You have a good plan. I am a big fan of putting lots of extra glass on old boats. Grind down to something as you've planned. Build up a ton of layers of fiberglass. If you haven't done fiberglass work before, start with some small project or try putting three or so layers wrapped all the way around the keel to gain some knowledge of how the glasscloth and resin work together, especially how to work the resin into the cloth so as to remove every last air bubble. The most critical thing with fiberglass is that you don't want any air bubbles at all between the layers. Air looks white and a good laminate goes almost transparent once all the air is out. If you find an air bubble, just grind down to it and lay a small patch of glass cloth in there and continue building up layers. The more the better. Structural things need a lot of thickness made from lots and lots of layers. If it was my boat, I'd put in more than a half inch of laminate over the top of it consisting of a couple dozen layers of glasscloth, then I'd consider it fixed forever but I'd pull up the floor and inspect it from time to time. Remember, you sailed the boat to where it is in this condition, once strengthened massively with a thick laminated structural member, its going to be a lot stronger than it was when you sailed it there from Florida.. Fiberglass fixes everything on a boat. Laying a lot of layers of glass over broken structural members will fix it as long as you sand, clean really good with acetone and tab out far enough to insure a good bond. Sand or grind a rounded corner on anything with an outside right angle and make about a one inch radius curve with fairing compound on any inside right angles because the glasscloth will not wrap around a right angled corner without leaving an air bubble under it which can compromise the adhesion of your repair. The stringers which are the structural supports inside the hull on a lot of newer boats are made of fiberglass laid over soft foam. The foam just defines the shape of the structural stringer and the many layers of fiberglass are the actual structural beam. In older boats with rotten wood stringers, you can fix it by laying up a thick laminate of many layers of glasscloth to build a fiberglass beam over the top of the rotted wood one. When stringers are fixed this way the floor may have to be raised an inch to accommodate the layers of glass on top of the stringers and tabbing sometimes carries out to almost make an inner hull if there is any question of rot in more wood than the stringer. My point is that fiberglass can be used as the structural members that hold the boat together. As long as you sand, clean and tab sufficiently to get a good bond, and put down enough layers to build up more than sufficient strength, you should have nothing to worry about. Otherwise hold on to the parts that float as the other comment said.
Looking at the aft lower area of your keel I would hazard a guess that your keel has suffered upward impact. Your grid is welded and on professionally welded structures the weld is stronger than the parent metal. Your grid appears to have been what we English call bodged in the past by slapping some glass fibre mat over the fractured metal. On that basis it’s unlikely you were responsible for the damage merely you have been honest enough to realise all is not well. A lead keel will declare itself by accepting scoring from an edge tool. Stainless steel will shower bright sparks when grinding. Remember that stainless bruises under impact and work hardens when being cut wether by machining or hand tools. You are doing OK. Stay honest in your endeavours and you will stay safe. I see you are receiving much valid advice from us Old Uns. That shows you have the right attitude. Isn’t that right chaps?
Stainless would of thrown sparks off when grinding it. Its lead. Others were staying hammer would dent it but lead scratches easy too just take a screwdriver and scratch it even alloys with zinc and the like to harden it will scratch easy. Not like a tiny mark when you nick your car it'll scratch deep enough to feel it with your hands. I wouldn't touch that keel much till you get the dust off read up on effects of lead poisoning. Lead dust is bad news
Now we are talking. If you think I may have been harsh on you earlier you are right. I like sailors, But I do not like dead wet sailors. That is why I was so harsh. I think you are doing the right thing. Fix the boat and fix it right so you can sail on a seaworthy boat. There is happiness on a seaworthy boat. I have subscribed. Yes the boat can be fixed on the hard. Do the best job you know how and don't take a short cut. I might be wrong on this, but if it were me I would wrap or encapsulate the metal part of the keel with the fiberglass part of the keel with more fiberglass. Make it one piece. If you are wondering if the keel is lead or stainless.. Stainless is very hard It might even ring if you tap it. Lead is very soft will go thud it you tap it with a hammer. You can scar it with a screwdriver or and awl. Just think about all that you will know when this is done.
Replacing the wood core of the ribs(grid) is not necessary as it don't offer much structural support. Many boats have foam ribbing. The key to the structural support is the fiberglass . Grind out the old and add 4 to 6 layers of woven roving. Extend the layers out from the ribs 10 inches to a foot. First layer about 4 inches out from the rib and for each layer add about 2 inches out. Use a laminating resin instead of a waxed resin. Don't waste time when laminating. wet out area, lay glass, wet out, (use a finn roller), and keep adding layers till done. Go for the strongest chemical bone as possible. I wipe the area down with styrene before starting the first layer. It helpes get a better bond more so than acetone and other thinners. Personally I haven noticed the difference if the boat is sitting in a cradle or in the water when it comes to these types of repair, the biggest difference is, if the boat is sitting in a cradle , you can control how much the keel drops before you grind out and repair.
Hello there ! … Good thing you talked to experts. First it really is not difficult to differentiate lead from stainless steel : lead is so soft that you can almost mark it with your finger nail !… Nail doesn't slip on lead, it does on SS. As for the the structural grid : yes it has to be redone from top to bottom and you cannot do that in the water. I don't think damage was done from lifting the boat, it is very old structural damage : although both experts are 150% right about the keel is made to be suspended, I don't thing the weight of the boat by itself would have caused the frames to break. To me it is most likely the boat pounded on the ground as it happens sometimes… At any rate discussion on the causes is pretty pointless now. Now your boat is like a house of which bricks only hold by the wallpaper ! This has to be fixed throughly. First you must build a cradle with two frames that follow the hull shape so that the boat doesn't rest on it's keel. Then strip all the wallpaper (i.e.; the fiberglass from the frames. You must find how those frames are made, their shape and material to figure out what to do newt. You also have to check how the longitudinal piece of timber (for want of a better word : technically they call it a "cabin", but I'm not so sure the word is still used now). My guess is that you need to see what between the frames and the keel itself : if this is rotten or full of osmosis or whatever it has to be replaced, or cleaned or whatever is needed to be done. You'll never know if you don't see it and touch it. Then you'll have to build and few new frames : this is pretty straightforward : laminated wood and epoxy work very well as is quite easy as shaping the the piece can be done where it will fit in the boat's bottom. Then you'll only have to take the piece off to plane and sand it before fixing it by gluing it and strewing it with epoxy. Regarding your strategy about how to add strength to the boat you have to use practical imagination alway keeping in mind that the structure has ti be better than the original one when it was new : after all it may well be a faulty design. The motto here is : too strong doesn't fail you … You're NOT on a racing project, so forget all those new innovations that are suitable for modern and NEW boats. This one is old and not modern : it's design is as old as any old mariner's song !… I feel I'm not really answering your issue : if I could I would gladly hop in a plane and check it out !… I little bit of sunshine would be a relief from the overcast stormy weather we have on the Channel now … lol As for why doing this job aground ? On the bottom line because access to both sides of the boat is essential : adding a new wallpaper on probably faulty bricks is useless. For practical reasons too : you cannot live on the boat afloat ; you'll be on constant errands and going ashore with the tender will literally swallow 40% of your time. I really wish you luck. Please if you need any detail, ask ! Good luck !
Doing the repairs to the grid while in the water is an option, But keep in mind 1: even the smallest leak will ruin the repair and 2: if you have A catastrophic failure there will be no hauling it out quickly. Find a way to cradle it, several sheets on 1in plywood glued and bolted together, used railroad ties from A home and garden center, Green timbers from A local mill, hell even the screw jacks strapped together and large pads of 1/2 in plywood will work in A pinch. Where there is the will there is A way.
Assuming the keel is lead I would not have taken it down to bare metal. Lead oxidizes almost as fast as you can sand it, and practically nothing will stick to the oxidization. Repainting bare lead keels is a nightmare that I would personally try to avoid. The sailboat was built on a stand so it makes sense to do the repair on a stand. The problem is that unless the sailboat and keel are properly supported you may be inadvertently pre-stressing the repaired area. When you put the sailboat back into it's natural water environment it may cause the repair to be under more stress than it would be if the repair was done with the sailboat on the water. It may be an insignificant or major difference depending on how well the hull and keel are supported during the repair.
Repairing in water is not a good idea. Blocking it is better as you would have access both above and below the boat. That keel is a couple thousand pounds, when you do your repairs, be prepared to support that weight as well. The repairs from previous owners look band-aided. Gut that part of the cabin (I'm sorry), get as much access to the top of the keel to scarf or use futtocks or supports to the frames to spread the load out to the boat as possible. Boat building hard woods might be available there, i don't know. Your reinforcing structural materials should be as close or compatible to the frames as possible. Though a good boaty hardwood won't cause galvonic corrosion. You guys have put a lot of work in, 👍👍
It's hard to see how much head room there is in the cabin where the keel grid is, but if you could make the ribs 4 or 6 inches deeper, that would add considerable strength. You may also be able to add more transverses between the existing ones. Greg
Tamara Lee we would have to lift the floorboards and there would be enough room to stand comfortable for us. We are exploring the option to add more transverse supports.
Bums on a Boat Hi, I saw your response. Actually ,I'm Greg Lee, Tamara's husband. I'm a naval architect, so I was interested to see your videos of the structural problems around your keel. The cracks in the transverses on your keel are at the top of the beam, which means the beam failed from bending. This makes sense since the load from the boat weight applied to the keel would make the beams push up. The point to consider for this issue is that, for resisting loads that cause bending in beams, the strength of a beam increases as the cube of its height. I'm guessing the height of the cracked beams at the crack location is about 6 inches. If you could double the height by increasing height by 6", then the strength against bending would increase by 2 X 2 X 2 = 8. That could offer a reliable long term fix for the keel. In any case, best of luck on whichever way you choose to fix. Also, I have subscribed, and I mashed the hell out of the thumbs up button. Greg
It sucks that this happened, but the key thing is that it IS repairable. And that you can doit without hiring it out. Keep your heads up and you'll be back on the water before you know it. Love this series and can't wait to see where life takes you guys next.
A stainless keel would be worth more than that entire boat new. Just by looking at it I can tell you it is lead. Lead is soft and leaves marks like yours from grinding. It would totally different if it was ground stainless steel.
You guy's are on the right track the worst job is the grinding of the glass in side that will all have to go back to timber or whatever supports are in there you will need to braise them and when you reglass them if you can obtain some Kevlar cloth it will help reinforce the keel mounts and try putting a 100 mm wide strip around the outside of the keel in 3 places to keep the two parts of your keel together & to check what your metal is use a magnet if it does not stick it is marine grade stainless.
I admire your determination. As I am repeating what others have said I am sure you will do what is necessary to make the keel repair correctly and remember your safety at sea is the most important consideration.
Sailing Uma had a similar problem. Their keel was loose with cracked internal structural supports. They made of video of the repairs you might find interesting.
@@Bumsonaboat I would be cautious going their route - unless I missed something - they did not do proper repairs on their keel. Correct me if I am wrong, but they just added layers to the keel area WITHOUT cutting away the damaged glass. It looked to be a patch job. Again, I could be wrong but that is what it appeared to be. The way their keel was wobbling, I would have removed the keel and redone the entire area that supports the keel, then re-attached the keel and then added layers of glass again over the keel / hull joint as my boat currently has. To be honest, I would never have bought a boat with structural issues. I have a very strong boat and recently suffered two cracks in my inner liner supports just behind the keel. I had it professionally repaired. I could have done the repairs myself, but chose to have a guy who does this for a living as it is a critical area. Cost was about 3000 euros for two cracks which the surveyors and insurance co's agreed on. Although the crack was just the upper part of a stringer above the hose opening, they essentially replaced most of the stringer. I sail in rough waters and often in gale force conditions. Not because I want to, but because weather is unpredictable and these conditions are unavoidable when you spend much time on the water. Check out Sailing Magic Carpet for the proper way to do glass repairs. BUT please note - there has been good advice given. And I do enjoy the can-do spirit and have watched some channels with repair work done that was good and some I have questioned. Know when to cut your losses and walk away unless you are willing to do the work Sailing Magic Carpet have done.
I agree with the old man's advice! To shit, your keel needs to have all the weight of if it! Next after the vessel is properly suspended by extra stands the San the area at keel to hull, you will notice that there is a form of caulking it bedding at that point. Next gibinto the boat and loosen the keel bolts a bit, not too much and if possible, determine whether or not they are stable and not pulling out of the lead. From there, grind the suspect cracking and determine whether or not the supports at rotted! You can take a drill and check several areas on each athwartship supports. ( Side to side) if the wood under the glass is solid then you have a foundation to do repairs. If not you must remove all rotten material and replace it. At the same time you can increase strength by joining Sister pieces along side the weakened ones. Once this has been implemented, then you can tighten the keel bolts and begin fiberglassing the new pieces in Place! Make sure that you use adequate amount if glass while doing this I recommend Biaxial cloth throughout the whole repair and a bit too much glass is better than not enough! Once this has been completed re Caulk keel from the outside. Note; when you firstly loosen the keel bolts if a gap appears outside then use 3m 5200 to caulk before tightening the bolts then implement your internal repairs. Godspeed and don't make it too complicated, it's a fairly straightforward repair and not Rocket Science. The objective is strength and all components properly replaced and make sure any rotten wood is eliminated in those areas. Sistering new material will also help which seems to be an inherited to the vessel. be patient and all will be Just Fine! God Bless you!
I'm admiring your "we love our boat so let's get at it" attitude. I've learned a little already, such as, it's fixable! Good news indeed. I kinda cringed when the damage was discovered, even knowing very little it seemed bad to me. Hoping that the repairs progress straightforwardly at minimal cost. Cheers from the beautiful Fraser Valley, British Columbia BOAB, and please add some cuddles for Lola, she's a lovely little girl.
CHOCK THE BOAT OFF THE GROUND, the boat was made in a factory, not in the water, you don't want any leaks or water to seep into any cracks and compromise the new fiberglass repairs! KEEP THE CRAFT IN DRY DOCK! - Replacing or adding a few new ribs at this time might be the best thing to keep this issue from happening again!
Hi, I have not been thru all the comments, but the easy way to kfind out if a metal piece is stainless is to use a magnet. if it sticks to it it is not stainless.. An lead is very soft and melt at low temp around 180deg C ..
I've been building and repairing boats for 35 years. Your experts are correct, even on the in water/out water difference (although I would exhaust all efforts to do it on the hard before I'd put it in the water). There's always more than one way to skin a cat. What I would like to suggest is to add more frames. I can't really see the entire repair area but it looks like it wouldn't be an issue. Additional frames would spread the load of the keel across the hull shell and also reduce the load on each individual frame. I would use epoxy and epoxy compatible glass for this repair if you can get it. Epoxy has better bonding characteristics than polyester and, more importantly, it also has higher elongation which allows the strength of the glass to be better utilized. Best of luck with the repairs.
I forgot to add (in case you didnt see a previous post of mine,) that you need more grease in your winches to protect the small wire prawn springs from corrosion, oil on its own is not a sufficient protection.
Hey guys < i love what you are doing , and love your channel, Please take time to think about proceeding with repairing this boat, i am in the marine repair business and have repaired exstensive fiberglass damage over the years, i am going to say i would not touch this repair job with a ten foot pole, you have to measure your life against the risk here, You all should continue with your dreams of sailing the world but please find a better safer boat, someone out there has a boat maybe they would donate to your dream , I am not there to see he damage in person , but i see someone else has done a poor job trying to repair before, only with failure! i do not see you getting a high confidence result that your boat would be safe, i would never take on this job due to hours of labor cost and the liability of a customers life, no insurance surveyor would give this boat a green light for service, you guys already know how quick things can go wrong out there, you two are great kids and i want to see more videos, but rather see you on a safe boat, this old girl had serious trouble at some point in her life and the integrity of the hull is long gone, , I wish you only the best!
I like your channel and admire your determination. After I commented on the previous video I checked your channel and I see you're used to fixing things and that's great. This boat has a unique keel style. I'm sure most builders would prefer not to work on it. It's really not a diy job. If you can afford it then get another boat. If you cant afford it then get out of boating till you can. People will still watch your videos on other subjects (like the search for another boat). Just live on it till you get another. Don't cruise. It's not worth your money, effort or maybe your lives. Good luck.
Yves-Marie de Tanton over at Tanton Yacht Design was the original designer of the Carter 33. He's a really great old guy, and would probably be happy to answer any concerns you may have. If I guessed wrong about your sailboat being a Carter 33, then please ignore this comment. :P
beware of forums! Nobody builds that sort of keel with stainless and it wouldn't be a good idea because of oxygen deprivation. That is what lead looks like. The shiny part is where it's been freshly exposed.
Pure lead is soft, you can scratch it with your fingernail. Steel of all types is comparatively hard, you can only scratch it with a tool. Lead, even a hard alloy of lead and antimony, will clog up your grinding discs pretty rapidly. Both will shine up really pretty when sanded, and the lead will glisten like new money, perhaps giving the impression of being stainless. Lead weighs 708 pound per cubic foot; stainless weighs less than 500 per cubic foot, and depends on what alloy is being used. The Carter 33 calls for having 2860 pounds of ballast, which works out to a little over four cubic feet of lead, whereas a stainless version would be nearly fifty percent larger. Combine that with leads in-expense, stainless' expense, especially so the 1970's when this boat was first put into production, and the fact that stainless will still rust when exposed to salt water, especially when painted over and I'd say it is more than a safe bet your keel is plain old lead, and so is the one belonging to the guy in the forum.
@HillbillyBob Thank you for this knowledgeable feedback. You make a full proof argument and this information combined with the fact that Michal could write her name on the keel with a rock confirms that it is lead.
. I think move the boat way from the bugs and hang the keel on the hard. You have to resurface the keel anyway. Sit and stare (with beer in hand) at it until you can devise an improvement to the keel grid design using materials and tools you have.
You should put sling stickers on or markings where to pick the boat up.Do this now. Preferably on the bulkheads. Never pick a fin keel boat up by the keel. When putting it down two thirds of the weight should be on the keel and one third on the jack pads. If you are truly going to suspend the keel you will need 8 jack stands three on each side and one on the bow and stern . Now this is very important chain the side jack stands to the jack stands on the opposite side so they don't slip out. Be careful it is not unusual for boats to tip over on land if not properly secured.
use as many jack stands you can get a hold of and lift the boat until the stringers become level or slightly concave ,leaving the keel just touching the ground without all the weight of the boat on it and then repair
If you haven't already, a good idea is to also expose the hull around that keel to inspect the glass. Most boats are not designed to be supported by the keel alone, pretty much every boat distorts when being chocked up on land, but to different degrees depending on the design. But consider this what do you think happens when a boat is grounded, the keel takes most of it. The other thing, is that often, the normal boat stand configuration, usually six or seven may not be enough for you. If the full weight of the boat is put on those 1' x 1' stand pads the hull is most likely gong to distort in the those areas as well, it may take a little trial and error to get this right. I believe this why others have suggested using a cradle, one way that have seen to simulate a cradle is to run a long plank down each side of the boat between the the stands and the hull, this will help distribute the weight to a much great area and minimize local distortions, p.s. this boat may have never been intended to be a passage maker but a coastal cruiser/racer, something to consider/investigate(?).
Leave on land because if you need to work on the bottom you have that option. Plus if in water it will push this light boat to a non faired shaped. I would remove the keel and fix the grid system without the weight of the keel. This is how the boat was MADE. This is only common sense ? The keel was installed after the boat was pulled out of the mold plug ? All weight must be removed aka: keel, then grind out damaged grid even past that area and redone with either marine composites or encapsulated wood. Putting in the water is Not the way to go your decision is correct to work on land. You also need pencil grinder to reach into tight areas 2 angle grinders is not enough. Good Luck, btw i have worked in boat yards on weekends over 50 years usually there are sign plaques on all boats where to sling any boat ???? like: lift here.
i've had this repair done to my boat by a top notch yacht builder, the boat is hung in slings lifting the boat weight off the keel with the keel just touching the ground until the stringers inside become level or slightly concave, then the stringers are repaired.
Just my 2 cents on this, keeping the boat on the hard does allow you to work on both the internal and external repairs which makes more sense, but supporting the hull while just letting the keel hang entirely unsupported, is going to exert different forces than having it floating in the water. So perhaps then it might be worthwhile when you chock the boat on the hull stands after you move it, which is clearly going to take place with the keel free hanging to prevent further damage, that you also support the keel itself to some extent too, perhaps using a jack of some type to allow some adjustment based on the hull deflection visible from inside the boat. Currently you can see the hull and stringers pushed up, but once you start to remove material to make it good you will be weakening the area further before you repair it and make it good, leaving the keel entirely unsupported during that time may cause further damage to the hull, which can be avoided entirely by supporting the weight of the keel itself in the way I have suggested. Regards, Dave.
Greats points and as things progressed we were unable to both move or block the boat without supporting the keel. Boat yard manager just didn't feel comfortable with that and also said there would be no way to remove the trailer without weight on the keel which removed the option of blocking the boat with a free hanging keel.
Use epoxy for everything! Primer for the keel & resin for the grid repair. Use fiberglass formulated for use with epoxy!! Maybe previous damage occurred on haul out, for the same reason? Mark your bulkheads, and go for it!
It seems to me that the two experts also agreed on point #3. They just differed on how to achieve a natural hull shape. In the water gives a perfect shape but then you can't work on the outside. I think you made the right choice. Good luck and work safe....protect lungs, eyes, ears and fingers!
HI there, I have been enjoying following your adventures, I prefer this to TV! It looks like you have some work do. Here's another opinion just in case your running short on them. I would strongly suggest the the keel grid support system be repaired on the hard. This way you will have more control of your setup. Example: if the keel is is not hanging level, would would have no way of knowing this if it is in the water. Also if the keel area sags after lifting the hull you can always chock up the keel and position it so that it is hanging true and plumb. Good Luck and all the best!
Some of the examples of keel failure listed below are frightening but, more often than, as a result of multiple groundings - particularly with the racing boats. My RYA instructor relates many tales from his racing days of waiting till the keel bumps before tacking and hanging out on the boom to get the keel over a sill! Mad Dogs and Sailors perhaps but you don't recover from a keel failure - lost rudders are easy by comparison! Anything can be repaired and your enthusiasm will win the day. All the comments below are very valid and repairs should definitely be carried out on the hard, or preferably in a shed (expense?). Forget reinforcing with any sort of wood - this won't last five minutes (well ok then, 10!) - but beg, borrow or steal(!) some 5mm (or thicker) stainless plate rolled into shape and bolted/bonded in. This isn't as expensive as it sounds if you find a wholesaler rather than an engineering workshop. We repaired some fibreglass water/oil interceptors doing this. My experience leads me to think that tearing as well as cracking could be the issue if a failure was to occur. A tricky one...
Easy to tell if its lead or not... just scratch it with a knife or a nail or something and it will dig in easy if its lead and scratch the surface if its stainless... Also you can do it by hanging the keel on dry land and probably better you do it that way. Also once you start removing to old glass above the keel it will probably cause it to drop a bit quicker, my guess is the last repairs might have been done while the keel was pushed up a bit... I think you can get away with not having to fully expose the rib and you can add in another rib for reinforcement... You can also use something like klegecell foam to create a sandwich effect making much stronger in that area.... I have more advice on the outside keel, but need to go eat dinner... But yes your boat is save-able from what I can see on youtube without being there... and do not get discouraged,, because some guys will over dramatize it or say its going to cost a fortune... when its really not... Its just going to be some physical work by you two and she will be ocean ready once again...!!
Plain and simple, common sense... Who the hell would ever load up/lift a boat using the keel as a support point. Don't dare let those yardies lift it like that again...!!!
That keel would probably be fine for a long time. I'd get a 3/8 or 1/4 inch thick strap of steel about 5 inches wide and put it on the inside of your boat crossways and that would be 2-3' on each side and use carriage bolts made out of stainless to bolt it through the hull. That keel would hang there until the bowl judgements specifically the one about wormwood hitting the ocean.
Dick Carter construction from 1971. He also made the fairly succesful 3/4 ton racer. Now these Carter 33 boats if i´m not mistaken are probably touring versions of the racer. Less exstreme. But with the benefits of the knowledge gained from the regattas and creating a quick and responsive touring boat. I would think that she is light and fast and manoeuvres great. I use to sail a touring version of a 3/4 tonnes. So much fun; very fast and responsive. The downside of that boat and your boat here is that she is old and ill taken care of, maybe also not made to the highest of standards because she had to be light. The general market pricing on these boats suggest that they are not considered worth that much. I don´t know if the experts you have shown here are right, but I do believe that if the construction is intact and sound, which You are going to make it again, according to Your PLAN :-) then she should be able to stand on the keel just like basically all other normal boats, especially from that age, are able to. I never heard of a boat from that time that couldn't hold her own weight, sounds foolish. Make sure that the skeg for the rudder is intact as those tend to get internal fractures over time given the pressure from the rudder. You guys are showing something that looks for some experienced sailors like foolishness. But in fact these videos are showing people who have dreams and are going anyways, what can happen, and what you can do about it. Good job. Fair winds.
That keel is lead NOT Stainless. I don't suggest "hanging" the keel. Get it all propped into it's natural position, but the keel should be supported, not hanging free. Also, Joel, I vote for a single beard braid ;-) and don't be afraid to over do this repair. You want this thing so strong that you boat could go through hell and you know for sure the keel will still be there on the other side.
get the boat stands high as possible b/c you'll need to drop the keel +3ft to replace the keel bolts. grind like hell where the keel meets the hull to replace the bolts, replace bolts and apply a ton of 5200 between the keel/hull. use a car jack to raise/lower the keel. most likely she won't be sea worthy for open water trips. btw that's a lead keel
A boat like yours needs a cradle with the shape of the hull to support the weight. My boat has designated lift areas where there is extra support for the hull, this is where a cradle would go.
Unfortunately a cradle is not an option here and now that we are out it is what it is. Our only other option would be to sail to another marina with these damages which does not seem to be a smart play.
That is not that difficult to fix permanently. Taking the weight of the keel correct. The correct fix is to alter the rib structure to be a box beam construction. That involves applying thick sheet of fibre glass over the top of the ribs fully bonded down and protruding as far as possible to port and starboard. This will make the cavities seal spaces so they need to be dried and sealed with perhaps tar epoxy. You can also add glass to the outside of the hull in the most stressed area. You will have to fair that off and epoxy seal that (poly urethane paint) but this will toughen up the boat without affecting its sailing performance. I advise reading up on what box beams are and understand why they are superior to the “T” beam construction that you currently have. To me this is a very simple fix, the crack in the ribbing is inconsequential in a box construction as all of the load is taken on the skin (the hull skin and the new panel that you will be adding over the top of the ribs. This is how aircraft wings are built, only in an aircraft they use the space in between the skins as fuel tanks. The roll of the ribs in this construction is simply to space apart and join the two skins so that they cannot buckle. You may have to raise the floor boards by half an inch. Good luck.
Lift the hull just enough to restore its shape. No more. Keep the keel firmly on the ground. That's the only way you can remove and replace the broken keelframes. If you let the keel hang in the air (or water) during the repair the hull will probably deform in the other direction! At the moment your broken keelframes aren't stiffening the bottom, irrespective of the direction of the load.
Guys, please take some advice from a 71 year old ex-boat builder - be much more careful to insulate yourselves from all of the toxic things you are sanding (bottom paint, lead keel, etc.) - that is really, really nasty stuff that inters your body via pores - especially when it's hot and your body's pores are wide open. Wear Tyvek suits taped shut, rubber/nytril gloves, top quality respirators, cover every frigging part of your bodies and don't track the bad stuff into your boat. Don't pat the pretty lead keel with your bare hand! Throw out your protective clothing when you are done, don't wash it with other clothes. I'm serious - my body's immune system is jacked because of doing the same stuff you are doing now with the same poor protection schemes...it catches up with you later in life!
Okay thanks for looking out. We would be dumb not to listen to a man of your experience. Thought we suited up well but we will look for better suits although they have been hard to find. Wont touch the keel with bare hands in the future.
You wanna watch out for marinas doing boat maintenance. Sometimes they add or break things that you are not aware of. I just put new engine and reverse gear and all new wiring and hydraulics. The estimate was 250,000 I got a final bill of 325,000. We are fighting with ship yard about the remainder of the balance. Remember boat stands for “break out another thousand “. Be safe
Okay guys, maybe this was said in your last video but you need to be damn sure you have that matrix grid fixed properly!!! Im not sure if you remember what happened to Cheeki Rafiki? Rafiki was a Bénéteau First 40, and she was built exactly like your boat with a grid matrix keel support setup, and it was lightly grounded a couple times before the keel broke off during an Atlantic crossing. There were 4 men aboard at the time and none survived, the boat was found by the US coast guard over a week later capsized barely above water with the keel missing. You can download the pdf of the official accident investigation into what happened. I encourage you to read it so you know what you are up against, and it is also very interesting and entertaining. Seriously though it has to be done right. her matrix was repaired but it wasnt done properly.
@@Bumsonaboat Please do! There is a ton of information in the offical accident report about how the grid matrix can become detached from the hull without it being readily apparent via the clamping force of the keel bolts as well as tension from the rig closing up areas that have become de-laminated from the hull. When the boat is listing 20 degrees or whatever under sail the keel is effectively put under a side load. This side load and shock load from beating through rough seas is ultimately what tore the keel off and capsized the boat. Where your matrix is broken makes me believe that the exact same thing would happen if you were to be in heavy seas listing opposite of the worst cracks. Unfortunately when Rafiki lost her keel and capsized she was in the middle of the Atlantic in bad weather in total darkness. Two of the crew possibly were alive for up to 24 hours after the accident, but eventually lost consciousness in the cold and passed before help could find them.
I'm sorry but Cheeky Rafiki being a Beneteau was built in an entirely different method.Beneteaus have a structural liner that's bonded to the hull for rigidity and depend on the bond to stay whole. This system is convenient for the builder but very dangerous in case of a collision of which Cheeky Raffiki had some. I once saw a Beneteau First 35.5 that had a keel that wobbled from side to side just by pushing on it.Looking from the inside the keel nuts and bottom looked perfect but the liner had detached itself from the hull.
Hey guys, wish I was there to lend a hand. In my humble opinion it's not such a big deal, don't lose sleep over this. If it were me I would just build some hard wood ribs (or easier still just epoxy wood strips in situ, till you get the right thickness) and glass them in alongside the original grid. Use bottle jacks and some improvisation till you get the hull shape back. It doesn't have to be exact to the nearest thousandth of an inch. If it looks good it'll sail good. I wouldn't worry about trying to fix the original grid, looks like it has been tried before without success. Just glass over the cracks so no water seeps in. Do all of this on the hard as the last thing you want is your keel flopping around with the waves as you try to glass in the new ribs. Plus you will need to do a bottom painting job, etc. LOL I bet I'll get some flak for this advice, but it's just a boat, get it into the water ASAP. Go overboard on the over-engineering, looks like there were only three or four transversal supports so build six! Once you have built your extras you can rip out the old ones and replace them if you really want to but you would be surprised how much strength they still have, considering their entire length.. I guess the keel bolts are OK as nobody seemed to mention these. Good luck! Looking forward to the progress reports so subscribed and SMASHED that there like.
I like to look at the cool side of this, u both are young, all the knowledge you are soaking up!! Amazing!! And how beyond proud you will be when you begin new journeys!!!! Awesome to watch!! Adore you both!!
PPS If both experts tell you the weight of the keel will pull back the hull into it's original shape IT ONLY MEANS YOU HAVE TO STRENGTHEN THE HULL WITH A SUPERSTRING GRID : because it shouldn't have happened in the first place. (sorry but my previous comments were made before watching your post entirely : I apologize). A boat of which keels pounds on the grounds ages 10 years in 10 minutes… But a boat sound' fall sloppily on it's keel for the very reason it is lifted temporarily. It is either bad original design or because the frames had been mailed one way or another, and the longitudinal piece that cross the frames have been taking some rot too … I really hope for the best. Cheers !…
**HANG** The Keel In Dry Dock.... The Boat Was Made OUT OF THE WATER, not in the water.... Very glad you took my advice and got some experts ..... Props for that...... NOW, you have to raise the boat till the keel no longer touches the ground, then repair the cracks and any ribs...maybe even ad a few metal ribs and encase them in fiberglass, then fix the stuff you mention in the prior video.... Its gonna be a lot of work and will need an expert to help you with the keel and rib repairs, Structure is key ....... REMEMBER, with the boat in the water , the full weight of the keel area won't be as heavy and wont hang down as low as it will need to be and to get the correct shell shape as it had when it was made.... DRY DOCK RIB and KEEL REPAIR ONLY! .... NEVER make structural fiberglass repairs in the water!
Mr. Roach sadly we have exhausted all options to raise the boat up off the keel. There are many limitations here in the boat yard and this is one. At this point repairing it in the water is the best option. Otherwise we do it on the hard work the keel still being pushed up albeit much less now that we are moved.
@@Bumsonaboat ....sending you all my best voodoo & mojo to get the job done right, maybe seal the outer bottom skin with a temp patch before dropping it in the water...water WILL GET IN ANY CRACK
Glad you had a few others take a personal look. I agree with most that you have a lead alloy keel. Pure lead is very soft and by adding other metals you can get a much more firm, less expensive keel. As much as I would like to float the boat to get the keel to hang, it is much safer to do it on stands. So long as the stands are on bulkheads, you should be in relatively good shape. No pun intended.
You can tell if there's steel near the surface with a magnet. Lead won't attract the magnet, but something beneath it might. If you do the magnet test, play around with it to try to get a feel for whether the magnet is attracted to the surface metal or something under it. If it is lead-coated metal or solid lead, you should be able to get a flake of the surface metal off with just any sharp metal tool, as lead is way softer than most other metals, especially steel. It could also be a steel or aluminum container with another metal for filler. I'm no expert on boat design, but if it were up to me to make a boat, I'd definitely coat any submerged metal parts with lead. Very few metals and metal alloys can compare to how well lead resists salt water corrosion. Aside from gold, it is basically the best. Even naval brass isn't as good. And salt water is the bane of many types of stainless steels.
I looked it up ,ur keel is a poured LEAD keel like most production boats have ,stainless steel is rare and costly , I about flipped when I saw the boat yard guys standing ur boat on it's keel with spin Jack's , geez, I've worked at boat yards and built and repaired wood and fiberglass boats and custom one off racing sail boats for years so I'm a bit familiar with ur issues, for one keep ur boat out of the water and dry, epoxy and or poly resin won't stick to wet wood or a wet sub straight, lead is highly toxic and u prolly went over board grinding the whole keel ,but too late, u def need to put the boat in cradles to re establish the natural shape of the boats architecture, then ligtly block the bottom of the keel once and after it's in cradles and the keel /shape has settled down , u have two choices at that point, personally I would do it all from inside as presently nothing is protruding on the out side, remove more /as moch teak and Holly floor boards as needed and expose the entire keel grid stringer system, because there is an existing fracture u must go way beyond in every direction to over fix / rebuild this grid system to compensate for fracturing, I would grid off the edges of the poly glass encapsulating the worst area and proceed out from there ,removing the old fiberglass as u go, looking for cracked and wet stringer wood , once u indentify all the cracked and or rotten areas u must expose fresh wood and go wood to wood for repair before sealing again , u may want to replace some of the main stringers and simply tie in the existing stringers that are left , a little more now is a good thought , if done correctly u can sail again anywhere, I would use epoxy system to repair and seal, much stronger ,use acetone orr laquer thinner to prep before re sealing or applying any type of resins or products, a orbital sander w 80-100 grit will prep ur keel after small crack repairs , important not to chang the shape of ur keel ,don't sand too smooth as a little coarse ness will help a new gel coat or what ever u choose to re sealing ur outside keel area w, I would tackle the inside first ,let the keel settle once in cradles hit the stringers then keel last ,the keel bolts are cast and prolly not replaceable, but they shouldn't be an issue ,the problem is centered in the stringers not the keel bolts, I would not over do the outside of the keel,large cracks must be ground out and a strip or two of fiber cloth w epoxy should secure that ,the sand edges w orbital sander ,little cracks might be dealt w by light grind and applying straight epoxy coats in secession ,like one now then one more in an hour while last coat is still tacky, but once poly resin or epoxy hardens it off gases or blushes and u must sand or grind it to re establish a good bond again , it's called a lay up schedule, so once u remove all old glass needed to remove in stringers, replace what ever is needed , glue and secure all new wood ,then have all ur cloth layers pre cut and in a pile , be sure u have enough resin , gloves ,masks and acetone for clean up, u may want to write down a lay up schedule once u start resin application u must continue all layers until completed ,it u stop u have to sand and re prep all surfaces for maximum bond, when u cradle ur boat I would suggest looking it up on ur manufacturer recommend points ,I would speculate approx 1-3 feet in front of and 1-3 feet behind the keel should work fine ,use peices of 4x8 board styro foam to adjust hogging of the hull ,u can make cradles out of double or triple layer 5/8 or 3/4 plywood glued and screwed together ,for ur boat I would think 6 sheets and 2 more for end triangle supports on the cradles so that's maybe 8 total sheets of plywood, then 2x4s in x pattern to keep cradles from racking one on each base side also,use spin Jack's in conjunction w cradles to add needed support , get some big card board or poster board to make templates of ur hull shape , u should be able to make one for front (too but same shape half's) and one for back ,transfere to the plywood ,use jig saw to cut out leave at least a foot of wood on bottom for strength,add side plywood angles to keep upright, get old foam padding to put on exposed edge that will contact ur hull and re set ur boat in cradles ,so then do inside fix, while dealing w cracks on keel etc, same time, after inside is done sand and prep keel area ,I would either use a Wagner to spray a gel coat ,but u must spray then immeduately clean gun w laquer thinner ,as gel kicks off in 15-20 mins, then prep and spray bottom paint .if ur careful u can feather in new gel coat w old gel coat , more light coats is better , watch spray videos can help, spraying is a art lol ,the thought of splashing ur boat to do repairs is ludicris ,if a leak developed when repairing ur stringers us be screwed ,and have to pull it out again ,and start from scratch ,not to mention ur stringer strength would be compromised once removing damaged would ,dude keep the boat on dry land till fixed just make two cradles and go from there.if u can't afford to build the cradles I guess it could be done in the water but there r a few concerns ,first is condensation from temp inversions ,resins don't stick to water or condensation, and u may encapsulate moisture after spending money on new wood then sealing it up etc, we used to use numourus spin jacks if no cradle was available , but never did major stringer repairs in the water ,we also tied the spin Jack's together to keep from slipping etc,we also loosened up fore stays and back stays and halyards to reduce tension on the structure .
Wow, okay first thing that comes to mind is that this Marina doesn't have the necessary equipment to cradle our boat. The trailer is all they have for moving boats and spin Jacks are the only method for blocking boats here. We recently moved the boat and were hoping they could block the boat with the keel hanging but the boat yard manager was not comfortable with the idea. There was no way to remove the trailer without any weight on the keel however now that we are on more level ground the keel has lowered quite a bit although it is not exactly back to natural form. Here in the D.R. we are limited in some ways but we believe there is still a way albeit not ideal. As of now it appears our best option is to do all external repairs/paint on the hard and return to the water for a dicy repair to the grid. Again we realize this is not the preferred method but all we are focused on is doing the best we can with what is available. Appreciate all the info on how to perform the repair. We will now be able to reference this comment at any time and that is so valuable.
Seems like most people are in agreement with this issue, my previous comments in the earlier video were cradle the boat, and do all the work from inside, following the stringers right up the hull to where they end and grind out, epoxy new ones, longer, thicker and wider then do chop rovings and 3 layers of bi-axial alternating the direction of the weave. All on the hard from inside
Keep your heads up! Lots of work ahead and there are moments you will question everything but as you already have you will learn and grow and I have no doubt you will be able to get it fixed. Looking forward to following along.
Hi Guys! I have been binging on your episodes for the last week or so. Love all the sailing and technical/fixing bits and it's been great following your adventure! Looking forward to more installments! Good luck and all the best for the future. I will be watching! m
They actually agreed on all points.. just a matter of semantics as to how to relax the keel... they both agreed that the thing needed the stress removed.. a pocket knife will tell you what the keel is made of.. lead can be shaved with a knife.. not so much stainless..
Plenty of well meaning/ ill informed opinions here. My two cents worth 1 Take advice of Eric Morris 2 Seek wise counsel (eg 0:09 )as to whether your time resources would be better spent elsewhere 3 Great luck!
Stainless steel is a very hard steel and lead is a soft material. Take a nail ( like a 8 penny) and see if you can start to drive it in. If it goes in a bit it is lead if not some king of steel. My guess is that it is lead since that is easy to shape compared to the other choices. Take the load off the keel and see if the structure changes. You will be getting some experience in fiber glassing in the near future and making gussets and things. You'll do fine.
Uncle Muir always great to hear from you. We will do that test, from what you say I'm pretty sure it's lead. We attempted to take the load off and will be giving a much sooner update to you and the Patrons. Didn't exactly work out but it's all good. Always exciting to learn new things by doing them.
Should be able to tell while grinding. Lead will melt when it gets hot. Also lead will probably fill up your sand paper and your grinder would dig into it pretty easily.
To determine keel of lead or steel should be fairly simple. Lead is way softer than steel. You should be able to push a pocket knife blade into lead but you can't even scratch steel with a knife.
Wow! Miss Lone Star is followin?? Yall doing something good! Gonna binge vid ya now!! Gatta catcth up. Makes me worry that the ship has an unnatural/natural state. If the mast came down to the bottom, would that have been a design issue to keep min hull flex?? Anyway...great channel!!
wow you guys know Stephaan and Aubrey?? Keep them close those kids know what they are doing! If they watch you it seems I need to start watching from the top!
Good job guys, I'm glad to see you guys talked to knowledgeable people. Sounds like you might get out of this fairly well. Sometimes boats will have labels on the hull that point to where it's best to lift it.
Glad to see you guys are in good spirits.....Too bad your not on the hard in St.Petersburge FL.I would love to help and learn....Baby Lola is almost not a baby anymore....She growing fast.....see you on the next video.......T.Gunz.........🙂
Stainless & lead are easy to tell apart. Lead is squishy & soft, and you can scratch it with a fingernail with a bit of effort. Stainless will trim your nails if it has a sharp enough edge. I don't know of any stainless steel keels. Cast iron, concrete. lead shot, cast lead... never any stainless.
Stainless would give You sparks when ground with corundum. I would doubt the idea of a full stainless keelfin. Several comments about that and how to determine lead already present. And when it comes to the problem with this alleged hanging-only keelfin construction ... putting it back into water would be the right choice then, as sort of her "natural habitat" so to say. Might first need a new barrier layer and mending the stinky osmosis spots outside though - I still would strongly recommend an in-water-repair instead of torturing the hull even more with pointed "high heel" load peaks where You "lift" her by hydraulic jacking into a hanging keel situation. I understand there is no travellift, and even if so, You could not borrow that for a fortnight straight to reshape her into naturally hanging keel form, could you ....?? When already at it, I even would double or triple up the keelfin hanging points inside to enable unspectacular slip haulout at least for next time. If You want do that, look up "sandwich laminate theory" and "constructing cored laminate hulls" to learn what's crucial to come to strong, reliable constructions/repairs (All my books dealing with this theme are German, so I can not even recommend anything I'm afraid 🙄) ... bloody simple once You understand how sandwich laminates produce spherical strength. Poor sandwich construction: th-cam.com/video/tYnEcPAhruc/w-d-xo.html Cheers 🍻
OMG this video is terrifying!! We are now confident that the keel is lead. We will study up on sandwich laminate theory/constructing cored laminate hulls. Really leaning towards adding extra keelson hanging points inside. Also it looks like repairing in the water is our best option at this time.
@@Bumsonaboat Yes it is frightening. Australia one was poorly built because of weight restrictions the consortium layed upon the yard when they got intel about their competitor's boats/weights (at least that's what a participant of the building crew told me years later). So lightweight isn't the issue, but the construction has to be different when less strands are to be built in -there was no time to do it properly. Now, Australia one was swarmed with helping boats. Imagine those 60 to 90 seconds being alone and beyond landsight and in a somewhat choppy ocean less warm than in Luperon .... You would be happy having Your liferaft stowed outboard and not below the boom, wouldn't You? That's why some people have a "grab sac" with the most important documents and equipment/charts/compass when going on a crossing. In terms of repair: You might consider filling the now open/deeper parts beneath the keelbolt podests with a somewhat strong core material and laying several layers of bidirectionally needled glass rovings ontop of that, ending on Your hull-inside 20 to 80 cm all around (I would lay up 70 % diagonal and 30 % more longitudinal /90° -ish): that would give the keelfin a strong topend connection to hull via new keelson. Most important would be the bond of new fill-in core to existing keelson and hull ... gotta put it in with slooooooow epo to avoid sinkholes/cavities under all circumstances. Too fast a bonding mixture would cook up in its exotherm reaction and thus render itself useless also in terms of glueing property. If in doubt, put core in in layers. That's what I'd do in low-tech conditions. For such layers there is valid the same idea of boundary constructing / overlaying bond I already described with the osmosis cavity fill-ins, of course. You want each layer have its own bond to the hull. Good luck!
I have a Catalina 34 fin keel a few yrs had a bad grounding had keel removed and structural issues repaired and beefed up cost 38 thousand dollars once keel was off transverses or ribs where spilt in half only visible from the bottom. Lead keel is soft you can scratch it with screwdriver steel won’t mark it and sailboats should be lifted by hull straps not under the keel
Awesome that you didn’t throw the towel in on your boat and you guys are going to fix the girl she has many years left in her I love y’all s videos cheers oceancowboy from Texas
Good luck guy, I'm looking forward to this adventure. Lots of comments below to take note of. Watch the lead, dont want in your system, very bad for you.
It might be easier to cut it off and cast a new one out of Bronze. Just need the shape and weight right. Then build up the inside of the boat to bolt it on. Going to have to make a ship craddle. Mark where the lifting straps are supposed to go for next time!
Get a drill, drill a small hole in the keel and collect all the metal shavings, then take down to a metal analyzer lab that test for metal content in used oil, and they will tell you the composition of the metal. Be SURE to inquire if the have a ICP Inductively Coupled Plasma machine. While an AA (Atomic Absorption) machine can do the same analysis you just as well should give money to a ICP lab.
Hammer and a magnet. Strike it with a hammer. If it dings its iron based, if it thuds and dents, thats lead. Then stick a magnet on it. Stainless won't stick. Or throw some salt water on and watch... lol I totally agree. I've done a similar repair on my Beneteau. You need it in the natural state for repair. I don't think any fin keelers can be lifted by the keel. But whiles she's out and up put some "SLING" marks where the next place should put the slings. I'd check with your two pros on that too. But then paint 2" dots on the hull near the toe rail. That's the sling lines. Also do it on the inside of the toe rail as the lift operators may be able to see those just as easy for alignment purposes.
Abandon hope? Never that! A simple tap of a hammer should give you all the info you need. Those two metals are of vastly different densities. Lead will make a "thud" like hitting wood, and stainless a "clang".
I know you guys must be "bummed out" (pun intended) with your haul-out discovery. Rest assured it has happened to many of us. I remember well hauling out my newly purchased Cape Dory 30 the first time only to discover the rudder was bent to starboard by 10 degrees, broken at the bottom and hanging loose. I had no idea what to do, and no one would help me. Getting the rudder out was a nightmare. Long, sad story short....I was in the boat yard for over 30 days taking care of that nasty surprise. Bright side: I took photos and wrote an article for "Good Old Boat" magazine. Made myself $$$$$ to help defray the cost of the whole fiasco. So, take lots of photos and write an article for some sailing magazine as you fix (and you will eventually fix it!) your problem. Good luck.
Whilst you do have broken floors that require fixing, the Carter 33 and 30 did have that concaved shape.... The Australian production Carter 33 and 30 had that shape.... a little disconcerting when you first look at it. I suggest you check the design and other Carter 33's of the same production and see if they have the concave shape. Regardless once the floors are fixedand the structure is sound, I have never heard of a boat that couldn't sit on it's keel I would confirm the design
Hopefully everything works out with the keel sounds like a lot of work! But at least you know now how to do haul outs with her now so maybe the repairs will hold up better.
I'm pretty sure that sailing uma went through the same thing. Don't know how long ago put y'all might get some pointers. Be grateful that y'all are young and healthy because that makes me hurt just thinking about all the work. Fair seas my friends ⛵⚓🐕
wow, i can see that this video attracts a lot of people with specialist knowledge which is great! it almost looks like these bums seem to enjoy taking the challenge and grow at it. To bellyache about the issue is not their option at all as it seems. would like to see more folk having this attitude, it would be a much better world. "nur die Harten.....!" cheers alex
I have looked at your video a couple of times now, it looks to me like lead. Lead is soft, if you hit it with a hammer it will dent but its composition will not really effect the method of repair to the grid. When cutting out the supporting grid dont be frightened to take out more than the minimum. The more you can spread the load (for if/when it is taken out of the water next time by you or someone else) the better. Also check your keel bolts for rust/corrosion while your at it. Good luck folks, at least you will get proficient at fibre glass repairs. You also might want to consider an earth from your mast to the keel in case of lightening strike. Best wishes from the UK.
Id say just off the amount of weight it would need to keep the boat upright it has to be lead steel wouldn't be dense enough for that small a keel to work
@@nigelspendlove9088 most likely. Nigel maybe right, most lead keels are at the base. I'm nothing near a marine mechanic, however, correct me if I'm wrong, I would believe the lower the weight the better the ballist. But as as Richard stated, lead is soft and wouldn't be best for a full keel. I can't wait for the conclusion on what you find out.
Its definitely not stainless steal, hit it with the angle grinder and see what sparks come off it, depending on what color and how many sparks there are you can easily decipher which material it is. Its either lead, cast iron/steel. If its hard its cast iron/ steel, if its soft its lead.
Never commented on a video before, but need to do it now. Found yall a few days ago and have binge watched the whole story already. Keep up the good work! I love your dedication!
I wouldn't recommend supporting the hull 100% with stands, you could hole the hull. She should have been able to be supported by the keel no problem, so might be best to do that repair on the water. That's lead. They don't make keels out of stainless, only cast iron or lead, or in some wooden boats or steel boat they use steel pellets and concrete (not recommended in steel boat). Stainless makess no sense below the waterline, as it can't form an oxide layer which makes it resistant to rust/corrosion. Also it's density isn't much different from steel and it's far far more expensive. Lead is also very expensive but is far superior as ballast due to it's weight per volume.
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@4:35 I Agree... On the hard , keel suspended.. Still a dicey job, it needs major support.
If it doesn't dent easy, it's not lead. Also stainless is not magnetic. So if it is hard and non-magnetic, it's stainless. Getting two experts and not at the same time was a good method. I got your letter guys, very impressed at the level of personal attention. Here's a return gift for the channel...your very own bingo game. www.dropbox.com/s/luxp7u1082wvo2x/BoaBbingo.pdf?raw=1
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You have a good plan. I am a big fan of putting lots of extra glass on old boats. Grind down to something as you've planned. Build up a ton of layers of fiberglass. If you haven't done fiberglass work before, start with some small project or try putting three or so layers wrapped all the way around the keel to gain some knowledge of how the glasscloth and resin work together, especially how to work the resin into the cloth so as to remove every last air bubble. The most critical thing with fiberglass is that you don't want any air bubbles at all between the layers. Air looks white and a good laminate goes almost transparent once all the air is out. If you find an air bubble, just grind down to it and lay a small patch of glass cloth in there and continue building up layers. The more the better. Structural things need a lot of thickness made from lots and lots of layers. If it was my boat, I'd put in more than a half inch of laminate over the top of it consisting of a couple dozen layers of glasscloth, then I'd consider it fixed forever but I'd pull up the floor and inspect it from time to time. Remember, you sailed the boat to where it is in this condition, once strengthened massively with a thick laminated structural member, its going to be a lot stronger than it was when you sailed it there from Florida..
Fiberglass fixes everything on a boat. Laying a lot of layers of glass over broken structural members will fix it as long as you sand, clean really good with acetone and tab out far enough to insure a good bond. Sand or grind a rounded corner on anything with an outside right angle and make about a one inch radius curve with fairing compound on any inside right angles because the glasscloth will not wrap around a right angled corner without leaving an air bubble under it which can compromise the adhesion of your repair. The stringers which are the structural supports inside the hull on a lot of newer boats are made of fiberglass laid over soft foam. The foam just defines the shape of the structural stringer and the many layers of fiberglass are the actual structural beam. In older boats with rotten wood stringers, you can fix it by laying up a thick laminate of many layers of glasscloth to build a fiberglass beam over the top of the rotted wood one. When stringers are fixed this way the floor may have to be raised an inch to accommodate the layers of glass on top of the stringers and tabbing sometimes carries out to almost make an inner hull if there is any question of rot in more wood than the stringer. My point is that fiberglass can be used as the structural members that hold the boat together. As long as you sand, clean and tab sufficiently to get a good bond, and put down enough layers to build up more than sufficient strength, you should have nothing to worry about. Otherwise hold on to the parts that float as the other comment said.
Looking at the aft lower area of your keel I would hazard a guess that your keel has suffered upward impact. Your grid is welded and on professionally welded structures the weld is stronger than the parent metal. Your grid appears to have been what we English call bodged in the past by slapping some glass fibre mat over the fractured metal. On that basis it’s unlikely you were responsible for the damage merely you have been honest enough to realise all is not well. A lead keel will declare itself by accepting scoring from an edge tool. Stainless steel will shower bright sparks when grinding. Remember that stainless bruises under impact and work hardens when being cut wether by machining or hand tools. You are doing OK. Stay honest in your endeavours and you will stay safe. I see you are receiving much valid advice from us Old Uns. That shows you have the right attitude. Isn’t that right chaps?
Stainless would of thrown sparks off when grinding it. Its lead. Others were staying hammer would dent it but lead scratches easy too just take a screwdriver and scratch it even alloys with zinc and the like to harden it will scratch easy. Not like a tiny mark when you nick your car it'll scratch deep enough to feel it with your hands. I wouldn't touch that keel much till you get the dust off read up on effects of lead poisoning. Lead dust is bad news
We are sure its lead now. Thanks for the comment. Approaching with caution.
Now we are talking. If you think I may have been harsh on you earlier you are right. I like sailors, But I do not like dead wet sailors. That is why I was so harsh. I think you are doing the right thing. Fix the boat and fix it right so you can sail on a seaworthy boat. There is happiness on a seaworthy boat. I have subscribed. Yes the boat can be fixed on the hard. Do the best job you know how and don't take a short cut. I might be wrong on this, but if it were me I would wrap or encapsulate the metal part of the keel with the fiberglass part of the keel with more fiberglass. Make it one piece. If you are wondering if the keel is lead or stainless.. Stainless is very hard It might even ring if you tap it. Lead is very soft will go thud it you tap it with a hammer. You can scar it with a screwdriver or and awl. Just think about all that you will know when this is done.
Replacing the wood core of the ribs(grid) is not necessary as it don't offer much structural support. Many boats have foam ribbing. The key to the structural support is the fiberglass . Grind out the old and add 4 to 6 layers of woven roving. Extend the layers out from the ribs 10 inches to a foot. First layer about 4 inches out from the rib and for each layer add about 2 inches out. Use a laminating resin instead of a waxed resin. Don't waste time when laminating. wet out area, lay glass, wet out, (use a finn roller), and keep adding layers till done. Go for the strongest chemical bone as possible. I wipe the area down with styrene before starting the first layer. It helpes get a better bond more so than acetone and other thinners. Personally I haven noticed the difference if the boat is sitting in a cradle or in the water when it comes to these types of repair, the biggest difference is, if the boat is sitting in a cradle , you can control how much the keel drops before you grind out and repair.
Hi boat bums , a suggestion is to use more jackstands and dig a pit for the keel , might solve your problem
Cool
Hello there ! …
Good thing you talked to experts.
First it really is not difficult to differentiate lead from stainless steel : lead is so soft that you can almost mark it with your finger nail !… Nail doesn't slip on lead, it does on SS.
As for the the structural grid : yes it has to be redone from top to bottom and you cannot do that in the water. I don't think damage was done from lifting the boat, it is very old structural damage : although both experts are 150% right about the keel is made to be suspended, I don't thing the weight of the boat by itself would have caused the frames to break. To me it is most likely the boat pounded on the ground as it happens sometimes… At any rate discussion on the causes is pretty pointless now. Now your boat is like a house of which bricks only hold by the wallpaper ! This has to be fixed throughly.
First you must build a cradle with two frames that follow the hull shape so that the boat doesn't rest on it's keel. Then strip all the wallpaper (i.e.; the fiberglass from the frames. You must find how those frames are made, their shape and material to figure out what to do newt. You also have to check how the longitudinal piece of timber (for want of a better word : technically they call it a "cabin", but I'm not so sure the word is still used now). My guess is that you need to see what between the frames and the keel itself : if this is rotten or full of osmosis or whatever it has to be replaced, or cleaned or whatever is needed to be done. You'll never know if you don't see it and touch it. Then you'll have to build and few new frames : this is pretty straightforward : laminated wood and epoxy work very well as is quite easy as shaping the the piece can be done where it will fit in the boat's bottom. Then you'll only have to take the piece off to plane and sand it before fixing it by gluing it and strewing it with epoxy. Regarding your strategy about how to add strength to the boat you have to use practical imagination alway keeping in mind that the structure has ti be better than the original one when it was new : after all it may well be a faulty design. The motto here is : too strong doesn't fail you … You're NOT on a racing project, so forget all those new innovations that are suitable for modern and NEW boats. This one is old and not modern : it's design is as old as any old mariner's song !…
I feel I'm not really answering your issue : if I could I would gladly hop in a plane and check it out !… I little bit of sunshine would be a relief from the overcast stormy weather we have on the Channel now … lol
As for why doing this job aground ? On the bottom line because access to both sides of the boat is essential : adding a new wallpaper on probably faulty bricks is useless. For practical reasons too : you cannot live on the boat afloat ; you'll be on constant errands and going ashore with the tender will literally swallow 40% of your time.
I really wish you luck.
Please if you need any detail, ask !
Good luck !
Doing the repairs to the grid while in the water is an option, But keep in mind 1: even the smallest leak will ruin the repair and 2: if you have A catastrophic failure there will be no hauling it out quickly. Find a way to cradle it, several sheets on 1in plywood glued and bolted together, used railroad ties from A home and garden center, Green timbers from A local mill, hell even the screw jacks strapped together and large pads of 1/2 in plywood will work in A pinch. Where there is the will there is A way.
We have considered this build a cradle feat and it seems like more of an engineering endeavor than the repairs themselves.
Assuming the keel is lead I would not have taken it down to bare metal. Lead oxidizes almost as fast as you can sand it, and practically nothing will stick to the oxidization. Repainting bare lead keels is a nightmare that I would personally try to avoid.
The sailboat was built on a stand so it makes sense to do the repair on a stand. The problem is that unless the sailboat and keel are properly supported you may be inadvertently pre-stressing the repaired area. When you put the sailboat back into it's natural water environment it may cause the repair to be under more stress than it would be if the repair was done with the sailboat on the water. It may be an insignificant or major difference depending on how well the hull and keel are supported during the repair.
Repairing in water is not a good idea. Blocking it is better as you would have access both above and below the boat. That keel is a couple thousand pounds, when you do your repairs, be prepared to support that weight as well. The repairs from previous owners look band-aided. Gut that part of the cabin (I'm sorry), get as much access to the top of the keel to scarf or use futtocks or supports to the frames to spread the load out to the boat as possible. Boat building hard woods might be available there, i don't know. Your reinforcing structural materials should be as close or compatible to the frames as possible. Though a good boaty hardwood won't cause galvonic corrosion. You guys have put a lot of work in, 👍👍
It's hard to see how much head room there is in the cabin where the keel grid is, but if you could make the ribs 4 or 6 inches deeper, that would add considerable strength. You may also be able to add more transverses between the existing ones. Greg
Tamara Lee we would have to lift the floorboards and there would be enough room to stand comfortable for us. We are exploring the option to add more transverse supports.
Bums on a Boat Hi, I saw your response. Actually ,I'm Greg Lee, Tamara's husband. I'm a naval architect, so I was interested to see your videos of the structural problems around your keel. The cracks in the transverses on your keel are at the top of the beam, which means the beam failed from bending. This makes sense since the load from the boat weight applied to the keel would make the beams push up. The point to consider for this issue is that, for resisting loads that cause bending in beams, the strength of a beam increases as the cube of its height.
I'm guessing the height of the cracked beams at the crack location is about 6 inches. If you could double the height by increasing height by 6", then the strength against bending would increase by 2 X 2 X 2 = 8. That could offer a reliable long term fix for the keel. In any case, best of luck on whichever way you choose to fix. Also, I have subscribed, and I mashed the hell out of the thumbs up button. Greg
What did he just say?
It sucks that this happened, but the key thing is that it IS repairable. And that you can doit without hiring it out. Keep your heads up and you'll be back on the water before you know it. Love this series and can't wait to see where life takes you guys next.
A stainless keel would be worth more than that entire boat new. Just by looking at it I can tell you it is lead. Lead is soft and leaves marks like yours from grinding. It would totally different if it was ground stainless steel.
You guy's are on the right track the worst job is the grinding of the glass in side that will all have to go back to timber or whatever supports are in there you will need to braise them and when you reglass them if you can obtain some Kevlar cloth it will help reinforce the keel mounts and try putting a 100 mm wide strip around the outside of the keel in 3 places to keep the two parts of your keel together & to check what your metal is use a magnet if it does not stick it is marine grade stainless.
I admire your determination. As I am repeating what others have said I am sure you will do what is necessary to make the keel repair correctly and remember your safety at sea is the most important consideration.
Sailing Uma had a similar problem. Their keel was loose with cracked internal structural supports. They made of video of the repairs you might find interesting.
We have watched it once and will watch a few more times moving forward. Got to love Sailing Uma.
@@Bumsonaboat I would be cautious going their route - unless I missed something - they did not do proper repairs on their keel. Correct me if I am wrong, but they just added layers to the keel area WITHOUT cutting away the damaged glass. It looked to be a patch job. Again, I could be wrong but that is what it appeared to be. The way their keel was wobbling, I would have removed the keel and redone the entire area that supports the keel, then re-attached the keel and then added layers of glass again over the keel / hull joint as my boat currently has. To be honest, I would never have bought a boat with structural issues.
I have a very strong boat and recently suffered two cracks in my inner liner supports just behind the keel. I had it professionally repaired. I could have done the repairs myself, but chose to have a guy who does this for a living as it is a critical area. Cost was about 3000 euros for two cracks which the surveyors and insurance co's agreed on. Although the crack was just the upper part of a stringer above the hose opening, they essentially replaced most of the stringer. I sail in rough waters and often in gale force conditions. Not because I want to, but because weather is unpredictable and these conditions are unavoidable when you spend much time on the water. Check out Sailing Magic Carpet for the proper way to do glass repairs. BUT please note - there has been good advice given. And I do enjoy the can-do spirit and have watched some channels with repair work done that was good and some I have questioned. Know when to cut your losses and walk away unless you are willing to do the work Sailing Magic Carpet have done.
@@matjam8305 u r correct but i brought up that point plus with them and said they asked experts LMAO millennials rarely listen
@@Bumsonaboat watch Expedition Evans and sailing aurora both had grid issues good luck
I agree with the old man's advice! To shit, your keel needs to have all the weight of if it! Next after the vessel is properly suspended by extra stands the San the area at keel to hull, you will notice that there is a form of caulking it bedding at that point. Next gibinto the boat and loosen the keel bolts a bit, not too much and if possible, determine whether or not they are stable and not pulling out of the lead. From there, grind the suspect cracking and determine whether or not the supports at rotted! You can take a drill and check several areas on each athwartship supports. ( Side to side) if the wood under the glass is solid then you have a foundation to do repairs. If not you must remove all rotten material and replace it. At the same time you can increase strength by joining Sister pieces along side the weakened ones. Once this has been implemented, then you can tighten the keel bolts and begin fiberglassing the new pieces in Place! Make sure that you use adequate amount if glass while doing this I recommend Biaxial cloth throughout the whole repair and a bit too much glass is better than not enough! Once this has been completed re Caulk keel from the outside. Note; when you firstly loosen the keel bolts if a gap appears outside then use 3m 5200 to caulk before tightening the bolts then implement your internal repairs. Godspeed and don't make it too complicated, it's a fairly straightforward repair and not Rocket Science. The objective is strength and all components properly replaced and make sure any rotten wood is eliminated in those areas. Sistering new material will also help which seems to be an inherited to the vessel. be patient and all will be Just Fine! God Bless you!
I'm admiring your "we love our boat so let's get at it" attitude. I've learned a little already, such as, it's fixable! Good news indeed. I kinda cringed when the damage was discovered, even knowing very little it seemed bad to me.
Hoping that the repairs progress straightforwardly at minimal cost.
Cheers from the beautiful Fraser Valley, British Columbia BOAB, and please add some cuddles for Lola, she's a lovely little girl.
CHOCK THE BOAT OFF THE GROUND, the boat was made in a factory, not in the water, you don't want any leaks or water to seep into any cracks and compromise the new fiberglass repairs! KEEP THE CRAFT IN DRY DOCK! - Replacing or adding a few new ribs at this time might be the best thing to keep this issue from happening again!
Glad you agree lil brother, if these people were here on the Chesapeake, we could fix it for them..... call me Friday bro
Hi,
I have not been thru all the comments, but the easy way to kfind out if a metal piece is stainless is to use a magnet. if it sticks to it it is not stainless.. An lead is very soft and melt at low temp around 180deg C ..
I've been building and repairing boats for 35 years. Your experts are correct, even on the in water/out water difference (although I would exhaust all efforts to do it on the hard before I'd put it in the water). There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
What I would like to suggest is to add more frames. I can't really see the entire repair area but it looks like it wouldn't be an issue.
Additional frames would spread the load of the keel across the hull shell and also reduce the load on each individual frame.
I would use epoxy and epoxy compatible glass for this repair if you can get it. Epoxy has better bonding characteristics than polyester and, more importantly, it also has higher elongation which allows the strength of the glass to be better utilized.
Best of luck with the repairs.
I forgot to add (in case you didnt see a previous post of mine,) that you need more grease in your winches to protect the small wire prawn springs from corrosion, oil on its own is not a sufficient protection.
Hey guys < i love what you are doing , and love your channel, Please take time to think about proceeding with repairing this boat, i am in the marine repair business and have repaired exstensive fiberglass damage over the years, i am going to say i would not touch this repair job with a ten foot pole, you have to measure your life against the risk here, You all should continue with your dreams of sailing the world but please find a better safer boat, someone out there has a boat maybe they would donate to your dream , I am not there to see he damage in person , but i see someone else has done a poor job trying to repair before, only with failure! i do not see you getting a high confidence result that your boat would be safe, i would never take on this job due to hours of labor cost and the liability of a customers life, no insurance surveyor would give this boat a green light for service, you guys already know how quick things can go wrong out there, you two are great kids and i want to see more videos, but rather see you on a safe boat, this old girl had serious trouble at some point in her life and the integrity of the hull is long gone, , I wish you only the best!
I like your channel and admire your determination. After I commented on the previous video I checked your channel and I see you're used to fixing things and that's great. This boat has a unique keel style. I'm sure most builders would prefer not to work on it. It's really not a diy job. If you can afford it then get another boat. If you cant afford it then get out of boating till you can. People will still watch your videos on other subjects (like the search for another boat). Just live on it till you get another. Don't cruise. It's not worth your money, effort or maybe your lives. Good luck.
Yves-Marie de Tanton over at Tanton Yacht Design was the original designer of the Carter 33. He's a really great old guy, and would probably be happy to answer any concerns you may have. If I guessed wrong about your sailboat being a Carter 33, then please ignore this comment. :P
beware of forums! Nobody builds that sort of keel with stainless and it wouldn't be a good idea because of oxygen deprivation. That is what lead looks like. The shiny part is where it's been freshly exposed.
Some boats used metal molds when pouring their lead keels. Not usually stainless though--because lead does not readily bond to it. Usually mild steel.
Pure lead is soft, you can scratch it with your fingernail. Steel of all types is comparatively hard, you can only scratch it with a tool. Lead, even a hard alloy of lead and antimony, will clog up your grinding discs pretty rapidly. Both will shine up really pretty when sanded, and the lead will glisten like new money, perhaps giving the impression of being stainless. Lead weighs 708 pound per cubic foot; stainless weighs less than 500 per cubic foot, and depends on what alloy is being used. The Carter 33 calls for having 2860 pounds of ballast, which works out to a little over four cubic feet of lead, whereas a stainless version would be nearly fifty percent larger. Combine that with leads in-expense, stainless' expense, especially so the 1970's when this boat was first put into production, and the fact that stainless will still rust when exposed to salt water, especially when painted over and I'd say it is more than a safe bet your keel is plain old lead, and so is the one belonging to the guy in the forum.
@HillbillyBob Thank you for this knowledgeable feedback. You make a full proof argument and this information combined with the fact that Michal could write her name on the keel with a rock confirms that it is lead.
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I think move the boat way from the bugs and hang the keel on the hard. You have to resurface the keel anyway. Sit and stare (with beer in hand) at it until you can devise an improvement to the keel grid design using materials and tools you have.
You should put sling stickers on or markings where to pick the boat up.Do this now. Preferably on the bulkheads. Never pick a fin keel boat up by the keel. When putting it down two thirds of the weight should be on the keel and one third on the jack pads. If you are truly going to suspend the keel you will need 8 jack stands three on each side and one on the bow and stern . Now this is very important chain the side jack stands to the jack stands on the opposite side so they don't slip out. Be careful it is not unusual for boats to tip over on land if not properly secured.
use as many jack stands you can get a hold of and lift the boat until the stringers become level or slightly concave ,leaving the keel just touching the ground without all the weight of the boat on it and then repair
If you haven't already, a good idea is to also expose the hull around that keel to inspect the glass. Most boats are not designed to be supported by the keel alone, pretty much every boat distorts when being chocked up on land, but to different degrees depending on the design. But consider this what do you think happens when a boat is grounded, the keel takes most of it. The other thing, is that often, the normal boat stand configuration, usually six or seven may not be enough for you. If the full weight of the boat is put on those 1' x 1' stand pads the hull is most likely gong to distort in the those areas as well, it may take a little trial and error to get this right. I believe this why others have suggested using a cradle, one way that have seen to simulate a cradle is to run a long plank down each side of the boat between the the stands and the hull, this will help distribute the weight to a much great area and minimize local distortions, p.s. this boat may have never been intended to be a passage maker but a coastal cruiser/racer, something to consider/investigate(?).
Leave on land because if you need to work on the bottom you have that option. Plus if in water it will push this light boat to a non faired shaped. I would remove the keel and fix the grid system without the weight of the keel. This is how the boat was MADE. This is only common sense ? The keel was installed after the boat was pulled out of the mold plug ? All weight must be removed aka: keel, then grind out damaged grid even past that area and redone with either marine composites or encapsulated wood. Putting in the water is Not the way to go your decision is correct to work on land. You also need pencil grinder to reach into tight areas 2 angle grinders is not enough. Good Luck, btw i have worked in boat yards on weekends over 50 years usually there are sign plaques on all boats where to sling any boat ???? like: lift here.
Agreed working on land is much simpler.
i've had this repair done to my boat by a top notch yacht builder, the boat is hung in slings lifting the boat weight off the keel with the keel just touching the ground until the stringers inside become level or slightly concave, then the stringers are repaired.
This is clearly a labor of love and will be never ending but rewards are great! Wish you two the best.
Just my 2 cents on this, keeping the boat on the hard does allow you to work on both the internal and external repairs which makes more sense, but supporting the hull while just letting the keel hang entirely unsupported, is going to exert different forces than having it floating in the water.
So perhaps then it might be worthwhile when you chock the boat on the hull stands after you move it, which is clearly going to take place with the keel free hanging to prevent further damage, that you also support the keel itself to some extent too, perhaps using a jack of some type to allow some adjustment based on the hull deflection visible from inside the boat.
Currently you can see the hull and stringers pushed up, but once you start to remove material to make it good you will be weakening the area further before you repair it and make it good, leaving the keel entirely unsupported during that time may cause further damage to the hull, which can be avoided entirely by supporting the weight of the keel itself in the way I have suggested.
Regards, Dave.
Greats points and as things progressed we were unable to both move or block the boat without supporting the keel. Boat yard manager just didn't feel comfortable with that and also said there would be no way to remove the trailer without weight on the keel which removed the option of blocking the boat with a free hanging keel.
Use epoxy for everything! Primer for the keel & resin for the grid repair. Use fiberglass formulated for use with epoxy!! Maybe previous damage occurred on haul out, for the same reason? Mark your bulkheads, and go for it!
It seems to me that the two experts also agreed on point #3. They just differed on how to achieve a natural hull shape. In the water gives a perfect shape but then you can't work on the outside. I think you made the right choice. Good luck and work safe....protect lungs, eyes, ears and fingers!
👍🏽
It depends on how leak proof the boat hull is in the keel area! Re putting it back in the warer.
HI there, I have been enjoying following your adventures, I prefer this to TV! It looks like you have some work do. Here's another opinion just in case your running short on them. I would strongly suggest the the keel grid support system be repaired on the hard. This way you will have more control of your setup. Example: if the keel is is not hanging level, would would have no way of knowing this if it is in the water. Also if the keel area sags after lifting the hull you can always chock up the keel and position it so that it is hanging true and plumb. Good Luck and all the best!
Some of the examples of keel failure listed below are frightening but, more often than, as a result of multiple groundings - particularly with the racing boats. My RYA instructor relates many tales from his racing days of waiting till the keel bumps before tacking and hanging out on the boom to get the keel over a sill! Mad Dogs and Sailors perhaps but you don't recover from a keel failure - lost rudders are easy by comparison! Anything can be repaired and your enthusiasm will win the day. All the comments below are very valid and repairs should definitely be carried out on the hard, or preferably in a shed (expense?). Forget reinforcing with any sort of wood - this won't last five minutes (well ok then, 10!) - but beg, borrow or steal(!) some 5mm (or thicker) stainless plate rolled into shape and bolted/bonded in. This isn't as expensive as it sounds if you find a wholesaler rather than an engineering workshop. We repaired some fibreglass water/oil interceptors doing this. My experience leads me to think that tearing as well as cracking could be the issue if a failure was to occur. A tricky one...
Easy to tell if its lead or not... just scratch it with a knife or a nail or something and it will dig in easy if its lead and scratch the surface if its stainless... Also you can do it by hanging the keel on dry land and probably better you do it that way. Also once you start removing to old glass above the keel it will probably cause it to drop a bit quicker, my guess is the last repairs might have been done while the keel was pushed up a bit... I think you can get away with not having to fully expose the rib and you can add in another rib for reinforcement... You can also use something like klegecell foam to create a sandwich effect making much stronger in that area.... I have more advice on the outside keel, but need to go eat dinner... But yes your boat is save-able from what I can see on youtube without being there... and do not get discouraged,, because some guys will over dramatize it or say its going to cost a fortune... when its really not... Its just going to be some physical work by you two and she will be ocean ready once again...!!
Plain and simple, common sense... Who the hell would ever load up/lift a boat using the keel as a support point. Don't dare let those yardies lift it like that again...!!!
That keel would probably be fine for a long time. I'd get a 3/8 or 1/4 inch thick strap of steel about 5 inches wide and put it on the inside of your boat crossways and that would be 2-3' on each side and use carriage bolts made out of stainless to bolt it through the hull. That keel would hang there until the bowl judgements specifically the one about wormwood hitting the ocean.
Dick Carter construction from 1971. He also made the fairly succesful 3/4 ton racer. Now these Carter 33 boats if i´m not mistaken are probably
touring versions of the racer. Less exstreme. But with the benefits of the knowledge gained from the regattas and creating a quick and responsive touring boat. I would think that she is light and fast and manoeuvres great. I use to sail a touring version of a 3/4 tonnes. So much fun; very fast and responsive.
The downside of that boat and your boat here is that she is old and ill taken care of, maybe also not made to the highest of standards because she had to be light. The general market pricing on these boats suggest that they are not considered worth that much.
I don´t know if the experts you have shown here are right, but I do believe that if the construction is intact and sound, which You are going to make it again, according to Your PLAN :-) then she should be able to stand on the keel just like basically all other normal boats, especially from that age, are able to. I never heard of a boat from that time that couldn't hold her own weight, sounds foolish.
Make sure that the skeg for the rudder is intact as those tend to get internal fractures over time given the pressure from the rudder.
You guys are showing something that looks for some experienced sailors like foolishness. But in fact these videos are showing people who have dreams and are going anyways, what can happen, and what you can do about it. Good job.
Fair winds.
Hope you all just keep sailing, regards a Frozen Fool On A Farm.
-40 wind chill here. Not on a farm, but definitly frozen....😟
That keel is lead NOT Stainless. I don't suggest "hanging" the keel. Get it all propped into it's natural position, but the keel should be supported, not hanging free. Also, Joel, I vote for a single beard braid ;-) and don't be afraid to over do this repair. You want this thing so strong that you boat could go through hell and you know for sure the keel will still be there on the other side.
The Bracket Design Shows (indicates) it's a non load Bearing Keel
get the boat stands high as possible b/c you'll need to drop the keel +3ft to replace the keel bolts. grind like hell where the keel meets the hull to replace the bolts, replace bolts and apply a ton of 5200 between the keel/hull. use a car jack to raise/lower the keel. most likely she won't be sea worthy for open water trips. btw that's a lead keel
What a monumental task, but you're both young, experienced, and you have the zeal it takes to get this boat seaworthy. I tip my hat to yall!
A boat like yours needs a cradle with the shape of the hull to support the weight. My boat has designated lift areas where there is extra support for the hull, this is where a cradle would go.
Unfortunately a cradle is not an option here and now that we are out it is what it is. Our only other option would be to sail to another marina with these damages which does not seem to be a smart play.
That is not that difficult to fix permanently. Taking the weight of the keel correct. The correct fix is to alter the rib structure to be a box beam construction. That involves applying thick sheet of fibre glass over the top of the ribs fully bonded down and protruding as far as possible to port and starboard. This will make the cavities seal spaces so they need to be dried and sealed with perhaps tar epoxy. You can also add glass to the outside of the hull in the most stressed area. You will have to fair that off and epoxy seal that (poly urethane paint) but this will toughen up the boat without affecting its sailing performance. I advise reading up on what box beams are and understand why they are superior to the “T” beam construction that you currently have. To me this is a very simple fix, the crack in the ribbing is inconsequential in a box construction as all of the load is taken on the skin (the hull skin and the new panel that you will be adding over the top of the ribs. This is how aircraft wings are built, only in an aircraft they use the space in between the skins as fuel tanks. The roll of the ribs in this construction is simply to space apart and join the two skins so that they cannot buckle. You may have to raise the floor boards by half an inch. Good luck.
Lift the hull just enough to restore its shape. No more. Keep the keel firmly on the ground. That's the only way you can remove and replace the broken keelframes. If you let the keel hang in the air (or water) during the repair the hull will probably deform in the other direction! At the moment your broken keelframes aren't stiffening the bottom, irrespective of the direction of the load.
Guys, please take some advice from a 71 year old ex-boat builder - be much more careful to insulate yourselves from all of the toxic things you are sanding (bottom paint, lead keel, etc.) - that is really, really nasty stuff that inters your body via pores - especially when it's hot and your body's pores are wide open. Wear Tyvek suits taped shut, rubber/nytril gloves, top quality respirators, cover every frigging part of your bodies and don't track the bad stuff into your boat. Don't pat the pretty lead keel with your bare hand! Throw out your protective clothing when you are done, don't wash it with other clothes. I'm serious - my body's immune system is jacked because of doing the same stuff you are doing now with the same poor protection schemes...it catches up with you later in life!
Okay thanks for looking out. We would be dumb not to listen to a man of your experience. Thought we suited up well but we will look for better suits although they have been hard to find. Wont touch the keel with bare hands in the future.
Bums on a Boat
What does this old man know? Do it in a bikini and a cloth over the mouth🤯🦄
J
You wanna watch out for marinas doing boat maintenance. Sometimes they add or break things that you are not aware of. I just put new engine and reverse gear and all new wiring and hydraulics. The estimate was 250,000 I got a final bill of 325,000. We are fighting with ship yard about the remainder of the balance. Remember boat stands for “break out another thousand “. Be safe
ABSOLUTELY.
DONT GET THAT CRAP IN YOUR LUNGS!!!!!
Okay guys, maybe this was said in your last video but you need to be damn sure you have that matrix grid fixed properly!!! Im not sure if you remember what happened to Cheeki Rafiki? Rafiki was a Bénéteau First 40, and she was built exactly like your boat with a grid matrix keel support setup, and it was lightly grounded a couple times before the keel broke off during an Atlantic crossing. There were 4 men aboard at the time and none survived, the boat was found by the US coast guard over a week later capsized barely above water with the keel missing. You can download the pdf of the official accident investigation into what happened. I encourage you to read it so you know what you are up against, and it is also very interesting and entertaining. Seriously though it has to be done right. her matrix was repaired but it wasnt done properly.
Okay we will check this story out. Another viewer shared a frighting video of boat going down quick in the 1995 World Cup.
@@Bumsonaboat Please do! There is a ton of information in the offical accident report about how the grid matrix can become detached from the hull without it being readily apparent via the clamping force of the keel bolts as well as tension from the rig closing up areas that have become de-laminated from the hull. When the boat is listing 20 degrees or whatever under sail the keel is effectively put under a side load. This side load and shock load from beating through rough seas is ultimately what tore the keel off and capsized the boat. Where your matrix is broken makes me believe that the exact same thing would happen if you were to be in heavy seas listing opposite of the worst cracks. Unfortunately when Rafiki lost her keel and capsized she was in the middle of the Atlantic in bad weather in total darkness. Two of the crew possibly were alive for up to 24 hours after the accident, but eventually lost consciousness in the cold and passed before help could find them.
I'm sorry but Cheeky Rafiki being a Beneteau was built in an entirely different method.Beneteaus have a structural liner that's bonded to the hull for rigidity and depend on the bond to stay whole. This system is convenient for the builder but very dangerous in case of a collision of which Cheeky Raffiki had some. I once saw a Beneteau First 35.5 that had a keel that wobbled from side to side just by pushing on it.Looking from the inside the keel nuts and bottom looked perfect but the liner had detached itself from the hull.
Hey guys, wish I was there to lend a hand. In my humble opinion it's not such a big deal, don't lose sleep over this. If it were me I would just build some hard wood ribs (or easier still just epoxy wood strips in situ, till you get the right thickness) and glass them in alongside the original grid. Use bottle jacks and some improvisation till you get the hull shape back. It doesn't have to be exact to the nearest thousandth of an inch. If it looks good it'll sail good. I wouldn't worry about trying to fix the original grid, looks like it has been tried before without success. Just glass over the cracks so no water seeps in.
Do all of this on the hard as the last thing you want is your keel flopping around with the waves as you try to glass in the new ribs. Plus you will need to do a bottom painting job, etc.
LOL I bet I'll get some flak for this advice, but it's just a boat, get it into the water ASAP. Go overboard on the over-engineering, looks like there were only three or four transversal supports so build six! Once you have built your extras you can rip out the old ones and replace them if you really want to but you would be surprised how much strength they still have, considering their entire length..
I guess the keel bolts are OK as nobody seemed to mention these.
Good luck! Looking forward to the progress reports so subscribed and SMASHED that there like.
I like to look at the cool side of this, u both are young, all the knowledge you are soaking up!! Amazing!! And how beyond proud you will be when you begin new journeys!!!! Awesome to watch!! Adore you both!!
CONCUR ! Too difficult to make the repair in the water.
PPS If both experts tell you the weight of the keel will pull back the hull into it's original shape IT ONLY MEANS YOU HAVE TO STRENGTHEN THE HULL WITH A SUPERSTRING GRID : because it shouldn't have happened in the first place. (sorry but my previous comments were made before watching your post entirely : I apologize).
A boat of which keels pounds on the grounds ages 10 years in 10 minutes… But a boat sound' fall sloppily on it's keel for the very reason it is lifted temporarily. It is either bad original design or because the frames had been mailed one way or another, and the longitudinal piece that cross the frames have been taking some rot too …
I really hope for the best.
Cheers !…
**HANG** The Keel In Dry Dock.... The Boat Was Made OUT OF THE WATER, not in the water.... Very glad you took my advice and got some experts ..... Props for that...... NOW, you have to raise the boat till the keel no longer touches the ground, then repair the cracks and any ribs...maybe even ad a few metal ribs and encase them in fiberglass, then fix the stuff you mention in the prior video.... Its gonna be a lot of work and will need an expert to help you with the keel and rib repairs, Structure is key ....... REMEMBER, with the boat in the water , the full weight of the keel area won't be as heavy and wont hang down as low as it will need to be and to get the correct shell shape as it had when it was made.... DRY DOCK RIB and KEEL REPAIR ONLY! .... NEVER make structural fiberglass repairs in the water!
Chock The Boat Up Off The Keel as my brother Mr Roach says!
Mr. Roach sadly we have exhausted all options to raise the boat up off the keel. There are many limitations here in the boat yard and this is one. At this point repairing it in the water is the best option. Otherwise we do it on the hard work the keel still being pushed up albeit much less now that we are moved.
@@Bumsonaboat best of luck to you
@@Bumsonaboat ....sending you all my best voodoo & mojo to get the job done right, maybe seal the outer bottom skin with a temp patch before dropping it in the water...water WILL GET IN ANY CRACK
Glad you had a few others take a personal look. I agree with most that you have a lead alloy keel. Pure lead is very soft and by adding other metals you can get a much more firm, less expensive keel. As much as I would like to float the boat to get the keel to hang, it is much safer to do it on stands. So long as the stands are on bulkheads, you should be in relatively good shape. No pun intended.
Props to you guys for taking care of your baby the right way. Looks like it’s going to be a journey, but I’m glad to tag along!
You can tell if there's steel near the surface with a magnet. Lead won't attract the magnet, but something beneath it might. If you do the magnet test, play around with it to try to get a feel for whether the magnet is attracted to the surface metal or something under it. If it is lead-coated metal or solid lead, you should be able to get a flake of the surface metal off with just any sharp metal tool, as lead is way softer than most other metals, especially steel. It could also be a steel or aluminum container with another metal for filler.
I'm no expert on boat design, but if it were up to me to make a boat, I'd definitely coat any submerged metal parts with lead. Very few metals and metal alloys can compare to how well lead resists salt water corrosion. Aside from gold, it is basically the best. Even naval brass isn't as good. And salt water is the bane of many types of stainless steels.
I looked it up ,ur keel is a poured LEAD keel like most production boats have ,stainless steel is rare and costly , I about flipped when I saw the boat yard guys standing ur boat on it's keel with spin Jack's , geez, I've worked at boat yards and built and repaired wood and fiberglass boats and custom one off racing sail boats for years so I'm a bit familiar with ur issues, for one keep ur boat out of the water and dry, epoxy and or poly resin won't stick to wet wood or a wet sub straight, lead is highly toxic and u prolly went over board grinding the whole keel ,but too late, u def need to put the boat in cradles to re establish the natural shape of the boats architecture, then ligtly block the bottom of the keel once and after it's in cradles and the keel /shape has settled down , u have two choices at that point, personally I would do it all from inside as presently nothing is protruding on the out side, remove more /as moch teak and Holly floor boards as needed and expose the entire keel grid stringer system, because there is an existing fracture u must go way beyond in every direction to over fix / rebuild this grid system to compensate for fracturing, I would grid off the edges of the poly glass encapsulating the worst area and proceed out from there ,removing the old fiberglass as u go, looking for cracked and wet stringer wood , once u indentify all the cracked and or rotten areas u must expose fresh wood and go wood to wood for repair before sealing again , u may want to replace some of the main stringers and simply tie in the existing stringers that are left , a little more now is a good thought , if done correctly u can sail again anywhere, I would use epoxy system to repair and seal, much stronger ,use acetone orr laquer thinner to prep before re sealing or applying any type of resins or products, a orbital sander w 80-100 grit will prep ur keel after small crack repairs , important not to chang the shape of ur keel ,don't sand too smooth as a little coarse ness will help a new gel coat or what ever u choose to re sealing ur outside keel area w, I would tackle the inside first ,let the keel settle once in cradles hit the stringers then keel last ,the keel bolts are cast and prolly not replaceable, but they shouldn't be an issue ,the problem is centered in the stringers not the keel bolts, I would not over do the outside of the keel,large cracks must be ground out and a strip or two of fiber cloth w epoxy should secure that ,the sand edges w orbital sander ,little cracks might be dealt w by light grind and applying straight epoxy coats in secession ,like one now then one more in an hour while last coat is still tacky, but once poly resin or epoxy hardens it off gases or blushes and u must sand or grind it to re establish a good bond again , it's called a lay up schedule, so once u remove all old glass needed to remove in stringers, replace what ever is needed , glue and secure all new wood ,then have all ur cloth layers pre cut and in a pile , be sure u have enough resin , gloves ,masks and acetone for clean up, u may want to write down a lay up schedule once u start resin application u must continue all layers until completed ,it u stop u have to sand and re prep all surfaces for maximum bond, when u cradle ur boat I would suggest looking it up on ur manufacturer recommend points ,I would speculate approx 1-3 feet in front of and 1-3 feet behind the keel should work fine ,use peices of 4x8 board styro foam to adjust hogging of the hull ,u can make cradles out of double or triple layer 5/8 or 3/4 plywood glued and screwed together ,for ur boat I would think 6 sheets and 2 more for end triangle supports on the cradles so that's maybe 8 total sheets of plywood, then 2x4s in x pattern to keep cradles from racking one on each base side also,use spin Jack's in conjunction w cradles to add needed support , get some big card board or poster board to make templates of ur hull shape , u should be able to make one for front (too but same shape half's) and one for back ,transfere to the plywood ,use jig saw to cut out leave at least a foot of wood on bottom for strength,add side plywood angles to keep upright, get old foam padding to put on exposed edge that will contact ur hull and re set ur boat in cradles ,so then do inside fix, while dealing w cracks on keel etc, same time, after inside is done sand and prep keel area ,I would either use a Wagner to spray a gel coat ,but u must spray then immeduately clean gun w laquer thinner ,as gel kicks off in 15-20 mins, then prep and spray bottom paint .if ur careful u can feather in new gel coat w old gel coat , more light coats is better , watch spray videos can help, spraying is a art lol ,the thought of splashing ur boat to do repairs is ludicris ,if a leak developed when repairing ur stringers us be screwed ,and have to pull it out again ,and start from scratch ,not to mention ur stringer strength would be compromised once removing damaged would ,dude keep the boat on dry land till fixed just make two cradles and go from there.if u can't afford to build the cradles I guess it could be done in the water but there r a few concerns ,first is condensation from temp inversions ,resins don't stick to water or condensation, and u may encapsulate moisture after spending money on new wood then sealing it up etc, we used to use numourus spin jacks if no cradle was available , but never did major stringer repairs in the water ,we also tied the spin Jack's together to keep from slipping etc,we also loosened up fore stays and back stays and halyards to reduce tension on the structure .
Wow, okay first thing that comes to mind is that this Marina doesn't have the necessary equipment to cradle our boat. The trailer is all they have for moving boats and spin Jacks are the only method for blocking boats here. We recently moved the boat and were hoping they could block the boat with the keel hanging but the boat yard manager was not comfortable with the idea. There was no way to remove the trailer without any weight on the keel however now that we are on more level ground the keel has lowered quite a bit although it is not exactly back to natural form. Here in the D.R. we are limited in some ways but we believe there is still a way albeit not ideal. As of now it appears our best option is to do all external repairs/paint on the hard and return to the water for a dicy repair to the grid. Again we realize this is not the preferred method but all we are focused on is doing the best we can with what is available. Appreciate all the info on how to perform the repair. We will now be able to reference this comment at any time and that is so valuable.
Seems like most people are in agreement with this issue, my previous comments in the earlier video were cradle the boat, and do all the work from inside, following the stringers right up the hull to where they end and grind out, epoxy new ones, longer, thicker and wider then do chop rovings and 3 layers of bi-axial alternating the direction of the weave. All on the hard from inside
sue the dock master! this is boat poo!!!! buy a new boat? your boat is f#$%ked
Dennis Corso p
That must be the longest sentence In the world !
Keep your heads up! Lots of work ahead and there are moments you will question everything but as you already have you will learn and grow and I have no doubt you will be able to get it fixed. Looking forward to following along.
Hi Guys! I have been binging on your episodes for the last week or so. Love all the sailing and technical/fixing bits and it's been great following your adventure! Looking forward to more installments! Good luck and all the best for the future. I will be watching! m
Been following you guys for about 2 weeks and wish you luck on your boat she’s a beauty looking forward to coming videos Peace
They actually agreed on all points.. just a matter of semantics as to how to relax the keel... they both agreed that the thing needed the stress removed.. a pocket knife will tell you what the keel is made of.. lead can be shaved with a knife.. not so much stainless..
Plenty of well meaning/ ill informed opinions here. My two cents worth
1 Take advice of Eric Morris
2 Seek wise counsel (eg 0:09 )as to whether your time resources would be better spent elsewhere
3 Great luck!
Stainless steel is a very hard steel and lead is a soft material. Take a nail ( like a 8 penny) and see if you can start to drive it in. If it goes in a bit it is lead if not some king of steel. My guess is that it is lead since that is easy to shape compared to the other choices. Take the load off the keel and see if the structure changes. You will be getting some experience in fiber glassing in the near future and making gussets and things. You'll do fine.
Uncle Muir always great to hear from you. We will do that test, from what you say I'm pretty sure it's lead. We attempted to take the load off and will be giving a much sooner update to you and the Patrons. Didn't exactly work out but it's all good. Always exciting to learn new things by doing them.
Should be able to tell while grinding. Lead will melt when it gets hot. Also lead will probably fill up your sand paper and your grinder would dig into it pretty easily.
To determine keel of lead or steel should be fairly simple. Lead is way softer than steel. You should be able to push a pocket knife blade into lead but you can't even scratch steel with a knife.
Dont loose hope guys! You can do whatever you want to achieve! Stef
We know you can relate and it was great lesson to watch you two come up with positive thoughts while getting towed in after damages.
Wow! Miss Lone Star is followin?? Yall doing something good! Gonna binge vid ya now!! Gatta catcth up.
Makes me worry that the ship has an unnatural/natural state. If the mast came down to the bottom, would that have been a design issue to keep min hull flex??
Anyway...great channel!!
@@ascott6804 we have had the pleasure of meeting Steph in person.
Its possible, the mast is bolted to the keel in the drawings.
wow you guys know Stephaan and Aubrey?? Keep them close those kids know what they are doing! If they watch you it seems I need to start watching from the top!
@@ascott6804 I was thinking the same thing... Miss Lone Star is in my top 5 on YT
Good job guys, I'm glad to see you guys talked to knowledgeable people. Sounds like you might get out of this fairly well. Sometimes boats will have labels on the hull that point to where it's best to lift it.
Glad to see you guys are in good spirits.....Too bad your not on the hard in St.Petersburge FL.I would love to help and learn....Baby Lola is almost not a baby anymore....She growing fast.....see you on the next video.......T.Gunz.........🙂
Stainless & lead are easy to tell apart. Lead is squishy & soft, and you can scratch it with a fingernail with a bit of effort. Stainless will trim your nails if it has a sharp enough edge.
I don't know of any stainless steel keels. Cast iron, concrete. lead shot, cast lead... never any stainless.
Stainless would give You sparks when ground with corundum. I would doubt the idea of a full stainless keelfin. Several comments about that and how to determine lead already present.
And when it comes to the problem with this alleged hanging-only keelfin construction ... putting it back into water would be the right choice then, as sort of her "natural habitat" so to say.
Might first need a new barrier layer and mending the stinky osmosis spots outside though - I still would strongly recommend an in-water-repair instead of torturing the hull even more with pointed "high heel" load peaks where You "lift" her by hydraulic jacking into a hanging keel situation. I understand there is no travellift, and even if so, You could not borrow that for a fortnight straight to reshape her into naturally hanging keel form, could you ....?? When already at it, I even would double or triple up the keelfin hanging points inside to enable unspectacular slip haulout at least for next time. If You want do that, look up "sandwich laminate theory" and "constructing cored laminate hulls" to learn what's crucial to come to strong, reliable constructions/repairs (All my books dealing with this theme are German, so I can not even recommend anything I'm afraid 🙄) ... bloody simple once You understand how sandwich laminates produce spherical strength.
Poor sandwich construction: th-cam.com/video/tYnEcPAhruc/w-d-xo.html
Cheers 🍻
OMG this video is terrifying!! We are now confident that the keel is lead. We will study up on sandwich laminate theory/constructing cored laminate hulls. Really leaning towards adding extra keelson hanging points inside. Also it looks like repairing in the water is our best option at this time.
@@Bumsonaboat Yes it is frightening. Australia one was poorly built because of weight restrictions the consortium layed upon the yard when they got intel about their competitor's boats/weights (at least that's what a participant of the building crew told me years later). So lightweight isn't the issue, but the construction has to be different when less strands are to be built in -there was no time to do it properly.
Now, Australia one was swarmed with helping boats. Imagine those 60 to 90 seconds being alone and beyond landsight and in a somewhat choppy ocean less warm than in Luperon .... You would be happy having Your liferaft stowed outboard and not below the boom, wouldn't You? That's why some people have a "grab sac" with the most important documents and equipment/charts/compass when going on a crossing.
In terms of repair: You might consider filling the now open/deeper parts beneath the keelbolt podests with a somewhat strong core material and laying several layers of bidirectionally needled glass rovings ontop of that, ending on Your hull-inside 20 to 80 cm all around (I would lay up 70 % diagonal and 30 % more longitudinal /90° -ish): that would give the keelfin a strong topend connection to hull via new keelson. Most important would be the bond of new fill-in core to existing keelson and hull ... gotta put it in with slooooooow epo to avoid sinkholes/cavities under all circumstances.
Too fast a bonding mixture would cook up in its exotherm reaction and thus render itself useless also in terms of glueing property. If in doubt, put core in in layers. That's what I'd do in low-tech conditions. For such layers there is valid the same idea of boundary constructing / overlaying bond I already described with the osmosis cavity fill-ins, of course.
You want each layer have its own bond to the hull. Good luck!
I have a Catalina 34 fin keel a few yrs had a bad grounding had keel removed and structural issues repaired and beefed up cost 38 thousand dollars once keel was off transverses or ribs where spilt in half only visible from the bottom. Lead keel is soft you can scratch it with screwdriver steel won’t mark it and sailboats should be lifted by hull straps not under the keel
Awesome that you didn’t throw the towel in on your boat and you guys are going to fix the girl she has many years left in her I love y’all s videos cheers oceancowboy from Texas
Good luck guy, I'm looking forward to this adventure. Lots of comments below to take note of. Watch the lead, dont want in your system, very bad for you.
If the keel were lead it would have clogged up the sandpaper like there was no tomorrow.
Glad to see you're tending to those frame members.
It might be easier to cut it off and cast a new one out of Bronze. Just need the shape and weight right. Then build up the inside of the boat to bolt it on.
Going to have to make a ship craddle.
Mark where the lifting straps are supposed to go for next time!
Get a drill, drill a small hole in the keel and collect all the metal shavings, then take down to a metal analyzer lab that test for metal content in used oil, and they will tell you the composition of the metal. Be SURE to inquire if the have a ICP Inductively Coupled Plasma machine. While an AA (Atomic Absorption) machine can do the same analysis you just as well should give money to a ICP lab.
Hammer and a magnet. Strike it with a hammer. If it dings its iron based, if it thuds and dents, thats lead. Then stick a magnet on it. Stainless won't stick. Or throw some salt water on and watch... lol
I totally agree. I've done a similar repair on my Beneteau. You need it in the natural state for repair. I don't think any fin keelers can be lifted by the keel. But whiles she's out and up put some "SLING" marks where the next place should put the slings. I'd check with your two pros on that too. But then paint 2" dots on the hull near the toe rail. That's the sling lines. Also do it on the inside of the toe rail as the lift operators may be able to see those just as easy for alignment purposes.
Abandon hope? Never that! A simple tap of a hammer should give you all the info you need. Those two metals are of vastly different densities. Lead will make a "thud" like hitting wood, and stainless a "clang".
I know you guys must be "bummed out" (pun intended) with your haul-out discovery. Rest assured it has happened to many of us. I remember well hauling out my newly purchased Cape Dory 30 the first time only to discover the rudder was bent to starboard by 10 degrees, broken at the bottom and hanging loose. I had no idea what to do, and no one would help me. Getting the rudder out was a nightmare. Long, sad story short....I was in the boat yard for over 30 days taking care of that nasty surprise. Bright side: I took photos and wrote an article for "Good Old Boat" magazine. Made myself $$$$$ to help defray the cost of the whole fiasco. So, take lots of photos and write an article for some sailing magazine as you fix (and you will eventually fix it!) your problem. Good luck.
Whilst you do have broken floors that require fixing, the Carter 33 and 30 did have that concaved shape.... The Australian production Carter 33 and 30 had that shape.... a little disconcerting when you first look at it. I suggest you check the design and other Carter 33's of the same production and see if they have the concave shape. Regardless once the floors are fixedand the structure is sound, I have never heard of a boat that couldn't sit on it's keel
I would confirm the design
Hopefully everything works out with the keel sounds like a lot of work! But at least you know now how to do haul outs with her now so maybe the repairs will hold up better.
I'm pretty sure that sailing uma went through the same thing. Don't know how long ago put y'all might get some pointers. Be grateful that y'all are young and healthy because that makes me hurt just thinking about all the work. Fair seas my friends ⛵⚓🐕
Lead is heavy and soft so soft you can make it with a figure nail. And stainless puts of sparks and it's hard.
I enjoy sitting on my sofa and watching others work. so therapeutic. ...good job guys .
It is going to be hard work but it is worth it. Another boat is not a better solution and no boat neither. Cheers
wow, i can see that this video attracts a lot of people with specialist knowledge which is great! it almost looks like these bums seem to enjoy taking the challenge and grow at it. To bellyache about the issue is not their option at all as it seems. would like to see more folk having this attitude, it would be a much better world. "nur die Harten.....!" cheers alex
The keel is lead for sure!
No sparks when grinding.
Stainless cost 5 x what lead does.
I have looked at your video a couple of times now, it looks to me like lead. Lead is soft, if you hit it with a hammer it will dent but its composition will not really effect the method of repair to the grid. When cutting out the supporting grid dont be frightened to take out more than the minimum. The more you can spread the load (for if/when it is taken out of the water next time by you or someone else) the better. Also check your keel bolts for rust/corrosion while your at it. Good luck folks, at least you will get proficient at fibre glass repairs. You also might want to consider an earth from your mast to the keel in case of lightening strike. Best wishes from the UK.
Lead is SOFT, can dent it with a hammer.
Try a magnet, depending on the alloy of stainless a magnet will stick....
Id say just off the amount of weight it would need to keep the boat upright it has to be lead steel wouldn't be dense enough for that small a keel to work
A cast iron keel probably would take up all of the space inc the fiberglass bit on the back. As iron is not as heavy as lead. Per cube.
Its bloody steel, Guys. It may have lead shot inside. Lead on its own would never take the side way loads.
One thing I'm not sure about is why the whole of the keel isn't made of steel. Maybe to save money?????
@@nigelspendlove9088 most likely. Nigel maybe right, most lead keels are at the base. I'm nothing near a marine mechanic, however, correct me if I'm wrong, I would believe the lower the weight the better the ballist. But as as Richard stated, lead is soft and wouldn't be best for a full keel. I can't wait for the conclusion on what you find out.
Its definitely not stainless steal, hit it with the angle grinder and see what sparks come off it, depending on what color and how many sparks there are you can easily decipher which material it is. Its either lead, cast iron/steel. If its hard its cast iron/ steel, if its soft its lead.
Best of luck.
There are worse places to get stuck for a while. Keep enjoying life. Peace.
Interesting to go back in time like Marty McFly to see how the story progressed. Also glad that future is less hairy :-)
Never commented on a video before, but need to do it now. Found yall a few days ago and have binge watched the whole story already. Keep up the good work! I love your dedication!
Nice to see you learning as you go well done both of you
I wouldn't recommend supporting the hull 100% with stands, you could hole the hull. She should have been able to be supported by the keel no problem, so might be best to do that repair on the water.
That's lead. They don't make keels out of stainless, only cast iron or lead, or in some wooden boats or steel boat they use steel pellets and concrete (not recommended in steel boat). Stainless makess no sense below the waterline, as it can't form an oxide layer which makes it resistant to rust/corrosion. Also it's density isn't much different from steel and it's far far more expensive. Lead is also very expensive but is far superior as ballast due to it's weight per volume.
@4:35 I Agree... On the hard , keel suspended.. Still a dicey job, it needs major support.
If it doesn't dent easy, it's not lead. Also stainless is not magnetic. So if it is hard and non-magnetic, it's stainless. Getting two experts and not at the same time was a good method. I got your letter guys, very impressed at the level of personal attention. Here's a return gift for the channel...your very own bingo game. www.dropbox.com/s/luxp7u1082wvo2x/BoaBbingo.pdf?raw=1