United Methodism, Albert Mohler, and Slippery Slopes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2024
- Here's a quick response to Albert Mohler's concern that the UMC liberalization is connected its stance on women in ministry.
Here's Mohler's podcast/article - albertmohler.com/2024/05/02/b... - บันเทิง
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Well said, Andy. As a conservative evangelical Wesleyan, I think the biblical case for women in pastoral leadership roles is very solid. I've heard this argument before from complementarians, that affirming women in ministry is an inevitable slippery slope that has led to LGBTQ affirmation. It's unhelpful and opportunistic and just plain wrong, and you're right to push back. You've responded with grace and humility. Thank you.
Hi Andy (and everyone in the comments) My name is Sean McLeod. My bride and I recently become GMC pastors coming form the UMC. I was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition and was a faithful member of the Church of the Nazarene for over a decade. I too saw Dr. Mohler's comments on his show. I was not really surprised. I did wonder if he was aware that the Church of the Nazarene also ordains women and has, even under pressure, remained faithful to Scripture on other issues? Of course you mention the Salvation Army as well. Looking forward to getting to know your program better. I am very familiar with WBS through the holiness camp meeting where I first started following Jesus, Camp Sychar in Ohio.
Andy, you did a good job of making the distinction. It’s not exactly a slippery slope when there is a huge bump on the way as described clearly in Romans 1. There is no such bump for women in ministry, but we do need to be careful when accepting any human into ministry and not let any worldly paradigms blind our eyes from discernment. There are many men and women who should not be in ministry, let us be faithful as watchers. We are promised,or warned about many coming false christs and prophets. Many are already in place and are deceivers. They are here and difficult to spot. It wouldn’t be deception if it was easy to spot.
Andy, I am grateful for your willingness to wrestle with these issues and particularly just wanted to offer an affirming voice in the comments among all of the disenting voices.
Many of those who would bemoan false-equivalencies between lgbt and civil rights issues now offer their own false equivalencies relating to women in the pulpit.
I am also grateful for the sincerity, ecuminality, and gentleness with which you approach this theological dispute with our friends in the faith.
Marching on!
I agree. And I am a God fearing, Bible believing sinner. I am just not comfortable in saying someone else’s interpretation is wrong, and mine is right. The grace you showed in your video is a great example of how to discuss differences in biblical interpretations.
I think limiting women to prohibit certain titles matter less than the Holy Spirit giving particular gifts that they operated in. All people who have roles in church need others who are leaders as oversight as was done from the beginning in the church. As a long time Pentecostal I don’t have the traditions of Methodism but feel the kinship of all believers. May all things be done prayerfully and in love. Much blessing to all.
I saw statements from Methodist Bishops pointing out that they were the only major denomination that ordained women but did not embrace ALPHABET clergy. I also note that the UMC "queer caucus" put out a meme identifying members by first names and 3/4 were women. I used to obey, but not understand, our prohibition on women clergy. After watching the UMC crackup in real time, I now understand the wisdom of the ban. Yes, there was a combination of factors. The UMC lost control of the seminaries, the seminaries then produced infiltrators, a disproportionate number of whom were women.
Dr. Moller is 100% right. The UMC never grew. Never. One of the critical reasons was the failure to hold to biblical inerrancy.
Many Wesleyan's hold to inerrancy.
No he's not....
In the passages you go through where are women serving as a pastor? Active in ministry is separate from pastor. Even the role of deacon is separate from the role as pastor. Many of the citations you listed are in the category of deacon either explicitly or implicitly.
Also, how do you deal with Paul’s explanation of why he has prohibited women to assume authority over man in 1 Tim 2:11-15. I think the appeal to God’s created order is compelling in the argument that the office of pastor (Elder, Bishop, Overseer). The argument that we as followers should submit to God’s created order and design for humanity is a central issue in the UMC debates.
I would love to see a video where you walk through these scriptures in an exegetical context.
Keep up the great conversation!
My response isn't a full exegetical case because that has already been done. Women are clearly preaching and leading in the NT, so we evaluate passages in 1 Tim 2:11-15 in the canonical dialogue, like I briefly described. I am not trying get into the argument about women in ministry, but suggesting that Mohler is off by saying the Wesleyan tradition, or the UMC, is on a slippery slope. The main problem was theological liberalism at the start of the UMC in 1968.
@@andymilleriii I didn’t get your point of pluralism c. 1968 when I watched the video. I was able to pick up on a discussion over biblical interpretation which seemed to take up a lot of the discussion.
When I served in the UMC and had questions about LGBTQ issues the logic used by the ministers around me was similar to the biblical/contextual argument used for women pastors (as I currently understand the argument). I can only speak from my personal experiences but these conversations made me readdress this interpretation style because it lead the church out of normative orthodoxy and othopraxy.
The distinction that Mohler and other Baptist/Calvinist’s make is not that women are prohibited to serve in ministry at all but rather are prohibited from one specific office in the church. Paul explains this prohibition in light of the fall in Genesis based on God’s designed order.
The references listed do not showcase women holding the office of pastor. We see women teaching, supporting financially, deacons, missions, evangelists, holding high offices in the government in the scriptures listed.
I struggle to see women in the office of pastor based on scripture. If you have a good resource I would like to understand the Wesleyan understanding better. I too struggle with the extreme ends of understanding these scriptures (women not allowed to teach in any capacity) as some Baptist hold. But as I understand Mohler’s argument he is discussing the official role of pastor (overseer) not stating that women are not allowed to be in official ministry in the church.
Spot on.
You can't use a contextually determined argument (which is what epistles are) simply as a simple argument. If you don't have an evaluation process is your hermeneutic, then interpretive fallacies are just around the corner.
@@CrabtreeJK See Dr. @davschreiner and his note below. I am sorry that some Wesleyan tradition (Jeff, the traditions with which we both have experiences) sometime fall back in arguments based in critical theory and postmodernism rather than in the hermeneutical basis which is must stronger. Essentially, looking at Phoebe, Junia, and Priscilla leads us to think that there isn't a consistent application of these passages in the NT for church leadership. I'd recommend you see my podcasts with Murray Vasser and Matt O'Reilly for more on this topic. Ben Witherington's work on women in the early church (Cambridge Press) and Ninja Gupta's recent 'Tell Her Story.' Looking at the canonical dialogue on this subject leads me to see the prohibitive passages as contextually bound.
Modern day churches "reinterpret" the Bible to align with pop culture. If you do not like part of the Bible just reinterpret to suit your desire.
Mohler is totally correct. once folks start deciding what parts of the bible they will follow and what parts they will ignore, it’s just a matter of time when everything is up for debate.
No. He's not. Mohler is a talking head that needs to have better talking points.
They're already doing that. They are creating their own church in their own image and falling away. This shouldnt be a surprise though since we were told this would happen.
Dr. Mohler is spot on. There are no female pastors in the Bible. To say there is is adding to the scriptures. Scripture couldn’t be more clear, if you don’t create your own “ truth”. Women have their place in ministry but it’s not to lead or teach men in the church. God’s design has purpose and order for a reason.
Mohler's position is boring and uninspiring. It lacks an awareness of how these texts function in the ancient world and the Canon.
@@daveschreiner7180sounds like youre saying scripture is outdated and non-inclusive. You would like more diversity, equity and inclusion added to the scripture? The Word needs to be updated for a modern audience? God's word changes with the times?
Perhaps I am missing your point but it seems like you're saying the reason why Wesleyans/Methodists endorse women for pastoral ministry is because of the Bible, not contrary to it. Okay then, what do you do with the passages to which Mohler might refer that are clearly prohibitive? Can the exegesis support this obvious contradiction, or is it possible that the women of the Bible to which progressives point are serving a specific purpose in God's plan that should not be confused with a call to pastoral ministry? I see Phebe being called a prophetess, not a pastor/teacher. Just sayin'.
I evaluate those passages in light of the canonical dialogue. Mohler and I may disagree , but the entire tradition isn't poised for this kind of liberalization. The UMC went this way because of its explicit pluralism at its founding in 1968.
Can’t you evaluate all controversial Bible passages by the canonical dialogue or historical settings in which it’s placed? I understand what you are saying, but you are doing exactly what Mohler is talking about. Whether we nitpick Mosaic Law, or say that “Matthew 22:36-40 is a reset to a new age”, aren’t we picking and choosing?
@@michaelnanney9160 every passage is interpreted in its context. Mohler does this too in that women are not silent in most baptism churches. Reading a text in context is getting to its meaning.
The issue is women being a Pastor not them being in ministry. I am afraid culture has had an unbiblical influence in the UMC. What’s next?? Just hold on it’s just around the corner. It’s the old boiling the frog analogy and its not going to stop at LBQ...
Never understood this dichotomy. "They're ministers but not preachers." What does this even mean? Sounds like a category created by people who have to justify the reality of women in leadership in the early church but don't like it...
Mohler loses the plot here. These arguments fail to grasp the necessary nuance and the fundamental literary realities of these texts. You cant just say "plain sense" without an awareness of literary qualities. Slippery slope argument is the most overused trope in theological discourse. Mohler should do better here.