My grandfather heard this story at the knee of his great-grandmother. He was 24 and on his mission when she finally died. He reports that she was an eyewitness to the transfiguration. We do not have her words on this. We don't know if she claimed to be an eyewitness or if her detailed storytelling merely left him with the impression. But he was adamant she saw it with her own eyes. And I grew up believing that I had an ancestors eyewitness to this event. What I now know - things that are readily researched on church sites and which I only learned as an adult: She was born in Staffordshire, England. Her parents and family joined the church, and came by boat to Nauvoo. From there, they walked to Salt Lake City as part of the first handcart company. So, there's the rub: she arrived in Nauvoo in 1856. SHE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THE ACTUAL EVENT. Anything she reports about it is hearsay. And my grandfather's report is an additional step of hearsay removed from any original report. Further, we have no way of determining what year she first heard the story, only that it had to have been before she first told my grandfather, which would have been circa 1915 - 1917. So, this "eyewitness" account I grew up with turns out to not be very helpful at all.
And where down the line did the 'eyewitness' claim emerge? Did she claim it, did he as a boy hear her tell the story and thought she was talking as if she was there? Were there other family members keen to assume/presume it? Fascinating example of the memory drift, and the generational effect.
@helenr4300 The fact that there are only three steps back to the "event" (me hearing it from my grandfather hearing it from his great-grandmother who heard it first) is remarkable. And we still got it wrong!
Yes. The implication was that Joseph Smith was such a special boy that he was practicing the Word of Wisdom more than 20 years before it was "revealed" to him. In reality, the more plausible reason is that he was afraid they would amputate his leg if he was not awake and alert enough to scream bloody murder if they tried.
**Has anyone else noticed that 7 years after Brigham took over the church would have been the same year that Joseph Smith the 3rd turned 18? Brigham would have needed a way to strengthen his positioning against the one person he probably saw as his most significant threat to his power. Pushing a miracle story and backdating sources would have been a very Brigham thing to do.
It wasn't Brigham who saw the vision, it was hundreds of people. So He wouldn't have been aware of how it appeared to them. Brigham didn't seek the position as prophet, so he wouldn't be pushing anything. Everyone had a choice as to who to follow. Brigham would have much rather been able to go back to carpentry. He loved to build things and even hated wearing a suit. He was rough around the edges, but never pushy unless directing a building project.
This transfiguration dive is going to blow some people away. This is a “story” all members have been told repeatedly in Sunday school. It’s is a prime example that if you repeat a lie enough times … it becomes “true”. However a closer look at the historical facts will show ONCE AGAIN that the LDS church is not exactly what it proclaims to be Sit back folks. This episode is going to be a shocker
Indoctrination is powerful and difficult to break because this is ingrained since childhood as the brain developes. Study the nueroscience on our brain and our learning stages. It's why I agree with China's stance that religion isn't allowed to be taught to children, only adults so they can they choose if they want to participate.
I have NEVER heard of any of this - great LDS Discussions episode as always. Thank you Mike for the incredible deep dive and thank you John for giving him a platform!
I asked my mom when I was home if she had heard of this, and she told me this is how she knew that the sect that followed Young following Smith’s death was still the “true church”. I was so surprised she had heard of it
I like that you include and then go beyond what this says about LDS prophetic succession claims, to discuss the implications regarding the malliability of human memory, and the evolution of miracle stories within religious or political communities. LDS history is very valuable for these kinds of insights!
This was a battle cry for the acceptance of Brigham Young and all the other break-offs, including the RLDS (Community of Christ). You’ve got to have something substantial when you claim to be The One True Church! As for the books Saints, as well as all of the Church Manuals for Sunday School, they never give the original references. The references they site are to other current publications. When you go back to the original sources, like Wilford Woodruff who wrote in his journal everyday for 70 + years. The bottom line is, the LDS Church lies and edits its history and doctrines. Fooled me for over 50 years until I finally got access to unedited original documents and journals.
I ve heard this story began to being told after Joseph Smith the 3rd began to gather the RLDS movement. And he actually resembles a lot to his father Joseph Smith Jr, this plus JS 3rd was coming back to Independence Missouri or the Promised land in the 1850s.
I would love an episode and a deep dive into the missionary program! I’ve read that the program is research based. It’s use of psychological techniques are from some BYU professors. The total control of the life of the missionary for a length of time. The damage it can do. I’m experiencing this from the emails from a missionary out in the field. I’m not LDS, but as a non psychologist but a teacher; I’m feeling this brainwashing of this young man in real time. He sadly has no clue. 😢
I really think that even if the church doesn’t pass the “Cult” test, a mission Definitely does! These kids are controlled so completely it is very unhealthy. Our 2 sons who served missions both testified that the most important thing they learned on their mission was “exact obedience”. Looking back that really gives me the creeps. It has a real North Korea vibe to it. The most important thing I have learned is how important critical thinking is! It’s the complete opposite of exact obedience.
My great grandmother and great great grandmother were in the travels with Brigham Young from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City. I am fascinated by all of this. My mom did not raise me Mormon, but I learned a lot from my oh so devout Grandmother...I learn more and more every day about all of this!
I am very late to discovering this series of LDS Discussions, but as a recovering Mormon, I am finding these discussions to be endlessly fascinating!!! I find myself boggled at how much of this I did not know (I wonder why...), and they reinforce the decision I made years ago to leave the LDS faith. My thanks to all of you responsible for putting this content, which I deem required listening regardless of your status in the LDS Church.
I swear, a docuseries set in the time Joseph Smith starting the church, with flashbacks to his childhood/ younger events of significance, based on LDS discussions research would be absolutely must watch incredible, for anyone, member or not
Yes a perfect example of steel armed twisting enforced by the council of 50...who would want to buck Porter Rockwell,Lot Smith or Bill Hickman...totally opposite Jesus sayings,"he who will be first shall be last"...no servant mentality here. Great comparison to Vladimir Putin!
I thought this always happened - Tommy turned into Gordie, Russell transfigured into Tommy, and Dallin is ready to transfigure into anything and everything that may get in his way.
35:32 Another example of this group memory dynamic is the case where Babe Ruth is said to have pointed into the field during the World Series in 1932 indicating that he would hit the ball after striking out twice. Most people remember him pointing, but there were also many who said he didn’t point. The biggest issue is that if you add up the number of people who said they were there, that number is far over the seating capacity of the stadium. There definitely is a desire to be a part of something important. And it’s usually after a fair amount of time, allowing many people to inject themselves into the event while blurring the ability to fact check if looking.
Reading the “The Work and the Glory” books back in the early 2000s was the second big crack in my faith…the first big crack was in seminary and studying the D&C.
If it wasn’t for this issue I don’t know where my faith would be right now. I was listening to saints about 16 months ago because I was bored of listening to the scriptures and I wanted to listen to something that made me feel the spirit. As I listened and realized that there was not a laying on of hands to hand down the keys I was very taken aback. Thanks to my curiosity and your podcast I am in a much better place now. I don’t feel guilty for listening to rap music instead of the scriptures anymore😂
At 58:07. If dozens of people witnessed the transfiguration why would they not write it down. Saints were notorious for writing in journals and letters any spiritual experience they had that day or week. Like many historical events in the church we have to rely on accounts written several months or years after the fact and be expected to accept these accounts as accurate facts.
they did write it down, that's why these discussions are so beyond silly."Like many historical events in the church we have to rely on accounts written several months or years after the fact and be expected to accept these accounts as accurate facts." that could easily be said about literally every historically significant event
I also heard when JS died there was a movement that formed among the Saints. The sense of incredulity of the martyrdom of JS lead Saints to believe he would come back to life similar to Jesus Christ was resurrected. This was a belief held for a couple years after his death and one reason why succession to Brigham Young was delayed.
@@debbieshrubb1222Historians have records of these beliefs among members and people close to JS after he died. Mostly through journal entries and letters found in archives.
Thank you so much for this episode! I ran across some contradicting information a few months ago and kept wondering about it. But then never seemed to find time to really investigate this topic. Thanks for doing that for me 😜 Another topic I‘m interested in is the Kirtland Temple dedication. I’ve read some reports that say that Joseph Smith told them all to fast for a day, and then gave them tons of liquor at the event, Joseph Smith Sen. throwing up like crazy, people „speaking in tongues“ and all. And then, there is, of course, Joseph Smith‘s version of the event with Jesus and lots of angels appearing 🤪 Please do an episode on this topic, if you haven’t already. I haven’t been able to find a good video about it yet.
@@Goobersnobber47 I think I heard that it was mentioned, but I feel like it needs a whole episode itself. I would love to hear more about what people who were there wrote in their journals.
This story was indeed more miraculous than the 1874 story out of Provo, Utah of the sky falling and how it was stopped by a shepherd boy who quit drinking coffee and paid an 11% tithing. Unfortunately, the story was not recorded until 1896.
Its always the time line that does the most damage to a faithful reading of the facts around the LDS claims. The first vision, the priesthood restoration, this transfiguration incident, josephs polygamy ... all of it is just so transparently self serving when you examine the time lines of these things. The time lines are fatal to reaching the faithful conclusion, which is why the church and its apologists go way out of their way to break up people's understanding into disconnected epidodes instead of enabling folks to see the overarching picture all at once. Good job MSP team for painting the whole picture so that the flaws have no cracks to hide in. 👍
Been doing family history research with a focus on my grandparents who joined the church and emigrated to Utah... and I found this in one of their histories: "John, Elizabeth and their children were present at the special conference called to appoint a new leader for the Church. Sidney Rigdon, being Joseph’s first counselor felt he should lead the Church. There was a terrible feeling when he told this to the congregation. When Brigham Young, the President of the Twelve Apostles, arose and told the audience that by order of the priesthood it was he who would lead the Church, a sweet holy feeling came over them. They testified that he looked and sounded like the prophet. They saw a halo about him." John Utley and Elizabeth Rutledge Utley, Elizabeth died at Winter Quarters, and John remarried after settling in Toole, UT.
I think this is a great episode and I've been looking forward to it! I was taught the historicized transfiguration of Brigham Young right out of the teachings of the presidents of the church manuals. That's how important this is! It was only then that I learned about break off group's other than the flds. Since then I've done a lot of my own research and am investigating Community of Christ. I want to push back on one point on time stamp 1:15:50. The line where it says "-The first vision account..." In the line it talks about contemporary sources of Joseph smith claiming to see Jesus and falling down and what not after hearing these great revival preachers, compared to the 1832 account. That's certainly true. But it's wrong to contrast that with the later accounts of the 2 personages. Here's my reasoning. Richard Bushman in his biography Rough Stone Rolling points out at least 3 examples of preachers or religious movement starters who saw both God the father and Jesus Christ in their visions prior to 1820. So it's not wrong to say that Joseph Smith's story evolved, I just want to point out that the idea of both God and Jesus appearing in the vision would have been available to Joseph Smith's zieghtgiest prior to the 1832 account. I'm not trying to say it's a false argument that you are making as you covered it in the first vision episode, but maybe an oversight. Although I feel that the argument being made in this slide is the omission of the contemporary pre 1832 accounts of both God and Jesus. Am I making sense?
I agree with John that "feeling the spirit" is the ultimate question. The church wants us to follow our feelings. This is just an extreme case of confirmation bias. Who doesn't want to be the knower/bringer of the ultimate truth? Who doesn't want to be one of the "elect"? Who doesn't want secret knowledge that almost no one in the world has? We feel these feelings because we want it to be true because that means that we are special. Feelings are definitely not a good indication of "right" decisions. People only remember when the spirit prompts them to do something and it works out but not when things do not work out and was simply a bad decision.
I gotchu, I can make it quick. Homeboy was tired of getting kicked out and threatened from state to state, so he tried becoming president to stop it. He didn’t win, and nothing really came out of it other than the idea that Mormons were trying to take over the country.
I DID see live coverage. They had cameras on the towers just after the first plane went in, and we saw the second plane fly into the screen... I remember distinctly because I was telling my son it was an accident, until that moment, and I literally said, "oh, they are doing this on purpose. "
Hundred percent. I was a Jr in high school and we were talking about the first plane hitting the world trade center. Then in our first class my teacher had the news in and we watched the second plane hit and we knew it was not an accident. Then we saw them both fall very much live. I'll never be able to forget that.
There are recordings of the first plane hitting but there was a brief delay to get all the TV news broadcasting events live. So we did see live coverage, just not the very first bit; and we did see footage of the first plane, but not live (they didn't have a reason to drop all programming at first) Memory of the shock and trauma of the whole thing playing out much of in real time, and then repeated replays merge is our memories
Joining just after LIVE. But great to see THE MIKE and Nemo back. Would love to hear Nemo after he actually studied real Bible. Some- times the FORENSIC approach to this document is the only one that will do!! Even - or especially - with a great weight of "skepticism.". Thanks for what I'm sure will be a "REALLY BIG SHEW"! 💜💜💜
Thank-you for this episode. My great, great, great grandmother, Drusilla Doris Hendricks wrote her autobiography in the 1870's (when she was in her 70's). Here is her account of the "transfiguration" (which is not so dramatic as often presented): "It was not long before Sidney Rigdon called a meeting in order to present his claims to the presidency of the church. Some of the twelve had returned from their missions and the day their meeting was held and while it was in session Brigham Young, president of the Quorum of Apostles, and others slipped up to the stand but said nothing until Sidney Rigdon was through. The meeting was in a bowery. Then President Young began to speak. I jumped up to look and see if it was not Brother Joseph for surely it was his voice and gestures. Every Latter Day Saint could easily see upon whom the Priesthood descended for Brigham Young held the keys. Sidney Rigdon led off a few, but where are they now? They have dwindled away in unbelief and have come to naught.
As a religious person, a theologian and a ptsd patient: I guess looking at the social psychology is the brilliant way. John, I think you are really on the right track (although we will never know for sure). That’s exactly how memory works, in my experience, and it can have tremendous consequences.
As a young child, we ran across an rlds church and my dad told me about Brighams transfiguration. This story really made me disappointed and even gave me a strong dislike of Emma smith. I couldn’t believe that she started a new church when she knew that Brigham young was transfigured. I thought she was going against god. Now I understand that it was all just bullsh*t, but it’s interesting to me that this particular story made me so upset with Emma-I didn’t like her my entire time as a believing Mormon, and when relief society had their special Emma lessons and Emma activities, I hated them because I saw her as such a weak, unfaithful woman. Now that I know everything she went through, I feel bad for her and am disappointed in both her and Joseph and Brigham
Pretty sure Emma was torn as to what she had gotten herself into when she married JS. It was said she beat Eliza Snow with a broomstick when she caught JS in an embrace with ES on the 2nd floor of the Smith home causing Eliza to fall down a flight of stairs and have a miscarriage of JS' child.
Excellent, as always!! As for your intended writing of a book: It would be more work, but may be worth it to have a brief written version of things (each topic contained within a pamphlet length), but also have a longer version that is mentioned at the end of each subject that would direct an interested reader to more detailed info. It would be like the cliff's note version for those who are starting out, dipping their toes into church history, but hopefully would catch their interest for further exploration. That's certainly been my experience. I started out very tentatively as a TBM; but once I started down that path, it led to the long rabbit hole of neverending, shocking new pieces of evidence that I'd been bamboozled. .
What was that experiment where a volunteer was put in a group of actors. Their task was to compare straw lengths to determine which straw was the shortest. Initially, the volunteer correctly identified the shortest straw, but the actors in the group insisted that a straw that was clearly longer was the shortest one. Eventually, the volunteer came to agree with the group. It looks a little like this is happening here with religious devotion added to the mix.
Great content MSP team ... the audio goes south in the last 20min of the episode though. Its servicable, but not ideal ... I just mention it so that it can be figured out before affecting future episodes. Friends tell friends. 😁
There's a firsthand account by my great great grandmother, Barbara Ann Ewell Evans, wife of David Evans who was to become the mayor of Lehi. Here is what she wrote in her journal (which is included in The History of Lehi): I saw Joseph and Hyrum after their martyrdom. It was a solemn day among the Saints. We felt like a flock of sheep without a shepherd, but the Lord had another shepherd to lead his Saints. It was Brigham Young. I was present the day he was set apart to lead the Church. No Saint could dispute it, for it did seem when he spoke as though it was Joseph's own voice that was addressing us. I never shall forget that day nor how the Spirit of the Lord was poured out upon the people; it came so mild, yet so penetrating that every heart beat with joy to know we had a man of God to lead the Saints. Oh, what a consolation it was to know we were not forgotten." I'm not sure about "the day he was set apart to lead the Church" part, but who knows what kind of crowd hysteria could have created this phenomenon.
'for it did seem when he spoke as though it was Joseph's own voice that was addressing us' - I think it is just this sort of language which can refer to someone speaking in the same way, same message, same promise and hope as someone else to convince people he had the same calling etc. But away from the flowery way of 1800s writing someone decides it was literally Joseph's voice and not BY and then the story grows with the telling. I am sure it was a powerful moment for a distraught gathering to find a new shepherd who echoed the one the had faced so much for. No need for miracles to have spiritual moments
The second tower being hit was absolutely aired live. The first one, certainly not, but a lot of people actually saw it happen because they were in NY.
I believe some people pre press were recording as the first plane crashed, and this were gathered in and seen in lots of repeats and replays - so people did watch stuff live, they also saw the first plane hit on TV, but not the first plane live.
My great-great-great grand father joined the original church before Joseph Smith Jr died. He moved to the US right after Joseph’s death and Brigham Young’s group “found”/contacted him before he learned about Joseph Smith III being set aside as the next prophet. My family has quit a history of my great-great-great grand parents moving to Utah, being baptized again, going thru the temple, getting married to “seal” their marriage with a cloth between them (they didn’t know if they were really marrying each other again or if someone else was on the other side), having an angel of death assigned, escaping Utah, finding the RLDS church. I am technically a 7th generation Community of Christ/RLDS/LDS member but I have not attended in over 20 years & do not ascribe to their faith any more.
Have you considered that Father knew it would take a miraculous appearance like that to convince a very young church of divine leadership? I believe it was planned because of the lack of faith among members. Like you said, they were fracturing. A simple declaration by leaders wouldn't have been enough to pull everyone together. They needed a dramatic witness. They needed to firmly believe that Father was guiding them through His chosen prophet. They needed a strong conviction to make it through the hardships of being hunted and driven out of the country. Father did know. It was planned. I have learned through many personal experiences that Father never tells us the whole plan, and He often waits until the last minute to test our faith. I happen to greatly admire Brigham. He never wanted to be the prophet. He was a simple man who loved to work with his hands. He was rough and unrefined, a real common man. From what I've heard Joseph mentioned Brigham becoming the next prophet and Brigham told him he wasn't prophet material. So perhaps the vision was also for Brigham's sake as well. To confirm to him that he was indeed Father's choice. Father often has multiple reasons for what He does. I don't understand how people can survive this life without spiritual experiences! I have never felt that I was alone without the ability to gain answers and understanding directly from Father. It must be frustrating to have to rely on other people's testimonies.
I remember hearing this story when I was 9 and primary was still in the middle of the week after school. It was also in the church history year of seminary.
The second plane hit the tower on live TV indeed. Good Morning America. I remember Diane Sawyer talking about people not knowing what to make of it.... a plane hit one tower, programs were interrupted them BOOM! Second plane hit building on live TV
I first heard about the non-existence of this miracle when I read Michael Quinn's book "Origins of Power" and I was shocked but honestly the book had previously shocked me so many times (I lived 30 years as a TBM with a TBM brain) that by the time it got to the succession crisis I was used to receiving shocks.
Is there an episode with Mike’s story? I know he has mentioned how he started his deep dive but I would love to hear his journey as a convert to where he is now.
I read 5 journal entries that showed Brigham Young being transfigured into Joseph Smith. Now Oliver Cowdery did confirm that the true successor to Joseph Smith was Brigham Young.
@@llamamama2910 one name was Solomon Wixom and his was dated 08/10/1844. Fresh enough in his mind for his memory not to get corrupted. He wrote how it seemed as if Joseph Smith were speaking not Brigham Young and Brigham Young had taken on himself all the appearances and characteristics of Joseph Smith.
@@KingPoseidon02 That does not state transfiguration. Image a son grown up and being described as speaking just like his father, with all the same mannerisms and style of his father. We can know what is being expressed there without believing the son had miraculously transfigured during his speech.
@@helenr4300 actually it does give proof. The problem is when you try and destroy the faith of another, you tend to play with fire. People can show proof to discredit the authors of sedition.
I first heard about this in seminary, I was already a non believe by then. But I was told that come saw Brigham Young materialise into Jose Smith, others heard just his voice, and there we’re some that experienced neither
This reminds me of the New York City Ballet. George Balanchine hinted to several different men that they would take over directorship when he died. When Goerge did die, one of those men committed suicide out of anxiety over taking over. The ballet company had a board that made the final decision, but there were a lot of hard feelings, to this day there are, because of how vague the founder was about a successor.
As one of your ex-Catholic listeners this reminds me of the popular claim that the Virgin Mary appeared to a bunch of children in rural Portugal in 1917 to tell them some pretty apocalyptic stuff (also the sun danced around the sky to a crowd of spectators and allegedly even secular newspapers reported it but there’s no mention of it anywhere else), like Young’s transfiguration it should’ve been a huge event if it actually happened. Also I’m glad you brought up the New Testament and its evolution as in one videos of one of my favorite exvangelical TH-camrs, Paulogia, somebody brought up Young’s transfiguration and its seven year gap as a counter argument to Evangelical apologetics defending the gaps in the New Testament. So you’re right that these issues aren’t unique to Mormonism but the other texts Joseph added just makes the problems worse for them and again it was listening to Mormon apologists that convinced me that at worst apologetics is basically the art of defending the indefensible at worst.
We are watching a similar thing happen in real time with "the sound of Freedom". .... many feel like it's worth stretching the truth to promote a "good cause".
Lets also keep in mind that these people were not taught the scientific method and believed in folklore and treasure digging. These same people would tell "righteous" lamanites and black members that they could see their skin becoming lighter. We have people today who will swear to you that exorcisms and annointing holy oils to heal will work. "Miracles happen!"
Great episode, easy to look over and I like the emphasis you added to this issue. For modern day Mormonism to be true there's a chain of truths that need to be valid: Bible is at least inspired Joseph Smith translated BoM by god Brigham Young was the actual successor Modern day prophets are still inspired and have authority from God. A hole in anyone of those and the whole narrative crumbles
Freemasonry is not a cult; it doesn't fit the BITE model of cults. George Washington was a Freemason. Many people joined Freemasonry due to the good ideals it taught. The secret ceremony parts were just leftovers from the Guild days in medieval England.
Hey there guys, I'd like to know Nemo, Mike and John's opinion about the Bible's stories, I mean what do you guys think about Jesus' miracles written therein? Has all you've discovered on Mormonism changed your point of view about God and other Divine things? As you know all the stories that are found in the Bible lack lots of details that could weaken their credibility and I'm not asking you guys this to change your mind or anything like that, and I'm not talking on behalf of Mormonism either, I'm just curious about it.
Isn’t it obvious? They are secularists. They have bought into all the secularist’s theories about the Bible, like the documentary hypothesis, which has recently been proven to be wrong.
@@Mikha335 You're right about that one, I was just expecting them to be the ones to personally answer my questions, lol. Thank you for your comment though.😁
It is curious how miracles and prophesies have steadily declined as technology/communication has incresed. I ask my TBM associates where the prophesis are? Where are the miracles? There are 15 old men who claim to speak with God. Does God not reveal anything anymore? They can't even keep their ill gotten gains secret.
I hope you'll forgive me for posing a question regarding a completely unrelated episode... @Mormon Stories Podcast, perhaps it was three or so months ago when I was able to catch the show LIVE one afternoon when Steven Pynakker was the guest. I believe the topic was his personal life & faith journey but, I'm more so almost certain that it is the most recent show that he's been featured. I can not find the video in your TH-cam backlog and I am wondering if it has anything to do with the highly unanticipated one-time return of a 'particular' guest 'host'. After learning bits and pieces, via YT, of the story of how and when Jen 'whatshername's departure from MSP occurred, I was quite surprised to see her face in the studio that day... So, I guess my question doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of the episode itself but, it's really just my way of putting this out there; What and why in the bloody HELL was SHE doing there? Oh well, I don't think she had more than three or four comments, and that's including her 'hello' and 'goodbye' so, not too much to suffer through... But seriously, every episode in which I saw her adding ANY commentary left me viewing her as a glaring anachronism. I hope MSP has been able to finally cut the strings loose. Someone like that spins webs no spider ever could...
That is a very interesting episode ! Thanks to you guys I learnt much, love your discussions ! I am French, where can I found French stuff you spoke about at the end ? It would be so much more confortable for me to listen in my language😀
I remember being taught this and shown artists pictures of how this transfiguration looked......my response was "Huh?" But then I just glossed over it as another religious tall tale....like so many other tall tales.
There is definitely a trend of second leaders being extra authoritarian compared to founders (Judge Rutherford in JWs another example) I presume it needs someone with that sort of power once the chosen one is gone and before the group is fully institutionalised and structured. Maybe when no 2 is not that way things fade away so we don't hear about them
I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I don't remember hearing the story of BY's transfiguration when I was young. I read about it as a young adult in the 70s, but it was independent reading. I don't really remember hearing it at church until I was older. Maybe it wasn't something that was emphasized when I was young. Or maybe I wasn't listening.
At 55:00. The Saints book series is a whitewashed church version of Mormon history. They fail to deal adequately with the controversial topics and stay positive with history. There is nothing shocking in the discussion of church development and the text reads like it was written for high school students. It is hard to believe church historians with PhDs from the church historical department each wrote sections of the book.
How where people in England/ Wales convinced to convert? What was the convincing tale told? My great grand parents on bothe sides, including Jesse Knight Came to Utah from England in the late 1880's
Great question! My great grandparents came from Ireland and Sweden. I’ve always wondered the same thing, hopefully someone will have answers to this question.
@@MamaSea888 The United States of the 1800s was a fairytale to anyone living anywhere else. Stories of wide-open cheap or free land, promises of freedom begging you, a place to make a new life full of wonder, and plenty of resources. All you'd need is an excuse and the ship's fare to get there, and your on your way (Come to Zion!). The church made it easy by sponsoring many immigrants in order for them to pass through the ports of entry quickly.
Here’s one my wife as a teenager , was going to work at small cafe , she was having cramps, went to the kitchen and felt dizzy suddenly was on floor the cook was saying in question why were all butcher knives , on side table slots, all the knives around her body not one touched her! My wife was used to miracles in her family, not finding it odd at all ?
As a good rule of thumb, any faith-promoting Mormon story that sounds like something out of a fairy tale or fantasy adventure...is probably a fairy tale or fantasy. This story is just a variation of "The Sword in the Stone" where an enchantment is used to prove who the rightful heir to the throne is. If he had been inventive enough or had a good enough craftsman, Brigham probably could have come up with his own "sword in the stone" scenario. If I had been there, I would have advised Briggy to do a "Peepstone in the Hat" variation. All of the contenders to be the next Top Prophet, would be given the opportunity to pull Joseph's peepstone out of Joseph's hat, with the explanation given that only the successor approved by God would be able to do it. Unbeknownst to the other guys, the peepstone would be held firmly to the bottom of the hat by a hidden clamp that could be released by a hidden string. After the other guys flailed around, doing much damage to the hat, without being able to pull the peepstone out, Briggy would pull it out with the greatest of ease, knowing to pull the hidden string just before dramatically pulling out the rock and showing it off to the crowd, his thumb expertly concealing the clamping part that his buddy had embedded in the rock. (To ensure that none of the other contenders could destroy the hat and find the clamping device, the contenders would each have only one minute to try their hand and Hosea Stout would have been appointed as referee to ensure that nobody exceeded their allotted time and to prevent them from destroying the hat. In fact, the rules would be that if you tried to rip the stone out of the hat and tore the hat in the process, that was a sign that you were the Devil's pick.)
it is actually mocking God. God gave Moses the tablets that he wrote with his own finger. smith says he found tablets of gold. total mockery of the Father and abomination
The church never formally commented on it. The book of Mormon needs to be a movie ASAP. Such a fun show. There's an interview in Mormon Stories with one of the original cast members, and it's epic 😎
If they ever make a movie adaptation of the book of Mormon musical, I think it should be animated. That way they can still use the original cast. I would want to see it done in the style of those Richard Rich directed LDS cartoons from the 90s.
The church had a couple poster things up that said “you’ve watched the show, now read the book” and “the book is always better than the movie”, but never said anything official. General consensus among LDS that have watched it is that it isn’t that great (I mean it is kinda making fun of us), but since it’s not vehemently attacking us nobody really feels that strong against it.
I am always happy to evaluate as these gentlemen regarding discussions. I do wish all facts were evaluated Brigham Young is an interesting case when discussing succession in thecChurch i would like to hear a debate with yourselvescand T ravis Wayne Goodsell
@hbendzulla:. Many criminals do have psychological problems. And innumerable psychological problems are likewise caused by criminals. But not everyone who has been caused even mammoth psychological problems as result of suffering criminal harm then turns criminal.
@@hbendzulla8213 I was including that in my characterization of "criminal," (which MUST BE INTENTIONAL). Thanks for making more explicit. My basic point is that while "psychological problems" very often EXPLAIN some criminal behavior, that condition is never allowed to excuse it. On the other side, VICTIMS, who may well have such probs. & could indeed be EXCUSED for some subsequent identifiable behaviors there for, DO NOT ALWAYS do so.
Naricissism, sociopath, psychopath - definitely a case study of personality traits. For comparisson, that horrible Haight familicide in Enoch UT, he was narcissist
More than malleable, memory is completely reconstructed every time you remember something. You don't have a film with the images every thirtieth of a second or so, as you have in your video, you have a set of believed facts and generic images in your mind, and you remember by threading a line of thought through them. When you thread a wrong image, that image becomes a believed fact, and when you supposedly remember things in this thread you enhance the image, filling it with details that were not necessarily there in reality. So, when you believe you are remembering things you see the images right in front of you, as if you had photographed them, but they are a mix of good and bad reconstructions. If you try to remember what you had for breakfast, for example, you might remember that you had eggs, because you always have eggs for breakfast, but maybe this time you had no eggs, because you were in a hurry. You might remember that you had eggs, full with the actual image of the eggs, but forget that you did not, because it was not too important.
There is recorded video coverage of the first plane hitting. There was actually a group of firefighters being followed by a reporter of some kind when they heard and the saw the plane as the camera panned up to see it strike. It wasn’t live coverage though.
47:00 quick correction, W. Woodruff's journal didn't mention where O. Hyde was returning to navoo from, just that he did return on Aug. 13th. However, there is plenty other evidence that the event never happened as currently described, even reading W. Woodruff very long and detailed account of the speeches given on Aug. 8th betrays no mention of the transfiguration event, nor any second hand accounts of it.
Unlike Joseph Smith, Brigham Young needed the accolades and praise of men and women to satisfy his narcissistic compulsions. His tirades and hateful language against the family of Joseph Smith are so un-Christlike. He later in his 70's admits he never had a visit from Christ or an angel and seems to have been un-tempered by the Spirit.
I did not know any more of this story than the lie it has turned out to be. Since my primary years in 1968 I have been the recipient of a bogus story. Just one more nail in the coffin for me. Thanks you guys for the truth.
Also in the spring of 1844, Joseph met with nine of the Twelve Apostles and sealed, or conferred, upon them all of the priesthood keys necessary to carry on the Lord's work. Wasn't BY the president of the 12?
My grandfather heard this story at the knee of his great-grandmother. He was 24 and on his mission when she finally died. He reports that she was an eyewitness to the transfiguration. We do not have her words on this. We don't know if she claimed to be an eyewitness or if her detailed storytelling merely left him with the impression. But he was adamant she saw it with her own eyes. And I grew up believing that I had an ancestors eyewitness to this event.
What I now know - things that are readily researched on church sites and which I only learned as an adult: She was born in Staffordshire, England. Her parents and family joined the church, and came by boat to Nauvoo. From there, they walked to Salt Lake City as part of the first handcart company.
So, there's the rub: she arrived in Nauvoo in 1856. SHE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THE ACTUAL EVENT. Anything she reports about it is hearsay. And my grandfather's report is an additional step of hearsay removed from any original report.
Further, we have no way of determining what year she first heard the story, only that it had to have been before she first told my grandfather, which would have been circa 1915 - 1917.
So, this "eyewitness" account I grew up with turns out to not be very helpful at all.
They are both in HELL....
And where down the line did the 'eyewitness' claim emerge? Did she claim it, did he as a boy hear her tell the story and thought she was talking as if she was there? Were there other family members keen to assume/presume it? Fascinating example of the memory drift, and the generational effect.
@helenr4300 The fact that there are only three steps back to the "event" (me hearing it from my grandfather hearing it from his great-grandmother who heard it first) is remarkable. And we still got it wrong!
I love these episodes! It's the best gospel doctrine class I've ever attended! Really love the community I feel "attending" these!!
Gospel? Mormon scriptures, right? The gospel is the Bible everything else is perverted
The story I remember from primary was that Joseph Smith refused alcohol for surgery pain when he was a child- yet he drank throughout his life.
Yes. The implication was that Joseph Smith was such a special boy that he was practicing the Word of Wisdom more than 20 years before it was "revealed" to him. In reality, the more plausible reason is that he was afraid they would amputate his leg if he was not awake and alert enough to scream bloody murder if they tried.
Yes! I remember thinking that was such a Faith promoting story. Then, to find out he was drinking in the Carthage jail totally blew my mind.
@@Liz-hr6hf same!
They never tell the faith promoting story about how he shot a guy..
Yes, I remember the same.
**Has anyone else noticed that 7 years after Brigham took over the church would have been the same year that Joseph Smith the 3rd turned 18? Brigham would have needed a way to strengthen his positioning against the one person he probably saw as his most significant threat to his power. Pushing a miracle story and backdating sources would have been a very Brigham thing to do.
😮
It wasn't Brigham who saw the vision, it was hundreds of people. So He wouldn't have been aware of how it appeared to them. Brigham didn't seek the position as prophet, so he wouldn't be pushing anything. Everyone had a choice as to who to follow. Brigham would have much rather been able to go back to carpentry. He loved to build things and even hated wearing a suit. He was rough around the edges, but never pushy unless directing a building project.
This transfiguration dive is going to blow some people away. This is a “story” all members have been told repeatedly in Sunday school. It’s is a prime example that if you repeat a lie enough times … it becomes “true”.
However a closer look at the historical facts will show ONCE AGAIN that the LDS church is not exactly what it proclaims to be
Sit back folks. This episode is going to be a shocker
That was what Adolf Hitler said.
i have never heard this story in my life
It is the truth that what Adolf Hitler said, to the German the population about the Jews in the 1930's and 40's
Indoctrination is powerful and difficult to break because this is ingrained since childhood as the brain developes. Study the nueroscience on our brain and our learning stages. It's why I agree with China's stance that religion isn't allowed to be taught to children, only adults so they can they choose if they want to participate.
@@princessadoraMe either. And I bet most Mormons haven’t.
I have NEVER heard of any of this - great LDS Discussions episode as always. Thank you Mike for the incredible deep dive and thank you John for giving him a platform!
I haven’t heard it either. I must have not paid very good attention in Sunday School!
I asked my mom when I was home if she had heard of this, and she told me this is how she knew that the sect that followed Young following Smith’s death was still the “true church”. I was so surprised she had heard of it
You guys made me think of the primary song: Follow the profits, follow the profits, follow the profits... 🎶
I like that you include and then go beyond what this says about LDS prophetic succession claims, to discuss the implications regarding the malliability of human memory, and the evolution of miracle stories within religious or political communities. LDS history is very valuable for these kinds of insights!
This was a battle cry for the acceptance of Brigham Young and all the other break-offs, including the RLDS (Community of Christ). You’ve got to have something substantial when you claim to be The One True Church! As for the books Saints, as well as all of the Church Manuals for Sunday School, they never give the original references. The references they site are to other current publications. When you go back to the original sources, like Wilford Woodruff who wrote in his journal everyday for 70 + years. The bottom line is, the LDS Church lies and edits its history and doctrines. Fooled me for over 50 years until I finally got access to unedited original documents and journals.
I ve heard this story began to being told after Joseph Smith the 3rd began to gather the RLDS movement. And he actually resembles a lot to his father Joseph Smith Jr, this plus JS 3rd was coming back to Independence Missouri or the Promised land in the 1850s.
Please tell us where to find original writings of old journals or first BOM.
@@MrChilli26 Look up historian Dan Vogel.
I would love an episode and a deep dive into the missionary program! I’ve read that the program is research based. It’s use of psychological techniques are from some BYU professors. The total control of the life of the missionary for a length of time. The damage it can do. I’m experiencing this from the emails from a missionary out in the field. I’m not LDS, but as a non psychologist but a teacher; I’m feeling this brainwashing of this young man in real time. He sadly has no clue. 😢
I really think that even if the church doesn’t pass the “Cult” test, a mission Definitely does! These kids are controlled so completely it is very unhealthy.
Our 2 sons who served missions both testified that the most important thing they learned on their mission was “exact obedience”. Looking back that really gives me the creeps. It has a real North Korea vibe to it.
The most important thing I have learned is how important critical thinking is! It’s the complete opposite of exact obedience.
John talks about the BITE model of control in other episodes. Control of Behavior, Information, Thought, Emotions.
My great grandmother and great great grandmother were in the travels with Brigham Young from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City. I am fascinated by all of this. My mom did not raise me Mormon, but I learned a lot from my oh so devout Grandmother...I learn more and more every day about all of this!
All of my family tree is recorded in the genealogy that are recorded in which the church kept such records.
I am very late to discovering this series of LDS Discussions, but as a recovering Mormon, I am finding these discussions to be endlessly fascinating!!! I find myself boggled at how much of this I did not know (I wonder why...), and they reinforce the decision I made years ago to leave the LDS faith.
My thanks to all of you responsible for putting this content, which I deem required listening regardless of your status in the LDS Church.
I swear, a docuseries set in the time Joseph Smith starting the church, with flashbacks to his childhood/ younger events of significance, based on LDS discussions research would be absolutely must watch incredible, for anyone, member or not
That would be a fascinating watch! Even for people who have no previous information on the religion.
Yes a perfect example of steel armed twisting enforced by the council of 50...who would want to buck Porter Rockwell,Lot Smith or Bill Hickman...totally opposite Jesus sayings,"he who will be first shall be last"...no servant mentality here.
Great comparison to Vladimir Putin!
I thought this always happened - Tommy turned into Gordie, Russell transfigured into Tommy, and Dallin is ready to transfigure into anything and everything that may get in his way.
Dallin is the final boss 😂
Yes, or maybe just until Denver decides to transfigure into Dallin.
Into McGonagall herself.
The rock in the sorting hat lol.. something tells me Joseph Smith would be a slytherin.
35:32 Another example of this group memory dynamic is the case where Babe Ruth is said to have pointed into the field during the World Series in 1932 indicating that he would hit the ball after striking out twice. Most people remember him pointing, but there were also many who said he didn’t point. The biggest issue is that if you add up the number of people who said they were there, that number is far over the seating capacity of the stadium. There definitely is a desire to be a part of something important. And it’s usually after a fair amount of time, allowing many people to inject themselves into the event while blurring the ability to fact check if looking.
So impressed by all of you and the tremendous amount of time you devote to enlighten us. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!
I am 73 and was born into the Mormon church. My mother told me many early church stories but I’ve never heard this one.
Reading the “The Work and the Glory” books back in the early 2000s was the second big crack in my faith…the first big crack was in seminary and studying the D&C.
If it wasn’t for this issue I don’t know where my faith would be right now. I was listening to saints about 16 months ago because I was bored of listening to the scriptures and I wanted to listen to something that made me feel the spirit. As I listened and realized that there was not a laying on of hands to hand down the keys I was very taken aback. Thanks to my curiosity and your podcast I am in a much better place now. I don’t feel guilty for listening to rap music instead of the scriptures anymore😂
😂😂😂
At 58:07. If dozens of people witnessed the transfiguration why would they not write it down. Saints were notorious for writing in journals and letters any spiritual experience they had that day or week. Like many historical events in the church we have to rely on accounts written several months or years after the fact and be expected to accept these accounts as accurate facts.
they did write it down, that's why these discussions are so beyond silly."Like many historical events in the church we have to rely on accounts written several months or years after the fact and be expected to accept these accounts as accurate facts." that could easily be said about literally every historically significant event
I also heard when JS died there was a movement that formed among the Saints. The sense of incredulity of the martyrdom of JS lead Saints to believe he would come back to life similar to Jesus Christ was resurrected. This was a belief held for a couple years after his death and one reason why succession to Brigham Young was delayed.
I think I've heard this somewhere. Is there any evidence this was a belief?
@@debbieshrubb1222Historians have records of these beliefs among members and people close to JS after he died. Mostly through journal entries and letters found in archives.
Thank you so much for this episode!
I ran across some contradicting information a few months ago and kept wondering about it. But then never seemed to find time to really investigate this topic. Thanks for doing that for me 😜
Another topic I‘m interested in is the Kirtland Temple dedication.
I’ve read some reports that say that Joseph Smith told them all to fast for a day, and then gave them tons of liquor at the event, Joseph Smith Sen. throwing up like crazy, people „speaking in tongues“ and all.
And then, there is, of course, Joseph Smith‘s version of the event with Jesus and lots of angels appearing 🤪
Please do an episode on this topic, if you haven’t already.
I haven’t been able to find a good video about it yet.
They did an episode on this and it was exactly what you're talking about!
@@Goobersnobber47 which one is it?
@@mgeuleinstsear I believe it was the one about the melchezidek preisthood.
@@Goobersnobber47 I think I heard that it was mentioned, but I feel like it needs a whole episode itself. I would love to hear more about what people who were there wrote in their journals.
This story was indeed more miraculous than the 1874 story out of Provo, Utah of the sky falling and how it was stopped by a shepherd boy who quit drinking coffee and paid an 11% tithing. Unfortunately, the story was not recorded until 1896.
Never heard that one
Its always the time line that does the most damage to a faithful reading of the facts around the LDS claims.
The first vision, the priesthood restoration, this transfiguration incident, josephs polygamy ... all of it is just so transparently self serving when you examine the time lines of these things.
The time lines are fatal to reaching the faithful conclusion, which is why the church and its apologists go way out of their way to break up people's understanding into disconnected epidodes instead of enabling folks to see the overarching picture all at once.
Good job MSP team for painting the whole picture so that the flaws have no cracks to hide in. 👍
I think "needing people to feel the spirit" during this discussion should simply be called what it is, emotional manipulation.
Crucial philosophy homework: must read David Hume’s “Of Miracles.”
So glad to see this back!!
Been doing family history research with a focus on my grandparents who joined the church and emigrated to Utah... and I found this in one of their histories:
"John, Elizabeth and their children were present at the special conference called to appoint a new leader for the Church. Sidney Rigdon, being Joseph’s first counselor felt he should lead the Church. There was a terrible feeling when he told this to the congregation. When Brigham Young, the President of the Twelve Apostles, arose and told the audience that by order of the priesthood it was he who would lead the Church, a sweet holy feeling came over them. They testified that he looked and sounded like the prophet. They saw a halo about him." John Utley and Elizabeth Rutledge Utley, Elizabeth died at Winter Quarters, and John remarried after settling in Toole, UT.
Listening to this podcast, I'm imagining a freeze frame of Brigham Young saying "you're probably wondering how I got here" like in a movie.😊
I think this is a great episode and I've been looking forward to it! I was taught the historicized transfiguration of Brigham Young right out of the teachings of the presidents of the church manuals. That's how important this is! It was only then that I learned about break off group's other than the flds. Since then I've done a lot of my own research and am investigating Community of Christ.
I want to push back on one point on time stamp 1:15:50. The line where it says "-The first vision account..."
In the line it talks about contemporary sources of Joseph smith claiming to see Jesus and falling down and what not after hearing these great revival preachers, compared to the 1832 account. That's certainly true. But it's wrong to contrast that with the later accounts of the 2 personages. Here's my reasoning. Richard Bushman in his biography Rough Stone Rolling points out at least 3 examples of preachers or religious movement starters who saw both God the father and Jesus Christ in their visions prior to 1820. So it's not wrong to say that Joseph Smith's story evolved, I just want to point out that the idea of both God and Jesus appearing in the vision would have been available to Joseph Smith's zieghtgiest prior to the 1832 account.
I'm not trying to say it's a false argument that you are making as you covered it in the first vision episode, but maybe an oversight. Although I feel that the argument being made in this slide is the omission of the contemporary pre 1832 accounts of both God and Jesus. Am I making sense?
I agree with John that "feeling the spirit" is the ultimate question. The church wants us to follow our feelings. This is just an extreme case of confirmation bias. Who doesn't want to be the knower/bringer of the ultimate truth? Who doesn't want to be one of the "elect"? Who doesn't want secret knowledge that almost no one in the world has? We feel these feelings because we want it to be true because that means that we are special. Feelings are definitely not a good indication of "right" decisions. People only remember when the spirit prompts them to do something and it works out but not when things do not work out and was simply a bad decision.
Are you guys planning on covering Joseph Smiths Presidential race?
I gotchu, I can make it quick. Homeboy was tired of getting kicked out and threatened from state to state, so he tried becoming president to stop it. He didn’t win, and nothing really came out of it other than the idea that Mormons were trying to take over the country.
Love to see the LDS Church turn Halloween into one big Transfiguration Party.
I absolutely believed this story growing up!
I DID see live coverage. They had cameras on the towers just after the first plane went in, and we saw the second plane fly into the screen... I remember distinctly because I was telling my son it was an accident, until that moment, and I literally said, "oh, they are doing this on purpose. "
For sure, it happened on live tv.the first one got everyone watching.
Hundred percent. I was a Jr in high school and we were talking about the first plane hitting the world trade center.
Then in our first class my teacher had the news in and we watched the second plane hit and we knew it was not an accident.
Then we saw them both fall very much live. I'll never be able to forget that.
My son was not yet 6... that was a conversation, trying to explain terrorism to a young boy.
@@PennyLyonMy daughter was exactly six. That was a long series of conversations.
There are recordings of the first plane hitting but there was a brief delay to get all the TV news broadcasting events live. So we did see live coverage, just not the very first bit; and we did see footage of the first plane, but not live (they didn't have a reason to drop all programming at first)
Memory of the shock and trauma of the whole thing playing out much of in real time, and then repeated replays merge is our memories
Joining just after LIVE. But great to see THE MIKE and Nemo back. Would love to hear Nemo after he actually studied real Bible. Some- times the FORENSIC approach to this document is the only one that will do!! Even - or especially - with a great weight of "skepticism.". Thanks for what I'm sure will be a "REALLY BIG SHEW"! 💜💜💜
Thank-you for this episode. My great, great, great grandmother, Drusilla Doris Hendricks wrote her autobiography in the 1870's (when she was in her 70's). Here is her account of the "transfiguration" (which is not so dramatic as often presented): "It was not long before Sidney Rigdon called a meeting in order to present his claims to the presidency of the church. Some of the twelve had returned from their missions and the day their meeting was held and while it was in session Brigham Young, president of the Quorum of Apostles, and others slipped up to the stand but said nothing until Sidney Rigdon was through. The meeting was in a bowery. Then President Young began to speak. I jumped up to look and see if it was not Brother Joseph for surely it was his voice and gestures. Every Latter Day Saint could easily see upon whom the Priesthood descended for Brigham Young held the keys. Sidney Rigdon led off a few, but where are they now? They have dwindled away in unbelief
and have come to naught.
As a religious person, a theologian and a ptsd patient: I guess looking at the social psychology is the brilliant way. John, I think you are really on the right track (although we will never know for sure). That’s exactly how memory works, in my experience, and it can have tremendous consequences.
As a young child, we ran across an rlds church and my dad told me about Brighams transfiguration. This story really made me disappointed and even gave me a strong dislike of Emma smith. I couldn’t believe that she started a new church when she knew that Brigham young was transfigured. I thought she was going against god. Now I understand that it was all just bullsh*t, but it’s interesting to me that this particular story made me so upset with Emma-I didn’t like her my entire time as a believing Mormon, and when relief society had their special Emma lessons and Emma activities, I hated them because I saw her as such a weak, unfaithful woman. Now that I know everything she went through, I feel bad for her and am disappointed in both her and Joseph and Brigham
Pretty sure Emma was torn as to what she had gotten herself into when she married JS. It was said she beat Eliza Snow with a broomstick when she caught JS in an embrace with ES on the 2nd floor of the Smith home causing Eliza to fall down a flight of stairs and have a miscarriage of JS' child.
Excellent, as always!! As for your intended writing of a book: It would be more work, but may be worth it to have a brief written version of things (each topic contained within a pamphlet length), but also have a longer version that is mentioned at the end of each subject that would direct an interested reader to more detailed info. It would be like the cliff's note version for those who are starting out, dipping their toes into church history, but hopefully would catch their interest for further exploration.
That's certainly been my experience. I started out very tentatively as a TBM; but once I started down that path, it led to the long rabbit hole of neverending, shocking new pieces of evidence that I'd been bamboozled. .
I think Mike's website is these episodes in essay form = these MSP episodes are a version of the original essaies
I like the discussion about group think dynamics. I would be interested in the Restoration period in Utah Territory be discussed
What was that experiment where a volunteer was put in a group of actors. Their task was to compare straw lengths to determine which straw was the shortest. Initially, the volunteer correctly identified the shortest straw, but the actors in the group insisted that a straw that was clearly longer was the shortest one. Eventually, the volunteer came to agree with the group. It looks a little like this is happening here with religious devotion added to the mix.
Great content MSP team ... the audio goes south in the last 20min of the episode though. Its servicable, but not ideal ... I just mention it so that it can be figured out before affecting future episodes.
Friends tell friends. 😁
There's a firsthand account by my great great grandmother, Barbara Ann Ewell Evans, wife of David Evans who was to become the mayor of Lehi. Here is what she wrote in her journal (which is included in The History of Lehi): I saw Joseph and Hyrum after their martyrdom. It was a solemn day among the Saints. We felt like a flock of sheep without a shepherd, but the Lord had another shepherd to lead his Saints. It was Brigham Young. I was present the day he was set apart to lead the Church. No Saint could dispute it, for it did seem when he spoke as though it was Joseph's own voice that was addressing us. I never shall forget that day nor how the Spirit of the Lord was poured out upon the people; it came so mild, yet so penetrating that every heart beat with joy to know we had a man of God to lead the Saints. Oh, what a consolation it was to know we were not forgotten." I'm not sure about "the day he was set apart to lead the Church" part, but who knows what kind of crowd hysteria could have created this phenomenon.
'for it did seem when he spoke as though it was Joseph's own voice that was addressing us' - I think it is just this sort of language which can refer to someone speaking in the same way, same message, same promise and hope as someone else to convince people he had the same calling etc. But away from the flowery way of 1800s writing someone decides it was literally Joseph's voice and not BY and then the story grows with the telling. I am sure it was a powerful moment for a distraught gathering to find a new shepherd who echoed the one the had faced so much for. No need for miracles to have spiritual moments
Good point! @@helenr4300
Can you imagine Bednar transfiguring into Uchtdorf? Or better yet Sheri Dew -- that might start dormant volcanoes to start erupting.....
I heard this sorry in the sixties. I never gave it much thought at the time. It sounds ridiculous now.
The second tower being hit was absolutely aired live. The first one, certainly not, but a lot of people actually saw it happen because they were in NY.
I believe some people pre press were recording as the first plane crashed, and this were gathered in and seen in lots of repeats and replays - so people did watch stuff live, they also saw the first plane hit on TV, but not the first plane live.
My great-great-great grand father joined the original church before Joseph Smith Jr died. He moved to the US right after Joseph’s death and Brigham Young’s group “found”/contacted him before he learned about Joseph Smith III being set aside as the next prophet.
My family has quit a history of my great-great-great grand parents moving to Utah, being baptized again, going thru the temple, getting married to “seal” their marriage with a cloth between them (they didn’t know if they were really marrying each other again or if someone else was on the other side), having an angel of death assigned, escaping Utah, finding the RLDS church.
I am technically a 7th generation Community of Christ/RLDS/LDS member but I have not attended in over 20 years & do not ascribe to their faith any more.
I read somewhere that Brigham was known for mimicking Joseph and doing it quite well.
Have you considered that Father knew it would take a miraculous appearance like that to convince a very young church of divine leadership? I believe it was planned because of the lack of faith among members. Like you said, they were fracturing. A simple declaration by leaders wouldn't have been enough to pull everyone together. They needed a dramatic witness. They needed to firmly believe that Father was guiding them through His chosen prophet. They needed a strong conviction to make it through the hardships of being hunted and driven out of the country. Father did know. It was planned. I have learned through many personal experiences that Father never tells us the whole plan, and He often waits until the last minute to test our faith. I happen to greatly admire Brigham. He never wanted to be the prophet. He was a simple man who loved to work with his hands. He was rough and unrefined, a real common man. From what I've heard Joseph mentioned Brigham becoming the next prophet and Brigham told him he wasn't prophet material. So perhaps the vision was also for Brigham's sake as well. To confirm to him that he was indeed Father's choice. Father often has multiple reasons for what He does. I don't understand how people can survive this life without spiritual experiences! I have never felt that I was alone without the ability to gain answers and understanding directly from Father. It must be frustrating to have to rely on other people's testimonies.
Lots of great research and details in todays episode. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I remember hearing this story when I was 9 and primary was still in the middle of the week after school. It was also in the church history year of seminary.
Thank you much for always making sure we never Mormons understand can the terminology.❤
The second plane hit the tower on live TV indeed. Good Morning America. I remember Diane Sawyer talking about people not knowing what to make of it.... a plane hit one tower, programs were interrupted them BOOM! Second plane hit building on live TV
I first heard about the non-existence of this miracle when I read Michael Quinn's book "Origins of Power" and I was shocked but honestly the book had previously shocked me so many times (I lived 30 years as a TBM with a TBM brain) that by the time it got to the succession crisis I was used to receiving shocks.
I remember back in late 60's early 70's being told and reading about it.
Is there an episode with Mike’s story? I know he has mentioned how he started his deep dive but I would love to hear his journey as a convert to where he is now.
I read 5 journal entries that showed Brigham Young being transfigured into Joseph Smith. Now Oliver Cowdery did confirm that the true successor to Joseph Smith was Brigham Young.
Who were the journal entries
@@llamamama2910 one name was Solomon Wixom and his was dated 08/10/1844. Fresh enough in his mind for his memory not to get corrupted. He wrote how it seemed as if Joseph Smith were speaking not Brigham Young and Brigham Young had taken on himself all the appearances and characteristics of Joseph Smith.
@@KingPoseidon02 That does not state transfiguration. Image a son grown up and being described as speaking just like his father, with all the same mannerisms and style of his father. We can know what is being expressed there without believing the son had miraculously transfigured during his speech.
@@helenr4300 actually it does give proof. The problem is when you try and destroy the faith of another, you tend to play with fire. People can show proof to discredit the authors of sedition.
My great great grandfather’s account in his journal states that BY didn’t look any different but he was speaking in the voice of JS.
Oh wow.. now I remember this story.
This was excellent
I first heard about this in seminary, I was already a non believe by then. But I was told that come saw Brigham Young materialise into Jose Smith, others heard just his voice, and there we’re some that experienced neither
This reminds me of the New York City Ballet. George Balanchine hinted to several different men that they would take over directorship when he died. When Goerge did die, one of those men committed suicide out of anxiety over taking over. The ballet company had a board that made the final decision, but there were a lot of hard feelings, to this day there are, because of how vague the founder was about a successor.
As one of your ex-Catholic listeners this reminds me of the popular claim that the Virgin Mary appeared to a bunch of children in rural Portugal in 1917 to tell them some pretty apocalyptic stuff (also the sun danced around the sky to a crowd of spectators and allegedly even secular newspapers reported it but there’s no mention of it anywhere else), like Young’s transfiguration it should’ve been a huge event if it actually happened.
Also I’m glad you brought up the New Testament and its evolution as in one videos of one of my favorite exvangelical TH-camrs, Paulogia, somebody brought up Young’s transfiguration and its seven year gap as a counter argument to Evangelical apologetics defending the gaps in the New Testament. So you’re right that these issues aren’t unique to Mormonism but the other texts Joseph added just makes the problems worse for them and again it was listening to Mormon apologists that convinced me that at worst apologetics is basically the art of defending the indefensible at worst.
We are watching a similar thing happen in real time with "the sound of Freedom".
.... many feel like it's worth stretching the truth to promote a "good cause".
My concern is with the children’s safety and aftercare
Lets also keep in mind that these people were not taught the scientific method and believed in folklore and treasure digging.
These same people would tell "righteous" lamanites and black members that they could see their skin becoming lighter.
We have people today who will swear to you that exorcisms and annointing holy oils to heal will work.
"Miracles happen!"
Lovely! Mine are starting to bloom as well.
Yay! I LoOoOoVE learning about my 3rd great grandpa. 😅🙃
Great episode, easy to look over and I like the emphasis you added to this issue.
For modern day Mormonism to be true there's a chain of truths that need to be valid:
Bible is at least inspired
Joseph Smith translated BoM by god
Brigham Young was the actual successor
Modern day prophets are still inspired and have authority from God.
A hole in anyone of those and the whole narrative crumbles
John, would you please do a story on what exactly do free masons believe. Is masonry a cult? We would like to learn about them.
Yes it's a cult... Dr Walter Martin does great work in describing cults and the goal of his life bringing people to the real Jesus and correct gospel
Freemasonry is not a cult; it doesn't fit the BITE model of cults. George Washington was a Freemason. Many people joined Freemasonry due to the good ideals it taught. The secret ceremony parts were just leftovers from the Guild days in medieval England.
Hey there guys, I'd like to know Nemo, Mike and John's opinion about the Bible's stories, I mean what do you guys think about Jesus' miracles written therein? Has all you've discovered on Mormonism changed your point of view about God and other Divine things? As you know all the stories that are found in the Bible lack lots of details that could weaken their credibility and I'm not asking you guys this to change your mind or anything like that, and I'm not talking on behalf of Mormonism either, I'm just curious about it.
Isn’t it obvious? They are secularists. They have bought into all the secularist’s theories about the Bible, like the documentary hypothesis, which has recently been proven to be wrong.
@@Mikha335 You're right about that one, I was just expecting them to be the ones to personally answer my questions, lol. Thank you for your comment though.😁
It is curious how miracles and prophesies have steadily declined as technology/communication has incresed. I ask my TBM associates where the prophesis are? Where are the miracles? There are 15 old men who claim to speak with God. Does God not reveal anything anymore? They can't even keep their ill gotten gains secret.
I hope you'll forgive me for posing a question regarding a completely unrelated episode... @Mormon Stories Podcast, perhaps it was three or so months ago when I was able to catch the show LIVE one afternoon when Steven Pynakker was the guest. I believe the topic was his personal life & faith journey but, I'm more so almost certain that it is the most recent show that he's been featured. I can not find the video in your TH-cam backlog and I am wondering if it has anything to do with the highly unanticipated one-time return of a 'particular' guest 'host'. After learning bits and pieces, via YT, of the story of how and when Jen 'whatshername's departure from MSP occurred, I was quite surprised to see her face in the studio that day... So, I guess my question doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of the episode itself but, it's really just my way of putting this out there; What and why in the bloody HELL was SHE doing there? Oh well, I don't think she had more than three or four comments, and that's including her 'hello' and 'goodbye' so, not too much to suffer through... But seriously, every episode in which I saw her adding ANY commentary left me viewing her as a glaring anachronism. I hope MSP has been able to finally cut the strings loose. Someone like that spins webs no spider ever could...
That is a very interesting episode ! Thanks to you guys I learnt much, love your discussions ! I am French, where can I found French stuff you spoke about at the end ? It would be so much more confortable for me to listen in my language😀
I remember being taught this and shown artists pictures of how this transfiguration looked......my response was "Huh?" But then I just glossed over it as another religious tall tale....like so many other tall tales.
Brigham Young is the David Miscavige of L. Ron Hubbards...
There is definitely a trend of second leaders being extra authoritarian compared to founders (Judge Rutherford in JWs another example) I presume it needs someone with that sort of power once the chosen one is gone and before the group is fully institutionalised and structured. Maybe when no 2 is not that way things fade away so we don't hear about them
I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I don't remember hearing the story of BY's transfiguration when I was young. I read about it as a young adult in the 70s, but it was independent reading. I don't really remember hearing it at church until I was older. Maybe it wasn't something that was emphasized when I was young. Or maybe I wasn't listening.
Do you have a son named Roy?
@@Mikha335 No.
At 55:00. The Saints book series is a whitewashed church version of Mormon history. They fail to deal adequately with the controversial topics and stay positive with history. There is nothing shocking in the discussion of church development and the text reads like it was written for high school students. It is hard to believe church historians with PhDs from the church historical department each wrote sections of the book.
How where people in England/ Wales convinced to convert?
What was the convincing tale told?
My great grand parents on bothe sides, including Jesse Knight
Came to Utah from England in the late 1880's
Great question! My great grandparents came from Ireland and Sweden. I’ve always wondered the same thing, hopefully someone will have answers to this question.
Probably the same way anyone else was convinced, I would assume.
@@MamaSea888 The United States of the 1800s was a fairytale to anyone living anywhere else. Stories of wide-open cheap or free land, promises of freedom begging you, a place to make a new life full of wonder, and plenty of resources. All you'd need is an excuse and the ship's fare to get there, and your on your way (Come to Zion!). The church made it easy by sponsoring many immigrants in order for them to pass through the ports of entry quickly.
Do the British need a different convincing from everyone else?
Here’s one my wife as a teenager , was going to work at small cafe , she was having cramps, went to the kitchen and felt dizzy suddenly was on floor the cook was saying in question why were all butcher knives , on side table slots, all the knives around her body not one touched her! My wife was used to miracles in her family, not finding it odd at all ?
As a good rule of thumb, any faith-promoting Mormon story that sounds like something out of a fairy tale or fantasy adventure...is probably a fairy tale or fantasy. This story is just a variation of "The Sword in the Stone" where an enchantment is used to prove who the rightful heir to the throne is. If he had been inventive enough or had a good enough craftsman, Brigham probably could have come up with his own "sword in the stone" scenario.
If I had been there, I would have advised Briggy to do a "Peepstone in the Hat" variation.
All of the contenders to be the next Top Prophet, would be given the opportunity to pull Joseph's peepstone out of Joseph's hat, with the explanation given that only the successor approved by God would be able to do it.
Unbeknownst to the other guys, the peepstone would be held firmly to the bottom of the hat by a hidden clamp that could be released by a hidden string. After the other guys flailed around, doing much damage to the hat, without being able to pull the peepstone out, Briggy would pull it out with the greatest of ease, knowing to pull the hidden string just before dramatically pulling out the rock and showing it off to the crowd, his thumb expertly concealing the clamping part that his buddy had embedded in the rock.
(To ensure that none of the other contenders could destroy the hat and find the clamping device, the contenders would each have only one minute to try their hand and Hosea Stout would have been appointed as referee to ensure that nobody exceeded their allotted time and to prevent them from destroying the hat. In fact, the rules would be that if you tried to rip the stone out of the hat and tore the hat in the process, that was a sign that you were the Devil's pick.)
it is actually mocking God. God gave Moses the tablets that he wrote with his own finger. smith says he found tablets of gold. total mockery of the Father and abomination
What does the church think about the broadway play The Book of Mormon? It was insane!
The church never formally commented on it. The book of Mormon needs to be a movie ASAP. Such a fun show. There's an interview in Mormon Stories with one of the original cast members, and it's epic 😎
@@sallyostling I need to watch that episode. Thanks!
If they ever make a movie adaptation of the book of Mormon musical, I think it should be animated. That way they can still use the original cast. I would want to see it done in the style of those Richard Rich directed LDS cartoons from the 90s.
The church had a couple poster things up that said “you’ve watched the show, now read the book” and “the book is always better than the movie”, but never said anything official. General consensus among LDS that have watched it is that it isn’t that great (I mean it is kinda making fun of us), but since it’s not vehemently attacking us nobody really feels that strong against it.
I am always happy to evaluate as these gentlemen regarding discussions. I do wish all facts were evaluated Brigham Young is an interesting case when discussing succession in thecChurch i would like to hear a debate with yourselvescand T ravis Wayne Goodsell
These men are speaking the oddly paradoxical gospel truth
Are there any episodes on history of Brigham Young?
Brigham Young, in my opinion had a big psychological problem.
@hbendzulla:. Many criminals do have psychological problems. And innumerable psychological problems are likewise caused by criminals. But not everyone who has been caused even mammoth psychological problems as result of suffering criminal harm then turns criminal.
@@sheliabryant3997 they might no turn out to become a criminal but they will cause psychological and possibly physical harm. 🤔
@@hbendzulla8213 I was including that in my characterization of "criminal," (which MUST BE INTENTIONAL). Thanks for making more explicit. My basic point is that while "psychological problems" very often EXPLAIN some criminal behavior, that condition is never allowed to excuse it. On the other side, VICTIMS, who may well have such probs. & could indeed be EXCUSED for some subsequent identifiable behaviors there for, DO NOT ALWAYS do so.
Naricissism, sociopath, psychopath - definitely a case study of personality traits.
For comparisson, that horrible Haight familicide in Enoch UT, he was narcissist
@@carsi7282 and that’s still mildly put
More than malleable, memory is completely reconstructed every time you remember something. You don't have a film with the images every thirtieth of a second or so, as you have in your video, you have a set of believed facts and generic images in your mind, and you remember by threading a line of thought through them. When you thread a wrong image, that image becomes a believed fact, and when you supposedly remember things in this thread you enhance the image, filling it with details that were not necessarily there in reality. So, when you believe you are remembering things you see the images right in front of you, as if you had photographed them, but they are a mix of good and bad reconstructions.
If you try to remember what you had for breakfast, for example, you might remember that you had eggs, because you always have eggs for breakfast, but maybe this time you had no eggs, because you were in a hurry. You might remember that you had eggs, full with the actual image of the eggs, but forget that you did not, because it was not too important.
Transfiguration from Joseph Smith to Jonh Rockefeller $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
This is the show it was on
There is recorded video coverage of the first plane hitting. There was actually a group of firefighters being followed by a reporter of some kind when they heard and the saw the plane as the camera panned up to see it strike. It wasn’t live coverage though.
I liked hearing you say DR. JOHN Dehlin
47:00 quick correction, W. Woodruff's journal didn't mention where O. Hyde was returning to navoo from, just that he did return on Aug. 13th. However, there is plenty other evidence that the event never happened as currently described, even reading W. Woodruff very long and detailed account of the speeches given on Aug. 8th betrays no mention of the transfiguration event, nor any second hand accounts of it.
Unlike Joseph Smith, Brigham Young needed the accolades and praise of men and women to satisfy his narcissistic compulsions. His tirades and hateful language against the family of Joseph Smith are so un-Christlike. He later in his 70's admits he never had a visit from Christ or an angel and seems to have been un-tempered by the Spirit.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Transfiguration?
I did not know any more of this story than the lie it has turned out to be. Since my primary years in 1968 I have been the recipient of a bogus story. Just one more nail in the coffin for me. Thanks you guys for the truth.
I thought Joseph gave the keys to leadership to the 12. "The keys that would never rust".
My Great Great Grandmother witnessed the transformation at Nauvoo in 1844
Lol i never heard this before. His face transformed into Joseph smiths? Holy shit that is hillarious, give me a break
Brigham young in an 1855 sermon denounced Joseph.
Source?
Also in the spring of 1844, Joseph met with nine of the Twelve Apostles and sealed, or conferred, upon them all of the priesthood keys necessary to carry on the Lord's work. Wasn't BY the president of the 12?