Sidenote on meaties: There's actually two definitions. Originally a meaty was when you hit with a later active frame than the first. Which let you do special combos that wouldn't otherwise connect. Like... if you hit someone with the last frame of your low forward, it would have a higher frame advantage because the hitstun would be the same, but the recovery would be lower in comparison. However, since the main time this happens is during wakeup, people started referring to any hit on wakeup as a meaty. And at this point there's that's the more common of the two definitions
Wanna know a sleeper mechanic? Gravity. It affects all movement and is varied by game. Players don't even realize they are adjusting to very specific velocities.
I love how quick and snappy the intro and early parts of the video were, as well as how you transitioned into taking more time and including examples when you got into the meat of the video! The flow of this video was great, and kept me engaged while watching. Thanks for the video!
It’s also neat to see the concepts of oki in less traditional fighters. Super Smash Bros effectively replaces the knock-down state with being knocked off the stage. The falling player needs to return to the stage, so being knocked off limits their actions in a manner similar to being knocked down in other fighters. This then allows the player with the advantage to engage in edge-guarding; attempting to counter the opponent’s efforts to return to solid ground, by intercepting them with another attack, jumping on their head, or blocking their recovery attack. And when a character has grabbed the edge, their options are remarkably similar to a knocked-down character. You can get up normally, attack, dodge roll, jump, or even drop down again to confuse the opponent for a split second. It’s neat to see how the principles apply in an unusual format.
Watch some pro Tekken players break down tournament matches. Theyll break down Oki in tekken for you. Do the same for most Fighting games and youll be fine. Research a fighting games frames and mobement if you reall want to get good. Gg is a good place to start if you want an intro into how oki and otg can work.
@@ShawnWeeded510 this is good advice, but I can’t help but feel it was meant for a different comment. Mostly because I don’t think my comment was worded as a request for info. I do want to reiterate that I appreciate the comment regardless.
@@enlongjones2394 Agree, kinda. There is also normal okizeme situations in smash as well. When a character needs to wake up by either doing get up attack, roll, or stand. Tech chase situation also count as an okizeme time. Smash has lot of fighing game concepts that is only done slightly different. Like A DP out of the corner would be the same as Up B out of Shield for alot of characters.
@@wits_end. In theory, yeah tech situations in Smash play like traditional fighters, but in practice they don't because most opponents who know how to quickstand will use those options as a default, because if you're close enough then running up and jabbing will beat every other option. Teching and rolls also kinda bypass all of this since you'd need that time to get over to the opponent. The other options are mostly used as a way to mix up. On top of this, it's really rare to have something that perfectly covers all of the quickstand options, because very few moves can cover all of the roll distances at once without a proper timing. The closest thing you can get to covering all the different options on wakeup in Smash games is with big horizontal rushing moves. Covering ledge options plays way more like the mental game around Oki in most fighters because it forces that guessing game. All the options on ledge have a minimum time to come out, you get time to get into position prior, and there's only one roll distance. The default option is gonna be dealt with the same way as with oki. So just like in traditional fighters, doing a Safejump setup is a practical way to cover an opponent on ledge, since it'll cover both getup attacks and jumps, as well as not being too commital if I guess wrong. Meaty hits are also a similar mental game to two-frames, not only do they ask you to know about how many active frames your moves have, but they also force you to ask when the opponent will actually show up in that vulnerable period. The biggest difference is that in Smash this is something you try to hit before the guessing game of which option they'll pick, but they can still mix up their timings. I still agree that Smash has mechanics that put the opponent in situations like the trad fighters, but if you ask me Smash's onstage tech-chase situations play more like trying to get resets in games like UMVC3 or DBFZ. In those games, if I drop my combo while the opponent is in the air, then the opponent can tech out of a combo in the air in any direction. If I guess where they'll end up and cover it properly with a grab, I can reset my combo for some more damage. The question the game asks yourself for those situations is "how can I cover that particular space that they're going to show up at?", and not having much time to prepare. I end up covering reset situations in DBFZ in a similar way I end up dealing with tech-chases in Smash, you cover the space quickly. Android 16 and Ganondorf have similar mental games they can put you in, cause both have a moving command grab that covers those spots you could be in at a tech-chase, so if they keep guessing right then they can just keep you in that guessing game.
ive been playing tekken for 4 years almost everyday and i recently accidentally found out that it you side roll and then hold forward you roll and you can do getup up 4,3 and also 1+2.i just had no idea that you could do that
I would love a video on oki in Tekken... it's... one of the hardest things to wrap my head around. 😅 As always, I 100% love your videos. Between you, Design Doctor, and Design delve on Second wind, I feel I learn a new thing every week. 💚
Weird comparison but tekken and smash bros have semi similar oki games, delayable wake ups, get up rolls and get up attack, which can all be baited and punished depending on situation
@@HELLRAISER02 Hmmm, yeah, I think I can see what you mean. I think I didn' make the connection because oki's a smaller part of Smash than Tekken... unless we want to count recovery from the ledge as oki, but I think that's a stretch.
@@matthiasjones yeah and people call it tech chasing, not even oki, but thats mainly since you can tech or tech roll just bout anything Edge guardings more like corner pressure but WAY stronger id prolly argue
DOA has one of the most interesting oki mechanics imo as it has something called "Force Tech" where hitting your opponent while they're on the ground with 2 hits in rapid succession (or a move that does at least 60 damage in some games) will force them back on their feet, preventing them from just laying on the ground and leading to more mixup opportunities
Correction. A meaty is when you hit an opponent during the later possible frames during their way up so you would be more plus frames then you would normally
Would have been nice to include Soulcalibur's okizeme options as well but I can see why that might have been daunting. Heck, almost all the characters in Soulcalibur VI (like SCV) lost several 8-Way Run moves yet more than half the cast STILL have a longer command list than King (like Yoshimitsu with 247 moves or Astaroth with 208).
I find it so funny how this explanation is kind of built for new guys to the fgc but am sure most of the audience is people who know it already but just like this type of breakdowns
@@typhoonbh I learnt absolutely nothing but still watched it. I think it's part fun to see someone break something down but it's also kind of nostalgic from actually needing the videos at first
Shame you didn't talk about Dudley's taunt in sf3 where he throws a flower that is meaty can basically lead to a mixup That thing is a skill check and a half
i have played tekken all of my life, but not other 2D fighting game so i am struggling really hard to play even some 'easier' game like Guilty Gear Strive. So yeah, Tekken does throw the conventional fighting game tech out of the window
Great topic for a video and well done on all points. Personally I like waking up no matter which side Im on. If I'm the aggresor it gives me momentum and the intimidation factor which can be even more rewarding than the combo itself If im waking up its always a chance to take my turn back and flip the table.
I swear, I will land Dance with me, Kuma down 1,4 when opponent down. Maybe not in T7, but in T8. Even if on afk opponent with it's massive 114 startup. It's just so massively funny to have the bear backwalk onto enemy.
0:40 ....That is not the definition of meaty. That is a common misconception and misuse of the term meaty. Meaty just means a move didn't hit on the first active frame. The farther into its active frames the move hits, the more meaty it is. It has nothing to do with wakeup. Though it most commonly happens on wakeup. I'd argue I get more meaty hits not on wakeup but in neutral. I use Dee Jan in SF6 and his st hp moves forward and when it hits meaty, as it usually does, I get a st lk link after. It's probably my main footsies tool. Same with my main in SF4, Dudley.
It's not underrated at all. Everyone I see who plays a character with a fireball in SF6 does it constantly. And really, why wouldn't you? It's free pressure for you.
I LOVE tekken grapplers cuz they get so many throws for different situations, and i love stomping grounded peeps with any char even if it ends oki, and i love me some oki
@@typhoonbh yeah :), theyve helped inspire me to try to make cool grapplers for my hypothetical FG who got a lot of versatile throws, and some utility in general, as king n armor king also got some good buttons
okizeme is not a game mechanic. there's no special event that's triggered in code. its just a situation. also, meaty is just hitting someone with the last active frame leading to more frame advantage. hence calling it a meaty hit. just because a lot of hits on wakeup happen to be meaties doesnt make it correct to call every one of them that.
Ehhh wouldnt exactly define meaties as hitting late in active frames. A ton of moves have variable frame data depending on how late they hit from fireballs to advancing moves like tatsus. I wouldn't call any of those meaties. I see people use it way more commonly as having any of your active frames cover a wake up, and making the later active frames makes it hit more meaty and more advantageous.
@@garhentai5386 i mean, just because something is common, it doesnt mean its also correct. its also common for people go their whole lives using words/phrases incorrectly. like calling all napskins in a box "kleenex" or all throwing disks "frisbees". to the point where some words even get additional definitions.
Forgot that youtube's bitrate sucks, sorry if the background looks pixelated lol
JOIN THE DISCORD! (its dead)
discord.gg/B6uWue8
stop inviting them 😭😭
What fighting game is that at thw last one
punch planet, all games are in the description @@zelnickno.2348
@@typhoonbh thankss
I usually wake up by splashing water on my PC ❤️
I wake up by bashing my skull against my keyboard
Bro what
@@zelnickno.2348 mb bro
Sidenote on meaties: There's actually two definitions. Originally a meaty was when you hit with a later active frame than the first. Which let you do special combos that wouldn't otherwise connect. Like... if you hit someone with the last frame of your low forward, it would have a higher frame advantage because the hitstun would be the same, but the recovery would be lower in comparison. However, since the main time this happens is during wakeup, people started referring to any hit on wakeup as a meaty. And at this point there's that's the more common of the two definitions
Wanna know a sleeper mechanic? Gravity. It affects all movement and is varied by game. Players don't even realize they are adjusting to very specific velocities.
That’s actually very true, especially with guilty gear’s Roman cancel mechanic.
I love how quick and snappy the intro and early parts of the video were, as well as how you transitioned into taking more time and including examples when you got into the meat of the video! The flow of this video was great, and kept me engaged while watching. Thanks for the video!
I’m glad you enjoyed the video!
It’s also neat to see the concepts of oki in less traditional fighters.
Super Smash Bros effectively replaces the knock-down state with being knocked off the stage. The falling player needs to return to the stage, so being knocked off limits their actions in a manner similar to being knocked down in other fighters. This then allows the player with the advantage to engage in edge-guarding; attempting to counter the opponent’s efforts to return to solid ground, by intercepting them with another attack, jumping on their head, or blocking their recovery attack.
And when a character has grabbed the edge, their options are remarkably similar to a knocked-down character. You can get up normally, attack, dodge roll, jump, or even drop down again to confuse the opponent for a split second.
It’s neat to see how the principles apply in an unusual format.
Watch some pro Tekken players break down tournament matches. Theyll break down Oki in tekken for you. Do the same for most Fighting games and youll be fine. Research a fighting games frames and mobement if you reall want to get good. Gg is a good place to start if you want an intro into how oki and otg can work.
@@ShawnWeeded510 this is good advice, but I can’t help but feel it was meant for a different comment. Mostly because I don’t think my comment was worded as a request for info.
I do want to reiterate that I appreciate the comment regardless.
@@enlongjones2394 Agree, kinda. There is also normal okizeme situations in smash as well. When a character needs to wake up by either doing get up attack, roll, or stand. Tech chase situation also count as an okizeme time. Smash has lot of fighing game concepts that is only done slightly different. Like A DP out of the corner would be the same as Up B out of Shield for alot of characters.
@@wits_end. In theory, yeah tech situations in Smash play like traditional fighters, but in practice they don't because most opponents who know how to quickstand will use those options as a default, because if you're close enough then running up and jabbing will beat every other option. Teching and rolls also kinda bypass all of this since you'd need that time to get over to the opponent. The other options are mostly used as a way to mix up.
On top of this, it's really rare to have something that perfectly covers all of the quickstand options, because very few moves can cover all of the roll distances at once without a proper timing.
The closest thing you can get to covering all the different options on wakeup in Smash games is with big horizontal rushing moves.
Covering ledge options plays way more like the mental game around Oki in most fighters because it forces that guessing game.
All the options on ledge have a minimum time to come out, you get time to get into position prior, and there's only one roll distance. The default option is gonna be dealt with the same way as with oki.
So just like in traditional fighters, doing a Safejump setup is a practical way to cover an opponent on ledge, since it'll cover both getup attacks and jumps, as well as not being too commital if I guess wrong.
Meaty hits are also a similar mental game to two-frames, not only do they ask you to know about how many active frames your moves have, but they also force you to ask when the opponent will actually show up in that vulnerable period. The biggest difference is that in Smash this is something you try to hit before the guessing game of which option they'll pick, but they can still mix up their timings.
I still agree that Smash has mechanics that put the opponent in situations like the trad fighters, but if you ask me Smash's onstage tech-chase situations play more like trying to get resets in games like UMVC3 or DBFZ.
In those games, if I drop my combo while the opponent is in the air, then the opponent can tech out of a combo in the air in any direction. If I guess where they'll end up and cover it properly with a grab, I can reset my combo for some more damage.
The question the game asks yourself for those situations is "how can I cover that particular space that they're going to show up at?", and not having much time to prepare.
I end up covering reset situations in DBFZ in a similar way I end up dealing with tech-chases in Smash, you cover the space quickly.
Android 16 and Ganondorf have similar mental games they can put you in, cause both have a moving command grab that covers those spots you could be in at a tech-chase, so if they keep guessing right then they can just keep you in that guessing game.
ive been playing tekken for 4 years almost everyday and i recently accidentally found out that it you side roll and then hold forward you roll and you can do getup up 4,3 and also 1+2.i just had no idea that you could do that
Sick video bro. Keep it up. Favorite parts are definitely the ones where you’re feeling loose and chucking to the audience.
seeing that king perfect that negan was so goddamn satisfying
I would love a video on oki in Tekken... it's... one of the hardest things to wrap my head around. 😅
As always, I 100% love your videos. Between you, Design Doctor, and Design delve on Second wind, I feel I learn a new thing every week. 💚
Weird comparison but tekken and smash bros have semi similar oki games, delayable wake ups, get up rolls and get up attack, which can all be baited and punished depending on situation
Tekken is dumb, opponent wil be lying flat on the floor and you can send them flying into the air with a jab which didnt even connect
@@HELLRAISER02 Hmmm, yeah, I think I can see what you mean. I think I didn' make the connection because oki's a smaller part of Smash than Tekken... unless we want to count recovery from the ledge as oki, but I think that's a stretch.
@@matthiasjones yeah and people call it tech chasing, not even oki, but thats mainly since you can tech or tech roll just bout anything
Edge guardings more like corner pressure but WAY stronger id prolly argue
DOA has one of the most interesting oki mechanics imo as it has something called "Force Tech" where hitting your opponent while they're on the ground with 2 hits in rapid succession (or a move that does at least 60 damage in some games) will force them back on their feet, preventing them from just laying on the ground and leading to more mixup opportunities
I'm glad you have woken up
Correction. A meaty is when you hit an opponent during the later possible frames during their way up so you would be more plus frames then you would normally
Would have been nice to include Soulcalibur's okizeme options as well but I can see why that might have been daunting. Heck, almost all the characters in Soulcalibur VI (like SCV) lost several 8-Way Run moves yet more than half the cast STILL have a longer command list than King (like Yoshimitsu with 247 moves or Astaroth with 208).
I find it so funny how this explanation is kind of built for new guys to the fgc but am sure most of the audience is people who know it already but just like this type of breakdowns
Yeah my content is definitely geared towards casual players but I think some people just like the editing
@@typhoonbh I learnt absolutely nothing but still watched it. I think it's part fun to see someone break something down but it's also kind of nostalgic from actually needing the videos at first
As a fairly well-versed FG player, I'm doing exactly that.
Another video? How exciting.
Terumi kicking someone while they're down is the most in-character thing. 😅😂
true
Shame you didn't talk about Dudley's taunt in sf3 where he throws a flower that is meaty can basically lead to a mixup
That thing is a skill check and a half
yeah that could have been a good example
shows guilty gear for an oki example , doesnt use the character who's entire thing is doing just that
As a street fighter player, "40 hit" just doesn't compute to me
Also FINALLY a good explanation of oki, bless up
I appreciate it boss
yessirski
3:07 let it be known i just dropped a gazillion times here
To this day, it absolutely astounds me that tekken can have such an obtuse oki system and yet do absolutely nothing to explain it to you.
Yeah most of the stuff in training mode barely covers it
i have played tekken all of my life, but not other 2D fighting game so i am struggling really hard to play even some 'easier' game like Guilty Gear Strive. So yeah, Tekken does throw the conventional fighting game tech out of the window
Thanks for the video it really helped ❤
Glad to hear that!
Great topic for a video and well done on all points. Personally I like waking up no matter which side Im on.
If I'm the aggresor it gives me momentum and the intimidation factor which can be even more rewarding than the combo itself
If im waking up its always a chance to take my turn back and flip the table.
Thank you! For me I feel more comfortable waking up facing the right side for some reason
I swear, I will land Dance with me, Kuma down 1,4 when opponent down. Maybe not in T7, but in T8. Even if on afk opponent with it's massive 114 startup. It's just so massively funny to have the bear backwalk onto enemy.
0:40 ....That is not the definition of meaty. That is a common misconception and misuse of the term meaty. Meaty just means a move didn't hit on the first active frame. The farther into its active frames the move hits, the more meaty it is. It has nothing to do with wakeup. Though it most commonly happens on wakeup. I'd argue I get more meaty hits not on wakeup but in neutral. I use Dee Jan in SF6 and his st hp moves forward and when it hits meaty, as it usually does, I get a st lk link after. It's probably my main footsies tool. Same with my main in SF4, Dudley.
4:29 where did you get that chiptune version of glorious days?
Projectile as oki is underrated in non-anime fighters, its still so good for dp counterplay even though the projectiles may not be as active!
True I should have brought that up
It's not underrated at all. Everyone I see who plays a character with a fireball in SF6 does it constantly. And really, why wouldn't you? It's free pressure for you.
Terumi's kicking reminds me of Yamazaki from kof
There has yet to be a fighting game move i love more than Terumi Stomp
The art of WAKING up in fighting games
Yeah you should wake up in every game
I LOVE tekken grapplers cuz they get so many throws for different situations, and i love stomping grounded peeps with any char even if it ends oki, and i love me some oki
Tekken’s grapplers are great
@@typhoonbh yeah :), theyve helped inspire me to try to make cool grapplers for my hypothetical FG who got a lot of versatile throws, and some utility in general, as king n armor king also got some good buttons
2:25 OST title please? It reminded me of Victor Chevalier in T8!
th-cam.com/video/Vmbas8J7fOc/w-d-xo.html
@@typhoonbh Thanks!
6:30 hes the Lei of grapplerd
And YES YOU CAN
XD
If you like that one guy repeatedly stepping on the opponent how do you feel about lab coat 21's otg from dragon ball fighterz?
Melee has the most complex wake up options.
Wakeup throw
YOU HAVE A SECOND CHANNEL!!!!
yup
what's that fg on the outro? looks sick
Punch planet, all the games are in the description
Meaty attacks hit on the last active frames, not on the first active frame.
What was the fighting game in the outro called ? The one with the wolf.
punch planet
@@typhoonbh thank you
keep going
Thank you
What game is that in the outro???
punch planet
What’s the game at the end of the video called
Punch planet, all games are in the description
What game was that in the end?
Punch planet
@@typhoonbh Thank you and nice vid man
Once again Typhoon please put the name of the game you're showing in the corner or something
Every game in the video is in the description
@@typhoonbh I'm lazy man lol
I went band for band with Elon Musk then I won so then after we did a smash 1v1 and I won again🤑
Or just button mashing button mashing button mashing and Hope for the best
real
actually its pronounced okazoomey Kappa
okizeme is not a game mechanic. there's no special event that's triggered in code. its just a situation.
also, meaty is just hitting someone with the last active frame leading to more frame advantage. hence calling it a meaty hit. just because a lot of hits on wakeup happen to be meaties doesnt make it correct to call every one of them that.
Ehhh wouldnt exactly define meaties as hitting late in active frames. A ton of moves have variable frame data depending on how late they hit from fireballs to advancing moves like tatsus. I wouldn't call any of those meaties.
I see people use it way more commonly as having any of your active frames cover a wake up, and making the later active frames makes it hit more meaty and more advantageous.
@@garhentai5386 i mean, just because something is common, it doesnt mean its also correct.
its also common for people go their whole lives using words/phrases incorrectly.
like calling all napskins in a box "kleenex" or all throwing disks "frisbees". to the point where some words even get additional definitions.
@@alex_oiman the kleenex example you used is called a colloquialism, which is what the term meaty has become.