Is "biblical womanhood" real? We asked expert scholar Dan McClellan
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- Dr. Dan McClellan is a biblical scholar whose formal expertise includes Second Temple Judaism, the early Israelite religion, the cognitive science of religion, and textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible. He's a champion for reason, evidence, and compassion-and we're obsessed with him!
Find Dan everywhere: linktr.ee/maklelan
SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ⬇️💜
Patreon: / zelphontheshelf
PayPal: www.paypal.com/paypalme/zelph...
Join us in Costa Rica this September! 🌴
trovatrip.com/trip//central-a...
#exmormon #exvangelical #biblestudy - บันเทิง
Hi friends! We rely on donations to keep the channel going and if you like our content, we’d love for you to join our Patreon community! 😊 www.patreon.com/zelphontheshelf
You can also make a one-time or monthly donation via PayPal: www.paypal.com/paypalme/zelphontheshelf
Lots of fun stuff coming soon! 🌝
I had to leave university (not voluntarily, but they claimed it was my choice) due to the effects of my disabilities, so it's genuinely really inspiring to hear that Dan was once kicked out of university before becoming the amazing scholar he is today. It makes me feel so much more positive about myself and my future, especially since I'm now specialising in similar fields. I hope he sees this comment.
You had me at “those who can’t think critically and google competently.” 🤪
I dropped out of college and then tried again later and barely made it but then couldn’t get a job. I tired starting my own business and failed but then my second attempt at a business was reasonably successful and I’m applying to graduate school
Dan is awesome. When we disagree, there's actual data to review. More like Dan.
I didn't talk to my parents for almost 2 months after the 2016 election. I had never told them about my assault (which was exactly the kind of thing that was mentioned in the bus interview.) I cried for a solid week because I had bled all over social media begging people I thought were good people not to vote for this man. And in the end it didn't matter. I had already ceased attending church at that point because the church I was attending tried to cover up that one of their Sunday School teachers had been arrested for CSA, but that was the straw that made sure I would never be a Christian again.
My experiences can't compare with yours, but the past eight years have been transformative about how I view the church and organized Christianity. Where it's going, I cannot follow.
Organized Christianity is not the problem. Disorganized Christianity, “Christian” infotainment is the problem
@@Geoplanetjane I am going to disagree from the standpoint, that it takes organized Christianity to cover up SA scandals. When I went through with a relatively progressive church as an adult was a problem with organized Christianity. I found out about happened through the grape vine. I wrote my pastors about it and they told me that I didn't need toknow. They expected me to stand up in front of parents of 4-5 year olds and tell them their kids were safe in church without all the information and it was a decison by the church board and everything. No, that needed organization to happen and I am not okay with that.
@@Geoplanetjane Christianity was invented and organized to get people to do what they want. Created for power and influence. That takes organization. Its always been harmful but in its historic and modern forms.
So happy to see Dan visiting on your channel! It's so important that people like Dan are make biblical scholarship more publicly available. ❤🎉
I can’t believe you had Dan on your show and didn’t ask about the historicity of the Book of Mormon!
Needed approx. 10 more hours with him!!
He talks about that a bit in his Mormon Stories interview
@@AChickandaDuck... and it is like 12 HOURS long in 3 parts, so yeah 😅
I grew up in a non denominational church and I remember that talk my mother gave me once telling me that she would rather I die the lose my faith. Luckily for all I survived the journey away from faith and towards reason
The collab I've been dreaming of 😍This is gonna be good.
Awesome to have Dan on your channel, Sam & Tan, I am so excited :)!!!
DAN FOR PRESIDENT
This is the Marvel ExMo crossover I've always needed. And a guest appearance by a kitty! 🤩
Yes, I know Prof is still actuve in the LDS. To each their own.
Even in social, cultural, historical terms the architecture of traditional/biblical womanhood is rooted in early capitalism and the creation of the middle class. Women have always worked in and out of the home, even in the upper classes and the nobility. What changed is the emergence of an economic prosperity that allowed one man to support his entire family so for the first time women could be entirely freed from the responsibility of contributing to household expenses. In response there arose the Cult of Domesticity or the Cult of True Womanhood in the early 1800's. This is the first iteration of what is now called Biblical Womanhood; the woman's place is in the home, her role is to raise children, nurture religiosity in the home, provide nutritious and delicious food, and obey her husband in all things. The Nazis called it Kinder, Kuche, Kirche. An additional aspect of this ideology was the notion that women should be restricted to the home, that it was a sanctified place, designated by God of course. Women were not to be exposed to the sordid outside world even to the extent that they had no knowledge of their husband's business or income. Like so much of Evangelical Christianity it has deep roots in the emergence of capitalism in the Nineteenth Century and little to do with the Bible.
Loved this, Dan is a top notch guest. Loved the little black kitty too.
What a beautiful black cat
I spent the whole video wondering why they had that happy face emoji next to Dan, until I realized it's a lamp in the background :D
The upside down cross is also Christian despite popular belief.
Gonna have to start using the inside-out cross
I started listening to their podcast recently, so cool you guys got him on!! 🥳 I’m loving the collabs ❤
Awesome collab. I love to watch both channels.
Why does Utah support Trump? I don’t get it. I’m a life long registered Republican. I would never vote for that bozo.
Redneck nonsense. Mormons became Republican along with Ezra Taft Benson and Ronald Reagan ( who taught heresy that OUR government is the enemy)
Great convo, thank you
I mean, I always loved Dan, but after this it just solidified my choice to love the man.
cant wait to watch but holy shit am I soooo happy to see a black kitty!! did a new cat just drop? did dan bring is cat for some reason? will it all be explained in this video? idk! I'm 4 mins in. Anyway, i love seeing my child represented on screen
I have miniature void panthers too. They are perfection.
Looking after a friend’s kitten for a week!
@@ZelphOntheShelf fun!! I love a cat sitting moment. such a cutie!!
I LOVE a good Void Panther!
😊
Really informative! Thanks for this.
Very interesting and sensible. I was just thinking "I wonder if he's written any books" then he mentioned his upcoming book :)
awesome interview 🔥
Despite focusing on the content. Visually, I don’t like the constant one camera angle with jump cuts. Dan can’t look over at either person he is talking to and still have the mic pick up his sound with quality, so he is talking to the table, lol, while they look at him.
If it still has to be a single camera, maybe a wider shot with a half circle table or half hexagon, so the guest can at least give more eye contact to the hosts while they engage.
such a cool interview!
Will contemplate “the spirit became to” vs “came to” for the rest of my life. Thank you 🎉
Great show. Rachel Held Evans book 'A Year of Biblical Womenhood'. changed my world. She was not a scholar, but she certainly showed thier was no one way to do Womanhood in the bible.
This is such good content. A great video for me. I love Dan's chill intellect and I think zelph did such a good interview\discussion.
I so wish that D>d had been available in my youth. ❤️ So happy it’s available to our curious young people now.🌱
I misread that as “Dad”
I vote for more cat in every video. 🐈⬛️
Top quality content 👏
Omg you guys are the best! Dr. Dan !! I love him !! 😍 📚
🤓🥰
Something that puzzles me is: how can he maintain different epistemic standards for his religious beliefs and the rest of his beliefs and be comfortable with that?
I know that when I stopped giving my religious beliefs a special, less rigorous standard, and applied one consistent standard to all of my beliefs, any sense of spirituality and belief in Mormonism collapsed in on itself like a dying star.
That is the faith based portion of it. One can believe all kinds of things. Separating that from the facts of the matter. It is how religion should be. I am an atheist personally but my parents are both very baptist Christian. I have my beliefs and they have theirs. I have had these conversations with my father and have pointed out many things and I have said this is where the faith portion comes in and that is something I do not have and I showed and explained why. It made our understanding of each other much better and it helps me understand how and why others believe. As long as it is not getting pushed on all of us (Christian nationalist), I have no problem with people believing whatever faith based dogma they choose.
@@sillyrabbit77and the way that I understand faith is that it is the acceptance of claims without evidence, which I consider the weakest possible method of forming beliefs. Faith can lead to not only abhorrent beliefs, but mutually exclusive ones. Faith is unreliable, and I’m comfortable in saying that no one should ever use faith for anything.
This was my struggle with Dan's Mormon Stories episode too.
Thank you for this. Glad Dan is out there fighting for the truth.
I'm grateful that truth is important to a few of us. I think Dan's work is helping a lot of people. also has anyone been following Chief Midegah? the birch bark scrolls? the fact the native Americans are petitioning the LDS church for acknowledgement? the coming Native American reveal in September 2024?
this is the collab of my dreams
SAME 🥲
Dan's my man.
❤
OMG!!!! DAN MCLELLAN!!!! Omg are u serious u got freakin dan mclellan omg. What a bloody coup
I KNOW WE ARE STILL FREAKING OUT 🙈
I love that yall talked to Dan, he's a gem.
One note though, the editing on this video is really off-putting. I'd recommend using a different text, not the 2014 vlogger cursive text no one uses any more...
That was satirical haha
I have a crush on Dave and dan now!
One thing about this channel is we promise to consistently provide you with new crushes 💓✨
The black kitty 🥹
Tanner is sooo dreamy. 🥰
What is this two videos in 24 hours business????
Who's black kitty? So cute!!
My friend’s! Just looking after him for a week 🥹
The-CAT-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed!
Great podcast, but you guys should really consider adjusting your set. This isn't a panel at comic-con, you should all be facing each other to have a conversation and not be sitting on the same side of a table facing a camera
this actually IS a panel at comic con, but if you’re interested in paying for a new set, we’re accepting donations!
…we’re not at comicon?
Can someone ask Dan what the best modern english bible is that is both easy to understand and it keeps most of its original meaning...
On the Data over Dogma podcast Dan has generally recommended the NRSV-UE as an edition that takes critical scholarship into account while using easy to understand modern language
I've asked the same and never received an answer. My experience has been that sticking to any single translation will burn you eventually. The "best" translations are the NRSVUE, in combination with the JPS on Sefaria. These sources differ from each other, but both frequently provide footnotes where the original meaning is lost/unknown, what the literal meaning is, or what text variants say. Combine these with interlinear LXX and MT, and a lexicon, but don't trust any one of these sources alone either, because they can be wrong or misleading. Even with all of this there are passages that are contentious and it's effectively impossible to figure out the "original" meaning (e.g. Psa. 22:17), or the original meaning is still papered over for theological purposes (e.g. Isa. 14:12).
QUAD C MENTIONED!! :D
Right?!?
Speaking of graphic t-shirts, Sam wore a t-shirt a six (or more) months ago that had the Gilgal Joesph Smith sphinx with Deseret alphabet writing, I think it was light teal color.
I’ve looked everywhere for that shirt and I can’t find it... @zelphontheshelf Can you point me in the right direction?
Oooo I found the video where same is wearing the t-shirt, it was streamed live on Oct 10, 2023: th-cam.com/video/iNS92Hosz7k/w-d-xo.html
Our friend made them! She used a stamp thing, not sure where you could find them now 😬 let me inquire!
@@ZelphOntheShelf I’d love to get one!
Now I’m going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out what the text says… That Deseret alphabet is tough.
Keep sweet pray obey? Humm. Keep Utah?
I think I got it… Keep Utah
Peculiar.
Dan for prophet!
I can't stop starring at that Paddington flag in the background...
DAN
In the hood. is a covering, persona being a mask in latin
OMG Cool! Is Ammon Hillman next? 🤪
His channel "Lady Babylon" is from a branch of scholarship that concludes that the Greek is the original language of the old testament not the Hebrew (there's a big scandal right now about it within biblical scholarship and classical philology).
@@ajcbodygenius big scandal? is that what you call a classicist spouting absolute nonsense online?
@Agryphos lol, yeah, that is what I was referring to. An expert in one field who has a different conclusion than another expert in a similar field, but they apply different paradigms. Baptize the history with fire baby! Muahahahahaha
*Title double take*
“Is … womanhood real? We asked a *man”*
😜
Great talk, very much enjoyed it, but, what an incredibly uncomfortable setup for an interview/conversation. It really shouldn’t affect me since I’m not in the room, but it does make this harder to watch. Weird.
Haha sorry, we can’t afford a set right now 😅 we agree with you though!
@@ZelphOntheShelf understandable. I did have to came back and edit the comment to include that I did enjoy the show, the other was just an also observation.
I definitely did not expect someone to namedrop my hometown (Linz, Austria) in this video. Although him saying that he didn't like our food is honestly crazy! Lots of our dishes as basically meat and potatos, who doesn't like that? Wiener Schnitzel, Schweinsbraten, Spätzle, Kaiserschmarrn,... there are so many delicious dishes!
Even as a vegan I can agree that those things are delicious 😂
I lived in Deutschland long ago and enjoyed the food, but not sure how it would be now that I don’t eat animal products. The breads, cheeses, schnitzels were very good.
@@robinsaxophone232 Berlin has a pretty good reputation in that regard but I think the rest of the country would be a lot tougher. In Austria there is at least one or two vegetarian dishes on the menu at pretty much every restaurant (some have more options). But vegan dishes are very rare unless it's like a hipster kind of place. It's getting better though.
You’ve heard of “Harry Potter and the Sacred Text” right?
I truly don't understand how someone can know so much about the origins of religious texts academically and then still be an active member of the LDS? Like, how do you reconcile that cognitive dissonance?
THIS!!!! I went and looked at his blog, and I came across a post where [if I understand correctly] he said that, basically, he isn't concerned with the historicity of the book of Mormon. How can that be?? It's literally his field of study. He said it makes his life better. But... to not even really care if it's true? I'm completely baffled.
@@lisaw8619He has videos saying something along the lines that there is nothing to support the historicity of LDS things. And since he joined them as an adult, he was not raised to believe everything was true.
People can be christians with a Bible having mistakes, errors, false claims, descriptions of things that never happened and approval of things that were terrible (e.g. story near Judges 19: 22 is absolutely traumatizing, and it deserves a PROPER trigger warning with modern translations- it definitely wasn't a good story to read as a teenager).
You don't have to treat bible as an inerrant univocal text with everything being literally true. But there are quite a lot of people who do treat it that way.
People can be part of LDS despite their main guy being quite a crazy man. You don't have to believe in their founding story, creation account, their attitude to genders, race etc etc. And yes, there are absolutely people who do believe that.
How do you reconcile the cognitive dissonance of believing that people can't know so much of the origins of religious texts academically and still be active members of the LDS and seeing one of the most knowledgeble scholars out there do that?
I think it is really important, especially post enlightenment, to know what parts of a religion are fact based and what parts are faith based due to the theology one believes. We are all allowed to believe how we want and I have the highest respect for those who argue in good faith like Dan does. He is one of my favorites. Being able to set aside dogma and combat misinformation and then being able to have and enjoy your faith based theological views is refreshing. That is how it should be.
Dan is going to be punished by god for liking La Croix
We go down together
You have a cute kitty
Please please please make a short of Dan explaining why Trump should not be president😅
*ChatGPT Generated Timestamps*
00:00:00 - Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:02:10 - Early Life and Academic Background
00:04:55 - Initial Interest in Religion and Theology
00:11:35 - Journey into Biblical Scholarship
00:14:20 - Graduate Studies and Research Focus
00:20:50 - Insights on Translation and Interpretation
00:23:45 - The Role of Context in Biblical Texts
00:32:00 - Key Challenges in Biblical Studies
00:35:15 - Debates on Literal vs. Figurative Interpretation
00:44:15 - Perspectives on Faith and Scholarship
00:47:30 - Balancing Academic Rigor and Personal Beliefs
01:01:25 - Handling Controversial Topics
01:04:50 - Approaching Difficult Biblical Passages
01:13:40 - Advice for Aspiring Scholars
01:16:25 - Importance of Critical Thinking and Open-mindedness
01:27:55 - Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Ducktails Dan
Lintzer torten!
*Dan McClellan: biblical & LDS women hood is (700 wives & 300 concubines) because Solomon did nothing wrong!!! -- Joe D&C 132*
I would say that Dan was wrong in only one thing on this video: Donald Trump is not stupid or incompetent, he is what we would say ‘evil’. He is smart, purposely doing what he is doing for his agenda and interest, and on harm to millions of people around the world and US society on a whole.
isn't evil just another form of ignorance?
I love Dan. He thinks words have no meaning and, therefore, nothing really has a message.
That’s not a quite true: he believes that words and language have no *inherent* meaning, which is true. All language is arbitrarily socially constructed
@@weirdlanguageguy and therefore nothing really has a message
@@kylestephens4133 although nothing has an inherent message, things can still carry messages. They're just highly contingent on cultural context and social construction
@@weirdlanguageguy I categorically reject the notion that nothing has an inherent message, as do linguists.
I feel like I’m missing something. Maybe a blind spot as a born and raised atheist. But I am genuinely confused. What is an academic study of the Bible if you are Christian? If you are Christian then I assume you believe the Bible is true so then I don’t see how you could analyze the Bible from an academic perspective. I’m genuinely confused and feel like I’m missing something.
Watch some of his stuff, he explains the Bible is actually a bunch of separate text translated from several languages over thousands of years. So of course, parts have been interpreted in various ways to very deliberately shape how people behave, i.e. the whole "homosexuality is Biblically wrong". When in fact there was no mention of it in the original texts. His debunking shorts are super funny.
Yes, you're missing a lot actually. A lot of christians don't see the bible as "true" in a sense that every word, every claim is historical. On the contrary, they assume only a divine influence, or even no influence at all but the faithfull writings of the people who worshipped the "true" god at the time. In these terms, the bible is very much a human product and can be studied like any other book.
The "issue" is that with all our modern knowledge, including those bible studies, it appears more and more evident that the bible isn't "true", so the people who holds this view are whining about it the loudest, so that's probably the side of christianity you've been exposed to as a life-long atheist.
And how most people think of Christianity in this era of megachurches and infotainment preachers.
@@skyinou I appreciate your response! I’ll be honest that I’m still confused, though I’m having trouble articulating it in a TH-cam comment :). I’m definitely going to seek out a Christian friend to delve into this more because I really genuinely want to understand. I’ll try here though to put something into words (please bear with me)… if we instead assume the Bible isn’t “true” but is a creation by humans, why do folks apply it’s teachings to influence how they live their lives? Yes, when I read fiction I can gain insight and wisdom that I then apply to my life, but that’s a conscious choice using my own logical reasoning skills. It’s recognizing that another human has articulated something about life that resonates with me and then I choose to adopt it. Perhaps that is in fact how folks approach the Bible, but that confuses me because if an all knowing God influenced the writing of the Bible then these stories are not simply stories to resonate with, but teachings to learn from as we are only human and God has more wisdom. Does that make any sense at all?? Also feel free to not respond, this is definitely not a convo for short TH-cam comments lol.
@@ka8544 "why do folks apply it’s teachings to influence how they live their lives?" - This is the million $$ question. I'll simplify it this way: Let's pretend that there are 100 claims about god in the bible. 40 are good principles and values, which can improve one's life. 20 are too bad to represent a good god, so they must be misunderstandings by people from 2000-2500 years ago. What do the average christian do with the 10 others? They will consider this: since god is good, and they're not sure if these are good or bad, there's a higher chance that they are good since they are in the bible.
It's not an intellectual exercice, it's a faith and religious (practices and rites) one. It's also random laziness. People don't spend enough time on every issue - I'm not blaming here: we just don't have enough time in our lives -unless they are directly concerned.
Then there is the social aspect; these christians will talk among themselves, and with their preachers, and again may conclude that something is bad or good depending on their feeling inside that bubble (also keep in mind that these bubbles come from 2 millenia during which there was more faith toward the bible) and social pressure. Pointing out that something is bad in the bible is not looked upon kindly, even if alone in their home they may know that some verses are bad.
But from an outside perspective, yes, it very much is one form or the other of cognitive dissonance. It's also a very deep circular reasoning: the bible was considered good at its time, so people decided that this god is good. Now christians try to interpret most of the stories in the bible as good because of it, even if the story doesn't particularly point to that. But it's hard to make christians acknowledge that.
Dan is a bit "fringe" in his views though, even if he is a "scholar." Take what he says with a large grain of salt.
Christianity has long held a parasitic relationship with government. This is why I more interested in the original teachings of Jesus and what the Bible actually says, without all the layers of traditions and theology. In order to do this, Dan is an incredible and valuable resource. He is so articulate. I follow all his podcasts.
I don't watch Zelph very often, but when I do, it usually comes across as trivial and silly. Having Dan on as a guest has shown me that you two can be serious and thoughtful. I would like to see podcasts like this move on from just bashing the church, to something more positive. Not that the church doesn't deserve being bashed. It does. But, after you have "deconstructed" somebody's faith, they have nothing left.
We are often serious and thoughtful 🤷🏼♀️ We don’t “just bash the church” at all and we constantly talk about healthy spirituality after religion.
Dan is really informative but also annoying AF when trying to heal from religious trauma and he comes in with the unhelpful academics of it when you personally weren’t even emotionally ready for wrapping your mind around. So I wish I would have blocked him, hahah but yeah. He’s definitely informed.
Sorry to hear that’s your experience! Hopefully you heal soon and can enjoy his work! Good luck