Deconstructing Christian Morality: Obedience or Genuine Ethics?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- Can Christians make a case for objective moral values? If objective moral values exist, do they come from the Christian god? Is Christian morality genuine ethics or blind obedience?
Please keep in mind that all everything I say here is my subjective opinion, and is intended to deconstruct fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative Christian ideologies from an ex christian perspective
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tags | Ex christian, deconstructing christianity, exvangelical, former fundie, leaving christianity, gospels, jesus, bible, god, christian, evangelism, apologist, atheist vs christian, agnostic, recovering from religion
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Morality is doing what's right regardless of what you are told. Obedience is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.
Well said Jim.
@@52156drj Thanks, but I can't take credit for it. I forget where I first heard it, but I agree with you that it is a powerful statement. Sadly, religion often teaches people to be obedient while failing to question whether what they are being told to do is moral.
The problem is that religious people define what's right based on what the bible tells them what's right. They'll see this statement as two non-excluding premises. Unless they grasp a concept of ethics that surpasses religious standards, they will be totally unable to discern right from wrong.
The bible has a verse repeated some times, "in those days everyone did what was right in their own eyes", did it say they were doing the right thing no they did many wrong things, one can argue Hitler did what was right regardless of what one says. Who is to say he is wrong if he thinks he is right. What is morality, morality IS the right thing to do, and who in the universe knows what to do, God. Jesus was God with us and is the way the truth and the life, and if Morality is doing the right thing, the right thing to do is to follow jesus and its immoral to follow your own desires/ideas. Jesus is saving us from corruption and hell.
@@specilegg You are demonstrating your obedience to what you were taught to believe, which simply demonstrates how successful your indoctrination was. I'm sorry, but despite how convincing you might think your claims are, they are as convincing to non-Christians as the claims of Islam, or Hinduism, or Scientology would be to you. In other words, not in the least. One person's "truth" is another person's superstitious nonsense. And yours is a perfect example of that.
Religion is truly exhausting
It certainly can be, lol
Yes! If you truly care it’s exhausting to sort out the unsortable. 😅
@Kristi Burke Your smart enough to put the pieces together and give the truth. The tribe of Judah is doing what YHWH told them to do, exterminate all of us. While you dance around countless bodies are racking up pushing the all cause mortality rate to extinction. Why don't you discuss that Kristi? I get so frustrated with people like you that thinks their doing something, when we both know what your doing in the scope of things is useless. Do you even know what I'm talking about? It's plastered all over the OT mirroring real life, and we know the who by their pentagram, and the why because we call this monster God. You've got all the pieces to possibly make a difference . Why don't you do something about it like speak the truth? Our ills are caused by these people that stupid Christians call the chosen. It's a vicious cycle and we are losing big. It's beyond a lost cause. When they call your number what do you want the last words to say?
Not to me. Once you come out of legalism, the rest is natural, liberating, powerful.
@@JustinCase-em6ql and deadly. It's funny how no one mentions God's hate for 99% of everyone while he has his chosen sitting pretty pulling the trap door on those hanging.
Well said. Christian morality is not morality.
It is blind, unthinking obedience.
@@tonybuck1225 its true. God wants obedience above all Else. Even Jesus said that He will just consider people His friend whose obey his commandments to the teeth. The very first sin Adam and Eve committed was desobedience.
@@tonybuck1225 OK. I have made 2 core claims. Which would you like to challenge first?
1. Christian morality = obedience to the Christian god's commands?
2. Christian morality = obedience without any need to understand the reasoning behind the Christian god's commands
@@tonybuck1225 Your comment is a blind personal attack, and has no place here. It adds nothing to the discussion. If you want to show there is ignorance, then give an example.
@@tonybuck1225 It still desobedience regardless. Also, how could it be a sin since Adam and Eve never knew right or wrong before the snake tempted them? It was Victim Blaming since they had no way to reason it.
@@tonybuck1225 How were Adam and Eve supposed to know who Satan was and what he's done? Did God tell them about him? No. Did God tell them exactly WHY they would "die" if they ate from the tree of knowledge? No. In fact, since it's supposed to be the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, why wouldn't they want to eat it and truly learn what they might and might not to do with God and others?
I love how Christians always talk about how important it is that God gave us freewill, but then tell us how important it is that we are obedient. So God gave us freewill so we could choose not to use it.
Nope feel free to use it, you reap what you sew
@@japexican007 So we’re not free to use as we’ll punished for doing - try thinking it through dopey
@@grahamblack1961 are you free to put your hand 🤚 in a fire, yes dopey you are but once you have don’t complain that you got burned for putting your hand in the fire dopey, you reap what you sew
*@grahamblack1961* Exactly 😏😜.... ~🩵
'free'-will is a myth ,
I doesn't exist
And when a defendant in a murder case admits guilt and claims "God told me to do it" the defense attorney make an insanity plea and not an innocence plea.
this is a very important point to consider!
@@jezebelvibes God is Good, therefore will never tell someone to commit murder.
@TonyBuck tell me you haven't read the Bible without telling me you haven't read the Bible
Claiming " God told me to do it" ≠ God told you to do it. Dismiss.
The other personal problem with God told me to do it is how do I know it really was God. I would have to have knowledge of God verifiable only by God. I would have to be elevated to a state of omniscience in order to know that I know that was God.
When you know that you know that you know. You know 😂
Describing God feels like you're describing all of the awful, manipulative, abusive things I despise about so many Christian men I've met.
Lol. Man made god in his own image.
@@jezebelvibes All who "read" the bible, yet not getting a picture that we deserve fire again, as we have become SODOM AND GOMORRAH worldwide and we live under masonic rulership,
, has forgotten the needed part, BIBLE is to study also.
Without studying no knowledge.
Without the hunger for truth, no understanding.
I remind again, KJV version seem to be perfectly harsh one, as bible should be.
Like Christ is not found among the dead, so is Christianity not found among religions.
Religions are false ways to heaven, created my masons.
Mix not lies with truth ( religions with reality) and risk to lose souls. We suppose to win them over to GOD not lose them into devils hand.
Christians have maligned God's image by not living up to God's moral standard. But pretending that Christians falling short of God's standards intentionally or unintentionally is the same as God's character and moral standard is totally delusional. It is totally delusional because to judge God's character, you have to posit a moral framework and how morality, rewards and punishment, works in that framework. If you were to use God's moral framework as He posit's in the Bible to judge God, you will have to show how God violates or deviates from that moral framework. Until you can do that, you have no valid standing to judge God's moral character let alone His behavior.
@fightthegoodfight he gave me the ability to reason, to make judgment calls, as such, I have the ability to call his standard of morality bs. You are right in the sense that if such a being exist there is nothing I can do about it, but I highly doubt such a being exist. So, I put this more on ancient men views of morality.
@@unknownx7252 It is simple, if GOD exist not, no human exist also. + everything GOD had made.
Yet we all see enough to agree, that existence/ fallen state of life takes place before our eyes.
Therefore why practising being dumb? or is it cowardly? Not wanting that this world laugh at us or worse, hate us?
Have we forgotten? CHRIST was also hated before any of us.
She really hit the nail on the head. She describes it exactly how it is with the Christian beliefs regarding morality and God doing whatever he wants......
The bible has a verse repeated some times, "in those days everyone did what was right in their own eyes", did it say they were doing the right thing no they did many wrong things, one can argue Hitler did what was right regardless of what one says. Who is to say he is wrong if he thinks he is right. What is morality, morality IS the right thing to do, and who in the universe knows what to do, God. Jesus was God with us and is the way the truth and the life, and if Morality is doing the right thing, the right thing to do is to follow jesus and its immoral to follow your own desires/ideas. Jesus is saving us from corruption and hell.
I know the Bible better than most Pastors/ Preachers do, and certainly most Christians...
I spent decades of my life in Church/ Bible studies.....
At this point in my life I am no longer convinced it's actually true. Over the years I have seen countless flaws in the Christian religion.
The girl in these TH-cam videos makes way more sense to me in what she's saying, than any preacher did, the 40 years I spent in Church .......
Critical thinking was my gateway away from christianity, 14 year old me learned what critical thinking was and after a very bad month of my life I dropped religion cold turkey and now when I look at religion in america, I am concerned, very much so.
Most people are
And you do most certainly have quite good reason to be thus concerned; we should all be.... ~🩵
Christianity is slowly dying anyways though
critical think, why are the just saved by faith, jesus said my sheep hear my voice, jesus was sinless. A world without God has no grounds for morality, (literally), people don't want God and will sell morality for something. Jesus did exist, Christianity would not exist without Jesus. Jesus was witnessed to be the christ, The promised messiah from the old testament who will establish the everlasting kingdom of God. What part of this is wrong, paradise can not exist with corruption, and man should choose the right thing. why sell what is good for corruption.
You have every reason to be concerned!!!
The religious have far more power than their true numbers would indicate.
In government, nothing goes without religion.
The Supreme Court just proved that it is a dependency of religion.
It is downright scary!!!
Great last words that so wonderfully sum up the cognitive dissonance of biblical morality.
"God saying, 'Do as I say, not as I do... What I do is good, no matter what it is. What you do is bad, no matter what is.' "
Kristi, I love how you are addressing some of the really messed up things a lot of us believed in a loving way.
I wish I had this video when I first began my journey of deconstruction.
The bible has a verse repeated some times, "in those days everyone did what was right in their own eyes", did it say they were doing the right thing no they did many wrong things, one can argue Hitler did what was right regardless of what one says. Who is to say he is wrong if he thinks he is right. What is morality, morality IS the right thing to do, and who in the universe knows what to do, God. Jesus was God with us and is the way the truth and the life, and if Morality is doing the right thing, the right thing to do is to follow jesus and its immoral to follow your own desires/ideas. Jesus is saving us from corruption and hell.
@@specilegg did you already sell all your posesions and gave the money to the poor?
@@specilegg "What is morality, morality IS the right thing to do, and who in the universe knows what to do, God." -
Assuming that he exists: maybe he doesn't know what's objectively right and wrong? Did he prove it that he knows?
Or maybe he knows what's objectively right and wrong, but he doesn't tell anybody and doesn't act accordingly?
Maybe the existence of objective morality (in the sense that it's not based on subjective feelings and opinions) is simply not possible?
I can not find anywhere in the Bible where God says "Do as I say, not as I do." What "Bible are you reading?
@@vadouis-rt3of Well, the Bible doesn't tell us that explicitly. But if according to the Bible god says we shouldn't do action A (like e. g. brutally killing sentient beings, e. g. humans), but god does action A again and again, you could say the Bible tells us implicitly to "do as god says, but not as god does."
The Bible has been used to justify things that most of us now find repugnant: slavery, segregation, bans on interracial marriage. That undermines the idea that a god is providing morality. Morals are subject to change and we are apparently able to ignore or reinterpret the Bible as needed.
No, the understanding of morality changes.
But the basic bibilical moral rules:
Love your neighbour as yourself
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Are unchanged and unchangeable.
@@tonybuck1225”love thy neighbor as thyself”can be nonsensical considering the type of neighbors you might have.
Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you didn’t originate with the Bible. The principle predates the Bible.
@@tonybuck1225 Enslaving your neighbor is not love. Jim Crow was not doing unto others as you would have done to you. And as I said, people ignore and interpret as they see fit. This renders the idea of a god bestowing objective morality impossible.
Great comment
@@tonybuck1225I don't see any xtians practicing those things
A dazzling display of logic and objective reasoning. Well done! In pagan Wicca, there is only one moral code to follow: "do what thou will but harm ye none".
I think this is a perfect moral standard to live by!
@@jezebelvibes Well no, since it sets aside our duty to respect our creator, God.
Which aside from anything else, is failing terribly in gratitude.
@@tonybuck1225 You mean "our duty" to respect the god of the Bible, an ancient Semitic volcano/war god who has gone through various permutations over thousands of years.
@@c.a.t.732 God hasn't. Our understanding of God has.
@@tonybuck1225 Our understanding of Yahweh has certainly changed due to archaeological evidence. We can clearly see how he changed from being one among many Semitic gods to being the chief deity to being regarded eventually as the only deity.
Obedience = slavery & stupidity.
Obedience = Do as I say not as I do.
Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. Ephesians 4:31 - 5:1
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9
@@specilegg I like the first bit better.
I have a Catholic friend that cheats on his wife, but he doesn't consider it cheating because he avoids actual intercourse with other women but is intimate in other ways, like oral, etc. So his moral views seem centered around physical actions and doesn't factor psychological or emotional harm, like if his wife were to find out, as being wrong. Its mind blowing.
Well said
That is sodamy, filatio only ok as foreplay for unprotected vaginal sex with no birth control. But many catholics wouldn't even allow that.
So true. People who follow restrictive obedience based morality typically will look for loopholes so they don’t go crazy.🤨
A husband took an oath in marriage to forsake all others, before God and man. So because of his evil desires, he decides to cheat on his wife. Who is the evil one here?
Well, technically, AND NO CHRISTIAN READING THIS CAN ARGUE THIS..
That woman is nothing more than his personal property. His wife is like his donkey. Hell, he can offer his neighbor money for his wife, and take 2, 3, 15.. no limit.
This is especially delicious listening to bitchwhipped women defend this like the one true god actually condones this clearly incel-jew propaganda. Men who cannot get laid terrify women into sleeping with them.
I love this, Kristi. I have been working on my own video addressing Morality, as I get that from Christian commenters more than anything else. This was wonderful fuel for thought!
Thank you! I'm looking forward to your thoughts on morality, too. It's such a complex and nuanced topic, I feel like I could talk for days and still not have all of my thoughts together, lol. Shoot me an email Jezebelvibes@gmail.com if you ever want to collab!
I can’t wait to see your video of this subject. I’m a subscriber. I hope you can explain the changes made from the laws of the Old Testament vs the new. Why have these old laws in the first place just to get rid of them?
@@jezebelvibes A Kristi / MindShift collab might just break Christianity.
This collab must happen! Two best new atheist youtubers out there!
@@jezebelvibes Let's do it! I would absolutely love to. I have been so impressed by your videos; it would be delightful. I'll email this week and lets put something together.
If the Christian god claims to set the universal standard and lay the framework for human moral values then he's got quite a bit of explaining to do concerning hypocrisy for both himself and his followers. Look at the track record over the last century alone (I don't know, the holocaust maybe)....If there is a god he's either not all good or not all powerful, can't be both. Great work Kristi. Keep em' coming!
It really does boil down to that. The fact that god cannot even live up to his own moral standard of perfection seems as though it should be enough to turn anyone away.
“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”
Romans 1:24-25 KJV
@@japexican007 Yeah I'd worry about your own flock first. Plenty there to keep you busy from what I've seen.
@@jezebelvibes That's why anything God does is supposed to be good, because Christians are trying to have their cake and eat it too by allowing evil to exist, including evil that humans have nothing to do with causing, and still have a supposedly all powerful all loving all good God.
On that note, I hope you have or will put in a video about the problem of evil, which the answer to from Christians is always "free will", even though free will is entirely possible without the capacity for evil and thus is not an excuse for the existence of evil.
@@pureheathen1720 apologies friend but i need not worry about my own flock for God has them covered by his blood. God bless
The Christian org I was in was hiding CSA. When I researched their articles about rape, (articles I was donating for) it was written “The intended victim should remember that the rapist is a human. No doubt there are circumstances in his life that have precipitated his behavior. So although a woman should not cower in fear and permit a rapist to intimidate her, at the same time she should treat him understandingly, as a fellow human.” Even compared some passage from Bible. What a shock it was to me finding out what actually this Christian org’s face was. Still doesn’t apologize about the hidden CSA. I wonder how can the TRUE CHRISTIAN GOD “if exists” not acknowledge such CHRISTIAN ORG is holding his supposed trustworthy moral book but in other hand are messing it up. How can’t the TRUE ONE appear and just STOP Christian charlatans! Will ALLOW these Bible holding charlatans to mislead the innocent and vulnerable! The worst, innocent children being molested in a supposed Holy Spirit surroundings, churches, a place to learn His morals! It’s His book, how can the Author be silent about it! Unbelievable and disgusted!
I've given you a 'thumbs-up', because I think I agree with the general tenor of your post, but I'm not good with all the modern acronyms... What does 'CSA' stand for?
Ezekiel 36:23
And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
@@harold2 (Yawns heavily!) Yeah... right... 2,000 and more years later and we're still waiting! Well... YOU are still waiting... many of us have realized it's just not going to happen! Your 'god' doesn't exist... and if he did he'd be a genocidal, filicidal, slave-mongering, misanthropic and misogynistic monster!
The Bible fiercely condemns such behaviour. And as the Bible is God's Word, He isn't being silent about it, is He ?
@@theseustoo Thanks, it’s Child Sex Abuse.
Just the fact that the ten commandments says Doo Not Kill and then God tells Abraham to kill his son for him. It's just weird.
The whole Old Testament is insane. The book is full of genocide, raping and killing of children. Everything commanded by the Lord him self.
So God him self is breaking his own laws.
All the more weird when you know that god killed a ton of Egyptians, told the people not to murder, and turned right around and told them to take the land and kill the people in it.
WOOO!!! Just wow 😮. These Christians are going to be mad at this one. As always your points are very well made, clear and concise. Thank you 😊
I'm a Christian and I'm not mad. Christians who have an understanding of the Bible shouldn't be mad either. She's using her natural mind, using her reasoning, to question God's motives, and saying, her morals, and her understanding of the situations in the Bible, are above God's.
Even in God's word, there's a scripture verse that says, the carnal mind, (natural mind )is enmity against God. Romans 8: 7.
She's proving it right here with her words.
God is good and apart from him there is evil and corruption.
@@kevinmalone3210 So using reasoning is bad in your opinion?
@@specileggI’m not mad. It was another try and fail for trying to prove morality is subjective.
Your videos are really insightful. I was raised in a fanatical Pentecostal church for 16 years. The things you mention often confused me tremendously when I was growing up. Members of the church were never to question any scripture in the bible. When I came across a scripture that contradicted God as a righteous and just God, I was always chastised as being an instrument for Satan. Even my own father was hyper critical of me for asking such blasphemous questions. My own father would rationalize it as "God is omnipotent and righteous and we should never question his actions, just accept it." That answer was never good enough for me. Keep making your videos, I really enjoy them.
The Scripture says Jesus Christ is God.
Since Jesus Christ is Righteous, where's the problem ?
Please understand the Bible in the Light of the Gospel and in the comforting presence of the Holy Spirit.
But I agree about harsh, authoritarian Christians - they harm Christianity.
Often of course, they are people who have been scarred by poverty or the bad behaviour of others.
@@tonybuck1225 Jesus might have been righteous, but God wasn't, just go and read the old testment.
@@moises16 Jesus is God. I understand the Bible in the light of Jesus and His Gospel.
@@tonybuck1225 oh Yeah...Explain to me why did God done all atrocities at the old testament and why didn't He cure cancer nowadays? And no excuse of "he knows whats good"or mysterious ways or any chsitian defensive excuse.
@@tonybuck1225
They want to dictate to you what morality is and shame you, while feeling morally superior as they do what they want to do.
What happened to free will?
@@undrwatropium3724 Yeah, "free will" was debunked a long time ago, wasn't it?
@@johnnyredlegs Or was it? One experiment does not a monumental theory make. Plus, an alternate theory for why brain wave crests seem to appear 'before' decisions has been offered that does NOT rule out spontaneous choice.
But contrarians love to jump all over 'the latest thing' that proves the establishment wrong.
@@johnnyredlegsNo, it’s not about humans being superior to humans. God, however, is superior.
@@lovespeaks777 Does he exist?
Morality and ethics are quite fascinating to me. Over the last few years, I've been coming up with a set of ethical axioms for how I believe morality works. That makes it sound like something really deep, but I've come up with exactly three things:
1) Causing harm is bad, relieving harm is good. This is a spectrum, and no action can be purely good or bad.
2) Suffering is harm.
3) Loss of autonomy is harm.
The third one is actually a fairly recent addition. It took me some time to categorize things that were obviously bad, but didn't really fall under "suffering."
Morality is understanding right from wrong. Morality is empathy, integrity, and compassion. That is your morality
Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking
I’ve come up with my own too.
Subjective morality logically concludes the following:
1. Murderers are morally objectively innocent.
2. You get mad or outraged at people that haven’t done anything objectively morally wrong to you.
3. How you’ve lived your life is no different than Hitler’s morally speaking.
4. Choosing chocolate over vanilla is no different than choosing to harm someone instead of being nice to them.
5. There is nothing objectively morally good or bad, right or wrong. (Objective moral values and duties don’t exist)
6. You are not objectively obligated to care about others’ well being or survival.
7. You can change your mind about a moral issue (murder is wrong) and it is subjectively right even when you believed the opposite. For example, if you believed murder was wrong at one point and then right at another, it would be true for you in both instances. If you endlessly change your mind about whether something is morally right or wrong, it is always true for you.
8. If you and another disagree about any moral issue, there is no point in telling them they’re wrong because they can’t be objectively wrong about their moral beliefs. So why are their laws?
9. You don’t have any reason to follow your own moral compass, considering you aren’t obligated to follow it.
For these reasons and others, subjective morality isn’t reasonable or true.
At the base level, it's not even about obedience, it's about not thinking. The existence of all religions rely upon its followers *not* thinking about who they're worshiping, why they worship them, or what they're doing by worshiping, merely shutting up and blindly following it without thinking. This is because if the followers did all think, they would leave those religions and become atheists and those religions would die off. Hence why the Christian Morals are about obeying God blindly instead of thinking about your choices and the morality of them on your own.
A prison for your mind and spirit and a weapon in the hands of oppressors
Spot on as usual Kristi. Morality comes from our deeply human needs to coexist with one another successfully as a society.
So morality goes hand in hand with obedience, since whatever a society deems moral must be “obeyed” otherwise that society falls apart
@@japexican007 No. Morality goes hand in hand from my need to live in a society in which everyone is safe and we can cooperate and help each other for the benefit of everyone. It comes from recognizing that we're all together in this thing called life, therefore my fellow human beings have the same rights that I do, that my freedoms are limited by theirs. Most importantly it's a consensus that we developed together, an agreement and it keeps developing as time goes on. It's not imposed on us through threats by an outside force.
You are doing an excellent job with your videos. I belive they are making the world a better place. Thank you.
Thank you so much! 💓
I disagree. Telling people we have no objective moral obligations isn’t a good thing. If there aren’t laws, is everyone going to just behave? Nope, we see how that works out in our culture
Another good example of obedience to god being what really matters is the tale of Lot and his family. Told Sodam and Gomorrah were to be destroyed, they were to leave and not look back. For the major crime of looking back, Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt.
Yes - since waverers are lost. That is the practical and psychological law of this world.
@@tonybuck1225When the Angels were guiding Lot and his family out of the city, didn't Lot also hesitate for a moment to continue and so the angels took him by the hand and forced him out? How come he was allowed to be spared despite wavering?
Lets not Forget before that, God also said that if He finds one person on one of the cities, He'd spare them in love for that one person, but He changed his mind and destroyed it anyway.
Which is another example of God committing genocide.
@@kntranced719 He didn't look back in a longing for Sodom.
If the only reason that you can find to not murder, rape or abuse is that your obeying what you feel that a deity wants then you’re more than likely a sociopath and the rest of society implores you to keep believing that your deity doesn’t want you to do those things.
yes God can do wherever he wants (if even a godless person got it, that means something is changing).. And you are nobody to judge him (we are in the stupid time where godless and Souless alone people judge God and not the way around... Hopefully we will move soon as possible from this stupid time)... But that shows again the hipocrisy of godless alone people. Not just they wants judge God without any authority, judging him (for things he commanded in the past, let's repeat things were made in the past" but those people will shut up infront the worst things humans do everyday (which is 100000000 times worst) (wars, conflicts, rape, human traffic, weapons tragic, killing, lies and so on). So they prove again their hipocrisy. They do not deny humanity for that, I wonder why... Another reason to not respect those Goddeniers alone obsessed people (and be so Hipocrite), be like them and believe in God.
This is what traditional Christians say to modern Christians.
@@Lerian_V can you elaborate? Traditional v modern? Just so that we are clear.
@@SPL0869 I'll repost what I have commented elsewhere under this video.
2:43 "Does moral value derive from the inherent goodness of certain actions or from the fact that God commands them?
You're talking about the Protestant/Occamist concept of God, which is similar to the Islamic Allah when it comes to exercising power and dictating morality.
In traditional Christianity (pre-Protestant Christianity), moral values derive from the inherent goodness of the particular actions, NOT the fact that God commanded them. God's actions are identical to God's nature which is the ultimate or infinite good (a different argument demonstrates this). God's command is NOT the absolute standard of good, God's nature is. God actions, which include his commands, are bound by his nature. Therefore, God cannot act immorally in an objective sense, since there is no standard beyond himself which he is subject to.
Here's a question an atheist asked a co-debater (Christian):
"Since you deny [in some sense] that God is a moral agent... is there a sense on your view in which God is praiseworthy or blameworthy? If God does have acts - those acts have consequences for the world - is he praiseworthy or blameworthy for those acts in such a way that he would always be worthy of our worship?
Pay close attention to how the question was answered (the video, linked below, is titled "Debate: Does God Exist? - Fr Gregory Pine Vs. Ben Watkins"). The answer is from 1:11:52 to 1:15:48
The second video (titled "The Forerunners of the Reformation - with Dr Scott Hahn") traces the history of the modern/Protestant/Occamist concept of morality in relation to God which you, rightly, have issues with.
@@SPL0869 Debate: Does God Exist? - th-cam.com/video/0QMwHUijmqo/w-d-xo.html
The Forerunners of the Reformation - th-cam.com/video/CTMX4C169bg/w-d-xo.html
Agnostic_Christian Debate | Speakers' Corner | London UK - th-cam.com/video/RF8cHdSIYro/w-d-xo.html
Virtue, in order to actually BE Virtue, must be practiced for its own sake... without hope of reward and without fear of punishment. Obedience may be practical and pragmatic, and it may even be a form of virtue (note, the absence of the capital 'V'!) but it is the virtue of a donkey... Human morality and human Virtue require far more!
Edit: Starting with a responsibility to think for yourself!
But usually they deliver far less.
Human nature is prone to evil, and many human moralities are evil.
Stalin, Hitler and Bin Laden were all sincere, principled guys rather than cynics.
But they'd lost the moral plot.
As human beings almost always will, if they're without God's help.
That's Kant's morality. Very well argued but very, very hard to comply.
@@luis_sa78 Who ever said Virtue was easy? But then, nothing worth striving for was ever easy... 🤔😉
How do you KNOW you are thinking your own thoughts given millions of years of evolution ?
@@RocketKirchner Well... that's a good question, I suppose... It's true that there are so many earlier philosophers who have had various viewpoints on just about every topic under the sun that one is likely to be recycling some of them whatever one decides to think, and regardless of whether or not one is actually aware of them.
But that doesn't mean you're not thinking for yourself, as it is you who will choose between the various available philosophies and you who will decide on what, out of all those viewpoints you know of, is most appropriate for you... and maybe - just maybe! - you might come up with something quite original, though admittedly this is rare. There are few truly original 'thinkers'.
Of course, if you're not familiar with all the available philosophies, you may still think stuff that has been thought before, but again it will still be YOU thinking it! And you can hardly be blamed if it resembles someone else's thoughts.
But to have ALL of your thinking done for you by some religious dogma laid down in some ancient 'scripture', even if it is interpreted by various priests or pastors, is not only dangerously NOT thinking for yourself... it's also just plain, downright lazy! 'Dangerously'? Yes... because if you allow all your thinking to be done for you by some 'pastor' or 'shepherd', you risk becoming a sheep! To be fleeced regularly and sacrificed or slaughtered at the shepherd's whim.
So eloquently delivered. Thanks for these extremely well put together and thought provoking videos
Glad you enjoyed it!
The 'god made you' and 'you can't question god' crowd is always good for a laugh. It's like wait a minute 'god made me to question him' that's just how it works out. Then that crowd will fall back the 'you were never' line.
I also find I'm not that good at following, it always seems to get me into trouble.
Thumbs up and Thanks Kristi.
I have been commenting for years that *"faith"* is *not* a *virtue.*
Faith is lazy.
@@stever.9925 And mindless, as well.... ~🩵
You are fantastic!
That's sweet! Thank you for supporting me!
🤔 Who is most moral? The one who feeds the poor because…
a) they were promised a great reward.
b) they were threatened with a great punishment.
c) seeing hungry people makes them sad.
You get it right. Eve disobeyed by just thinking for herself. The sin was just thinking for herself.
It was the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life that got her into trouble.
@@vadouis-rt3of No it wasn't. It was making a decision independently from the overloard.
@@jayg342 That was influenced by the subtleness of the serpent, being Satan. So it was not an independent decision.
@@vadouis-rt3of The serpent wasn't Satan. That is just non-cononical fan fic.
@@jayg342 Even if it was not, Eve was still influenced by the serpent. It was not an independent decision.
I gave up Christianity 2 years ago due to my mental health. I stopped praying and reading the bible altogether and eventually stopped going to church also. I have not had any contact with church since apart from my friends there. I did not want anyone to reinterpret my experience and change my narrative to their narrative. Lately i have been watching utube vids about peoples experiences of coming away. Not too bothered about the evidence part but it is helpful to me to see how others coped with coming away as i felt such a sense of loss. There is still a part of me that believes in God, but that part ferls that i did not obey and let God down and that im going to hell. Im glad there are places like these just to hear orher peoples stories.
Yes it destroys the mental health..agreed 💯
It is possible to know an ineffable creator that does not fit into the tiny and inconsistent and rather cruel confines of the Christian God. Maybe that's what you're looking for?
This too shall pass. The indoctrination is rooted so deep and the use of guilt gets you for a while. But, the more evidence you find that disproves Christianity, the easier it gets. I have been free of religion for at least 15 years and it was hard in the beginning for the reasons you mentioned. Today, I am truly free from the indoctrination.
You have found the real truth.
Kristi hit this one out of the park. Great vid!
A wonderful start to my Sunday morning - waking up to a new Kristi video. 🙂
I have always found it amazing that if you were to follow the Bible or Qur'an literally it would lead one to commit atrocities like what we saw on 9/11. These holy books are uplifted as the ultimate moral authority , but the literal adherence to the fundamentals causes the worst in human behavior.
Idk about the Qur'an, but Jesus never taught anyone to commit atrocious acts. Y'all cherry picking the Bible because you're spoiled little brats that can't see past your own noses. A bunch of narcissistic self worshipers.
follow the bible to the letter, and you'll be a criminal in EVERY country on Earth
Following Jesus for last 49 years has taught me how love and give .
The new testament nullifies the old, so Christians don't do 9/11
You have a phenomenal channel. Thanks for sharing.
I appreciate that!
Now I have plenty to think about this weekend. I agree with your logic. Big hug from Rienzi Mississippi. I enjoy seeing the subscriptions going up!!!🎉
Thanks for watching and supporting
Thank you for making this. ❤
Preach it Sister!!!
Mind blown 🤯!! Spot on! Excellent work Kristi.
Thanks so much!!
Hi Kristi. I'm 65 and have been a Christian since I was 30. I've recently gone through my own deconstruction from evangelical Christianity. I still believe that God exists but I no longer believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. I don't believe that mankind is inherently evil or in need of salvation. I also no longer believe in hell or Satan. Your channel has been a big help in going through this process. I'm not sure if there is anyone I know who I can share this with, so I really appreciate you and what you are doing to help people like myself. Thank you.
This was a really good break down! Thank you
Well said, thank you!
Hey there. I found your videos not because of my own experiences, but because of a dear friend who has suffered at the hands of a Christian family that doesn't accept my friend for who they are (avoiding any descriptors other than 'my friend' in the interest of anonymity). And I, myself, have been raised in a Conservative Jewish household (as in the Conservative denomination, as opposed to Orthodox or Reform). And watching your videos, I sometimes find a lot of familiarity with stuff that caused me to choose to no longer associate myself with the Jewish faith. It wasn't nearly as oppressive for me as it seems like Christianity is for so many people, but I just wanted to let you know that in the process of learning more about what my friend has gone through, I've found at least a bit of logical reasoning that makes me feel better about my own choices in life, even if I'm not your intended audience.
Thank you for doing this good work. I can only imagine how hard it must be to share so much of your past when you've been so vulnerable. I think you're remarkably brave for doing what you do with this channel, and I very much hope that people who need the help far more than I do are able to find some calm, clarity, validation, and acceptance here. In the interest of wishing you well, but not using a religious expression, let's try "May the Force be with you, always!" ^_^
I really like your short and sweet, straight to the point approach in your videos. I feel the kindness and compassion. It's such nice change from the head strong "militant" atheist type content that has got so popular. I would totally share your content with a Christian knowing it wouldn't scare them away.
great video.
great topic. more morality videos please...
thankyou again...!
Thank you for speaking this.
I am a preacher’s kid.
Trained to be silent. Everything you say are the words I am working to speak better.
I’ve been a non Christian for 10years now but I still have trouble putting into words these things you’ve said.
Thank you so much for your channel.
Just know that ultimately the chances of you changing your parents minds are almost zero. Even if you can articulate rationally every fault in the Bible, fear of letting the religion go and Pride from raising you will likely trump any logic. If your goal is to articulate yourself to other people that you are not that close with why you don’t believe then continue to try and improve that skill…But if your goal is to try to articulate yourself to your family, understand that it is not your responsibility to lead them to truth and be kind to yourself if or when they still reject your ideas
Religion is prison for your mind and spirit and a weapon in the hands of oppressors.
If the angels rebelled because they wanted power then there is sin in heaven and therefore not perfect.
Subjective morality logically concludes the following:
1. Murderers are morally objectively innocent.
2. You get mad or outraged at people that haven’t done anything objectively morally wrong to you.
3. How you’ve lived your life is no different than Hitler’s morally speaking.
4. Choosing chocolate over vanilla is no different than choosing to harm someone instead of being nice to them.
5. There is nothing objectively morally good or bad, right or wrong. (Objective moral values and duties don’t exist)
6. You are not objectively obligated to care about others’ well being or survival.
7. You can change your mind about a moral issue (murder is wrong) and it is subjectively right even when you believed the opposite. For example, if you believed murder was wrong at one point and then right at another, it would be true for you in both instances. If you endlessly change your mind about whether something is morally right or wrong, it is always true for you.
8. If you and another disagree about any moral issue, there is no point in telling them they’re wrong because they can’t be objectively wrong about their moral beliefs. So why are their laws?
9. You don’t have any reason to follow your own moral compass, considering you aren’t obligated to follow it.
For these reasons and others, subjective morality isn’t reasonable or true.
You are my brain out loud. Thank you!
I love your content and level headed thought! You’re one of the channels I use to model non-black-and-white thinking. It’s so hard to get away from.
When I was eight I learned about Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac. I remember asking my mom if she would ever do such a thing if God asked her and she replied that if God asked her she would. She wouldn't be happy about it but she would obey God. I was terrified.
It’s an allegory ! Read Kierkegaard “ the teleological suspension of the ethical “
It's religious double talk. The discovery that your fellow man can be fooled by lies.
Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. To make good people do bad things you need religion.
Nah this made me laugh 😂
I can understand that some people think obedience is moral, since like you said, the social cohesion is often of importance to moral concerns, and with obedience that moral cohesion can thrive. The issue is that this only works in a homogeneous society, which is why that was no issue in medieval ages of small communities, but modern nations simply cannot be that homogeneous (which is the reason why we got fascism and the futile attempt to return to such values). Also, on a personal level I can understand the desire for obedience as well, and it fits the Christian mindset also rather well, since it is liberating to abnegate accountability and responsibility and just do as one is told. That is the whole salvation idea in Christianity. It is weird though that Christians are then so often telling people to take responsibilities or be accountable for their actions, when they are not interested in doing that themselves, but instead are happy to be saved by grace of their deity alone.
Another fantastic video 👏👏
Very good content! Thanks!
Can you imagine Isaac’s continuing trauma - being bound up and laid on an altar by his own father, who is about to murder him and only stops at the last minute. How would the follow up conversation go? Talk about generational religious trauma.
If someone tells you that Christian morality is objective and eternal, ask them this question: According to 1 Samuel 15, God ordered humans to kill all the Amelekites, including all of their infants. Those humans, acting of their own free will (we know this because they did not obey all of God's orders-they spared some sheep and cattle) did kill all of those infants. So is it objectively wrong for humans to kill infants?
"...God ordered humans to kill all the Amalekites, including all of their infants.." .... Just to think of such a thing, this world is in one-hell-of-a-mess.
That's a poor test case - the Amalekites were a genocidal bunch.
It was lives versus lives - kill or be killed.
The reason why God did this is because the Amalekites were wicked nomadic people-They practiced child burnings to appease their “gods” held public tortures as a sport,and taboo sex,and were always attacking Gods people the Jews. The children were destroyed because they would of grown up to adopt evil religious beliefs-and practices of their parents-and also be an enemy of Gods people. Imagine how messed up and crazy these children would of been as adults! But one day these children will be in Heaven!
@@tonybuck1225their infants were not, in fact, genocidal.
And also, “Slay old and young, maids and LITTLE CHILDREN” Ezekiel 9,4-7
“Kill every male among the LITTLE ONES” Numbers 31
Anyone who can read the “God’s Guide to Genocide” manual, aka the bible, and not recoil in horror and revulsion at the gratuitously cruel atrocities committed or commanded by the brutal, barbaric, bloodthirsty god therein, has suspended all pity, empathy and compassion.
Thanks for the video :)
Keep up the good work.
I would love how you break down Job's story ❤
I've had this requested a few times. I've got it on the list!
"We are gonna kill your seven children" but, that's ok. We're gonna give him seven new ones later. Children are not fungibles.
I've been having this same problem with God and it's makingr angry with this God and he is deplorable and dispicable
Then you completely misunderstand God.
@@tonybuck1225oh really?
Explain this....
Kill adulterers (Lev 20:10)
Kill all witches (Ex 22:18)
Kill blasphemers (Lev 24:14)
Kill false prophets (Zech 13:3)
Kill fortune-tellers (Lev 20:27)
Kill anyone who sins (Ezek 18:4)
Kill the curious (1 Sam 6:19-20)
Kill gays (Lev 20:13, Rom 1:21-32)
Kill all non-Hebrews (Dt 20:16-17)
Kill sons of sinners (Isaiah 14:21)
Kill non-believers (2 Chron 15:12-13)
Kill anyone who curses God (Lev 24:16)
Kill any child who hits a parent (Ex 21:15)
Kill children who disobey parents (Dt 21:20)
Kill those who work on the Sabbath (Ex 31:15)
Kill disobedient children (Ex 21:17, Mk 7:10)
Kill strangers close to a church (Num 1:48-51)
Kill all males after winning battles (Dt 20:13)
Kill those who curse father or mother (Lev 20:9)
Kill men who have sex with other men (Lev 20:13)
Kill any bride discovered not a virgin (Dt 22:21)
Kill those who worship the wrong god (Num 25:1-9)
Kill anyone who does not observe the Sabbath (Ex 31:14)
Kill everybody in a town that worships the wrong god (Dt 13:13-16)
And most importantly: Kill anyone who kills anyone (Lev 24:17).
Thanks for all you do!!!
Thanks for talking about this. ❤
Like you, I was raised fundamental Christian. Thank you so much for shining this light
Great chat! I have brought up the Abraham and Isaac story in the context of Abraham making the wrong choice several times to other Mormons and Christians in general and they always give me a look of utter disbelief that I would interpret the story in that way. But when I bring up real life examples of people doing the same thing to their own children they are quick to dismiss it as something different. I ask them how is it different? And they can rarely give a convincing reason.
These same people will then claim that nonbelievers have a moral relativism. When in reality the religious believer’s morality is relative to what they think their god wants. There always seems to be some sort of belief in the Divine Command Theory.
Great t-shirt Kristi! ❤
Thank you!!
I'm glad you escaped that cult my wife was raised in that environment but never really showed interest or practiced anything but when I heard that story is I am not or never have been religious I was amazed how the church blinds people because even before I was a full-blown atheist I heard that story was like what kind of love is that? That is a horrific God
They get us early -- before the age of 7, our brains are such that we take in everything as truth. (This is why the Jesuits say, "Give me a child until the age of 7, and I will make them mine for life.") In that early brainwave state, "Don't cross the street without an adult" has the same weight as "God so loved us he redeemed us after he sent a flood to kill us." I didn't even grow up fundamentalist, and in my family questioning (at least to a certain point) was okay, critical thinking was okay-- but still those powerful myths indoctrinated me and i was blind to their true nature for a long time.
If I ever thought I heard the voice of a god telling me to kill somebody I'd ask that voice why it needs my help in crossing off a fellow mortal.
Wowee! There was a lot in that! Brilliant!
Yeah, what christians don't get is that Divine Command Theory (the idea that morality comes from a god) is actually a subjective moral theory. Good and bad being determined only by someone's say so is the definition of moral subjectivism.
To some extent this is caused by a confusion of philosophical terms. Objectivism is often confused with universalism. Objectivism means not dependent on the individual or the individual's preferences or perspectives. Universalism is the idea that something is the same for everyone. So Divine Command Theory is universal because it applies equally to everyone, but it is subjective because it is wholly dependent on a god's individual preferences.
The contrary of universalism (same for everyone) is relativism (different for different people). The contrary of objectivism (not dependent on individual preferences) is subjectivism (dependent on individual preferences).
So some things can be objectively relative, such as the right amount of food for babies and adults. And some things can be subjectively relative, such as a person's taste in music or food.
Likewise, some things can be objectively universal, like the truths of mathematics (same for everyone, and not dependent on an individual's preferences). And some things can be subjectively universal, like Divine Command Theory (same for everyone, dependent on an individual's - god's - preferences).
*Well thought out Kristi.*
I actually hope *Turek* sees this.
That guy has put out some seriously insane *morality defense* over the years.
Turek wouldnt care a shit about what Kristi says. Hi's insane. He doesnt dare to think outside his christian, evil little box. If he does, God might punish him.
Just finding your channel and really appreciate your content. I had a long career working with folks with a variety of cognitive disabilities , mental illness, etc. I have a PhD. The mental gymnastics it takes to justify the Christian god's behavior throughout history and now is astounding! If our souls are at stake, a loving god would not make things so difficult/impossible to believe/understand! That is totally man trying to control others...which is nothing new in the world. Keep up the great work!
More people have died in the name of God than any other reason in history. But the individual basically knows right from wrong. Appreciate your work makes you think.. Thank you.
Well said.
You are terrific, keep it up.
I love you're videos. I'm subscribed And I love commting. You explain it well and have a very interesting take.
When they say God can do these things because he's God. What they are really saying that they don't know. They have no explanation for the reason why Yahweh God brakes is own code.
You aren't wrong! It's another version of "god works in mysterious ways".
God doesn't. Don't be a Fundy, misunderstanding the Bible !
Don't be a parrot, @@tonybuck1225, mindlessly repeating talking points you've been indoctrinated into.
Theres not hate like Christian love.
Spot on as always
Love your videos
Isaiah 45:7 I am the LORD, and there is none else. [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. God is not moral.
Ramen!
@@jezebelvibeslove the play on words using only one word.
The story of Abraham and Isaac always struck a chord for me because of the pro life arguments. For Christians life is sacred so you shouldn't abort ever under any circumstance, maybe except if your life depends on it for medical reasons and even that is sketchy. They also equate abortion to human sacrifice. And to be fair they're not totally wrong, some people calling themselves satanists do indeed equate abortion to child sacrifice and way too many women nowadays equate abortion with birth control and "forget" that an embryo might not have the same degree of conscience as a baby or toddler but it's still a life.
But then if they're right and killing a child even not born yet and not even conscious of his own existence is wrong and goes against morality and against God will then how can they justify Abraham all but killing his son Isaac ? How can they justify God asking for this sacrifice at all ?
But its not human its a clump of cells till its formed
It was his Son, so he wanted to see in my estimation if he would love him over his most prized possession. The only thing I don’t understand about this and Job, is why he would even expect this of them seeing he already knew their heart. He knew what they would do.
I’m going to assume you haven’t read the scriptures as your responds astounds me and confounds me in the sense that I cannot fathom anyone not understanding and even taking the story of Abraham and coming to such a polarizing conclusion
* Abraham used to worship false gods before God revealed himself to him
* ritualistically sacrifices were the norm when it came to appeasing these false deities
* God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son for a couple of reasons
1. To show Abraham that God was not like other deities, God despises killing
2. As a precursor/foreshadowing of his eventual fulfillment of prophecy aka God sacrificing his only son for the sins of mankind
3. To show the immense gravity of what it means for a father to give up his only son for the benefit of the greater good, God didn’t allow Abraham to go through with the sacrifice but instead told Abraham God will provide and thus he did, he provided a ram to sacrifice to show the gravity of sin and its consequence aka death, but the ram is not enough to cover the sins of all mankind as such God sent the lamb who would take on the sins of humanity Jesus Christ
@JezaGaia
@@japexican007 you were replying to her video right?
@@japexican007 In the story of Abraham and Isaac, Abraham, following god's directions, invents the scapegoat ritual.
It was not long after this that human scapegoat rituals became commonplace! (Including the scapegoat ritual involving your Jesus, if we grant, for the sake of argument, that he ever even existed!) This is a ritual which punishes the innocent so the guilty can go free, which can only ever perpetuate evil... This is far from 'moral'!
And mere, unthinking, obedience is the 'virtue' of a donkey!
See my other two posts (above) on these thoughts... I explain them in a bit more detail.
Great analysis
Jeffrey Kaplan’s philosophic discussion of Plato’s Euthyphro is exactly on this topic.
Personally I was so conflicted about my stance on the Israel and Palestine situation. I know that Israel is the one in the wrong and that I could never support them but the way so many Christians defend Israel to death just because they're God's chosen people made me seriously question myself. I was genuinely having thoughts like "If God wants me to support Israel he probably knows something I don't" and trying to justify supporting genocide because God wants me to. Left Christianity and have never been happier. Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Same here
Sadly I came up with same conclusion: God wants blind obidicence over anything. Just go and see what he did to Saul in Samuel book. He also hates being tested but tests us. Sadly many christians don't get it, but Paul do says in one of his letters that once we're forgiven of sin, we become God's slave (1 Cor 7:21-22). Seems like God is more love for himself and not for his creations...tho, He does sometimes show love to us, but not much.
Better to be alive than dead. Why slap God in the face for having created you ? (unless society has inflicted depression or some other terrible suffering upon you that has destroyed your joy in being alive)
God wants us to be eternally blissful in Heaven.
That looks like generous love to me.
@@tonybuck1225 Ok, He wants that. But then why did he create a system so hard and harsh? why will we just glorify Him there? Couldn't God made us to be in Heaven the moment He created us?
Was at a family event last night where there was worship and it brought back fond memories of when I was a Christian. Your videos keep the truth in perspective. No matter how attractive modern Christianity can be, it isn’t consistent with the OT god or the one found in revelation.
great video....I would love to have your ability of expressing these facts 🙂
Christian: I believe the entire Bible! It’s stood the test of time and I use it as my objective moral standard for morality!
Me: So when was the last time you stoned a none virgin bride for not being a virgin?
Or when was the last time you killed a rape victim because she didn’t “cry out?”
Christian: well, you have to understand that this was the Old Testament and those people had different laws and rules then and you can’t judge them by our standards of behavior today.
While in the Gospel of Mathew Chapter No. 5 Verse No. 17 to 20, Jesus Christ said that:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the Prophets - I have come not to destroy, but to fulfill."
@@youtubeuser9168 Yes - to show their full meaning: which is merciful and compassionate.
@@tonybuck1225 please deal with what I said
I believe in Jesus Christ. In the Bible, only in consequence.
And only as understood in the light shone by Jesus Christ.
You believe in fiction @@tonybuck1225.
You have never once actually personally experienced the light of Jesus Christ.
So...the Euthyphro dilemma. Here's how to turn the Euthyphro dilemma into a trilemma to set a trap for Xians who say we should base our morality "on God's will." Challenge the Xian thusly: "Hypothetical situation: your god _orders_ you to immediately go and kill the unfamiliar family next-door. The parents, the teen, the tween, the toddler, the baby _and the family dog._ Kill them all! Will you obey, yes or no?!" Of course, you already know they despise either option and, after a moment of cognitive dissonance, will predictably answer with some form of, "God wouldn't do that." Then you're response is, "Aha! So Man _can_ judge God! Good, then anyone can note all the biblical slavery, torture and carnage by God's hand & command and _righteously_ judge God - and Jesus via trinitarianism - to be a malicious, malevolent, mass-murdering monster. Also, God _does_ do that, all through the Old Testament: compels people to kill others, so if your god 'wouldn't do that,' then your god _cannot be the biblical god!_ Would you like to change your answer?"
First you set ze trap. Then you _snap_ ze trap! Works every time! 😄
Well no, since you're wilfully misunderstanding the Bible.
¿And you, @@tonybuck1225, actually believe you properly understand the Bible?
What a joke.
Wake up to the fact that all you do is parrot talking points you've been indoctrinated into.
Hello Max I asked my Christian councellor something similar. She said God would not do or say something like that. I reminded her or the story of Sapphira and whatsisname who died because they lied about keeping money held back. This was after Jesus death. Yet they could not be saved and were killed. So they lied when asked. After Christ's supposedly ultimate victory, is God trying to tell us that there was no better way to deal with these two people? Christ died for sins once for all?
Kristi telling it like it is!!! You're the best, keep it up!!! So many people need to hear you!!!!!
I read Plato's Euthyphro mainly as a rejection of the view that morality derives from authority and consists in obedience.
Spot on, as usual! Kristi, I wish you could have a live debate with a leading apologist to expound on matters of morality, especially on the topic of "objective moral values" on which learned people like W.L. Craig tread with impunity (and on which they are so patently wrong). Do you think you could do that?
Thanks for calling to my attention that the main duty of a Bible believer is to obey. We are not to question god’s commands no matter how evil they appear to us. What a bunch of bs; and I used to be a Christian?!
Which of the Ten Commandments appear evil to you ?
@@tonybuck1225 Don't confuse commands with commandments.
The object of Christianity is to help us obey God (which is a choice that you have) and to be of service to fellow men. The commandments are divided into those two. The morality that you are talking about is an interesting angle. My morality is different from yours. Matters Christianity aside, in Africa, where I am, it is considered highly immoral to use the term BS on anything. Despite what you think about yourself, you would come off as a rude, selfish and immoral person. Thus immorality should not be subjective as per your standard or society's standard but as per a single sources standard
@@erickwilsonwafula8436I had that term used on me here as a Christian, when I answered some questions from a man, after he asked me some questions. I figured, he didn't want to understand what I said, but thought I would still try. He just wrote it off as bs because his mind is closed. It's understandable, we're in enemy territory.
Atheism has a way of cheapening things.
@@kevinmalone3210 Religion also has its own way of cheapening things .I think cheapening things might be a human trait, available anywhere .
The part that really bothers me about the story of Abraham is that Christians treat it as God intervened so no harm no foul. A child was just traumatized by the fact that his father, one of two people who by nature he would trust the most with his safety and well being, just tried to murder him. Not only does Isaac learn his own father would murder him, but he now has to live an sleep under the same roof of his potential murderer.
Yes, that occurred to me, too. I mean if it was all about stopping human sacrifice, which was the story I was told, then couldn't god have gotten that message across without causing huge trauma to both father and son? Just shows that the Abrahamic god is a sadist, as far as I can see.
And the trauma to his wife. She had to keep sleeping with a man who was willing to kill her child because he heard voices in his head.
And a lifetime of anxiety and fear
Great video 👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾
Thanks 👍
Good explanation 👏
It can't be objective when God literally changes his mind throughout the Bible
It is beyond absurd - and monstrously arrogant - to imagine one can devise or find a better code of morality than that of Jesus Christ.
so color me beyond absurd.
My morality comes from integrity, empathy and compassion. No deities or gods needed. I was born inherently good
@@undrwatropium3724 Inherently good, but (like the rest of us) Fallen, thus prone to evil.
Your integrity, empathy and compassion are gifts from God. You wouldn't have them otherwise. Nor would anyone else.
@@tonybuck1225We realize that’s your dogma, but how do you know that any of it is true? Why do other social animal species exhibit all of these traits as well, to an extent and complexity in direct proportion to the size of their brains?
Perfectly moral Kris. You deserve my praise. Good girl.