent, unreliable, contradictive and at times even evil, at least the way he is presented, but never really found a well founded, scientific and yet also mature spiritual apporach of it.. Not seeing that, has bothered me, now seeing it does happen, is awesome, and I even think a great way in a very healthy direction for all of us.. So keep it going
As someone who's now a post mormon married to a prog-mo where we both were tbms when we married - Dan's work has brought so much healing to me. To know that I'm not crazy for seeing inconsistencies and being bothered by them But this interview in particular brought another layer of healing in being able to accept the faith that others have, where before I just couldn't not look down on them. "If they actually accept the Bible's definition of faith, then they should be happy to believe despite the data" is excellent framing that softened my heart
From an active Latter-day Saint, I'm grateful you've found healing. People will believe what they have deeply personal reasons to believe regardless of how it aligns with the deeply personal experiences of others, and the more love and soft hearts we can have for each other in all of this the better.
Dan’s the best. I am in a mixed-faith marriage, and we disagree on how to raise the kids. Once during an argument, I realized that although I hate the institutional LDS church, if my kids grew up to be like Dan, I’d have no complaints. None. He calls out toxic doctrines and practices, and he knows the history problems and doesn’t attempt apologetics… he goes in with his eyes open and takes the good and rejects the bad. And he’s done so his entire lifecycle that I’ve known him. Knowing him has given me peace, and that peace gave me space to be able to heal in many ways. What’s more Christlike than handing out peace, protecting marginalized communities, calling out religious hypocrisy, and healing people’s damaged souls?
Are you not afraid your kids will grow up to believe they can become Gods? This is the same lie satan told adam and eve that if they ate of the apple they would be like the most high. This is not the God of the bible.
The best!? Still believes all the bullshit of the so called religion. Invented. Plagiarised. Mumbo jumbo rubbish! And not to mention all the damage that the invented religion has done. And i include all religions. But the Mormons are the worst. Treating woman as inferior. Black peoples are banned, for being evil. And then all of a sudden, they are okay. Deluded. Delusional. God talks to the bishops. What a load of rubbish!
He wasn't raised Mormon, fully admits he this escaped harmful teaching aimed at youth, and is a white educated male. Don't get me wrong, I greatly admire Dan & am a patreon supporter even. Its just that his example shows that being raised out of the church avoided a lot of trauma and can be healthier IMO.
He isn't very good at what he does....when you fact check him i watched a number of his video's and he missed so much information and some of this information is available through the LDS church so I mean he doesn't utilize what's available he just makes crazy claims
@@torreyintahoe I am NOT a Mormon, I can prove this guy a liar, and the LDS church is a liar. However the LDS Church does publish information unaltered. They just deny the evidence.
I'll join the chorus in expressing my appreciation of a terrific interview. I'm an ex-Lutheran (Missouri Synod) who deconverted in my teens for intellectual reasons but found it difficult emotionally, so I can understand why thoughtful Mormons might choose to remain in the church. If I were a betting man, I would predict that Dan will eventually leave the church when the cognitive dissonance becomes too great, but I completely understand why this might not ever happen, or why it may take a long time until it does happen. Incidentally, here's one of the things that contributed to my own apostasy: A very smart Mormon kid moved into my neighborhood. We bonded over a shared love of debate, and one of our topics, naturally enough, was religion. I argued in favor of my Lutheranism, and he in favor of LDS doctrine, and a turning point for me was when I realized that the arguments I was presenting against his faith could, with a few tweaks, be deployed with equal effect against my own. That gave me pause, and it helped to instill in me a habit of questioning my own beliefs with the same vigor that I would apply to others'. That habit has served me very well.
Dan is my favorite scholar. I’ve left the church and honestly don’t judge why he stays in it/ but he has helped me navigate so much of religion in general since leaving the church and finding peace in deconstructing without fear or shame. Also two children who are gay/ and I love he supports that it undeniably
What's incredible to me is, religions don't have to patriarchal, and once they've unlocked that level, they can go to the other many areas, like being queerphobic, racist, sexist, etc.
Dan s a false teacher, he reminds me of the falsehoods taught by Korihor in the Book of Mormon.Almost exactly word for word.I wanted to throw up after watching two agnostics, make light of the Restoration and my Savior's sacrifice for me.
We've all been waiting for this podcast for 2 years and it did not disappoint one bit, thanks to John's amazing interview skills to probe out the right questions at the right time and for Dan's ability to respond clearly and directly. Bravo to both of you in coming together to enhance all of us whose lives are intertwined in Mormonism.
You are an AMAZING conversationalist & interviewer!!! I love when hosts LET THEIR GUESTS SPEAK & HELP them flesh out their insight, rather than interrupt with something they’ve already said in 5 other videos 😂. This was EPIC. Thank you 🙏🏼
John is such a concrete thinker! Repeatedly, "Was there a specific scripture passage that you wanted to understand, that made you want to spend years studying and enter a career around ancient languages and cultures?" 😂
Really appreciated this interview. I've been following Dan on the clock app for a long time now, and I'm impressed at how diverse his audience is--Mormons, Catholic and Protestant Christians, Jews, and more. And I appreciated that you interviewed an active member. You've often said that your goal is not to attack the LDS Church but to inform consent, and this is a good example.
Whoah! As a member my entire life (54 yrs), this guy is blowing my mind. I was definitely taught evolution was not a viable option to explain the origins of man; the prophet was the mouth piece of God and was not questions; all the scriptures were literal and historic; your leaders knew best; homosexuals were not following the plan of creation; polygamy was going to be a system of relationships in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (because there would be more woman then men there; ……all the dogma and more. He had missionaries tell him the prophet was only a prophet as long as he was acting like one and was NOT always correct?! Man, he experienced a different church than myself. 🤯
It’s my new life’s goal to be able to contemplate, research, and discuss scripture with the same fascination yet emotional detachment that Dan has. He’s kind of turning scripture from something I talk exclusively with my therapist about to something I want to make the theme of next month’s trivia night
as and LDS pimo status I've grown a fascination with the bible in it's scholarly context. This has helped me immensely due to having trouble shifting the way I saw myself and the world.
I'm so happy to hear that Maklelan and David Bokovoy know each other. David Bokovoy was a huge influence in my life (as my seminary teacher) while I was in the church and Maklelan is a huge influence in my life while deconstructing mormonism. I'm so happy you interviewed them both! Thank you so much! (Also, apologies for using Dan McClellan's username, I found him on TikTok and Twitter)
I've wondered this too. I love his podcasts. And he has said things to the effect of the Bible being spun from older polytheistic religions of the ancient near east. Here he openly states the book of Mormon is a product of the 19th century in this interview. He's a great scholar. But, it seems like that scholarship runs contrary to his personal belief consistently. From the interview, it seems like it is more of a sense of fitting into a community. I just don't understand how the intellectual piece comports for him.
I think some people, recognise the power of the narrative and like he says himself, the sense of direction. I think similary with Jordan Peterson, some people wish to keep the structure and symbolism as close to their daily life. So why leave... An athiest myself, but i can see the appeal
This is so interesting….coming from a fundamentalist background it seems that most ppl who join churches later in life don’t feel it necessary to their faith to believe things are literally true, as opposed to those raised in it who tend to believe in an all or nothing approach to the Bible
You might also be interested to know that the practice of “joining” a church is foreign to the Bible, as there’s not a single example in the Bible of someone “joining” the church.
That is so true. I joined Mormonism in Europe and going on a mission also in Europe I butted heads with companions from Utah or who were born in the religion the most. I think that was a major item on my shelf, it was creaking, that people actually believed that all the allegories and stories were true and not to be interpreted. They also believed the prophet today was at the same level with Jesus and whatever they said on a whim was set on concrete. I'm out now and happy and know I am enough and not less than
@@stviz87funny story, I served in Europe and one day my greenie (great guy) and I were just chatting as we knocked doors. I had recently lost a loved one and was pondering out loud on the location of the spirit world, whether it was maybe around us somehow. He produced some specific, obscure Brigham Young quote about exactly where the spirit world is, and it drove him nuts when I responded with, “yeah, I don’t know about that.” The McConkie era of Mormonism definitely instilled a dogmatic certainty that is slow to fade away.
@@aBrewster29 I think it is also rooted with "I know.." statements members are encouraged to do. I never felt ok using "i know" for spiritual things, especially when it was a subjective account like "I felt nice praying so I know Joseph Smith..." or "It gives me peace reading this book so I know Jesus..." To be honest nobody gives a donkeys butt if you use "I know" or "I believe" on the street to try to convince them to come to church. But it does breed this vocabulary that instills this belief that you have to be/sound certain otherwise you're a lazy and lax disciple
@@stviz87 oh, gosh, that is so true. My wife and I teach Sunday school, and I was trying to make that point from Romans 8 just two days ago, to illustrate the true nature of hope vs knowledge, and why hope is usually what we have and it’s ok. Anyway, they just couldn’t dial in until I fed them the words, “I’d like to bear my testimony, that…” and they all continued in unison “I know the church is true, and that…” Honestly it was a bit jarring, but that’s the default. Regardless of whether anyone believes in the church to whatever degree, it’s pretty easy to show that on paper the church espouses guidance of the Spirit. But in practice we don’t trust it to guide through uncertainty-we replace it with a false sense of certainty that more easily meshes with compliance.
About an hour in and fascinated. Was not familiar with Dan before this but have now subscribed to his channel. I'm fascinated by how many converts, especially men, I've known personally or heard on things like podcasts talk about how they instantly felt welcomed and a part of the community and they still have warm feelings for the LDS community, even if they've left. I'm a bit puzzled by this. I, who was born into the church, have never felt welcome or accepted, and have been hugely frustrated by the church my whole life, and I'm not alone in that. Few of the people I grew up with have remained in the church, especially the women. Of all the girls I grew up with, as far as I know, I'm the only one still in the church, and I'm rather hostilely in at this point. From the comments I'm gathering Dan is knowledgeable and analytical about the scriptures, so looking forward to the rest of this and his own podcasts. Interested in his perspective on staying active in light of multiple things. I've noticed in other interviews that men coming out of the church or contemplating leaving, or just questioning, seem to retain positive feelings for the LDS community more than their wives. So am interested to see Dan's take on this and how that fits. Love it when you have still active members on. I notice there are always some snarky comments about that but I find it interesting and helpful. There really is nowhere else to go if you're still in the church and want to actually discuss things in any sort of rational, analytical way beyond the usual cliches. I get tired of getting nearly stoned in Relief Society every time I open my mouth. I appreciate your being respectful to everyone, in or out of the church. Wish everyone on both sides was doing that. I also like that you let people tell their stories. That's a bit of a lost art any more. There's a lot more to conducting good interviews than people realize.
Not LDS, but was in active evangelistic groups in high school, college, and did a 2 year mission in my late 20s. One thing about finding the vulnerable: our group focused on college freshmen, especially international students, because of their isolation and separation from everything familiar. On the day the Challenger Shuttle exploded, our trainers told us to immediately engage everyone on campus, as the shock of the US’s space program failing would open people to hear the Good News. You know, used car salesman tactics.
Ive been an agnostic atheist since i had a chance to choose and ive never seen a more engaging interview. What Dan said about certain world views being a social construct and just being used to assert being a part of a group really resonated with me even outside of religious topics but did help me understand the thinking inside
I would be fascinated to hear what Dan would say in a second episode. I wasn't Mormon, but when I deconstructed my faith there wasn't really anything left for me, and the community didn't have anything for me either.
You grew up non-Mormon and trying to live in the moment. I grew up Mormon and constantly thought about my state before God and what I was supposed to do to join God in eternity. Now, as a post-Mormon adult, I struggle to live in the moment and focus on the now.
THIS is the interview that I've been waiting for, as a fan of Dan's work. Even so, I remain confused as to WHY he stays in the church. He doesn’t believe in the historicity of the BofM, doesn’t follow the doctrines and teachings of the leaders as if they speak for God, but has his own type of Mormonism that in no way resembles the actual church teachings. Further, he personally puts data over dogma, whereas the church is all about dogma over data. So, why, Dan? Why do you stay? For community?
Yeah I have the same question. Hoping I'll find out listening to these podcasts. Little bit annoyed that it's 3 parts that are over 4 hours each but that's Mormon stories
My fair guess is that when you are that deep into scholarship it would be pretty hard to express true faith in line with any particular denomination. So if you still broadly consider yourself a Christian or at least some faith in God why not participate in the manner that hurts your relationships the least. I left 4 years ago and every couple of months I hear something makes me go down the rabbit hole again to make sure I'm not crazy and putting my wife through hell for no reason. The lds faith is peculiar. It's definitely not the one true church but pieces of it can feel so reasonable in relation to broader Christianity.
Thank you for this interview. So many great insights (and yes, the Spiderverse films are the best!). I wanted to comment quickly that the emergency in the MTC story is unfortunately one of many examples where missionaries aren’t allowed to be seen when they should be. Certainly John knows of many. I served in Las Vegas West, and we were nervous to approach the mission president’s wife about medical needs. She was trying to rein in expenses (and was in charge of approving missionary medical visits…) and it felt like 99% of the time her response to medical complaints was to “drink more water.” I mean, I get it. It’s hot in Nevada, and dehydration is a big deal. BUT it was overused to a potentially dangerous extent, by someone with no medical training who was passing quick judgment over medical things. It became a sad joke among us, and missionaries felt unheard. We had to endure as best we could, sometimes relying on ward members for extra support. The worst was when one elder injured his arm and sought approval for treatment. The president’s wife thought it sounded minor (over a phone call…) and that there was no need to be seen. He was at a loss and knew something was very wrong, so he and his companion secretly sought out a doctor in their ward. Turns out, it was broken. :( In any case, these are our loved ones out there. I appreciated the story here because it adds to the foundational accounts beneath a glaring red flag.
I'm not sure the church can afford to pay medical bills for its volunteer sales associates. They presently only have between $100 and $250 billion in assets. Go easy on the poor mendicants.
John is the BEST interviewer. He asks questions of the interviewee that bring out a full picture, and an even deeper perspective on the subjects presented. It makes the discussion so personal and interesting…Thanks John.
Highly recommended. Break it up into segments since it is longer than most MSP's. I have heard other interviews with Dan. He has such a complex story that most other interviews leave out a lot of his story. Dan is a cautious interviewee and responses are measured. John does not push him in parts of the story where he is uncomfortable or which may "ruffle the feathers" of the LDS "powers that be". A very unique and unlikely journey.. This extended interview fills in a lot of gaps and makes Dan more three dimensional than in other interviews.
Great interview! When it first started, I thought it would be way over my head. But it wasn't. Listened to the whole interview in one sitting. Well, I wasn't sitting, but got lots of chores done while listening,
He's going to be in for a rude awakening when he gets excommunicated for his wild beliefs. He keeps repeating that he's "never been disavowed of them" but now that he's gaining traction as an online celebrity, he's placing himself square in the crosshairs.
Love this discussion on apologetics! To illustrate the irony or even hypocrisy in apologetics, it’s interesting to see how easily members accept the idea that Song of Solomon is not scripture but refuse to view even the great flood with any degree of nuance, such as allegory or a localized event. You see this pattern time and time again in the church (e.g. First Vision) where it locks in on one very specific interpretation of base facts that eventually comes into conflict with other doctrines or truth claims. And then these contradictions are explained away using “so you’re saying there’s a chance” apologetics or “get out of jail free card” doctrines like “God will make it all right on the other side.” Anywhere uncertainty exists there is a place for apologetics, but it can’t be to have an open mind to only one possibility-an open mind inherently welcomes a multitude of possibilities, so in apologetics you still have to be humble that an idea might be false or at least in need of fine tuning.
Dan, thank you for doing this interview. I am a true layman who has read and studied the scriptures in my own way. The things you have shared align with many of the things I’ve learned. This is actually has been a faith promoting discussion. Again thank you for this conversation
I’m from Langley, BC where Trinity western university is located, and as an active member, had a great friend who attended TWU in biblical studies. Even as a believer, he was disenchanted that LDS schools didn’t have a serious biblical scholar program at BYU. It was so cool, at the time, to have someone at the church attend this evangelical school. I really respected this guy. As EQ president I called him as a councillor. Loved his input on all things Bible when we had quaram meetings. I wonder if you know him (he would have been class of somewhere around 2012?). No full names given, but Mormons at TWU must have been a novelty. Justin S. was his name. Great guy. Curiosity comment I guess.
I have thoroughly enjoyed watching him and learning from him in TikTok! I didn't realize he was LDS, let alone an active member. I left the church in June 2020 in the midst of the George Floyd anguish. I'll dig into this in the morning 🌞
Dan, you are an incredible human. I am so grateful for your work! Also, I'm so glad tou explained why your wife didn't enjoy your time at Oxford because I've heard you say this before and wondered why. I can relate because we left all our friends and family for my husband to go to school at BYUH and we were poor. I was stuck in our old studio apartment with our first baby miles away from the school. It's one of the hardest times I experienced because I felt trapped and isolated. I ended up going to school later and we moved on campus so it turned into an amazing experience, but yeah, I hope your wife has been able to go visit and enjoy England!
I remember being in Brazil and the missionaries speaking a great Portuguese. For two times I almost converted. My mother and aunt prevented me and my sister from doing so, because we were Baptist. Mormonism fascinaste me. I don’t believe JS had any vision, dream or any religion experience. But the story of Mormonism is what I like, them living to the west, the struggles to settle. Even if there is no real religion, people were very resilient. But I also recognize the devastation and the consequences of this religion beliefs. Many red flags that we are not eve to see it.
Mormonism teaches infinite Gods and Jesus was just a man and you can become Jesus of another planet as well. This is satanical. The story is a easily proven lie. Don't play with the deadly snake.
This guy is awesome! I still can’t help but wonder why he remains an active member knowing what he knows. Unless it’s all about community for him. He’s got an amazing mind and I am so impressed by his knowledge and also demeanor
Even if it is all about community, I don't know how you could intellectually believe it's all built on lies, but still participate in it. Seems really painful tbh.
This is great! I love Dan's stuff! He is a level-headed, scholarly, and well-informed/educated scholar. I also kind of thought he was a member of the LDS or former.
Excellent epi. One of the very best. Also the first time I’ve ever heard John ask a single question I thought was a bit uninformed. That isn’t an indictment of John but rather admiration that in the hundreds and hundreds of hours I’ve listened to I’ve never heard him ask anything but excellent questions! I find I disagree with Dan about what faith is. He has prompted me to return to the Bible to see how it is defined. I think of faith as a belief in something that can’t be proven or disproven. Not as a way for a person to accept things against which there is strong contrafactual data. ‘Jesus is my Saviour’ is a statement in the realm of faith that is very hard to prove or disprove. But ‘the Book of Mormon is an ancient record of the Semitic inhabitants of the americas’ is not. That is one of my main issues with the LDS church. It asks people to have faith in things already proven false.
@@racealexander1660 The Charles Anthon narrative as the church has presented it for years is debunked. The witness of the 8 and the 3 is riddled with issues which the LDS church has long mischaracterised. The ‘emperor’s-new-clothes’ approach to the ancient record kept in a box and unseen by all except a few unreliable witnesses during a semi-spiritual, ethereal vision, remembered and recounted inconsistently is a mere gossamer thread by which to hang the BoM’s credibility. Even without all that, the text in se is replete with errata (such as translation errors unique to the edition of the Bible in Joseph’s possession) that invalidate it, and the world’s ‘most correct book’ has been heavily edited, including having some of its core doctrines changed. The original text of the BoM had about 269,000 words. If the plates had any fewer words on each one than the modern book edition, you would need well over 600 sheets of metal. I believe 200 words is the highest number ever found on an inscription written on metal. And saying the ancients used metal plate books because there examples of metal inscriptions is like saying we write books on sandwich boards. Joseph describes the plates as 6 by 8 inches long and 6 inches thick. Others described them as even smaller. It just doesn’t add up. Why did this trickster god set things up this way? A record of an unknown people in an unknown language on a non-existent medium retrieved by magical folkloric tradition translated by occult means as the instrument to restore the fullness of truth. It doesn’t make much sense. Why would God choose such unwieldy instruments to restore the gospel fullness: An egg shaped piece of jasper in a hat, a pair of spectacles, a racist narrative, an abhorrent marital institution, an unknown language, a unique set of records that vanished without a trace. God indeed works in a mysterious way.
I came to celebrate Dan’s scholarship and learn more about his background. Instead I was enthralled hearing him discuss attempting to vindicate marginalized communities. Loved that so much-I truly hope more people start seeing that important lesson inside of the Church. And then you went and mentioned Thom Wayment. He is a dear man and a wonderful scholar. I am still proud, to this day as a post-Mormon, that I worked for Thom. Couldn’t agree more with Dan that they share a commitment to data.
I knew I loved for a reason and that is your unbiased search for truth and facts and I'm thankful for capacities for education and then your gift for educating others with the truth 🙌 so glad that I stumbled upon you and TY!
Love the trailer. Your work is the same compassion and love I’d imagine Christ to have. Love Dan. I’ve learned a lot from him and absolutely love what he’s doing.
Great interview. In the second half Dan makes me wince a little each time he talks about faith being used to overide contradictory evidence. I don't think that's how faith works or what it's for. Faith says "with your eyes open, accept the truth of these things for which there is no visible/tangible evidence" ... which is a whole different project from saying "shut your eyes, and accept the truth of these things which are contradicted by visible/tangible evidence." Folks going around with their eyes open might make mistakes, but at least they can say they are honestly looking for what is true ... folks going around with their eyes shut, not so much.
"Tell me all your thoughts on god, 'cause I really want to meet her..." is a line from Dishwalla's "Counting Blue Cars". Scot Alexander, the bassist, is an active LDS Member. The former lead singer and songwriter, JR Richards, is not.
3:17:14 There are two reasons in my mind why the church can't separate itself from the KJV. First is mostly what Dan said at this time stamp. The real issue that didn't get stated here is that the church considers the BoM to have been translated line-by-line from the seer stone, so to change it would be to upstage what God has divinely approved to be as the best words to use for its "translation". And if fallible men believe they can change what was divinely approved scripture, that essentially means these men believe they have more authority than god, which would indicate to the believers that the leadership has become corrupt and is leading the church astray. The other problem is the fact that Joseph Smith made divinely approved changes to the KJV specifically. So if some other version of the bible has a different context for a passage or section of scripture preceding or following a passage revised by Joseph Smith, then the JST passage isn't going to make sense within that version of the bible. Not to mention that a different version may have an entirely different meaning for a passage that was revised by J.S. So the church is stuck with it. The whole point of modern day scripture is to being back "plain and precious truths" that were lost during the great apostasy. And if these modern day scriptures themselves need to be changed to fit a different version of the bible (Like the Isaiah chapters in 2 Nephi or Jesus' words in 3 Nephi visiting the Americas) then it defeats that whole purpose of having modern day scripture in the latter days.
I haven’t finished the interview yet but wow and Dan‘s testimony and story is just simply amazing. Even though I personally disagree with many of his conclusions and viewpoints. Dan always struck me as the type of kid who was striving for top of his class straight A’s in every single course, Academic type of kid but he I was actually the complete opposite of that.😊
Loved the interview and really appreciate Dan’s honesty and his work. I would ask Dan…….. “Then what is the value of a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator if they can get things wrong? When do we know when to follow and when to disagree if they have gotten really big issues very wrong and hurt people because of the power and authority they have over members?”
Stick with the big picture. If they couldn't get anything wrong, then they wouldn't be mortal. They would be Jesus. Moses got stuff wrong, Peter, etc. But they didn't get the big picture doctrine wrong. The people who discounted Moses because of his weakness didn't look at the brass serpent and refused to be healed. Those who leave modern day prophets are refusing the true healing of the atonement as well.
Throughout history, the concept of God has evolved in tandem with cultural, environmental, and societal changes. Joseph Smith's portrayal of an anthropomorphic God, with marital ties reminiscent of early Old Testament interpretations, may have inadvertently aligned with certain elements of biblical scholarship. However, his later depictions of God appeared to be more influenced by his personal beliefs and lifestyle and or a reflection of his own ego. Gods often mirror the needs and concerns of their era: agrarian societies had deities focused on agriculture, while hunter-gatherer tribes venerated gods associated with warfare. The term "Lord of Hosts," for example, can be translated as the god of war or armies. As humans rose in prominence and their fears shifted from animals to other humans, deities transitioned from animalistic figures to human-like entities or demigods. Admittedly, this is a simplified overview, but given the constraints of a TH-cam comment, brevity is essential. Most may not even read this entire comment! 😴 lol
Thank you for sharing your story Dan and John for the interview. Dan's honesty, character, humility, profound understanding of the subject matters and communication skills - (eloquent) was spot-on!. I've learned and will apply these new found words, ideas, language and understandings into my daily life. Waiting patiently for Part 2. Blessings
Great interview! He and Patrick Mason can make positive changes in this orthodoxy of the LDS faith! Mason’s life seemed one of living through rose colored glasses but Dan has experienced life! 🤣🤣
I can’t even listen to this guy. He’s said he’s poor now at least 10 times but they could afford ti eat fried chicken every night? They had a gaming system, his parents had money to put him in sports. He had a CAR in high school?! Omg this guy does not know what poor is. Also- anyone that feels bad about him saying he’s poor cause they lived in apartments- my apartment is $5,200 a month here in LA. Don’t feel bad to rent. This guy has no gauge on what makes people rich or poor, idk why he so desperately wants to make that part of his storyline
I wanted to throw up in my yard, after hearing the utter nonsense and false doctrine presented in the interview.Dan reminds me of Scar in the Lion King,whose rise to fame ended poorly.Also, if you read about the foolish darkness that comes out of Korihor's mouth in the Book of Mormon, and compare it to the stuff voiced by Dan McClellan, you will find they match perfectly.
So many good comments in this that would be perfect for your TH-cam shorts content. First one was when he explained why the king James version of the Bible isn't necessarily superior and then also when he explained how the Bible doesn't necessarily condemn homosexuality itself, but that it's just about social politics and what fits with what is accepted just like how the Bible has instances of supporting slavery but we have decided to reject that in modern society. Very strong points and very easy to understand
Very informative. I like how breaks things down and try’s to get at the truth. Love it!! The only criticism I have is the comment about food stamps. I understand the context of what he was talking about was just responding to criticisms about him being on food stamps but it made it seem like there was something wrong with that. Lots of people require or need additional help to get on their feet. The comment made it seem like Ugg I’m not one of those people like I’m better than that. I know it wasn’t his intent but it should have been addressed.
It's impressive how Dan is able to maintain his standing as a critical scholar within the LDS Church. In contrast, in the Jehovah's Witness organization, I found that pursuing higher education was strongly discouraged due to the fear of independent critical thinking. Despite having left the organization in 1994, I still encounter difficulty engaging in open and intellectusl conversations about the "organization" with current Jehovah's Witnesses in person. While online discussions with unfamiliar Jehovah's Witnesses can happen, they often become dogmatic, confrontational, and unproductive, which can be quite exhausting.
I've never felt so connected to someone else's experience. I've never understood the constant, false dichotomy coming from both sides for how to believe. It also has surprised me how often people feel that the church is a monoculture that can't have a diversity of thought.
Wating from Norway, but starting to get late, might catch up later. I love how the net bring together really thoughtful content making the information flow and insight quadruple. What took years and years before can now happen in moths. What a wonderful time to be curious in!
OMG!! I remember, I was born and raised in Charles town W. Va. The commune was called Stonegate and a 2 year old child got paddled to death there. The woman was Dorothy McClellan who ran Stonegate. I guess you would have been very young at the time.
Dan McClellan been watching many of your videos. You are one of the best scholars if not the best I have heard of. Your honest research is so hard to find almost everyone has bias and bias shows greatly in their work. You just seem to go where the facts lead you. I watched all five hours of this as well. I guess you stay active LDS because there is no true Church on this earth so why not?
I loved this interview. I just didn’t like the last part where he’s trying to compare who has had a bigger impact Dan or Bart Erhman? It’s like…does it matter? Just let it go.
I finally get why people often want Dan to explain his reconciliation between his faith and his scholarship. It’s because they want to do the same thing. They see Dan (a biblical scholar) still strong in his faith and they want to know how with all the information available to them they can still have a Christian relationship with God. I wonder if that’s something that Dan would be interested in helping people with?
Or perhaps people are wanting to know how with all the information available to him, how he can still support a high-control group that he recognizes has done and continues to do harm?
I managed to be a devout Mormon for 35 years starting in '74. I was never taught anything against evolution. I even told someone recently that Mormons believed in evolution AND the Bible. I never saw a problem. It does strike me though, that in popular Christianity, belief in evolution has become something of an acid test used to pass judgment. My impression is that the church has tried too hard to fit in with popular Christianity. ...and a separate thought... I used several science text books in college ('78-80) that included a mention of God in the introduction: something to the same affect, that it can be both. I don't think God and religion can work if you're not wiling to embrace a bit of mystery. Isn't that the best part?
If we are to accept that Mormon prophets are fallible, then they need to clearly indicate when they are speaking as a man. That isn't our responsibility. Modern prophets also need to go over every utterance of past prophets and indicate which utterances are inspired and which are not. This is their responsibility to their followers.
I felt a deep and honest connection with Dan while watching this. He just seems like such a genuine person. I’m still puzzled by his continuing participation in the institution. Data over dogma is like the antithesis of the institutional church, at least from my experience.
@maklelan Thanks for sharing your story! I love your work and was pleasantly surprised to hear your mention of Dallas. I lived at that same famous apartment intersection around the same time, worked at the Galleria and used to attend PBC.
This is actually a new form of apologetics, replacing the old one that tells you: Forget the facts, ignore the changes of opinion by so-called prophets, and just trust that we're right somehow anyway. This one is still saying suspend your disbelief and be a Mormon, but feel free to study contradictory data and wait for the church to catch up.
I guess the “warts and all” don’t look so ugly to someone who wasn’t abused personally by said warts, I don’t really understand but I’ll be the first to admit the topic of institutionalize religion is emotionally charged for me to the point that I sometimes struggle to remember the good things people experience while part of a religious community. I hope in the future I can let go of the things church leaders said to me to the point that I can also accept that those things probably came from a very flawed, human place. Likely more motivated by protecting their own insecurities around our religious practices rather than seeing the spark of Satan in my soul…. The amount of discomfort I feel while watching this video seems like a good indication that my world view is about to undergo some growth so really looking forward to listening to the next episodes!
Just FYI, when I say in the interview that someone isn’t necessarily “irrational” for believing the BoM is historical, I had “delusional” in my head, but “irrational” came out. I don’t think I’d stand by saying someone isn’t being irrational (everyone is irrational about things from time to time), but I’d stand by saying they aren’t being delusional.
Yes I agree with this. Religious belief may at many times be irrational, but that doesn’t make it bad. In our culture today we are very concerned about everything being rational, but a belief doesn’t have to be rational to be valid or fulfilling. Many of us, even those who are not religious, hold beliefs that are irrational at face value but serve a deeper purpose in our lives.
It's literally a delusion. I appreciate your academic talk but why the denial that it's a delusion?
@maklelan Dan I enjoy your biblical subject critiques, and your manner in doing them, but am confused by your "irrationality" when it comes to belief in the Book of Mormon.
Yes, you say "everyone is irrational about things from time to time", it seems to me that you are rational in your approach to the bible, but not towards the BoM, and accept this as reasonable?
I'm not searching for an argument, and genuinely want to understand where you are coming from, as it simply doesn't make sense to me (as an atheist).
If you do reply, my only further comment will be "thankyou".
Regards.
Edit: I have only skimmed this video, and came here after searching about you.
Dan, I love the way you apporach things, I think that looking at things how they truely are, leaving behind the need to merely prove someones own dogma, and yet still accept that some thing can and still are true though they may not always be perfectly definable, is a healthy way to approach things... Your appoach is very refreshing and actually a great reliefe to many topics I pondered about for many years, for I always had the impression that the God of the Old testament is so inconsistent, unreliable, contradictive and at times even evil, at least the way he is presented, but never really found a well founded, scientific and yet also mature spiritual apporach of it.. Not seeing that, has bothered me, now seeing it does happen, is awesome, and I even think a great way in a very healthy direction for all of us..
So keep it going
@SimonDaumMusic Totally agree, and well put.
As someone who's now a post mormon married to a prog-mo where we both were tbms when we married - Dan's work has brought so much healing to me. To know that I'm not crazy for seeing inconsistencies and being bothered by them
But this interview in particular brought another layer of healing in being able to accept the faith that others have, where before I just couldn't not look down on them.
"If they actually accept the Bible's definition of faith, then they should be happy to believe despite the data" is excellent framing that softened my heart
From an active Latter-day Saint, I'm grateful you've found healing. People will believe what they have deeply personal reasons to believe regardless of how it aligns with the deeply personal experiences of others, and the more love and soft hearts we can have for each other in all of this the better.
Dan’s the best. I am in a mixed-faith marriage, and we disagree on how to raise the kids. Once during an argument, I realized that although I hate the institutional LDS church, if my kids grew up to be like Dan, I’d have no complaints. None. He calls out toxic doctrines and practices, and he knows the history problems and doesn’t attempt apologetics… he goes in with his eyes open and takes the good and rejects the bad. And he’s done so his entire lifecycle that I’ve known him. Knowing him has given me peace, and that peace gave me space to be able to heal in many ways. What’s more Christlike than handing out peace, protecting marginalized communities, calling out religious hypocrisy, and healing people’s damaged souls?
Are you not afraid your kids will grow up to believe they can become Gods? This is the same lie satan told adam and eve that if they ate of the apple they would be like the most high. This is not the God of the bible.
The best!? Still believes all the bullshit of the so called religion. Invented. Plagiarised. Mumbo jumbo rubbish! And not to mention all the damage that the invented religion has done. And i include all religions. But the Mormons are the worst. Treating woman as inferior. Black peoples are banned, for being evil. And then all of a sudden, they are okay. Deluded. Delusional. God talks to the bishops. What a load of rubbish!
he wasnt raised Mormon tho
How would you rate the damages done with the ‘ purity culture ‘ , the guilt , etc ?
He wasn't raised Mormon, fully admits he this escaped harmful teaching aimed at youth, and is a white educated male. Don't get me wrong, I greatly admire Dan & am a patreon supporter even. Its just that his example shows that being raised out of the church avoided a lot of trauma and can be healthier IMO.
The best thing about Dan is that when you watch his videos you really don't know what his beliefs are. He's like a biblical detective. Just the facts.
He isn't very good at what he does....when you fact check him i watched a number of his video's and he missed so much information and some of this information is available through the LDS church so I mean he doesn't utilize what's available he just makes crazy claims
@@jimmynolet3752 Yeah right. He's as thorough a scholar there is. If he says one thing and the LDS church says another, you know they're lying.
So when you say facts, he's okay with all the untruths, lying, manipulation and harm the church causes?
@@torreyintahoe I am NOT a Mormon, I can prove this guy a liar, and the LDS church is a liar. However the LDS Church does publish information unaltered. They just deny the evidence.
I'll join the chorus in expressing my appreciation of a terrific interview. I'm an ex-Lutheran (Missouri Synod) who deconverted in my teens for intellectual reasons but found it difficult emotionally, so I can understand why thoughtful Mormons might choose to remain in the church. If I were a betting man, I would predict that Dan will eventually leave the church when the cognitive dissonance becomes too great, but I completely understand why this might not ever happen, or why it may take a long time until it does happen.
Incidentally, here's one of the things that contributed to my own apostasy: A very smart Mormon kid moved into my neighborhood. We bonded over a shared love of debate, and one of our topics, naturally enough, was religion. I argued in favor of my Lutheranism, and he in favor of LDS doctrine, and a turning point for me was when I realized that the arguments I was presenting against his faith could, with a few tweaks, be deployed with equal effect against my own. That gave me pause, and it helped to instill in me a habit of questioning my own beliefs with the same vigor that I would apply to others'. That habit has served me very well.
Dan is my favorite scholar. I’ve left the church and honestly don’t judge why he stays in it/ but he has helped me navigate so much of religion in general since leaving the church and finding peace in deconstructing without fear or shame. Also two children who are gay/ and I love he supports that it undeniably
What's incredible to me is, religions don't have to patriarchal, and once they've unlocked that level, they can go to the other many areas, like being queerphobic, racist, sexist, etc.
Dan s a false teacher, he reminds me of the falsehoods taught by Korihor in the Book of Mormon.Almost exactly word for word.I wanted to throw up after watching two agnostics, make light of the Restoration and my Savior's sacrifice for me.
We've all been waiting for this podcast for 2 years and it did not disappoint one bit, thanks to John's amazing interview skills to probe out the right questions at the right time and for Dan's ability to respond clearly and directly. Bravo to both of you in coming together to enhance all of us whose lives are intertwined in Mormonism.
So glad you enjoyed it!
You are an AMAZING conversationalist & interviewer!!! I love when hosts LET THEIR GUESTS SPEAK & HELP them flesh out their insight, rather than interrupt with something they’ve already said in 5 other videos 😂. This was EPIC. Thank you 🙏🏼
Love Dan! His honesty and thoughtful scholarship is a breath of fresh air. Thank you John for this amazing interview. 💗
Our pleasure!
John is such a concrete thinker! Repeatedly, "Was there a specific scripture passage that you wanted to understand, that made you want to spend years studying and enter a career around ancient languages and cultures?" 😂
Really appreciated this interview. I've been following Dan on the clock app for a long time now, and I'm impressed at how diverse his audience is--Mormons, Catholic and Protestant Christians, Jews, and more. And I appreciated that you interviewed an active member. You've often said that your goal is not to attack the LDS Church but to inform consent, and this is a good example.
Whoah!
As a member my entire life (54 yrs), this guy is blowing my mind. I was definitely taught evolution was not a viable option to explain the origins of man; the prophet was the mouth piece of God and was not questions; all the scriptures were literal and historic; your leaders knew best; homosexuals were not following the plan of creation; polygamy was going to be a system of relationships in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (because there would be more woman then men there; ……all the dogma and more.
He had missionaries tell him the prophet was only a prophet as long as he was acting like one and was NOT always correct?! Man, he experienced a different church than myself. 🤯
It’s my new life’s goal to be able to contemplate, research, and discuss scripture with the same fascination yet emotional detachment that Dan has. He’s kind of turning scripture from something I talk exclusively with my therapist about to something I want to make the theme of next month’s trivia night
what's 'trivia month'?
as and LDS pimo status I've grown a fascination with the bible in it's scholarly context. This has helped me immensely due to having trouble shifting the way I saw myself and the world.
I'm so happy to hear that Maklelan and David Bokovoy know each other. David Bokovoy was a huge influence in my life (as my seminary teacher) while I was in the church and Maklelan is a huge influence in my life while deconstructing mormonism.
I'm so happy you interviewed them both! Thank you so much!
(Also, apologies for using Dan McClellan's username, I found him on TikTok and Twitter)
So thankful to Dan and John for pulling this interview off. Absolutely fascinating.
Been following Dan on Insta for a while now and super surprised he's still Mormon. Would love to know his reasoning on why he stays.
I've wondered this too. I love his podcasts. And he has said things to the effect of the Bible being spun from older polytheistic religions of the ancient near east. Here he openly states the book of Mormon is a product of the 19th century in this interview.
He's a great scholar. But, it seems like that scholarship runs contrary to his personal belief consistently. From the interview, it seems like it is more of a sense of fitting into a community. I just don't understand how the intellectual piece comports for him.
I think some people, recognise the power of the narrative and like he says himself, the sense of direction. I think similary with Jordan Peterson, some people wish to keep the structure and symbolism as close to their daily life. So why leave...
An athiest myself, but i can see the appeal
Check out part 3.
Dude this interview is FASCINATING. I love learning about the history of the bible!
This is so interesting….coming from a fundamentalist background it seems that most ppl who join churches later in life don’t feel it necessary to their faith to believe things are literally true, as opposed to those raised in it who tend to believe in an all or nothing approach to the Bible
You might also be interested to know that the practice of “joining” a church is foreign to the Bible, as there’s not a single example in the Bible of someone “joining” the church.
That is so true. I joined Mormonism in Europe and going on a mission also in Europe I butted heads with companions from Utah or who were born in the religion the most. I think that was a major item on my shelf, it was creaking, that people actually believed that all the allegories and stories were true and not to be interpreted. They also believed the prophet today was at the same level with Jesus and whatever they said on a whim was set on concrete. I'm out now and happy and know I am enough and not less than
@@stviz87funny story, I served in Europe and one day my greenie (great guy) and I were just chatting as we knocked doors. I had recently lost a loved one and was pondering out loud on the location of the spirit world, whether it was maybe around us somehow. He produced some specific, obscure Brigham Young quote about exactly where the spirit world is, and it drove him nuts when I responded with, “yeah, I don’t know about that.”
The McConkie era of Mormonism definitely instilled a dogmatic certainty that is slow to fade away.
@@aBrewster29 I think it is also rooted with "I know.." statements members are encouraged to do. I never felt ok using "i know" for spiritual things, especially when it was a subjective account like "I felt nice praying so I know Joseph Smith..." or "It gives me peace reading this book so I know Jesus..."
To be honest nobody gives a donkeys butt if you use "I know" or "I believe" on the street to try to convince them to come to church. But it does breed this vocabulary that instills this belief that you have to be/sound certain otherwise you're a lazy and lax disciple
@@stviz87 oh, gosh, that is so true. My wife and I teach Sunday school, and I was trying to make that point from Romans 8 just two days ago, to illustrate the true nature of hope vs knowledge, and why hope is usually what we have and it’s ok.
Anyway, they just couldn’t dial in until I fed them the words, “I’d like to bear my testimony, that…” and they all continued in unison “I know the church is true, and that…”
Honestly it was a bit jarring, but that’s the default. Regardless of whether anyone believes in the church to whatever degree, it’s pretty easy to show that on paper the church espouses guidance of the Spirit. But in practice we don’t trust it to guide through uncertainty-we replace it with a false sense of certainty that more easily meshes with compliance.
About an hour in and fascinated. Was not familiar with Dan before this but have now subscribed to his channel.
I'm fascinated by how many converts, especially men, I've known personally or heard on things like podcasts talk about how they instantly felt welcomed and a part of the community and they still have warm feelings for the LDS community, even if they've left. I'm a bit puzzled by this. I, who was born into the church, have never felt welcome or accepted, and have been hugely frustrated by the church my whole life, and I'm not alone in that. Few of the people I grew up with have remained in the church, especially the women. Of all the girls I grew up with, as far as I know, I'm the only one still in the church, and I'm rather hostilely in at this point.
From the comments I'm gathering Dan is knowledgeable and analytical about the scriptures, so looking forward to the rest of this and his own podcasts. Interested in his perspective on staying active in light of multiple things. I've noticed in other interviews that men coming out of the church or contemplating leaving, or just questioning, seem to retain positive feelings for the LDS community more than their wives. So am interested to see Dan's take on this and how that fits.
Love it when you have still active members on. I notice there are always some snarky comments about that but I find it interesting and helpful. There really is nowhere else to go if you're still in the church and want to actually discuss things in any sort of rational, analytical way beyond the usual cliches. I get tired of getting nearly stoned in Relief Society every time I open my mouth. I appreciate your being respectful to everyone, in or out of the church. Wish everyone on both sides was doing that. I also like that you let people tell their stories. That's a bit of a lost art any more. There's a lot more to conducting good interviews than people realize.
Curious why in a lifetime in the church you've never felt welcomed or accepted.
What a valuable contribution to the body of Mormon Culture and History. Looking forward to the next episodes.
Not LDS, but was in active evangelistic groups in high school, college, and did a 2 year mission in my late 20s. One thing about finding the vulnerable: our group focused on college freshmen, especially international students, because of their isolation and separation from everything familiar. On the day the Challenger Shuttle exploded, our trainers told us to immediately engage everyone on campus, as the shock of the US’s space program failing would open people to hear the Good News. You know, used car salesman tactics.
Ive been an agnostic atheist since i had a chance to choose and ive never seen a more engaging interview. What Dan said about certain world views being a social construct and just being used to assert being a part of a group really resonated with me even outside of religious topics but did help me understand the thinking inside
“I had a competent education” bro is not holding back! 😂 that was straight up savage 💀 💯
I thought it was funny, because he didn’t had grade to get to college. Very bold.
@@laurenmay2098 *he didn’t have good grades to get…
@@sinisterhug1394 lol, thanks!
I would be fascinated to hear what Dan would say in a second episode. I wasn't Mormon, but when I deconstructed my faith there wasn't really anything left for me, and the community didn't have anything for me either.
Part 1… 5 hours long. Strap in everyone, we’re in for a banger!
I love Dan's insights. And if he's still a Mormon, he's a human who is dealing with the emotional, family, and related issues that come with change.
Dan sounds like the anti Christ named Korihor in the Book of Mormon.Korihor's life did not turn out well.
Happy to hear Dan stay true to Data over Dogma, i.e. intellectual honesty.
I love this - like, not just “Bible probably not literally true” but actually giving historical context. Thank you!
Dan has become one of my favorite Biblical scholarship communicators. Excited for this interview and all its parts!
Brilliant 💫
You grew up non-Mormon and trying to live in the moment. I grew up Mormon and constantly thought about my state before God and what I was supposed to do to join God in eternity. Now, as a post-Mormon adult, I struggle to live in the moment and focus on the now.
THIS is the interview that I've been waiting for, as a fan of Dan's work. Even so, I remain confused as to WHY he stays in the church. He doesn’t believe in the historicity of the BofM, doesn’t follow the doctrines and teachings of the leaders as if they speak for God, but has his own type of Mormonism that in no way resembles the actual church teachings. Further, he personally puts data over dogma, whereas the church is all about dogma over data. So, why, Dan? Why do you stay? For community?
Because he'd lose his family
Yeah I have the same question. Hoping I'll find out listening to these podcasts. Little bit annoyed that it's 3 parts that are over 4 hours each but that's Mormon stories
@@bigtombowskiis that what he said or is that just your guess
@@Will-xf3qe it's entirely my personal assumption
My fair guess is that when you are that deep into scholarship it would be pretty hard to express true faith in line with any particular denomination. So if you still broadly consider yourself a Christian or at least some faith in God why not participate in the manner that hurts your relationships the least.
I left 4 years ago and every couple of months I hear something makes me go down the rabbit hole again to make sure I'm not crazy and putting my wife through hell for no reason. The lds faith is peculiar. It's definitely not the one true church but pieces of it can feel so reasonable in relation to broader Christianity.
I love this. Dan has been such an important part of my current deconstruction and faith Journey.
Dan's is the sort of honesty and forthrightness that I expected at BYU as a student but did not find.
Thank you for this interview. So many great insights (and yes, the Spiderverse films are the best!). I wanted to comment quickly that the emergency in the MTC story is unfortunately one of many examples where missionaries aren’t allowed to be seen when they should be. Certainly John knows of many.
I served in Las Vegas West, and we were nervous to approach the mission president’s wife about medical needs. She was trying to rein in expenses (and was in charge of approving missionary medical visits…) and it felt like 99% of the time her response to medical complaints was to “drink more water.” I mean, I get it. It’s hot in Nevada, and dehydration is a big deal. BUT it was overused to a potentially dangerous extent, by someone with no medical training who was passing quick judgment over medical things. It became a sad joke among us, and missionaries felt unheard. We had to endure as best we could, sometimes relying on ward members for extra support. The worst was when one elder injured his arm and sought approval for treatment. The president’s wife thought it sounded minor (over a phone call…) and that there was no need to be seen. He was at a loss and knew something was very wrong, so he and his companion secretly sought out a doctor in their ward. Turns out, it was broken. :(
In any case, these are our loved ones out there. I appreciated the story here because it adds to the foundational accounts beneath a glaring red flag.
I'm not sure the church can afford to pay medical bills for its volunteer sales associates. They presently only have between $100 and $250 billion in assets. Go easy on the poor mendicants.
John is the BEST interviewer. He asks questions of the interviewee that bring out a full picture, and an even deeper perspective on the subjects presented. It makes the discussion so personal and interesting…Thanks John.
Ooh! Dan McClellan!?! Two (three? Data over Dogma anyone?) of my favorite YT channels coming together! Looking forward to this!
Highly recommended. Break it up into segments since it is longer than most MSP's. I have heard other interviews with Dan. He has such a complex story that most other interviews leave out a lot of his story. Dan is a cautious interviewee and responses are measured. John does not push him in parts of the story where he is uncomfortable or which may "ruffle the feathers" of the LDS "powers that be". A very unique and unlikely journey.. This extended interview fills in a lot of gaps and makes Dan more three dimensional than in other interviews.
Great interview! When it first started, I thought it would be way over my head. But it wasn't. Listened to the whole interview in one sitting. Well, I wasn't sitting, but got lots of chores done while listening,
Glad you enjoyed it!
He's going to be in for a rude awakening when he gets excommunicated for his wild beliefs. He keeps repeating that he's "never been disavowed of them" but now that he's gaining traction as an online celebrity, he's placing himself square in the crosshairs.
It took me 6 commutes to get through this episode and I’m so glad I did.
Love this discussion on apologetics! To illustrate the irony or even hypocrisy in apologetics, it’s interesting to see how easily members accept the idea that Song of Solomon is not scripture but refuse to view even the great flood with any degree of nuance, such as allegory or a localized event. You see this pattern time and time again in the church (e.g. First Vision) where it locks in on one very specific interpretation of base facts that eventually comes into conflict with other doctrines or truth claims. And then these contradictions are explained away using “so you’re saying there’s a chance” apologetics or “get out of jail free card” doctrines like “God will make it all right on the other side.”
Anywhere uncertainty exists there is a place for apologetics, but it can’t be to have an open mind to only one possibility-an open mind inherently welcomes a multitude of possibilities, so in apologetics you still have to be humble that an idea might be false or at least in need of fine tuning.
Interesting that Dan did his PhD at Exeter under Francesca Stavrakopoulou! She’s a theologian but an outspoken atheist.
I can't put this podcast down. I'm even listening to it walking through Harmons. LOL
The podcast is utter trash, full of false doctrine, promoted by those who delight in casting dirt upon things sacred to me and millions of others.
Dan, thank you for doing this interview. I am a true layman who has read and studied the scriptures in my own way. The things you have shared align with many of the things I’ve learned. This is actually has been a faith promoting discussion. Again thank you for this conversation
I’m from Langley, BC where Trinity western university is located, and as an active member, had a great friend who attended TWU in biblical studies. Even as a believer, he was disenchanted that LDS schools didn’t have a serious biblical scholar program at BYU. It was so cool, at the time, to have someone at the church attend this evangelical school. I really respected this guy. As EQ president I called him as a councillor. Loved his input on all things Bible when we had quaram meetings. I wonder if you know him (he would have been class of somewhere around 2012?). No full names given, but Mormons at TWU must have been a novelty. Justin S. was his name. Great guy. Curiosity comment I guess.
I have thoroughly enjoyed watching him and learning from him in TikTok! I didn't realize he was LDS, let alone an active member. I left the church in June 2020 in the midst of the George Floyd anguish. I'll dig into this in the morning 🌞
Dan, you are an incredible human. I am so grateful for your work! Also, I'm so glad tou explained why your wife didn't enjoy your time at Oxford because I've heard you say this before and wondered why. I can relate because we left all our friends and family for my husband to go to school at BYUH and we were poor. I was stuck in our old studio apartment with our first baby miles away from the school. It's one of the hardest times I experienced because I felt trapped and isolated. I ended up going to school later and we moved on campus so it turned into an amazing experience, but yeah, I hope your wife has been able to go visit and enjoy England!
I remember being in Brazil and the missionaries speaking a great Portuguese. For two times I almost converted. My mother and aunt prevented me and my sister from doing so, because we were Baptist. Mormonism fascinaste me. I don’t believe JS had any vision, dream or any religion experience. But the story of Mormonism is what I like, them living to the west, the struggles to settle. Even if there is no real religion, people were very resilient. But I also recognize the devastation and the consequences of this religion beliefs. Many red flags that we are not eve to see it.
Mormonism teaches infinite Gods and Jesus was just a man and you can become Jesus of another planet as well. This is satanical. The story is a easily proven lie. Don't play with the deadly snake.
For every 'red flag' there are about a thousand positive cases of people's lives being saved and improved. Watch the 'come back' podcast.
I watched/listened to the entire video. It was fascinating and I loved it! Thank you,
This guy is awesome! I still can’t help but wonder why he remains an active member knowing what he knows. Unless it’s all about community for him. He’s got an amazing mind and I am so impressed by his knowledge and also demeanor
Even if it is all about community, I don't know how you could intellectually believe it's all built on lies, but still participate in it. Seems really painful tbh.
Why can't someone intelligent remain an active member? What if there's more positive evidence than negative? What if they've had spiritual witnesses?
@@racealexander1660You will know after listening to part 2.
@charlesmendeley9823 The question still remains. So are no active members "intelligent"? That's my question.
@@racealexander1660 Anyone can have spiritual experiences though. No reason to stay in a church for that.
I am a huge fan of Dan and appreciate his stoicism, honesty, and ability to break down data over dogma! 👍
This is great! I love Dan's stuff! He is a level-headed, scholarly, and well-informed/educated scholar. I also kind of thought he was a member of the LDS or former.
Well, if he got baptized, served a mission, what was him?
Excellent epi. One of the very best. Also the first time I’ve ever heard John ask a single question I thought was a bit uninformed. That isn’t an indictment of John but rather admiration that in the hundreds and hundreds of hours I’ve listened to I’ve never heard him ask anything but excellent questions!
I find I disagree with Dan about what faith is. He has prompted me to return to the Bible to see how it is defined. I think of faith as a belief in something that can’t be proven or disproven. Not as a way for a person to accept things against which there is strong contrafactual data. ‘Jesus is my Saviour’ is a statement in the realm of faith that is very hard to prove or disprove. But ‘the Book of Mormon is an ancient record of the Semitic inhabitants of the americas’ is not. That is one of my main issues with the LDS church. It asks people to have faith in things already proven false.
How has the bom been 'proven' false?
@@racealexander1660 The Charles Anthon narrative as the church has presented it for years is debunked. The witness of the 8 and the 3 is riddled with issues which the LDS church has long mischaracterised. The ‘emperor’s-new-clothes’ approach to the ancient record kept in a box and unseen by all except a few unreliable witnesses during a semi-spiritual, ethereal vision, remembered and recounted inconsistently is a mere gossamer thread by which to hang the BoM’s credibility. Even without all that, the text in se is replete with errata (such as translation errors unique to the edition of the Bible in Joseph’s possession) that invalidate it, and the world’s ‘most correct book’ has been heavily edited, including having some of its core doctrines changed.
The original text of the BoM had about 269,000 words. If the plates had any fewer words on each one than the modern book edition, you would need well over 600 sheets of metal. I believe 200 words is the highest number ever found on an inscription written on metal. And saying the ancients used metal plate books because there examples of metal inscriptions is like saying we write books on sandwich boards. Joseph describes the plates as 6 by 8 inches long and 6 inches thick. Others described them as even smaller. It just doesn’t add up.
Why did this trickster god set things up this way? A record of an unknown people in an unknown language on a non-existent medium retrieved by magical folkloric tradition translated by occult means as the instrument to restore the fullness of truth. It doesn’t make much sense. Why would God choose such unwieldy instruments to restore the gospel fullness: An egg shaped piece of jasper in a hat, a pair of spectacles, a racist narrative, an abhorrent marital institution, an unknown language, a unique set of records that vanished without a trace. God indeed works in a mysterious way.
I came to celebrate Dan’s scholarship and learn more about his background. Instead I was enthralled hearing him discuss attempting to vindicate marginalized communities. Loved that so much-I truly hope more people start seeing that important lesson inside of the Church.
And then you went and mentioned Thom Wayment. He is a dear man and a wonderful scholar. I am still proud, to this day as a post-Mormon, that I worked for Thom. Couldn’t agree more with Dan that they share a commitment to data.
I knew I loved for a reason and that is your unbiased search for truth and facts and I'm thankful for capacities for education and then your gift for educating others with the truth 🙌 so glad that I stumbled upon you and TY!
He has an incredible life story. I understand him not being a good student, but he went on to be a phenomenal scholar.
As an atheist/agnostic, I appreciate Dan's approach to discussing these topics. Data over dogma.
Great intro to Mormon Stories, John! Your work is powerful!
“I grew up with a competent education so I know evolution was true” 😂😂😂 legitimately laughed out loud, love when Dan let’s the sass out.
Love the trailer. Your work is the same compassion and love I’d imagine Christ to have.
Love Dan. I’ve learned a lot from him and absolutely love what he’s doing.
Great interview.
In the second half Dan makes me wince a little each time he talks about faith being used to overide contradictory evidence. I don't think that's how faith works or what it's for.
Faith says "with your eyes open, accept the truth of these things for which there is no visible/tangible evidence" ... which is a whole different project from saying "shut your eyes, and accept the truth of these things which are contradicted by visible/tangible evidence."
Folks going around with their eyes open might make mistakes, but at least they can say they are honestly looking for what is true ... folks going around with their eyes shut, not so much.
"Tell me all your thoughts on god, 'cause I really want to meet her..." is a line from Dishwalla's "Counting Blue Cars". Scot Alexander, the bassist, is an active LDS Member. The former lead singer and songwriter, JR Richards, is not.
I totally nerded out when I saw this notification pop up on my phone. Love Dan McClellan. Can't wait to listen to this!
This was a great interview and so informative. I had no idea that BYU even offered a classical education and Ancient Greek. Fascinating interview
Dan is great! Haven't listened yet but I look forward to doing so
3:17:14 There are two reasons in my mind why the church can't separate itself from the KJV. First is mostly what Dan said at this time stamp. The real issue that didn't get stated here is that the church considers the BoM to have been translated line-by-line from the seer stone, so to change it would be to upstage what God has divinely approved to be as the best words to use for its "translation". And if fallible men believe they can change what was divinely approved scripture, that essentially means these men believe they have more authority than god, which would indicate to the believers that the leadership has become corrupt and is leading the church astray.
The other problem is the fact that Joseph Smith made divinely approved changes to the KJV specifically. So if some other version of the bible has a different context for a passage or section of scripture preceding or following a passage revised by Joseph Smith, then the JST passage isn't going to make sense within that version of the bible. Not to mention that a different version may have an entirely different meaning for a passage that was revised by J.S.
So the church is stuck with it. The whole point of modern day scripture is to being back "plain and precious truths" that were lost during the great apostasy. And if these modern day scriptures themselves need to be changed to fit a different version of the bible (Like the Isaiah chapters in 2 Nephi or Jesus' words in 3 Nephi visiting the Americas) then it defeats that whole purpose of having modern day scripture in the latter days.
I haven’t finished the interview yet but wow and Dan‘s testimony and story is just simply amazing. Even though I personally disagree with many of his conclusions and viewpoints. Dan always struck me as the type of kid who was striving for top of his class straight A’s in every single course, Academic type of kid but he I was actually the complete opposite of that.😊
One of my favorite public voices today. Wish more Christians/Mormons listened to Dan's Biblical commentary...Great interview!
Loved the interview and really appreciate Dan’s honesty and his work.
I would ask Dan…….. “Then what is the value of a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator if they can get things wrong? When do we know when to follow and when to disagree if they have gotten really big issues very wrong and hurt people because of the power and authority they have over members?”
Stick with the big picture. If they couldn't get anything wrong, then they wouldn't be mortal. They would be Jesus. Moses got stuff wrong, Peter, etc. But they didn't get the big picture doctrine wrong. The people who discounted Moses because of his weakness didn't look at the brass serpent and refused to be healed.
Those who leave modern day prophets are refusing the true healing of the atonement as well.
Throughout history, the concept of God has evolved in tandem with cultural, environmental, and societal changes. Joseph Smith's portrayal of an anthropomorphic God, with marital ties reminiscent of early Old Testament interpretations, may have inadvertently aligned with certain elements of biblical scholarship. However, his later depictions of God appeared to be more influenced by his personal beliefs and lifestyle and or a reflection of his own ego. Gods often mirror the needs and concerns of their era: agrarian societies had deities focused on agriculture, while hunter-gatherer tribes venerated gods associated with warfare. The term "Lord of Hosts," for example, can be translated as the god of war or armies. As humans rose in prominence and their fears shifted from animals to other humans, deities transitioned from animalistic figures to human-like entities or demigods. Admittedly, this is a simplified overview, but given the constraints of a TH-cam comment, brevity is essential. Most may not even read this entire comment! 😴 lol
I did, lol, thanks.
Thank you for sharing your story Dan and John for the interview. Dan's honesty, character, humility, profound understanding of the subject matters and communication skills - (eloquent) was spot-on!.
I've learned and will apply these new found words, ideas, language and understandings into my daily life.
Waiting patiently for Part 2.
Blessings
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great interview! He and Patrick Mason can make positive changes in this orthodoxy of the LDS faith! Mason’s life seemed one of living through rose colored glasses but Dan has experienced life! 🤣🤣
I just watched episode 1 of Dan’s podcast. It confirmed information in a book I’ve been reading on Bible Myths and their parallels. 💙
What book?
I can’t even listen to this guy. He’s said he’s poor now at least 10 times but they could afford ti eat fried chicken every night? They had a gaming system, his parents had money to put him in sports. He had a CAR in high school?! Omg this guy does not know what poor is. Also- anyone that feels bad about him saying he’s poor cause they lived in apartments- my apartment is $5,200 a month here in LA. Don’t feel bad to rent. This guy has no gauge on what makes people rich or poor, idk why he so desperately wants to make that part of his storyline
80s and 90s poor was different imho. Different standards of living and different sacrifices
I wanted to throw up in my yard, after hearing the utter nonsense and false doctrine presented in the interview.Dan reminds me of Scar in the Lion King,whose rise to fame ended poorly.Also, if you read about the foolish darkness that comes out of Korihor's mouth in the Book of Mormon, and compare it to the stuff voiced by Dan McClellan, you will find they match perfectly.
Great discussion, thanks John and Dan. People of all faiths could enjoy. I was raised Catholic.
Dan is so awesome!!! I definitely recommend his social media/TH-cam to ppl often
So many good comments in this that would be perfect for your TH-cam shorts content. First one was when he explained why the king James version of the Bible isn't necessarily superior and then also when he explained how the Bible doesn't necessarily condemn homosexuality itself, but that it's just about social politics and what fits with what is accepted just like how the Bible has instances of supporting slavery but we have decided to reject that in modern society. Very strong points and very easy to understand
This guy knows nothing about the truths of the Bible. Everything he believes is 100% Biblically incorrect.
Oh my gosh!! Dan is one of my heroes! Can’t wait to listen.
that's sad
Typically I listen and fall asleep. This young man’s story is too interesting to fall asleep!
Great discussion. Anxiously waiting for part 2.
Very informative. I like how breaks things down and try’s to get at the truth. Love it!! The only criticism I have is the comment about food stamps. I understand the context of what he was talking about was just responding to criticisms about him being on food stamps but it made it seem like there was something wrong with that. Lots of people require or need additional help to get on their feet. The comment made it seem like Ugg I’m not one of those people like I’m better than that. I know it wasn’t his intent but it should have been addressed.
It's impressive how Dan is able to maintain his standing as a critical scholar within the LDS Church. In contrast, in the Jehovah's Witness organization, I found that pursuing higher education was strongly discouraged due to the fear of independent critical thinking. Despite having left the organization in 1994, I still encounter difficulty engaging in open and intellectusl conversations about the "organization" with current Jehovah's Witnesses in person. While online discussions with unfamiliar Jehovah's Witnesses can happen, they often become dogmatic, confrontational, and unproductive, which can be quite exhausting.
Excited for this one! Dan is so incredibly knowledgeable.
It would be very interesting to see Dan apply Data over Dogma to the Book of Mormon.
I've never felt so connected to someone else's experience. I've never understood the constant, false dichotomy coming from both sides for how to believe. It also has surprised me how often people feel that the church is a monoculture that can't have a diversity of thought.
Wating from Norway, but starting to get late, might catch up later. I love how the net bring together really thoughtful content making the information flow and insight quadruple. What took years and years before can now happen in moths. What a wonderful time to be curious in!
He is similar to Bart Ehrman with whom he has appeared.
Dan McClellan is right up there with Bart D. Ehrman. I appreciate that scholarship.
Wonderful interview! I wonder if Dan would still feel similarly as he does today if he was raised in a typical devout LDS home.
OMG!! I remember, I was born and raised in Charles town W. Va. The commune was called Stonegate and a 2 year old child got paddled to death there. The woman was Dorothy McClellan who ran Stonegate. I guess you would have been very young at the time.
Wow, must have been his mother.
Dan McClellan been watching many of your videos. You are one of the best scholars if not the best I have heard of. Your honest research is so hard to find almost everyone has bias and bias shows greatly in their work. You just seem to go where the facts lead you. I watched all five hours of this as well.
I guess you stay active LDS because there is no true Church on this earth so why not?
I loved this interview. I just didn’t like the last part where he’s trying to compare who has had a bigger impact Dan or Bart Erhman? It’s like…does it matter? Just let it go.
Agree
I’m so excited for this interview! ❤
I finally get why people often want Dan to explain his reconciliation between his faith and his scholarship. It’s because they want to do the same thing. They see Dan (a biblical scholar) still strong in his faith and they want to know how with all the information available to them they can still have a Christian relationship with God. I wonder if that’s something that Dan would be interested in helping people with?
This guy knows absolutely nothing about the truth of the Bible. he is completely Biblically illiterate.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe9509Can you elaborate on the truth you say he does not know?
Or perhaps people are wanting to know how with all the information available to him, how he can still support a high-control group that he recognizes has done and continues to do harm?
I managed to be a devout Mormon for 35 years starting in '74. I was never taught anything against evolution. I even told someone recently that Mormons believed in evolution AND the Bible. I never saw a problem. It does strike me though, that in popular Christianity, belief in evolution has become something of an acid test used to pass judgment. My impression is that the church has tried too hard to fit in with popular Christianity. ...and a separate thought... I used several science text books in college ('78-80) that included a mention of God in the introduction: something to the same affect, that it can be both. I don't think God and religion can work if you're not wiling to embrace a bit of mystery. Isn't that the best part?
I find more interest in what Dan isnt saying than what he is...🧐...silence on certain topics speaks volumes...
If we are to accept that Mormon prophets are fallible, then they need to clearly indicate when they are speaking as a man. That isn't our responsibility. Modern prophets also need to go over every utterance of past prophets and indicate which utterances are inspired and which are not. This is their responsibility to their followers.
I felt a deep and honest connection with Dan while watching this. He just seems like such a genuine person.
I’m still puzzled by his continuing participation in the institution. Data over dogma is like the antithesis of the institutional church, at least from my experience.
Honesty is refreshing.
@maklelan Thanks for sharing your story! I love your work and was pleasantly surprised to hear your mention of Dallas. I lived at that same famous apartment intersection around the same time, worked at the Galleria and used to attend PBC.
Lovely! Been hoping for this.
This is actually a new form of apologetics, replacing the old one that tells you: Forget the facts, ignore the changes of opinion by so-called prophets, and just trust that we're right somehow anyway. This one is still saying suspend your disbelief and be a Mormon, but feel free to study contradictory data and wait for the church to catch up.
I guess the “warts and all” don’t look so ugly to someone who wasn’t abused personally by said warts, I don’t really understand but I’ll be the first to admit the topic of institutionalize religion is emotionally charged for me to the point that I sometimes struggle to remember the good things people experience while part of a religious community. I hope in the future I can let go of the things church leaders said to me to the point that I can also accept that those things probably came from a very flawed, human place. Likely more motivated by protecting their own insecurities around our religious practices rather than seeing the spark of Satan in my soul…. The amount of discomfort I feel while watching this video seems like a good indication that my world view is about to undergo some growth so really looking forward to listening to the next episodes!