I'm alright with side character social links, but I feel like the main party's social links present an interesting writing problem; the main plot can never reflect the character development from the social links because they have to write around the possibility that the player could consider never doing the social links, meaning some characters will feel out of character during key story beats depending on if you have done the link or not
Yeah I can definitely see the writing constraints. When viewed overall it is great, but it could be so much better with a bit more variance on even some dialogue in the main story
Sounds like a good way to introduce a bad ending. "You haven't had any social interaction, you're not powerful enough for the final boss." or something else.
@@harrietr.5073 honestly that would be really cool to see, alongside some scenes that change depending on how many social links you've at least started
Because the male party members from P3 didn’t originally have Social links that meant that they had their own complete story arcs in the main campaign, so when social links were added later, they focused on aspects of their character which we knew a bit of but simply weren’t given too much attention, to me this is my ideal writing style for party member social links, letting them have an overarching narrative in the main game but elaborating and exploring them a bit deeper in the social links
Exactly! Just like the female party members in FES. You already get a full view of the characters during the story as an integral part of their characters, but their social links build upon other sides of their character. Like Yukari during the story fleshing out how she is affected by her relationship with and loss of her father, but her social link focusing on how her relationship with her mother is affected by it. And Mitsuru during the story focusing on her responsibilities as heir to the Kirijo group and grappling with the sins of her father despite her love for him, while her social link focuses on how her everyday life and outlook on the world is shaped by her upbringing and different set of priorities. They have enough development during the story that you can understand and adore them, but the social link is also there to add to the parts of who they are that can't be expressed during the story. And I absolutely believe that Persona Evolution should be tied to story and not social links. Arcanas Ultimate Personas are a good enough reward for completion in their own right.
While the series doesn't explicitly "need" social links, I believe that they've become a core part of the franchise's appeal at this point and removing them would not only greatly alienate the player base, but it would also take away from one of the overarching ideas introduced in the Hashino era games. That being the effects strong bonds can have on individuals. While every game in the modern trilogy has very distinct core themes, all of them push the message that accepting new people into our lives can change our perspective for the better. Persona 4 is the most blatant example of this since it applies to both the main party members as well as the game's major antagonist. Adachi was someone who lacked any sort of meaningful connection in his life and ended up growing resentful toward his situation because he thought he deserved better. This isolation, combined with his superiority complex, eventually lead him to develop a nihilistic view of the world itself. In contrast, the members of the investigation team are able to change themselves for the better because they learn to open up to other people. The resolution to the party member's stories is tied to their social links to help enforce this idea. The player needs to go out of their way to support their friends in their time of need so that they can fully move past their personal issues. If social links were removed and all of this content was instead presented in the main story, I think it would lessen the impact of the game's message for a few reasons. Not only would there be inherently less time dedicated to those characters' arcs for the sake of keeping the game's pace smooth but by removing the player agency, the conclusions that the characters come to wouldn't feel nearly as impactful. I can't imagine a version of Persona 4 without social links because they're integral to the way that game handles its core message and I believe that removing them for the series would do far more harm than good at this point.
I really do enjoy the social link/confidant system as I like how each story is like a 'mini-arc' reflecting some of the core traits and problems within that respective arcana. Especially with the confidant system, I like how there's a intrinsic gameplay buff to doing them outside the usual bonus EXP/final persona unlock, some of which can be pretty underwhelming once you finally get them. Having said that, I would like the party member social links to be remembered. If I romance someone, it would be nice for that to mentioned and brought up in the plot from time to time. It shouldn't be the hardest to integrate, just have a scene play out in say, two or three different ways depending on if you're at a particular rank with someone relevant to it. And in general, balance out some of the development so your party members still get some growth as a part of the plot; I couldn't tell you how Ryuji grew as a character if you never did his confidant, for example. I'm also mixed on forced story progression links. There's no good reason why Morgana's persona needs to be at the first tier until Christmas Eve. And lastly, balance out the rewards a bit. The Devil confidant in P5 is really difficult to justify outside of completionism. I guess overall that sounds like a lot of problems, but I do really like the system, it just needs refining.
The issue with writing plot scenes depending on SLs is that they have to account for not only all Social Links (or alteasy the party member SLs), but also for you potentially dating multiple girls There's also the fact that they have to keep it purposefully vague so when a spin-off inevitably comes out it won't feel too awkward when the characters don't bring up whatever romance you pursued in the original
The interesting writing problem I've encountered through P3-P5 is the inconsistency with how the SLs end with your party members specifically; this applies to the male members as well. With how much you advanced through their SLs and seeing the bond you've made with them, once you move on with the story, the inconsistency starts to show with how they treat you in comparison to their respective SLs. I've maxed out the entire Investigation Team in P4 for instance but when I continue on the main story, the difference the interactions between them and the MC starts to show. I'd like to see P6 putting on more emphasis to how SLs work and make it a lot more natural and seamless with the main story to the point that it adapts to your current SL level and gives out different lines and events based on your current SL level. It's more of a nitpick for me as I don't personally care. Persona has many amazing SLs and so this is more of a very incremental thing I just pointed it out.
yeah, this is the kind of game that would go a very long way if it had that insane level of detail you see in something like the witcher 3, in which you get entirely new lines of dialogue depending on the order you talk to different npcs
The P5 formula is why I think Mishima is my favorite honestly. He has to change and grow on his own and in doing so takes accountability by his own merit. Almost feels like an integral part of the game to me, always liked his arc.
I think a bigger problem you overlooked with both P4 and P5 style party member social links is the fact that the character development that happens to the main characters is exclusive to the social links themselves. In pretty much every case, the characters change and grow for the better, only to go back to being undeveloped in any main story scenes, because they can't assume you've done their social links and seen them change. This is a huge problem that doesn't really have a solution, aside from doing it how it was done in P3, i.e. keeping character development outside of social links(well, except for the ladies, I suppose). Imagine if everything to do with Ken and Akihiko was locked behind doing their links, and they just kept acting like they hated each other and didn't grow from everything they went through together in the story. It would be pretty awful, and is something I wouldn't be able to overlook. Characters like Kanji, Yosuke, Naoto, Ryuji, Yusuke, Futaba, they all suffer from having to write them as if the development never happened outside of the link itself. Hell, if you don't progress Ann's link, you don't get to see what happens with Shiho. This is the main problem I have with how P4 and P5 handled social links, specifically for the main party members.
I don't see how Ken and Akihiko's stories would even fit in the social links actually, their whole arc has absolutely nothing to do with the Protagonist.
Personally, I’m fine with how they’re done now. They’re optional in the first place and aren’t vital. The cast of 4 and 5(Yes even Haru) are still meaningful and developed 3-dimensional characters that feel real even without social link development.
@@digimonlover1632 yeah it's fine, Yukiko's character arc about inheriting the Inn has nothing to do with the main story (the murder mystery) of P4 and it's more of her personal issue. Same goes for Rise accepting her role of being a pop idol, once again it's just her own personal issue.
Fun fact: Persona Dating Sim / Social Links / Time Managment aspects was inspirited by Sakura Wars games. In Sakura Wars games you also build relationships with main characters (and some side characters in later games) in similar way like in later Persona Social Links, but big diffirence in Sakura Wars games is - each decision in Visual Novel segments not only can affect possitively but also negatively on your girls in combat section (by boosting or decreasing her stats in battle, something like temporary buffs or debuffs), not only possitively like in Persona games. And Sakura Wars games had ,,Clock System'' (each interaction with characters cost 5 minutes from 1 hour free time between main story events), Persona have ,,Calendar System''. I prefer Clock System from Sakura Wars 2-5 games because dont affect negatively on story pacing (no loadings and fillers), when Calendar System is sometimes annoying (tones of loadings screens) and negatively affect on story pacing (fillers). If you play So Long My Love on PS2 (game from 2005) u can see a lot similarites between this game and Persona 4.
Yeah Sakura Wars is a better series for this because it was built in from the jump and much more heavily intended to be THE focus of the series, rather than the half and half balance Hashino's Persona tries to play. In presentation and structure, all main Sakura Wars games are designed to feel like you're playing a romantic comedy mecha series with the action serving as episode climaxes. Persona first and foremost is an RPG and so it can't ever let the SoL sim half go ham and become the priority, else they lose the actual roots of Persona
@@MagillanicaLouM After playing Sakura Wars 3 (maxing all routes) on my Dreamcast i dont know why, but I cant just go back to Perosna 3-5. Now i see how bad Social Elements are implfied in those games, especially how bad is Calendar System who ruins only story pacing. As you mentioned Persona 3-5 it really feels like they added half baked Dating Sim to generic highschool JRPG, when series from origins (Persona 1-2) never was build arround romance aspects. If you add Dating Sim to (for example) Valkyria Chronicles, you fast discover that something is wrong with game. When people play Persona 3-5 ONLY for Social Links why just dont play regular Dating Sim or hybrid games which did better job whith romance aspect.
@@chillracks1311 I respect it thematically in 3 but afterwards its like it's kept in just to have it. And it gets annoying for me when it clashes it with itself, during those parts in the games where it just takes your control of it away for a bit as some story event eats away a couple weeks. And just the "limited time in a day" thing in general is done better elsewhere imo.
I like how P3 did social links mechanically. Persona's main themes are ideas of the self and the bonds you make with others. The relationship decay is a good idea, although could be better handled. Imagine ghosting someone that poured their heart out to you for three months. I liked how reversals were more common in 3. Relationships aren't just a easy ride. Sometimes you screw up and make people upset. Persona is not too hard a game but, making the time management more of a challenge is a good thing imo. Reminds me of the bomb system in Tokimeki Memorial. I also liked how characters weren't dependent on the player's action to develop. P3 having character's arcs more tied to the plot than thrown in a social link makes them feel more important and proactive to the story taking place. It felt like 4 and to a less extent 5 had these characters not develop as the plot progress to put in a social link that you could miss completing. I just really like P3 okay.
The reverse social link when making a bad decision is a really cool thing but I still dislike the fact that the girl social links are auto-romance routes and they all want your dick in 5 interactions. And if you spend time with an another girl they'll get jealous. That's why I just picked only one girl I liked the most and did her social link. Most of the time I spent was with boy social links or the non-school ones. On the other hand, Junpei doesn't have a social link in the game, yet he still remains the most developed character in P3, going from an envious, selfish asshole who fights shadows for fun to a determined partner who found meaning in life. That is why he's my favorite character in Persona 3.
tokimeki "migraine simulator" memorial is a bit too far in the opposite direction lol. but im with you that its nice to feel like theyre real people that will get mad at you sometimes.
I disagree, I mean if you remove social links it defeats the point of the calendar system, remove that and lose quite a bit of fans. Plus the difficulty mostly comes from time management anyhow.
fun fact, femc was intended for persona 3 from the very start, including the exclusivity of party member social links, but at some point it got cut. It seems for some reason, they always wanted every party member slink to be romantic.
I feel like social links bring more negatives to the table than positives. Especially now that 80% of "character development" is through social links, but don't actually change much of anything. Also 2nd awakenings should absolutely be tied to the story like Persona 3.
@@WhiteWomanSlasher I have. And more people would if Atlus cared enough to port them. If they can port Soul Hackers and remake Strange Journey there's no reason why they shouldn't port Persona 1 and 2.
Atlas doesn't need to port shit, its just people being lazy as fuck. P1 and P2IS/EP is so easy to emulate but people are just so lazy to do it or simply don't give a fuck about the older titles.
@@sonicsucks2961 What kind of brain dead logic is that? Persona 3 Portable is just as easy to emulate as those two, does that mean it shouldn't be included? I've already emulated both games, and I'd still pay a fair price for it. Especially if they actually improved the game.
I think social links are necessary (but if we keep confidant perks, then we need some balancing) but I wish main cast had more story related character development. Like in P3, when characters dealt with their loses, found new determination to keep fighting and had their second awakening. Besides, we can keep the third awakening as something depending on player's action. Like, I wouldn't mind third awakening happening in P5 when main cast was locked in cells of Velvet Room, sure it would potentially take much longer to get through that scene, but it would be rewarding to see that characters with maxed social links gain motivation and power based on things they encountered so far as part of the main plot and things they learned and understood from spending time with you. So, basically, I want highlight of a story to be not protag punching his therapist, but people around him growing. (god I hope that makes sense, lol)
LOL yeah I can understand that basically part. Fleshing out characters over the course of the story would be nice and show a different side to them aside from the points I brought up in the video
Yeah I think tying party character's social links to game play could be a resolution. Essentially make unavailable time (ex time between morning and afternoon) a forced link once certain thresholds are met with the tipping point being in the main story and the extra fluff being accessed through something like character quests. Give the party controlled variability so the link will always be progressed to certain points with the main story.
I see what you're getting at, but I think that the cast has somewhat more understated character development in 4 and 5. Yukiko opens up to the others over time, and even has laughing fits around them. Yosuke goes from angrily wanting to kill Namatame, the supposed killer, for revenge to calmly handing Adachi, the real killer, over to the police. Ann ends up having to come to grips with her not being able to do anything for Shiho, which helps her forgive Makoto. Ryuji loses sight of why he became a Phantom Thief in the first place, but eventually comes to his senses.
I think the solution is simple: Either incorporate a bit of variety in the main plot to fit some SL character development, or make the SLs all about things not that related to the main plot at all. I personally prefer the latter because it allows further fleshing out. A great example imo is Haru in P5. Her confidant is mostly about her struggles in the aftermath of her father's death (and all the corporate consequences that entailed), and also about her hobby of growing vegetables and later on coffee. It gives insight into her family (with the conversations about her grandfather), her hobbies, and the inner workings of Okumura foods (including the power struggle that came after Okumura's death). It's a highlight for how much it expands her character (and let's be honest, she needed it), and most importantly it doesn't conflict with anything in the main plot because it explores a side of her personality that doesn't show up during the main struggle of P5. I think that even if they took this route with the SLs, they should think about incorporating some aspect of variation for SL progression in the plot. A good example in P5 is Mishima. His confidant is a really good character arc, but because it deals with his most important trait in the main plot, it seems like nothing changed in the major scenes. But he's in few enough scenes where accounting for the variation of the SL would be possible imo. Just stuff like him having a more mature relationship with the PTs would be enough. I think that's the main flaw of Persona games at the moment.
Imo social links are what I enjoy the most about Persona. Just like how I enjoy the supports in Fire Emblem (even tho persona takes it further). I feel they're good ways to grow close to the character and learn about them and Atlus also does a good job relating them to their arcana. Without them there wouldn't be as much to distinguish persona from other smt games a whole lot. Or that's at least what I think. The social links are the bulk of the gameplay for me lol
Yeah there is good and bad social links and good and bad ways to implement social, but critiquing social links as a whole feels like critiquing a genre for doing the genre well. The whole point is general slice of life motifs mixed with metaphysical motifs to express connection to characters and explore metaphysical thoughts and stories. not liking social links really comes down to two spheres: the implementation could change for specific games/links or i dont like slice of life. Call me elitist, but "I dont like slice of life" should not be acknowledged in a series who lean so much on slice of life.
@@enrique7934 that would be implementation, not social links or slice of life elements as a whole. Youd literally make persona less unique, less holistic, and less persona removing modern slice of life elements. Even the original games without social links had plenty of slice of life elements to them. Plus the categorization between visual novels and an rpg like persona is largely just for ease of language. When it comes to building and designing an jrpg with the themes and motifs regularly used by all of the persona games, there is a huge overlap of available design principles of visual novel and jrpg
@@astaldo well that's not true. Everyone likes to say "1&2 are just like other megaten games" but a key difference is that even without social links, 1&2 are vastly more character driven than the mainline megaten series, most of those dont even give your party members character, they're just the demons. But what makes me prefer Persona without the social links is... There's no calendar system, BUT also that any character focus is done more impactfully. The most common thing discussed in this comment section is how party member social link development doesn't carry over into the main story, and so just creates huge dissonance. Now, this is also partially a byproduct of the calendar system as well, but still an issue of the current format. And it's simply not an issue that can be fixed without ditching the current format. Tony also mentioned how in 1&2, side characters get nothing, and yeah while you're not gonna get hours of a personal individualized story, there are still side characters that actually do get highlight and charm whether through P1's 2nd story in Snow Queen Quest, or the rumor mongers and other sidequests in the P2s. And I would personally prefer this approach again, over the devs taking time to create what, 10+ side narratives of varying quality that may or may not tie into whatever the game's big theme is? I get to a lot of players they just like to spend time with a character they dig or collect waifus, and despite the tone of my comment, I do enjoy a lot of s.links or at least the characters attached to them, and also think the extra gameplay benefits p5 provides is a good step forward. But I definitely would not lose sleep should they be removed. Nor would Persona "just become SMT" since it was already vastly different before including them.
Great video. I 100% agree that social links are what differentiates Persona from other JRPGs. I wouldn’t mind in the future a better balance of driving character interaction of the main party outside of the social link system, but overall I’m happy with where it is. It’s unique and one of the main things I look forward to when playing P3-5. Also…the calendar system must stay, again something else that is unique to the game play.
I think Persona 3 and 4 had somewhat of the right idea of how to utilize their social links. In the case of 3, I think the decay or jealousy mechanics are actually a really cool idea, but it's held back by y the lack of choice to not romance a girl making it frustrating. It's nice though that the female party member social links aren't that extremely important to their character development outside of the story unlike 4 and 5. Persona 4 has some really interesting social links in terms of how they function like how you can have an entire different link with Ai Ebihara depending on what you say to her or the Strength social link where you can either choose to hang out with Daisuke or Kou. And while some integral character development to your party is unfortanately locked behind their social links, having them learn new moves for their Personas as well as some really helpful assist abilities is a nice reward. Persona 5, however, I think goes way too overboard. Now every social link has some benefit outside of experience and can completely break the game. And honestly, this made me less interested in the struggles of the characters and more interested in the rewards that I would get from them. There's a lot of great social links in P5, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't do another rank because I wanted a discount on my medicine or to learn a cool gun trick.
Great video! One thing that you didn’t mention about the social links is how the simple existence of them reinforces the main theme of each game. In Persona 3, the main theme is Death and the search of a reason to live even in the face of death and the protagonist reason to live are the new people he met and became friends and eventually created solid bonds, which are the social links (the party as a whole represented by the fool and the judgement arcanas). In Persona 4, one of the differences between the protagonist and Adachi (the second most important antagonist) is how the protagonist makes bonds with everyone around him and because of that he is not alone and doesn’t become resented and nihilistic like Adachi. Izanami (as far as I understand her lore) was also abandoned and in her loneliness distorted the TV world and the protagonist bonds show her the Truth of the importance of connections. Finally, in Persona 5, the Rebellion theme is reinforced by knowing how each confidant defies the oppressive rules of the world and in Royal the theme of overcoming the pain is also improved by seeing how much better each confidant ends their journey, specially when compared to where they were before meeting Joker. Also, it gives a great excuse to have a final moment where “the power of friendship wins the game”, because the protagonist earned the friends he makes, he (maybe she in P3P) invested time (and sometimes money - Tanaka in P3 and Chihaya and Kawakami in P5) and because of that, the final moment feels more special than otherwise. One thing that I would like to see in Persona 6 is a “True ending” only possible if you max out all the party member social links (or confidants). At least some extra cutscenes where the game recognizes that feat in the final battle would be nice.
Thanks! That's very true about the themes. I mentioned it a bit at the end of each segment, but didn't expand on it much for time reasons. Each of those interpretations for the games is spot on though
Personally I don't think they're necessary, the Classic Persona trilogy showed how they can make very memorable characters without them being relegated to an optional mechanic, at least that's what I think
A lot of what you said reminded me of Projared’s video on Final Fantasy 6 and why that game is held in such a high regard. He argued that it’s not a bad thing to have sequences that don’t directly progress the plot if they develop character. Having social link type interactions not only allows the player to get more immersed in the world making events more meaningful, but persona also gives the player the control to dictate how much of an investment they want to make. May have consequences to other qualities of the game but from a world building standpoint it’s why these games are so much more memorable than others.
I remember when I first played Persona 3 in my final year of high school, and then Persona 4 when I started college, the social links and entire vibe of managing a JRPG side to a game but also a more communicative and character focused downtime experience was something that blew me away. Persona 1 and the 2 duology are both good and have lots to love about them, but a Persona game without Social Links or Confidants wouldn't really feel like a Persona game to me. Unless it's like a spinoff, akin to P4AU or P5S.
Before watching: my main criticism of social links is that they divide your limited time outside of gameplay a bit to 'manic-ly' and it triggers some of the FOMO trouble I have with games if I don't fit enough visits with X character within certain time-frames. I like incentives for hanging out but I don't like character developments being super miss-able or tied behind high social stats. I still like S-links now but they could be better.
The time outside of dungeon crawling is also gameplay. But, a different form which is time management. Where you are strategizing how to best spend your time. You usually see this genre combined with stat raisers. (which if you think about it, rpg's are basically stat raisers.) I whole heartily agree with character development being relegated to social links. I believe the story should be for development and social links should serve as fleshing out the character.
I like social links but I feel like it's needs improving. My issues stem from party member SLinks in P4 and P5 and the calendar/social stats mechanic. When I first played P4 and P5, I didn't finish a single party member SLink because I assumed I would learn about them from the main story so I would rather hang out with side characters. I was disappointed when I realized how the main narrative doesn't do much or anything with the party members after they join. On top of that, the fact the character's SLinks can't affect the main story/how they act in the main story annoys me. One of my friends did Ryuji's SLink in the hopes he would become a better character in the main story. When Ryuji remained static my friend felt the SLink was a waste of time from a narrative perspective. P4G and P5R having mandatory SLinks to unlock the true ending also means prioritizing certain characters, that you may not even like, just to get the bonus content those versions were advertised with. The calendar kills the pacing in P3, P4 and P5 for me. P3 gave a reason for why you have to wait so much but, P4 and P5 feel like it's just there cause P3 did it. Having to wait so long for the plot to progress gets annoying after awhile. It's weird how P3 (though it did try to limit you with "Tired" and "Sick" status), P4 and P5 incentivize completing a dungeon in one day but, you can't do the same for an SLink. Making it 75% visual novel and 25% dungeon crawling. Not helped by having to waste time grinding social stats that do nothing but gate off SLinks. Yakuza: Like a Dragon at least has social stats benefit the main character, Ichiban Kasuga, in combat. I feel like SLinks were done better in games like The Caligula Effect 1 & 2. Those games do have the downside of blocking off SLink ranks until you're in certain chapters, but I feel the upsides outweigh that. Like having to use the party member in combat which incentivizes trying out new members. No calendar system means you can choose to continue the plot whenever you want. The SLink ranks can have characters reflect on moments from the main plot instead of keeping it entirely separate. A feature that I also like is that you have to pay attention to what you say otherwise you could break the SLink (I know reversing/breaking was disliked in P3 by many).
I also want to add that I feel like Devil Survivor 1 & 2 did the mechanic better. Having the games be 7 Days meant that the story was still moving along despite the down time. You didn't need social stats to progress with the characters. Your choices also gave you alternate scenarios which added more replay value.
@@Gordoniankid I prefer Sakura Wars 2 -5 ,,Clock System'' (one interaction cost 5 minutes of 1 hour free time, which means you have ,,fast'' 12 interactions beetwen main story progression (u can also skip this completely, going MC to his room), for me this is ideal system, because not only dont ruins story pacing, but also dont force player to read ,,scipted'' event do you not want watch (like example: boring and repetive studying in classrom). Clock System in those games have only ONE DAY or TWO DAYS to spend free time, which help player with focusing on main story. And most important: NO LOADING SCREENS, because events are in one day !!! And this thing is from 20-25 years old Saturn / Dreamcast games. Devil Survivor is also great example of good Time Managment System.
I feel like for persona 5 it is a good point for the most part that all of the things from confidants are just benefits, except for the star confidant, those aren't benefits those are things that should have just been available to the player. Like switching your party members in the middle of a battle, I don't know that's been an JRPGs since 1992
You summed up my whole view on p3's social link and writing so well and waaaay quicker then I ever could. I still prefer 3 way of handling characterization and trying persona evolution to the main plot but I think it's also fits 3 tones better in comparison to 4/5.
With how the modern Persona games are made and set up, social links are absolutely necessary. Keep in mind I have personally played the whole series minus P3, so I am well aware that P1, P2:IS and P2:EP all work without Social Links however those games are setup as wildly different games. If you took out Social Links, then you really wouldn't have a need for the calendar/date system and without that then the entire structure of the game would shift to be more like SMT which I see if a detrimental since it would really strip away what makes the Persona series and SMT series different.
My problem with social links is that it severely restricts characters because of how they can be done at any time - this means that none of the social link development can be present in the story unless it's an auto link. It also screws over side characters as many interesting side characters lack social links because they have to re appear in the story without development - Chidori, Hanako, Ikutsuki. And the social link characters end up disappearing from the story entirely so they don't have to acknowledge the social link - Tae, Ohya, Iwai or the game just acts like you never did the link like Kawakami. The social links ultimately come at a cost to the overall story and hamper development.
Another series that I love that does something similar is Fire Emblem with their supports. Its setup differently, in that characters have them with people other then the main character. Because of this each character has multiple different stories to show off their personality and grow. The different stories help as you can see many different sides of characters, but due to so many of these being made, they are a lot shorter than social links. Games tend to have a max of 3-4 support conversations till they reach max. Its really interesting seeing how both of these series handle it and seeing the highs and lows of both systems.
@@quillion3rdoption Fire Emblem took inspirations from Persona -> Persona took inspirations from Sakura Wars -> Sakura Wars and Langrisser from Sega Saturn popularized genre Social SIm mixed with gameplay (in Japan)
My main issue is how a main party members link doesnt sync with their main story progression. I wish they gave the party a link like in P3 and reserved social links to all the extras.
I for one love the bonuses in confidants in Persona 5, never played Persona 3 but I have played 4. Honestly, I didn’t like the social links in P4, for one, every time it ranked up a bright light flashes the screen and I go blind for a second and secondly it’s hard to find social links without a guide. I really wanted to do Kanji’s social link and Adachi’s but I always had trouble finding them, and then you have hidden dialogue that you can’t click unless you’re in NG+, that’s either hit or miss. I didn’t care for much of the characters in P4, so aside from that one trophy you getting for maxing out everyone I felt no need to do their social links. In Persona 5 where pretty much all the confidants had a mementos requests felt more in theme with the game, where the characters were pretty much being screwed over by someone and feel as though there’s nothing they could do about it until the phantom thieves come along and help them out. Yoshida’s was one of my favorites and the fact that he didn’t need you to go to mementos and fixed his own problem was nice, I honestly disliked Makoto’s the most, being dragged around and stalking some girl was just meh to me. Maybe the social links/confidants should be more just hanging out with them and learning more about them while the character development proceeds with the story.
No, they are a waste of time. If you want to have character development, incorporate it in the main story, or at least just have them not give you dialogue options (depending on which ones you choose your social link might increase at a slower or faster rate, which is horrible with personas callendar system, it results in either saving and reloading or using a guide if you want to max all of them)
@@renren47618 Being unique isn't always a good thing, especially when you're sacrificing actual character development. 3 handles it well but in 4 and 5 characters are barely relevant after their arc. Also it's actually ridiculous to even imply that dating sim mechanics is what makes Persona unique. Especially because there are other games that have it. And the games were still pretty popular before the mechanics were even introduced.
@@FentyMixx the fact that you summarized the social links as dating sim when things like Akinari Social Link exist or Dojima Also, indeed P4 and 5 had this problem but it's something that can be solved and it's not the mechanic's fault but Atlus's fault
While I do enjoy social links and view Nanako's and Dojima's SLs as some of my favorite stories in vidya, the system has inherent flaws. One of comes to mind is exclusive to P3 in that the lack of male SLs makes it seem that Makoto does not care at all about spending time with his team. However, the more obvious is the way that SLs just... end. When you reach rank ten with a character, the protagonist has established a truly unbreakable bond with that character, having learned and assisted the character in his struggles. This is directly told to you through the Velvet Room attendant. When the character thanks the protagonist for the last time, the protag heads off with no reason to ever speak to that character again. There is very much a narrative-gameplay disconnect when it comes to SLs. Most characters are not even available to hang out with when their SLs are completed, with the exceptions being club characters (I think), "special" characters like Chihaya, and your romantic partner in the game. Even then, the former is just for increasing your social stats and the latter brings no benefit, something that the game will even directly tell you in P4. Yes, I did walk Yukiko home some afternoons due to my lack of interest in maxing everything, but those afternoons were mechanically wasted. On a lesser note, there is the issue with how persona awakenings and character arcs are now tied to SL completion. I do enjoy the vast majority of party member SLs in P4 and P5, but few of them felt as impactful as the awakenings in P3. While this is not a major issue and really a matter of taste, party members going through separate arcs in the story and SLs is a more apparent issue, in my eyes. It was not as bad in P4 as it was in P5, but seeing characters accept deaths or aspects of themselves in the SLs and then not acknowledge it in the story was slightly irritating. P5 was worse, especially with the almost separate development of Ryuji in his confidant and story, but I will admit that it was never bad enough to make me dislike the system. Overall, I do believe that the SL system should stay despite needing large amounts of rework, but I am at a loss at how to incorporate fixes while still balancing the game play and narrative of the games.
Bit weird how you rag on P3 for letting you date Ken but ignores P5 letting you date every older women that breathes. I don't mind the option cause I always romance Kawakami every playthrough but just wanted to point out the inconsistency.
I personally tend to lean towards not liking Social Links as a whole. Mainly because I don’t play Persona for the VN aspects, but I understand a lot of people don’t feel the same as I do. I don’t necessarily despise them, but if I had to choose having them or not, I would probably choose the latter. I like how they’ve been implemented into the gameplay, by powering up fused Personas of specific Arcanas and giving further bonuses for other gameplay aspects when maxed out in P5. I personally dislike the fact that the main plot sometimes takes a back seat to the social elements and the fact that they, along with the whole “Wild Card” shtick, seem to make party members seem much less important than they should be and practically focuses all the attention to the protagonist. Tl;dr: I personally have gripes with the system, but I understand it’s pretty much what made Persona popular and gave it it’s own identity.
I would say no. While they can be a nice novelty, these days they have become nothing more than a crutch for the writing not having to include character development into the actual story. The way it is done also forces the characters to basically become static in order for them to fit regardless of where in the narrative you are. Also, the Persona evolutions should really be story tied, no S-Link tied given how important those events are meant to be. Also, another issue I have with modern S-links is the lack of consequence. It is like you can do whatever you want and it will always progress to the same conclusion. It would be best if they had multiple endings depending on your actions.
I feel like the social links are required to demonstrate the bonds that the protagonist makes over the year which rips your heart out when you have to leave this world. Also I find it somewhat poignant that you need to seek out your friend's stories/development. It shows that learning about others takes work on your part. Your team members are there for you no matter what but to truly understand them, you need to spend time with them individually
Maybe not necessary, but Social Links have become a part of what makes Persona stand out from other RPGs. It has to stick around for that reason alone. What doesn't need to stick around is stuff like P5R requiring you have certain SLs completed to play the new content added in that expansion. Not only do you not know that initially and could easily miss them, but on the romance side of things, I don't like how you're able to choose who you can start a relationship with... but forcing you to hang with Kasumi sorta forces her as Joker's main love interest. It somewhat invalidates your choices as the player. With the exception of an auto-progressing SL (ideally only 1 of them), SLs should be optional things you can do to get to know the characters and gain more power.
@@Hazewhite Looked it up. Wiki does say only Maruki is needed for 3rd Semester. Could've sworn Akechi and Kasumi were needed too given that they're very important in that new story.
They definitely need to rework the party-member links if they're going to stick around. Having important character development locked behind optional scenes is so stupid and it's been influencing other RPG series in a negative way. If a character is going to be a main party-member they need to actually develop over the course of the main story. There are plenty of other ways they can still keep party-member links without gutting the main story. It is not necessary.
Liking the video so far, but I did want to say that just because you played P4 for the first time in your early college years doesn't mean you don't have nostalgia for it. Just not *childhood* nostalgia. You can be nostalgic about anything that reminds you of a certain time in your life.
Absolutely. It sets it apart from other JRPGS like Final Fantasy. It may not effect a main plot but it's like removing all the side activities in Yakuza games.
One thing I like about the social link system is in order for you to sometimes get that character's story cutscnes and rank up you may have to spend a day just hanging out. It along with the opt in nature is really immersive. My favorite game in the series despite it's rough edges is Persona 3. Yukari and Ken (though for other reasons than his messed up social link for a female MC) maybe infamous but unlike some people I find them to be some the best characters in the whole series. Though it does probably help that I had Makoto date Yukari so her behavior in the Answer made more sense to me but I digress.
I never thought of that, but yeah/ Not every interaction with people is gonna be super eventful, and just passing time with someone is as important as anything else
I feel like the main character social links should be tied into the main progression a bit more. Like, for example, if you make it that you can only unlock ranks 1-3 after the first dungeon, then the second dungeon unlocks rank 4-5, and so on and so on. If this is properly adjusted on a character-by-character basis, and if the game makes it extremely clear to players that the social link won't progress any further at that specific point, it could work wonders to synergize the individual character development and the main plot progression.
Socials are funny in the series, on one hand they can lend characters outside of the core cast some good to great stories, personals fav are Akinari in 3, Adachi, and Kawakami. But they can also feel a bit restrictive imo, 5’s main cast felt like different people in their links at times, and, while totally subjective, I preferred 3’s story based awakenings over 4 and 5’s. I do think they help give the series it’s identity, but like anything there are some inherent drawbacks to it.
Great video as always! As a washed up boomer p3 fan I thought I’d offer my take on it’s systems. Yeah no guy social links is just an L. No two way around that. That being said I don’t think the system was original designed for someone trying to max every link in one playthrough. Time being fleeting is a big theme of this game in particular so I think the stress of the jealousy systems and the reverse social link stuff is really cool. Forces you to decide what’s valuable in your limited time in this world. Ties in nicely with that death theme
I will just paraphrase someone else 'If character development is contained in optional, easy to miss side activities, then they should not exists'. In modern personas, social links exist mostly to make you live your power fantasy, a person everyone must depend on, without who they can't do shit by themselves (if you never open the door for Yusuke he will be unable to become a better artist for life etc.). Combine it with a fact, that there is a visible line between development in social links and main story and you get straight bullshit. In other words, if they are to exist, atlus need to either find better writers, or go nuts with it like mass effect series. I don't see them doing either.
@@johnathonturner2279 i enjoyed them too. But I didn't do all if them. And characters who I didn't were not developed, like at all. It's a clear flaw, that should be done better
If you know the amazing games Trails of Cold Steel, I can't help but think that the bonding system there is included only because of how iconic the Social Links systems are in Persona history
i rly feel like the modern personas have written themselves into a corner with main cast slinks. the side stories they tell are by far better than what we had in p1-2, but the main group suffers for having development locked behind optional content that by its nature cant impact the status quo too much. imo having the main character dev be tied into the main story and having slinks all be truly optional content would be the ideal balance, but i cant see that happening if only bc of the waifu players wanting to keep up the dating sim vibes. good stuff as always tony, always get me thinking about stuff way too hard. 👍
However they plan to do it, I really think the whole “your actions in the story and character interaction buffs your performance in combat” mechanic that persona popularized needs to be kept in some way. It’s SO awesome of a system. Basically giving you a tangible reason to interact with the story. More games need this is some form. It would be really cool. Now, exactly HOW they go about it is up to interpretation.
Honestly I never like the lovers arcana in each of the 3 games, I never liked yukari, rise was manipulated back into being an idol, and Ann just laughed when she found out her rival was breaking the law and ruining people's jobs, and calling her a "Saturday villian" and you know, not a terrible person
@@Tony4You I will admit with yukari its just a me thing but you don't see how it's manipulative with rise? I'm pretty positive rise says that her manager was never so nice to her, as in giving her her own fans letters. Smells to me like he'd trying to get her back on how sad they all were. Which is playing with her heart and is not cool. Like the letters could have made her go but the fact that the manager was never this kind to her was mmmmm
i have never heard of social links in persona 3 "regressing a rank". i only ever experienced them reversing (the tarot card turns into the "reverse position") which essentially just stops you from being able to rank them up until you reconcile with them (which is pretty easy). if you say the wrong thing while trying to reconcile with them a social link can become "broken" and you will have to talk to them 3(?) times to get back on track. while persona 3's jealousy mechanic is far too punishing, i believe the player *should* face some consequence for being a bad friend and would honestly like to see reverse social links to come back without the jealousy mechanic. also i don't think second persona forms for party members shouldn't be locked behind their social link. it should be part of the story like 3, while their 3rd form remains locked behind an event you can only do after maxing the link.
Yeah it makes sense in theory, but with the added forced relationships with female links and restrictive stat requirements it becomes rough. I still love the game though
@@Tony4You oh i agree. don't bring back forced relationships or anything like that. i just wanna see megaten fans get punished because they're socially inept and saying something mean/stupid. lol.
I think Megaten series has always had sort of side characters or at least info you can optionally interpret or look up yourself. Even in first Shin Megami Tensei in certain regards. Where you can talk to certain people or see certain events that might give info as to what's going on in the background or contradict a character's statement to make them seem questionable. Social links, *in-theory* should be sort of enhanced version of this, but considering this is directly tied into gameplay in certain ways, the main story suffers from lacking in-character development for the main cast, it being forced into a management game with a tight schedule and sometimes the social links not being exactly good, I don't think it's a formula you can keep fresh or engaging in a long run throughout franchise. Because it also limits how other characters would interact with other characters, or be given a chance for side characters to be developed as well (Because social links are isolated usually from each other). It also doesn't help that so much importance is placed on the main character, who doesn't exactly have a set personality. Now this has always been the case with alot of Megaten protags, with exception of Persona 2 in certain regards, but they're usually trying to tell a story of an average person going against the odds in certain regard, and their party members are usually of similar strength. However the whole 'Wild Card'-thing I think completely fucks this whole thing up and it makes other characters entirely depend on the main character. Other characters can't interact with the Velvet Room, your character has all the Personas and they get just 1, with maybe some awakened versions added on-top. What I'm implying here, is that it doesn't feel natural for those to be 'social links', ironically enough. People joke about the whole 'power through friendship or co-operation', but you can beat the games mostly regardless with also great power already placed on the protagonist himself, story implies this to be otherwise, but through gameplay and execution, it doesn't. In my opinion, Social Links give way too many downs with the formula that Persona is using, it may be good in-terms of attracting people, but it's not good for the overall long-term health of the franchise in it's story and gameplay. Either remove the system entirely and incorporate a good story in which characters develop, or develop a new system that enhances this, but doesn't become such a main feature.
P3’s Fool arcana also unlocked more tactics for the party’s in combat actions, showing how their ability to fight together grows and changes as well as the protagonist’s ability to lead.
I like social links, my problem is the arbitrary requirements to unlock them, why do we have to upgrade social stats & are limited to having social links only happen on certain days of the week
I couldn't manage to max some important social links in my first playthrough of Persona 4. Since I was always spending time with main party members in the main story, I was more curious about other characters like Kou, Eri and Yumi. So when I maxed them there wasn't enough time to max some party members. Also I couldn't max Nanako social link because of expression requirement. When I finally had enough expression, she was in hospital and there wasn't enough time left to max her social link.
Happened to me in P5 as well. I came in from p3 thinking SL were just complimentary, so I prioritized the non-Party SLs so i could explore as many of the characters as possible. I was really disappointed when I got to Morgana Rank 10 and it dawned on me that all ultimate personas were tied to the SLs
I'd like to see your Social Links affect certan aspects of the plot, even if it's only changing a few lines of dialogue. Fire Emblem Three Houses proves this is possible; for example, in one story scene, Dorothea isn't as cold to Ferdinand if they have a B support(the maximum they can have at the time).
Can we have a social link in a future Persona game where it’s a reversed Jester/Hunter situation from Golden with the person in question being a former enemy of yours before defecting from the villains or being betrayed by their former colleagues and being rescued by the heroes? It’d be interesting to form a bond with someone who previously was hostile towards you and getting to know them better outside of the main plot. Heck, it’d be a way to have a Persona user bearing the Death arcana since we haven’t had one since Persona 1. SLs with the villains are the most interesting ones narratively since you get to know your foes up close and interacting with them outside of their villainous roles.
I think they are 100% needed. I think that the problem is that people in the persona community and the rpg community I'm general have a way of looking at games that only applies to them and how they enjoy games which is perfectly fine. But for a lot of pepole, mys self included, the worst part of rpgs are the hours and hours of mindless grinding. The social sim aspect dose an excellent job of breaking up this monoutmy and through the fusion boosts and skills you unlock from them it links perfectly to the main game play. At the same many of them do a great job of further developing the characters. They allow the player to tackle the game t their own pace. Imo he game would be significantly worse without them.
I think they should be balanced as well. I loved how p1, and p2 handled its characters within the actual story and how well written they were already, but I also like the downside of getting to explore and meet new characters and gain abilities but I feel with a bit more tweaking it could be perfected even further.
Of course it's all opinion, but I honestly have a complete 180 from you on 3 and 4. 4 felt annoying at times, like I NEED to do them at times if I wanted the bonuses and to understand these characters. 3 I felt like I knew these characters from the story, and the Links were just extra I can choose to like or not like I do also really like 3's characters just in general more, so I'm sure that helps.
As much as i love the social link system I dont think it would work in the first 3 games considering that their stories essentially take place over a couple of days or a week at best so there isnt much time to interact with any side characters for a long time
I’ve always liked that characters would feel out of character is you didn’t do their social link, it makes them feel like they’re going through their character arc without you being there.
While I do somewhat enjoy the social link system, I just feel that Atlus doesn't know what to do with it anymore, with P5 especially suffering the most IMO
Love social links and think they are necessary and iconic to persona since it’s a very character heavy series, but for the main cast, the social links should be more balanced for how much character development is in them. I feel like the main cast’s most important plot lines should be developed in the main story rather than used for social links. I feel like Persona 6 will improve on that aspect.
I kinda feel mixed on the social links. Persona 4: It made me fall in love with Yukiko and made me like and understand Rise more. Like if Rise wasn't so obsessed with You she would have been so perfect. Persona 5: The social Link characters and main story characters feel so different. Like Yuki feels like his 180 by himself is undeserved especially since after Kamoshidas arc he feels more like just the PT cheerleader. Even if you finish Kawakamis social link she still has a depressed and annoyed look. And like you said Makoto just slapped that girl.
P3 did it best. The main cast had their own development in the story and then had some side development in their social links and it worked perfectly. In Persona 4 and 5 characters feel like they don't have any development or even importance at all in the main story except for very few scenes.
honestly in regards of the Social Links between 3, 4, and 5, i think 5 felt the more...unnecessary. not because they're overall bad, quite the opposite, a lot of the characters and their stories in 5 are indeed interesting to delve into, but rather just how much is put into 5. the life sim aspects, social stats, and story & RPG elements in this all felt like it just crammed so much content in relatively not enough time, even in a New Game Plus. especially since every single arcana gets brought up, and for some they essentially make it feel like doing it is mandatory, not by choice due to how much it'll tell you to touch back on specific characters. i kinda wished that there'd be more of a balance to it all so it didn't make me feel stressed trying to do them. Royal....doesn't fix this to much of a degree, instead adding more content and 3 new social links. while some aspects got rearranged and changed from the original iteration, adding 3 more, and the game saying "level them up before the new deadline for the new story" personally i just thought it felt more stressful while playing. and personally, while i will admit character wise, the social links in 3 were not the best, conceptually and story wise, a number of social links were really well done. i honestly enjoyed seeing certain characters develop and grow on their own as the story progressed, like Junpei with Chidori, or Akihiko & Ken with Shinjiro. i thought it made those characters feel more fleshed out. while 4 & 5 focused more on the protagonist being the character that gives way to the development between other social links, i do think it makes it feel like without them, the other characters can't grow or change (even tho some characters in 4 & 5 can just develop regardless through story, my point still stands) also in Golden & Royal, i'm personally not one for characters like Marie/Yoshizawa being pushed more towards the canon love interest, couse the player should have that choice without feeling like it's the wrong one. unless we're talking about Ken. Social Links are not a bad idea for the series, not in any means, but personally i feel if there were more characters that could develop on their own with the story and less that needed the player regardless, we could probably have some really interesting stories and character developments that occur. less quantity and more quality essentially.
What really needs a change is not social links but the calendar system. It just kills the pacing of the game. Get through a objective in one go then wait for something to happen in two weeks is pretty bad pacing.
Shu is highly relatable for most of asian kids who grew up with similar stressful environment xD But I do wish they wrote him better and in a more likeable manner.
Just speaking personally, I'm only becoming more and more disinterested in the series the more it starts leaning on the social sim aspects. My first MegaTen game was Persona 3 FES and what really made me gravitate towards it wasn't the calendar system or the dating - it was the great atmosphere, fun combat and just how well-developed everyone in SEES was. Slinks were nice and did a nice job expanding on the story's main theme but for me, they were secondary to the main plot and dungeon crawling. Which is why I didn't vibe with P4 or P5 nearly as much as I did with P3, where, unlike with P3, where Slinks were a major mechanic but not a centralising one, Slinks are _everything._ You need to do Slinks to power up your party members, you need to do Slinks to pay smaller healing fees, you need to do Slinks to switch characters in battle, you need to do Slinks to have more time with other actions in the overworld etc. You're always penalised for choosing an Slink that's considered not as important instead of the ones that give you the big benefits and it makes the planning process so much less fun. Arcana bonuses and endgame demons were already good enough incentives to plan out your time well, this just feels overdone. That and I also agree with everyone about how boring Slinks are in P4 and P5 from the writing perspective. Locking development to optional story paths that don't affect the main story in any tangential way sucks and feels like a crutch for writing in the arcs for the characters without committing to them. It's why I don't really care about anyone in P4 other than Dojima who is well-realised and dynamic in-story and whose Slink does a great job expanding on his struggles as a single father. Everyone else though? I mean they may be charming but that charm quickly wears off when you go back to the main story and Rise is still hitting hard on Yu and everyone continues to bully Yosuke the same way they did before they supposedly grew as people in their Slinks. P3 got around that by simply... developing the main cast throughout the story and locking the links until after the major character moments. That way, they felt more complimentary to their arcs rather than supplementary. Aeon is also one of my favourite Slink because it feels like a natural conclusion to Aigis' story in the Journey and does a great job fleshing out her Pinocchio arc further. Not to mention, and this is also a bit of an unpopular opinion, but in hindsight, I'm glad SEES guys didn't get any slinks because that meant the world could be populated with more oddball people Makoto would meet on his Fool's journey. P4 and P5, once again, the game heavily wants you to focus on the main party links at all times and that's also a problem because they're generally the more standout characters, partly by their PM status but also because... other NPCs just feel so... plain. Idk it's generally hard for me to remember their links because they're kinda just normal people who require Yu/Ren to fix their problems. Plus P5 (and also P3P) have some... yikesy dating options. Oh and the calendar system leads to a very uneven pacing - the month starts, you scale the dungeon on the first day or the first two days because that's most optimal and then you're left with hours of doing nothing but social sim stuff until you reach the next story beat. At least in P3, the Tartarus doesn't interfere with too many of your activities so you're encouraged to be more free-form about your planning and full moon bosses were a nice conclusion to the month. I also see a lot of ppl claiming that Slinks are what makes Persona stand out but... do they? At this point, pretty much every jRPG under the sun has dabbled in some form of a social sim system like Slinks. Frankly, it's harder to find one that _didn't._ And in all honesty, even if it is unique to the series, I think at this point, I'd rather it were left behind. For one thing, I'm more into dungeon crawling than life sim parts, as stated before (my favourite MegaTen games are the DDS duology - story-heavy dungeon crawlers but still dungeon crawlers), so personal bias. But also, I unironically think they are also limiting a certain part of the series' appeal - in that they're always written around the assumption the MC is a straight (because Hashino games have no backbone) guy and trying to divert from that by writing a female route would by itself be a massive undertaking, as proven by the FemC route in P3P, which diverts in multiple ways, both minor and major, from the MamC route, in spite being the same exact story at its core. And since both P4 and P5 are leaning very heavily in the escapism aspect, it only serves to alienate the audience that doesn't quite vibe with the male-centric viewpoint and maybe wants to date the guys (because, again, Hashino games have no backbone) or have their struggles as girls in the modern society acknowledged as well. So uh tl;dr P4 and P5 Social Links are kind of a mess.
I feel like giving a numerical ranking to social links limits the story potential. As it makes the pacing of each link really really predictable. I mean yes its an RPG. But on principle, the act of ranking human interaction just comes off as somebody who doesn't understand how human interaction works. And as such, creates very jank stories about human bonds. When I see moments about social links. I just keep thinking about how I grinded my stats to reach the next rank of the social link. Than any of the story moments involved with that particular link. because functionally they are kinda meaningless. They just exist to give you access to bigger number.
At first I thought the ken social link was like innocent love like kids don't know much about relationships and are immature maybe I should play it again and complete it to see
I personally really like the social link/confidant system of the persona series. I just wish p5 did a better job with their confidants, especially for the main party members. I won't go into too much detail but the things that really stand out is how Ryuji becomes a more mature person at the end of his confidant route, understanding that not every problem can be solved by shouting or beating it up, and yet an incidence like the completely pointless Ryuji vs Morgana thing happens. My friends and I joke that a completely different team wrote the confidant stories and the main story and they had little communication with each other
I beg to differ in shu, as someone with very strict parents and someone who was crushed by the expectations of my mother feeling that I was more living to fulfill those expectations than living for myself, I think he's pretty relatable and I liked being the friend I wish I had to someone who's in a position similar to mine
I honestly think they should've went the complete other way and make it so party members don't get social links at all and all of them are side characters, barring the few story related links like fool and judgement and death and whatever else the game in particular demands. That would make it so that the writers have to develop all the main characters parallel to the plot without straying from the path and going to a side lane for no reason. As for romance, that could easily be done through the main story itself as well
No. The problem is the dissonance between the world-endy backdrop "main story" being paused to chat with social links and work part time. It's filler designed as the main part of the game.
![[FULL EP.73] เปิดบ้าน 70 ล้าน "แป้ง Zbing" ยกมาทั้งญี่ปุ่น l เคหสถานบานปลาย l One Playground](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YBnJhTt07Pg/mqdefault.jpg)
Join the discord: discord.gg/fTpQETmznX
Feel free to leave any thoughts or suggestions for future videos!
I'm alright with side character social links, but I feel like the main party's social links present an interesting writing problem; the main plot can never reflect the character development from the social links because they have to write around the possibility that the player could consider never doing the social links, meaning some characters will feel out of character during key story beats depending on if you have done the link or not
Yeah I can definitely see the writing constraints. When viewed overall it is great, but it could be so much better with a bit more variance on even some dialogue in the main story
Maybe they lock some social links levels with the main story progression
Sounds like a good way to introduce a bad ending.
"You haven't had any social interaction, you're not powerful enough for the final boss." or something else.
@@invertebrado they need to do it like persona 3, where they still have social links, but it doesn't effect their main character progression
@@harrietr.5073 honestly that would be really cool to see, alongside some scenes that change depending on how many social links you've at least started
Changing plot and events depending on your social link levels definitely would be a great addition to the game
Hard agree
@@Tony4You wasn't Shinji like that in Portable?
@@aorekose4262 If you wanna fuck him as Femc, yes.
It could be the future.
It would but that would require the writing to also be a lot more complex.
@@aorekose4262 yeah but the change is insignificant. From dead only changed to hospitalized
Because the male party members from P3 didn’t originally have Social links that meant that they had their own complete story arcs in the main campaign, so when social links were added later, they focused on aspects of their character which we knew a bit of but simply weren’t given too much attention, to me this is my ideal writing style for party member social links, letting them have an overarching narrative in the main game but elaborating and exploring them a bit deeper in the social links
Exactly! Just like the female party members in FES. You already get a full view of the characters during the story as an integral part of their characters, but their social links build upon other sides of their character. Like Yukari during the story fleshing out how she is affected by her relationship with and loss of her father, but her social link focusing on how her relationship with her mother is affected by it. And Mitsuru during the story focusing on her responsibilities as heir to the Kirijo group and grappling with the sins of her father despite her love for him, while her social link focuses on how her everyday life and outlook on the world is shaped by her upbringing and different set of priorities. They have enough development during the story that you can understand and adore them, but the social link is also there to add to the parts of who they are that can't be expressed during the story. And I absolutely believe that Persona Evolution should be tied to story and not social links. Arcanas Ultimate Personas are a good enough reward for completion in their own right.
While the series doesn't explicitly "need" social links, I believe that they've become a core part of the franchise's appeal at this point and removing them would not only greatly alienate the player base, but it would also take away from one of the overarching ideas introduced in the Hashino era games. That being the effects strong bonds can have on individuals.
While every game in the modern trilogy has very distinct core themes, all of them push the message that accepting new people into our lives can change our perspective for the better. Persona 4 is the most blatant example of this since it applies to both the main party members as well as the game's major antagonist. Adachi was someone who lacked any sort of meaningful connection in his life and ended up growing resentful toward his situation because he thought he deserved better. This isolation, combined with his superiority complex, eventually lead him to develop a nihilistic view of the world itself.
In contrast, the members of the investigation team are able to change themselves for the better because they learn to open up to other people. The resolution to the party member's stories is tied to their social links to help enforce this idea. The player needs to go out of their way to support their friends in their time of need so that they can fully move past their personal issues. If social links were removed and all of this content was instead presented in the main story, I think it would lessen the impact of the game's message for a few reasons. Not only would there be inherently less time dedicated to those characters' arcs for the sake of keeping the game's pace smooth but by removing the player agency, the conclusions that the characters come to wouldn't feel nearly as impactful. I can't imagine a version of Persona 4 without social links because they're integral to the way that game handles its core message and I believe that removing them for the series would do far more harm than good at this point.
More and more reasons Persona 4 is one of the best games ever made
i ain't reading all that
i"m happy for u tho
or sorry that happened
@@ThatBoyAqua Thanks bro
@@ThatBoyAqua if you are not going to read it dont reply ffs
@@cesarcastillo7129 marcelo
I really do enjoy the social link/confidant system as I like how each story is like a 'mini-arc' reflecting some of the core traits and problems within that respective arcana. Especially with the confidant system, I like how there's a intrinsic gameplay buff to doing them outside the usual bonus EXP/final persona unlock, some of which can be pretty underwhelming once you finally get them.
Having said that, I would like the party member social links to be remembered. If I romance someone, it would be nice for that to mentioned and brought up in the plot from time to time. It shouldn't be the hardest to integrate, just have a scene play out in say, two or three different ways depending on if you're at a particular rank with someone relevant to it. And in general, balance out some of the development so your party members still get some growth as a part of the plot; I couldn't tell you how Ryuji grew as a character if you never did his confidant, for example. I'm also mixed on forced story progression links. There's no good reason why Morgana's persona needs to be at the first tier until Christmas Eve.
And lastly, balance out the rewards a bit. The Devil confidant in P5 is really difficult to justify outside of completionism. I guess overall that sounds like a lot of problems, but I do really like the system, it just needs refining.
100% agree that social links should have more of an effect on the story. Even if it is just some lines of dialogue changing
The issue with writing plot scenes depending on SLs is that they have to account for not only all Social Links (or alteasy the party member SLs), but also for you potentially dating multiple girls
There's also the fact that they have to keep it purposefully vague so when a spin-off inevitably comes out it won't feel too awkward when the characters don't bring up whatever romance you pursued in the original
The interesting writing problem I've encountered through P3-P5 is the inconsistency with how the SLs end with your party members specifically; this applies to the male members as well.
With how much you advanced through their SLs and seeing the bond you've made with them, once you move on with the story, the inconsistency starts to show with how they treat you in comparison to their respective SLs. I've maxed out the entire Investigation Team in P4 for instance but when I continue on the main story, the difference the interactions between them and the MC starts to show.
I'd like to see P6 putting on more emphasis to how SLs work and make it a lot more natural and seamless with the main story to the point that it adapts to your current SL level and gives out different lines and events based on your current SL level.
It's more of a nitpick for me as I don't personally care. Persona has many amazing SLs and so this is more of a very incremental thing I just pointed it out.
yeah, this is the kind of game that would go a very long way if it had that insane level of detail you see in something like the witcher 3, in which you get entirely new lines of dialogue depending on the order you talk to different npcs
That intro was a flashbang if I’ve ever seen one
The P5 formula is why I think Mishima is my favorite honestly. He has to change and grow on his own and in doing so takes accountability by his own merit. Almost feels like an integral part of the game to me, always liked his arc.
And that's why that scene with him and Sojiro at the end works so well, if someone was gonna change the tide, it had to be him
I think a bigger problem you overlooked with both P4 and P5 style party member social links is the fact that the character development that happens to the main characters is exclusive to the social links themselves. In pretty much every case, the characters change and grow for the better, only to go back to being undeveloped in any main story scenes, because they can't assume you've done their social links and seen them change. This is a huge problem that doesn't really have a solution, aside from doing it how it was done in P3, i.e. keeping character development outside of social links(well, except for the ladies, I suppose).
Imagine if everything to do with Ken and Akihiko was locked behind doing their links, and they just kept acting like they hated each other and didn't grow from everything they went through together in the story. It would be pretty awful, and is something I wouldn't be able to overlook. Characters like Kanji, Yosuke, Naoto, Ryuji, Yusuke, Futaba, they all suffer from having to write them as if the development never happened outside of the link itself. Hell, if you don't progress Ann's link, you don't get to see what happens with Shiho. This is the main problem I have with how P4 and P5 handled social links, specifically for the main party members.
I agree actually yeah. I never thought of how much progress the male party goes through in P3 and the potential P4 and P5 had.
Even the female cast in P3 grow without the social links. Exploring things like Mitsuru’s past are a required part of the story of the game.
I don't see how Ken and Akihiko's stories would even fit in the social links actually, their whole arc has absolutely nothing to do with the Protagonist.
Personally, I’m fine with how they’re done now. They’re optional in the first place and aren’t vital. The cast of 4 and 5(Yes even Haru) are still meaningful and developed 3-dimensional characters that feel real even without social link development.
@@digimonlover1632 yeah it's fine, Yukiko's character arc about inheriting the Inn has nothing to do with the main story (the murder mystery) of P4 and it's more of her personal issue. Same goes for Rise accepting her role of being a pop idol, once again it's just her own personal issue.
Fun fact: Persona Dating Sim / Social Links / Time Managment aspects was inspirited by Sakura Wars games. In Sakura Wars games you also build relationships with main characters (and some side characters in later games) in similar way like in later Persona Social Links, but big diffirence in Sakura Wars games is - each decision in Visual Novel segments not only can affect possitively but also negatively on your girls in combat section (by boosting or decreasing her stats in battle, something like temporary buffs or debuffs), not only possitively like in Persona games. And Sakura Wars games had ,,Clock System'' (each interaction with characters cost 5 minutes from 1 hour free time between main story events), Persona have ,,Calendar System''. I prefer Clock System from Sakura Wars 2-5 games because dont affect negatively on story pacing (no loadings and fillers), when Calendar System is sometimes annoying (tones of loadings screens) and negatively affect on story pacing (fillers). If you play So Long My Love on PS2 (game from 2005) u can see a lot similarites between this game and Persona 4.
Yeah Sakura Wars is a better series for this because it was built in from the jump and much more heavily intended to be THE focus of the series, rather than the half and half balance Hashino's Persona tries to play. In presentation and structure, all main Sakura Wars games are designed to feel like you're playing a romantic comedy mecha series with the action serving as episode climaxes. Persona first and foremost is an RPG and so it can't ever let the SoL sim half go ham and become the priority, else they lose the actual roots of Persona
@@MagillanicaLouM After playing Sakura Wars 3 (maxing all routes) on my Dreamcast i dont know why, but I cant just go back to Perosna 3-5. Now i see how bad Social Elements are implfied in those games, especially how bad is Calendar System who ruins only story pacing. As you mentioned Persona 3-5 it really feels like they added half baked Dating Sim to generic highschool JRPG, when series from origins (Persona 1-2) never was build arround romance aspects. If you add Dating Sim to (for example) Valkyria Chronicles, you fast discover that something is wrong with game. When people play Persona 3-5 ONLY for Social Links why just dont play regular Dating Sim or hybrid games which did better job whith romance aspect.
@@nr2676 yeah the calendar is the biggest issue for Persona.
@@MagillanicaLouM i love the calendar system
@@chillracks1311 I respect it thematically in 3 but afterwards its like it's kept in just to have it. And it gets annoying for me when it clashes it with itself, during those parts in the games where it just takes your control of it away for a bit as some story event eats away a couple weeks. And just the "limited time in a day" thing in general is done better elsewhere imo.
I like how P3 did social links mechanically. Persona's main themes are ideas of the self and the bonds you make with others. The relationship decay is a good idea, although could be better handled. Imagine ghosting someone that poured their heart out to you for three months.
I liked how reversals were more common in 3. Relationships aren't just a easy ride. Sometimes you screw up and make people upset. Persona is not too hard a game but, making the time management more of a challenge is a good thing imo. Reminds me of the bomb system in Tokimeki Memorial.
I also liked how characters weren't dependent on the player's action to develop. P3 having character's arcs more tied to the plot than thrown in a social link makes them feel more important and proactive to the story taking place. It felt like 4 and to a less extent 5 had these characters not develop as the plot progress to put in a social link that you could miss completing.
I just really like P3 okay.
The reverse social link when making a bad decision is a really cool thing but I still dislike the fact that the girl social links are auto-romance routes and they all want your dick in 5 interactions. And if you spend time with an another girl they'll get jealous. That's why I just picked only one girl I liked the most and did her social link. Most of the time I spent was with boy social links or the non-school ones.
On the other hand, Junpei doesn't have a social link in the game, yet he still remains the most developed character in P3, going from an envious, selfish asshole who fights shadows for fun to a determined partner who found meaning in life. That is why he's my favorite character in Persona 3.
tokimeki "migraine simulator" memorial is a bit too far in the opposite direction lol. but im with you that its nice to feel like theyre real people that will get mad at you sometimes.
I wouldn't say "need" especially since it brings both positives and negatives to the overall plot but I wouldn't want them to go.
Cold take
They could be great if they have consequences like how the Fate System works DESU if you don't take the social links well
@@yemmohater2796 It wasnt really supposed to be hot.
@@mysteryboii4869 Yeah an expanded fate system would be interesting.
I disagree, I mean if you remove social links it defeats the point of the calendar system, remove that and lose quite a bit of fans. Plus the difficulty mostly comes from time management anyhow.
fun fact, femc was intended for persona 3 from the very start, including the exclusivity of party member social links, but at some point it got cut. It seems for some reason, they always wanted every party member slink to be romantic.
@@enrique7934 There's unused data that indicates as such in the game
I feel like social links bring more negatives to the table than positives. Especially now that 80% of "character development" is through social links, but don't actually change much of anything. Also 2nd awakenings should absolutely be tied to the story like Persona 3.
Well, you can always play P1 and P2.
@@WhiteWomanSlasher I have. And more people would if Atlus cared enough to port them. If they can port Soul Hackers and remake Strange Journey there's no reason why they shouldn't port Persona 1 and 2.
Atlas doesn't need to port shit, its just people being lazy as fuck. P1 and P2IS/EP is so easy to emulate but people are just so lazy to do it or simply don't give a fuck about the older titles.
@@sonicsucks2961 What kind of brain dead logic is that? Persona 3 Portable is just as easy to emulate as those two, does that mean it shouldn't be included? I've already emulated both games, and I'd still pay a fair price for it. Especially if they actually improved the game.
@@FentyMixx I mean they did port them on psp and they didn't make enough sales to make atlus want to port them again
I think social links are necessary (but if we keep confidant perks, then we need some balancing) but I wish main cast had more story related character development. Like in P3, when characters dealt with their loses, found new determination to keep fighting and had their second awakening. Besides, we can keep the third awakening as something depending on player's action. Like, I wouldn't mind third awakening happening in P5 when main cast was locked in cells of Velvet Room, sure it would potentially take much longer to get through that scene, but it would be rewarding to see that characters with maxed social links gain motivation and power based on things they encountered so far as part of the main plot and things they learned and understood from spending time with you.
So, basically, I want highlight of a story to be not protag punching his therapist, but people around him growing.
(god I hope that makes sense, lol)
LOL yeah I can understand that basically part. Fleshing out characters over the course of the story would be nice and show a different side to them aside from the points I brought up in the video
Yeah I think tying party character's social links to game play could be a resolution. Essentially make unavailable time (ex time between morning and afternoon) a forced link once certain thresholds are met with the tipping point being in the main story and the extra fluff being accessed through something like character quests. Give the party controlled variability so the link will always be progressed to certain points with the main story.
I see what you're getting at, but I think that the cast has somewhat more understated character development in 4 and 5.
Yukiko opens up to the others over time, and even has laughing fits around them.
Yosuke goes from angrily wanting to kill Namatame, the supposed killer, for revenge to calmly handing Adachi, the real killer, over to the police.
Ann ends up having to come to grips with her not being able to do anything for Shiho, which helps her forgive Makoto.
Ryuji loses sight of why he became a Phantom Thief in the first place, but eventually comes to his senses.
I think the solution is simple: Either incorporate a bit of variety in the main plot to fit some SL character development, or make the SLs all about things not that related to the main plot at all.
I personally prefer the latter because it allows further fleshing out. A great example imo is Haru in P5. Her confidant is mostly about her struggles in the aftermath of her father's death (and all the corporate consequences that entailed), and also about her hobby of growing vegetables and later on coffee. It gives insight into her family (with the conversations about her grandfather), her hobbies, and the inner workings of Okumura foods (including the power struggle that came after Okumura's death). It's a highlight for how much it expands her character (and let's be honest, she needed it), and most importantly it doesn't conflict with anything in the main plot because it explores a side of her personality that doesn't show up during the main struggle of P5.
I think that even if they took this route with the SLs, they should think about incorporating some aspect of variation for SL progression in the plot. A good example in P5 is Mishima. His confidant is a really good character arc, but because it deals with his most important trait in the main plot, it seems like nothing changed in the major scenes. But he's in few enough scenes where accounting for the variation of the SL would be possible imo. Just stuff like him having a more mature relationship with the PTs would be enough. I think that's the main flaw of Persona games at the moment.
Imo social links are what I enjoy the most about Persona. Just like how I enjoy the supports in Fire Emblem (even tho persona takes it further). I feel they're good ways to grow close to the character and learn about them and Atlus also does a good job relating them to their arcana. Without them there wouldn't be as much to distinguish persona from other smt games a whole lot. Or that's at least what I think. The social links are the bulk of the gameplay for me lol
Yeah there is good and bad social links and good and bad ways to implement social, but critiquing social links as a whole feels like critiquing a genre for doing the genre well.
The whole point is general slice of life motifs mixed with metaphysical motifs to express connection to characters and explore metaphysical thoughts and stories.
not liking social links really comes down to two spheres: the implementation could change for specific games/links or i dont like slice of life. Call me elitist, but "I dont like slice of life" should not be acknowledged in a series who lean so much on slice of life.
@@enrique7934 that would be implementation, not social links or slice of life elements as a whole. Youd literally make persona less unique, less holistic, and less persona removing modern slice of life elements. Even the original games without social links had plenty of slice of life elements to them.
Plus the categorization between visual novels and an rpg like persona is largely just for ease of language. When it comes to building and designing an jrpg with the themes and motifs regularly used by all of the persona games, there is a huge overlap of available design principles of visual novel and jrpg
@@enrique7934 then play smt or soul hackers lol persona doesn't have to be for you if you don't like it. Or you know you don't have to do them lol
@@astaldo well that's not true. Everyone likes to say "1&2 are just like other megaten games" but a key difference is that even without social links, 1&2 are vastly more character driven than the mainline megaten series, most of those dont even give your party members character, they're just the demons.
But what makes me prefer Persona without the social links is... There's no calendar system, BUT also that any character focus is done more impactfully. The most common thing discussed in this comment section is how party member social link development doesn't carry over into the main story, and so just creates huge dissonance. Now, this is also partially a byproduct of the calendar system as well, but still an issue of the current format. And it's simply not an issue that can be fixed without ditching the current format. Tony also mentioned how in 1&2, side characters get nothing, and yeah while you're not gonna get hours of a personal individualized story, there are still side characters that actually do get highlight and charm whether through P1's 2nd story in Snow Queen Quest, or the rumor mongers and other sidequests in the P2s. And I would personally prefer this approach again, over the devs taking time to create what, 10+ side narratives of varying quality that may or may not tie into whatever the game's big theme is?
I get to a lot of players they just like to spend time with a character they dig or collect waifus, and despite the tone of my comment, I do enjoy a lot of s.links or at least the characters attached to them, and also think the extra gameplay benefits p5 provides is a good step forward. But I definitely would not lose sleep should they be removed. Nor would Persona "just become SMT" since it was already vastly different before including them.
Great video. I 100% agree that social links are what differentiates Persona from other JRPGs. I wouldn’t mind in the future a better balance of driving character interaction of the main party outside of the social link system, but overall I’m happy with where it is. It’s unique and one of the main things I look forward to when playing P3-5. Also…the calendar system must stay, again something else that is unique to the game play.
Hey glad people seem to agree! Here's hoping Persona 6 keeps improving the formula
"I hate Marie."
Tony you are so based...
Thanks king
I think Persona 3 and 4 had somewhat of the right idea of how to utilize their social links. In the case of 3, I think the decay or jealousy mechanics are actually a really cool idea, but it's held back by y the lack of choice to not romance a girl making it frustrating. It's nice though that the female party member social links aren't that extremely important to their character development outside of the story unlike 4 and 5.
Persona 4 has some really interesting social links in terms of how they function like how you can have an entire different link with Ai Ebihara depending on what you say to her or the Strength social link where you can either choose to hang out with Daisuke or Kou. And while some integral character development to your party is unfortanately locked behind their social links, having them learn new moves for their Personas as well as some really helpful assist abilities is a nice reward.
Persona 5, however, I think goes way too overboard. Now every social link has some benefit outside of experience and can completely break the game. And honestly, this made me less interested in the struggles of the characters and more interested in the rewards that I would get from them. There's a lot of great social links in P5, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't do another rank because I wanted a discount on my medicine or to learn a cool gun trick.
Great video!
One thing that you didn’t mention about the social links is how the simple existence of them reinforces the main theme of each game.
In Persona 3, the main theme is Death and the search of a reason to live even in the face of death and the protagonist reason to live are the new people he met and became friends and eventually created solid bonds, which are the social links (the party as a whole represented by the fool and the judgement arcanas).
In Persona 4, one of the differences between the protagonist and Adachi (the second most important antagonist) is how the protagonist makes bonds with everyone around him and because of that he is not alone and doesn’t become resented and nihilistic like Adachi. Izanami (as far as I understand her lore) was also abandoned and in her loneliness distorted the TV world and the protagonist bonds show her the Truth of the importance of connections.
Finally, in Persona 5, the Rebellion theme is reinforced by knowing how each confidant defies the oppressive rules of the world and in Royal the theme of overcoming the pain is also improved by seeing how much better each confidant ends their journey, specially when compared to where they were before meeting Joker.
Also, it gives a great excuse to have a final moment where “the power of friendship wins the game”, because the protagonist earned the friends he makes, he (maybe she in P3P) invested time (and sometimes money - Tanaka in P3 and Chihaya and Kawakami in P5) and because of that, the final moment feels more special than otherwise.
One thing that I would like to see in Persona 6 is a “True ending” only possible if you max out all the party member social links (or confidants). At least some extra cutscenes where the game recognizes that feat in the final battle would be nice.
Thanks! That's very true about the themes. I mentioned it a bit at the end of each segment, but didn't expand on it much for time reasons. Each of those interpretations for the games is spot on though
Personally I don't think they're necessary, the Classic Persona trilogy showed how they can make very memorable characters without them being relegated to an optional mechanic, at least that's what I think
Tony once again have slayed that Atlus bussy with another banger of a video.
If he really wanted that Altus bussy, he would give some love to the Etrian Odyssey series
(cries in forgotten franchise)
@@Sh1ranu1 stay strong! We Etrian Odyssey fans need to stick together.
A lot of what you said reminded me of Projared’s video on Final Fantasy 6 and why that game is held in such a high regard. He argued that it’s not a bad thing to have sequences that don’t directly progress the plot if they develop character. Having social link type interactions not only allows the player to get more immersed in the world making events more meaningful, but persona also gives the player the control to dictate how much of an investment they want to make.
May have consequences to other qualities of the game but from a world building standpoint it’s why these games are so much more memorable than others.
I remember when I first played Persona 3 in my final year of high school, and then Persona 4 when I started college, the social links and entire vibe of managing a JRPG side to a game but also a more communicative and character focused downtime experience was something that blew me away. Persona 1 and the 2 duology are both good and have lots to love about them, but a Persona game without Social Links or Confidants wouldn't really feel like a Persona game to me.
Unless it's like a spinoff, akin to P4AU or P5S.
Yeah I had the same experience. The social links are so important to people, myself included
Before watching: my main criticism of social links is that they divide your limited time outside of gameplay a bit to 'manic-ly' and it triggers some of the FOMO trouble I have with games if I don't fit enough visits with X character within certain time-frames. I like incentives for hanging out but I don't like character developments being super miss-able or tied behind high social stats.
I still like S-links now but they could be better.
The time outside of dungeon crawling is also gameplay. But, a different form which is time management. Where you are strategizing how to best spend your time. You usually see this genre combined with stat raisers. (which if you think about it, rpg's are basically stat raisers.)
I whole heartily agree with character development being relegated to social links. I believe the story should be for development and social links should serve as fleshing out the character.
I like social links but I feel like it's needs improving. My issues stem from party member SLinks in P4 and P5 and the calendar/social stats mechanic.
When I first played P4 and P5, I didn't finish a single party member SLink because I assumed I would learn about them from the main story so I would rather hang out with side characters. I was disappointed when I realized how the main narrative doesn't do much or anything with the party members after they join. On top of that, the fact the character's SLinks can't affect the main story/how they act in the main story annoys me. One of my friends did Ryuji's SLink in the hopes he would become a better character in the main story. When Ryuji remained static my friend felt the SLink was a waste of time from a narrative perspective. P4G and P5R having mandatory SLinks to unlock the true ending also means prioritizing certain characters, that you may not even like, just to get the bonus content those versions were advertised with.
The calendar kills the pacing in P3, P4 and P5 for me. P3 gave a reason for why you have to wait so much but, P4 and P5 feel like it's just there cause P3 did it. Having to wait so long for the plot to progress gets annoying after awhile. It's weird how P3 (though it did try to limit you with "Tired" and "Sick" status), P4 and P5 incentivize completing a dungeon in one day but, you can't do the same for an SLink. Making it 75% visual novel and 25% dungeon crawling. Not helped by having to waste time grinding social stats that do nothing but gate off SLinks. Yakuza: Like a Dragon at least has social stats benefit the main character, Ichiban Kasuga, in combat.
I feel like SLinks were done better in games like The Caligula Effect 1 & 2. Those games do have the downside of blocking off SLink ranks until you're in certain chapters, but I feel the upsides outweigh that. Like having to use the party member in combat which incentivizes trying out new members. No calendar system means you can choose to continue the plot whenever you want. The SLink ranks can have characters reflect on moments from the main plot instead of keeping it entirely separate. A feature that I also like is that you have to pay attention to what you say otherwise you could break the SLink (I know reversing/breaking was disliked in P3 by many).
I also want to add that I feel like Devil Survivor 1 & 2 did the mechanic better. Having the games be 7 Days meant that the story was still moving along despite the down time. You didn't need social stats to progress with the characters. Your choices also gave you alternate scenarios which added more replay value.
@@Gordoniankid I prefer Sakura Wars 2 -5 ,,Clock System'' (one interaction cost 5 minutes of 1 hour free time, which means you have ,,fast'' 12 interactions beetwen main story progression (u can also skip this completely, going MC to his room), for me this is ideal system, because not only dont ruins story pacing, but also dont force player to read ,,scipted'' event do you not want watch (like example: boring and repetive studying in classrom). Clock System in those games have only ONE DAY or TWO DAYS to spend free time, which help player with focusing on main story. And most important: NO LOADING SCREENS, because events are in one day !!! And this thing is from 20-25 years old Saturn / Dreamcast games. Devil Survivor is also great example of good Time Managment System.
I liked reversing in 3. But, god forbid the characters in Persona dislike the player dialogue choices.
It def helps with immersion and grows appreciation for each of their little quirks
I feel like for persona 5 it is a good point for the most part that all of the things from confidants are just benefits, except for the star confidant, those aren't benefits those are things that should have just been available to the player. Like switching your party members in the middle of a battle, I don't know that's been an JRPGs since 1992
I'm tired of the characters have "episodes" of story and then they get reduced to cheap comedy in the main story
You summed up my whole view on p3's social link and writing so well and waaaay quicker then I ever could. I still prefer 3 way of handling characterization and trying persona evolution to the main plot but I think it's also fits 3 tones better in comparison to 4/5.
With how the modern Persona games are made and set up, social links are absolutely necessary. Keep in mind I have personally played the whole series minus P3, so I am well aware that P1, P2:IS and P2:EP all work without Social Links however those games are setup as wildly different games. If you took out Social Links, then you really wouldn't have a need for the calendar/date system and without that then the entire structure of the game would shift to be more like SMT which I see if a detrimental since it would really strip away what makes the Persona series and SMT series different.
If you remove Social lInks and Calendar System from Persona u will have game more like fusion between Devil Summoner and SMT If.
My problem with social links is that it severely restricts characters because of how they can be done at any time - this means that none of the social link development can be present in the story unless it's an auto link. It also screws over side characters as many interesting side characters lack social links because they have to re appear in the story without development - Chidori, Hanako, Ikutsuki. And the social link characters end up disappearing from the story entirely so they don't have to acknowledge the social link - Tae, Ohya, Iwai or the game just acts like you never did the link like Kawakami. The social links ultimately come at a cost to the overall story and hamper development.
Another series that I love that does something similar is Fire Emblem with their supports. Its setup differently, in that characters have them with people other then the main character. Because of this each character has multiple different stories to show off their personality and grow. The different stories help as you can see many different sides of characters, but due to so many of these being made, they are a lot shorter than social links. Games tend to have a max of 3-4 support conversations till they reach max.
Its really interesting seeing how both of these series handle it and seeing the highs and lows of both systems.
Three Houses obviously took a lot of inspiration from Persona. I'm trying to think of ways Persona can likewise learn from Fire Emblem.
@@quillion3rdoption Fire Emblem took inspirations from Persona -> Persona took inspirations from Sakura Wars -> Sakura Wars and Langrisser from Sega Saturn popularized genre Social SIm mixed with gameplay (in Japan)
My main issue is how a main party members link doesnt sync with their main story progression. I wish they gave the party a link like in P3 and reserved social links to all the extras.
I for one love the bonuses in confidants in Persona 5, never played Persona 3 but I have played 4. Honestly, I didn’t like the social links in P4, for one, every time it ranked up a bright light flashes the screen and I go blind for a second and secondly it’s hard to find social links without a guide. I really wanted to do Kanji’s social link and Adachi’s but I always had trouble finding them, and then you have hidden dialogue that you can’t click unless you’re in NG+, that’s either hit or miss. I didn’t care for much of the characters in P4, so aside from that one trophy you getting for maxing out everyone I felt no need to do their social links.
In Persona 5 where pretty much all the confidants had a mementos requests felt more in theme with the game, where the characters were pretty much being screwed over by someone and feel as though there’s nothing they could do about it until the phantom thieves come along and help them out. Yoshida’s was one of my favorites and the fact that he didn’t need you to go to mementos and fixed his own problem was nice, I honestly disliked Makoto’s the most, being dragged around and stalking some girl was just meh to me.
Maybe the social links/confidants should be more just hanging out with them and learning more about them while the character development proceeds with the story.
No, they are a waste of time. If you want to have character development, incorporate it in the main story, or at least just have them not give you dialogue options (depending on which ones you choose your social link might increase at a slower or faster rate, which is horrible with personas callendar system, it results in either saving and reloading or using a guide if you want to max all of them)
My thoughts exactly.
So just make persona a linear rpg? Then why would i play persona? The main reason people play it is because of the social life sim
In other words: Remove what makes Persona unique compared to other JRPGs because i don't like it
@@renren47618 Being unique isn't always a good thing, especially when you're sacrificing actual character development. 3 handles it well but in 4 and 5 characters are barely relevant after their arc. Also it's actually ridiculous to even imply that dating sim mechanics is what makes Persona unique. Especially because there are other games that have it. And the games were still pretty popular before the mechanics were even introduced.
@@FentyMixx the fact that you summarized the social links as dating sim when things like Akinari Social Link exist or Dojima
Also, indeed P4 and 5 had this problem but it's something that can be solved and it's not the mechanic's fault but Atlus's fault
While I do enjoy social links and view Nanako's and Dojima's SLs as some of my favorite stories in vidya, the system has inherent flaws. One of comes to mind is exclusive to P3 in that the lack of male SLs makes it seem that Makoto does not care at all about spending time with his team.
However, the more obvious is the way that SLs just... end. When you reach rank ten with a character, the protagonist has established a truly unbreakable bond with that character, having learned and assisted the character in his struggles. This is directly told to you through the Velvet Room attendant. When the character thanks the protagonist for the last time, the protag heads off with no reason to ever speak to that character again.
There is very much a narrative-gameplay disconnect when it comes to SLs. Most characters are not even available to hang out with when their SLs are completed, with the exceptions being club characters (I think), "special" characters like Chihaya, and your romantic partner in the game. Even then, the former is just for increasing your social stats and the latter brings no benefit, something that the game will even directly tell you in P4. Yes, I did walk Yukiko home some afternoons due to my lack of interest in maxing everything, but those afternoons were mechanically wasted.
On a lesser note, there is the issue with how persona awakenings and character arcs are now tied to SL completion. I do enjoy the vast majority of party member SLs in P4 and P5, but few of them felt as impactful as the awakenings in P3. While this is not a major issue and really a matter of taste, party members going through separate arcs in the story and SLs is a more apparent issue, in my eyes. It was not as bad in P4 as it was in P5, but seeing characters accept deaths or aspects of themselves in the SLs and then not acknowledge it in the story was slightly irritating. P5 was worse, especially with the almost separate development of Ryuji in his confidant and story, but I will admit that it was never bad enough to make me dislike the system.
Overall, I do believe that the SL system should stay despite needing large amounts of rework, but I am at a loss at how to incorporate fixes while still balancing the game play and narrative of the games.
Bit weird how you rag on P3 for letting you date Ken but ignores P5 letting you date every older women that breathes. I don't mind the option cause I always romance Kawakami every playthrough but just wanted to point out the inconsistency.
I personally tend to lean towards not liking Social Links as a whole. Mainly because I don’t play Persona for the VN aspects, but I understand a lot of people don’t feel the same as I do. I don’t necessarily despise them, but if I had to choose having them or not, I would probably choose the latter.
I like how they’ve been implemented into the gameplay, by powering up fused Personas of specific Arcanas and giving further bonuses for other gameplay aspects when maxed out in P5.
I personally dislike the fact that the main plot sometimes takes a back seat to the social elements and the fact that they, along with the whole “Wild Card” shtick, seem to make party members seem much less important than they should be and practically focuses all the attention to the protagonist.
Tl;dr: I personally have gripes with the system, but I understand it’s pretty much what made Persona popular and gave it it’s own identity.
I would say no. While they can be a nice novelty, these days they have become nothing more than a crutch for the writing not having to include character development into the actual story. The way it is done also forces the characters to basically become static in order for them to fit regardless of where in the narrative you are.
Also, the Persona evolutions should really be story tied, no S-Link tied given how important those events are meant to be.
Also, another issue I have with modern S-links is the lack of consequence. It is like you can do whatever you want and it will always progress to the same conclusion. It would be best if they had multiple endings depending on your actions.
I feel like the social links are required to demonstrate the bonds that the protagonist makes over the year which rips your heart out when you have to leave this world. Also I find it somewhat poignant that you need to seek out your friend's stories/development. It shows that learning about others takes work on your part. Your team members are there for you no matter what but to truly understand them, you need to spend time with them individually
Maybe not necessary, but Social Links have become a part of what makes Persona stand out from other RPGs. It has to stick around for that reason alone. What doesn't need to stick around is stuff like P5R requiring you have certain SLs completed to play the new content added in that expansion. Not only do you not know that initially and could easily miss them, but on the romance side of things, I don't like how you're able to choose who you can start a relationship with... but forcing you to hang with Kasumi sorta forces her as Joker's main love interest. It somewhat invalidates your choices as the player. With the exception of an auto-progressing SL (ideally only 1 of them), SLs should be optional things you can do to get to know the characters and gain more power.
Good takes all around. Kasumi was another Persona 5 unintended consequence, but overall the series keeps improving
@@Hazewhite
Looked it up. Wiki does say only Maruki is needed for 3rd Semester. Could've sworn Akechi and Kasumi were needed too given that they're very important in that new story.
I never thought ohya was a bad confidant, just kinda meh, I don't know, I guess I just like her personality.
Yeah overall Persona 5's worst social links are just mediocre, had to choose someone for that segment though
They definitely need to rework the party-member links if they're going to stick around. Having important character development locked behind optional scenes is so stupid and it's been influencing other RPG series in a negative way. If a character is going to be a main party-member they need to actually develop over the course of the main story. There are plenty of other ways they can still keep party-member links without gutting the main story. It is not necessary.
Liking the video so far, but I did want to say that just because you played P4 for the first time in your early college years doesn't mean you don't have nostalgia for it. Just not *childhood* nostalgia. You can be nostalgic about anything that reminds you of a certain time in your life.
That is true yes, I wanted to punctuate that point as I still think that the game is amazing and can play it at any time and enjoy it.
Yes - it’s fundamental to the series identity now.
Absolutely. It sets it apart from other JRPGS like Final Fantasy. It may not effect a main plot but it's like removing all the side activities in Yakuza games.
One thing I like about the social link system is in order for you to sometimes get that character's story cutscnes and rank up you may have to spend a day just hanging out. It along with the opt in nature is really immersive. My favorite game in the series despite it's rough edges is Persona 3. Yukari and Ken (though for other reasons than his messed up social link for a female MC) maybe infamous but unlike some people I find them to be some the best characters in the whole series. Though it does probably help that I had Makoto date Yukari so her behavior in the Answer made more sense to me but I digress.
I never thought of that, but yeah/ Not every interaction with people is gonna be super eventful, and just passing time with someone is as important as anything else
I feel like the main character social links should be tied into the main progression a bit more. Like, for example, if you make it that you can only unlock ranks 1-3 after the first dungeon, then the second dungeon unlocks rank 4-5, and so on and so on. If this is properly adjusted on a character-by-character basis, and if the game makes it extremely clear to players that the social link won't progress any further at that specific point, it could work wonders to synergize the individual character development and the main plot progression.
Socials are funny in the series, on one hand they can lend characters outside of the core cast some good to great stories, personals fav are Akinari in 3, Adachi, and Kawakami.
But they can also feel a bit restrictive imo, 5’s main cast felt like different people in their links at times, and, while totally subjective, I preferred 3’s story based awakenings over 4 and 5’s.
I do think they help give the series it’s identity, but like anything there are some inherent drawbacks to it.
Great video as always! As a washed up boomer p3 fan I thought I’d offer my take on it’s systems.
Yeah no guy social links is just an L. No two way around that.
That being said I don’t think the system was original designed for someone trying to max every link in one playthrough. Time being fleeting is a big theme of this game in particular so I think the stress of the jealousy systems and the reverse social link stuff is really cool. Forces you to decide what’s valuable in your limited time in this world. Ties in nicely with that death theme
I will just paraphrase someone else 'If character development is contained in optional, easy to miss side activities, then they should not exists'. In modern personas, social links exist mostly to make you live your power fantasy, a person everyone must depend on, without who they can't do shit by themselves (if you never open the door for Yusuke he will be unable to become a better artist for life etc.).
Combine it with a fact, that there is a visible line between development in social links and main story and you get straight bullshit.
In other words, if they are to exist, atlus need to either find better writers, or go nuts with it like mass effect series. I don't see them doing either.
Tell that to everyone who enjoyed those side activities. Really hard to miss those when half of the game pushes you to do them.
@@johnathonturner2279 i enjoyed them too. But I didn't do all if them. And characters who I didn't were not developed, like at all. It's a clear flaw, that should be done better
If you know the amazing games Trails of Cold Steel, I can't help but think that the bonding system there is included only because of how iconic the Social Links systems are in Persona history
I'm a very big fan of the Legend of Heroes series! It is quite similar in concept
i rly feel like the modern personas have written themselves into a corner with main cast slinks. the side stories they tell are by far better than what we had in p1-2, but the main group suffers for having development locked behind optional content that by its nature cant impact the status quo too much. imo having the main character dev be tied into the main story and having slinks all be truly optional content would be the ideal balance, but i cant see that happening if only bc of the waifu players wanting to keep up the dating sim vibes.
good stuff as always tony, always get me thinking about stuff way too hard. 👍
Great video, I love how social links add some replay value to the game
Thanks a lot! Yeah this was a great way to finalize my opinion on social links. Took a while though lol
@@Tony4You it really shows the effort you put in
However they plan to do it, I really think the whole “your actions in the story and character interaction buffs your performance in combat” mechanic that persona popularized needs to be kept in some way. It’s SO awesome of a system. Basically giving you a tangible reason to interact with the story. More games need this is some form. It would be really cool. Now, exactly HOW they go about it is up to interpretation.
Atlus should do exactly this for Persona 6. And make the ending of the game based on which links you did and did not develop.
Honestly I never like the lovers arcana in each of the 3 games, I never liked yukari, rise was manipulated back into being an idol, and Ann just laughed when she found out her rival was breaking the law and ruining people's jobs, and calling her a "Saturday villian" and you know, not a terrible person
While I disagree with Yukari and Rise, honestly that point with Ann I kind of never thought about before lol. Yeah it is weird
@@Tony4You I will admit with yukari its just a me thing but you don't see how it's manipulative with rise? I'm pretty positive rise says that her manager was never so nice to her, as in giving her her own fans letters. Smells to me like he'd trying to get her back on how sad they all were. Which is playing with her heart and is not cool. Like the letters could have made her go but the fact that the manager was never this kind to her was mmmmm
@@Christian-gr3gu Kinda felt that Rise one, not Takeba though. Rise felt so...forced?
i have never heard of social links in persona 3 "regressing a rank". i only ever experienced them reversing (the tarot card turns into the "reverse position") which essentially just stops you from being able to rank them up until you reconcile with them (which is pretty easy). if you say the wrong thing while trying to reconcile with them a social link can become "broken" and you will have to talk to them 3(?) times to get back on track. while persona 3's jealousy mechanic is far too punishing, i believe the player *should* face some consequence for being a bad friend and would honestly like to see reverse social links to come back without the jealousy mechanic. also i don't think second persona forms for party members shouldn't be locked behind their social link. it should be part of the story like 3, while their 3rd form remains locked behind an event you can only do after maxing the link.
Yeah it makes sense in theory, but with the added forced relationships with female links and restrictive stat requirements it becomes rough. I still love the game though
@@Tony4You oh i agree. don't bring back forced relationships or anything like that. i just wanna see megaten fans get punished because they're socially inept and saying something mean/stupid. lol.
I think Megaten series has always had sort of side characters or at least info you can optionally interpret or look up yourself. Even in first Shin Megami Tensei in certain regards. Where you can talk to certain people or see certain events that might give info as to what's going on in the background or contradict a character's statement to make them seem questionable.
Social links, *in-theory* should be sort of enhanced version of this, but considering this is directly tied into gameplay in certain ways, the main story suffers from lacking in-character development for the main cast, it being forced into a management game with a tight schedule and sometimes the social links not being exactly good, I don't think it's a formula you can keep fresh or engaging in a long run throughout franchise.
Because it also limits how other characters would interact with other characters, or be given a chance for side characters to be developed as well (Because social links are isolated usually from each other). It also doesn't help that so much importance is placed on the main character, who doesn't exactly have a set personality.
Now this has always been the case with alot of Megaten protags, with exception of Persona 2 in certain regards, but they're usually trying to tell a story of an average person going against the odds in certain regard, and their party members are usually of similar strength. However the whole 'Wild Card'-thing I think completely fucks this whole thing up and it makes other characters entirely depend on the main character. Other characters can't interact with the Velvet Room, your character has all the Personas and they get just 1, with maybe some awakened versions added on-top.
What I'm implying here, is that it doesn't feel natural for those to be 'social links', ironically enough. People joke about the whole 'power through friendship or co-operation', but you can beat the games mostly regardless with also great power already placed on the protagonist himself, story implies this to be otherwise, but through gameplay and execution, it doesn't.
In my opinion, Social Links give way too many downs with the formula that Persona is using, it may be good in-terms of attracting people, but it's not good for the overall long-term health of the franchise in it's story and gameplay. Either remove the system entirely and incorporate a good story in which characters develop, or develop a new system that enhances this, but doesn't become such a main feature.
In p3p the characters gained the actions like healing a status condition or taking a mortal blow from the fool slink not there own one
P3’s Fool arcana also unlocked more tactics for the party’s in combat actions, showing how their ability to fight together grows and changes as well as the protagonist’s ability to lead.
@@Salt_Mage Wasn't that only in FES? Since portable simplified Tactics I guess they added other passives to try and get the same feeling across
I like social links, my problem is the arbitrary requirements to unlock them, why do we have to upgrade social stats & are limited to having social links only happen on certain days of the week
I couldn't manage to max some important social links in my first playthrough of Persona 4. Since I was always spending time with main party members in the main story, I was more curious about other characters like Kou, Eri and Yumi. So when I maxed them there wasn't enough time to max some party members. Also I couldn't max Nanako social link because of expression requirement. When I finally had enough expression, she was in hospital and there wasn't enough time left to max her social link.
This is one of biggest flaws Social Links in Persona games - requirements. Fuckin FOX and late game Social Links like Naoto :D
Happened to me in P5 as well. I came in from p3 thinking SL were just complimentary, so I prioritized the non-Party SLs so i could explore as many of the characters as possible. I was really disappointed when I got to Morgana Rank 10 and it dawned on me that all ultimate personas were tied to the SLs
My problem is the fact of how easy the social links/confidants feel when you playthrough between P3, 4, and 5. Especially on a second playthrough.
I'd like to see your Social Links affect certan aspects of the plot, even if it's only changing a few lines of dialogue. Fire Emblem Three Houses proves this is possible; for example, in one story scene, Dorothea isn't as cold to Ferdinand if they have a B support(the maximum they can have at the time).
Can we have a social link in a future Persona game where it’s a reversed Jester/Hunter situation from Golden with the person in question being a former enemy of yours before defecting from the villains or being betrayed by their former colleagues and being rescued by the heroes? It’d be interesting to form a bond with someone who previously was hostile towards you and getting to know them better outside of the main plot.
Heck, it’d be a way to have a Persona user bearing the Death arcana since we haven’t had one since Persona 1.
SLs with the villains are the most interesting ones narratively since you get to know your foes up close and interacting with them outside of their villainous roles.
I think they are 100% needed. I think that the problem is that people in the persona community and the rpg community I'm general have a way of looking at games that only applies to them and how they enjoy games which is perfectly fine. But for a lot of pepole, mys self included, the worst part of rpgs are the hours and hours of mindless grinding. The social sim aspect dose an excellent job of breaking up this monoutmy and through the fusion boosts and skills you unlock from them it links perfectly to the main game play. At the same many of them do a great job of further developing the characters. They allow the player to tackle the game t their own pace. Imo he game would be significantly worse without them.
I think they should be balanced as well. I loved how p1, and p2 handled its characters within the actual story and how well written they were already, but I also like the downside of getting to explore and meet new characters and gain abilities but I feel with a bit more tweaking it could be perfected even further.
Of course it's all opinion, but I honestly have a complete 180 from you on 3 and 4.
4 felt annoying at times, like I NEED to do them at times if I wanted the bonuses and to understand these characters. 3 I felt like I knew these characters from the story, and the Links were just extra I can choose to like or not like
I do also really like 3's characters just in general more, so I'm sure that helps.
As much as i love the social link system I dont think it would work in the first 3 games considering that their stories essentially take place over a couple of days or a week at best so there isnt much time to interact with any side characters for a long time
I’ve always liked that characters would feel out of character is you didn’t do their social link, it makes them feel like they’re going through their character arc without you being there.
While I do somewhat enjoy the social link system, I just feel that Atlus doesn't know what to do with it anymore, with P5 especially suffering the most IMO
Love social links and think they are necessary and iconic to persona since it’s a very character heavy series, but for the main cast, the social links should be more balanced for how much character development is in them. I feel like the main cast’s most important plot lines should be developed in the main story rather than used for social links. I feel like Persona 6 will improve on that aspect.
I can see this for sure. Persona 3 had it's ups and downs, but the male party members development was handled really well
You just described Sakura Wars 1-5 you know ?
I love persona 3's social links. Shout out to tower, sun, star, devil, and emperor. I love them
Just realized:
Keisuke (Persona 3)
Keisuke (Devil Survivor)
They remind me of each other too
This is why i liked how Tokyo Mirage handle this, your interactions with other characters were sidequests thats it.
The rare TMS praise. I really liked the way they handled it as well
I kinda feel mixed on the social links.
Persona 4: It made me fall in love with Yukiko and made me like and understand Rise more. Like if Rise wasn't so obsessed with You she would have been so perfect.
Persona 5: The social Link characters and main story characters feel so different.
Like Yuki feels like his 180 by himself is undeserved especially since after Kamoshidas arc he feels more like just the PT cheerleader.
Even if you finish Kawakamis social link she still has a depressed and annoyed look. And like you said Makoto just slapped that girl.
Based Yukiko fan???
P3 did it best. The main cast had their own development in the story and then had some side development in their social links and it worked perfectly. In Persona 4 and 5 characters feel like they don't have any development or even importance at all in the main story except for very few scenes.
Social link decay and jealousy are removed in the male route in p3p
I think it needs it
As the whole point is Boosting the bond to have a Strong Persona
Do they need them? No. Are they fun? Yes! 😁
Hey you know what? You're right!
So much this!
As a red blooded male who has entered multiple social links with women irl, I can say that it is impossible not to romance them all. Then I wake up.
honestly in regards of the Social Links between 3, 4, and 5, i think 5 felt the more...unnecessary. not because they're overall bad, quite the opposite, a lot of the characters and their stories in 5 are indeed interesting to delve into, but rather just how much is put into 5. the life sim aspects, social stats, and story & RPG elements in this all felt like it just crammed so much content in relatively not enough time, even in a New Game Plus. especially since every single arcana gets brought up, and for some they essentially make it feel like doing it is mandatory, not by choice due to how much it'll tell you to touch back on specific characters. i kinda wished that there'd be more of a balance to it all so it didn't make me feel stressed trying to do them. Royal....doesn't fix this to much of a degree, instead adding more content and 3 new social links. while some aspects got rearranged and changed from the original iteration, adding 3 more, and the game saying "level them up before the new deadline for the new story" personally i just thought it felt more stressful while playing.
and personally, while i will admit character wise, the social links in 3 were not the best, conceptually and story wise, a number of social links were really well done. i honestly enjoyed seeing certain characters develop and grow on their own as the story progressed, like Junpei with Chidori, or Akihiko & Ken with Shinjiro. i thought it made those characters feel more fleshed out. while 4 & 5 focused more on the protagonist being the character that gives way to the development between other social links, i do think it makes it feel like without them, the other characters can't grow or change (even tho some characters in 4 & 5 can just develop regardless through story, my point still stands)
also in Golden & Royal, i'm personally not one for characters like Marie/Yoshizawa being pushed more towards the canon love interest, couse the player should have that choice without feeling like it's the wrong one. unless we're talking about Ken.
Social Links are not a bad idea for the series, not in any means, but personally i feel if there were more characters that could develop on their own with the story and less that needed the player regardless, we could probably have some really interesting stories and character developments that occur. less quantity and more quality essentially.
What really needs a change is not social links but the calendar system. It just kills the pacing of the game. Get through a objective in one go then wait for something to happen in two weeks is pretty bad pacing.
In a game that is about overcome life problems through the bonds with people, I would say yes
Persona 1 and 2 don't have them, so no.
Shu is highly relatable for most of asian kids who grew up with similar stressful environment xD But I do wish they wrote him better and in a more likeable manner.
Just speaking personally, I'm only becoming more and more disinterested in the series the more it starts leaning on the social sim aspects. My first MegaTen game was Persona 3 FES and what really made me gravitate towards it wasn't the calendar system or the dating - it was the great atmosphere, fun combat and just how well-developed everyone in SEES was. Slinks were nice and did a nice job expanding on the story's main theme but for me, they were secondary to the main plot and dungeon crawling.
Which is why I didn't vibe with P4 or P5 nearly as much as I did with P3, where, unlike with P3, where Slinks were a major mechanic but not a centralising one, Slinks are _everything._ You need to do Slinks to power up your party members, you need to do Slinks to pay smaller healing fees, you need to do Slinks to switch characters in battle, you need to do Slinks to have more time with other actions in the overworld etc. You're always penalised for choosing an Slink that's considered not as important instead of the ones that give you the big benefits and it makes the planning process so much less fun. Arcana bonuses and endgame demons were already good enough incentives to plan out your time well, this just feels overdone.
That and I also agree with everyone about how boring Slinks are in P4 and P5 from the writing perspective. Locking development to optional story paths that don't affect the main story in any tangential way sucks and feels like a crutch for writing in the arcs for the characters without committing to them. It's why I don't really care about anyone in P4 other than Dojima who is well-realised and dynamic in-story and whose Slink does a great job expanding on his struggles as a single father. Everyone else though? I mean they may be charming but that charm quickly wears off when you go back to the main story and Rise is still hitting hard on Yu and everyone continues to bully Yosuke the same way they did before they supposedly grew as people in their Slinks. P3 got around that by simply... developing the main cast throughout the story and locking the links until after the major character moments. That way, they felt more complimentary to their arcs rather than supplementary. Aeon is also one of my favourite Slink because it feels like a natural conclusion to Aigis' story in the Journey and does a great job fleshing out her Pinocchio arc further.
Not to mention, and this is also a bit of an unpopular opinion, but in hindsight, I'm glad SEES guys didn't get any slinks because that meant the world could be populated with more oddball people Makoto would meet on his Fool's journey. P4 and P5, once again, the game heavily wants you to focus on the main party links at all times and that's also a problem because they're generally the more standout characters, partly by their PM status but also because... other NPCs just feel so... plain. Idk it's generally hard for me to remember their links because they're kinda just normal people who require Yu/Ren to fix their problems. Plus P5 (and also P3P) have some... yikesy dating options.
Oh and the calendar system leads to a very uneven pacing - the month starts, you scale the dungeon on the first day or the first two days because that's most optimal and then you're left with hours of doing nothing but social sim stuff until you reach the next story beat. At least in P3, the Tartarus doesn't interfere with too many of your activities so you're encouraged to be more free-form about your planning and full moon bosses were a nice conclusion to the month.
I also see a lot of ppl claiming that Slinks are what makes Persona stand out but... do they? At this point, pretty much every jRPG under the sun has dabbled in some form of a social sim system like Slinks. Frankly, it's harder to find one that _didn't._
And in all honesty, even if it is unique to the series, I think at this point, I'd rather it were left behind. For one thing, I'm more into dungeon crawling than life sim parts, as stated before (my favourite MegaTen games are the DDS duology - story-heavy dungeon crawlers but still dungeon crawlers), so personal bias. But also, I unironically think they are also limiting a certain part of the series' appeal - in that they're always written around the assumption the MC is a straight (because Hashino games have no backbone) guy and trying to divert from that by writing a female route would by itself be a massive undertaking, as proven by the FemC route in P3P, which diverts in multiple ways, both minor and major, from the MamC route, in spite being the same exact story at its core. And since both P4 and P5 are leaning very heavily in the escapism aspect, it only serves to alienate the audience that doesn't quite vibe with the male-centric viewpoint and maybe wants to date the guys (because, again, Hashino games have no backbone) or have their struggles as girls in the modern society acknowledged as well.
So uh tl;dr P4 and P5 Social Links are kind of a mess.
The Dying Young Man's social link is honestly probably my favorite out of any of the other social links In the three games.
I feel like giving a numerical ranking to social links limits the story potential. As it makes the pacing of each link really really predictable. I mean yes its an RPG. But on principle, the act of ranking human interaction just comes off as somebody who doesn't understand how human interaction works. And as such, creates very jank stories about human bonds.
When I see moments about social links. I just keep thinking about how I grinded my stats to reach the next rank of the social link. Than any of the story moments involved with that particular link. because functionally they are kinda meaningless. They just exist to give you access to bigger number.
At first I thought the ken social link was like innocent love like kids don't know much about relationships and are immature maybe I should play it again and complete it to see
I still can't stomach P3P being chosen over FES for the remaster. I think I'll just stick with emulation.
I personally really like the social link/confidant system of the persona series. I just wish p5 did a better job with their confidants, especially for the main party members. I won't go into too much detail but the things that really stand out is how Ryuji becomes a more mature person at the end of his confidant route, understanding that not every problem can be solved by shouting or beating it up, and yet an incidence like the completely pointless Ryuji vs Morgana thing happens. My friends and I joke that a completely different team wrote the confidant stories and the main story and they had little communication with each other
I beg to differ in shu, as someone with very strict parents and someone who was crushed by the expectations of my mother feeling that I was more living to fulfill those expectations than living for myself, I think he's pretty relatable and I liked being the friend I wish I had to someone who's in a position similar to mine
I honestly think they should've went the complete other way and make it so party members don't get social links at all and all of them are side characters, barring the few story related links like fool and judgement and death and whatever else the game in particular demands. That would make it so that the writers have to develop all the main characters parallel to the plot without straying from the path and going to a side lane for no reason. As for romance, that could easily be done through the main story itself as well
I personally would like to keep confidants from p5 but make party members develop along with the story and not be confidants
No. The problem is the dissonance between the world-endy backdrop "main story" being paused to chat with social links and work part time. It's filler designed as the main part of the game.
Haven't wacthed the video yet , but my answer is definite yes . The most fun parts of the persona games