What Should Trapped Congregations Do? - A Conversation with Scott Field of the WCA
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ค. 2024
- Rev. Dr. Scott Field has long worked toward Methodist reform and renewal. He served as a pastor in the Northern Illinois Conference of the United Methodist Church for 41 years. Scott served on the Board of Directors of Good News for 15 years and, along with an outstanding team, led the Reform and Renewal Coalition efforts at four UMC General Conferences. He, along with his wife Lynda, were the local arrangement organizers for the inaugural gathering of the Wesleyan Covenant Association in Chicago in 2016 with 1800 in attendance.
Scott also took the lead to form the Northern Illinois Regional Chapter of the Wesleyan Covenant Association and worked voluntarily there for the last seven (7) years. His days were spent working within northern Illinois to inform, connect, advise, and resource Methodists in the disaffiliation process for separation from the United Methodist denomination. Scott retired from the UMC in 2019.
Scott has been a part of the Leadership Council of the Great Lakes Provisional Annual Conference, and also serves on the Great Lakes Board of Ministry both of the Global Methodist Church.
Links:
The Wesleyan Covenant Association - wesleyancovenant.org/ - บันเทิง
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Pray for Surf City Church in Huntington Beach, CA. Held hostage by the UMC.
🙏🙏🙏 prayers for you and others. Know that many care about you.
We were in San Diego a few years back and wanted to attend Sunday services. Online one after the other UMC congregations were all Rainbow depot. Finally we found one about 25 minutes away. What a wonderful service. No agenda other than Jesus!. I pray for those folks routinely.
Sue, stop all donations immediately. Give only what is required and prepare to close. Sue the UMC it's now appropriate and ugly and they deserve it.
After church meet in the parking lot. Vote to leave. Leave, and all the power of that church is gone. It’s not hard. Then contact the GMC to see what options your group now has. If a congregation of 100-200 want to plant it will happen.
@@CFCMahomet Well spoken. But in many expensive areas (like here in coastal California), there is simply no affordable space to rent, let alone land to purchase. Going rate for a small/medium worship space Sundays only is low five figures/month in California. That's the whole church budget for most small/medium churches.
My heart has been heavily burdened by what has happened in the UMC (I attend a Free Methodist Church), so these discussions are helpful to me. I absolutely LOVE Scott's prayer strategy of asking God to "Revive or Remove"! I plan to adapt that strategy into my prayers as well.
Formerly PC(USA) here (and growing up, attended a UMC congregation that exited as soon as 2553 was available) and that is my prayer, too, for BOTH denominations and their ungodly leadership.
Scott Fields has been an awesome guest. Ink pen clicking and all. The plain talk without fluff is such a blessing. The answer at 28:17 is exactly right. Keep up the good work Rickman. God Bless!!
Our family left the UMC two years ago. We are attending a Southern Baptist church now.
I'm not a Methodist but lately I have found what's going on fascinating! I was raised as a Disciple (First Christian Church) but started going to a Church of Christ about a dozen years ago. Back before the turn of the century both churches were one but separated around the turn of the century. The gripe? The church organ. Some churches wanted organs and some didn't. So they split....and faced the same problem that Methodists have today. Who gets the church and who gets the shaft? The difference, in my mind was the reason for the split was very silly in the case of the Christian Church. Not so silly in today's Methodist church. It's very evident to me that the Methodist church awhile back looked the other way when the devil got its nose under the tent. Splitting today includes matters of good and evil big time.
So, good luck guys. Even though I'm not in your church I'd bite a snake if it would help. Just gotta tough through it using the Bible as a guide. In the end whatever is left of the UMC will only be some kind of evil circus act. Unfortunately.
Im dissafiliated already, but I felt like "tearing my robe" and lamenting in dust and ashes watching UMC GC. Sackcloth and shackles protest seems appropriate response at this point to me.
Thank you for facilitating Rev Jeffrey, and thank you President Scott. This is a great overview for those of us yearning to receive the new brothers and sisters.
The conference “fix” was in. I couldn’t have more disdain over the UMC if I tried.
The sexual stuff notwithstanding...the UMC straight up lied to congregations.
Yes... There is no way the 76% vote for approval is representative of the membership at large. The leadership straight up stacked the deck at General Conference.
@@GasCityGuy Yes, that, but I'm specifically referring to the promises regarding the 2019 meeting. The rules weren't enforced, the Discipline was ignored, and the commitments made to the traditionalists were abandoned.
The scary part of the General Conference was the DEI team assuring everyone they were just "monitoring, not policing". Yet everyone who strayed from the DEI approved words and phrases were quickly spoken to... just to discuss what was said. Now that the policy is in place, the DEI team will expand even more to make sure every church stays in line.
Just leave. Less members means less tithing means less money to the UMC
Amen..you can always form a New church plant with the ones who leave.. I've seen several churches formed in that way..
I left as did many others.
I would not trust one Bishop/ Bureaucrat. Even centralists Bishops will not stand against the majority of their fellow Bishops and that is where their loyalty is placed. Don’t trust them.
This is one, and only one, reason the American Baptist Convention churches own their property.
It says such terrible things about the historical leadership of the UMC that they would establish coercive measures like this on the faithful, then deliver these terrible powers into the hands of heretics.
As always…great interview. Thank you.
Thank you both -very informative and helpful as always. I'll be praying for you.
This involves leaving and keeping your building correct, because anybody can leave if they want.
Yeah of course. This is still America. Yes, it involves whether or not church communities can continue to administer the treasures entrusted to them by previous generations, or if they will be in a position to abandon these things in order to leave the denomination.
The people of the local churches paid for, repaired, put their own sweat and funds and labor into their churches. The UMC basically got their apportionment MONEY, and because of the trust clause, the UMC owns the property. DONE. Yes, it was agreed to put the trust clause in and sign the church and property over….no expectation on where the UMC would go or what they would do. It was inconceivable many years ago. We trusted they would stay Biblical and not worldly. So much for the “Trust Clause”. It was left in a trust that has been broken.
Thank you, Jeffrey. Our congregation is choosing to stay and be witnesses in Babylon. I will look for Scott Field’s video “Leading from the Second Chair” video at end of June.
Bishop Scott Field. Lord Jesus gives great favor...
Not a member of your church but my grandmother was. I belong to the Christian missionaries alliance. I praying for you
Parsonage situation was and is the same in the US. We were at great risk of losing our home during disaffiliation. Love the points about the burning house and saving those left behind.
Thank you for posting these videos. I've told you before that my church is one that is being held hostage by the Alabama west Florida conference umc (I no longer use caps).
RICO, no doubt , the more they refuse to let churches go. Repeatedly it's evident. To think that they make you pay to take your church back, that you built???
Inspiring stuff, then I trust useful stuff. I Listened to 20 minutes while exercising. Will have to pick up the rest next session.
At 6:50 thank you so much for blessing my morning with exactly what I needed. At 9:33 wow. Isn't faith that Jesus is your personal Saviour sufficient?
This is the Lord’s battle and not ours because this is so much bigger than us.
They should stop tithing and cut off UMCs cash flow
Who's "they?"
Unless the tithing is going to building maintenance and staff payroll. Don’t pay apportionments to the UMC, that’s the thing to not pay.
@@paulcooper8335 trapped congregations
I'm going to tithe to a local Food Bank instead of the UMC.
Change to a good church
From the UMC revised social principles "whenever significant differences of opinion occur among Christians, some of which continue to divide the church deeply today, faithful Christians need to face their disagreements and even their despair, and not cover differences with false claims of consensus or unanimity"...
I expected them to win the votes, but I expected some grace about diversity of ideas, and haven't felt that yet in any of their published messages. We'll see how our annual conference goes. There is a zoom meeting for SUSUMC this Thursday evening to talk (hopefully not be told) about the general conference effects.
As a former PC(USA), I've been warning my faithful UMC brethren to expect what these ungodly leaders have been doing. They are hypocritically big on diversity of thought, except their actions almost always reveal otherwise. When they do agree with us on something, I came to view it as pure accident, or they went too far and had to reel it back, only for another agency a few days later to confirm that it was an accident.
Are there any GMC churches in Cincinnati or Northern Kentucky? The very small, very conservative church I grew up in and another large, more moderate church I attended in the area both refused to even consider disaffiliating, and I'm not aware of any churches in the area that decided to leave the UMC. It seemed like Ohio (especially western Ohio) churches mostly decided to just do nothing without even getting input from their congregations. Am I missing something?
I'm in the same boat as you are.... as there are no GM churches anywhere near me. I have searched and exhausted all ways to find out. It seems to be a big secret which UM Churches are pulling away. This morning I had a MELTDOWN. I haven't heard any info from my present church . I doknow that my church is called a BRIDGE CHURCH. ( not interested) They will not eventually leave. I'm stuck. Hope it goes well with you. By the way, I too was raised in a Disciples of Christ Church. Joined UMC when there were no DOC where we lived.
@plainspokenpod are you going to make a “highlight” reel of GC?
Nope. I hate editing video. When I have the money to hire a video editor, then I’ll do content like that.
I am not UMC, and really don’t understand the idea that you cannot leave. Just stop attending there and attend together in another context. How far have we wandered when we cannot understand how to navigate faith apart from the organization.
I’m confused about anyone claiming to be a Christian and saying the UMC is where they’d want to stay. But, I’ve thought that long long before this all started. They are so far removed from the Wesleys.
If y’all want a good laugh watch the debriefing video of Bartlett UMC. The preacher describing the outcome says “don’t worry they’re not gonna force us to have gay weddings and preachers here at Bartlett! Stay with the UMC”. He’s like a southern democrat in the 60’s “don’t worry about the national democrat party we won’t have to integrate the blacks down here in the south - stick with the Democrat party!” 😆😆😆
I know what you mean, but don't put these wild liberals on the side of civil rights fighters. That's how they want to see themselves. Violating the clear teaching of the gospel is nothing like being black. Banning gay marriage and opposing gay married lesbians as bishops is nothing like imposing apartheid. But that is the (false) analogy liberals keep making for themselves.
I don’t much like that example of Southern Democrats, but I did go watch that Bartlett UMC video, and that was 38 minutes of pure comedy gold! I’ve never heard so many lies so boldly and so quickly. If wearing trousers could be turned into a lie, that guy would have done it.
It’s laughable that this pastor thinks the Book of Discipline will keep a pastor or church from having to do gay weddings. He must not have been paying attention for the past 10 years when the UMC leaders were completely ignoring the BofD.
@@dwcoyote - Yeah. I know, right. They will ignore the several books of The Bible, but somehow the Book of Discipline is going to make them stop......😆 🤣 😂
I was amazed at the level of denial still being presented to these parishioners. I’m also very curious about their praise for Bishop Graves. Wasn’t he pretty underhanded to GC delegates who wanted to speak the truth?
Both UMC and GMC should go their own way if they can't get along and stop trying to stir up dissent in the other... it's sad that social issues and politics have ruined families and churches.
Identity is negotiated in dialogue with others. We figure out who we are by discerning what we aren’t. We do that by looking at exemplars of what we find objectionable. I would agree that much of the rancor is unhelpful and unnecessary, but I am in favor of a robust dialogue about things we see wrong with the other (and with ourselves). I would like to think I model doing this well, though I’m sure I have failed to reach perfection in this effort.
I am not sure what to make of President Scott's talk. I came away feeling that the chief disagreement between UMC and GMC is one of policy. I did not get the feeling that Rev. Scott believes that the UMC has committed serious theological error. His statement that the WCA or GMC would not plant churches in formerly UMC areas is particularly disturbing. Does he prefer that UMC members be left in their sins? Or does he believe the UMC has not committed error? I am a lay person, but it seems that the UMC has committed at least heresy and may have entered into apostasy. I am afraid that I cannot take Rev. Scott and the WCA very seriously.
I think that the WCA is just a bit shell-shocked at this moment. It time for the laity in the churches to assert themselves.
The UMC blew straight through heresy, barely looked over their shoulder as they passed apostasy, and is proudly arriving at abomination.
Simple, walk away from the abomination of the desolation. The UMC does not worship Christ. They are criminals against God's Word. If you love Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God who took upon flesh on Earth, who was the Word even before man was created, the Great I Am, how can one possibly associate with those who defy God's Word, defy Jesus? Their salvation is lost and those who embrace this world and walk through the abomination of the desolation are bound for the Lake of Fire, an eternal separation from God. And those who pretend to preach otherwise walk with the Antichrist. Shame on them!
What would a letter to Bishop John Schol look like?
I think churches who are hanging to leave and plant new find a near by (same area) GMC church and become a parish so that there is support a long the way
Meditating on Jude 1 today and praying I would have an attitude of mercy for those being led astray while also not condoning their sin.
Keep Yourselves in the Love of God
17 ¶ But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."
19 It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit;
21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And convince some, who doubt;
23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 ¶ Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing,
25 to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen. (RSV)
Who in the congregation is held responsible for the building if everyone just ups and leaves? If I were a member of a UMC church, I would drop my membership and find another church. That simple. If all the congregation made personal decisions to leave, what could the UMC leadership do to them?
The annual conference's board of trustees will assume direct responsibility for any abandoned properties. This will almost certainly be taking place in lots of conferences at a higher frequency than has already been. Many congregations will indeed make the decision you are advocating here, but the cost is pretty great. Many churches have endowments and memorial gifts that were meant to glorify God in memory of people who built and maintained those churches. To leave those things behind and start the ministry afresh is essentially to cut themselves off from the work of previous generations. It is my mind that worshiping the Lord in spirit and in truth is more important than honoring the legacy of those who came before. Even so, I think we should only make such a choice when there is no other way. It really hurts to turn one's back on the past. Sometimes it is a holy hurt, but sometimes it is an unnecessary hurt. This is what hundreds or thousands of congregations are figuring out right now.
@@plainspokenpod We seniors have had to say goodbye to a lot of our past, haven't We? But I have found that we gain a deeper trust and joy in God's eternal treasures, especially his word.
Just keep proclaiming the Gospel while we still have time.
@@laurenkuo2333Well said.
Jeffrey, this information MAY not be absolutely correct…..but, I understand there is (was) a group of African pastors, (who, I think, were at the General Conference). They are from countries that have a Muslim majority, and in these countries the law (not talking about Sharia law) makes leaders (Pastors) of churches that support the Alphabet group(s) liable for arrest, when they set foot back into their countries (when they return). So far, nineteen of the 42 have already been arrested.
Would you share a link to your source of this information? This is terrible news. Just wondering if this law would include the African bishops that support the UMC changes in favor of the "alphabet" people?
No way I am not leaving they are not going to close our church home with this black mail our church is going to focus on God and Continue to praise Him first our congregation and Pastor love each other we are a fellow ship family God save us and our great Methodism God help us is my prayer
Nice. Keep me updated with how things go here. Send emails to plainspokenpod@gmail.com. May God bless your church as you stay to be faithful to scripture.
At this point they are screwed. If you want out now, give up the building and leave.
I learned this last week that local congregations can still hypothetically negotiate their way out with their annual conference. I'm waiting to see if any conferences allow this to take place outside of ¶2549.
All UMC left congregations must join with traditional church. But should not go to another Methodist church.
That was quite an accomplishment for the UMC to get the Africans to fund the pro-gay social principles. 49:14.
😭😭😭😭😭
I was baptized and confirmed in a Holston Conference church. Yesterday the pastor of my childhood church posted a YT video titled “Holston Clergy General Conference Debrief.” They may have allowed for late disaffiliation last summer, but they certainly are excited about “expanding the table” as Bishop Wallace-Padgett says more than once. 😢
Yeah I saw that they are trying to honor promises made. I sure hope they can. So many churches are about to be trapped unless something incredible happens.
@@plainspokenpod as you know, my husband and I are from the Holston Conference. I always felt like our “former” Bishop was more conservative. We have friends that are still In the UMC and are kind of ok with the changes. Others of my friends want to leave but have 90+year old parents that are confused, and it would be hard for them to leave their life-long church while they are still caring for their parents. So sad. Also, that church has very few members. Some have left a couple of years ago. It has wonderful people, and I hope they don’t close it. Beautiful parsonage, barn,church.
@Plainspokenpod…5K. So glad people are benefitting from your TH-cam. Keep doing what you do. .
Revelation 22:16-21
Takes care of this fake religious building. They will be held accountable & those who stayed also. Unless The Holy Spirit changes the heart there is NO JESUS.
Cover up how mean you abuser is for fear that they will be mean? Or force underhanded people to operate in the open? I don't get the debate.
Yeah that is kind of it. Vast majority of churches and their people, including clergy, are very worried about the UMC leadership behaving badly when they are exposed. They hope that, by helping them save face, they will be inclined to play ball. But it doesn't play out that way...
True, very rare to hear testimony that truly says they experienced changed of heart and mind. There was a real transformation. They experienced the real salvation. I used to be a UMC member &, I rarely heard the testimonies of my co-members. 😢 Majority has not encountered God (at my church), but they claimed they are Christian and they are saved.
As xy25765 said just leave. Find a new church. I know it’s hard and painful you have given so much to fellowship. But the UMC left you and put you out to dry.
I know its easy to say leave. I was fortunate to belong to a church that disaffiliated. I feel so bad for churches that could not due to expenses.
What I don’t understand is the “I’m a part of a connected church” argument. Sounds like a way to hide behind forming a theological position yourself.
Your congregation wants you to show them from scripture how to deal with a worldview.
Ideally, denominations are composed of congregations that have done that theological work to decide what they believe, then they banded together with other churches to share and defend the same doctrine. Unfortunately, when that doctrine is not taught, then congregations lose their shared identity and spread out, being unsustainable. This is what happened in many denominations in the 20th century. We are seeing the fallout that comes when catechesis is neglected. We should indeed reclaim only what doctrines can be supplied from scripture.
Answer; go to Holy Orthodoxy.
Eastern Orthodoxy is cool. I love a lot of it. Just can't involve Mary, the saints, the angels, and relics into my spiritual life in that way. Have tried. Feels pretty clearly like idolatry. Just can't do it.
Jeffrey, at least 127 churches in Oklahoma disaffiliated. The NW Texas Conference has all but disappeared thru disaffiliations. There are similar results throughout the South. Does this sound like churches were held captive and kept from walking away? The disaffiliating churches were given a sweetheart deal in terms of their property and what they had to pay to take it with them. No one has been mistreated here. The best thing for us to do is to lay down our swords and quit butchering each other. Regardless of what Christian camp we’ve landed in we should focus on the mission God has given us and wish each other well.
As you know, there were many other conferences in which they refused to let churches exit. Also, in Oklahoma, there was exceptional interference with the richer or better located churches. If you ever hear me speaking falsely about the situation, the please correct me. I would like to think I’ll be receptive. But if your definition of butchering is just shining a light on what is transpiring, well, I think that is unfortunate, and I would disagree. Light is the best disinfectant.
@@plainspokenpod I would like to see a list of churches in Oklahoma that followed the required procedures for disaffiliation but were not allowed to proceed. There certainly can be no complaint about the Texas conferences over which Bishop Scott Jones was presiding. He immediately jumped into the GMC and took with him as many of his churches as he could. He even reportedly went to another conference and tried to get at least one of their churches to disaffiliate. Other active and retired bishops did the same. Retired bishop Bob Hayes was active in encouraging churches to disaffiliate. All in all, the disaffiliaters made quite a haul. They are evangelists for their cause. I’m glad they have created a church in which they are comfortable. Lots of us are happy to remain United Methodists, and that should be our right, too.
Texas was a special case, as its Supreme Court had previously ruled that the Trust Clause was not enforceable back when the Episcopal Church split up. So the UMC was limited in what it could charge disaffiliating churches that wanted to leave. Congregations in other states weren't so lucky. Some have been held hostage by bishops who refused to allow churches to disaffiliate or even discuss entering into a period of discernment. Others put the financial burden so high that congregations couldn't afford to leave.
@@SandyWylie-lg2vh In this very interview, Scott and I affirm that folks who are happy in the UMC should stay. We want you to stay. We don't want you to leave.
There was indeed more than one annual conference that was gracious in disposition with respect to local churches that wanted out. Oklahoma was almost one of these. However, it made overt power plays to manipulate the votes and retain the properties at Church of the Servant and Oklahoma City First. I did some decent coverage of both of these if you want to learn those details. I have also been in touch with Tishomingo, but I can't speak to their circumstances yet.
There were several annual conferences that either refused to use ¶2553 or made it so costly that it could not be used. Texas was at one far end of the continuum. Conferences like Baltimore-Washington and California-Pacific added a 50% property value tax that was prohibitively expensive. Conferences throughout the denomination had pastors who categorically refused to even allow the conversation, as well as DSes who refused to call the required church conferences. Fields says in this interview, and I tend to agree, that 40% of those churches still in the UMC would leave if they could. If the UMC doesn't let them, they are sealing their own fate of death. A collective body cannot continue forward if they are carrying anything close to that unwilling weight coercively.
@@plainspokenpod I’ve had a life’s journey that’s been both amazing and disheartening. My father and my wife’s father were both Methodist pastors. My father’s career stretched back to 1942, just after the merger of 1939 that created The Methodist Church. A case can be made that that merger was a mistake. It brought back together the Northerners and the Southerners, who had developed different ethoses since their separation in the 1840s. The Methodist Church from Day 1 was always at least 2 different churches under the same roof. I was ordained in Bridgeport, CT, in 1967 and have served in lots of different places including abroad. 1967 is a significant year since the following year saw the birth of the UMC. It was also the year when the steady decline of mainline churches started. So my career stretches to the birth of the UMC. I’ve had a ringside seat. Little did I know in 1967 that my church would decline for 57 straight years and then explode in a ball of fire. This whole thing is like the marriage/divorce phenomenon that we humans are all too familiar with. Two very different people get married. They are aware of their differences, but surely this will all work out. After all, they’re in love, and love conquers all. But as the years roll on, things unravel one bit at a time. There comes a time when separation seems to be the answer. In all divorces two things happen: (1) We all take sides. Surely the rupture is all the fault of one of the parties. (2) Regret and resentment claw at us and won’t let go. Bad feelings haunt us the rest of our lives. One unfortunate dynamic in this ecclesiastical divorce is that in our American culture religion and politics have virtually become fused. It’s a red/blue thing as much as it is theological. In any event, we all have to live with the disheartening divorces we experience. The best thing we can do is wish each other well and get on with our lives.
I feel much like King Arthur at the end of Camelot. Everything has gone wrong. The kingdom is in tatters. All he knows to do is to grab a young boy and tell him to spread a message: For one brief shining moment there was a place called Camelot.
It’s the beginning of of a one world church , and your church is getting it started!
Global Methodist were right to leave. I pray they will also see that women pastors are unbiblical.
The GMC is structurally fully egalitarian including women senior pastors.
Many in the GMC do see women pastors as unbiblical, but officially women pastors are allowed. I agree women should not be pastors over men, but do think they can preach if under the authority of a male pastor.
@@fernandoperez8587 Thank you for your response. That’s comforting. I have never been a Methodist before. Full blown egalitarianism (if I can put it that way) is a biblical challenge for me but my current church has hired a patriarch. Not a complimentarian. A patriarch so I have been attending a GMC church for about six months. Pastor is a man but they do let women preach. Have a wonderful day. 🌺
God made women with an awesome responsibility for giving life! The downfall of the Methodist church started with ordaining women as lead pastors. The leadership allowed social justice, and secular politics intercede for GOD's word. The approval of condoning open sinful homosexuals in the pulpit is the last straw in rebellion that destroyed a once great fellowship for spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I know it might seem like that female clergy was the catalyst, and it may factor into this a bit, but this problem is a much deeper theology error than that.
The UMC had been quite liberal for decades prior to them ordaining women.