Schiff: How To Use Trills For Expression
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ย. 2014
- Andras Schiff's Piano Masterclass on how to use trills to emphasis expression in Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. The full 170 minute masterclass is available at
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I heard him play op. 109 live last night.
It was amazing.
Sir András Schiff: IMO, atop the Best Pianist ever.
Grateful thanks to Andràs Schiff, the Masterclass Media Foundation, and TH-cam. I learn a tremendous amount every time. And Mr Schiff is indeed a master of musicianship.
Those curtains are awesome
Sebbie Tirath Thanks
You are good, you are superb, the way you talk, the way you play the piano, the way you fascinate listeners, I would have liked you as a teacher, I would have been a great musician. I am older now (67) and still am hypnotized by your skills. You are dammed good. Every day I am practising Bach on my piano, a Bechstein, and you are the shadow by TH-cam to give me instructions and patience, feed and power to continue.You are good man. you are the Sunshine of knowledge about so many musicians. I have learned so much due to your way of communication, your way of perception and talk.You are superb.Thank you. I do thank you.Norbert
Amazing analysis and playing. Emotion/fused with structure/harmony. I just take exception to the blanket statement that Baroque and Classical trills are "decorative." They are indeed expressive, as Mozart was in particular allied to the opera.
Actually there's an expressive usage of trills in Bach's English suite no.6 Gigue.
ramatganski shmanski Aha wonderful! So much in music owes its origin to Bach!
thumb up!
Rama, You are right ! in fact Bach doesn't use ornaments without an express purpose, for the purpose of expressing powerful musical structures.
The prelude in g minor from WTC book 1 has 4 long trills that, in my opinion, also are used for expression. Listen to Schiff's recording and you'll know what I mean
Trills are the wonderment of mechanical wave without surprise, yet still hidden.
The decay of sound on a harpsichord is/was so fast that the trill gave extended life to a note that would otherwise have been "dead" by the next beat. And the trill, and thus the note, could continue to sound at the composer's discretion.
Good example of this particular use of the trill would be Invention #4.
It would be helpful to get the distinctions he's making between Beethoven's approach and Bach's rather than his use of words.
Very interesting analysis, but when the trill comes in the right hand from 5:10, it should sound continuously without all these interruptions. For expressive, fluent trills, I very much prefer Claudio Arrau...
I entirely agree!
Die Trillerkette in dieser Schlussvariation zu unterbrechen ist eine rein technische Maßnahme und keine musikalische, um die 'stars' sicher zu treffen. Triller in Beethovens Spätwerk dienen entweder der ätherischen Verklärung oder der dramatisierenden Impulsgebung. Hier ist wohl das Letztere gemeint: auf einem schnellen rotierenden ununterbrochen sich bewegenden Triller haben die Einzeltöne, die wie gewichtige Funken klingen, die auf die Erde fallen, eine kolossale Wirkung. Ich würde diese Einzeltöne auch nicht 'Sterne' nennen, die für Schiff wahrscheinlich durch die technische Erleichterung so wirken mögen, aber doch eher schwach leuchtend. Manchmal bringt allerdings das vermeintlich Schwierigere im Ergebnis eine größere Wirkung mit sich, weil sie dadurch erst entstehen kann.
Arrau als profundes Beispiel für die richtige Ausführung des langen Trillers am Schluss der Sonate zu nennen, kann ich nur bestätigen, denn ich habe sie meisterhaft von ihm live gehört.
berlinzerberus Exactly! There are similar ethereal trills in the famous Arietta (opus 111), where the right hand has to play them continuously, combined with the theme, while the left hand is playing figuration -- not at all easy. I have never heard that passage more beautifully than in Arrau's version.
Sorry to say, but when a well-known concert pianist gives a Masterclass about trills in Beethoven's Sonatas, I expect him to have overcome any technical difficulties... it really sounds a bit clumsy this way!
pianopera
Anything a pianist of that level does is a conscious choice and not a technical difficulty he didn't outpass... Understanding why he did that choice would be the interresting thing.
Dechuoubenii If it's a conscious choice, it's a very bad one. From 5:54 you can see clearly that his trill technique in his right hand is not sufficient to play a fluent, uninterrupted trill. It should be played with the fingering 1-2.
pianopera he is one of the best beethoven piano player in the world! he know all 32 (and hundreds more pices) by heart and never make mistakes.. its not difficult to him
Schiff’s critics are engaging in semantic nit picking. The distinction Schiff is making is perfectly clear. Ornamental vs. expressive is not a perfect dichotomy, but I wish more native speakers of English had Schiff’s command of the language. Of course every note should be expressive of something! Consider BWV 775. The trills are there primarily to sustain a single note on a harpsichord. Gould does not play them at all, as being unnecessary on a modern piano. Dinnerstein slows the piece down and plays them in a beautifully romantic way that would be impossible on a harpsichord. In the end, it’s the music that matters, not the imperfect way in which we talk about it.
What sonata was this?
Shayeste Berahman Beeethoven Sonata No.30, Op. 109
What's the name of the sonata? 1st one
Sonata op 109 in E major
He only plays this sonata btw
Please State ....The EXACT Name of Beethoven Sonata....
I am interested in it for TWO 2 Main Reasons.
Reason A) It has some Boogie Woogie Type Hand Configurations in Parts.
Reason B) I want to Explore...The Shining Stars Effect you talk about.
Please Respond
Hi there, It's Beethoven's Sonata no.32, Thanks for watching!
The Masterclass Media Foundation No.30 Op.109, not No.32
+Images Oubliées because op111 has some boogie woogie feel in the second movement that's why they misunderstood it
My Piano Favourites it Is the 30 piano sonata
As Jason said, check out op. 111 for some really awesome boogie woogie time.
I like the curtains
haha, me too
What piece is it??
Beethoven's piano sonata no 30
chio glenn thanks a lot
Trills in Baroque didn't have any expressive quality?! Is this what he really thinks? Hard to believe
"Trill in Baroque and Early classical music has always been decorative" ????? That is the wrongest think that one can ever say! With all respect Andras, apoggiatura and trill (written by the composer or improvised by the interpreter) in early music are the most important and the most expressive elements of an ornamented "canto" and the absolute first thing a "baroque" player or singer has to learn and study! It is not "only a pleasing/beautiful effect" The dissonant nature of these ornaments creates tension and a variety of great dramatic effects! In one word EXPRESSION. You certainly know it well and you do it perfectly when you play Bach or Scarlatti! Why do you say the opposite?
I think what he meant was: Trill in Baroque and early classical can be neglected, but the music would still exist, since ornaments are added upon the base notes. But if you neglect the trill in Beethoven's music, the music would lose its essence, and cease to exist.
sirdicaudore. I couldn't agree with YOU MORE !!! I expressly came to this video because I wondered what Schiff could possibly have to say about ornamentation, since for the last twenty years or so he has abused them so badly when playing Bach ! Now I know the reason ! He views them as decoration ! Bach includes at the beginning of Anna Magdalena notebook a table of ornaments, and he usually specifies them, in each piece, but as the last and greatest exponent of Baroque counterpoint, he came out of an improvisatory tradition, where composers who performed needed to know how to use them. For Bach they are a very important part of 'sound', voice leading and maintenance of a cogent harmonic structure. So many times Bach uses ornaments to avoid open fifths or octaves and sometimes parallel fifths and octaves, when a stress point is required in the music, but it would spoil clean melodic voice leading to use another harmony. Schiff's superfluous use of them , including wrong ornaments when needed, and lots of extras when completely unneeded, have made it difficult for me to listen to him anymore. Clearly he 'was' (perhaps IS) a top Bach interpreter, and a very intelligent man, with a great knowledge of music,...but sometimes too much knowledge hides simple TRUTH,... sorry Sergio, judge me and others for the merits of our ideas. To those much blessed ,.. much is required... this includes Schiff,.. please bear the mantle of maestro with humility. In Bach virtually nothing is superfluous, which doesn't mean the ornaments are cast in stone,... as many great performers have proven!
Interesting point. Thank you Geopholus.
And, of course, it was strictly verboten until 1750 to be at all expressive when wooing, worshiping, or showing off :^).
I admire the "Besserwisser" here. What bull.... ! It is really amazing how clever the critics are. I haven't got the ears to hear all this. For me it is more important to enjoy the happy atmosphere which Schiff creates. There are different interpreters, some are great in their technical performance others - even those which do not master difficult passages - can bring you unending joy.
I never thought I would ever have anything to say to Mr. Schiff that I disagree with, but I do. Ornaments, graces, etc. in the Baroque Era were used for both rhythmic and harmonic interest. Very early Baroque, and before, ornaments were used melodically, melismatically. The Classic Era also featured ornaments for both harmonic and rhythmic interest, however, playing on the beat caused an apoggiatura effect, which allowed for dissonances to be played in acceptable ways. Sorry, but I have done extensive studies in this area.
+jongleurette Yes but a faster, more decorative trill in the lower register would be a sea of unpalatable mess for the ears...would it not? The interpretation is that beethoven couldn't have wanted a trill any faster than, what sounds like triplet time per beat, as this tempo has just enough uneasiness but with expressive qualities, without drowning the right hand melody too much.
Yes, I understand what you are pointing out. However, my comment was directed at Schiff's statement that ornamentation had less meaning in earlier music.
Aah o.k, got you!!...my mistake! It makes sense with that conversation, yes. Thanks.
jongleurette : And you imagine that András Schiff has not done extensive studies in this area?!
so i'm no expert, but there's no way he's screwing up those trills so flagrantly (from about 5:50) by accident. it's strange that he doesn't just do it, though...? you get the feeling he's concentrating more on his words than his playing.
I think that he does this to accentuate the notes played with the pinky. He must be able to play this without screwing up the trills, he's certainly technically capable of it.
There's a difference between a lecture and a concert performance... this is the former...
This is not a performance; it’s a teaching session which we are fortunate enough to experience.
less steinway more bosendorfer plz
Goldberg var 28... should the Bach be played as free trills? No pianist would dare 🤔
Pianopera is correct. His trill is too measured in the RH. But interesting analysis. He is a deep thinker much like Barenboim.
no thrill in the trill
I think I might understand what he's trying to say about the difference between this Beethovian trill and other ornamental trills. His use of the word "expressive" is definitely questionable in my opinion, as well as his historical proclamation. Think of the 'metric acceleration' to a trill in Bach's famous G minor prelude from WTC Book 1, or the trill in the D minor two part invention. I do not think Schiff is stupid, though, I wonder if he's just searching his English vocabulary. I have also accidentally tripped over proper word choice when trying to speak, ad-hoc, in front of people, about a piece of music.
How nice of you: You don’t think Schiff is stupid. What a kind person you are. Wow.
what is that insufferable noise in the back ground? creaking chairs?
+martin8uq Must be a thrill
"The trill in baroque and classical music didn't have any expressive quality"....What??? I didn't expect to hear something so wrong.
ah, what does this Schiff guy know, right?? LOL )))
Hey! Leopold Poldi! You are a moron!
Sure, because violins can't sustain notes
yes I found this very strange. countless moments when trills are highly expressive, not merely decorative.
That's the only part of Schiff's video that I took exception with... Trills are expressive in Mozart, for example--as he emulated the opera.. and a convincing opera singer would think of them as fast MELODY. Same for pianists and other instrumentalists.
Chopin's trills were less decorative than Beethoven's :-/
Brandon Nobles I agree
...because in Chopins music trills are are inexorably intertwined in the musical structure
can you cite an example so I can grasp better your idea
Isn't he genius..?
Going from quavers to triplets to semi quavers is my least favourite concept
666 likes yikes