High Speed Printing: Hot End, Temperatures, Silicone Sock and Materials
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 เม.ย. 2024
- Well, and I thought printing a 10 minutes 3DBenchy on the VORON 0 was easy. Turn's out I still have a lot of things to tune and learn! In this video we'll take a look at the performance difference of a high flow hotend, how extrusion temperature and different materials impact extrusion rates and also the effect of silicone socks. I wanted to include even more but there were some complications… well, you'll see! Let's find out more!
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:17 Creep Testing
02:59 Extrusion Limits
04:20 Extrusion Tests - Temperatures & High Flow Hotend
07:09 Extrusion Tests - Silicone Sock
11:05 Extrusion Tests - Materials
13:44 Summary
#3DPrinting #SpeedBoatRace - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Is fast the new big? What do you think about this new speed-printing trend?
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It's extremely fascinating to watch someone like MirageC print the 5min benchy on his HervORT. Looks like a timelapse if you turn the sound off.
stephan, i have the exact same wera toque wrenches here. they are awesome. you have made a pretty excelllent creep test in my opinionwith the dials, and also nice to hear about annealing the cf nylon compared to for pla. thing is... cf nylon is still too expensive for most of us. so maybe something else like that greentec pro cf is a bit cheaper? since we have to anneal them whichever option is chosen. at least the greentec cf pro is more environmentally friendly. but is it as strong as the claims? also have you gotten a sample of the brand new nonoilen (=pla and phb mix). because that is also claiming to be a strong material too, whilst also entirely environmentally safe and biodegradable. at least for that same sort of prices this is a genuine extra feature makes it feel a better 'value' (not for us, but for nature). so is cf nylon really worth it (for fdm purpose) by comparison? this is a genuine question i want to know the answer for! and doesnt seem like anybody else can convincingly answer it
as for speedboat race, main casualty is the inter layer adhesion. so finding out about that is... important to put it into context. although maybe if you do anneal afterwards a speedbenchy then perhaps it doesnt matter? although annealingstep itself adds on a lot more of extra time. hehe
[added]
lol sorry i forgot to say something really important: there is this guy i know, and after finishing the print (in his same enclosed chamber) he then ramps up the temperature several times. for example 3 seperate times, starting about 60c and going up higher each time. ending at the highest annealing temp. maybe ending 100c or more. just whemever it makes the sense to stop cycling.
this ramping type of work hardening / annealing process is better, in particular for these enhanced 'high temp' pla types. so this is also the recommended way for those greentec pro cf, and the nonoilen, and the esun pla+. any enhanced pla. just something you needed to know about, if you are struggling for annealing pla. doing the ramping program is essential. it keeps a partial crystalinity and then the object does not melt and loose its shape. which was in your previous experiences for annealing pla. so please try this method in future. many thanks
@@AlexusMaximusDE That thing is a BEAST and the guy is really cool, always interacts with the viewers too.
It's always fascinating to see what the heck is the next physical limit he's gonna hit with that machine. At this point I'm thinking the plastic itself is close to being a limiting factor.
Good for improving prototyping with FFF, especially if it leads to printers/parts focused on consistent throughput without sacrificing quality.
@@AlexusMaximusDE 3 minutes incoming :)
What I love about Stefan is he discusses his own errors. I wish more people would behave this way.
A "5 minutes 3D Benchy" video might be more clickable but doesn't really teach anyone something. My goal is to fail, learn, repeat and eventually succeed. That's how the ones how want to learn something benefit the most!
That creep test is genius!
Thanks!
We have to thank you for this nice footage!
@@CNCKitchen eta on the video?
Very nifty test, but the type of creep on the printer bed is constant force. This creep test is constant strain. The bolt tension translates to a fixed compression. As the material experiences creep the force on the material will approach 0. An example experiment for a constant force test might be to hang a weight off of a sample instead.
@@ojhall3164 weight tests are good but, a creep test such as this one allows you to place the item wherever you like
40 seconds in and this is the most defeated sounding intro I've ever heard. You can do it Stefan! I believe in you
At the end now. You've learned so much in this video. I've picked up a lot too!
I don't have a 3D printer, but I enjoy the learning and entertainment
That "I failed" thumbnail too
Let us take a moment of silence for all those benchies that fell in the line of printing...
That "sunk" in the line of 3d printing
What is that intro music? Reqieum For A Dream, The Fountain? EDIT: Ahh Max Richter not Clint Mansell.
He reminded makers of two things: 1 if you're printing abs then use an enclosure
2. For better print quality use a silicon heat block sock
Not sure how you arrived at 1. At those speeds, you need every bit of cooling you can get, even for abs. It's pretty much printed faster than it can warp. An enclosure would only hurt.
Yes but clearly he saw a difference when he moved his printer to the basement. An enclosure would have solved that problem
Usually it is very important for ABS to be printed in a warm enclosure (that also keeps the nasty smell in a little), though for speed printing, that's exactly the wrong thing because you want to cool the material down as fast as possible. The problem with my basement was rather that the heating system wasn't properly able to cope with the lower temperatures.
He should probably use proper mounting hardware for his sock.
OH MAN I love the creep test concept. That is really cool.
like a hidden code on ps5...
hmmm... this makes me wonder if there should be a 'feed forward' control system for the nozzle temperature that takes the current extrusion rate into account. Basically preemptively increase the hotend power if there is a fast extrusion move in the near future.
That might be interesting, or DUET/RRF can uses Non-linear extrusions to compensate for that effect (M592).
This is in fact called feed forward, or "2 dof control" and shouldn't be hard to implement because you only need to add the feedforward term (theoretical power for melting and convection) to the feedback part (PID control for the error between set and actual temperature). If you only use feedback control (the way it's currently done), the true temperature will always "lag behind" the reference to some degree.
I prefer bang bang for the hot end control over PID. It doesn't work in Marlin though because it doesn't sample often enough. In my own firmware I sample very quickly so that close to the set point noise gives a small range of PWM over a fraction of a degree.
@@nophead Haha wow it's like talking to a celebrity, thanks for everything you've done for the community since I got into this hobby 10 years ago :-)
I think bang bang control is actually a great choice. PID just tends to work with most simple systems (and is more forgiving if you're slower than your system's dynamics) although it's certainly not the perfect controller for this type of system.
What I'd like to see also is a controller for the nozzle temperature of the plastics instead of the temperature of the NTC. With a thermal model of the hotend and plastics and an observer this should yield near-perfect results. Although it's probably not really worth the effort.
That's an interesting idea. Another way to think about it is the filament has a cooling effect on the hotend that is proportional to feed rate. So it only makes sense to counteract this cooling with equal and opposite heating from the hotend.
Normally this is handled lazily by a separate hotend temperature control PID loop but since heating happens slow and changes in extrusion rate happen fast, there is always some delay in the heater cartridges response. Also it takes some time for the thermistor to register that the hotend is cooling down before it can react.
Hi Stefan, I really appreciate the rigorous approach you take to testing different aspects of 3D printing. It must be very time consuming to test and record each variable and I am grateful to you for sharing your results with us.
For your creep testing, how high of a temp are you testing too? In most vorons enclosed the ambients can sit around 50c when printing ABS.
Noticing the layer shifting? Are you tweaking accel/decel values as well as IS
For replacing the collet, ya that part kinda sucks, i popped mine out too originally, best recommendation is install it BEFORE screwing both halves together so its sandwiched in place instead of pressing it in, seems to grab it a bit tighter. (or go with the direct feed toolhead cus 0.1 is out now )
"Increased" temperatures will, for the first round, be only 40°C to stay far away from any glass transition temperatures. Believe it or not but that already drastically changes the results!
after coffee i find my extrusion rate is greatly increased.
definitely a reduction in quality though
Can relate.
That's a lot of analysis to print a benchy in less than 10min ! Keep the good work!
I'm a 3D printing neophyte compared to all the testing you perform, but the two things that have solved layer shifts for me have been putting loctite on the motor pulley grub screws, and increasing belt tension. I'm enjoying how you are sharing your progress on this challenge.
Might be interesting to see some different timed ones, like a 30 min, 20 min. benchy etc. in the long run.
Good point - especially what and who they compare. Not everyone has a setup to go to 10 minutes so something slower might give them a good baseline for their setup.
I'm so excited for a series on high speed printing!
The intro music and panning over failed benchy boats was an immediate Thumbs Up from me :P :D
Thanks!
This feels like your boss fight! All the research you've put in for years culminating in the speed benchy challenge. Good luck and thanks for sharing your findings!
Beyond high volume extruding, I think high speed kinematics would be a cool series... Basically increasing print speeds and trying to determine what needs to be improved
Stefan, your stuff just makes me smile, Your either a savant or an engineer, maybe even a research scientist, cus this stuff is just sensational.
Steffan - The Mosquito hotend is amazing! I've been using it for around 7-8 months now. I have some of my own designs exclusively up on thingiverse, search "blood drive ender 3", my mod is purposed around a linear rail converted Ender 3. I've been able to achieve 25mm/3 flow rate with PETG, PLA has more difficulties.
Somethings I'd recommend - You should be using boron nitride paste that you can get from Slice Engineering. Infact I think this would be a good test to conduct on its own for your channel.
The thermistor and heater core should be coated with it for maximum heat transfer. Also, the threads in the Mosquito hotblock as well as the threads on your nozzle should be coated as well. It is significant, I believe. Additionally, nickel plated brass nozzles will further your heat transferrence even more.
thats the kind of Raw information i like
Hi Stefan, your scientific approach to 3D printing is just on another level. Thank you for sharing with us hours of testing and valuable pieces of information.
I can’t wait for the creep tests. Love to see ASA vs abs and even annealed pla.
Thank you so much Stefan! With your channel I finally fixed all problems of my homemade mini 3d printer! ❤️
Love this vid as I've been looking to building a voron 2.4. Very informative to have you answer questions I hadn't even thought of yet.
the test for creep is brilliant! i'm really curious to see your progression on this project!
Oh boy, I've been looking forward to the creep testing for years! I know it's got to be a pretty massive amount of work, so I really appreciate you doing it for us!
I also LOVE the speed printing trend!
I think the most interesting thing about this speed printing challenge is that it looks like we've reached a point where the mechanical structure of the system is able to better handle the speeds than the other components.
CoreXY and a lot of the clever implementations of it have really brought the general structure of 3D printers to a new level.
Fantastic video! These Voron videos are great. If the Prusa XL wasn't around the corner I would build a 2.4 yesterday, it seems so great. Thank you for taking us on this journey of insane speed.
Always glad to see the Voron 0 out.
Accuracy, print stability and consistency - not speed is what I am trying to achieve. After I master those - I will probably work on some speed improvements. Thanks for showing us your methodology - you teach me (us) a lot when you do that - so we can do it for our setups.
Again, Thank You!
I use socks for exactly that reason. My MK2.5s won't keep heat steady without one.
I do tend to attach it with a few dabs of high temp silicone. Keeps it from falling off unintentionally.
I'm loving this series!
Great video as always 👍
I love your experience and systematic approach 👍
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with all of us 👍😀
OMG I'm so excited for results as well.
Tiny nit pick - the flow graphs such as at 6:23 list all of the traces as "NF", I guess Normal Flow, and none as "HF", so that there are two traces for each temperature listed as "NF".
you´r always doing such amazing tests, keep it up!
Im in love with Stefans brain.
I love the artful display of the failed benchies - definitely highlighting the issues is a fantastic way to help us non-professionals feel less bad about our mangled prints :D
Just awesome, i appreciate every second of your time you invest into your great video content. *chapeau* ❤
Good job, Stephan. All your tests are very interesting.
Excellent video Stefan. Thorough and scientific as always 👍. I learn a lot from you so thank you😎
Seems an excellent way to measure creep. Looking forward to the results.
The deformation test looks awesome, very clever!
Thanks for the info. Good that you tell us about your failures. This is very valuable.
All of your wonderful videos are an introduction to methods and theory of mechanical engineering. Please keep up the good work.
Very interesting video, thanks as you answered my question in the video on why the filament starts to skip. 👍 I’m a new to 3D printing, I spent some time in the oil field as a machinist and can see it’s no different lol it all takes time practice and patients. Thanks again
Awesome!!
Comparing Polymaker materials TDS, PA12-CF has almost double the melt index of ABS, and becasue of the fibers, it will hold its shape up to very high temperatures. Maybe a filled PA is a good candidate for the fast benchy :)
That's not a fail, that is modern art!
Love that testing procedure
I enjoyed this video. Thanks for all the analysis and lessons. One note, for your extrusion rate graphs, the legend says NF for all plots, even those that are for the high flow heat break.
Thanks for sharing your proces, really helpfull in understanding how a 3D printer works.
I will build a Voron 0 because of your excellent videos. :-)
a few things.
- the nylon is only going to waste your time and make you furious in the long run. Id personally suggest the use of ASA as its less prone to degrading from the hydrocarbons that will eventually leak out of the cheap idlers. But abs is fine, as it creeps very little. Theres a reason nylon usually has a ton of glass in it (not the dust you see in filament), the long strands reduce the creep over time. Its also almost never used in shear or tension unless its molded with a glass content of 40%+
- invest in a spool of MG94 abs, its a base resin by sabic, a few vendors sell it
- interpolate off, spreadcycle, and run the motors at 80% of peak current
- stick a box fan in front of the printer once it hits layer 5
this should get you down to 8 minutes, assuming the frame is square. the rest youll have to figure out on your own
we look forward to seeing an official submission on our leaderboards
I'm curious about the annealing of the nylon-carbon fiber. A video about how annealing changes the nylons properties, similar to your PLA video, would be very appreciated.
I wonder if maybe the reduction of creep is just a result of drying the nylon, and might revert again? I've noticed with my own pa-cf prints, that while they start of very rigid, they become more flexible over time again as the printed part absorbs water.
the v0.1 update really improved my print speeds and quality
Also, yes, silicone socks are great and pretty much essential imo. My temperature goes all over the place without it on my x1. Just bought another one. Thanks for the reminder and great video as always. Resubscribed after 2 years.
Sorry, you mentioned this later in the video as i continue to watch. My bad.
Great informative video as always! Thanks Mr S
Stefan, you’re the best. This content 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I think the magnum is slower because there is more friction in the system due to the high viscosity of molten plastic. Also bowden tube friction will be more of an issue at high feed rates.
Could you do a graph of extruder stepper motor power consumption? Could shed some light on the situation.
Keep it up. Always very informative!
Awesome video Stefan! I can't wait to see the next videos in this series!
I've learned more experimentation techniques from one of Stefan's videos than my entire undergrad in physics. So much good stuff.
Great to hear!
Best video I was just thinking about getting into this stuff
I had thermal runaway problems with long fast movements on my MK3 too when i relocated it to the basement. Capping the max fan speed to 80% solved it without having a heater next to the printer or adding a sock.
normal flow hotends:
E3d v6
E3d v6 titanium heatbreak
E3d v6 bi-metallic heatbreak
Phaetus dragon hotend (if you can still buy one)
stock ender 3 hotend
stock ender 3 + bi-metallic heatbreak
Slice copperhead
Slice Mosquito
High flow hotends:
e3d volcano
e3d volcano + titanium heatbreak
e3d volcano + bi-metallic heatbreak
e3d supervolcano
e3d supervolcano + titanium heatbreak
e3d supervolcano + bi-metallic heatbreak
Phaetus Dragon High-flow
Slice Mosquito Magnum (maybe magnum+ if available)
Would also be interesting to see how different nozzle materials affect the flowrates, my guess is brass being in the middle, nickel plated coper being the highest flow, nozzleX being in the middle, hardened and stainless steel being lower flowrates.
furthermore, also seeing how thermal paste affects flowrate, and the power of the heater cartridge
You could try the Phaetus dragonfly HF HIC. It has a very large melt zone
Thank you for your hard work on this !
My pleasure!
5:38 You should change your graph description. In booth diagrams there are labeled as [Temperature] & NF. For Normal Flow it makes sense, but not for High Flow.
While rebuilding the voron, please check voron 0.1, which was released about 20 days ago. There is a direct drive extruder option as well as some extra/updated parts.
I'm building my Voron v0.0 and found quite usefull linear rail stoppers, for example. Plus more detailed manual
At around 12:02 and and 13:01 there is vapour coming out from the nozzle if i see it correctly. Due to very high latent heat of vaporasition of water, i suspect it might increase your heating load dramatically. Amazing work btw thank you :)
Good point as well and that also get's worse the higher the temperature is.
It makes sense, Stefan.
A sub-10' benchy is quite a big challenge. I didn't attempt it yet, not having finished to tune Klipper for my printer (not sure I'll attempt it, "speed contests" are not my bag).
What you may try, just as a comparison point, is an E3D Volcano hotend. As you said, if one wants to print fast, the filament must have enough time to melt. Volcano has a larger heatblock, so it might help. It could be interesting to compare how it performs alongside the Mosquito in the same context.
Also, depending on the filament material, adequate cooling is required. Don't know, maybe use a 5020 intead of a 5015. Something like that.
Just my 2 cent. ;)
Such thorough analysis!
As always, a ton of useful info here. Thanks!
Hi Stephan, as part of the rebuild, you may want to consider going to the V0.1, with a DD extruder that eliminates that collet issue.
0.1 also has a bunch of nice quality of life improvements and is easier to service.
Thanks for touching on the #SpeedBoatRace love to see it!
The video has some great information in it, the one thing i'm interested in is you're only testing the creep in compression but would the results be any different in tension?
Always love your videos!
Proper engineering, love it!
Love these Videos - great job!
I see nova hotend with 400mm/s and its insane :o
PLEASE MORE :D
Your work is awesome!
They print PLA at like 260 °C
fantastic work thank you
If you can, I would love to see how a Nova Hotend would work on the V0. I dont see too many people reviewing it and would love a proper review aswell. Thank you!!
Interesting video. I designed a heater sock and removable nozzle sock with a small air gap to reduce heat conduction. Easy to see the results with an IR camera or measure the mains power reduction.
Amazing stuff! And cool setup with the creep test - I'm looking forward to seeing the results :)
Instead of putting the printer in your basement, you should wait for Summer and put it on the attic ;)
great video, some lessons learnt here for sure
This makes me think about two things:
- heated chamber would help
- pre-heating filament would help (also useful for drying the filament or keeping it dry)
I'm really looking forward to your creep test.
Speed printing is becoming 3DPrinting's "extreme overclocking". I like it.
Replacing the 2 toothed idlers (at the ends of the X gantry) with bearing stacks, loosing belts, increasing current on the A/B motors, cooling them or upgrading to the V0.1 motors are things that helped me with better motion
Cool - I discovered the same thing with the sock within my PhD too. 🤓 Good job!
You got to study this in university? Jealous man
@@User-nc2lf Being more precily, had to, because it still was very difficult though.
@@jankohler562 What is your PhD today? Do you still 3d print yourself or was it mostly for educational purposes?
@@User-nc2lf Thank you for your interest. (^‿^) I researched creating metamaterials for high frequency components using FDM printing. Even though I finished my PhD I continued working on that topic, because it is so interesting. Let alone, I love the topic of 3D printing. Not a day goes by without me working or creating things with the 3D printer. This alone made it all worth it, even though it was very difficult.
Great content as always Stefan! Can you compare CF PETG to CF Nylon for your creep test?
Thumbs up on the creep test. Very interested to see the results for that.
8:29 - respect for not editing out the voice crack 😆
It's really awesome to see how things like temperature and extrusion speed affect what actually gets extruded. I'd like to see a printer firmware in the future that takes these things into account. For instance, increasing extrusion multiplier and hotend power with high extrusion speeds.
As someone with a 10 minute benchy in the #SpeedBoatRace, I can feel you pain and frustration.
On the heater, you have a point about the PID ruining the print. I have a Duet3D smart effector, with a Mosquito and a 50W heater. The LED indicator on the smart effector stays on during the print, constantly. Its full power ALL the time. This seems to be due to the extreme part cooling combined with the crazy extrusion rates.
I printed mine in ColorFabb NGEN, that has a ridiculously high flow rate (at least on paper, I have not tried doing all the extensive tests). I'm not a fan of the ABS smell, especially when doing that over temp printing.
Yesss, i really like if you try to push these printers. I already was curious about your voron! Just got a corexy myself 😊. Not that fancy, but i like to thinker with it, so like a little project.
Is the creep test still ongoing? I'm really interested in the long term results :)
Your struggle is our blessing! Keep failing and sharing please!
After you showed the V0 on the meltzone, i decided i definitely need one. now i have one. :-D
Great to hear! Are you happy with it?
@@CNCKitchen I'm mostly happy, the FORMBOT kit from aliexpress gives you the bare minimum of pieces to get it built. I made the mistake of plrinting the parts in PLA with the idea of re-printing them on the voron in ASA... that was a challenge! If i was to build it again i would make the 2020Vslot variant with absolutely NO M2 SCREWS :-)
Stefan, for the parts - it will be really great to get another filament comparison. Specifically the Priline Polycarbonate Carbon Fiber with the Nylon Carbon Fiber and PETG CF variants. I found the Priline quite reasonably priced, easy to print and seems to be quite rigid but not sure of its actual mechanical strength - it will also be really great if you can compare annealing vs not as the printed parts can be annealed with 100 degrees oven without deformation and supposed to help quite a bit. I am printing parts for my printer but dont have actual proof this stuff is really living to the theory. Thanks!
Nice video
About that flow I would try bondtech cht nozzle maybe that will increase flow
Hi Stefan, I also had a lot of unexplained layer shifts in the beginning when printing fast. I checked the motion system (grub screws, belts etc) and it ended up being not enough cooling of my A/B (also called X/Y) stepper _drivers_. This does end up in the Klipper-logs, but gets buried in other things. Good luck with your Voron adventure and thanks for the fun & informative vids!