NU-13 in the original Blazblue was way, way stronger than Happy Chaos. Nu-13 was Happy Chaos that didn't have to reload, here BNB sent you to the other side of the screen. Her projectiles she could constantly spam with one button did not insignificant chip, her other specials would let her keep you out. There was enough pushback on one of her supers to also put you at midscreen on block. NU-13 was so busted she paid for it for the rest of the series.
@@MagmaMKII she was still allowed in tournaments and wasn't even the best character in that game just invalidated the rest of the cast that wasn't Rachel
Agree with this. Nu-13 was a monster Zoner in BB. Especially for a Tager (grappler) main like myself. Most stressful match up I played in any fighting game.
When you're so good that you get killed and replaced in the next game and when you're coming back you're still limited by the character who replaced you even though they're not here
Stance characters, Gag/Joke characters, Weird/Oddball characters, characters that transform and gain a new moveset. There's a ton of material for a part 2. Would love to see you dive more into this.
Wouldn't transform characters count as stance? Like Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer could count as stance changers, right? Does Joker count as a stance character or is he more like a "power up" character? Regardless there's also the character who is just a bunch of other character's moves mixed into one like that gooey nun from Skull Girls. And "summoner" characters who can summon multiple minions that attack automatically like Jack'O and King Dedede.
I'm surprised you didn't include King from Tekken for Grapplers, he's a prime example. Other categories could include Stance Weird (Voldo) Joke (Bosconovitch) Fake Out (Xianghua) Charge (but I'd do one separate for directional charge and button charge i.e. Chun Li and Hilde respectively) Random (characters with random elements like Faust or Dampierre) Item Set (Bang, Venom) Aerial (Yosuke) Playable Bosses Guest Characters (maybe not quite applicable for archetypes but could be done in a different kind of video, same with playable bosses)
Playable Bosses would be very interesting. I’ve not played many traditional fighting games, but the cases are usually extreme. Either they’re cracked and should’ve never been playable (Street Fighter 2 bosses), or they’re weak noodles. The latter usually happens if the boss isn’t a properly playable boss, and is more a returning character (see Shao Kahn), but I doubt many people would argue with me on that.
Jhun from KOF02UM is pretty busted and the strongest stance character i've come across. He has stong, fast and huge normals with good damage, solid specials out of stance. In stance he has 2 huge attacks that leave you plus for a really long time, a launcher that hits low, a slide that goes fullscreen in a couple of frames, a dodge which is the worst move he's got, a big step kick and a retreating stomp to change between his two stances, and a guard crush move that hard knockdowns when landed raw, and gives enough advantage to combo into a bnb, the move itself or the low launcher which opens up his stomp combo. He also has a glitch where you can skip the animation of swapping stance after doing a move. If he had better combos he would be the best character in that game which is saying something in a game where a lot of the cast have tods, unblockables, infinite pressure and vortexes. We should be glad Jhun barely has combos
Great video. I think the ultimate example of a screwed up zoner would be Old Sagat in Super Turbo. The only character I know of in a fighting game that had a soft ban. As for charge characters, I do think they're their own category. They tend to be very mid rangey most of the time. The way they play is definitely a thing of their own.
I don’t have much familiarity with it outside of friends talking about it, but for another example, in JoJo’s HFTF, Kakyoin is one of the two characters to be globally banned, largely because his keep away and trapping game is disgustingly good, combined with literally infinite airdashes. The other banned character is Pet Shop, a really pissed off bird with true, low-commitment unblockable mixups and flight.
Hmmm I think you should've mentionned release HC instead of current HC as the zoner. Current HC can zone but it doesnt feel like his main deal anymore, its something he can rely on but with the nerfs he can't just stick to that like he used to. Also glad you did 1 per series cause tbh KI 2013 does all the archetypes and makes them the coolest they've ever been.
I'd say Peacock from skullgirls is a stronger zoner because she can control the entire screen from any distance without any resource management while also having some pretty good combos if the need arises. Nu-13 is up there too for the same reason.
Would of course like to see stance characters and charge characters next time. Much appreciation for the Goro Daimon shout out, highly underrated grappler. Clark would be a solid choice too.
Also jmcrofts, a potential new series you could do is a an archetype spotlight, where you give an in-depth look at a specific character of a specific archetype. You could a few characters for each archetype, viewers would gladly give you plenty of suggestions - I can’t see it not working
One archetype I would say is install characters. For people who don't know what install characters are they are simply characters that require a move/string that gives them access to more unique buffs/tools/setups. don't get it confused with stance characters where they go into a stance to create 50/50 situations. Some good examples of "install" characters are Claudio from the Tekken series to 2D characters like Dormammu from UMVC3
Little surprised to not see a section for setplay/vortex characters since they are one of the few, truly ubiquitous, styles of character that translate into any space, and while puppet characters tend to setplay, there are a lot more ways to setplay.
the thing abt setplay characters is that setplay/vortex is usually necessarily a secondary characteristic to a character design's main gameplan. in SF6 rashid is a setplay all-arounder and kim is setplay rushdown, in KI thunder and raam are setplay grapplers, in BB and GG jubei and millia are setplay pixies, etc etc. many strong chars in their main archetype are strong bc they have consistent access to repeatable setplay (if they arent just outright killing you with damage,) so it is a very broad collection of characters to be looking at.
6:51 another character who generates walls behind the opponent is Crusader from Dungeon Fighter Duel, he can even juggle the opponent with those. Bruisers are my favourite archetype. Characters I enjoyed the most are Goldlewis from GG Strive and Alex from SF5.
Examples of more archetpes: *Charge* : As you stated on your video, but what's unique to them is not only that they have charge inputs, they also get fast startup on these mobile attacks and anti-airs, when compared to shotos. The mobile attacks in particular are usually plus on block and/or puts the attacker in a safe position against opponents that don't have long reach (May, Blanka, E-Honda). *Stance* : As you stated on the video. On the examples I'll give next I'm going with made-up names for the archetypes. The FGC probably have better names for them: *Mid-Range/Reach* : Characters that have most of their game-plan based on their superior reach, but they're not a zoner per-se. They're good for checking rushers and poking characters with strong neutrals. Charlotte from Samurai Showdown, Nagoryuki from GGST, *Set-up/Trapper* : Usually characters that create set-ups when the opponent is far away or knocked down. Not always a zoner, because some of them just put the set-up move while the opponent is down and then either safe-jump, cross-them up or rush-down while they have to deal with the trap. Cagliostro from GBVS, Jack-O from GGST. *Power Scaling:/Buffer* : A character that have a special command that makes their other moves move powerful. Some get permanent scaling with those buffs up to a certain point, others get temporary ones (or they get spent for effect). Not talking about super installs here, but characters that can do the buff at will as long they have the window for it. Jamie from SF6, Sigfried and Percival from GBVSR, Green Lantern from Injustice. *Mimic* : Perhaps the rarest ones. They're characters who can mimic their opponent's moves or from other characters that aren't even in the fight. Mokujin from Tekken, Rogue from X-Men series (or some MvC games) or Shang Tsung from Mortal Kombat.
I got so addicted to Soul Calibur 3 that in my friend group I mained Olcadan XD It turned out that a college roommate of mine also played Olcadan for a challenge and we would just have Olcadan "mirror matches" and see who would win.
Honestly Peacock from Skullgirls 2e is the best zoner to exist. She has unlimited pressure from full stage and can teleport to keep pressure from the opposite side if you somehow weave through the projectiles
If that's the case then Beo is the best grappler. My man comes equipped with zangief level grab damage, combos of a regular rush down ,character John Talbane air shoulder with combo extensions and a multi grapple like king? SIGN ME THE F*** UP.
I would love another video covering some obscure "archetypes" as someone who doesn't know much about fighting games videos like these are very interesting to watch and learn some history
I see M.O.D.O.K and JP as a subgenre of Zoners called Trappers, where their "projectiles" and the like all appear at some measured point on the screen and often wait until the opponent does something to trigger them, as opposed to them being launched directly from the player using them. Also I hear people calling characters like Sagat "Fauxto"s.
I’m really curious how they’re going to balance Akuma when he comes out in 6. Given that stun is handled completely differently than in previous games and generally character health totals are more standardized across the board in 6. As opposed to previous games like 3rd strike where they can be wildly different character to character.
@@Poison_Paradise And then we said the same thing about Aki, and then Aki came out. They're pulling out some unexpected tournament results, but all the DLC characters have actually been pretty mid in terms of power.
Having watched more of this video now, I feel like this could have been a series of videos, to include more examples of each archetype in order to give a better picture of them. Like choose one supreme example from "each" series of games, because the difference in mechanics in different series really affects how strong each character can be. Some have inherently lower power levels, so you end up with anime fighters sort of dominating.
There's a channel called "MrTopTenList" with some interesting uploads, similar iirc. Top ten characters that fight with mirrors, top10 Capoeira, elderly, puppet chars etc. It's mostly tongue-in-cheek humor and not super deep but I found a few interesting ┊ ┊ ┊ ┊ ┊ ┊ ┊ ┊ ┊ ┊ ˚★⋆｡˚ ⋆ ┊ ┊ ┊ ⋆ ┊ ┊ ★⋆ ┊ ◦ ★⋆ ┊ . ˚ ˚★
If you ever do another video like this I’d love to see the other styles of fighting game characters. I just always love hearing you talk about different fighting games. Always a good time 😊
I don't know if I'd consider charge characters an archetype (mostly it's just charge zoner, charge bruiser, the rare charge rushdown, etc), but I think stance characters could be counted as one, depending on how reliant they are on the stage.
I'd love to see a video about the strongest characters that are based off of real fighting styles. E.g. Muay Thai, Wrestling, Jeet Kun Do etc. (And maybe some love for Tekken/VF 😉) Keep up the great work!
I know it's not strictly a FG but Bowser on Smash for. is an honorable mention: He was a quite powerful grappler that had his strenghts: Had a good ground and air speed, decent frame data with some fast jabs and invincible frames on his limbs/shell, a solid counterpick for some toptiers and won a couple of regional tournaments.
It always tickles me that arguably one of the most busted characters ever put into a fighting game is the bad guy from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers :The Movie. That dude was an absolute menace.
Glad that rekka at least got an honorable mention, because Fei Long has always been one of my favorite characters, and I'm pretty salty that he hasn't really been in any of the recent games.
Only other character archetype I'd add is what I personally call "Ritual Characters". As in, a character that starts off incredibly weak but after they complete their specific "ritual", they become the most overpowered character of that game's roster. The one example I can remember off the top of my head is Phoenix Wright from MvC but I'm sure there's others. He starts off weak and has to rely on specials to stall out and keep away the opponent in order for him to collect the correct "evidence" items. Then once he completes this "ritual", he can enter Turnabout mode where he becomes oppressively strong and gains access to not only absurd normals but also the strongest lvl3 in the game.
I've heard this archetype called Level Up a few times on the internet mvc3 has a lot of them: Phoenix Wright, Phoenix, Arthur, Frank West, maybe Firebrand. Others come to mind Adult Gohan dbz, Q in sf3, hakan sf4, G sfv
Archer in Fate/Unlimited Codes can pretty much 100-0 any character if he has Unlimited Blade Works, which requires him to spend a bar of meter to say verse, and after 6 verses he can UBW
Rushdown - Zero. Top tier in every game he is in. Sougenmu loops. Pizza Cutter. Meter build. Dash teleports. Buster. Even in SvC where he has a different iteration of himself with different moves. Bruiser: Tekkaman Blade from TVC. 2nd best Pizza cutter move. Big and fast range. Big damage. Baselard is spammable and the H version is a command grab. Fast air dash. Falchion is teleport+Pizza Cutter. Zoner: UMVC3 Morrigan. Astral Vision. Soulfists. Flight. Fast normals and solid combos all around. Shoto: Just straight up Akuma. Literally made to be a shoto on roids.
I'd like to see either a version of this video or future videos to have some more 3D fighter representation. Tekken has some iconic examples of some of these types, like King as a grappler or Jack as a bruiser, but also there's a whole other world of archetypes available in 3D games that I don't even know if I'd know how to identify. Dancers? Bruce Lees? Maybe weapon fighters could use more love too.
3d Tekken archetypes are just a completely separate thing Shoto is replaced with Mishima, because, as we have learned, having Shoto in Tekken is broken as hell. Grapplers are pressure based not free damage based, because you can break command grabs. Everyone in the game has two stances minimum: Standing or Crouching. Rushdown and Bruiser are fundamentally different because the game is 8-10 frame based, so holes in pressure are all bigger and blockstrings simply don't exist. It's just frame traps and you only get one try if it's mid, I.E. true trap. Bruiser just means the move they rely on to get plus frame into their counterhit frame trap are slow mids, and Rushdown means they're fast highs. Zoner is replaced with Keepout. Puppet is only ever aesthetic, it doesn't actually exist. Etc.
I think if we're on the topic of zoners you could have also mentioned Vatista from Undernight Inbirth, or Vlov from Melty Blood Type Lumina. They both have been dominating their respective games for a long time now.
While those characters are strong, they didn’t make the entire fighter a 2 character game like Rachel did. Original BlazBlue was literally just Rachel and sometimes Nu-13, who was also a zoner. Every other character in the game didn’t have the tools to catch Rachel’s insane runaway game.
@pon3d120 Rachel zoning is not really a traditional zoning since she has to set up and throw things, BEFORE running up to opponents and attack. I'm Rachel Player BTW
@@pon3d120 I don't think you played much of either game then if you think that haha. I don't mean any disrespect, but Vlov definitely made the game feel singleplayer for a lot of people if the Vlov player was even remotely good
Didn't expect him to pop up there, but Daimon is the correct choice! His walk cycle is what you'd expect from a big grappler, but his dash is deceptively fast. This opens up access to some devastating strings. He's also the only character who gets his own shorter distance roll. But most of all, his moves are all just absolutely demoralizing to the other player, being slammed around like a rag doll and smashed to the ground in single hits. One other interesting archetype worth bringing up are hybrid grapplers - characters like Blue Mary or Lily who have big command grabs to set up, but lots of other tools as well like SRKs or distance-closing specials. The trade-off is usually that they do less damage on their throws.
I could argue that Kenshi is another great choice for the puppet archetype, especially now in mk1. Crazy damage and (almost) unblockable combos and engages make this dude horribly difficult to play against
A few things I'd like to add with Carl and Shabrys in particular is that Carl's doll has collision so you have your sandwich pressure/combos but by having her behind Carl and moving forward you essentially negate some of your pushback allowing you to do really extended pressure sequences usually in the corner which can just melt people's barrier, and for Shabrys the doll has a command grab that you can combo off of while also getting checkmate scenarios in some situations as you can't block in the air for a few frames so there's setups where Labrys will get an air-to-air if you jump the doll or the doll will command grab if you stay on the ground and both setups loop into each other. Relius is also a puppet/summon character who had unblockables in at least CF where you'd scale a combo heavily and restand them with 236D and combo into his gear super, you then jab them to overwrite the super's fixed hitstun and force them to block or get reset by the rest of the super which if they do block you have unblockable setups using 236D(natural unblockable, 42 frames if unsummoned and 32 if already out) and 214D(31 frame high so 5B-2B-2C lines up a high and low) since you get 40 frames where both the doll and Relius are actionable which is not supposed to happen normally
Relius is one of my favorite puppet masters of all time. They made him slightly easier to use than Carl but still kept the usual puppet shenanigans, which meant that more people would play him.
My list for these archetypes would've been: Rushdown - Pet Shop [Jojo's] Zoner - Kabal [MK9] Grappler - Marduk [T7] (was tempted to say Marth from SSBM but I feel like that's kind of cheating) Bruiser - Nagoriyuki [GGST] (I'm not sure if he fits perfectly but I feel fits better here than any other category) Puppet - Carl [BBCT] Shoto - Akuma [Literally every game he's in] Definitely cool to see KoF and KI be talked about, I definitely wouldn't have known enough about them to know how strong those guys are
Definitely need a second part including counter/defense/parry characters which is one of my favorite hidden gem archetypes. I’m a certified through-and-through grappler main, but man I sure do love me a good ol’ slow-moving, heavy-hitting character with a special move parry or a few in their arsenal mmmm
I think rekkas could be considered an archetype and also "unlock" character which has some aspect of them locked at the start of the match like Jamie or Susanoo from BlazBlue
I would argue that Jamie, like HO Sol is an install character. I think Rekka characters are basically Unlock characters, at least in the previous gen where they gated powerful moves behind a rekka. There are characters that unlock moves through performing rekkas. ABA seems to be closest to what i am talking about @@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361
Rekka is just a form of attack; just the name of the move type some Rushdown chars use You wouldn't say DP is an archetype even if someone has multiple and it's their main gameplan to use it Zangief isn't an SPD character he is a Grappler
i dont think its quite accurate to call magneto and hc rushdown and zoner characters imo. part of what makes them so strong is that they’re so good at forcing their way in OR keeping the opponent out depending on what they want to do
World Warrior Guile is the Elder God of zoners and it's not even close. If we only count games with a semblance of balance, Season 1 Ferry from GBVS was perfect and wrecking a cast of generally high power characters with well rounded kits. She also wasn't a mistake like HC, her power came from being the most fundamentally sound version of the Dhalsim function in a game without ST Vega/Balrog to ruin her life.
Personally I think Fox from Melee is the most iconic rushdown character of all time. He is so well-known as the mascot of the game that even non-melee players have made memes about how oppressive he is.
Hell yeah Aganos! He was so fun to play and it was interesting for such a slow character to require setting up for the things you want to do. I also loved how he had so many options of how to spend his unique resource... even to the point where you can take your club and swing it or choose to throw it at the opponent. XD Also, I find armor to be a very frustrating mechanic (often super cheap way to avoid footsies) but it wasn't so bad in this case for a number of reasons, including the fact that heavy attacks against him would ignore armor. Aganos is one of the most unique and well designed fighting game characters of all time. Rarely do you play a slow character in a game and not feel horribly disadvantaged by it... but he feels amazing.
I've always considered ice climbers the most broken puppet character specifically in brawl they get a free 0-death from any grab against the entire cast they slow an already slow game to a crawl and because of the tripping mechanic you cant even use your characters movement to reliably bait them it was horrible to play against and to spectate.
It would be kinda cool to cover run away characters. Not actual zoners, but characters like Valentine from skugs and Jiggly puff who just try to frustrate the opponent into doing something dumb
I think a cool character archetype you didn’t mention was the special meter character. Characters that have their own special meter along with the meter(s) that everybody else has like Johnny Cage in MK1 or Phoenix Wright in UMvC3. They tend to usually be pretty interesting characters so that’s why I like them. I was also thinking about item characters like Cody and Vega in SF4 but I don’t know if there’s any other games that have the same thing.
I know you don’t really play platform fighters, but I’m still kinda sad you didn’t even talk briefly about anyone from them. Like Rosalina was a notoriously good puppet fighter in Smash 4. Or Sylvanos in Rivals was such a good zoner that they eventually had to completely rework a few of his normals with new animations.
characters that work on reversals could almost be a type. Like Eagle / Geese Howard / Wang Jin Rey. etc. And characters like Nina from Dead or alive take 'grappling' to a whole other level with OTG multi grapples.
Best rushdown: cowboy from yomi hustle Best grappler: robot from yomi hustle Best bruiser: robot from yomi hustle Best zoner: wizard from yomi hustle Best puppet: wizard from yomi hustle Best shoto: ninja from yomi hustle I love yomi hustle
I feel like Smash's "heavies" category really makes some strong "bruisers" as well. For instance, Bowser in Smash Ultimate. Really fast, lots of armor (even different types of armor). Can take some hits, has a lot of range and is doing big damage, but isn't completely focused on grabs (though his grabs are strong).
@@TakaComics I definitely get that. I do feel that some of the basics still apply though when it comes to archetypes. Smash still has categories like rush down, grapplers etc. Smash still plays the RPS of grab/attack/block. The mechanics are a little more different than the difference between air-dash games and SF for instance, but at it's core, it's a fighting game and a lot of the core concepts exist.
I think a better word for "set-up" is Install, because trap characters have to "set-up" their hazards or debuffs, but they do not Install them Install, Trap, Stance Comeback characters are also maybe an archetype, but my main example is Lucky Chloe from Tekken 7, and Tekken archetypes are completely skewed variations of normal FG ones.
6:50 One fihgitng game character who's can build walls, and are a tough guy is Texas from Them's Fighting Herds. I would recommend taking a look, btw nice work, cool video
Ik theres set-up characters, like yeah you can setup with most characters but specifically your gameplan is to setup. There are characters thst unlock their moves throughout a match like Jamie in SF6 or thr guy with 7 swords in Samsho. Joke characters are a given. I would put ninjas as a subclass of rushdown... Bar earthquake Disablers or characters that want to put effects on their enemy. And i once heard someone say jac in mk11 was a "bulldog" archtype
I will continue telling the world to check this game out, but if you wanna talk zoners, you should check out what is essentially "Zoners: The Game," Touhou Hisoutensoku. I hear it had a side tourney at Evo this year. There is one character that is basically a Shoto/Puppet/Rekka, one that is vaguely rushdown, and everyone else is a nutso zoner; in fact despite only being a 3-button fighter, two of those buttons are dedicated to ranged attacks and motion-input specials. Only thing that really sucks is its a kusoge discord fighter from like 2010, so documentation is limited to a dedicated wiki and a small handful of youtube videos.
i think you should've given an honorable mention to accent core pot, his strike throw was crazy as anything could've been a tick throw with HFB and he also had crazy combos with APB and on top of that he had unblockable loops that he could get off of basically anything, including a 18 frame overhead that shared a startup animation with a low i know a lot of these strengths arent the grab but thats why i said honorable mention
One of my favorite moments in fighting games is when I was facing a Bane in Injustice 2 and when he got knocked down I went for a neutral jump to call out a power grab and instead he quick stood up an anti air grabbed to me into the Hulk Smash full combo with interactables and screen transition.
The thing about fighter archetypes is that there are so many that are like, sub-versions of the main ones, it'd start to get crazy. "Pixie" and "the wall" are kind of good examples that at least stand out a bit from the various sub-archetypes. Pixies being all about super great movement, with the ability to control the pace of the game, but usually weak damage with low health.(dance around, get in fast, get out fast type of deal) Walls are just your mega defense play characters with strong turtle and punish game while usually having high health. There are just so many sub-archetypes people list out there that the line starts to get fuzzy, as lots of characters can be played AS a few types, without actually being it.
far as other archetypes go, i don't personally count charge characters as their own, simply because every charge character fits a different archetype, like guile being a zoner and balrog being a bully, speaking of which bullies like urien would be fun to see you pick a number one for
Alice from Asura Buster: Eternal Warriors is an insane puppet character, she can control skeleton during hitstun, and he does unscaled damage in combos. Look up footage of AhiruWho using Alice
I have to mention Kabal in mk9, not only did he have one of the best zonings in the game, but also the best rushdown too, being full of block strings and cancels that would keep him safe most of the time.
I always defined a Bruiser/Brawler as a character with strong normals and pressure from plus frames that make your opponent scared to press a button because a wrong guess means almost your whole life bar. (Slayer,Marisa,Azrael,Etc.)
Me personally, I always defined it as "Big-body with large and slow normals that does a lot of damage" There are also some other semi-consistent traits among them(typically poor defense, minimal projectiles armor) but that's the basic minimum.
I love that you gave so many series a bit of love here. "Composite characters", as I've been calling them, are a favorite theme I enjoy playing. Characters who are specifically designed to be "a little bit of everyone". Street Fighter's "Seth" is probably a better known example. Soul Calibur's "Edge Master" is such a character, but doesn't work for comparison. "Necrid" better falls into this archetype, sad that he got dropped. Skullgirls "Double" is another good one. Dragon Ball has multiple characters in this archetype, but whether it is emphasized in gameplay varies. Kirby almost counts, but Copy is only prevalent in casual play.
For Tekken, you've got King and Nina as grapplers; Jack and Kuma as bruisers, and Ogre as "shoto" - probably one of the strongest shoto style characters ever.
I remember Darun from Street Fighter EX 2 being considered super strong and it might have been in 3 as well. Pretty sure he is a grappler, but he gets big grab combos.
Setplay/setup characters might be a niche part of zoners/puppet characters, but still worth talking about imo: Venom from GG, Nappa from DBFZ, Frank West from UMvC3 or even A.K.I. From SF6 I'd consider being setplay.
Solid list. I assume you wanted game variety since I think Cable would have also been a fantastic rep for zoners. Goro is a great, if lesser known, pick.
In terms of rushdowns, I feel like Pet Shop in HFTF deserves a mention. In many ways, he actually outshines Magneto (insane aerial mobility as a bird, a "run" that can go fullscreen before some characters can finish their dash, insane block pressure thanks to his ability to charge and release projectiles independent of his other actions, and is able to convert into a ToD off of literally ANY move). His only real weakness is his tiny health pool, but his tiny hurtbox and mobility, as well as his pressure and above-average zoning and trapping capabilities on top of his already insane rushdown make it impossible for most characters to touch him. As a result, he's pretty much universally banned from ranked fightcade and tournaments. When the bird inevitability touches you, the only thing that you can so is pray for them to drop the combo. The biggest reason why Pet Shop's blockstrings ans combos are so oppressive is because of his icicles. After holding down A, B, or C for about a second, an icicle appears on the ceiling in front of Pet Shop, with the distance determined by the button held but never going past the corner. Starting a combo with d.C, holding it, and continuing the combo with A will set up an icicle, and letting go will drop it, allowing Pet Shop to land another C or d.C. You can also start with d.A, and simply hold B or C before you can buffer the next move. It's possible to charge up to 3 icicles at once by holding A, B, and C, while simultaneously attacking with S instead. Although you can't loop an infinite more than 3 times in most legal settings, it's not necessary, as Pet Shop can instead extend with moves like 3C or 2S. 2S is specifically useful, as is not only does a good deal of damage, but also combos into every one of Pet Shop's supers. 236AA is generally used, as it only consumes one level of meter and infinitely loops into itself, but you can also follow up with 214AA or his Raging Demon (yes, the bird has a Raging Demon). Being able to confirm into a ToD off of any stray hit (in tandem with Icicle) already makes Pet Shop a menace, but combining that with his perfectly safe pressure (icicles are also overheads, so proper usage results in unblockable setups), phenomonal mobility, anti-zoning tools (able to hit 2S and icicles anywhere on screen, and hitting someone in HFTF negates their projectiles) and low skill floor make him both the ideal rushdown character and easy to play. I can understand not knowing of him, since HFTF is a niche game with a small competitive scene, but its certain that Pet Shop still outclasses most of, if not all, rushdown characters in traditional fighters.
If you where to do a second part I think a good few categories would be Joke characters Trap/setup characters powerup/install characters (I.e Jamie, Ultimate gohan) Punish characters (characters who are usually defensive but have massive strong moves that do a lot of damage) You can do more niche ones too like Item play characters, switch in characters, and many more.
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all characters are rushdown if you are crazy enough
Even ZONERS
XD
PREACH
This statement is the reason dbfz exists
Soooooo true
@@harelrc7296 XD
NU-13 in the original Blazblue was way, way stronger than Happy Chaos.
Nu-13 was Happy Chaos that didn't have to reload, here BNB sent you to the other side of the screen. Her projectiles she could constantly spam with one button did not insignificant chip, her other specials would let her keep you out. There was enough pushback on one of her supers to also put you at midscreen on block.
NU-13 was so busted she paid for it for the rest of the series.
Well she was a boss character so there's that.
Started as a Final Boss
Makes sense
XD
@@MagmaMKII she was still allowed in tournaments and wasn't even the best character in that game just invalidated the rest of the cast that wasn't Rachel
Agree with this. Nu-13 was a monster Zoner in BB.
Especially for a Tager (grappler) main like myself. Most stressful match up I played in any fighting game.
When you're so good that you get killed and replaced in the next game and when you're coming back you're still limited by the character who replaced you even though they're not here
Stance characters, Gag/Joke characters, Weird/Oddball characters, characters that transform and gain a new moveset. There's a ton of material for a part 2. Would love to see you dive more into this.
Lowain from Granblue is the best gag character ever
Trap/Setup characters
Parry characters like my main man Anji too
Wouldn't transform characters count as stance? Like Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer could count as stance changers, right? Does Joker count as a stance character or is he more like a "power up" character? Regardless there's also the character who is just a bunch of other character's moves mixed into one like that gooey nun from Skull Girls. And "summoner" characters who can summon multiple minions that attack automatically like Jack'O and King Dedede.
Neko-Mech is a crazy good joke character. Being two jokes stapled together ended up being top tier.
The fact that Peacock and Nu-13 aren't the zoner here is a missed opportunity
I actually only clicked to say the same thing but about morrigan(UMVC3) and Justice(GG AC)
I agree, Peacock is actually insane
@@yourauntsusan3305Damn right, I'm always caught off guard when a Peacock player rushes me down instead of zoning at round start.
Also expected Big Band to feature in the bruiser spot. He's a common top tier in a game where it's REALLY DANGEROUS to be as big as he is
I sort of expected Hilda or Merkava in that category
I'm surprised you didn't include King from Tekken for Grapplers, he's a prime example.
Other categories could include
Stance
Weird (Voldo)
Joke (Bosconovitch)
Fake Out (Xianghua)
Charge (but I'd do one separate for directional charge and button charge i.e. Chun Li and Hilde respectively)
Random (characters with random elements like Faust or Dampierre)
Item Set (Bang, Venom)
Aerial (Yosuke)
Playable Bosses
Guest Characters (maybe not quite applicable for archetypes but could be done in a different kind of video, same with playable bosses)
Goated list
Playable Bosses would be very interesting.
I’ve not played many traditional fighting games, but the cases are usually extreme. Either they’re cracked and should’ve never been playable (Street Fighter 2 bosses), or they’re weak noodles. The latter usually happens if the boss isn’t a properly playable boss, and is more a returning character (see Shao Kahn), but I doubt many people would argue with me on that.
Yeah I was thinking King too. Those chain throws go hard and it's its own metagame for the duration of it
Dan is the best joke character imo
You forgot one category
Faust (Faust)
Stance Characters are an archetype I'm loving so seeing a strong version of that is interesting
Lei wulong
Hwoarang!
@s3dghost love Lei wulong, just picked him up and learning him in tekken 7
While not strong, Narmaya from GBVS is one of the stance characters that really stood out for me.
Jhun from KOF02UM is pretty busted and the strongest stance character i've come across.
He has stong, fast and huge normals with good damage, solid specials out of stance.
In stance he has 2 huge attacks that leave you plus for a really long time, a launcher that hits low, a slide that goes fullscreen in a couple of frames, a dodge which is the worst move he's got, a big step kick and a retreating stomp to change between his two stances, and a guard crush move that hard knockdowns when landed raw, and gives enough advantage to combo into a bnb, the move itself or the low launcher which opens up his stomp combo. He also has a glitch where you can skip the animation of swapping stance after doing a move. If he had better combos he would be the best character in that game which is saying something in a game where a lot of the cast have tods, unblockables, infinite pressure and vortexes. We should be glad Jhun barely has combos
Faust has been an incredibly strong top-tier item throw character for a lot of the Guilty Gear games.
For Bruiser, the Crusader from DNF Duel has a very similar “create your own wall” mechanic alongside some ridiculous hitboxes
Yup!!!!
I'm impressed dude!!! The grappler choice was perfect, 100% accurate!! And really surprising from you!! That was a great pick man!! Excellent video!!
For ai though gaira is the worse grappler in samurai showdown 4 he can 1 shot you off his throw
I’d love to see a “strangest character in each archetype” video that goes over characters who embody their archetypes in atypical ways.
Great video. I think the ultimate example of a screwed up zoner would be Old Sagat in Super Turbo. The only character I know of in a fighting game that had a soft ban. As for charge characters, I do think they're their own category. They tend to be very mid rangey most of the time. The way they play is definitely a thing of their own.
Rugal from KOF is also famous for being soft banned
@@2Eliishere I didn't hear this until you mentioned it. But I can definitely see why he'd be banned
I don’t have much familiarity with it outside of friends talking about it, but for another example, in JoJo’s HFTF, Kakyoin is one of the two characters to be globally banned, largely because his keep away and trapping game is disgustingly good, combined with literally infinite airdashes. The other banned character is Pet Shop, a really pissed off bird with true, low-commitment unblockable mixups and flight.
Hmmm I think you should've mentionned release HC instead of current HC as the zoner. Current HC can zone but it doesnt feel like his main deal anymore, its something he can rely on but with the nerfs he can't just stick to that like he used to.
Also glad you did 1 per series cause tbh KI 2013 does all the archetypes and makes them the coolest they've ever been.
I'd say Peacock from skullgirls is a stronger zoner because she can control the entire screen from any distance without any resource management while also having some pretty good combos if the need arises. Nu-13 is up there too for the same reason.
yeah peacock / mvc3 morrigan both feel like they're more "zoner" like, chaos is just a complete package
Would of course like to see stance characters and charge characters next time. Much appreciation for the Goro Daimon shout out, highly underrated grappler. Clark would be a solid choice too.
Also jmcrofts, a potential new series you could do is a an archetype spotlight, where you give an in-depth look at a specific character of a specific archetype. You could a few characters for each archetype, viewers would gladly give you plenty of suggestions - I can’t see it not working
One archetype I would say is install characters.
For people who don't know what install characters are they are simply characters that require a move/string that gives them access to more unique buffs/tools/setups. don't get it confused with stance characters where they go into a stance to create 50/50 situations.
Some good examples of "install" characters are Claudio from the Tekken series to 2D characters like Dormammu from UMVC3
Also "Stance dancers" like Gen in SF IV.
If Dark Phoenix counts, its her
@@garymcginnis8511I love that the Dark Phoenix game plan is "Congrats you win."
Colossus, Silver Samurai, and Rouge in MvC2 are like this as well.
Little surprised to not see a section for setplay/vortex characters since they are one of the few, truly ubiquitous, styles of character that translate into any space, and while puppet characters tend to setplay, there are a lot more ways to setplay.
the thing abt setplay characters is that setplay/vortex is usually necessarily a secondary characteristic to a character design's main gameplan. in SF6 rashid is a setplay all-arounder and kim is setplay rushdown, in KI thunder and raam are setplay grapplers, in BB and GG jubei and millia are setplay pixies, etc etc. many strong chars in their main archetype are strong bc they have consistent access to repeatable setplay (if they arent just outright killing you with damage,) so it is a very broad collection of characters to be looking at.
@@DEClimax Yeah and it is very broad to a point you have faust and millia in same group then for example.
6:51 another character who generates walls behind the opponent is Crusader from Dungeon Fighter Duel, he can even juggle the opponent with those. Bruisers are my favourite archetype. Characters I enjoyed the most are Goldlewis from GG Strive and Alex from SF5.
Examples of more archetpes:
*Charge* : As you stated on your video, but what's unique to them is not only that they have charge inputs, they also get fast startup on these mobile attacks and anti-airs, when compared to shotos. The mobile attacks in particular are usually plus on block and/or puts the attacker in a safe position against opponents that don't have long reach (May, Blanka, E-Honda).
*Stance* : As you stated on the video.
On the examples I'll give next I'm going with made-up names for the archetypes. The FGC probably have better names for them:
*Mid-Range/Reach* : Characters that have most of their game-plan based on their superior reach, but they're not a zoner per-se. They're good for checking rushers and poking characters with strong neutrals. Charlotte from Samurai Showdown, Nagoryuki from GGST,
*Set-up/Trapper* : Usually characters that create set-ups when the opponent is far away or knocked down. Not always a zoner, because some of them just put the set-up move while the opponent is down and then either safe-jump, cross-them up or rush-down while they have to deal with the trap. Cagliostro from GBVS, Jack-O from GGST.
*Power Scaling:/Buffer* : A character that have a special command that makes their other moves move powerful. Some get permanent scaling with those buffs up to a certain point, others get temporary ones (or they get spent for effect). Not talking about super installs here, but characters that can do the buff at will as long they have the window for it. Jamie from SF6, Sigfried and Percival from GBVSR, Green Lantern from Injustice.
*Mimic* : Perhaps the rarest ones. They're characters who can mimic their opponent's moves or from other characters that aren't even in the fight. Mokujin from Tekken, Rogue from X-Men series (or some MvC games) or Shang Tsung from Mortal Kombat.
I got so addicted to Soul Calibur 3 that in my friend group I mained Olcadan XD It turned out that a college roommate of mine also played Olcadan for a challenge and we would just have Olcadan "mirror matches" and see who would win.
Honestly Peacock from Skullgirls 2e is the best zoner to exist.
She has unlimited pressure from full stage and can teleport to keep pressure from the opposite side if you somehow weave through the projectiles
If that's the case then Beo is the best grappler. My man comes equipped with zangief level grab damage, combos of a regular rush down ,character John Talbane air shoulder with combo extensions and a multi grapple like king? SIGN ME THE F*** UP.
I would argue Deadshot from Injustice 2
So true dude
By the time you get in on peacock you already lost half your lifebar or more just from the chip lmfao
Would love to see a part 2!
- Stance (Gen, Lei)
- Rekka (Iori, Feilong, Kyo)
- Charge (Guile, Bison)
- Big Bodies (Abigail, Marisa, Kuma)
- Footsies? (Luke, Benimaru)
- Reversals? (Geese)
- Mimics? (Mokujin, Eleven, Charade)
- Trappers? (Testament, Arakune, Rocket Racoon)
- Joke? (Norimaro, Dan, and the goat Shingo)
Dude, you really make some of the most interesting and comprehensive fighting game content out there. Keep doing good work!
I would love another video covering some obscure "archetypes" as someone who doesn't know much about fighting games videos like these are very interesting to watch and learn some history
I see M.O.D.O.K and JP as a subgenre of Zoners called Trappers, where their "projectiles" and the like all appear at some measured point on the screen and often wait until the opponent does something to trigger them, as opposed to them being launched directly from the player using them.
Also I hear people calling characters like Sagat "Fauxto"s.
Personally I think this video should’ve had honorable mentions because there were a lot of essential picks missing, great video either way🫶🏼
I’m really curious how they’re going to balance Akuma when he comes out in 6. Given that stun is handled completely differently than in previous games and generally character health totals are more standardized across the board in 6. As opposed to previous games like 3rd strike where they can be wildly different character to character.
Maybe he will be slower to build Drive
They might possibly make it where his OD moves could cost more drive gauge.
That's easy, they WON'T.
He'll be a better zoner than JP with more damage than Marisa and Cammy's walkspeed. Also the best divekick.
@@shaunmcisaac782 we literally all said this about Rashid, and then Rashid came out
@@Poison_Paradise And then we said the same thing about Aki, and then Aki came out. They're pulling out some unexpected tournament results, but all the DLC characters have actually been pretty mid in terms of power.
Having watched more of this video now, I feel like this could have been a series of videos, to include more examples of each archetype in order to give a better picture of them.
Like choose one supreme example from "each" series of games, because the difference in mechanics in different series really affects how strong each character can be. Some have inherently lower power levels, so you end up with anime fighters sort of dominating.
This! I think it would be really interesting to talk about what makes a good or too good example of each and what it does to the overall gameplay.
Sounds like one of y’all need to start a YT channel I’ll watch
Totally agree. It would be a very interesting series.
Why do you think he didn't do Charge, Ariel, Stance, or Counter? Another video will come with our responses.
There's a channel called "MrTopTenList" with some interesting uploads, similar iirc. Top ten characters that fight with mirrors, top10 Capoeira, elderly, puppet chars etc.
It's mostly tongue-in-cheek humor and not super deep but I found a few interesting
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I'm surprised the zoner wasn't from an Injustice game. NRS has made some famously strong zoners.
NRS zoners are usually strong because NRS movement is ass.
This channel hates nrs games, they are addicted to hadokens.
One of the first things that came to my mind for zoners was Deathstroke.
He said he was gonna talk about games he’s more knowledgeable in and I assume he doesn’t rlly play nrs games
I love videos in this style. Even niche archetypes should get some love. Hope to see more.
If you ever do another video like this I’d love to see the other styles of fighting game characters. I just always love hearing you talk about different fighting games. Always a good time 😊
I don't know if I'd consider charge characters an archetype (mostly it's just charge zoner, charge bruiser, the rare charge rushdown, etc), but I think stance characters could be counted as one, depending on how reliant they are on the stage.
Ice Climbers from Smash (Melee/Ultimate) definitely deserve a mention in the puppet category
I'd love to see a video about the strongest characters that are based off of real fighting styles. E.g. Muay Thai, Wrestling, Jeet Kun Do etc.
(And maybe some love for Tekken/VF 😉) Keep up the great work!
I know it's not strictly a FG but Bowser on Smash for. is an honorable mention: He was a quite powerful grappler that had his strenghts: Had a good ground and air speed, decent frame data with some fast jabs and invincible frames on his limbs/shell, a solid counterpick for some toptiers and won a couple of regional tournaments.
So we’re just gonna ignore Ivan Ooze from the power rangers fighting game as a zoner? Okay.
It always tickles me that arguably one of the most busted characters ever put into a fighting game is the bad guy from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers :The Movie. That dude was an absolute menace.
Glad that rekka at least got an honorable mention, because Fei Long has always been one of my favorite characters, and I'm pretty salty that he hasn't really been in any of the recent games.
Only other character archetype I'd add is what I personally call "Ritual Characters". As in, a character that starts off incredibly weak but after they complete their specific "ritual", they become the most overpowered character of that game's roster. The one example I can remember off the top of my head is Phoenix Wright from MvC but I'm sure there's others. He starts off weak and has to rely on specials to stall out and keep away the opponent in order for him to collect the correct "evidence" items. Then once he completes this "ritual", he can enter Turnabout mode where he becomes oppressively strong and gains access to not only absurd normals but also the strongest lvl3 in the game.
3rd strike chun
I've heard this archetype called Level Up a few times on the internet mvc3 has a lot of them: Phoenix Wright, Phoenix, Arthur, Frank West, maybe Firebrand. Others come to mind Adult Gohan dbz, Q in sf3, hakan sf4, G sfv
Archer in Fate/Unlimited Codes can pretty much 100-0 any character if he has Unlimited Blade Works, which requires him to spend a bar of meter to say verse, and after 6 verses he can UBW
Thanks for including Goro Daimon. Him and Clark had me sweating just clear the round back in the day.
NRS zoners go crazy
Rushdown - Zero. Top tier in every game he is in. Sougenmu loops. Pizza Cutter. Meter build. Dash teleports. Buster. Even in SvC where he has a different iteration of himself with different moves.
Bruiser: Tekkaman Blade from TVC. 2nd best Pizza cutter move. Big and fast range. Big damage. Baselard is spammable and the H version is a command grab. Fast air dash. Falchion is teleport+Pizza Cutter.
Zoner: UMVC3 Morrigan. Astral Vision. Soulfists. Flight. Fast normals and solid combos all around.
Shoto: Just straight up Akuma. Literally made to be a shoto on roids.
I'd like to see either a version of this video or future videos to have some more 3D fighter representation. Tekken has some iconic examples of some of these types, like King as a grappler or Jack as a bruiser, but also there's a whole other world of archetypes available in 3D games that I don't even know if I'd know how to identify. Dancers? Bruce Lees? Maybe weapon fighters could use more love too.
3d Tekken archetypes are just a completely separate thing
Shoto is replaced with Mishima, because, as we have learned, having Shoto in Tekken is broken as hell.
Grapplers are pressure based not free damage based, because you can break command grabs.
Everyone in the game has two stances minimum: Standing or Crouching.
Rushdown and Bruiser are fundamentally different because the game is 8-10 frame based, so holes in pressure are all bigger and blockstrings simply don't exist. It's just frame traps and you only get one try if it's mid, I.E. true trap. Bruiser just means the move they rely on to get plus frame into their counterhit frame trap are slow mids, and Rushdown means they're fast highs.
Zoner is replaced with Keepout.
Puppet is only ever aesthetic, it doesn't actually exist.
Etc.
Kinda new to FGC, it's always neat to see these video going across all games.
I think if we're on the topic of zoners you could have also mentioned Vatista from Undernight Inbirth, or Vlov from Melty Blood Type Lumina.
They both have been dominating their respective games for a long time now.
sorry no weeb games
@@vitorodino8760 blazblue be like
While those characters are strong, they didn’t make the entire fighter a 2 character game like Rachel did. Original BlazBlue was literally just Rachel and sometimes Nu-13, who was also a zoner. Every other character in the game didn’t have the tools to catch Rachel’s insane runaway game.
@pon3d120 Rachel zoning is not really a traditional zoning since she has to set up and throw things, BEFORE running up to opponents and attack.
I'm Rachel Player BTW
@@pon3d120 I don't think you played much of either game then if you think that haha.
I don't mean any disrespect, but Vlov definitely made the game feel singleplayer for a lot of people if the Vlov player was even remotely good
Didn't expect him to pop up there, but Daimon is the correct choice! His walk cycle is what you'd expect from a big grappler, but his dash is deceptively fast. This opens up access to some devastating strings. He's also the only character who gets his own shorter distance roll. But most of all, his moves are all just absolutely demoralizing to the other player, being slammed around like a rag doll and smashed to the ground in single hits. One other interesting archetype worth bringing up are hybrid grapplers - characters like Blue Mary or Lily who have big command grabs to set up, but lots of other tools as well like SRKs or distance-closing specials. The trade-off is usually that they do less damage on their throws.
I could argue that Kenshi is another great choice for the puppet archetype, especially now in mk1. Crazy damage and (almost) unblockable combos and engages make this dude horribly difficult to play against
A few things I'd like to add with Carl and Shabrys in particular is that Carl's doll has collision so you have your sandwich pressure/combos but by having her behind Carl and moving forward you essentially negate some of your pushback allowing you to do really extended pressure sequences usually in the corner which can just melt people's barrier, and for Shabrys the doll has a command grab that you can combo off of while also getting checkmate scenarios in some situations as you can't block in the air for a few frames so there's setups where Labrys will get an air-to-air if you jump the doll or the doll will command grab if you stay on the ground and both setups loop into each other. Relius is also a puppet/summon character who had unblockables in at least CF where you'd scale a combo heavily and restand them with 236D and combo into his gear super, you then jab them to overwrite the super's fixed hitstun and force them to block or get reset by the rest of the super which if they do block you have unblockable setups using 236D(natural unblockable, 42 frames if unsummoned and 32 if already out) and 214D(31 frame high so 5B-2B-2C lines up a high and low) since you get 40 frames where both the doll and Relius are actionable which is not supposed to happen normally
Relius is one of my favorite puppet masters of all time. They made him slightly easier to use than Carl but still kept the usual puppet shenanigans, which meant that more people would play him.
My list for these archetypes would've been:
Rushdown - Pet Shop [Jojo's]
Zoner - Kabal [MK9]
Grappler - Marduk [T7] (was tempted to say Marth from SSBM but I feel like that's kind of cheating)
Bruiser - Nagoriyuki [GGST] (I'm not sure if he fits perfectly but I feel fits better here than any other category)
Puppet - Carl [BBCT]
Shoto - Akuma [Literally every game he's in]
Definitely cool to see KoF and KI be talked about, I definitely wouldn't have known enough about them to know how strong those guys are
I'm 100% with you on a few of these. JM Doesn't have a lot of experience with NRS games so I forgive him, but NRS zoners are in a whole other league.
Definitely need a second part including counter/defense/parry characters which is one of my favorite hidden gem archetypes. I’m a certified through-and-through grappler main, but man I sure do love me a good ol’ slow-moving, heavy-hitting character with a special move parry or a few in their arsenal mmmm
I think rekkas could be considered an archetype and also "unlock" character which has some aspect of them locked at the start of the match like Jamie or Susanoo from BlazBlue
What would differentiate an "unlock" character from an install character? (not sure if they're the samething now)
@@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361 It's likely the same thing and they are just calling it something else.
I would argue that Jamie, like HO Sol is an install character. I think Rekka characters are basically Unlock characters, at least in the previous gen where they gated powerful moves behind a rekka. There are characters that unlock moves through performing rekkas. ABA seems to be closest to what i am talking about @@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361
Rekka is just a form of attack; just the name of the move type some Rushdown chars use
You wouldn't say DP is an archetype even if someone has multiple and it's their main gameplan to use it
Zangief isn't an SPD character he is a Grappler
We call them snowball characters.
Deadshot from Injustice 2 was a crazy zoner.
Juggernaut in X-Men vs. Street Fighter is my favorite brawler of all time. He was always a pale shadow of this in the other Marvel games.
i dont think its quite accurate to call magneto and hc rushdown and zoner characters imo. part of what makes them so strong is that they’re so good at forcing their way in OR keeping the opponent out depending on what they want to do
World Warrior Guile is the Elder God of zoners and it's not even close.
If we only count games with a semblance of balance, Season 1 Ferry from GBVS was perfect and wrecking a cast of generally high power characters with well rounded kits. She also wasn't a mistake like HC, her power came from being the most fundamentally sound version of the Dhalsim function in a game without ST Vega/Balrog to ruin her life.
No King?? Mentioning Grapplers but no King is crazy. 😢
I feel like setplay characters(Beerus from DBFZ, GG's Millia, and a few others) definitely deserve some kind of mention if this vid ever gets a sequel
Personally I think Fox from Melee is the most iconic rushdown character of all time. He is so well-known as the mascot of the game that even non-melee players have made memes about how oppressive he is.
Hell yeah Aganos! He was so fun to play and it was interesting for such a slow character to require setting up for the things you want to do. I also loved how he had so many options of how to spend his unique resource... even to the point where you can take your club and swing it or choose to throw it at the opponent. XD
Also, I find armor to be a very frustrating mechanic (often super cheap way to avoid footsies) but it wasn't so bad in this case for a number of reasons, including the fact that heavy attacks against him would ignore armor. Aganos is one of the most unique and well designed fighting game characters of all time. Rarely do you play a slow character in a game and not feel horribly disadvantaged by it... but he feels amazing.
I've always considered ice climbers the most broken puppet character specifically in brawl they get a free 0-death from any grab against the entire cast they slow an already slow game to a crawl and because of the tripping mechanic you cant even use your characters movement to reliably bait them it was horrible to play against and to spectate.
It would be kinda cool to cover run away characters. Not actual zoners, but characters like Valentine from skugs and Jiggly puff who just try to frustrate the opponent into doing something dumb
That Storm from MvC2 takes it
@@hotzauhse I can even hear Storm flying away
I think a cool character archetype you didn’t mention was the special meter character. Characters that have their own special meter along with the meter(s) that everybody else has like Johnny Cage in MK1 or Phoenix Wright in UMvC3. They tend to usually be pretty interesting characters so that’s why I like them.
I was also thinking about item characters like Cody and Vega in SF4 but I don’t know if there’s any other games that have the same thing.
I know you don’t really play platform fighters, but I’m still kinda sad you didn’t even talk briefly about anyone from them. Like Rosalina was a notoriously good puppet fighter in Smash 4. Or Sylvanos in Rivals was such a good zoner that they eventually had to completely rework a few of his normals with new animations.
characters that work on reversals could almost be a type. Like Eagle / Geese Howard / Wang Jin Rey. etc.
And characters like Nina from Dead or alive take 'grappling' to a whole other level with OTG multi grapples.
Dnf dual doesn’t count lol
Best rushdown: cowboy from yomi hustle
Best grappler: robot from yomi hustle
Best bruiser: robot from yomi hustle
Best zoner: wizard from yomi hustle
Best puppet: wizard from yomi hustle
Best shoto: ninja from yomi hustle
I love yomi hustle
I feel like Smash's "heavies" category really makes some strong "bruisers" as well. For instance, Bowser in Smash Ultimate. Really fast, lots of armor (even different types of armor). Can take some hits, has a lot of range and is doing big damage, but isn't completely focused on grabs (though his grabs are strong).
Smash archetypes are a whole other ballgame because of the mechanics.
@@TakaComics I definitely get that. I do feel that some of the basics still apply though when it comes to archetypes. Smash still has categories like rush down, grapplers etc. Smash still plays the RPS of grab/attack/block.
The mechanics are a little more different than the difference between air-dash games and SF for instance, but at it's core, it's a fighting game and a lot of the core concepts exist.
I was expecting some sort of Setplay archetype with of course Testament being the best one that comes to mind
Other archetypes I'd like to see:
Set-up, trap, stance
I think a better word for "set-up" is Install, because trap characters have to "set-up" their hazards or debuffs, but they do not Install them
Install, Trap, Stance
Comeback characters are also maybe an archetype, but my main example is Lucky Chloe from Tekken 7, and Tekken archetypes are completely skewed variations of normal FG ones.
6:50 One fihgitng game character who's can build walls, and are a tough guy is Texas from Them's Fighting Herds. I would recommend taking a look, btw nice work, cool video
Ik theres set-up characters, like yeah you can setup with most characters but specifically your gameplan is to setup.
There are characters thst unlock their moves throughout a match like Jamie in SF6 or thr guy with 7 swords in Samsho.
Joke characters are a given.
I would put ninjas as a subclass of rushdown... Bar earthquake
Disablers or characters that want to put effects on their enemy.
And i once heard someone say jac in mk11 was a "bulldog" archtype
I really did like this vid! I’d love more on this, with more obscure archetypes, like Pixie or Control
im suprised u went for top tiers of each archetype and not totally broken characters from each archetype, great video tho
Characters that level up throughout the match and Comeback characters
I will continue telling the world to check this game out, but if you wanna talk zoners, you should check out what is essentially "Zoners: The Game," Touhou Hisoutensoku. I hear it had a side tourney at Evo this year. There is one character that is basically a Shoto/Puppet/Rekka, one that is vaguely rushdown, and everyone else is a nutso zoner; in fact despite only being a 3-button fighter, two of those buttons are dedicated to ranged attacks and motion-input specials.
Only thing that really sucks is its a kusoge discord fighter from like 2010, so documentation is limited to a dedicated wiki and a small handful of youtube videos.
i think you should've given an honorable mention to accent core pot, his strike throw was crazy as anything could've been a tick throw with HFB and he also had crazy combos with APB and on top of that he had unblockable loops that he could get off of basically anything, including a 18 frame overhead that shared a startup animation with a low
i know a lot of these strengths arent the grab but thats why i said honorable mention
One of my favorite moments in fighting games is when I was facing a Bane in Injustice 2 and when he got knocked down I went for a neutral jump to call out a power grab and instead he quick stood up an anti air grabbed to me into the Hulk Smash full combo with interactables and screen transition.
The thing about fighter archetypes is that there are so many that are like, sub-versions of the main ones, it'd start to get crazy. "Pixie" and "the wall" are kind of good examples that at least stand out a bit from the various sub-archetypes. Pixies being all about super great movement, with the ability to control the pace of the game, but usually weak damage with low health.(dance around, get in fast, get out fast type of deal) Walls are just your mega defense play characters with strong turtle and punish game while usually having high health.
There are just so many sub-archetypes people list out there that the line starts to get fuzzy, as lots of characters can be played AS a few types, without actually being it.
far as other archetypes go, i don't personally count charge characters as their own, simply because every charge character fits a different archetype, like guile being a zoner and balrog being a bully, speaking of which bullies like urien would be fun to see you pick a number one for
great clips to illustrate your points. thanks for the upload!
Alice from Asura Buster: Eternal Warriors is an insane puppet character, she can control skeleton during hitstun, and he does unscaled damage in combos.
Look up footage of AhiruWho using Alice
Honestly, I agree with the whole list as a whole. I would only add the mention of V-Akuma from A3. He is downright unfair. lol
Yang from the BBTAG is a pretty good bruiser. A lot of armour and really high damage.
Plus the mental damage from the install theme jumpscare
I have to mention Kabal in mk9, not only did he have one of the best zonings in the game, but also the best rushdown too, being full of block strings and cancels that would keep him safe most of the time.
True but the real broken zoners were in the Injustice games.
I always defined a Bruiser/Brawler as a character with strong normals and pressure from plus frames that make your opponent scared to press a button because a wrong guess means almost your whole life bar. (Slayer,Marisa,Azrael,Etc.)
Me personally, I always defined it as "Big-body with large and slow normals that does a lot of damage"
There are also some other semi-consistent traits among them(typically poor defense, minimal projectiles armor) but that's the basic minimum.
In my impression, Zero from UMVC3 is the GOAT of rushdowns!
I love that you gave so many series a bit of love here.
"Composite characters", as I've been calling them, are a favorite theme I enjoy playing. Characters who are specifically designed to be "a little bit of everyone". Street Fighter's "Seth" is probably a better known example. Soul Calibur's "Edge Master" is such a character, but doesn't work for comparison. "Necrid" better falls into this archetype, sad that he got dropped. Skullgirls "Double" is another good one. Dragon Ball has multiple characters in this archetype, but whether it is emphasized in gameplay varies. Kirby almost counts, but Copy is only prevalent in casual play.
for me, King (Tekken) is the personification of a grappler. Besides being a wrestler, he has an OBSCENE number of grappling moves
For Tekken, you've got King and Nina as grapplers; Jack and Kuma as bruisers, and Ogre as "shoto" - probably one of the strongest shoto style characters ever.
I'm surprised Goro Daimon made it on this list. Honourable mention will be Orochi Yachiro for KoF grapplers
I wore my "Folks" t-shirt to my local game store's Magic prerelease. I had a long-sleeve tee underneath because it was chilly outside.
Akuma puts the CANNON in Glass Cannon.
I'm thinking of Carl and Daimon too.
I like how you can just combo into command grab in KoF.
"grapplers are weak" z broly: *laughs in unreactable command grab*
I remember Darun from Street Fighter EX 2 being considered super strong and it might have been in 3 as well. Pretty sure he is a grappler, but he gets big grab combos.
I'd love to see you break down each archetype and it's strongest characters in more videos.
Setplay/setup characters might be a niche part of zoners/puppet characters, but still worth talking about imo: Venom from GG, Nappa from DBFZ, Frank West from UMvC3 or even A.K.I. From SF6 I'd consider being setplay.
Its C-Roa from Melty, no contest
Solid list. I assume you wanted game variety since I think Cable would have also been a fantastic rep for zoners. Goro is a great, if lesser known, pick.
fantastic video, hoping to see a long-winded analysis of characters you could only put in the '???' category
Carl Clover is literally good luck blocking this. The dude is so broken, no one ever mentions in the FGC either.
Carl players tried to downplay him back in the day and no one was having it 😂
In terms of rushdowns, I feel like Pet Shop in HFTF deserves a mention. In many ways, he actually outshines Magneto (insane aerial mobility as a bird, a "run" that can go fullscreen before some characters can finish their dash, insane block pressure thanks to his ability to charge and release projectiles independent of his other actions, and is able to convert into a ToD off of literally ANY move). His only real weakness is his tiny health pool, but his tiny hurtbox and mobility, as well as his pressure and above-average zoning and trapping capabilities on top of his already insane rushdown make it impossible for most characters to touch him. As a result, he's pretty much universally banned from ranked fightcade and tournaments.
When the bird inevitability touches you, the only thing that you can so is pray for them to drop the combo. The biggest reason why Pet Shop's blockstrings ans combos are so oppressive is because of his icicles. After holding down A, B, or C for about a second, an icicle appears on the ceiling in front of Pet Shop, with the distance determined by the button held but never going past the corner. Starting a combo with d.C, holding it, and continuing the combo with A will set up an icicle, and letting go will drop it, allowing Pet Shop to land another C or d.C. You can also start with d.A, and simply hold B or C before you can buffer the next move. It's possible to charge up to 3 icicles at once by holding A, B, and C, while simultaneously attacking with S instead. Although you can't loop an infinite more than 3 times in most legal settings, it's not necessary, as Pet Shop can instead extend with moves like 3C or 2S. 2S is specifically useful, as is not only does a good deal of damage, but also combos into every one of Pet Shop's supers. 236AA is generally used, as it only consumes one level of meter and infinitely loops into itself, but you can also follow up with 214AA or his Raging Demon (yes, the bird has a Raging Demon).
Being able to confirm into a ToD off of any stray hit (in tandem with Icicle) already makes Pet Shop a menace, but combining that with his perfectly safe pressure (icicles are also overheads, so proper usage results in unblockable setups), phenomonal mobility, anti-zoning tools (able to hit 2S and icicles anywhere on screen, and hitting someone in HFTF negates their projectiles) and low skill floor make him both the ideal rushdown character and easy to play. I can understand not knowing of him, since HFTF is a niche game with a small competitive scene, but its certain that Pet Shop still outclasses most of, if not all, rushdown characters in traditional fighters.
If you where to do a second part I think a good few categories would be
Joke characters
Trap/setup characters
powerup/install characters (I.e Jamie, Ultimate gohan)
Punish characters (characters who are usually defensive but have massive strong moves that do a lot of damage)
You can do more niche ones too like Item play characters, switch in characters, and many more.