To me it was pretty clear that Joel saying he would do it all over again in the final flashback was about as close to an "I love you" that we would get.
It's like him saying that no matter what he lost or what he will loose in the process, it doesn't matter. He got to spend time with her. He got another chance at being a father. He found something worth living for and he gave everything to make it last. So yeah.. it's his "I love you".
i think ellie did the same to dina. she loves dina but she cannot choose not to leave. but shes doing it for her so she cant cause any more grief and pain or harm to dina and jj with her insomnia and nightmares.
@@TheGamingEcstasy Am I the only one who also thought about Riley words from left behind during that scene “we fight, for every second we get to spend with each other, whether it's two minutes or two days we don't give that up”. Joel knows he's not a good person for what he has done but he'll do it again if that means spending even one more day with Ellie.
I think it’s interesting that Abby is saved because of Ellie’s need for vengeance. If Ellie doesn’t go off and try to kill Abby then Abby and Lev don’t get saved from the Rattlers. It’s a reverse of the first game. Joel does a bad thing out of love, whereas Ellie does a good thing out of hate. That was a very good use of irony.
I just finished the game last night. That ending, that scene, was so powerful. Note that when she was so ready to kill Abby she had her FIRST non-death memory flash of Joel since leaving Seattle. And we then see that full memory, where Ellie says to him "I don't know if I can forgive you for what you did...but I'm willing to try". And THAT is what she did with Abby. She took that moment with Joel, that final conversation she had with him, and did to Abby what she was willing to do to Joel. SO GOOD. The ending had sadness to it, but in the end I was so proud of Ellie. I see hope in the future for her.
@@stephensporman8206 Ahhh... But your dad would have deserved it because higher beings were playing the guy who flamethrew your dad to save a girl and doom humanity, and those higher beings have a blind attachment to that person. So if some dimwitted higher beings start playing you on your quest for revenge, be prepared to die a million deaths cause they hate you.
@@DevilDriverMGO To save one girl and let the world be the way it is so all other people can suffer the fates they'll suffer in that world? You know there are other children in this world, right? And because of Joel, they'll continue to live in this world. All people. And all stories. That's what the whole game is about. That's why it's littered with notes left by people telling a little bit about their story and how they're still trying to cling on to their humanity. That's why we get to see the other side. That's why they've gone to such lengths to make the enemies seem real in gameplay. It all feeds back into the fact that regardless of what they've done, these are all human beings trying to survive. Some go down to some awful places and become terrible people, but even still, they're people. The game asks you, are you willing to become a terrible person to get revenge? All of the people mad that Ellie didn't kill Abby kinda scare me. Abby literally loses everyone she knows and loves except one person she just met and then she becomes a slave for months and is left to die for possibly days. If on your quest for revenge you find out the person you've been after has been reduced to that and you still want to kill them. Then you're a terrible fucking person. Ellie's a terrible fucking person, but ultimately, she had to save what's left of her humanity.
The loss of the reconciliation was absolutely part of the fuel that drove Ellie's vengence. Any flash back to Joel wasn't just a reminder of him, it was a reminder that she never got to tell him she forgave him.
@@johnluvsluna But she still didnt avenge him. Even though once again she went through hell got stabbed by a tree and had the kill right there in front of her.
I feel Ellie felt powerless. She was there but powerless to prevent Joels death. When she first faced Abby in the theatre she loses and is powerless to avenge Joel (or Jessie or Tommy) and can only plead for Dina's life. The difference for Abby is this time she listens thanks to her relationship with Lev and she spares them. I feel that is her redemption. But Ellie is still left powerless. It's only when Ellie finally defeats Abby and has the power to kill her she is able to choose not to. The tragedy is the cost to everyone involved. The irony is if she'd been able to let it go and stay with Dina at the farm Abby and Lev would have died on the pillars.
Why would she leave the farm anyways? And why did Tommy do a 180 to try and make her leave? Also why did Tommy leave before Ellie at the beginning of the game lol, he knew she was going regardless. Why hinder the both of you like that? Also he didn't even want to go. And sorry, Abby not killing Ellie after almost relishing in the thought of killing a pregnant woman, isn't enough redemption for me. According to your logic, this whole game was a dominance play on both sides, and Ellie gave up everything to so she could be superior. Also what exactly in your opinion is stopping Ellie from killing abby? The cycle of violence? Why endulge throughout the whole game, with both characters and make Ellie the only one to regret her actions? If revenge is a thing in this universe, realistically, Joel should have had half of America after him in Jackson considering how many bodies he piled up in the first game.
Sadly, people will see it differently and they won't even consider opinions like ours for discussion. As long as we say that it's not that good of a game, Sony and their paid reviewers will keep hijacking the user score until eventually it'll be a 10/10. Might as well call them People's Republic of Sony.
I bet Troy feels crappy deep down like he got such a terrible ending to a great character. Imagine Rick Grimes tripping and falling off a cliff in Season 5 of The Walking Dead and dying just like that
I love that it mirrors the winter scene in the first game where he falls off the horse and Ellie's trying to get him back up. Even now, after all these years of being estranged, Ellie still needs Joel. Like she said to Sam, her biggest fear is ending up alone. For all intents and purposes, Joel is her father, and Ellie has operated as half of a highly close-knit duo for years. You can see her fighting for her independence from him in the early game, and that's what I find so tragic about his death. Ellie was so co-dependent that nothing short of Joel dying was going to kick her character forward in that manner. I'm usually the first to call bullshit on character deaths as cheap plot devices, but this wasn't cheap. The scene was so powerful, so raw, that it left me a sobbing angry mess just like Ellie.
It's cool how Troy changes his voice to sound like Joel so when you hear him talk in podcasts you don't really hear the similarities, but Ashley's natural voice sounds so much like Ellie that if you look away while listening it's like the character is talking.
If I remember correctly, she also made Ellie the character she is today. She was written less "heroic" at first but Ashley changed all that during production, basically.
Troy getting emotional worrying about Ashley during the death scene is so wholesome. These two can stand out as my 2 favorite picks in video game actors. Seriously, they are so freaking awesome!
An awesome spoilercast like this deserves TIME STAMPS. Please like if useful. 00:00 - Intros 01:00 - Dr Uckmann “Controversy” 01:35 - Ads for KF 03:00 - “Future Days” as the connective tissue of the game / “One Night Live” Event 06:34 - When did you know you’d come back to TLoU? 09:00 - Was there hesitation coming back? (Ashley) 11:06 - Was there hesitation coming back? (Troy) 13:47 - Is Joel’s character on a pedestal from Part 1? (Neil) 15:16 - Joel in Part 2 vs Part 1 and criticism from audience about Joel (Neil) 16:20 - Criticism of Joel (Troy) 18:48 - Respecting the character, “deserving” death in the world of TLoU (Neil) 19:24 - Ellie as Protagonist and Ashley as Lead in Part 2 (Ashley) 21:58 - Preparing for The Scene (Troy) (a Must Watch) 24:30 - “Nobody loves this character more than me…except maybe Troy Baker” (Neil Interlude) 24:46 - Preparing for The Scene (Troy) Continued 25:38 - Directing and Prepping The Scene, Conversations with troy and Joel’s thought process (Neil) 28:18 - "There is only so much prep." Caring deeply about and as the characters (Ashley) 30:22 - Evoking dread/anger and being uncomfortable (Neil) 31:38 - Leaks and Death in context (Neil) 32:09 - Watching the Leaks in Real Time and the lack of context (Neil) 38:02 - Was the game a hard sell for PlayStation? (Neil) 39:53 - What Is the Message of Part 2 for you? (Greg) 40:32 - What Is the Message of Part 2 for you? (Ashley) 42:38 - What is the Message of Part 2 for you? Obsession, Sins of The Father, in conversation and a continuation of Part 1 (Troy) 46:13 - What Is the Message of Part 2 for you? In conversation with Part 1, Love - best and worst aspects, human decisions and ego (Neil) 47:29 - Multiple Interpretations (Greg) 48:49 - Listener Q: Symbolism of the moths (Neil) 50:15 - Symbolism of Light and Dark…and why is Abby so jacked??? (Greg) 51:48 - Answer. (Neil) 52:21 - Abby’s life purpose was not to kill Joel (Neil) 52:55 - Joel and Abby’s arcs are similar. A story of redemption. (Neil) 53:22 - Doing the Flashbacks - non linearly especially the Museum (Troy) 55:49 - Doing the Flashbacks - nostalgia and sadness (Ashley) 57:29 Bye Troy 58:15 - Recording capsule scene in the museum/ father daughter moments(Neil and Ashley) 1:01:20 - How long have Joel and Ellie not spoken to each other (Salt Lake City to Barn scene)? (Greg) 1:03:50 - Porch Scene (no hug) (Neil) 1:05:30 - Listen Q - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Greg) 1:06:57 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Ashley) 1:07:30 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson?(Neil) 1:08:25 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Ashley continued) 1:09:10 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Greg continued) 1:10:55 - “Ellie’s obsession with Abby is like a drug addict” and letting go of the addiction (Neil) (Must Watch) 1:11:37 - Interpretation of Ending as a Revenge Story: Ellie and Abby’s actions (Ashley) 1:13:03 - Interpretation of Ending as a Revenge Story: Ellie and Abby’s actions (Neil) 1:13:45 - "There is no Right answer." Criticism of the ending (Neil) 1:14:15 - Listener Q: What was the decision around the ending of the game? (Revenge is hollow?) 1:17:00 - Answer: Abby v Ellie (Neil) (Must Watch) 1:18:10 - Listener Q : Too dark? Seeing the best and worst in humanity (Neil) 1:20:01 - Why make us play as Abby? (Greg) 1:20:40 - Answer (Neil) 1:21:45 - Characters making the choices that the player doesn’t want them to make (Greg) 1:23:08 - Ellie is trying to be Joel …and she isn’t. Being inside Ellie's head (game play v cut scene). Alignment of player and character (Neil) 1:24:40 - Playing Ellie - her choices and motivation as an actor and playing PTSD (Ashley) 1:26:50 - Joel, Ellie and Abby’s arcs parallel - “Quieting inner demons and trauma” (Neil) 1:27:30 - Abby saves Ellie. “There is no relief” (Ashley) 1:30:11 - Where did the character of Abby come from? (Neil) 1:31:56 - How Laura Bailey came to be Abby. (Neil) 1:35:17 - Listener Q: Why was there such an effort not to talk about Abby early in reviews/spoilercasts? Was not done by or for PR (Neil) 1:38:50 - Listener Q : Character of Lev and included a trans character? Addressing criticism and use of dead name (Neil) 1:42:48 - Listener Q : Favourite moment to shoot? Grow House sequence with Dina and porch scene with Joel (Ashley). Shannon Woodward shout out 1:44:11 - Don’t forget Neil’s “sex scene” (trolls) 1:44:20 - Listener Q : Favourite moment to shoot? Porch scene with Joel (Neil) 1:45:15 - Listener Q : Favourite moment to shoot? Ellie and Tommy scene after Joel’s death (Ashley continued) Jeffery Pierce shout out 1:45:38 - Tommy and Ellie’s final scene and mirroring (Neil) 1:47:15 - Listener Q : “Take On Me” moment. Why that song. Making amazing moments optional (Neil) 1:49:14 - RETURN OF THE VITA 1:49:58 - Listener Q : “Future Days” release date vs outbreak? 1:50:40 - Listener Q : What does new menu screen mean after finishing the game? 1:51:41 - Listener Q: Are there plans for DLC? 1:52:30 - Listener Q : Anna/Abby/Pregnant women comic book mix-up 1:53:20 - Listener Q: Was Ellie secretly Joel's hairdresser? 1:54:10 - Steimer Q: Why does Owen not notice Abby’s injury (noose)? 1:55:35 - Laura Bailey is awesome and deserves some good vibes sent her way. 1:56:13 - Thanks to Neil and Ashley. Thanks for hosting this show Greg. I think it's the best from KF yet!
Also for the life of me, I could not make out what Ashley meant when talking about her favourite scene. Specifically when talking about a (???) House scene, followed by the porch scene with Joel? Please inform and I'll correct it. Also might be off by 1 sec cos its by third time watching and it had to be at 1.5x speed🙃
25:51 That's a Ashley cry! Ellie did the same gesture when Tommy came over and talked to her before they left for Seattle! It's so stealthy yet so real. I saw that and I said wow that's how real human cry. Now I know the performances are real deal.
Wow! A good catch, she actually did that same thing in the game. I actually tear up when I watch Troy and Ashley talk about that scene. It is great to see how emotionally connected they are for these characters. For me Troy is Joel and especially Ashley is Ellie and they have put their heart and soul into these characters and they are honoring their legacy over Joel and Ellie.
So the guy that has been almost two decades working to bring life to those characters, care less for them than some random baby in the internet that can't stand the possibility of people dying. Good.
@@darkblade_113 really? I found the opposite. They mentioned again and again how they lied and deceived the fans to protect the story. Look at what they did to Joel. Neil's words say he cares about Joel but actions say otherwise. To kill in this fashion but more importantly so soon in the game says he doesn't care. At the end of the day he intentionally made a game that he knew would be divisive. Make divisive games win divisive prizes.
Same here. Except I started crying and couldn't stop--had to pause & come back later. I think I have PTSD from this experience. (It's hard to just refer to it as a game.)
I'm just thinking about Tommy. In the first game he told Joel he had nothing but nightmares from what they did as hunters. Then in this game he used everything Joel taught him to kill all those WLF members. Tommy saved himself from a life of misery and Joel's death brought out that past. And that's why Maria left him. Now when I look at Tommy all I see is Joel.
@@imamazing4333 I was thinking the same thing. Kinda like left behind from LOU1 but we get to play as Tommy slaughtering all of the wlf and seeing is mental decline.
Tommy knew Joel's Big Secret and he knew WHY Joel was killed. Given Joel's past and the importance of Maria, Jackson and the community, he would _never_ leave on a revenge mission. Also, he wouldn't leave Ellie if she wanted to pursue revenge, PLUS she was arguably one of their best rangers. Druckmann didn't want Tommy and Ellie to go on a revenge quest together so he made him a lone wolf. Why? Because he wanted Ellie and her (brand new) girlfriend to go together.
9:56 it's interesting how Ashley was worried about leaning on troy for Part II; because it's a lot like how Ellie actually feels before and definitely after Abby's revenge. the parallels are poetic
The journal entry Ellie has where she dwells on Joel's final thoughts is pretty damn sad. Whether it hurt him more to have her see that, or that it comforted him to have her there in his final moments. I didn't even think about that until I read it and felt pretty gutted. They handled Ellie's grief really well imo.
Yup, that entry was really sad to think about. I think it probably hurt him more. And he knew Ellie would want revenge, even though I dont think Joel would have wanted he to go on that path.
@@SkemeKOS I agree, and Joel himself dealed with grief in a different manner than her: instead of searching for that military guy that killed Sarah, he simply detached himself from human relationships and went in a cold blooded path as a hunter.
Leonardo Diniz Wait didn’t Tommy kill the soldier that killed Sara? Pretty sure he did, unless you meant the one who he got the orders from to kill them.
I had a huge smile of my face when that happened, it was so damn good. And then realizing I could go "practice" on the guitar and literally play guitar with my touchpad, amazing.
Me too! Check out the unplugged version of that song! Literally just search take on me unplugged MTV. If you haven't heard it already ghaaaaa. Lemme know what you think.
Only causals who played the game ok easy mode missed it. I played it on survival so I scavenge every inch of every location. I pretty sure most people didn’t find Drakes Necklace in the bank.
@@H.E.M. I played on Survival also, I've never even played either game lower than that. But I feel like survival mode in 2 is a lot more forgiving than 1. I never had full anything in 1 on survival, but there were multiple times in 2 where I had full ammo for a few guns and full medkits way too often. I love the gameplay, but I wish I could make the resources even more sparse so it'd feel more thrilling.
6:00 joel girlfriend 14:37 joel trust on abby why? 18:10 joel realice he is dead 40:00 the game's message 42:32 part 3 confirm?? 46:00 the game's message for neil 49:00 the moth meaning 1:08:00 the other end of the game 1:24:00 ellie compared to joel 1:30:00 tommy joel hunters and kill abbys dad 1:32:00 abbys cast 1:39:00 lev sexuality 1:46:00 tommy final scene 1:48:00 take on me 1:50:00 joel song of the beginning 1:51:00 abby get to the fireflies new menu 1:51:00 dlc or multiplayer 1:53:00 abby was anna ellies mum
@@nakkiolololo4581 Na he should stay dead. If anything, a new IP would be best. Give people time to digest pt II and appreciate the story they were given.
@@nakkiolololo4581 that would be bullshit if they bring him back It would be like "yeah we killed him brutally in the second part but now he's back by a miracle cause u all hated that" Also they buried him
@@radiospines completely agree. Go for a new IP and if they want to go back to the last of us either go with Abby and Liv or a completely new story. Maybe just after day 0 would be cool
@@controversialgaming1364 Yeah sure... The majority of the metacritic user reviews is pissed off with no reason. Not to mention the democracy with Metacritic deleting and even not allowing bad reviews. Also, i don't remember something similar with the first game... Now that's odd.
“Ellie is trying so hard to be Joel...but she isn’t” is the most understated aspect of this game that critics don’t acknowledge. They ask why Ellie sacrifices everything for this quest, but they don’t realize she’s immitating the very character whose death they were angry at.
She even makes note to Tommy of that same sentiment, but at the same time: 1) She also uses Joel as an avenue to reach the mentality of forgiveness 2) She was Joel's moral compass a number of times in TLOU, so we know she's not Joel It feels like you can't use Joel as a reason to fight for the quest, especially after the theater fight, and a reason to stop the quest, the flashback. It also feels that Ellie's character over 5 years has gone through more change than Joel did over his 20 year flash forward in TLOU 1. My suspension of disbelief is trying, but I'm having issues.
@@blackmanwhitesuit 1. Because she wanted to forgive Joel, there were two sides of him. The man who survived and the dad we see in the flashback. Just because she uses Joel as a way of forgiveness doesn't mean she definitely didn't try to act like the worst parts of him to get revenge. 2. And duh, but here she's trying to be because he died but she's not. She'll fight to survive but she can't murder like he did. She was 14 in 1, and 19 in this game. On top of all the last of us stuff, that's when people go through some of the biggest changes in their life. Becoming an adult, on top of dealing with Joel's lie and the usual last of us stuff.
Facts and I think at the very end she realized this and saw that last hopeful scene with Joel. That’s why she stopped. She also forgave Joel and Abby that moment and realize she didn’t have a purpose in her life. Before her purpose was to save the world, that would gave her death meaning. She’s been waiting for a way to die but towards the end she left everything in the house behind which means she’s finally moving on. This story is so deep and up to many interpretations
It truely breaks my heart to see how effected Ashley and Troy are emotionally and mentally. The actors have the best connection to their characters...more then us. So every character decision and expression is either yay or nay no matter how the creators direct it. Love these two
If you’re interested in knowing more about what they are talking about, you should check out Ashley’s episode of Between The Sheets if you haven’t seen it.
Volture these people pour their hearts out and spend years dedicated to these characters and now arm chair directors are trying to tell these artists how they should act
@@ca20mn Exactly, it's a real shame. The sad thing is that a lot of people just mindlessly take on popular opinions (like devs not caring about characters for example) without having finished their own playthrough.
The flashback to Ellie's final conversation with Joel could suggest that Ellie's need for revenge is sparked by her own guilt for not having forgiven Joel before he died. Alternatively, Ellie may have been ready to begin forgiving Joel but was never given the opportunity. However, the flashback to Ellie suggesting that she will eventually forgive Joel also prevented her from killing Abby. Perhaps it reminded her that she is capable of mercy, and if she forgave Joel, she could forgive Abby too.
Shanah Morgan yup true she didnt know anything about abby. Maybe ellie letting abby go is her way of finally realizing that violence only begets more violence and is pointless because an act of forgiveness is what her heart needed/wanted all along
Here's my take: The hatred that Ellie feels for Abby is an externalized reflection of the hatred Ellie harbors for herself. Why? Well Joel deeply hurt both Abby and Ellie in different ways and they both punished him for it. Ellie hates Abby for torturing Joel to death, especially because she didn't get a chance to restore her relationship with Joel. This is a mirror because Ellie also tortured Joel, she did it for years but in a different way, and I'd say in a way that was more painful for Joel, and that was by disconnecting from him. She hates herself for torturing him like that and not restoring their relationship when there was still time. That's the real pain she has been trying to avoid facing during this entire revenge quest, she's like a drug addict using revenge to avoid dealing with those painful feelings of regret. This is the realization she has while she is drowning Abby when she has the flashback to the scene on the porch with Joel and chooses to spare Abby. She's not just forgiving Abby, she's really most importantly forgiving herself and finally coming to terms with what happened between her and Joel, I think her leaving his guitar to rest in the house and walking away is supposed to symbolically represent that she has forgiven Joel, made peace with what happened between them and is finally ready to move on and start a new life. I hated the end at first but after much deliberation I think it's actually really poetic. People saying the game is just about "revenge is bad" I think have really missed the point.
They're emotional attachment to both their characters and performances have always given me the utmost respect for them. It makes it even more okay to cry watching these events unfold within the story. Such incredible actors and director man.
Another question I wish they'd discussed: "What was the thinking behind making the player control Abby, rather than Ellie, during the Abby/Ellie theatre battle?" I personally felt so conflicted I could barely concentrated, and when I failed and was killed by Ellie, I admit that some part of me was deeply satisfied. Which, in itself, made me feel conflicted. Anyone else?
YES. You are not alone there for sure. I was conflicted throughout the entire game! But I think that’s what made it so freakin good and so emotional. So.many.feelings.
@@merritthenderson889 Not really, it's the same as Fahrenheit: Indigo Prophecy, they make you play characters with conflicting interests. The difference being that David Cage let you choose a side and continue the narrative.
I was very conflicted about trying to kill Ellie during that battle. I even remember saying I don't want to do this. But as the battle went on (over multiple attempts) I found myself more and more wanting to kill Ellie. Almost like I was getting into Abby's POV. It was a bizarre feeling.
I think that was a superb choice in using gameplay to add to the narrative and evoke emotion. When have you ever played against a boss and thought, fuck, I want to lose, I hope I’m supposed to lose and it triggers a cutscene, but nope, you’re forced to win. It was especially refreshing that she was actually using all her skills such as the bombs. That being said, I didn’t necessarily love it, at least what the outcome was, but i appreciated their boldness
Same !! And I was screaming at my TV like "How dare you make this fight a parallel to when we fight David as Ellie !! Down to the damn machete..." haha. I love this game very much though, even in tough moments like this
I felt so uncomfortable using Ellie to fight abby at the end.. Everytime i pressed square i died a little on the inside.. Cutting abby like that did not make me feel good.. So glad ellie let her go
"The point in this world is whether you're a hero or villain, it doesn't matter. This doesn't dictate how you die". This is what makes it realistic and great.
Joel died precisely because he was the villain in someone else's eyes. Had he not done what he did in the hospital, and had he just stayed out of trouble altogether and lived peacefully, he wouldn't have been killed the way he was. Neil fails to see this flaw in his point.
@@gilGames82 joel wasnt staying out of trouble and living peacefully prior to meeting ellie in the first game. The first scene with tess and joel is tess coming back from doing a deal for ration cards for pills (I assumed it was a drug deal but it could also be interpreted as a deal for meds). Joel was supposedly involved in a lot of shady deals with shady people as a black market smuggler.
@@gilGames82 How did Neil fail to see that? He wrote Abby's perspective after all. For every main characters you can argue from both side aka they're good/ bad, but It's doesn't matter because death will come for them all the same.
I disagree. To me, that just makes it a nihilistic misery wank. Neil made this game like DC makes movies; they seem to think making it dark and edgy also makes it profound, and it doesn't. Joel's death is all shock value masquerading as something more. It's like Neil thinks "And, like, sometimes people just die, man." is philosophic revelation. It doesn't say anything. It exists to elicit an emotional response, not to express something meaningful. Neil wanted to make The Road and ending up making A Siberian Film. It's oppressively bleak and brutal but says very little with the bleakness and brutality and feels very much reminiscent of teenagers who think swearing and violence in movies makes them more mature.
This is the first time I’ve ever seen Ashley’s face, and noticing that she’s the person that said “Captain America saved my life” in The Avengers just blew my mind.
I think that last flashback cutscene with Joel and Ellie on the night before Abby kills Joel, so it's their last conversation is crucial in driving home why his death affected Ellie so badly. The earlier flashback when she had her big fight with Joel which was 2 years prior to the start of the game implies she hasn't spoken to him in those 2 years and then the barn dance happens, she kisses Dina and that bigoted homophobic idiot has a go and Joel steps in to defend them. Then Joel and Ellie's reconciliation that night. So she was at a place where they were going to try and repair their relationship and then Abby kills him and robs her of that makes his death all that more impactful on her. As for the ending, in my mind Eliie goes on the road for a few months and does a lot of soul searching, contemplates suicide on a number of occasions. But her love of painting and music helps her through, expressing her emotions through both art forms, until she gets to a place where she's ready to try and reconcile with Dina and they slowly rebuild their relationship where they eventually move on and live happily together. That's what I like to think happened after the credits rolled.
Just wished that all the flashbacks weren't flashbacks and we got some naturally progressing time to spend with him. Would have felt more impactful to have gone through all of that prior to his demise so his death was more gutwrenching. Don't get me wrong I was sad to see it happen. But it kind of felt rushed in my opinion. Like "that just happened" and the rest of the game is "this is why we did that". Instead of building up suspense before hand and then having it happen where we understand it, and hate it at the same time. Red wedding style. I already understood that revenge was bad from almost every basic action movie/game of the last decade. By the way this game goes about it, all of your actions have consequences right? Like killing abby at the end would have, say, restarted the cycle w lev? How many fucking revenge cycles has Ellie started within her own? Jesus why wait until you almost kill her to let her go, after you spent the ENTIRE GAME indiscriminately murdering random people that had nothing to do with Joel to begin with. And if anything a vision of Joel would have inspired me to murder her more lol, a glimpse of what I lost because of you after you murdered everyone I care about and bit off my fingers? Yeah sorry your dead man. I get what they were going for but if Ellie is forced to feel remorse than why not Abbie? At no point does Abby in the game ever regret ANYTHING, a direct comparison is Ellie and Abbie's reaction to killing pregnant people (fuck Mel btw). Ellie's is to drop to the ground and throw up, Abby's is to say "goooood" like a cartoon villian getting his rocks off. Even Joel was never that blatantly evil, and he had a redemption arc. Abby doesn't. Whatever man it's just my opinion though don't read too much into it I guess.
@@titsmcgee4697 But that would have missed the point of the whole thing. Ellie REMEMBERING some of her most important memories of Joel (good and bad) made those flashbacks SO much more powerful. Knowing that those happy moments (like in the museum) would never come back or that their broken relationship might never get mended (before seeing the last flashback) made all those scenes way more impactful. Its the whole point of this structure. And Abby feels BAD about it. Obviously she doesn't regret killing him, but she doesn't move on. Thats pretty obvious in her scene with Owen in the boat, where he talks about searching for and then brutally killing th epeople that killed his family and she reacts in an extremely aggressive way. Abby doesn't mind killing a pregnant Dina, because she is raging and thinks that Ellie KNOWINGLY killed Mel, who was pregnant. Abby doesn't know that Ellie was unaware of that fact and might have not killed Mel. Ellie NEEDS that last fight to even have a chance of forgiving Abby. Think about it. Every other encounter between the two was Abby DOMINATING Ellie, making her feel helpless oder weak. Ellie needed to have Abbys life in her hands, so that she could actually make a choice. Abby shows us how revenge, even when successful, does not make the trauma/ptsd/nightmares disappear. Tommy shows us later on that not being able to let go makes you bitter, crippled and alone. Ellie learns that lesson in the final fight, loosing fingers, being alone BUT at least she got her humanity back and more importantly forgave Joel and HERSELF
@@X5J2UY fuck, man. You're on absolute point with this. It's really disheartening that so many people dont see this because they only see the game with a shallow lense.
This was so good! I was lucky to have completely avoided spoilers and went into the game blind. So to hear the director and actors of the main characters break it down and reaffirm things I picked up on and appreciated during my play through was so satisfying. Getting their thoughts on the story is so special! Thanks hosting this podcast, I’ve never seen your content before but this was great!
Man, I'm glad I heard this. Didn't like every decision made in this game, but I really did enjoy and appreciate their genuine thoughts. Weirdly feel like I have some closure.
Havent watched it, but i feel the same way about the game and ive been wanting to hear neal talking about the decisions that he made. and give context to all of the parts open to interpretation
I've been struggling to come to terms with this game for two days since finishing it. I say that as someone who wasn't spoiled by leaks and who liked and supported Abby during her quest. But I still couldn't grasp why Ellie was left where she was or why they would do this to her and Joel. But I think I can now fully accept and appreciate why they told this story. This video was so important to me to get closure on the game. I just wonder how many people will be left empty, who won't search out or find this video or similar discussions with Neil and cast.
To those who hate the game because of Joel's death: As a wise man once said; "I know you wish things were different, I wish things were different. But they ain't."
And other wise man once said:"you can't change what's done you can only move on"(this line is from the character Arthur Morgan in Red Dead Redemption 2)
Realizing now JJ was named after Jesse and Joel. Edit: Guys It could definitely be Jesse jr but me personally I think it’s Jesse Joel and then whatever last name he has 😂. I just feel like dina would’ve added Joel because it would mean a lot to Ellie, but to each their own.
I felt the exact same way. I was very empty and felt very ... lost. I’ve had time to process it now and watching this has helped. No game EVER! Has had this impact on me.
You should watch Battlestar Galactica my friend! The cast was just as passionate about it as the writers and crew. Both of these groups could talk for hours and hours about the symbolism and story that they helped create. The outcome of cast and crews that are passionate is the absolute best.
If I loved the story for what IT is, then I would have to hold an intervention with all our family and friends in the fandom. The first step is recognizing that the story and writing have major problems. Don't worry, Neil, this is a safe space. We all love you and want your script to be the best script it can be. Lol
@@SolidBoss7 Did you think the story and writing were a masterpiece? It clearly had problems. There were many strengths and weakness about the game. Some fans are either delusional or in denial if they think this game was a 10/10. Lol
This game made me cry, laugh, feel guilt, feel anger, happiness for virtual characters. I’ve never played a game as thematically mature as Part 2. Watching these characters trying to cope with their trauma is genuinely heartbreaking. The journey was rough, the destination is uncertain... as life is, but there’s always hope to keep us going.
Adrian Wagner I’ll never get over the irony of ironies that ppl trying to throw toxicity at anyone who appreciated the game do an unbelievably effective job at proving why they told this story. Game was (partially) about how unapologetic toxicity breeds toxicity, pregame I might’ve joined in on it but now I just feel for em. Pain’s on full display with every comment like that, good fkn luck to em
@@TheFreshTrumpet STFU with toxicity, fans has the right to have whatever opinion they have, some of them (most) are angry because they love the first game and joel.
I wish Ellie and Abby spoke to each other more. Just yelling and venting out their anger would have felt emotionally gripping with them coming to terms with each other's motivations. I would've love to seen Ellie break down and cry after her final encounter with abby and just let all her feelings out.
This is my one stand out feeling about the game. Ellie still doesn’t know who Abby is, does she? She has no idea why she did what that to Joel, I was waiting the whole game for Ellie to scream at Abby “why?!” But it never happened. Incredible game though and one will be thinking about for ages
I remember, in the first game, a very emotional scene with Joel and Ellie, in which he tells her “You have no idea what loss is” and Ellie responds “Everyone I have ever cared for has either died or left me...” it’s so sad to see this play out in the second game with Joel and Dina. This game is so beautiful. Everyone did an amazing job with it.
despite how legendary this game was, how it was really affected me and touched my soul deeply, from every aspect it has, and despite it’s on the top of my all time favourite games that i’ve ever played alongside the witcher 3, but this game truly planted things in my heart, a beautiful things that i could never imagine being taught from a game, a game was designed to give lessons in life to all of us, about the unconditional love to others and what consequences that could happen when we decide to do things; bad or good, and in the end when we truly achieve and regain our pure beautiful humanity by deciding that peace, forgiveness, and tolerance are the only ways to have a better life, this game has the great potential to change people and societies, never ever imagined in my life that i could cross a game or a movie that made me drop alot of tears and raise up my emotions and affect me even to this very moment after finishing it 4 days ago, all my gratitude and respect to every single person that worked on this masterpiece, thank you so much naughty dog. ❤️
@@SuperSaiyan3985 nope that still goes to devil may cry 2. When asked in an interview where does dmc 2 time-line falls in line with the other games they said to just forget about it. It doesn't connect with the main story line 😂 act like it never happened
@@SuperSaiyan3985 if you want read this, there is why i love this game. I think its good sequel,but ok its not best sequel, red dead 2 is better as sequel. But tlou 2 follows the idea of first game and gives many new to the franchise. Thats best game i have ever played, i played many, but none of them, did to me the thing tlou 2 did, i it changed me, made me look at some things from different points, made me think so much, made me feel so much. Now about everything. Graphics&details Its most beatifull game i have expirienced on my ps4 pro, it looks amazing and has manyyy small details, ppl make many vids abiut different stuff in tlou 2, even i myself found one, no one has. Abby was standing by trash can, i was just standing there, then she raised her arm just to touch the backback(typical animation), but u know what? Cover of trash can raised as abbys arm raised too, its so fcking awesome. Gameplay Its totally amazing on survivor, can't wait to play on harder difficulty (in update), its awesome. Locations are very wide and vertical, many ways to kill ur enemies, many weapons, skills, ways to play one location. A.I. tlou 2 has best a.i. ever, enemies are very smart and unique, they have tactics etc. Its cool. But u know that would be just cool, if not only one thing, athmosphere shiped with storytelling&gameplay Storytelling It was amazing in p2. For me. Before telling need to say that the athmosphere plays not the last role in storytelling and its amazing in part 2. The soundtracks, envoirments, weather. Seattle was so dark and depeessing which made a fcking amazing athmosphere, i was completly drown into the story Charachters talking about their past&future and other stuff look very good, like i was excited to watch film with joel, ellie was talking about. Whole patrol is such a good and u know peacfull chapter, expect killing some infected. Until that thing happens. Won't say anymore about athmosphere, but keep in mind (at least for me) it was very important. Now about story itself. Then joels death, that was the best way to make u really want a revenge. Killing some other charachter would have given us no impact, us joels death gave, no such sadness, no such anger. And also important to say that now - you are ellie, bcs u are united by one goal, fucking kill every last one of them. The more we play as ellie, the more we see a price of revenge, innocent die. But first thing happens in seattle day 2 after torturing nora. Ellie cant belive in the actions she really did, that really hurt me. (Can't not admit the master work from nd, ellie takes off her clothes, i haven't seen this in any other game, all devolepers say its hard af to do such thing, nd are first to do this, as i know) Then ellie kills mel, you have seen the way she reacts, the more we play, the more we see that revenge doesn't worth it. ellie was in the beggining ready to kill everyone, she almost dod it but as u see, trough the story i felt same emotions as ellie felt. Also i forgot to mention about flashbacks, such a great idea. They time by time, warm up your heart and tell paralell story, to always keep ur emotions in the way they need. Then we are going to abby, after we saw ellie being in sesttle for 3 days, we have a vision of many things, that 3 days by abby will break. We see the wlf, serapheis living, we saw their communties, rules etc. While plsying as ellie we know thst there is the enemy. But after playing as abby we see thst thrre is actulaly no bad/good guys, just survivors, just people, that still are ready to each others throats. Thats the point to play as abby But has she a good story? Yes. Its story about redemption. I liked that story, and will tell u why. She has a epic gameplay, rat king, end of seattle day 1 with a most dope fillming in videogames in the forest, whole seattle day 3, relationship with lev was great. Abby has a deep story so to tell what im meaning i'll copy and paste one part from my review on the game, its in overral about the story and why did chatachters done the thing they have done. Before that need to say that ellie and abby have many incommon. Look the whole plot we see Ellie wanting to kill abby, but she was hunting her mostly not bcs joels death, bcs she took away from ellie oportunity to forgive joel. She was blind, she was killing people, wgat made her look worse in our eyes, she killed prople not involved in killing joel, abby doesn't, she killed only joel. Look trough all the game we see that nd wanted to show us that there are no bad/good guys, everyone is villian by someone's view, like everyone is just surviovor and fights for his live. So we also see that "bad" abby has feelings, her realetionship is like joel+ellie=abby+lev and you know why that happend? After killing joel abby still saw the nightmares with his father, the emtyness inside her wasn't filled with joels death, so she had ti do something that will fill this eternity. That's why after that sex scene we see abbys dream. With lev and yara that are henged on the three. Now she saw how can she fill this emtyness, so she helped them. Then we see Ellie, even 2 years later still has nightmates with joel, he is in blood, that's the way she now sees him everytime. Now remember, after killing joel abby still saw her father in blood. But after helping kids, he saw him like he always was, alive, with a smile on the face. THE SAME WITH ELLIE. In final boss fight, in last minute she sees joel, like he always was, with coffe and guitar with sense of humor, also not in blood. So she wasn't killing abby, she u derstood that will solve nothing. Also some more things about the ending: ellie list everything, her memmory of mother, her switchblade, ellie lost ability to play guitar, thing that reminds us on joel(also when she plays and leaves guitar at the end=leaves joel) and lost dina. And also why ellie let abby go, she also saw abby with lev was like her and joel. Ask if u still have something to ask, and in the end i will say a bit about music
You know something’s wrong when the majority of the criticism for something is not only unnecessarily hostile, rude, and flat out mean, but it’s often interjected when it’s completely irrelevant or uncalled for, like in response to someone just saying they enjoyed the game. If that’s you, that’s a red flag that you’re doing something wrong.
Had you asked me what the perfect spoilercast for this game would be before I saw this, I would have described this exact video. This was absolutely wonderful! Thank you
Rolled credits a few hours ago, had a good cry afterwards, and just finished watching this at 2:40 am. You guys had me smiling and tearing up. This game is something special. Thank you Neil, Ashley, Troy and the rest of the talent in front of and behind the camera for creating this experience. Portilla is a boss!
@@constancefontenot2605 Cancer. She was 16/17. She talks about it in an interview with her fiance called 'Between the Sheets'. You can find on TH-cam, it's worth the watch. She talks about TLOU, her career etc.
Trill•4•Life I’m talking about Ellie sets out for revenge on Abby, and fails the first time. Then she goes back out for revenge again, and this time let’s Abby go but looses everything.
@@WillOnCode I will never understand how people can come to this conclusion. Abby lost so much throughout the game and to say she didn't pay at all is absurd
Never saw the leaks and loved the game. All my emotions where triggered... The only games that where able to do this was The Last Of Us and part 2. I'm 36, played heaps of games in my life and these 2 games are in my opinion the best games i have ever played... Just my opinion... I really hope there will be a part 3, i want to know more, i just need to.
I agree. I loved Halo CE and Halo 3 but in much different ways. You do get into Master chiefs role but it was more of the legendary mode battles and the ultra smart AI especially of that era CE still holds a top spot all time.
Troy’s description of Joel’s internal dialogue of regret for letting his guard down was beautiful and provided closure for the character. Maybe he’s right that it should have come through more in the performance, but I guess players (and Joel) were so shocked in that moment that subtleties are lost.
Maybe. I think thats what was happening right before his "say whatever speech you prepared" line. I think we were just too shocked (and betrayed) to see it that way. By the way I'm okay with the scene. I didn't like it but I think its perfectly fine for the story and character.
I think you can see the moment he's talking about when Abby asks if she remembers him. I also think you can chock that one up to facial animation being incredible in this game and many others, but not quite there yet to get subtle regret come across.
James Rhodes I think part of the problem may have been that they did several takes where Troy might have said different lines or reacted differently. The actor can easily get wrapped up in that headspace that they take certain inner emotions for granted but the final product moves so fast.
Trying to desperately come up with a reason why both Tommy and Joel got stupid over the years is sad. Remember when Joel and Ellie were greeted with guns at the gate when they first ran into Tommy together? 4 years of living in a community doesn't erase 20 years of running from/killing marauders, joining marauders and keeping your guard up and being smart at all times.
Yeah, they changed the look of the characters from the first, probably to portray the actors better. I also noticed a little bit of Troy on Joel's upper lip.
I love the trading card collectibles throughout the game. Their bios are clever and their stat slider that shows the hero to villain as a spectrum seemed like a subtle message that there's often not a good vs bad, Its all gray and its all on a spectrum. Great game. Pearl Jam makes me cry now which is kinda epic.
Right?! I remember the first one was what really made me love the characters even more than I already did after finishing it. They give such a personal perspective into their characters and it's so fascinating. I wish movies would do this too
I would LOVE to see Mo-Cap sessions of cutscenes from this game like we did in the first one. Mo-Cap sessions with commentary from the actors in a "Behind the Scenes" style would be something I'd pay so much money to see.
In the end, she’s breaking free of blind grief and rage as a motivator. She’s choosing to recognise Joel’s capacity for growth and forgiveness and wanting to emulate that, allowing it to override her selfish desire for revenge. The guitar symbolises Joel’s warmer, vulnerable human side and his growth since his horrible act of selfish love broke their relationship. That she can’t play it anymore and leaves it behind is a metaphor for her grief transforming from anger and hatred to acceptance and healing, as it eventually does. ”If I ever were to lose you I'd surely lose myself”.
Yeah, i would get it if it would end wouldnt be so shit. She killed and felt no remorse, but when she is finally at the goal of her journey, the whole point of it all, she ends it and she killed all those people for nothing, she already lost everything, why not just kill her to have at least something after all this, Abby gets away with the same thing, which is Ellie shamed for. Tbh better ending ( with the same message ) would be Ellie killing abby, and when she gets to an empty home, she ropes herself. Or it could end on the farm. Anything but this nonsense. It was the biggest cliche in the history of storytelling - kill all the others but the main “villian” because of shitty morality. Red dead redemption games have better story about revenge.
Thanks for your comment man, that was so eloquently well said. I just finished this game and am so emotionally drained. I went from initially hating the game from the senseless visceral violence and revenge...to just accepting and loving it by the end and accepting the grief that came from so much loss. That last scene was incredibly symbolic, but the way in which you described it helps shed a lot of the epilogue imagery. Also, I'm so glad to see that Abby and Lev made it to Catalina Island, for those that don't know, the Avalon is depicted whenever you return back to the starting menu.
@@pavelcerny9492 You can be emotionally blind until you face what caused those emotions. It is a bit of a trope but it is also something that happens in reality. I have had these sort of emotions before (obviously not to these extremes), as soon as you meet what caused it brings out more emotions and you don't go through with what you started. Her emotions are all over the place when she meets Abby. If Abby didn't leave I bet she would of tried to kill her again. PTSD is a horrible thing, I wouldn't be able to begin to imagine how horrible that feels. I think it is perfectly reasonable and its the ending I wanted, I was completely against Ellie when she tried to kill Abby then.
I don't need a video game dictating these values, I lost my mother years ago, and we're kinda in the midst of a global pandemic killing thousands everyday, Is it wrong to look for hapy ending in a game where I wished a happy ending existed here after waiting 7 years? The small ray of hope we were waiting for 7 years that we get in the midst of this pandemic turns out to end badly? It's like you're a religious person near the apocalypse who looks for comfort reading the bible, and at the end realizing jesus was satan these whole time
SPOILER WARNING: Thanks for this! It's helped me come to terms with certain aspects of the story that I was struggling with. Troy talking about playing the game from a selfless standpoint was a real eye opener. There is one point in the game, however, that I know will always pain me to play... Fighting Ellie as Abby. Ellie has always been my favourite character and I really felt like I was betraying her. She gets so badly beaten and it really upset me. On the other hand I liked getting to see her from the standpoint of one of her enemies. Her quick initiative, sense of hearing and talent for crafting becomes really clear and that was awesome to see!
That was the turning point for me when I sort of sympathized with Abby (even if it was just for half a moment), I realized how scary Ellie truly is, and for me, it was the first time I realized how much she had lost herself. I didn't recognize her and it took me seeing her from another perspective to realize that.
spicy toast I feel the same way! I’ve been defending it in so many comment sections but like.. its because I just love the game. Ive been enjoying various conversations and analysis of it. As much as it pains me, maybe even more than the first game?
What's ironic about that whole scene is that Ellie and everyone else was on the verge of just leaving the city anyway and trying to move on...until Abby just came in and killed Jesse and nearly did the same to Tommy, so the fight was forced anyway. Even though, Ellie was quickly recommited to her revenge mission, and sneaking around as you hear her shouting and taunting Abby, it's weird. It's something you'd expect from a Hunter or one of the other villains, not the character who's essentially your lead for the first half. But yes, to a certain extent you can view the 'hero' from the other side and get an idea of their playstyle, so to speak. But then Ellie went on to force their final fight on the beach, so it all rounded out in a way.
Saransh Oberoi i would die happy if i just saw my baby girl on the outskirts of jackson looking at it from a distance then making her way as the game cuts to black.
@@ThaCodFathers probably 4 months. At least. When Ellie leaves the farm, we switch back to Abby who gets captured, then we get back to Ellie and when she arrives she finds out Abby has been captured 2 months before. So a trip of 2 months from Jackson to Santa Barbara, I would assume. Another 2 to get back. At this point JJ is probably 2 y.old
Well people can feel how they feel it's understandable. I myself wasn't a hundred percent pleased with how the game unfolded but I have to applaud them for taking a chance with giving us something different and I'm still enjoying the game. So thank you Neil, Troy and Ashley.
Luke Eiffe yeah! What surprised me is I actually grew to love Abby. At the end scene I found myself begging Ellie to not kill Abby. I think Abby and Lev reminded her of her relationship with Joel
I'm glad they had this. It was an important discussion avout being able to talk about the game and the characters from their pov. It gives everyone a new way to look at why they did what in terms of plot points and character development.
Joaquin Febles My man, that was an unnecessary comment. Obviously if he likes the story, it doesn’t mean it’s objectively good. This is art we’re talking about, art is subjective.
Ashley's acting in Joel's death scene was one of the best moments of acting I can remember ever seeing. The range of emotions she displayed from anger and hate to just begging him to fight and then begging them to let him go all in the space of less than a minute. Fuck that was amazing
It was good acting its just sad how he never got to say his final goodbye to her he just dies brutally with golf club wile allowing them to have shelter and they didnt even give him a chance to fight back or give players one more chance to play as Joel
"You're gonna fucking die" was one of the best delivered video game lines in gaming history, along with the somber but pissed off delivery of "i'm gonna fucking kill you" after Joel takes the final hit.
one thing i was hoping to hear about was something i noticed that i thought more people would be talking about which is the fact that they really make sure we know abby hates heights and ellie being the opposite in the sense that she’s fascinated about heights. she talks about wanting to go to space and in part 1 she mentions how she wish she could’ve experienced flying in a plane. i could just be thinking too much into it maybe it could literally mean nothing. anyone have any thoughts on this? what it could mean? would like to hear what other people think.
The segments where Abby was afraid of heights were amazing! Her getting vertigo by being too close to an edge or looking down while with Lev was an incredible touch. I think the creative team just wanted Abby to be as much of a mirror image as possible by tying her and Ellie together in a number of ways.
Maybe that was deliberate, but for me it helped humanise her. In spite of her terminator physique and military demeanour she was just a girl trying to stop her nightmares...
Thats a very interesting observation. I feel like Abby and Ellie very obviously parallel each other, so i think your observation is right in line with that.
One thing I wished they talked about was their decision for you to play as Abby and go up against Ellie in the theatre. Would have been interested to hear Ashley and Neil’s thoughts on that.
I was so scared for every single character during that part. I felt like I was there, pleading for Ellie and Abby to stop. I get why they did what they did. But at that point killing each other wasn't worth it anymore!
To me that's was one of the most brilliant moment. I was doing well as Abby till i triggered a bomb and died horribly. Then I remembered, yeah, Ellie got bombs.🤣🤣
I thought it was stupid as hell. I enjoyed the game but fighting ellie? Lmao yeH ok like im gonna do that.... i loved the sounds of ellie crafting while fighting u and abby going “wtf is she doing” really showing that Ellie IS THE SUPERIOR CHARACTER. why make this abby character? Don’t understand it and never came to care for her. Idk why im typing so much, i wish they would have at least given us 1 encounter as Joel before he’s killed
I love how Greg presents the awkward "leaks" question in such a graceful way. Neil and the guys are clearly relaxed answering this difficult subject - and we now have insight into what the team was going through. That's why he is "Game-over Greg".
The way Troy talks about Joel so passionately shows that what happened to him wasn’t a mistake. You can tell when someone is bullshitting in an interview and there was no bullshit there. I 100% agree with him
@marsjacobvolta that's personal opinion. the giraffe scene never made me cry. this one did. because you know the love that existed and you know what was lost.
This podcast actually helped me to feel less frustrated about the game. I didn't hated the game but some of the interactions between Joel and ellie in the first game was the little things that made it special in my opinion.After playing it I started thinking more about how the game isn't supposed to be all joyful and happy because it is a dark world where characters try to survive day by day and the part 2 captures just one of those days that didn't go as good as others. I think the story is great not perfect but great. it did something no other game could do it made lot's of us sad and that's something hard to do.
yeah it feels like if they would made some small differences in how they paced the story and flashbacks and some other little things it could have been a really great game
I finished friday gonna give this whole video a watch, really wanna try to understand the decisions that were taken. Was some moments I liked and some I disliked. At present cant help but feel disappointed and really kind of depressed about what plays out. How Ellie and Joel's relationship is destroyed after finding out what Joel did. Ellie from this point hates Joel and wanted nothing to do with him for two years, which just sucks. Then also what Ellie says in the first game "everyone I have cared for has either died or left me" well this has now happened again. A depressing outcome for Ellie.
If you guys want a bit of a pick me up, it's implied that Ellie was able to reconcile with Dina. She's missing her weapons and has Dina's bracelet when she comes back to the farm. It's also implied that Abby and Lev made it safely to the firefly compound. That's as much of a positive ending as you can get.
Guys, let me hear what you think about my understanding of the game The plot device of the story is revenge, but guilt is just as important. - It is revenge that makes Abby torture and kill Joel (after he saves her). It is the guilt of doing this (notice the face she makes, right after killing Joel, she realizes that it did not satisfy her) that makes her come back to save yara and lev. - it is revenge that makes ellie kill all abby's friends (after they have spared her life). It's the guilt that makes her let abby go (1) That image of Joel (playing guitar on the porch, which is even Ellie's last entry in her diary) that comes to Ellie's mind when she was going to kill Abby is very significant (their last dialogue), since in the whole game she had only memories of him the dead on the floor (apart from flashbacks) and that image was different, he was ok, playing the guitar. In contrast, in this scene, she just went to Abby, because she saw Joel dead, again, and she just gives up killing just because she saw that image (of the guitar). At that moment, ellie forgave Joel and let abby go, because she saw in abby and lev, the same dynamic of her and Joel in the first game of unconditional love, of risking everything to save the other, from the beginning Abby didn't want to fight, but the moment Ellie threatens Lev, she changes her attitude and does the “necessary” to save him (in a situation identical to the first game, would Abby let Lev be killed?) . See that the scene of Abby carrying the lev to the boat is the same scene as Joel with her at the end of the first. Contributing to this understanding, Ellie's putting herself in Lev's place, the fact that, when giving up revenge, she says "Take him", in the sense that she doesn't want the boy to go through the same thing she did when she lost Joel and, thus, it interrupts the cycle of violence. There is a moment in the game, right after the hospital flashback in which she writes in the diary that she would not tell Jesse and Dina what Joel did, because they would not understand, but she herself wonders if she understands. I think she understands precisely the moment he realizes that the Abby / Lev relationship is identical to hers and Joel's (an unconditional love relationship). Ellie's revenge for not wanting to stop, doing everything at any cost (including leaving Tommy behind when Jesse calls her), the visions and the trauma are due, among other factors, to a feeling of guilt for the fact that to have ignored Joel for so long (which is absolutely understandable, since he lied to ellie about the fireflies) and when they would start over (which is the moment she says she is willing to try to forgive) he dies. (2) Much of ellie's feeling of revenge lies in the fact that she did not forgive Joel while he was alive. I think the presence of his coat represents this well: if in the first moment (flashback from the hospital, when he tells the truth) she refuses a hug from Joel, who was wearing that coat, in the second moment, in his house sequence , after Joel's death, she kind of hugs her coat (symbolizing that while he was alive, she didn't show her feelings, but after he dies she does it). In the first game she says that her big fear is being alone, the only one who didn't leave her was Joel, even with all the reasons for that, he might as well leave ellie, since she was distant from him (with reason) btw), including saying that he would do everything again , if God gave a second chance. Look at the great declaration of love that Joel gave. This reading is confirmed precisely by the memory of ellie of the last moment of the two. The last entry in her diary is a drawing of Joel playing the guitar, the only person who didn't abandon her was him, even though he had every reason to do so. Even Dina left her, with reason, but she still left, unlike Joel. (3) Do you know which was the worst? Ellie was willing to forgive Joel, I even think she ends up forgiving (even if not explicit, but in a very superficial analysis, I can infer), this is clear in the last flashback, however he dies the next day, preventing the restart of the relationship. At the beginning of the game she says she will see a movie with Joel (representing a change in attitude towards him, if the two were still really fighting, there would be no reason to do that, just remember that she, upon discovering the lie, speaks “We're done”), but he ends up dying in front of her. The final scene of the two is to kill, each saying "I love you" in their own way: Joel, knowing that ellie was pissed at him, distant, said that he would do everything again to save her; ellie, even knowing that Joel took away the meaning of her life, was willing to forgive him, see that she even writes in her diary, right afterwards at Joel's house, that “the only thing I have left is our last conversation ”. The details only reinforce this, ellie leaves the farm wearing Joel's coat and comes back wearing his shirt from the first game. It's very sad, she ends up alone without a finger (not being able to play Joel's song, which was the way to connect them. Even this song is used as an instrument for the first flashback), without her dina and her son). Another thing, if you notice, she kind of caresses the guitar and leaves it carefully on the wall, I don't think it represented a forgetfulness of Joel, but overcoming the trauma itself (there is still the question that she cannot play anymore). The most important thing is that the object that reminds her of Joel is the broken watch that she doesn't leave on the farm, she takes with her (it's the object that she picks up at Joel's house before going to Seattle; it's the object that she stays with looking at the beginning of the farm sequence ...). Every time she remembered Joel before the end, he was dead (she says it a lot in the diary, which smells like iron, of his death), but the memory that will remain is from their dialogue, as I said in the statement of love for each one (notice Joel's crying face when he says "I would be happy"; notice Ellie's face when Joel says he would do everything Again). this game is awesome, every detail is very subtle, it needs maturity to understand the ending. In the end, she ends up alone with nothing, without being able to effectively excuse the "father" she loved so much and without the love of life she, the dina. Summary of the story, hatred consumes everything and makes her lose everything. As the theme song “if i ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself”, because she lost Joel (the father figure that, despite everything, she loved so much) she lost everything because of her revenge (this is her scene crying alone at sea)
The death threats is ridiculous. They should be shamed. I didn't like joel dying but I accepted it and the game was fantastic. Not perfect but still great. 9.5 outta 10 for me.
@@Golems_victory No they didn't. You just went into the game closed minded and immediatly turned off your brain when Joel died and didn't think about why and just said 'This game is trash' which makes absolutely no fuckin sense.
100% they should name and shame the knobheads who did the threats. How pathetic must you be to threaten someone over your opinion of how a game should be.
@@Golems_victory There is no "yeah but". Not liking their story is no reason to justify any of the abuse they're getting. Constructive criticism is ok, disliking is ok ... name calling and abuse isn't.
This game felt like such an emotional draining game by the end of it. Made you feel like you needed to step away for some time and really think about what you just went through and if it was all really worth it. Such a surreal experience.
It was weird and some deaths were so surprising they made me jump in my seat. Definitely an amazing experience and I'm looking forwars to playing it many times like Part I
I like how they left the ending open for everyone so each player can interpret his/her own ending based on his/her thoughts and emotions that build up throughout the game.
Me too. They did a good job with that. To me its better to have an ending to be interpreted instead of it being only one way. Let's everyone share the way they personally perceived the ending. Which is exactly what this game needed.
Old comment, but still: The first game had the right amount of closure and ambiguity. Part 2 ended far too ambiguous and practically no closure apart from Joel and Ellie’s story (i.e. Ellie finally being able to both accept his death and move on). These are stories told by the writers and I would love to have a BIT of closure at least. Ellie’s story ended in a cliffhanger basically.
I was with Ellie for the whole ride, with the shared goal of killing these motherfuckers. Until Abby spared Ellie's life for a 2nd time, and we got to The Farm, my ire had been quelled, fair's fair, we killed Abby's closest friends and she has to live with the consequences of her own quest for revenge. Playing through Santa Barbara, it felt like Ellie shouldn't be there, then we get to The Pillars and the boats; with PTSD triggering the whole reason we started this journey, I was back in, but I didn't want to kill Abby, just show her that I could. And the game does exactly that. At the cost of some fingers, which seems like a small toll, until the final scene and you realize she can no longer connect with Joel through their shared song. Heartbreaking, I loved it. Experiencing a story, in which no one truly felt safe was incredibly refreshing. I appreciated efforts to make the player empathetic to the Salt Lake Crew, but I still felt no regret when each one met their fate.
this is great! i wish more people felt this way i fully agree. i love the story in this game so much and i think it’s so heartbreaking, tragic, and beautiful. i do however think it could’ve been executed better due to the pacing of the second half being kind of wack and personally i don’t really care for the whole plot of abby getting involved with the scars. i feel like they could’ve cut that out and made the game not drag on and still get the same point across. i’m curious what you think of that.
@@nathanchen107 maybe for closure for Ellie. and final conclusion for the whole game. If its make you think it non sense.. so the game succeed on delivering the both sides.
@@nathanchen107 It's not like Ellie enjoys going to Santa Barbara and leaving the farm and Dina and JJ. She has to or she won't move on with her life. Look how consumed she is in that sequence, barely able to eat or sleep. Look how guilty she feels when Tommy comes visit. I think the complexity of her choice is well delivered.
First week of Covid and everyone became Toilet Paper royalty. Stockpiled it like it was worth their weight in gold. Without a doubt, people would waste no time prioritizing themselves and considering everyone else an “other”.
Actually a lot of research and experience has shown that people show a lot more prosocial than asocial behaviour in disasters which are the closest experiences to apocalypses that we have. Think about it and it makes sense from an evolutionist point of view. Genes that promote social behaviour in these situations cause human communities to have a higher chance of survival so prosocial genes survive. Humans have evolved to be very cooperative because cooperative genes have a higher chance to survive. The idea that everyone becomes a raider in disasters and that humans all turn on each other is a myth created by entertainemnt because these stories are much more interesting. There is no real evidence to back that myth up.
lol... OP got it. Cannibalism is rampant when food is low too. Humanity DOES band together if it's a shared enemy though usually, so that isn't wrong. (Stops the us vs them thinking.)
Forgiveness is something that keeps coming up when I think about this game. Especially the ending. "You have to forgive the people that wronged you, not for their sake, but for yours." Ellie forgiving (or beginning to forgive) Joel which lead to Ellie forgiving Abby. She realized that by not forgiving Joel sooner, she never got the chance to fully reconcile with him. She didn't forgive Abby sooner so she lost everything. Ans it takes to the very last moment to finally see that her lack of empathy and lack of forgiveness is costing her everything she loves. I see it that Ellie is more angry at herself for not reconciling with Joel and then losing the chance rather than Abby taking him away.
Nice take on it. I don't like the story, I thought it was all over the place but I like what you said. No hate, but just can't accept the ending of this game.
@@redelixir9384 it's like the naruto and pain arc where naruto forgave pain despite everything cause he realize pain was someone in his shoes not this absolute evil and the fact abby sparred them even after ellie killed more of their comrades showed she wasn't this ultimate evil like ellie believed
I completed The Last of Us Part 2 last night and when Tory gets emotional, really hits me hard. I’ve never felt emotion like this playing a video game. The original blew me away with Narrative, this game broke me heart and make me smile and just ask why? Why and why! A masterpiece.
Yeah I agree Elle forgave Joel before the day he was going to die Elle was going to start her friendship again with joel but the next day he dies but at least Joel died with Elle forgiveing him
Thank you to all three of you guys for two of my favourite games of all time. Never have any games made me truly connect and "feel" for characters like The Last Of Us Parts 1 & 2. And thanks Greg for hosting an excellent spoiler cast.
Something I thought was important to note is early on in the game, when you have to sign-in while on patrol, you can see how frequently they actually don't do patrols (like sometimes months or weeks apart) which not only means that there aren't many infected around the Jackson area, but even looking at Tommy and Joel's patrols, they are 2 months apart and this is clearly over a whole year at the very least, which means Joel and Tommy only go out every now and again these last 4-5 years, and this is just further showing you how Joel has changed since the first game. Not only that, but they only ran into 2 clickers together. Thats childs play for either of them, and when thats the extent of any fighting Joel has to do YEARLY for quite a long time after all he went through, don't you guys think that would change a person? Make them more complacent and peaceful? Come on now. I wish more people would watch this spoilercast and be willing to understand more of the game.
more important than that: a lot of those patrole notes describe how Tommy and Joel find new people and bring them to Jackson. Some of them decide to stay in Jackson
@@X5J2UY Yep! Jackson has a really welcoming straggler/stranger policy which also explains why Joel would be so quick to save someone he doesn't know from the horde that may have already been chasing THEM. Such a good story tbh
Yeah, but the clowns who bitch and whine about the game haven't got time to play the game properly. They just wanna rush through it so they they can make their clickbait hate videos for the sheep.
great point. haters - "Joel would never walk into that he's too smart. bad game. disrespect" like dude, first, Joel was not that smart, he brute forced his way through the Apocalypse.. remember he was just Tess' muscle pretty much.. he's not stupid or anything, but he's not a mind reader.. I'm pretty sure Joel knows he wiped out the rest of the fireflies at the hospital, so why would he be on guard 4 years after? Tommy was a Firefly, if fireflies were seriously looking for Joel, they would have probably have got in touch to Tommy to just check (I don't know if fireflies knew Tommy had a brother, but maybe) he and Tommy rescued Abby, there is no way in hell they would expect her to turn on them.. and to be fair, both Tommy and Joel realized what was happening right before it did "y'all act like you heard of us or something.." ugh, crazy good writing.
Goddamn man, troy's observations on what the game is about are just so 100% accurate. Naughty dog are miles ahead of other game developers for sure. Maybe even further than some of the audience. Really glad i got and understood the same themes that they're discussing while playing the game.
Last of Us Part II challenged me in a way I never expected. It was a tough game to get through at times, I felt anger, sadness, happiness, loss, regret, but In the end, I absolutely loved this game. It is one of the best games I’ve ever played in my entire life. Great work Naughty Dog!
@@niharshastri3519 calm down fanboy. Incase you didn't realise or maybe ain't intelligent enough to understand it's called an opinion. If you ain't clever enough to spot them yourself then carry on enjoying the dross you're given.
@@niharshastri3519 cry? Listen to yourself its embarrassing. You're probably about 12 and live with your mum still. Come out the basement and get some education little boy and then come back when you can talk like an adult. Cheerio
This game was the first game I have ever really cried on. That porch scene brung me to tears. It wasn't a perfect game, but for sure an amazing game. What game is perfect. The sequal did not disappoint.
Ashley’s background looking like imma do some weapon upgrades on the table
😂😂😂😂😂😂
She is ellie after all
Yes! 😂🤣👌💦
58:04 Also Kevin accidentally flipped her video when Troy left lol
What does "imma" mean?
To me it was pretty clear that Joel saying he would do it all over again in the final flashback was about as close to an "I love you" that we would get.
It's like him saying that no matter what he lost or what he will loose in the process, it doesn't matter. He got to spend time with her. He got another chance at being a father. He found something worth living for and he gave everything to make it last. So yeah.. it's his "I love you".
And its meant to make the players and ellie feel better about him dying, he did what he needed to do to save ellie and now she's safe.
TheGamingEcstasy like the trophy.. not matter what
i think ellie did the same to dina. she loves dina but she cannot choose not to leave. but shes doing it for her so she cant cause any more grief and pain or harm to dina and jj with her insomnia and nightmares.
@@TheGamingEcstasy Am I the only one who also thought about Riley words from left behind during that scene “we fight, for every second we get to spend with each other, whether it's two minutes or two days we don't give that up”. Joel knows he's not a good person for what he has done but he'll do it again if that means spending even one more day with Ellie.
The real question is what did Dina do with all those sheep?
Back to the streets
She and JJ ate them. Where do you think JJ got those chubby cheeks from? RIP Snowy.
My sister was asking the same thing lol
Food?
There was a lot of dead plants, I assume there's also a lot of dead sheep
I think it’s interesting that Abby is saved because of Ellie’s need for vengeance. If Ellie doesn’t go off and try to kill Abby then Abby and Lev don’t get saved from the Rattlers. It’s a reverse of the first game. Joel does a bad thing out of love, whereas Ellie does a good thing out of hate. That was a very good use of irony.
SO true
I didn't think about it that way! So true!
I just finished the game last night. That ending, that scene, was so powerful. Note that when she was so ready to kill Abby she had her FIRST non-death memory flash of Joel since leaving Seattle. And we then see that full memory, where Ellie says to him "I don't know if I can forgive you for what you did...but I'm willing to try". And THAT is what she did with Abby. She took that moment with Joel, that final conversation she had with him, and did to Abby what she was willing to do to Joel.
SO GOOD. The ending had sadness to it, but in the end I was so proud of Ellie. I see hope in the future for her.
This is a really good point. I didn’t think of it that way!!
BlitzGirl oh shit I totally missed that. Thank you for pointing out the parallel between Joel and Abby when it comes to “I’m willing to try.”
Game: *shows you the doctor was her dad* me: *remembers I killed the doctor with the flame thrower*
This was exactly how I felt when 8 saw it
Yeah if someone killed my Dad with a flamethrower I'd do what Abby did but even worse
@@stephensporman8206 Ahhh... But your dad would have deserved it because higher beings were playing the guy who flamethrew your dad to save a girl and doom humanity, and those higher beings have a blind attachment to that person. So if some dimwitted higher beings start playing you on your quest for revenge, be prepared to die a million deaths cause they hate you.
@@nickv1212 Sounds justified to me.
@@DevilDriverMGO To save one girl and let the world be the way it is so all other people can suffer the fates they'll suffer in that world? You know there are other children in this world, right? And because of Joel, they'll continue to live in this world.
All people. And all stories. That's what the whole game is about. That's why it's littered with notes left by people telling a little bit about their story and how they're still trying to cling on to their humanity. That's why we get to see the other side. That's why they've gone to such lengths to make the enemies seem real in gameplay. It all feeds back into the fact that regardless of what they've done, these are all human beings trying to survive. Some go down to some awful places and become terrible people, but even still, they're people. The game asks you, are you willing to become a terrible person to get revenge?
All of the people mad that Ellie didn't kill Abby kinda scare me. Abby literally loses everyone she knows and loves except one person she just met and then she becomes a slave for months and is left to die for possibly days. If on your quest for revenge you find out the person you've been after has been reduced to that and you still want to kill them. Then you're a terrible fucking person. Ellie's a terrible fucking person, but ultimately, she had to save what's left of her humanity.
Wait, did Troy Baker really leave the interview early? Damn it Troy, the games out now, weve played it. Stop being in character.
The method acting is so real
Hahaha!!
He probably have to quit to play golf
@cyllan3 If you played the game, you'd realize Joel is actually in it a decent bit.
@@bumduckegypt2110 ohh yea because 2hrs in a 20+hrs long game is a good bit
I cried seeing joel tear up knowing that his daughter was willing to give him a chance eventually
that scene was the first piece of media that's made me cry like a little baby in 6 years thanks for highlighting it :)
@ThatDamnScottishGuy lol thank you captain obvious. That's the sadness of that scene.
The loss of the reconciliation was absolutely part of the fuel that drove Ellie's vengence. Any flash back to Joel wasn't just a reminder of him, it was a reminder that she never got to tell him she forgave him.
@ThatDamnScottishGuy 😭😭
@@johnluvsluna But she still didnt avenge him. Even though once again she went through hell got stabbed by a tree and had the kill right there in front of her.
I feel Ellie felt powerless. She was there but powerless to prevent Joels death. When she first faced Abby in the theatre she loses and is powerless to avenge Joel (or Jessie or Tommy) and can only plead for Dina's life. The difference for Abby is this time she listens thanks to her relationship with Lev and she spares them. I feel that is her redemption. But Ellie is still left powerless. It's only when Ellie finally defeats Abby and has the power to kill her she is able to choose not to. The tragedy is the cost to everyone involved. The irony is if she'd been able to let it go and stay with Dina at the farm Abby and Lev would have died on the pillars.
ugh. it's sooo good..
@@StayFractalesque His comment?
Why would she leave the farm anyways? And why did Tommy do a 180 to try and make her leave? Also why did Tommy leave before Ellie at the beginning of the game lol, he knew she was going regardless. Why hinder the both of you like that? Also he didn't even want to go. And sorry, Abby not killing Ellie after almost relishing in the thought of killing a pregnant woman, isn't enough redemption for me. According to your logic, this whole game was a dominance play on both sides, and Ellie gave up everything to so she could be superior. Also what exactly in your opinion is stopping Ellie from killing abby? The cycle of violence? Why endulge throughout the whole game, with both characters and make Ellie the only one to regret her actions? If revenge is a thing in this universe, realistically, Joel should have had half of America after him in Jackson considering how many bodies he piled up in the first game.
Sadly, people will see it differently and they won't even consider opinions like ours for discussion. As long as we say that it's not that good of a game, Sony and their paid reviewers will keep hijacking the user score until eventually it'll be a 10/10. Might as well call them People's Republic of Sony.
Great points Bruce.
Ashley's room gives anyone else serious Ellie vibes? lol i love it
Azerrz!? My man you here!?
What a legend
She even looked like she's cosplaying Ellie
Damn right man
It's a green screen background. It's not her actual room
I could listen to Ashley Johnson talk all day. My brain can’t quite fathom hearing Ellie’s voice coming out of a real woman’s mouth hahah
Wait till I tell you that she was in The Avengers
And if ya like D&D, look up Critical Roll.. she plays Pike in campaign 1 and Yasha in campaign 2
Mr. Waffles WHAT
@@AhoyKatie dude she has her own TV show called Blindspot, check it out.
@@AhoyKatie yeah she's the waitress at the end who says to the news "Captain America saved my life"
I love how dedicated Ashley and Troy were to these characters. Beautiful.
They need an award asap
Yea troy was so dedicated he even recorded extra lines for a trailer just to mislead people, so much dedication.
@@r0ger80 nope they don't.
Ashley did such a fuckin incredible job. Nobody else on the planet could play Ellie.
I bet Troy feels crappy deep down like he got such a terrible ending to a great character. Imagine Rick Grimes tripping and falling off a cliff in Season 5 of The Walking Dead and dying just like that
37:30 The part where Ellie screams "JOEL GET UP!" was the most emotional for and best for me. I really felt it coming from the heart.
I love that it mirrors the winter scene in the first game where he falls off the horse and Ellie's trying to get him back up. Even now, after all these years of being estranged, Ellie still needs Joel. Like she said to Sam, her biggest fear is ending up alone. For all intents and purposes, Joel is her father, and Ellie has operated as half of a highly close-knit duo for years. You can see her fighting for her independence from him in the early game, and that's what I find so tragic about his death. Ellie was so co-dependent that nothing short of Joel dying was going to kick her character forward in that manner. I'm usually the first to call bullshit on character deaths as cheap plot devices, but this wasn't cheap. The scene was so powerful, so raw, that it left me a sobbing angry mess just like Ellie.
It’s the “please stop” that gets me.
It's cool how Troy changes his voice to sound like Joel so when you hear him talk in podcasts you don't really hear the similarities, but Ashley's natural voice sounds so much like Ellie that if you look away while listening it's like the character is talking.
Yeah Ashley is basically Ellie
If I remember correctly, she also made Ellie the character she is today. She was written less "heroic" at first but Ashley changed all that during production, basically.
Lol that's cause it Ellie's voice is her voice she didn't change it any for the character
@@joerule47 Yeah, that's the point.
Minecraft Story Mode is ruined for me :(
Troy getting emotional worrying about Ashley during the death scene is so wholesome. These two can stand out as my 2 favorite picks in video game actors. Seriously, they are so freaking awesome!
timestamp??
@@valentino-gw7ms around 22:30
She played a small role in the first captain america movie
They’re so emotionally attached to these amazing characters. Hope we see more from them.
@@kylealexander7024 it's the avengers you're thinking of, she was the waitress cap saved in new York who was later interviewed
An awesome spoilercast like this deserves TIME STAMPS. Please like if useful.
00:00 - Intros
01:00 - Dr Uckmann “Controversy”
01:35 - Ads for KF
03:00 - “Future Days” as the connective tissue of the game / “One Night Live” Event
06:34 - When did you know you’d come back to TLoU?
09:00 - Was there hesitation coming back? (Ashley)
11:06 - Was there hesitation coming back? (Troy)
13:47 - Is Joel’s character on a pedestal from Part 1? (Neil)
15:16 - Joel in Part 2 vs Part 1 and criticism from audience about Joel (Neil)
16:20 - Criticism of Joel (Troy)
18:48 - Respecting the character, “deserving” death in the world of TLoU (Neil)
19:24 - Ellie as Protagonist and Ashley as Lead in Part 2 (Ashley)
21:58 - Preparing for The Scene (Troy) (a Must Watch)
24:30 - “Nobody loves this character more than me…except maybe Troy Baker”
(Neil Interlude)
24:46 - Preparing for The Scene (Troy) Continued
25:38 - Directing and Prepping The Scene, Conversations with troy and Joel’s thought process (Neil)
28:18 - "There is only so much prep." Caring deeply about and as the characters (Ashley)
30:22 - Evoking dread/anger and being uncomfortable (Neil)
31:38 - Leaks and Death in context (Neil)
32:09 - Watching the Leaks in Real Time and the lack of context (Neil)
38:02 - Was the game a hard sell for PlayStation? (Neil)
39:53 - What Is the Message of Part 2 for you? (Greg)
40:32 - What Is the Message of Part 2 for you? (Ashley)
42:38 - What is the Message of Part 2 for you? Obsession, Sins of The Father, in conversation and a continuation of Part 1 (Troy)
46:13 - What Is the Message of Part 2 for you? In conversation with Part 1, Love - best and worst aspects, human decisions and ego (Neil)
47:29 - Multiple Interpretations (Greg)
48:49 - Listener Q: Symbolism of the moths (Neil)
50:15 - Symbolism of Light and Dark…and why is Abby so jacked??? (Greg)
51:48 - Answer. (Neil)
52:21 - Abby’s life purpose was not to kill Joel (Neil)
52:55 - Joel and Abby’s arcs are similar. A story of redemption. (Neil)
53:22 - Doing the Flashbacks - non linearly especially the Museum (Troy)
55:49 - Doing the Flashbacks - nostalgia and sadness (Ashley)
57:29 Bye Troy
58:15 - Recording capsule scene in the museum/ father daughter moments(Neil and Ashley)
1:01:20 - How long have Joel and Ellie not spoken to each other (Salt Lake City to Barn scene)? (Greg)
1:03:50 - Porch Scene (no hug) (Neil)
1:05:30 - Listen Q - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Greg)
1:06:57 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Ashley)
1:07:30 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson?(Neil)
1:08:25 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Ashley continued)
1:09:10 - Is Ellie returning to Jackson? (Greg continued)
1:10:55 - “Ellie’s obsession with Abby is like a drug addict” and letting go of the addiction (Neil) (Must Watch)
1:11:37 - Interpretation of Ending as a Revenge Story: Ellie and Abby’s actions (Ashley)
1:13:03 - Interpretation of Ending as a Revenge Story: Ellie and Abby’s actions (Neil)
1:13:45 - "There is no Right answer." Criticism of the ending (Neil)
1:14:15 - Listener Q: What was the decision around the ending of the game? (Revenge is hollow?)
1:17:00 - Answer: Abby v Ellie (Neil) (Must Watch)
1:18:10 - Listener Q : Too dark? Seeing the best and worst in humanity (Neil)
1:20:01 - Why make us play as Abby? (Greg)
1:20:40 - Answer (Neil)
1:21:45 - Characters making the choices that the player doesn’t want them to make (Greg)
1:23:08 - Ellie is trying to be Joel …and she isn’t. Being inside Ellie's head (game play v cut scene). Alignment of player and character (Neil)
1:24:40 - Playing Ellie - her choices and motivation as an actor and playing PTSD (Ashley)
1:26:50 - Joel, Ellie and Abby’s arcs parallel - “Quieting inner demons and trauma” (Neil)
1:27:30 - Abby saves Ellie. “There is no relief” (Ashley)
1:30:11 - Where did the character of Abby come from? (Neil)
1:31:56 - How Laura Bailey came to be Abby. (Neil)
1:35:17 - Listener Q: Why was there such an effort not to talk about Abby early in reviews/spoilercasts? Was not done by or for PR (Neil)
1:38:50 - Listener Q : Character of Lev and included a trans character? Addressing criticism and use of dead name (Neil)
1:42:48 - Listener Q : Favourite moment to shoot? Grow House sequence with Dina and porch scene with Joel (Ashley). Shannon Woodward shout out
1:44:11 - Don’t forget Neil’s “sex scene” (trolls)
1:44:20 - Listener Q : Favourite moment to shoot? Porch scene with Joel (Neil)
1:45:15 - Listener Q : Favourite moment to shoot? Ellie and Tommy scene after Joel’s death (Ashley continued) Jeffery Pierce shout out
1:45:38 - Tommy and Ellie’s final scene and mirroring (Neil)
1:47:15 - Listener Q : “Take On Me” moment. Why that song. Making amazing moments optional (Neil)
1:49:14 - RETURN OF THE VITA
1:49:58 - Listener Q : “Future Days” release date vs outbreak?
1:50:40 - Listener Q : What does new menu screen mean after finishing the game?
1:51:41 - Listener Q: Are there plans for DLC?
1:52:30 - Listener Q : Anna/Abby/Pregnant women comic book mix-up
1:53:20 - Listener Q: Was Ellie secretly Joel's hairdresser?
1:54:10 - Steimer Q: Why does Owen not notice Abby’s injury (noose)?
1:55:35 - Laura Bailey is awesome and deserves some good vibes sent her way.
1:56:13 - Thanks to Neil and Ashley.
Thanks for hosting this show Greg. I think it's the best from KF yet!
Also for the life of me, I could not make out what Ashley meant when talking about her favourite scene. Specifically when talking about a (???) House scene, followed by the porch scene with Joel? Please inform and I'll correct it.
Also might be off by 1 sec cos its by third time watching and it had to be at 1.5x speed🙃
@@CharlemangeRoarke (Grow) House
You the real mvp
You're a crazy man
@@bamasmurph It needed to be done. 😳
25:51 That's a Ashley cry! Ellie did the same gesture when Tommy came over and talked to her before they left for Seattle! It's so stealthy yet so real. I saw that and I said wow that's how real human cry. Now I know the performances are real deal.
Bruce L wow I thought I was the only one who caught that!
*an
Mind blown.
This is why despite how I wanted to the story to play, was still a very real possible scenario. It just wasn’t the one I think alot wanted.
Wow! A good catch, she actually did that same thing in the game. I actually tear up when I watch Troy and Ashley talk about that scene. It is great to see how emotionally connected they are for these characters. For me Troy is Joel and especially Ashley is Ellie and they have put their heart and soul into these characters and they are honoring their legacy over Joel and Ellie.
Ashley tearing up talking about the Joels death scene is everything. These characters mean so much to them.
Well, all of them except Neil.
@@dh2266 lol exactly
@@dh2266 Memes aside, I think if you pay attention at all to this interview, you can definitely tell that's not the case.
So the guy that has been almost two decades working to bring life to those characters, care less for them than some random baby in the internet that can't stand the possibility of people dying.
Good.
@@darkblade_113 really? I found the opposite. They mentioned again and again how they lied and deceived the fans to protect the story. Look at what they did to Joel. Neil's words say he cares about Joel but actions say otherwise. To kill in this fashion but more importantly so soon in the game says he doesn't care.
At the end of the day he intentionally made a game that he knew would be divisive. Make divisive games win divisive prizes.
Hearing Ashley talk about how she felt about Joel's death I started to tear up and literally see the whole scene again
Injustice...
Same here. Except I started crying and couldn't stop--had to pause & come back later. I think I have PTSD from this experience. (It's hard to just refer to it as a game.)
I'm just thinking about Tommy. In the first game he told Joel he had nothing but nightmares from what they did as hunters.
Then in this game he used everything Joel taught him to kill all those WLF members.
Tommy saved himself from a life of misery and Joel's death brought out that past. And that's why Maria left him.
Now when I look at Tommy all I see is Joel.
It would be cool if they make a dlc where we play as him
@@imamazing4333 I was thinking the same thing. Kinda like left behind from LOU1 but we get to play as Tommy slaughtering all of the wlf and seeing is mental decline.
Beautifully said
Tommy knew Joel's Big Secret and he knew WHY Joel was killed. Given Joel's past and the importance of Maria, Jackson and the community, he would _never_ leave on a revenge mission. Also, he wouldn't leave Ellie if she wanted to pursue revenge, PLUS she was arguably one of their best rangers. Druckmann didn't want Tommy and Ellie to go on a revenge quest together so he made him a lone wolf. Why? Because he wanted Ellie and her (brand new) girlfriend to go together.
@@sunnysied713 dang, when i think about you are correct... would have been cool Ellie and Tommy on revenge quest
9:56 it's interesting how Ashley was worried about leaning on troy for Part II; because it's a lot like how Ellie actually feels before and definitely after Abby's revenge. the parallels are poetic
The journal entry Ellie has where she dwells on Joel's final thoughts is pretty damn sad. Whether it hurt him more to have her see that, or that it comforted him to have her there in his final moments. I didn't even think about that until I read it and felt pretty gutted. They handled Ellie's grief really well imo.
Yup, that entry was really sad to think about. I think it probably hurt him more. And he knew Ellie would want revenge, even though I dont think Joel would have wanted he to go on that path.
@@SkemeKOS I agree, and Joel himself dealed with grief in a different manner than her: instead of searching for that military guy that killed Sarah, he simply detached himself from human relationships and went in a cold blooded path as a hunter.
Leonardo Diniz Wait didn’t Tommy kill the soldier that killed Sara? Pretty sure he did, unless you meant the one who he got the orders from to kill them.
@@wilsinhodfs dude, c'mon. That guy got shot in the face already, not much revenge you can take out on a corpse.
@@TrashyJayys Yeah, I wasn't clear in my statement, I'm referring to the general/captain who gave the order
Can we just acknowledge how Ashley Johnson is coming up to 37 years old. She looks 20 haha
and troy baker is 44, doesn't look like it either lol.
Holy shitballs. Hahahah
In before some douche is like "herpaderp, surgery botox" etc, the usual envy shit.
@@thorbre577 I do think she got a nose job at some point. Regardless of what she or hasn't done the results are stunning. She is incredibly beautiful.
And ahe plays a 14 and 19 year old
"Take on me" was actually the most emotional moment for me, it's insane to me that it could be passed by but that somehow makes me appreciate it more.
I had a huge smile of my face when that happened, it was so damn good. And then realizing I could go "practice" on the guitar and literally play guitar with my touchpad, amazing.
i missed it. :(
Me too! Check out the unplugged version of that song! Literally just search take on me unplugged MTV. If you haven't heard it already ghaaaaa. Lemme know what you think.
Only causals who played the game ok easy mode missed it.
I played it on survival so I scavenge every inch of every location. I pretty sure most people didn’t find Drakes Necklace in the bank.
@@H.E.M. I played on Survival also, I've never even played either game lower than that. But I feel like survival mode in 2 is a lot more forgiving than 1. I never had full anything in 1 on survival, but there were multiple times in 2 where I had full ammo for a few guns and full medkits way too often. I love the gameplay, but I wish I could make the resources even more sparse so it'd feel more thrilling.
6:00 joel girlfriend
14:37 joel trust on abby why?
18:10 joel realice he is dead
40:00 the game's message
42:32 part 3 confirm??
46:00 the game's message for neil
49:00 the moth meaning
1:08:00 the other end of the game
1:24:00 ellie compared to joel
1:30:00 tommy joel hunters and kill abbys dad
1:32:00 abbys cast
1:39:00 lev sexuality
1:46:00 tommy final scene
1:48:00 take on me
1:50:00 joel song of the beginning
1:51:00 abby get to the fireflies new menu
1:51:00 dlc or multiplayer
1:53:00 abby was anna ellies mum
Thank you so much dude
Thank you so much mate
Thanks bud......appreciated
Goddammit, you're a beautiful beautiful human
Hero
Shoutout to the timestamps though ... whoever sat down to timestamp every topic, thank you.
I think that well play as joel in part 3, showing that he didnt actually die, that would be so fucking mindblowing
Nakkiolololo that would be so awesome
@@nakkiolololo4581 Na he should stay dead.
If anything, a new IP would be best. Give people time to digest pt II and appreciate the story they were given.
@@nakkiolololo4581 that would be bullshit if they bring him back
It would be like "yeah we killed him brutally in the second part but now he's back by a miracle cause u all hated that"
Also they buried him
@@radiospines completely agree. Go for a new IP and if they want to go back to the last of us either go with Abby and Liv or a completely new story. Maybe just after day 0 would be cool
God, just listening to Troy and Ashley and how emotional they get over these characters, I just love them both so much
Too bad Troy didn't tell them how much of a horrible mistake they were making
I love Troy lol I don’t see much of Ashley but she’s Ellie so I like her too
MrSwitchblade327 it’s not mistake , get over it people .
I can barely even watch it, making me tear up lmao
@@controversialgaming1364 Yeah sure... The majority of the metacritic user reviews is pissed off with no reason. Not to mention the democracy with Metacritic deleting and even not allowing bad reviews. Also, i don't remember something similar with the first game... Now that's odd.
“Ellie is trying so hard to be Joel...but she isn’t” is the most understated aspect of this game that critics don’t acknowledge. They ask why Ellie sacrifices everything for this quest, but they don’t realize she’s immitating the very character whose death they were angry at.
well said, adding this to the list of reasons I love this game
Bruh i didnt see it that way 🤯
She even makes note to Tommy of that same sentiment, but at the same time:
1) She also uses Joel as an avenue to reach the mentality of forgiveness
2) She was Joel's moral compass a number of times in TLOU, so we know she's not Joel
It feels like you can't use Joel as a reason to fight for the quest, especially after the theater fight, and a reason to stop the quest, the flashback. It also feels that Ellie's character over 5 years has gone through more change than Joel did over his 20 year flash forward in TLOU 1. My suspension of disbelief is trying, but I'm having issues.
@@blackmanwhitesuit
1. Because she wanted to forgive Joel, there were two sides of him. The man who survived and the dad we see in the flashback. Just because she uses Joel as a way of forgiveness doesn't mean she definitely didn't try to act like the worst parts of him to get revenge.
2. And duh, but here she's trying to be because he died but she's not. She'll fight to survive but she can't murder like he did.
She was 14 in 1, and 19 in this game. On top of all the last of us stuff, that's when people go through some of the biggest changes in their life. Becoming an adult, on top of dealing with Joel's lie and the usual last of us stuff.
Facts and I think at the very end she realized this and saw that last hopeful scene with Joel. That’s why she stopped. She also forgave Joel and Abby that moment and realize she didn’t have a purpose in her life. Before her purpose was to save the world, that would gave her death meaning. She’s been waiting for a way to die but towards the end she left everything in the house behind which means she’s finally moving on. This story is so deep and up to many interpretations
It truely breaks my heart to see how effected Ashley and Troy are emotionally and mentally. The actors have the best connection to their characters...more then us. So every character decision and expression is either yay or nay no matter how the creators direct it. Love these two
Troy tearing up talking about shooting that scene got me
EDIT: And then Ashley oh my god
If you’re interested in knowing more about what they are talking about, you should check out Ashley’s episode of Between The Sheets if you haven’t seen it.
All the people who say that the director and cast don't care about the characters should really watch this video.
Volture these people pour their hearts out and spend years dedicated to these characters and now arm chair directors are trying to tell these artists how they should act
@@ca20mn Exactly, it's a real shame. The sad thing is that a lot of people just mindlessly take on popular opinions (like devs not caring about characters for example) without having finished their own playthrough.
It's almost like he's an ACTOR!
The flashback to Ellie's final conversation with Joel could suggest that Ellie's need for revenge is sparked by her own guilt for not having forgiven Joel before he died. Alternatively, Ellie may have been ready to begin forgiving Joel but was never given the opportunity.
However, the flashback to Ellie suggesting that she will eventually forgive Joel also prevented her from killing Abby. Perhaps it reminded her that she is capable of mercy, and if she forgave Joel, she could forgive Abby too.
This game is awesome (:
V For Vendetta that’s dumb she forgave Joel Because he meant something to her, the only thing she knew about Abby was that she brutally murdered Joel
Shanah Morgan yup true she didnt know anything about abby. Maybe ellie letting abby go is her way of finally realizing that violence only begets more violence and is pointless because an act of forgiveness is what her heart needed/wanted all along
Here's my take: The hatred that Ellie feels for Abby is an externalized reflection of the hatred Ellie harbors for herself. Why? Well Joel deeply hurt both Abby and Ellie in different ways and they both punished him for it. Ellie hates Abby for torturing Joel to death, especially because she didn't get a chance to restore her relationship with Joel. This is a mirror because Ellie also tortured Joel, she did it for years but in a different way, and I'd say in a way that was more painful for Joel, and that was by disconnecting from him. She hates herself for torturing him like that and not restoring their relationship when there was still time. That's the real pain she has been trying to avoid facing during this entire revenge quest, she's like a drug addict using revenge to avoid dealing with those painful feelings of regret. This is the realization she has while she is drowning Abby when she has the flashback to the scene on the porch with Joel and chooses to spare Abby. She's not just forgiving Abby, she's really most importantly forgiving herself and finally coming to terms with what happened between her and Joel, I think her leaving his guitar to rest in the house and walking away is supposed to symbolically represent that she has forgiven Joel, made peace with what happened between them and is finally ready to move on and start a new life. I hated the end at first but after much deliberation I think it's actually really poetic. People saying the game is just about "revenge is bad" I think have really missed the point.
EXACTLY HOW IS NO ONE GETTING THAT THE FLASHBACK SHOWS THE ARC IS ABOUT GUILT?
They're emotional attachment to both their characters and performances have always given me the utmost respect for them. It makes it even more okay to cry watching these events unfold within the story. Such incredible actors and director man.
Do a joel voice!!!
Cough cough you do voices
*DO JOEL VOICE TROLLING IN MULTIPLAYER*
Voice trolling
Almutairi bruh trolling in factions would be amazing
Another question I wish they'd discussed:
"What was the thinking behind making the player control Abby, rather than Ellie, during the Abby/Ellie theatre battle?"
I personally felt so conflicted I could barely concentrated, and when I failed and was killed by Ellie, I admit that some part of me was deeply satisfied. Which, in itself, made me feel conflicted. Anyone else?
YES. You are not alone there for sure. I was conflicted throughout the entire game! But I think that’s what made it so freakin good and so emotional. So.many.feelings.
@@merritthenderson889 Not really, it's the same as Fahrenheit: Indigo Prophecy, they make you play characters with conflicting interests.
The difference being that David Cage let you choose a side and continue the narrative.
I was very conflicted about trying to kill Ellie during that battle. I even remember saying I don't want to do this. But as the battle went on (over multiple attempts) I found myself more and more wanting to kill Ellie. Almost like I was getting into Abby's POV. It was a bizarre feeling.
I think that was a superb choice in using gameplay to add to the narrative and evoke emotion. When have you ever played against a boss and thought, fuck, I want to lose, I hope I’m supposed to lose and it triggers a cutscene, but nope, you’re forced to win. It was especially refreshing that she was actually using all her skills such as the bombs. That being said, I didn’t necessarily love it, at least what the outcome was, but i appreciated their boldness
Totally agree. I definitely purposely let Ellie kill me to feel better before thinking that I would have to kill Ellie
Lmaooo I’m sorry I can’t stop laughing at the picture of Troy. He just looking at Ashley upset at everything she’s saying. Great job Kev 😂
More like he was looking at Nolan in that pic 😂🤣🤣
Geez, it's so hard to hear Ashley say : "I cared about Joel", because you hear Ellie
I know 🥺
No, all I hear is Terra and Gwen Tennyson.
Where
@thanh nam nguyen 29:00
That got to me so much 😢
I was literally screaming " I am sorry I am sorry" while fighting Ellie in the theatre. My mom then walked in and thought I was crazy.
In the theater, at the end and when Ellie interrogated Nora I attempted to avoid each of the conflicts. This game was rough.
Same, I was freaking out that entire time! I made Abby get hit with the machete more than once on purpose
Same !! And I was screaming at my TV like "How dare you make this fight a parallel to when we fight David as Ellie !! Down to the damn machete..." haha. I love this game very much though, even in tough moments like this
Nanoshcematic and that’s why people hate the game: yelling at a game until mom comes in... while being over 30.
I felt so uncomfortable using Ellie to fight abby at the end.. Everytime i pressed square i died a little on the inside.. Cutting abby like that did not make me feel good.. So glad ellie let her go
"The point in this world is whether you're a hero or villain, it doesn't matter. This doesn't dictate how you die". This is what makes it realistic and great.
Realistic....? What?
Joel died precisely because he was the villain in someone else's eyes. Had he not done what he did in the hospital, and had he just stayed out of trouble altogether and lived peacefully, he wouldn't have been killed the way he was. Neil fails to see this flaw in his point.
@@gilGames82 joel wasnt staying out of trouble and living peacefully prior to meeting ellie in the first game. The first scene with tess and joel is tess coming back from doing a deal for ration cards for pills (I assumed it was a drug deal but it could also be interpreted as a deal for meds). Joel was supposedly involved in a lot of shady deals with shady people as a black market smuggler.
@@gilGames82 How did Neil fail to see that? He wrote Abby's perspective after all. For every main characters you can argue from both side aka they're good/ bad, but It's doesn't matter because death will come for them all the same.
I disagree. To me, that just makes it a nihilistic misery wank. Neil made this game like DC makes movies; they seem to think making it dark and edgy also makes it profound, and it doesn't.
Joel's death is all shock value masquerading as something more. It's like Neil thinks "And, like, sometimes people just die, man." is philosophic revelation. It doesn't say anything. It exists to elicit an emotional response, not to express something meaningful.
Neil wanted to make The Road and ending up making A Siberian Film. It's oppressively bleak and brutal but says very little with the bleakness and brutality and feels very much reminiscent of teenagers who think swearing and violence in movies makes them more mature.
This is the first time I’ve ever seen Ashley’s face, and noticing that she’s the person that said “Captain America saved my life” in The Avengers just blew my mind.
No way... that's her?! 🤯
@@will_da_man_ yea it was her.... I was surprised when I saw her for last us Part 1 interview..cuz I recognised her from that
She had an extended sequence from the first avengers movie with that character that was cut from the final release
I knew her from this show called blindspot
She's also the little girl in Lionheart.
53:06
*Joel leaves early*
Ashley: "NOOOO!"
Dr. Uckmann: *smiles and drinks*
I hate u😂😂
Oh no
Lol😂
Imagine if Neil suddenly spit into a trash can soon after. Mann..these method actors really don’t know when to quit? 😂
@Neo DeOne yikes
I think that last flashback cutscene with Joel and Ellie on the night before Abby kills Joel, so it's their last conversation is crucial in driving home why his death affected Ellie so badly. The earlier flashback when she had her big fight with Joel which was 2 years prior to the start of the game implies she hasn't spoken to him in those 2 years and then the barn dance happens, she kisses Dina and that bigoted homophobic idiot has a go and Joel steps in to defend them. Then Joel and Ellie's reconciliation that night. So she was at a place where they were going to try and repair their relationship and then Abby kills him and robs her of that makes his death all that more impactful on her.
As for the ending, in my mind Eliie goes on the road for a few months and does a lot of soul searching, contemplates suicide on a number of occasions. But her love of painting and music helps her through, expressing her emotions through both art forms, until she gets to a place where she's ready to try and reconcile with Dina and they slowly rebuild their relationship where they eventually move on and live happily together. That's what I like to think happened after the credits rolled.
Lets hope so. At least then something would’ve come out of the story
bbuutt tthhee aaggeennddaa..
jk. perfectly said.
Just wished that all the flashbacks weren't flashbacks and we got some naturally progressing time to spend with him. Would have felt more impactful to have gone through all of that prior to his demise so his death was more gutwrenching. Don't get me wrong I was sad to see it happen. But it kind of felt rushed in my opinion. Like "that just happened" and the rest of the game is "this is why we did that". Instead of building up suspense before hand and then having it happen where we understand it, and hate it at the same time. Red wedding style. I already understood that revenge was bad from almost every basic action movie/game of the last decade. By the way this game goes about it, all of your actions have consequences right? Like killing abby at the end would have, say, restarted the cycle w lev? How many fucking revenge cycles has Ellie started within her own? Jesus why wait until you almost kill her to let her go, after you spent the ENTIRE GAME indiscriminately murdering random people that had nothing to do with Joel to begin with. And if anything a vision of Joel would have inspired me to murder her more lol, a glimpse of what I lost because of you after you murdered everyone I care about and bit off my fingers? Yeah sorry your dead man. I get what they were going for but if Ellie is forced to feel remorse than why not Abbie? At no point does Abby in the game ever regret ANYTHING, a direct comparison is Ellie and Abbie's reaction to killing pregnant people (fuck Mel btw). Ellie's is to drop to the ground and throw up, Abby's is to say "goooood" like a cartoon villian getting his rocks off. Even Joel was never that blatantly evil, and he had a redemption arc. Abby doesn't. Whatever man it's just my opinion though don't read too much into it I guess.
@@titsmcgee4697 But that would have missed the point of the whole thing. Ellie REMEMBERING some of her most important memories of Joel (good and bad) made those flashbacks SO much more powerful. Knowing that those happy moments (like in the museum) would never come back or that their broken relationship might never get mended (before seeing the last flashback) made all those scenes way more impactful. Its the whole point of this structure.
And Abby feels BAD about it. Obviously she doesn't regret killing him, but she doesn't move on. Thats pretty obvious in her scene with Owen in the boat, where he talks about searching for and then brutally killing th epeople that killed his family and she reacts in an extremely aggressive way.
Abby doesn't mind killing a pregnant Dina, because she is raging and thinks that Ellie KNOWINGLY killed Mel, who was pregnant. Abby doesn't know that Ellie was unaware of that fact and might have not killed Mel.
Ellie NEEDS that last fight to even have a chance of forgiving Abby. Think about it. Every other encounter between the two was Abby DOMINATING Ellie, making her feel helpless oder weak. Ellie needed to have Abbys life in her hands, so that she could actually make a choice.
Abby shows us how revenge, even when successful, does not make the trauma/ptsd/nightmares disappear. Tommy shows us later on that not being able to let go makes you bitter, crippled and alone. Ellie learns that lesson in the final fight, loosing fingers, being alone BUT at least she got her humanity back and more importantly forgave Joel and HERSELF
@@X5J2UY fuck, man. You're on absolute point with this. It's really disheartening that so many people dont see this because they only see the game with a shallow lense.
This was so good! I was lucky to have completely avoided spoilers and went into the game blind. So to hear the director and actors of the main characters break it down and reaffirm things I picked up on and appreciated during my play through was so satisfying. Getting their thoughts on the story is so special! Thanks hosting this podcast, I’ve never seen your content before but this was great!
Is anyone going to point out the irony that Troy had to leave early just like Joel
Lmao yet 😭😭😭
Spot on😂
I was thinking the exact same thing 😂
LOL I think he did that on purpose
They even put a black and white photo of Troy like in memoriam
"If you haven't beat The last of us part 2 ..."
Well
i would say it beat me but go on
That was funny! 🤣🤣
it beat me, in a good way
That's funny lol also very true
Yes, I think we were all beaten with the Feels...
Yeah that's true. Did any find any true enjoyment from this game?
Man, I'm glad I heard this. Didn't like every decision made in this game, but I really did enjoy and appreciate their genuine thoughts. Weirdly feel like I have some closure.
Havent watched it, but i feel the same way about the game and ive been wanting to hear neal talking about the decisions that he made. and give context to all of the parts open to interpretation
In the same boat as you - I feel like I need to hear it from their side to get closure on how I feel about certain aspects of the story.
I've been struggling to come to terms with this game for two days since finishing it.
I say that as someone who wasn't spoiled by leaks and who liked and supported Abby during her quest. But I still couldn't grasp why Ellie was left where she was or why they would do this to her and Joel.
But I think I can now fully accept and appreciate why they told this story.
This video was so important to me to get closure on the game. I just wonder how many people will be left empty, who won't search out or find this video or similar discussions with Neil and cast.
Kicktugo55 it’s funny cause that statement sums up the game itself
exactly...
To those who hate the game because of Joel's death:
As a wise man once said; "I know you wish things were different, I wish things were different. But they ain't."
And other wise man once said:"you can't change what's done you can only move on"(this line is from the character Arthur Morgan in Red Dead Redemption 2)
@@agustinserrano3727 stop quoting rdr2 yall annoying brats
Man that wise man is joel, oh noo
Man that quote from Joel
"See, there was a sequel. Wasnt as good."
-joel, wiseman.
Realizing now JJ was named after Jesse and Joel. Edit: Guys It could definitely be Jesse jr but me personally I think it’s Jesse Joel and then whatever last name he has 😂. I just feel like dina would’ve added Joel because it would mean a lot to Ellie, but to each their own.
Oh God..
When I was playing that part I really wanted to know if they named the baby after Joel or Ellie and when I heard them call him jj I was like 😆
I kinda hate that...
Brandon S. I kinda hate you
Spiritbomb88 Alright, thanks
Ever since I finished the game I seriously can’t stop thinking about it. It’s all i can think about
I felt the exact same way. I was very empty and felt very ... lost. I’ve had time to process it now and watching this has helped. No game EVER! Has had this impact on me.
@@kristin2491 Thats what food poising is like. Same as bad writing.
i feel you. it really was a haunting game
@@braddl9442 care to elaborate? or just say the same crap that everyone else does. Please.
I feel same
It’s a shame Troy left early. His opinion on the message of the game was eye opening.
@CJ P. Damn!
CJ P. THIS IS TRUE
I love his insight on Joel. It's like Troy is Joel if Joel was able to have a normal life.
Ox_True Protagonist Chris Redfield_Xo don’t believe random TH-cam comments
@omar Morcy Get over it. The game is amazing. I'm sorry you can only see Joel's death and hate everything the game does.
holy shit, I've never seen people that are this passionate about their product
You should watch Battlestar Galactica my friend! The cast was just as passionate about it as the writers and crew. Both of these groups could talk for hours and hours about the symbolism and story that they helped create. The outcome of cast and crews that are passionate is the absolute best.
Simp
I mean they have to be because no one else is passionate about this shit, no one with an appreciation for decent writing
well exept druckmann. he didnt give a shit about the characters
Not the coolwhip
honestly. I laughed when Neil said no one cares more about Joel than he does.
I’m only up to Troys speech about “loving this game selfishly for what you want it to be, but can you love it for what it is.” That was powerful.
If I loved the story for what IT is, then I would have to hold an intervention with all our family and friends in the fandom. The first step is recognizing that the story and writing have major problems. Don't worry, Neil, this is a safe space. We all love you and want your script to be the best script it can be. Lol
I love the first game for what it is. I don't know what the part 2 is.
"NO", this answer seems quite powerful too
@@sunnysied713 you guys are so desperate
@@SolidBoss7 Did you think the story and writing were a masterpiece? It clearly had problems. There were many strengths and weakness about the game. Some fans are either delusional or in denial if they think this game was a 10/10. Lol
This game made me cry, laugh, feel guilt, feel anger, happiness for virtual characters. I’ve never played a game as thematically mature as Part 2. Watching these characters trying to cope with their trauma is genuinely heartbreaking. The journey was rough, the destination is uncertain... as life is, but there’s always hope to keep us going.
Did you even play the first one
@MrCockMan at least respect this conversation we needed this after all the backlash
@MrCockMan Why are you guys so obsessed of destroying any nice conversation? You don't like the game? Fine. But let others have their fun
Adrian Wagner I’ll never get over the irony of ironies that ppl trying to throw toxicity at anyone who appreciated the game do an unbelievably effective job at proving why they told this story. Game was (partially) about how unapologetic toxicity breeds toxicity, pregame I might’ve joined in on it but now I just feel for em. Pain’s on full display with every comment like that, good fkn luck to em
@@TheFreshTrumpet STFU with toxicity, fans has the right to have whatever opinion they have, some of them (most) are angry because they love the first game and joel.
That museum scene broke me. It was amazing
There was a sequel but it wasn't as good
Troy's hair would be a great place to hide some upgrade pills
I wish Ellie and Abby spoke to each other more. Just yelling and venting out their anger would have felt emotionally gripping with them coming to terms with each other's motivations. I would've love to seen Ellie break down and cry after her final encounter with abby and just let all her feelings out.
I said exactly the same thing. Couldn’t agree more
This is my one stand out feeling about the game. Ellie still doesn’t know who Abby is, does she? She has no idea why she did what that to Joel, I was waiting the whole game for Ellie to scream at Abby “why?!” But it never happened. Incredible game though and one will be thinking about for ages
That would've been cheesy.
They will do so in part 3 ;)
Ellie actually knows why. When they meet at the theater.
I remember, in the first game, a very emotional scene with Joel and Ellie, in which he tells her “You have no idea what loss is” and Ellie responds “Everyone I have ever cared for has either died or left me...”
it’s so sad to see this play out in the second game with Joel and Dina. This game is so beautiful. Everyone did an amazing job with it.
despite how legendary this game was, how it was really affected me and touched my soul deeply, from every aspect it has, and despite it’s on the top of my all time favourite games that i’ve ever played alongside the witcher 3, but this game truly planted things in my heart, a beautiful things that i could never imagine being taught from a game, a game was designed to give lessons in life to all of us, about the unconditional love to others and what consequences that could happen when we decide to do things; bad or good, and in the end when we truly achieve and regain our pure beautiful humanity by deciding that peace, forgiveness, and tolerance are the only ways to have a better life, this game has the great potential to change people and societies, never ever imagined in my life that i could cross a game or a movie that made me drop alot of tears and raise up my emotions and affect me even to this very moment after finishing it 4 days ago, all my gratitude and respect to every single person that worked on this masterpiece, thank you so much naughty dog. ❤️
SuperSaiyan3985 😂 Did you come up that legendary comeback all on your own buddy?
@@SuperSaiyan3985 nope that still goes to devil may cry 2. When asked in an interview where does dmc 2 time-line falls in line with the other games they said to just forget about it. It doesn't connect with the main story line 😂 act like it never happened
@@SuperSaiyan3985 best sequel ever
@@SuperSaiyan3985 if you want read this, there is why i love this game. I think its good sequel,but ok its not best sequel, red dead 2 is better as sequel. But tlou 2 follows the idea of first game and gives many new to the franchise.
Thats best game i have ever played, i played many, but none of them, did to me the thing tlou 2 did, i it changed me, made me look at some things from different points, made me think so much, made me feel so much. Now about everything.
Graphics&details
Its most beatifull game i have expirienced on my ps4 pro, it looks amazing and has manyyy small details, ppl make many vids abiut different stuff in tlou 2, even i myself found one, no one has. Abby was standing by trash can, i was just standing there, then she raised her arm just to touch the backback(typical animation), but u know what? Cover of trash can raised as abbys arm raised too, its so fcking awesome.
Gameplay
Its totally amazing on survivor, can't wait to play on harder difficulty (in update), its awesome. Locations are very wide and vertical, many ways to kill ur enemies, many weapons, skills, ways to play one location. A.I. tlou 2 has best a.i. ever, enemies are very smart and unique, they have tactics etc. Its cool. But u know that would be just cool, if not only one thing, athmosphere shiped with storytelling&gameplay
Storytelling
It was amazing in p2. For me.
Before telling need to say that the athmosphere plays not the last role in storytelling and its amazing in part 2. The soundtracks, envoirments, weather. Seattle was so dark and depeessing which made a fcking amazing athmosphere, i was completly drown into the story Charachters talking about their past&future and other stuff look very good, like i was excited to watch film with joel, ellie was talking about. Whole patrol is such a good and u know peacfull chapter, expect killing some infected. Until that thing happens. Won't say anymore about athmosphere, but keep in mind (at least for me) it was very important.
Now about story itself.
Then joels death, that was the best way to make u really want a revenge. Killing some other charachter would have given us no impact, us joels death gave, no such sadness, no such anger. And also important to say that now - you are ellie, bcs u are united by one goal, fucking kill every last one of them.
The more we play as ellie, the more we see a price of revenge, innocent die. But first thing happens in seattle day 2 after torturing nora. Ellie cant belive in the actions she really did, that really hurt me. (Can't not admit the master work from nd, ellie takes off her clothes, i haven't seen this in any other game, all devolepers say its hard af to do such thing, nd are first to do this, as i know)
Then ellie kills mel, you have seen the way she reacts, the more we play, the more we see that revenge doesn't worth it. ellie was in the beggining ready to kill everyone, she almost dod it but as u see, trough the story i felt same emotions as ellie felt. Also i forgot to mention about flashbacks, such a great idea. They time by time, warm up your heart and tell paralell story, to always keep ur emotions in the way they need.
Then we are going to abby, after we saw ellie being in sesttle for 3 days, we have a vision of many things, that 3 days by abby will break. We see the wlf, serapheis living, we saw their communties, rules etc. While plsying as ellie we know thst there is the enemy. But after playing as abby we see thst thrre is actulaly no bad/good guys, just survivors, just people, that still are ready to each others throats. Thats the point to play as abby
But has she a good story? Yes. Its story about redemption. I liked that story, and will tell u why. She has a epic gameplay, rat king, end of seattle day 1 with a most dope fillming in videogames in the forest, whole seattle day 3, relationship with lev was great.
Abby has a deep story so to tell what im meaning i'll copy and paste one part from my review on the game, its in overral about the story and why did chatachters done the thing they have done. Before that need to say that ellie and abby have many incommon.
Look the whole plot we see Ellie wanting to kill abby, but she was hunting her mostly not bcs joels death, bcs she took away from ellie oportunity to forgive joel. She was blind, she was killing people, wgat made her look worse in our eyes, she killed prople not involved in killing joel, abby doesn't, she killed only joel. Look trough all the game we see that nd wanted to show us that there are no bad/good guys, everyone is villian by someone's view, like everyone is just surviovor and fights for his live. So we also see that "bad" abby has feelings, her realetionship is like joel+ellie=abby+lev and you know why that happend? After killing joel abby still saw the nightmares with his father, the emtyness inside her wasn't filled with joels death, so she had ti do something that will fill this eternity. That's why after that sex scene we see abbys dream. With lev and yara that are henged on the three. Now she saw how can she fill this emtyness, so she helped them. Then we see Ellie, even 2 years later still has nightmates with joel, he is in blood, that's the way she now sees him everytime. Now remember, after killing joel abby still saw her father in blood. But after helping kids, he saw him like he always was, alive, with a smile on the face.
THE SAME WITH ELLIE.
In final boss fight, in last minute she sees joel, like he always was, with coffe and guitar with sense of humor, also not in blood. So she wasn't killing abby, she u derstood that will solve nothing.
Also some more things about the ending: ellie list everything, her memmory of mother, her switchblade, ellie lost ability to play guitar, thing that reminds us on joel(also when she plays and leaves guitar at the end=leaves joel) and lost dina. And also why ellie let abby go, she also saw abby with lev was like her and joel.
Ask if u still have something to ask, and in the end i will say a bit about music
You know something’s wrong when the majority of the criticism for something is not only unnecessarily hostile, rude, and flat out mean, but it’s often interjected when it’s completely irrelevant or uncalled for, like in response to someone just saying they enjoyed the game. If that’s you, that’s a red flag that you’re doing something wrong.
There was a scene where Ellie hugs Joel for the last time and they chose not to include it, ARE YOU KIDDING ME ??!😭😭💔💔
This interview was therapeutic as hell.
Ikr this interview made me think bout why i hated the game in the first place haha. Hearing from the actors themselves was really effective
Had you asked me what the perfect spoilercast for this game would be before I saw this, I would have described this exact video. This was absolutely wonderful! Thank you
Rolled credits a few hours ago, had a good cry afterwards, and just finished watching this at 2:40 am. You guys had me smiling and tearing up.
This game is something special. Thank you Neil, Ashley, Troy and the rest of the talent in front of and behind the camera for creating this experience.
Portilla is a boss!
It makes it even sadder when u realize Ashley actually lost her father at a young age, when she was a teenager.... 😭😭😭
Really?? How old was she and how did her father die?
@@constancefontenot2605 Cancer. She was 16/17. She talks about it in an interview with her fiance called 'Between the Sheets'. You can find on TH-cam, it's worth the watch. She talks about TLOU, her career etc.
@@helenpickering3123 wow thank you so much!!!
Ashley probably whispers "where's Abby?" in her sleep
Everytime Troy speaks everyone looks like they're going to cry :'(
Such a handsome man
Joel? I don’t know 😂
@@deez6102 lmao... i was talking about Troy, but Joel definitely is a good looking man as well
He's such a dobber I can't fucking stand it
I needed this after playing the game ... I've been needing to talk to someone (a gamer and someone who knows TLOU) after playing this game.
You can absolutely talk to me, I have so much to say when it comes to this game
You can talk to me to..
Lets all talk, someone... Go!
Great conversation guys
So do you think if we got to kill Abby it would of be fulfilling ?
“Revenge is a fools game” -Arthur Morgan
That quote fits this game so much
It doesn’t because Abby got her revenge and didn’t pay for it
Trill•4•Life I’m talking about Ellie sets out for revenge on Abby, and fails the first time. Then she goes back out for revenge again, and this time let’s Abby go but looses everything.
@@WillOnCode she didn't pay for it? Are you kidding? She lost everyone she loved and cared about...
@@WillOnCode I will never understand how people can come to this conclusion. Abby lost so much throughout the game and to say she didn't pay at all is absurd
@@WillOnCode Then you missed it. Congratulations.
Never saw the leaks and loved the game. All my emotions where triggered... The only games that where able to do this was The Last Of Us and part 2. I'm 36, played heaps of games in my life and these 2 games are in my opinion the best games i have ever played... Just my opinion... I really hope there will be a part 3, i want to know more, i just need to.
Agreed. And yes I really hope so too
I agree. I loved Halo CE and Halo 3 but in much different ways. You do get into Master chiefs role but it was more of the legendary mode battles and the ultra smart AI especially of that era CE still holds a top spot all time.
Same here!
pretty much the same here. 35 y o
My exact opinion
Troy’s description of Joel’s internal dialogue of regret for letting his guard down was beautiful and provided closure for the character. Maybe he’s right that it should have come through more in the performance, but I guess players (and Joel) were so shocked in that moment that subtleties are lost.
Maybe. I think thats what was happening right before his "say whatever speech you prepared" line. I think we were just too shocked (and betrayed) to see it that way.
By the way I'm okay with the scene. I didn't like it but I think its perfectly fine for the story and character.
People kept saying all of those talking points before he said that and we kept being ridiculed as fanboys. I was like clearly Joel isn't the same.
I think you can see the moment he's talking about when Abby asks if she remembers him. I also think you can chock that one up to facial animation being incredible in this game and many others, but not quite there yet to get subtle regret come across.
James Rhodes I think part of the problem may have been that they did several takes where Troy might have said different lines or reacted differently. The actor can easily get wrapped up in that headspace that they take certain inner emotions for granted but the final product moves so fast.
Trying to desperately come up with a reason why both Tommy and Joel got stupid over the years is sad. Remember when Joel and Ellie were greeted with guns at the gate when they first ran into Tommy together? 4 years of living in a community doesn't erase 20 years of running from/killing marauders, joining marauders and keeping your guard up and being smart at all times.
Listening to Ashley talk I just see Ellie 😭😭
Its weird to hear her on a tv program in the other room. I always have to walk in a see what people are watching.
Riiight? She sounds more like Ellie than Ellie sounds like Ellie
ムひシMᥲɾเᥒꫀttꫀ lol
I get giddy every time i hear her talk 😂
I know ! Watching her smile and the little mouth moments . ❤️ I love her
The more I see Ashley, the more I see the resemblance to Ellie. Especially older Ellie in part 2.
Same!! When I look at Neil I think of Many
Yeah, they changed the look of the characters from the first, probably to portray the actors better. I also noticed a little bit of Troy on Joel's upper lip.
I love the trading card collectibles throughout the game. Their bios are clever and their stat slider that shows the hero to villain as a spectrum seemed like a subtle message that there's often not a good vs bad, Its all gray and its all on a spectrum. Great game. Pearl Jam makes me cry now which is kinda epic.
good point about the cards, I didn't make that connection but it makes total sense
Can’t wait to replay and check on this thank you
Could have watched this for another 5 hours. So interesting to hear them talking about the game
Hoping we get more in the weeks to come
Right?! I remember the first one was what really made me love the characters even more than I already did after finishing it. They give such a personal perspective into their characters and it's so fascinating. I wish movies would do this too
I looking forward to retro replay playing through it
@@jacobteague635 wouldn't hold my breath for it, Troy left retro replay few months ago 😣
No it was cringe 😬
I would LOVE to see Mo-Cap sessions of cutscenes from this game like we did in the first one. Mo-Cap sessions with commentary from the actors in a "Behind the Scenes" style would be something I'd pay so much money to see.
Isuzu hopefully they have a grounded documentary coming out
Like how much though?
There will be calm down
Yeah it would be great to see Druckman in a mo cap suit fucking Abby.
Add it as extras in Tlou2 maybe?I feel they should have kept outfits and add cheats like unlimited ammo to make it more replayable.
In the end, she’s breaking free of blind grief and rage as a motivator. She’s choosing to recognise Joel’s capacity for growth and forgiveness and wanting to emulate that, allowing it to override her selfish desire for revenge. The guitar symbolises Joel’s warmer, vulnerable human side and his growth since his horrible act of selfish love broke their relationship. That she can’t play it anymore and leaves it behind is a metaphor for her grief transforming from anger and hatred to acceptance and healing, as it eventually does.
”If I ever were to lose you
I'd surely lose myself”.
but damn the finger wtf lol
Yeah, i would get it if it would end wouldnt be so shit. She killed and felt no remorse, but when she is finally at the goal of her journey, the whole point of it all, she ends it and she killed all those people for nothing, she already lost everything, why not just kill her to have at least something after all this, Abby gets away with the same thing, which is Ellie shamed for. Tbh better ending ( with the same message ) would be Ellie killing abby, and when she gets to an empty home, she ropes herself. Or it could end on the farm. Anything but this nonsense. It was the biggest cliche in the history of storytelling - kill all the others but the main “villian” because of shitty morality. Red dead redemption games have better story about revenge.
Thanks for your comment man, that was so eloquently well said. I just finished this game and am so emotionally drained. I went from initially hating the game from the senseless visceral violence and revenge...to just accepting and loving it by the end and accepting the grief that came from so much loss. That last scene was incredibly symbolic, but the way in which you described it helps shed a lot of the epilogue imagery.
Also, I'm so glad to see that Abby and Lev made it to Catalina Island, for those that don't know, the Avalon is depicted whenever you return back to the starting menu.
@@pavelcerny9492 You can be emotionally blind until you face what caused those emotions. It is a bit of a trope but it is also something that happens in reality. I have had these sort of emotions before (obviously not to these extremes), as soon as you meet what caused it brings out more emotions and you don't go through with what you started.
Her emotions are all over the place when she meets Abby. If Abby didn't leave I bet she would of tried to kill her again. PTSD is a horrible thing, I wouldn't be able to begin to imagine how horrible that feels.
I think it is perfectly reasonable and its the ending I wanted, I was completely against Ellie when she tried to kill Abby then.
I don't need a video game dictating these values, I lost my mother years ago, and we're kinda in the midst of a global pandemic killing thousands everyday,
Is it wrong to look for hapy ending in a game where I wished a happy ending existed here after waiting 7 years?
The small ray of hope we were waiting for 7 years that we get in the midst of this pandemic turns out to end badly?
It's like you're a religious person near the apocalypse who looks for comfort reading the bible, and at the end realizing jesus was satan these whole time
My favorite scene is the "You killed my friends... We let you both live... And you wasted it!" So powerful.
Or the last flashback with joel
ellie vs abby vs dina vs lev was the best
The way Laura Bailey said "wasted it" is pretty damn powerful
*Stunning and brave.*
@@valentino-gw7ms *Stunning and brave.*
The capsule scene wow, what a powerful moment.
Just played through that yesterday and I'm with you.
samuel velez one of my favourite moments in video games.
Wait what capsule scene?
@@pm1613 in the museum flashback
@@captainchunk5737 my lord that scene broke me, last scene of Ellie and Joel being father and daughter
SPOILER WARNING:
Thanks for this! It's helped me come to terms with certain aspects of the story that I was struggling with. Troy talking about playing the game from a selfless standpoint was a real eye opener. There is one point in the game, however, that I know will always pain me to play...
Fighting Ellie as Abby. Ellie has always been my favourite character and I really felt like I was betraying her. She gets so badly beaten and it really upset me. On the other hand I liked getting to see her from the standpoint of one of her enemies. Her quick initiative, sense of hearing and talent for crafting becomes really clear and that was awesome to see!
That was the turning point for me when I sort of sympathized with Abby (even if it was just for half a moment), I realized how scary Ellie truly is, and for me, it was the first time I realized how much she had lost herself. I didn't recognize her and it took me seeing her from another perspective to realize that.
@@BTR54 thats an interesting point, I never thought that
God I love this game, I have never loved talking about something this much in a commemt section.
spicy toast I feel the same way! I’ve been defending it in so many comment sections but like.. its because I just love the game. Ive been enjoying various conversations and analysis of it. As much as it pains me, maybe even more than the first game?
What's ironic about that whole scene is that Ellie and everyone else was on the verge of just leaving the city anyway and trying to move on...until Abby just came in and killed Jesse and nearly did the same to Tommy, so the fight was forced anyway. Even though, Ellie was quickly recommited to her revenge mission, and sneaking around as you hear her shouting and taunting Abby, it's weird. It's something you'd expect from a Hunter or one of the other villains, not the character who's essentially your lead for the first half. But yes, to a certain extent you can view the 'hero' from the other side and get an idea of their playstyle, so to speak.
But then Ellie went on to force their final fight on the beach, so it all rounded out in a way.
1:08:09 "Wherever you think she's at, that's where she's going."
So she's with Dina and JJ. Maybe I can now stop feeling so sad. Thanks !
I wish they had included like a post credit scene of ellie arriving at jackson, just like the first scene with joel.
Saransh Oberoi i would die happy if i just saw my baby girl on the outskirts of jackson looking at it from a distance then making her way as the game cuts to black.
Why so Serious me too ❤️
She could be going to find dina and jj but theres no guarantee dina will forgive her. Im curious on the timeline of how long ellie was gone for.
@@ThaCodFathers probably 4 months. At least. When Ellie leaves the farm, we switch back to Abby who gets captured, then we get back to Ellie and when she arrives she finds out Abby has been captured 2 months before. So a trip of 2 months from Jackson to Santa Barbara, I would assume. Another 2 to get back. At this point JJ is probably 2 y.old
Well people can feel how they feel it's understandable. I myself wasn't a hundred percent pleased with how the game unfolded but I have to applaud them for taking a chance with giving us something different and I'm still enjoying the game. So thank you Neil, Troy and Ashley.
I feel everything was 10/10 apart from the story which if you look at it one way it can be a 3 and another it could be a 10
Luke Eiffe yeah! What surprised me is I actually grew to love Abby. At the end scene I found myself begging Ellie to not kill Abby. I think Abby and Lev reminded her of her relationship with Joel
I'm glad they had this. It was an important discussion avout being able to talk about the game and the characters from their pov. It gives everyone a new way to look at why they did what in terms of plot points and character development.
Doesn't change the fact that the story is badly written and badly paced.
@@OldMusicHeaven just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it objectively bad. You just don't like it, period
@@fedwyn and just because you like something it doesn't make it objectively good, period.
Joaquin Febles My man, that was an unnecessary comment. Obviously if he likes the story, it doesn’t mean it’s objectively good. This is art we’re talking about, art is subjective.
Yup a garbage art
Ashley's acting in Joel's death scene was one of the best moments of acting I can remember ever seeing. The range of emotions she displayed from anger and hate to just begging him to fight and then begging them to let him go all in the space of less than a minute. Fuck that was amazing
It was good acting its just sad how he never got to say his final goodbye to her he just dies brutally with golf club wile allowing them to have shelter and they didnt even give him a chance to fight back or give players one more chance to play as Joel
Ig-11 that’s why his death for so effective tho
Louis Pemberton It could’ve been far more impactful if they did it another way.
It was such good acr8ng but damn the animation... The lighting the blood and the muscle/skin technology. Everything was cracked up to the max
"You're gonna fucking die" was one of the best delivered video game lines in gaming history, along with the somber but pissed off delivery of "i'm gonna fucking kill you" after Joel takes the final hit.
29:01 that "ouff" broke me lol
The passion and how emotional Troy and Ashley got talking about their characters... wow.
Got me teared up too lol
Maybe, becouse they accepting emotional like us the death of Joel
one thing i was hoping to hear about was something i noticed that i thought more people would be talking about which is the fact that they really make sure we know abby hates heights and ellie being the opposite in the sense that she’s fascinated about heights. she talks about wanting to go to space and in part 1 she mentions how she wish she could’ve experienced flying in a plane. i could just be thinking too much into it maybe it could literally mean nothing. anyone have any thoughts on this? what it could mean? would like to hear what other people think.
The segments where Abby was afraid of heights were amazing! Her getting vertigo by being too close to an edge or looking down while with Lev was an incredible touch. I think the creative team just wanted Abby to be as much of a mirror image as possible by tying her and Ellie together in a number of ways.
Maybe that was deliberate, but for me it helped humanise her. In spite of her terminator physique and military demeanour she was just a girl trying to stop her nightmares...
Thats a very interesting observation. I feel like Abby and Ellie very obviously parallel each other, so i think your observation is right in line with that.
Yeah and Ellie climbs the dinosaur head and jumps into the water for fun.
Ikr its gotta be deliberate.
One thing I wished they talked about was their decision for you to play as Abby and go up against Ellie in the theatre. Would have been interested to hear Ashley and Neil’s thoughts on that.
I was so scared for every single character during that part. I felt like I was there, pleading for Ellie and Abby to stop. I get why they did what they did. But at that point killing each other wasn't worth it anymore!
Darthkiller3118 Yeah it was a very tense part to play. It didn’t feel right fighting against Ellie though.
Yeah, 100% the most tense part of the game for me. I really thought that Abby was going to kill Ellie right there
To me that's was one of the most brilliant moment. I was doing well as Abby till i triggered a bomb and died horribly. Then I remembered, yeah, Ellie got bombs.🤣🤣
I thought it was stupid as hell. I enjoyed the game but fighting ellie? Lmao yeH ok like im gonna do that.... i loved the sounds of ellie crafting while fighting u and abby going “wtf is she doing” really showing that Ellie IS THE SUPERIOR CHARACTER. why make this abby character? Don’t understand it and never came to care for her. Idk why im typing so much, i wish they would have at least given us 1 encounter as Joel before he’s killed
I love how Greg presents the awkward "leaks" question in such a graceful way. Neil and the guys are clearly relaxed answering this difficult subject - and we now have insight into what the team was going through. That's why he is "Game-over Greg".
yeah, by neil admitting how he abused the fucking copyright system on youtube lol.
bro…just let go of the hatred. It’s not worth it. There’s better stuff
The way Troy talks about Joel so passionately shows that what happened to him wasn’t a mistake. You can tell when someone is bullshitting in an interview and there was no bullshit there. I 100% agree with him
The museum scene was the giraffe scene in part 1 times 1000 ❤️
I agree, very beautiful scene
@marsjacobvolta which is why the OP said it was "the giraffe scene x1000". Like that was literally his point. Wat
@marsjacobvolta that's personal opinion. the giraffe scene never made me cry. this one did. because you know the love that existed and you know what was lost.
This podcast actually helped me to feel less frustrated about the game. I didn't hated the game but some of the interactions between Joel and ellie in the first game was the little things that made it special in my opinion.After playing it I started thinking more about how the game isn't supposed to be all joyful and happy because it is a dark world where characters try to survive day by day and the part 2 captures just one of those days that didn't go as good as others. I think the story is great not perfect but great. it did something no other game could do it made lot's of us sad and that's something hard to do.
The world they live in is brutal. For me, story is incredible. Best in video game history. Perfect.
its actually good that someone understand their frustration and just dont go with immature rage "ugh bad writing so much disrespect buh"
yeah it feels like if they would made some small differences in how they paced the story and flashbacks and some other little things it could have been a really great game
I finished friday gonna give this whole video a watch, really wanna try to understand the decisions that were taken. Was some moments I liked and some I disliked.
At present cant help but feel disappointed and really kind of depressed about what plays out. How Ellie and Joel's relationship is destroyed after finding out what Joel did. Ellie from this point hates Joel and wanted nothing to do with him for two years, which just sucks.
Then also what Ellie says in the first game "everyone I have cared for has either died or left me" well this has now happened again. A depressing outcome for Ellie.
If you guys want a bit of a pick me up, it's implied that Ellie was able to reconcile with Dina. She's missing her weapons and has Dina's bracelet when she comes back to the farm. It's also implied that Abby and Lev made it safely to the firefly compound. That's as much of a positive ending as you can get.
Ashley looks intense but sounds chill. Troy looks chill but sounds intense
Guys, let me hear what you think about my understanding of the game
The plot device of the story is revenge, but guilt is just as important.
- It is revenge that makes Abby torture and kill Joel (after he saves her). It is the guilt of doing this (notice the face she makes, right after killing Joel, she realizes that it did not satisfy her) that makes her come back to save yara and lev.
- it is revenge that makes ellie kill all abby's friends (after they have spared her life). It's the guilt that makes her let abby go
(1) That image of Joel (playing guitar on the porch, which is even Ellie's last entry in her diary) that comes to Ellie's mind when she was going to kill Abby is very significant (their last dialogue), since in the whole game she had only memories of him the dead on the floor (apart from flashbacks) and that image was different, he was ok, playing the guitar. In contrast, in this scene, she just went to Abby, because she saw Joel dead, again, and she just gives up killing just because she saw that image (of the guitar). At that moment, ellie forgave Joel and let abby go, because she saw in abby and lev, the same dynamic of her and Joel in the first game of unconditional love, of risking everything to save the other, from the beginning Abby didn't want to fight, but the moment Ellie threatens Lev, she changes her attitude and does the “necessary” to save him (in a situation identical to the first game, would Abby let Lev be killed?) . See that the scene of Abby carrying the lev to the boat is the same scene as Joel with her at the end of the first. Contributing to this understanding, Ellie's putting herself in Lev's place, the fact that, when giving up revenge, she says "Take him", in the sense that she doesn't want the boy to go through the same thing she did when she lost Joel and, thus, it interrupts the cycle of violence. There is a moment in the game, right after the hospital flashback in which she writes in the diary that she would not tell Jesse and Dina what Joel did, because they would not understand, but she herself wonders if she understands. I think she understands precisely the moment he realizes that the Abby / Lev relationship is identical to hers and Joel's (an unconditional love relationship). Ellie's revenge for not wanting to stop, doing everything at any cost (including leaving Tommy behind when Jesse calls her), the visions and the trauma are due, among other factors, to a feeling of guilt for the fact that to have ignored Joel for so long (which is absolutely understandable, since he lied to ellie about the fireflies) and when they would start over (which is the moment she says she is willing to try to forgive) he dies.
(2) Much of ellie's feeling of revenge lies in the fact that she did not forgive Joel while he was alive. I think the presence of his coat represents this well: if in the first moment (flashback from the hospital, when he tells the truth) she refuses a hug from Joel, who was wearing that coat, in the second moment, in his house sequence , after Joel's death, she kind of hugs her coat (symbolizing that while he was alive, she didn't show her feelings, but after he dies she does it). In the first game she says that her big fear is being alone, the only one who didn't leave her was Joel, even with all the reasons for that, he might as well leave ellie, since she was distant from him (with reason) btw), including saying that he would do everything again , if God gave a second chance. Look at the great declaration of love that Joel gave. This reading is confirmed precisely by the memory of ellie of the last moment of the two. The last entry in her diary is a drawing of Joel playing the guitar, the only person who didn't abandon her was him, even though he had every reason to do so. Even Dina left her, with reason, but she still left, unlike Joel.
(3) Do you know which was the worst? Ellie was willing to forgive Joel, I even think she ends up forgiving (even if not explicit, but in a very superficial analysis, I can infer), this is clear in the last flashback, however he dies the next day, preventing the restart of the relationship. At the beginning of the game she says she will see a movie with Joel (representing a change in attitude towards him, if the two were still really fighting, there would be no reason to do that, just remember that she, upon discovering the lie, speaks “We're done”), but he ends up dying in front of her. The final scene of the two is to kill, each saying "I love you" in their own way: Joel, knowing that ellie was pissed at him, distant, said that he would do everything again to save her; ellie, even knowing that Joel took away the meaning of her life, was willing to forgive him, see that she even writes in her diary, right afterwards at Joel's house, that “the only thing I have left is our last conversation ”. The details only reinforce this, ellie leaves the farm wearing Joel's coat and comes back wearing his shirt from the first game. It's very sad, she ends up alone without a finger (not being able to play Joel's song, which was the way to connect them. Even this song is used as an instrument for the first flashback), without her dina and her son). Another thing, if you notice, she kind of caresses the guitar and leaves it carefully on the wall, I don't think it represented a forgetfulness of Joel, but overcoming the trauma itself (there is still the question that she cannot play anymore). The most important thing is that the object that reminds her of Joel is the broken watch that she doesn't leave on the farm, she takes with her (it's the object that she picks up at Joel's house before going to Seattle; it's the object that she stays with looking at the beginning of the farm sequence ...). Every time she remembered Joel before the end, he was dead (she says it a lot in the diary, which smells like iron, of his death), but the memory that will remain is from their dialogue, as I said in the statement of love for each one (notice Joel's crying face when he says "I would be happy"; notice Ellie's face when Joel says he would do everything Again). this game is awesome, every detail is very subtle, it needs maturity to understand the ending. In the end, she ends up alone with nothing, without being able to effectively excuse the "father" she loved so much and without the love of life she, the dina. Summary of the story, hatred consumes everything and makes her lose everything. As the theme song “if i ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself”, because she lost Joel (the father figure that, despite everything, she loved so much) she lost everything because of her revenge (this is her scene crying alone at sea)
This is fucking beautiful 🥺
Nailed it
I cannot agree more
This is a fantastic interpretation. I wish the game could get more praise but the hate is just too much.
Fantastic way to explain it
These are real people, they have feelings. Death threats are not ok.
Yeah but they fucked up and did very poorly written story telling the plot that Joel got killed made no fucking sense.
The death threats is ridiculous. They should be shamed. I didn't like joel dying but I accepted it and the game was fantastic. Not perfect but still great. 9.5 outta 10 for me.
@@Golems_victory No they didn't. You just went into the game closed minded and immediatly turned off your brain when Joel died and didn't think about why and just said 'This game is trash' which makes absolutely no fuckin sense.
100% they should name and shame the knobheads who did the threats. How pathetic must you be to threaten someone over your opinion of how a game should be.
@@Golems_victory There is no "yeah but". Not liking their story is no reason to justify any of the abuse they're getting. Constructive criticism is ok, disliking is ok ... name calling and abuse isn't.
This game felt like such an emotional draining game by the end of it. Made you feel like you needed to step away for some time and really think about what you just went through and if it was all really worth it. Such a surreal experience.
It was weird and some deaths were so surprising they made me jump in my seat. Definitely an amazing experience and I'm looking forwars to playing it many times like Part I
@@festenzurius7454 ....I'm speechless.
Ikr. Especially playing on survival mode. It felt so intense. Almost every minute of it
I like how they left the ending open for everyone so each player can interpret his/her own ending based on his/her thoughts and emotions that build up throughout the game.
Or to sell another game when they want more $$
Yeah its cool they did that in the first game too
That's how I felt about the first game's ending. I love this series and it's characters.
Me too. They did a good job with that. To me its better to have an ending to be interpreted instead of it being only one way. Let's everyone share the way they personally perceived the ending. Which is exactly what this game needed.
Old comment, but still:
The first game had the right amount of closure and ambiguity. Part 2 ended far too ambiguous and practically no closure apart from Joel and Ellie’s story (i.e. Ellie finally being able to both accept his death and move on). These are stories told by the writers and I would love to have a BIT of closure at least. Ellie’s story ended in a cliffhanger basically.
I was with Ellie for the whole ride, with the shared goal of killing these motherfuckers. Until Abby spared Ellie's life for a 2nd time, and we got to The Farm, my ire had been quelled, fair's fair, we killed Abby's closest friends and she has to live with the consequences of her own quest for revenge. Playing through Santa Barbara, it felt like Ellie shouldn't be there, then we get to The Pillars and the boats; with PTSD triggering the whole reason we started this journey, I was back in, but I didn't want to kill Abby, just show her that I could. And the game does exactly that. At the cost of some fingers, which seems like a small toll, until the final scene and you realize she can no longer connect with Joel through their shared song. Heartbreaking, I loved it.
Experiencing a story, in which no one truly felt safe was incredibly refreshing. I appreciated efforts to make the player empathetic to the Salt Lake Crew, but I still felt no regret when each one met their fate.
I still addy dead so I dont have 2 play her ever again.
this is great! i wish more people felt this way i fully agree. i love the story in this game so much and i think it’s so heartbreaking, tragic, and beautiful. i do however think it could’ve been executed better due to the pacing of the second half being kind of wack and personally i don’t really care for the whole plot of abby getting involved with the scars. i feel like they could’ve cut that out and made the game not drag on and still get the same point across. i’m curious what you think of that.
Exact, she being in Santa Barbara makes no sense, that part is a total bullshit
@@nathanchen107 maybe for closure for Ellie. and final conclusion for the whole game. If its make you think it non sense.. so the game succeed on delivering the both sides.
@@nathanchen107 It's not like Ellie enjoys going to Santa Barbara and leaving the farm and Dina and JJ. She has to or she won't move on with her life. Look how consumed she is in that sequence, barely able to eat or sleep. Look how guilty she feels when Tommy comes visit.
I think the complexity of her choice is well delivered.
"Humanity would band together in a crisis rather than devolve into violent factions," this person clearly has never taken a history class 😆
First week of Covid and everyone became Toilet Paper royalty. Stockpiled it like it was worth their weight in gold. Without a doubt, people would waste no time prioritizing themselves and considering everyone else an “other”.
@Lord Chanka Yup we saw that with Joel in the end of the last game which caused the 2nd games plot
George Floyd ring any bells literal anarchy in the streets of people vs cops
Actually a lot of research and experience has shown that people show a lot more prosocial than asocial behaviour in disasters which are the closest experiences to apocalypses that we have.
Think about it and it makes sense from an evolutionist point of view. Genes that promote social behaviour in these situations cause human communities to have a higher chance of survival so prosocial genes survive. Humans have evolved to be very cooperative because cooperative genes have a higher chance to survive.
The idea that everyone becomes a raider in disasters and that humans all turn on each other is a myth created by entertainemnt because these stories are much more interesting. There is no real evidence to back that myth up.
lol... OP got it. Cannibalism is rampant when food is low too. Humanity DOES band together if it's a shared enemy though usually, so that isn't wrong. (Stops the us vs them thinking.)
Forgiveness is something that keeps coming up when I think about this game. Especially the ending.
"You have to forgive the people that wronged you, not for their sake, but for yours."
Ellie forgiving (or beginning to forgive) Joel which lead to Ellie forgiving Abby.
She realized that by not forgiving Joel sooner, she never got the chance to fully reconcile with him. She didn't forgive Abby sooner so she lost everything.
Ans it takes to the very last moment to finally see that her lack of empathy and lack of forgiveness is costing her everything she loves.
I see it that Ellie is more angry at herself for not reconciling with Joel and then losing the chance rather than Abby taking him away.
Nice take on it. I don't like the story, I thought it was all over the place but I like what you said. No hate, but just can't accept the ending of this game.
@@redelixir9384 it's like the naruto and pain arc where naruto forgave pain despite everything cause he realize pain was someone in his shoes not this absolute evil and the fact abby sparred them even after ellie killed more of their comrades showed she wasn't this ultimate evil like ellie believed
@@redelixir9384 petty.
I completed The Last of Us Part 2 last night and when Tory gets emotional, really hits me hard. I’ve never felt emotion like this playing a video game. The original blew me away with Narrative, this game broke me heart and make me smile and just ask why? Why and why! A masterpiece.
Yeah I agree Elle forgave Joel before the day he was going to die Elle was going to start her friendship again with joel but the next day he dies but at least Joel died with Elle forgiveing him
Angela Jones Ellie didn’t forgive Joel, she wanted to try to forgive him. Joel ended up dying, taking away Ellie’s chance to forgive him.
I asked why as well. Why did they ruin the story. Then I remembered its an ego project for Mr cuckman
Thank you to all three of you guys for two of my favourite games of all time. Never have any games made me truly connect and "feel" for characters like The Last Of Us Parts 1 & 2. And thanks Greg for hosting an excellent spoiler cast.
Something I thought was important to note is early on in the game, when you have to sign-in while on patrol, you can see how frequently they actually don't do patrols (like sometimes months or weeks apart) which not only means that there aren't many infected around the Jackson area, but even looking at Tommy and Joel's patrols, they are 2 months apart and this is clearly over a whole year at the very least, which means Joel and Tommy only go out every now and again these last 4-5 years, and this is just further showing you how Joel has changed since the first game. Not only that, but they only ran into 2 clickers together. Thats childs play for either of them, and when thats the extent of any fighting Joel has to do YEARLY for quite a long time after all he went through, don't you guys think that would change a person? Make them more complacent and peaceful? Come on now. I wish more people would watch this spoilercast and be willing to understand more of the game.
more important than that: a lot of those patrole notes describe how Tommy and Joel find new people and bring them to Jackson. Some of them decide to stay in Jackson
@@X5J2UY Yep! Jackson has a really welcoming straggler/stranger policy which also explains why Joel would be so quick to save someone he doesn't know from the horde that may have already been chasing THEM. Such a good story tbh
Yeah, but the clowns who bitch and whine about the game haven't got time to play the game properly. They just wanna rush through it so they they can make their clickbait hate videos for the sheep.
great point. haters - "Joel would never walk into that he's too smart. bad game. disrespect"
like dude, first, Joel was not that smart, he brute forced his way through the Apocalypse.. remember he was just Tess' muscle pretty much.. he's not stupid or anything, but he's not a mind reader..
I'm pretty sure Joel knows he wiped out the rest of the fireflies at the hospital, so why would he be on guard 4 years after? Tommy was a Firefly, if fireflies were seriously looking for Joel, they would have probably have got in touch to Tommy to just check (I don't know if fireflies knew Tommy had a brother, but maybe)
he and Tommy rescued Abby, there is no way in hell they would expect her to turn on them.. and to be fair, both Tommy and Joel realized what was happening right before it did
"y'all act like you heard of us or something.."
ugh, crazy good writing.
4-5 years of "peace" does not take away those 20 years of surviving though
Goddamn man, troy's observations on what the game is about are just so 100% accurate. Naughty dog are miles ahead of other game developers for sure. Maybe even further than some of the audience. Really glad i got and understood the same themes that they're discussing while playing the game.
Last of Us Part II challenged me in a way I never expected. It was a tough game to get through at times, I felt anger, sadness, happiness, loss, regret, but In the end, I absolutely loved this game. It is one of the best games I’ve ever played in my entire life. Great work Naughty Dog!
It challenged me too. It was a challenge to look past the awful writing, plot holes and terrible pacing. Also the blatant lies from ND.
@@leeeales1972 lmaoo what awful writing mr. phd. Name one past the pacing and the abby joel meeting and also what plot holes? Hater bum
@@niharshastri3519 calm down fanboy. Incase you didn't realise or maybe ain't intelligent enough to understand it's called an opinion. If you ain't clever enough to spot them yourself then carry on enjoying the dross you're given.
@@leeeales1972 gonna cry bum hater? Cry more 😂😂. Go play some uncharted for your coddled fan service little child
@@niharshastri3519 cry? Listen to yourself its embarrassing. You're probably about 12 and live with your mum still. Come out the basement and get some education little boy and then come back when you can talk like an adult. Cheerio
This game was the first game I have ever really cried on. That porch scene brung me to tears. It wasn't a perfect game, but for sure an amazing game. What game is perfect. The sequal did not disappoint.
No game is 100% perfect, but for me this is the closest we've come.
if its only game you cried on - it can be called "perfect", because its something more than just a game
The first game. THAT was a perfect game. This is just a poor try.
/.u.\
@@unluckylucks true