@@TheStormkeep I know, just wanted to poke a little fun The lists at the end were interesting I had played with some lists, including a heavy thunderer build, but I had forgotten about the Lord Ordinator's +1 to hit aura for war machines
Just considered this So, my Knights Excelsior 10xProtector block is, for whatever reason, in combat with an Ironclad containing 15 Thunderers on the inside Now, they are not disembarked. They are embarked on the Ironclad But, said Ironclad is in melee with the Protectors Embarked units do not count for contesting objectives Well, what about for the Knights-Excelsior stormhost ability? The Thunderers can technically fight in melee, since they are on the Ironclad which is in melee with the Protectors. Can I use the Stormhost ability to say "well, those 15 thunderers on the Ironclad outnumber my protectors"? ((Granted, I should likely just use "Unleash thy Hatred" and have Starsoul maces blast the Ironclad apart with mortal wounds, but I digress)) Seems like an odd rules ambiguity. If they can fight, and I target them with my protectors, I would think that I could use the Stormhost ability, even though the Thunderers are embarked.
Embarked units are on the battlefield for all rule purposes, so you would be able to trigger the KE ability. There is a specific rule that says they cannot contest objectives while embarked.
So I'm going to have to weigh in on your tier list summary, because I feel that you are massively overvaluing some things and undervaluing others. In more detail: Thunderers are not S tier. You are so hyped over the moon for thunderers, and the 4+ rally, that you are repeatedly overlooking their GLARING weakness. 12" range. This means that to get in and actually shoot things, you are by definition within charge range. And they really, really don't have the damage to clear an opposing army, which means that they are going to get charged back and removed. There is a build out there that is putting 30 thunderers in the opponents face, but any sort of screening is going to shut the doors to that build simply because they can't get in range to actually hit the targets that you need to hit. On top of that, they can't kill anything in melee, which means that you are going to have to rely on shooting or retreating to get out of combat, which makes that 4+ rally even harder to use. After play experience with them, I would stick them as a B tier unit, not A and definitely not S. Going with that, the Khemist. Definitely not S tier. His buffs are vital for blocks of thunderers, but without thunderers being S tier he certainly isn't. The restrictions about working only outside of a boat add to this and make him even harder to effectively use - especially if you are trying to run a mobile shooting platform in a frigate, and having to get out to shoot starts to really cost you a lot of CP fast. Finally, spell in a bottle is pretty terrible, and is only really good for all in soulscream bridge alpha lists - attempting anything else just leads to it backfiring on you. Like thunderers, falls into B tier. The Ironclad... your glory days have passed. This hulking behemoth does subpar damage, the lack of save stacking available means it dies fast as well, and it frankly is overcosted for what it actually brings to the table. It really only has a role if you are running blocks of 15 thunderers that can't fit in a frigate, which again relegates it to that all in thunderer alpha list. In every other case - take a frigate instead. I would stick it in B tier with the thunderers. Endrinriggers meanwhile are S tier. They are cheap, they are fast, they do good damage, they heal boats. Unless you are going all in on thunderer alpha, they are making your list (and even all in alpha lists that I make are still running a squad to go with the ironclad). Endrinmaster with dirigible suit is C tier. Quite frankly, he is too expensive and doesn't bring enough for what he does. 95% of the time I put him in a list, I end up cutting him to free up points for something else. Brokk meanwhile is B tier. The fact of the matter is that he brings good shooting to a list, and his +1 attacks on the charge bumps up a unit of 6 riggers to deal similar damage to barak zon riggers, but you do that while getting all the benefits of extra CP and not having to take ex grundstock for a brick of thunderers. He doesn't go in every list, but it is certainly viable to run him and still be quite effective. Finally, the Endrinmaster is A tier. Yes, the one on foot. Quite frankly, he is cheap enough to afford to bring him in a list (unlike the dirigible suit), he can hit some things in melee, but most importantly he makes riggers battleline. Considering that riggers should actually be considered S tier, getting them to fill some battleline slots means that you aren't wasting space on MSU thunderer squads or even more squads of arkanauts, this puts the endrinmaster firmly into the A tier.
A thorough analysis, but we will have to agree to disagree! We believe Thunderers to be an excellent unit despite some of their weapons being limited to only 12"
Yep Krondspine is a fine pick for KO armies You may have to shift some points around to make it fit perfectly, but with everything in this army is so cheap that doesn't seem to be a huge problem
I have watched five reviews of the new KO tome now. And while they all agreed that Nar and Zon are top tier subfactions and Thryng is a bottom tier one, I have heard completely different opinion on the other three subfactions. Those three have been bouncing all over the place in these reviews.
Heyo! It's my list they're talking about and the reason is ~flexibility~. Sometimes I want the thunderers to go to a different place than the boat and the bridge allows me to do that whereas I'm otherwise limited by the boat's mobility. Sometimes the boat is engaged and I really need the ability to threaten multiple parts of the board at the same time without relying on a single model that can be belakor'd or otherwise slowed down.
Gotrek would do great. OBR are slow and rely on high damage but low volume attacks, so Gotrek is going to laugh their damage away with his 3+ ward and reducing all damage to 1
@@mrk20003 Nope, they are a relatively low attack army with high damage values (which all get reduced to 1) and there are no more rerolls. The only high attack units are Mortek Guard and they are too slow yo threaten you
@@mrk20003 Depends on their list and the battleplan and all sorts of other factors, but in general you should focus on the bigger units first (Stalkers, Harvester) and leave the Mortek Guard until later. They can only move 7" then charge, so if you stay 18" away (your shooting range) they are unlikely to ever threaten you (11" charge at best) If they are playing Petrifex Elite the Stalkers will have a -1 damage effect, so don't waste any Damage 2 or higher weapons into them unless you need to
Love your reviews! You don't just read the rules, but discuss actual in-game application, that's amazing!
Thanks, glad you like them! More coming soon :)
Love the quick review. Thanks guys!!!
Glad you liked it!
"Quick" 2 hour review
=P
Still under 3 hours, like the Tzeentch one
Great review though!
If we went any quicker it would just be a unit tier list!
@@TheStormkeep I know, just wanted to poke a little fun
The lists at the end were interesting
I had played with some lists, including a heavy thunderer build, but I had forgotten about the Lord Ordinator's +1 to hit aura for war machines
Just considered this
So, my Knights Excelsior 10xProtector block is, for whatever reason, in combat with an Ironclad containing 15 Thunderers on the inside
Now, they are not disembarked. They are embarked on the Ironclad
But, said Ironclad is in melee with the Protectors
Embarked units do not count for contesting objectives
Well, what about for the Knights-Excelsior stormhost ability? The Thunderers can technically fight in melee, since they are on the Ironclad which is in melee with the Protectors.
Can I use the Stormhost ability to say "well, those 15 thunderers on the Ironclad outnumber my protectors"? ((Granted, I should likely just use "Unleash thy Hatred" and have Starsoul maces blast the Ironclad apart with mortal wounds, but I digress))
Seems like an odd rules ambiguity. If they can fight, and I target them with my protectors, I would think that I could use the Stormhost ability, even though the Thunderers are embarked.
Embarked units are on the battlefield for all rule purposes, so you would be able to trigger the KE ability.
There is a specific rule that says they cannot contest objectives while embarked.
So I'm going to have to weigh in on your tier list summary, because I feel that you are massively overvaluing some things and undervaluing others. In more detail:
Thunderers are not S tier. You are so hyped over the moon for thunderers, and the 4+ rally, that you are repeatedly overlooking their GLARING weakness. 12" range. This means that to get in and actually shoot things, you are by definition within charge range. And they really, really don't have the damage to clear an opposing army, which means that they are going to get charged back and removed. There is a build out there that is putting 30 thunderers in the opponents face, but any sort of screening is going to shut the doors to that build simply because they can't get in range to actually hit the targets that you need to hit. On top of that, they can't kill anything in melee, which means that you are going to have to rely on shooting or retreating to get out of combat, which makes that 4+ rally even harder to use. After play experience with them, I would stick them as a B tier unit, not A and definitely not S.
Going with that, the Khemist. Definitely not S tier. His buffs are vital for blocks of thunderers, but without thunderers being S tier he certainly isn't. The restrictions about working only outside of a boat add to this and make him even harder to effectively use - especially if you are trying to run a mobile shooting platform in a frigate, and having to get out to shoot starts to really cost you a lot of CP fast. Finally, spell in a bottle is pretty terrible, and is only really good for all in soulscream bridge alpha lists - attempting anything else just leads to it backfiring on you. Like thunderers, falls into B tier.
The Ironclad... your glory days have passed. This hulking behemoth does subpar damage, the lack of save stacking available means it dies fast as well, and it frankly is overcosted for what it actually brings to the table. It really only has a role if you are running blocks of 15 thunderers that can't fit in a frigate, which again relegates it to that all in thunderer alpha list. In every other case - take a frigate instead. I would stick it in B tier with the thunderers.
Endrinriggers meanwhile are S tier. They are cheap, they are fast, they do good damage, they heal boats. Unless you are going all in on thunderer alpha, they are making your list (and even all in alpha lists that I make are still running a squad to go with the ironclad).
Endrinmaster with dirigible suit is C tier. Quite frankly, he is too expensive and doesn't bring enough for what he does. 95% of the time I put him in a list, I end up cutting him to free up points for something else.
Brokk meanwhile is B tier. The fact of the matter is that he brings good shooting to a list, and his +1 attacks on the charge bumps up a unit of 6 riggers to deal similar damage to barak zon riggers, but you do that while getting all the benefits of extra CP and not having to take ex grundstock for a brick of thunderers. He doesn't go in every list, but it is certainly viable to run him and still be quite effective.
Finally, the Endrinmaster is A tier. Yes, the one on foot. Quite frankly, he is cheap enough to afford to bring him in a list (unlike the dirigible suit), he can hit some things in melee, but most importantly he makes riggers battleline. Considering that riggers should actually be considered S tier, getting them to fill some battleline slots means that you aren't wasting space on MSU thunderer squads or even more squads of arkanauts, this puts the endrinmaster firmly into the A tier.
A thorough analysis, but we will have to agree to disagree! We believe Thunderers to be an excellent unit despite some of their weapons being limited to only 12"
And would Krondspine also be an option instead of Gotrek? Thx guys
Yep Krondspine is a fine pick for KO armies
You may have to shift some points around to make it fit perfectly, but with everything in this army is so cheap that doesn't seem to be a huge problem
I have watched five reviews of the new KO tome now. And while they all agreed that Nar and Zon are top tier subfactions and Thryng is a bottom tier one, I have heard completely different opinion on the other three subfactions. Those three have been bouncing all over the place in these reviews.
Awesome! Thx so much. One question: why does list number 6 (Gotrek) need the bridge? Can’t the thunderers just go inside the boat? 👍🙏
Heyo! It's my list they're talking about and the reason is ~flexibility~. Sometimes I want the thunderers to go to a different place than the boat and the bridge allows me to do that whereas I'm otherwise limited by the boat's mobility. Sometimes the boat is engaged and I really need the ability to threaten multiple parts of the board at the same time without relying on a single model that can be belakor'd or otherwise slowed down.
What kind of list would you recommend against new OBR? Krondspine/Gotrek?
Gotrek would do great. OBR are slow and rely on high damage but low volume attacks, so Gotrek is going to laugh their damage away with his 3+ ward and reducing all damage to 1
@@TheStormkeep can’t the Mortek increase their attacks like crazy + reroll spell etc? All damage 1
@@mrk20003 Nope, they are a relatively low attack army with high damage values (which all get reduced to 1) and there are no more rerolls. The only high attack units are Mortek Guard and they are too slow yo threaten you
@@TheStormkeep Would you then try to shoot the mortek with the boats/thunderers? Thx guys, this really helps.
@@mrk20003 Depends on their list and the battleplan and all sorts of other factors, but in general you should focus on the bigger units first (Stalkers, Harvester) and leave the Mortek Guard until later. They can only move 7" then charge, so if you stay 18" away (your shooting range) they are unlikely to ever threaten you (11" charge at best)
If they are playing Petrifex Elite the Stalkers will have a -1 damage effect, so don't waste any Damage 2 or higher weapons into them unless you need to
How to counter kharadron overlord by stormcast
Maybe a tiny bit of that in there 🤏