4 Complex Bible "Contradictions" in David’s Census of Israel
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2021
- Was it God or Satan who incited David to take the census?
How many troops were counted? 2 Sam and 1 Chron have different numbers.
The book of James says God doesn't tempt anyone, how can that be reconciled with him inciting David?
Why are Israel and Judah talked about as different groups before the kingdom split into those groups?
There’s a typo in the video. It should say 2 Sam 24, not 2 Sam 28.
This is just one segment of a long interview I did for the moderators of the r/Bible subreddit. They asked their subreddit to send me a bunch of questions and I spent a lot of time preparing so that I would be able to offer the best answers I could. I'll be posting these answers as individual videos so keep an eye out for the rest in the set.
Here's a playlist where I will add them as they come out. • Mike Winger Reddit Int...
My website BibleThinker.org
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Sorry for the typo! The passages in question are 1 Chron 21 and 2 Sam 24.
Brother, I love your teaching. Its helped me get deeper meaning and appreciation from the Bible. That being said, there is one topic that I haven't discovered whether you've covered or not, and that's annihilationism.
Another possibility is that those in second Samuel where men who where able to go into battle by law, and those 30 thousand found in second Chronicals are men who are of age, but not eligible.
In Hebrew thought whet God allows something its the same as He doing it himself bc nothing's happens apart from God allowing it. So Mike my brother I believe you're right. Dr Heiser has a great take on it to.
I have a question about John the baptist …………john the baptist being “ the witness “, greatest among man born out of a woman” according to jesus himself..…and in John 1:32 “ Then John gave this testimony: “I SAW the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
33 “And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water TOLD ME, ‘The man on whom YOU SEE THE SPIRIT come down and remain IS THE ONE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. 34 “ I HAVE SEEN AND I TESTIFY THAT THIS IS GOD’S CHOSEN ONE.”……….
But…..,after this, when john the baptist is in prison, john the baptist SENDS messengers to jesus to ask him if he ( jesus ) is the one or that they should wait for someone else……..Luke 7:18 “Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. 19 And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “ARE YOU THE COMING ONE, OR DO WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER? ” 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ”……..??!!! Why did John this…….?? Very confusing!!!
@@madinahcolakoglu9200 The Jews expected a conquering Messiah who would take out their enemies (specifically the Romans). The Jews didn't expect a Messiah like Jesus. John was suffering in prison for what he believed in. One of the hardest things for us as believers to come to accept is God's timing. I'm sure John was starting to have doubts. And that's ok. We all do at some point (or multiple points) in our walk in faith. John's faith was shaken due to Jesus not being what the Jews (and probably himself) expected the Messiah to be. Hence why John asked if they should expect another. At least, this is what I think.
I love how they're in order according to beard length. 😂
Hahaha!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
And the glasses sizing as well, haha.
🤣🤣
And their shirts match their backgrounds, in order from light to dark.
I used to be worried about contradictions in the past, but I’ve come to look past them in recent times and it has brought me so much more joy for the word of God.
The word of God does not need protecting. It stands on its own. I read the Bible because I want to get closer to God, not because I want to distance myself from Him. Not because I want to find reasons to doubt him.
The Bible is a gift from God. Let us not bicker and argue about the details. Let us rejoice in the truth it reveals.
Love the Lord, praise the Lord. The Lord is one.
Amen. When I first gave my life to Jesus, I was on fire. For some reason, I went about showing the truth of the Bible by investigating every other religion I could and showing how they were wrong. I didn't need to do that. The Bible truly stands on its own. On a side note, I found the love I had flowing through me turn to frustration at my loved ones whenever I was looking into paganism.
@@joshrichards9121 Amen.
This should be the attitude, I also used to be worried, but now I feel the same like you and have started looking past them.
Are you admitting that there are contradictions?
Yes. Lets not worry about the details. Nobody is perfect!
Great insight yet again Mike. I particularly appreciate your differentiating " men who drew the sword" vs "valiant men who drew the sword" bit. As a military man myself, let me offer some info that would seem to corroborate this view. When numbering enemy troops, we would normally address them as FAM (fighting aged male) vs a tier. FAM are generally your average farmer by day/ insurgent by night that pick up arms and shoot randomly at targets of opportunity; they are rarely lethal and easily dealt with. Vs say in my experience a tier 1 enemy group (say Chechens for example) who are trained fighters with varing degrees of competency (hence tier 1, 2, 3, etc). We would view them and count them differently... Hope this makes sense?
Great explaination, Simon Gauvin-thanks!
This was one of the first apparent issues I came across that I had difficulty with! This is definitely the most thorough explanation I've heard on these passages in one spot. Great question and excellent research, Mike!
Pay no attention to those pesky contradictions. Just believe.
@@JamesRichardWiley ?
How about this:
Why the difference in the numbers? To find the answer to this puzzle, one has to pay very close attention to the wording in the two accounts and in the rules for conducting the Census.
Exodus 30:11-16 says:
11 Then Yehovah said to Moses: 12 “Whenever you take a census and count the sons of Israel, each one must give a ransom for his life to Yehovah at the time of the census. This is *so that no plague* may be brought upon them when they are registered. 13 This is what all those who are *registered [literally passed over]* will give: *a half shekel* by the standard shekel of the holy place. Twenty geʹrahs equal a shekel. A half shekel is the contribution to Yehovah. 14 *Everyone registered who is 20 years old and up will give Yehovah’s contribution.* 15 The rich should not give more and the poor should not give less than the half shekel as a contribution to Yehovah to make atonement for your lives. 16 You are to take the silver money of the atonement from the Israelites and *give it in behalf of the service of the tent of meeting*, that it may serve as a remembrance before Yehovah for the Israelites, to make atonement for your lives
Specifically This Means In Practice:
•Only Everyone Over 20 Is Counted
•A Half Shekel per person, or 1 Shekel to two persons is to be collected
•Money is to be given in behalf of the Tabernacle
•A Plague (same word as used at Exodus 12:13 for the Passover plague) will come upon those who don't pay the fee. Paying the fee will serve a similar purpose to the sprinkling of the blood on the doorposts during that plague (Exodus 12:13)
There lies in here no provision for numbering those under the age of 20. True, the Levites under 20 were numbered twice in the wilderness (Numbers 3:15, 26:62) but only in the first instance were any Shekels taken, and only those in excess of the firstborn of the twelve tribes Israel that were numbered (Numbers 3:40-51) at a value of five shekels per extra person, this being different to the standard census value. The Levites were registered separately from the Israelites and therefore exempt from the standard counting procedures of Exodus 30 (Numbers 1:47-50)
Now in the first Census, the numbering of the people in the twelve tribes over 20 was 603,550 (Exodus 38:26, Numbers 1:45). Of those under 20, only the firstborns were numbered as a special case (see above). We know that the rest of Israel under 20 were not counted because of the number of shekels gathered. Exodus 38:26 says:
"And the silver of the ones registered of the assembly was *100 talents* and *1,775 shekels* by the standard shekel of the holy place."
There are 3,000 Shekels in a talent. 3,000x100=300,000 Shekels. 300,000+1,775= 301,775 Shekels total. At 1 shekel for every two persons this confirms that this cost covered 603,550 persons and therefore confirms there were no under 20s included within the Exodus 30 census law.
But why was numbering the under 20s not included? Because the under 20s were Israel's "offspring", and at Genesis 15:5 it says:
"He now brought him outside and said: “Look up, please, to the heavens and *count the stars, if you are able* to do so.” Then he said to him: *“So your offspring will become.”*
What does this mean? Well in Genesis 16:10 this same promise was also given to Hagar, but in different words:
"Then Yehovah’s angel said: “I will greatly *multiply* your *offspring* , so that they will be *too numerous to count.”*
Abraham's offspring (both through Ishmael and Isaac) were promised to be so numerous, that you would not be able to count them. But what did David try to do?
1 Chronicles 27:23,24 reflects back on the ultimate outcome of David's census when it says
"David *did not count* those *20 years of age and under* , because Yehovah had promised to make Israel as many as the stars of the heavens. 24 Joʹab the son of Ze·ruʹiah had started to take the count [of those under 20], but he did not finish; and God’s anger came against Israel because of this, and the number was not entered into the *account of the history of the times of King David."*
Square brackets have been added. So now we know why Joab was annoyed with David. David, like all kings of his time, was recording an account of his history and times, and as part of that, he was boasting of his achievements and so he wanted to take stock of ALL Israel, including those *under* 20 (because he was incited to do so). Joab was annoyed with this because Yehovah had promised to make the offspring of Israel as numerous as the stars of heavens, so numerous that they *could not be counted* , and here David was attempting to count them. Therefore Joab began to take the count, but stopped when he reached Benjamin (the last of the twelve) because he was about to find out something that he thought ought not be known. Now the source of information for "Chronicles" and "Kings" were these accounts of the history of the times of king [insert name] (2 Kings 1:18, 8:23, 10:34, 12:19, 13:8,12, 14:15,18,28, 15:6,11,15,21,26,31,36, 16:19, 20:20, 21:17, 25, 23:28, 24:5, 2 Chronicles 9:29, 13:22, 20:34, 25:26, 26:22, 27:7, 28:26, 32:32, 33:18, 35:26, 36:8 I could list more but that's enough to make the point). This account of the history of the times of David then, contained the number of those counted, but *excluded* the number of those under 20 that Joab had begun to count. This is the number presented to us in 1 Chronicles 21. Whereas 2 Samuel 24, records the total number *including* those under 20.
Therefore 2 Samuel 24:9:
•Israel (excluding Judah) 800,000
•Judah 500,000
•Totalling ALL Israel at 1,300,000
1 Chronicles 21:5:
•ALL Israel (Including Judah) at 1,100,000
•Judah 470,000
•Israel apart from Judah would be 630,000
1,300,000 minus 1,100,000=200,000 Under twenty.
David was trying to inflate the numbers for the record to make himself look better. Maybe he reasoned this was fine since he himself was under 20 when he fought Goliath (1 Samuel 17:33). While he will have gathered the half shekel for those twenty and over, he would not have gathered any for those aged under 20 (because there was no provision for it in the law). However this still brought plague upon the people, since those 200,000 had still been counted. Therefore the 70,000 who fell would have been among the 200,000 under 20's. After the first wave of the Angels striking the people down (2 Samuel 24:17), there would have been 130,000 of this 200,000 remaining.
200,000 minus 70,000=130,000
During this first wave, David was anguished and wished for the calamity to come against himself (2 Samuel 24:17, 1 Chronicles 21:17), therefore the Angel was brought against Jerusalem in line with David's request. Just as with Abraham sacrificing Isaac hundreds of years prior though, this calamity against Jerusalem was stopped at the last minute. Another solution instead was presented to balance the books. Yehovah knew that David was too afraid to make his way to the tabernacle to consult him (where he could have made a contribution as required-1 Chronicles 21:29,30, Exodus 30:16), so instead a new closer site was chosen for a contribution. The Angel was waiting above Ornan Arunah's threshing floor, and command was given to Gad, to tell David to set up an altar there, an act which would require a cost, this specific site being chosen because the cost to purchase would cover the census cost of the remaining 130,000 under twenties. How so?
•1 Chronicles 21:25 tells us that David, for the site paid *600 shekels* weight in Gold.
•2 Samuel 24:24 tells us that he paid *50 shekels* weight in silver for the cattle for the burnt offerings.
This totals 650 shekels in value. Under the Census procedures of Exodus 30, at half a shekel per person (or 2 persons per shekel), this value would cover (650 multiplied by 2 equalling) 1,300 persons aged 20 and over.
•650 Shekels divided by 0.5 Shekel Per Person (Exodus 30)= 1,300 Persons Value
This is 100x short of the 130,000 alive after the first day of the plague. However, remember that these 130,000 people are aged *under* twenty, representing Israel's "offspring". At the start of the chapters, 1 Chronicles 21:3 and 2 Samuel 24:3 Joab said before David's disastrous actions:
"May Yehovah *Multiply the people 100 times,* and may the eyes of my lord the king see it".
By multiplying the people, Joab is talking about the people having offspring. He is therefore saying here in effect, "May 1 person aged 20 and over= 100 people under 20", or may their offspring multiply them by 100.
Subsequently, this means in the outcome of the story:
•If Each person aged 20 and over= a half shekel per person, then
•100 persons under 20, or the "offspring"= a half shekel per hundred persons.
1,300 x 100= 130,000
So, the 650 shekels that David paid toward the future temple site (worth 1,300 people 20 and over) covered the cost of the lives of the remaining 130,000 *under* twenties who would otherwise have died in the following two days of the Passover type plague.
This is why only after David had done this and offered up sacrifices, 2 Samuel 24:25 says:
25 And David built an altar there to Yehovah and offered up burnt sacrifices and communion sacrifices. Yehovah then responded to the entreaty for the land, and *the scourge against Israel was halted.*
Finally, as 1 Chronicles 27 again says, David removed the 200,000 under twenties from the count in his account and only counted those aged 20 and over
"because Yehovah had promised to make Israel as many of the stars of the heavens".
So to answer the question, *"Why the discrepancy?"*
•1.3 million is the number of all Israel _including_ the under twenties
•1.1 million is the number of all Israel _excluding_ the under twenties.
Two different Aspects= Perspective.
This is why you do the Maths people.
@@isaacmarshmallow8751 Kowalski analysis moment
@@Nov_Net All evidence indicates... I drank too much red bull 🥴
Been binge watching your videos and I think I found my new favorite TH-cam channel! 🤍
I Think Chuck Missler said something along the lines of if you come across an apparent contradiction rejoice & dig into it and you will find a hidden gem a pearl of wisdom is there!
This was very interesting. No, not because of the contradictions, but rather because of how they were resolved or how potential resolutions were arrived at. I picked up some good Bible study tips. Thank you.
This was the lesson at our Sunday School yesterday.
@@Life-ph5er
Sorry for you.
But not everybody will be saved.
@@Life-ph5er 16:05 to 16:35
Nice
16:33 The idea of Paul running in and yelling “The Census numbers were all accurate, guys!!!” killed me 😂😂
Wow. How great your reward is in Heaven Mike. Thank you for letting GOD use you to defend His word against the lies of satan. You cleared it very well and accurately and I know it is HIM who puts these answers in your tongue. Be blessed along with your partners and also the person who asked the questions.
just a suggestion, I think you should consider producing 5-10min videos, even just clips from these discussions. Most of the youtube channels with Bible guys like you guys always have long videos and it can be a lot to commit to. thanks for the content
Sometimes you just have to be willing to do the deep dive. These are complex subjects. A lot of Bible/theological questions can't be sufficiently addressed in just a few minutes.
I always had a problem with this and I never saw other Christians talk about it for years until now.
Hey man love your channel dude!
I love this. Such clear biblical teaching. THANKS!
Awesome-thanks!
This is so good! Thanks Mike
There's a serious misunderstanding here because of the failure of the translators to realize that "satan" is simply a Hebrew word that means "adversary." Even in places where it is referring to a supernatural being, like in Job, it still should be "adversary", because "satan" is a function, not a proper name).
Now several times in Kings, an "adversary" (hebrew "satan") rises up against King Solomon, and the name is given of a human, and there the translators rightly translate (rather than transliterate) to "adversary." (1 Kings 11:14, 11:23,11:25). Here, in 1 Chronicles 21:1 they also should have translated to "adversary." (There is no spiritual "satan" intended in this passage.) What's happening, is that a HUMAN adversary is coming against Israel with some sort of army, and because of the advance against Israel, God cited David to take a census. There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking a census in itself.
The problem was that David did not follow Exodus 30:11~12:
11 Yahweh also spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “When you take a census of the sons of Israel to number them, then every man of them shall give a ransom for his soul to Yahweh, when you number them, so that there will be no plague among them when you number them. "
The judgment God brought against the nation was a plague. Had he correctly taken the ransom when taking the census, the plague would not have befallen him. Josephus the Judean (who wrote in 90AD) also understood that the fault was failure to take the ransom, and had he done so, the plague would not have happened.
Josephus: Antiquities 7:318 "Now King David was desirous to know how many ten thousands there were of the people, but forgot the commands of Moses, who told them beforehand, that if the multitude were numbered, they should pay half a shekel to God for every head. Accordingly, the king commanded Joab, the captain of his host, to go and number the whole multitude."
So in summary, the situation of a human adversary (not satan) as well as God himself incited David to take the census - which was not a sinful action. Because David did not take the ransom as prescribed in Exodus, the plague was allowed to come upon them. That was the sin.
The translators realized this perfectly well and it's typically "the adversary" not just "adversary". There is an aspect of tradition that's applied to translating that has this effect on many other words such as "angel" rather than "messenger", "heaven" rather than "sky". The word "seraphim" is just the word "serpents" and is translated that way in other parts of the Bible. I'm not sure of what wisdom there is in maintaining this tradition but it's not some kind of plan to subvert your theology. Whether _the adversary_ is a title or a proper name, you can still get the same theology out of it.
Thanks for the tip on the census.
(Tho I disagree with your zeal about 'satan'/adversary. God was conversing with a person in Job 1, so...)
The grammar in the 1 Chronicles “satan” matches the grammar of Numbers 22:22. Yahweh’s anger at Balaam builds to him taking the role of the adversary (a satan not The Satan) of Balaam’s evil progress thus the Angel of YHWH opposes his donkey in the middle of the road. The need to wipe out a perceived discrepancy or whether Chronicles and Samuel present satan as a spiritual or mortal adversary goes away if you read this as saying that Yahweh and angel of Yahweh are both angry and adversarial to wayward-bride Israel (not inciting David to do evil that they later punish him for). Like Yahweh used Pharaoh to discipline Israel through the Exodus, in this account he’s using David (a champion even) standing as an adversary to the evil that Israel was still doing by continued involvement with Baal worship and self-reliance after the herem on the Rephaim offspring. David is therefore portrayed as both a man swayed by his sinful desires who repents AND as a strong Christological foreshadowing when he sacrifices and worships Yahweh alone, ending the Angel of Yahweh’s wrath, like they mentioned in the video. I highly recommend reading Dr. Mike Heiser if you want more info on this view.
Man to have that knowledge is amazing. Truly amazing. God may you help all of us with the discernment of your word. Amen
Very good. Wisdom, insight, and understanding.
Mike, you really have a special anointing from the Lord!!
Thank you all for this study
Love these discussions. Very informative.
I have a question about John the baptist …………john the baptist being “ the witness “, greatest among man born out of a woman” according to jesus himself..…and in John 1:32 “ Then John gave this testimony: “I SAW the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
33 “And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water TOLD ME, ‘The man on whom YOU SEE THE SPIRIT come down and remain IS THE ONE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. 34 “ I HAVE SEEN AND I TESTIFY THAT THIS IS GOD’S CHOSEN ONE.”……….
But…..,after this, when john the baptist is in prison, john the baptist SENDS messengers to jesus to ask him if he ( jesus ) is the one or that they should wait for someone else……..Luke 7:18 “Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. 19 And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “ARE YOU THE COMING ONE, OR DO WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER? ” 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ”……..??!!! Why did John this…….?? Very confusing!!!
Thank you for your knowledgeable insights and explanations.
God bless
Thank you sooooo much for this video !! I also believe that the Bible doesn’t contradict itself; however, when I came across these passages again the other day, I struggled a lot and I had the exact (1st 3) questions the user had !! And it was beginning to shake me a bit 😅 This video has clarified so much for me, and has helped me tremendously. This video was quite literally my prayers and crying out to God answered. Thank you so much !!!
With brotherly reverence
He was counting wealth. Which leads to the idea of not needing God. Bad. Shalom
I think you know there are contradictions just by the fact you “ struggle “ with them.
I think the difference is you have explanations that help you feel comfortable about the contradictions.
God will test you (place you in a situation to test how you will respond to the situation) but he'll never tempt you (encourage you to sin)
This is a well-summarized comment. Thank you!
Thx for these amazing explanations!!
Amazing video! Great job explaining how there was different viewpoints/biases and experiences involved, and that it's more about the overall story than the minute details, even though I believe also in Biblical inerrancy. Where there seems to be a controversial issue or passage, I have learnt to trust that God himself knows all the proper details, and that we need to walk by faith and not by sight, trusting that knowing that our God will get us through and never leave us. Love you guys man great job! Hope to chat sometime soon, I would love to meet you sometime Mike, maybe do some ministry together. I run an online ministry, called Compelled Discipleship and when I found your channel, you have been a huge inspiration. God bless you, your channel and your ministry and family in Jesus precious name. 🙏 :)
Thank you for breaking this down... I was confused
Wow, bro my family and friends just love you and how you faithfully serve God in your calling. Your doctrine is sound understanding deep a theologian in deed. Your ministry is such a blessing and so edifying for all of us. You are a teacher and virtual pastor to more people than you will ever know.
Even though you read the Bible, and you hear someone preach on this subject, I felt edify with this teaching or with this talk, thank you.
I think you guys did a great job on this one! One thing I would like to add about the Satan/God tempting question: In several places in the OT it is explained to us that God allowed spiritual beings to work with him to decide what should be done. The divine council. For example, 1 Kings 22:20-22. We also have the situation in Job where Satan makes a plan with God about how to treat Job and then God allows Satan to actually carry out the plan.
So it could be the case that this is a similar situation. The plan of action is somehow confirmed by the divine council and God but it is Satan who is actually getting his hands dirty.
Which makes god look terrible tbh lol.
my first thought was job as well... you explained this very eloquently, thank you
Excellent video
Thank u gentlemen brothers for thèse questions n replies. Thank u Pastor Mike for your research n explanations. God bless your trio. Love in Christ, 🤗 your french campus
This totally resolved this with me.I would love this an explanation of the differences in the lineages of Jesus in the gospels of Mathew and Luke.
I thought one was Joseph's line and the other was Mary's line
Yes it assumed to be Mary’s lineage. Luke also has the most of Mary’s first hand account in it. So it makes sense that it would be her lineage.
Google for the prophecy of Jeremiah against king Jeconiah to see a sweet tie-in with the Luke 3 genealogy.
Why the difference in the numbers? To find the answer to this puzzle, one has to pay very close attention to the wording in the two accounts and in the rules for conducting the Census.
Exodus 30:11-16 says:
11 Then Yehovah said to Moses: 12 “Whenever you take a census and count the sons of Israel, each one must give a ransom for his life to Yehovah at the time of the census. This is *so that no plague* may be brought upon them when they are registered. 13 This is what all those who are *registered [literally passed over]* will give: *a half shekel* by the standard shekel of the holy place. Twenty geʹrahs equal a shekel. A half shekel is the contribution to Yehovah. 14 *Everyone registered who is 20 years old and up will give Yehovah’s contribution.* 15 The rich should not give more and the poor should not give less than the half shekel as a contribution to Yehovah to make atonement for your lives. 16 You are to take the silver money of the atonement from the Israelites and *give it in behalf of the service of the tent of meeting*, that it may serve as a remembrance before Yehovah for the Israelites, to make atonement for your lives
Specifically This Means In Practice:
•Only Everyone Over 20 Is Counted
•A Half Shekel per person, or 1 Shekel to two persons is to be collected
•Money is to be given in behalf of the Tabernacle
•A Plague (same word as used at Exodus 12:13 for the Passover plague) will come upon those who don't pay the fee. Paying the fee will serve a similar purpose to the sprinkling of the blood on the doorposts during that plague (Exodus 12:13)
There lies in here no provision for numbering those under the age of 20. True, the Levites under 20 were numbered twice in the wilderness (Numbers 3:15, 26:62) but only in the first instance were any Shekels taken, and only those in excess of the firstborn of the twelve tribes Israel that were numbered (Numbers 3:40-51) at a value of five shekels per extra person, this being different to the standard census value. The Levites were registered separately from the Israelites and therefore exempt from the standard counting procedures of Exodus 30 (Numbers 1:47-50)
Now in the first Census, the numbering of the people in the twelve tribes over 20 was 603,550 (Exodus 38:26, Numbers 1:45). Of those under 20, only the firstborns were numbered as a special case (see above). We know that the rest of Israel under 20 were not counted because of the number of shekels gathered. Exodus 38:26 says:
"And the silver of the ones registered of the assembly was *100 talents* and *1,775 shekels* by the standard shekel of the holy place."
There are 3,000 Shekels in a talent. 3,000x100=300,000 Shekels. 300,000+1,775= 301,775 Shekels total. At 1 shekel for every two persons this confirms that this cost covered 603,550 persons and therefore confirms there were no under 20s included within the Exodus 30 census law.
But why was numbering the under 20s not included? Because the under 20s were Israel's "offspring", and at Genesis 15:5 it says:
"He now brought him outside and said: “Look up, please, to the heavens and *count the stars, if you are able* to do so.” Then he said to him: *“So your offspring will become.”*
What does this mean? Well in Genesis 16:10 this same promise was also given to Hagar, but in different words:
"Then Yehovah’s angel said: “I will greatly *multiply* your *offspring* , so that they will be *too numerous to count.”*
Abraham's offspring (both through Ishmael and Isaac) were promised to be so numerous, that you would not be able to count them. But what did David try to do?
1 Chronicles 27:23,24 reflects back on the ultimate outcome of David's census when it says
"David *did not count* those *20 years of age and under* , because Yehovah had promised to make Israel as many as the stars of the heavens. 24 Joʹab the son of Ze·ruʹiah had started to take the count [of those under 20], but he did not finish; and God’s anger came against Israel because of this, and the number was not entered into the *account of the history of the times of King David."*
Square brackets have been added. So now we know why Joab was annoyed with David. David, like all kings of his time, was recording an account of his history and times, and as part of that, he was boasting of his achievements and so he wanted to take stock of ALL Israel, including those *under* 20 (because he was incited to do so). Joab was annoyed with this because Yehovah had promised to make the offspring of Israel as numerous as the stars of heavens, so numerous that they *could not be counted* , and here David was attempting to count them. Therefore Joab began to take the count, but stopped when he reached Benjamin (the last of the twelve) because he was about to find out something that he thought ought not be known. Now the source of information for "Chronicles" and "Kings" were these accounts of the history of the times of king [insert name] (2 Kings 1:18, 8:23, 10:34, 12:19, 13:8,12, 14:15,18,28, 15:6,11,15,21,26,31,36, 16:19, 20:20, 21:17, 25, 23:28, 24:5, 2 Chronicles 9:29, 13:22, 20:34, 25:26, 26:22, 27:7, 28:26, 32:32, 33:18, 35:26, 36:8 I could list more but that's enough to make the point). This account of the history of the times of David then, contained the number of those counted, but *excluded* the number of those under 20 that Joab had begun to count. This is the number presented to us in 1 Chronicles 21. Whereas 2 Samuel 24, records the total number *including* those under 20.
Therefore 2 Samuel 24:9:
•Israel (excluding Judah) 800,000
•Judah 500,000
•Totalling ALL Israel at 1,300,000
1 Chronicles 21:5:
•ALL Israel (Including Judah) at 1,100,000
•Judah 470,000
•Israel apart from Judah would be 630,000
1,300,000 minus 1,100,000=200,000 Under twenty.
David was trying to inflate the numbers for the record to make himself look better. Maybe he reasoned this was fine since he himself was under 20 when he fought Goliath (1 Samuel 17:33). While he will have gathered the half shekel for those twenty and over, he would not have gathered any for those aged under 20 (because there was no provision for it in the law). However this still brought plague upon the people, since those 200,000 had still been counted. Therefore the 70,000 who fell would have been among the 200,000 under 20's. After the first wave of the Angels striking the people down (2 Samuel 24:17), there would have been 130,000 of this 200,000 remaining.
200,000 minus 70,000=130,000
During this first wave, David was anguished and wished for the calamity to come against himself (2 Samuel 24:17, 1 Chronicles 21:17), therefore the Angel was brought against Jerusalem in line with David's request. Just as with Abraham sacrificing Isaac hundreds of years prior though, this calamity against Jerusalem was stopped at the last minute. Another solution instead was presented to balance the books. Yehovah knew that David was too afraid to make his way to the tabernacle to consult him (where he could have made a contribution as required-1 Chronicles 21:29,30, Exodus 30:16), so instead a new closer site was chosen for a contribution. The Angel was waiting above Ornan Arunah's threshing floor, and command was given to Gad, to tell David to set up an altar there, an act which would require a cost, this specific site being chosen because the cost to purchase would cover the census cost of the remaining 130,000 under twenties. How so?
•1 Chronicles 21:25 tells us that David, for the site paid *600 shekels* weight in Gold.
•2 Samuel 24:24 tells us that he paid *50 shekels* weight in silver for the cattle for the burnt offerings.
This totals 650 shekels in value. Under the Census procedures of Exodus 30, at half a shekel per person (or 2 persons per shekel), this value would cover (650 multiplied by 2 equalling) 1,300 persons aged 20 and over.
•650 Shekels divided by 0.5 Shekel Per Person (Exodus 30)= 1,300 Persons Value
This is 100x short of the 130,000 alive after the first day of the plague. However, remember that these 130,000 people are aged *under* twenty, representing Israel's "offspring". At the start of the chapters, 1 Chronicles 21:3 and 2 Samuel 24:3 Joab said before David's disastrous actions:
"May Yehovah *Multiply the people 100 times,* and may the eyes of my lord the king see it".
By multiplying the people, Joab is talking about the people having offspring. He is therefore saying here in effect, "May 1 person aged 20 and over= 100 people under 20", or may their offspring multiply them by 100.
Subsequently, this means in the outcome of the story:
•If Each person aged 20 and over= a half shekel per person, then
•100 persons under 20, or the "offspring"= a half shekel per hundred persons.
1,300 x 100= 130,000
So, the 650 shekels that David paid toward the future temple site (worth 1,300 people 20 and over) covered the cost of the lives of the remaining 130,000 *under* twenties who would otherwise have died in the following two days of the Passover type plague.
This is why only after David had done this and offered up sacrifices, 2 Samuel 24:25 says:
25 And David built an altar there to Yehovah and offered up burnt sacrifices and communion sacrifices. Yehovah then responded to the entreaty for the land, and *the scourge against Israel was halted.*
Finally, as 1 Chronicles 27 again says, David removed the 200,000 under twenties from the count in his account and only counted those aged 20 and over
"because Yehovah had promised to make Israel as many of the stars of the heavens".
So to answer the question, *"Why the discrepancy?"*
•1.3 million is the number of all Israel _including_ the under twenties
•1.1 million is the number of all Israel _excluding_ the under twenties.
Two different Aspects= Perspective.
This is why you do the Maths people.
This is the explanation
This is so good!
Hi Mike I’m starting to take Bible studies more seriously and I was wondering if you could tell me what Bible study tools you recommend what software‘s there’s so many different ones in I have no idea which one to pick
The last one was child’s play...but man I’ve always since I was a child wondered what exactly the differences are of the Jewish lands of Israel and Judea...might dig into it some time. This channel might be the place to go for that.
I read a book called reading scripture through western eyes which i recommend. it discusses how we read in our western culture into the Bible. One of the discussions in the book was in the idea of Truth. In the west we value something as true when it can be substantiated. In many eastern cultures Truth is valued in a more abstract manner. Understanding this helped me a lot. It's why so many passages use stories and figurative language to discuss truth, whereas in our culture we prefer eye-witness accounts and statistics.
So basically what you're saying from what I can tell is that truth doesn't have to actually been true, as long as it figuratively makes sense and is in some abstract way plausible. See that doesn't jive with me. I would never accept any other religion as true based on it's inherent plausibility, so why should I make exceptions for Christianity?
Mike, I have a serious question. I hope you are able to get back to me. I see you are able to do long-form Bible study content. I really want to do similar content on youtube or podcast but as of right now I can't teach without a full word-for-word manuscript. When I do Bible study with my pastor he has me write a manuscript about whatever verses we are studying and then we preach it to each other (I am practicing becoming a teacher/preacher). I've been born again for about 5 years now and ever since I became born again I have loved and had a desire for the Word and to teach it. As I said before, I want to expand and go to youtube or podcast but I just can't look at the camera and my manuscripts. I don't want to be looking at my manuscript every two seconds while on camera. So I'm curious when you make a video do you have a manuscript or notes next to you? Do you have any tips on my situation?
Thank you in advance!
Pastor Mike has a side channel teaching budding youtubers how to minister through the site... You can check there just in case.
contradictions they are when not taken in proper context... thank you for putting context :)
But if we where going to go with your so called “”context”” is to say that BOTH god and satan would HALF to be the exact same person moron 🤦♂️
So is god also satan 🙄
I have to say Mr Winger I like the your style - I'm from South Africa and though I've listened to a million sermons, I've never really read the Bible from end to end, and now recently, I started reading through the gospels in the KJV, and I've got a few humdinger questions on what's written in Matthew and Luke to start off with - I think I may surprise you with something out of the ordinary type of Bible verses and my associated questions
Hello from Australia. Mike may have already talked about your questions. Search on Mike's podcast app or his website and you will probably find it.
Can you make a video on some of your favorite books on the book shelf behind you??
Will you please make a video focusing on music? I really struggle with the content of the music that I enjoy and would appreciate any insight you may have to offer. Is it OK to enjoy the music but reject the underlying theme?
So David already had a pride in his heart for the armies he commanded, and God tested him by presenting the opportunity to have a census. God didn't put the sin in his heart, but brought it out so he could deal with it.
No exactly.
Job is an example of how God works when it comes to temptation and the things like what happened in this instance.
God allowed satan to go and incite David. Just like where it says that God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul, God didn't sent the spirit, He allowed the spirit to go and torment Saul (He allowed satan to sent a spirit to torment Saul after satan brought a charge against Saul) satan's goal was simply to torment Saul and probably to get him to make bad decisions as the king of Israel (as anyone who is tormented and is in a place of authority would do), but God's purpose was to set David up in Saul's palace.
The Hebrew God Yahweh is a fictional character invented by tribal ancestors long long ago
and passed on to future generations through spoken and written stories
@@JamesRichardWiley that's your opinion
I have a question about John the baptist …………john the baptist being “ the witness “, greatest among man born out of a woman” according to jesus himself..…and in John 1:32 “ Then John gave this testimony: “I SAW the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
33 “And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water TOLD ME, ‘The man on whom YOU SEE THE SPIRIT come down and remain IS THE ONE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. 34 “ I HAVE SEEN AND I TESTIFY THAT THIS IS GOD’S CHOSEN ONE.”……….
But…..,after this, when john the baptist is in prison, john the baptist SENDS messengers to jesus to ask him if he ( jesus ) is the one or that they should wait for someone else……..Luke 7:18 “Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. 19 And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “ARE YOU THE COMING ONE, OR DO WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER? ” 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ”……..??!!! Why did John this…….?? Very confusing!!!
@@madinahcolakoglu9200 yeah it is. It seems like he lost faith, just like Mary did. They expected a very different kind of Messiah. But Jesus sent him encouragement.
Hey Pastor Mike, I would love to get your take on something that has been bothering me for a while.
I come from a pretty charismatic Christian background where a lot of people believe stories of people who have been to heaven (or hell) and came back to tell about it. Personally, I always found those somewhat sketchy but I'm having a hard time finding a biblical basis to debunk/affirm them. Would really appreciate your help, God Bless 🙏
Didn’t Enoch and John get heaven/hell experiences
Those who reject Christ try to find EVERY contradiction they can to excuse it, no matter how small. When you are looking for an excuse, the bar is set pretty low.
And they pierced his hand and feet. Really? It seems like it says evildoers have surrounded me like a lion.
@@bennywolfe4357 what?
@@bennywolfe4357 fact!!👍🏼
I disagree. Those who accept Christ try to find EVERY mental gymnastic to make the bible inerrant.
@@Ejaezy Every instance I've seen has been the person wanting to be as uncharitable as possible in their reading, having reached their conclusion before really looking into the issue. Usually finding the "error" in some list on the internet. Let me clarify though, scripture is inerrant. Are there mistakes/edits in some translations of scripture? Sure. Can we use textual criticism, we can roll back these mistakes of men.
i love mikes videos, what disturbs me though is reading though the comments many people who tune in make, so many people are blind and confused and deceived.
Rejoice in the lord always
The similarities in text and the difference in numbers is very helpful in validating the text. If you have studied how manuscripts were created and passed down it is not too difficult to tell if someone is using the same source material. in this case the wording is nearly verbatim. No one can get that close to verbatim unless they had the same primary source. That being said, if they had the same primary source than they had the original numbers and changed the numbers on purpose. Since there is clearly no sinister motive present for changing the numbers it can be deduced that they changed them purposefully based on a desired effect on their audience. This should explain away clerical error and add support to your hypothesis on why the numbers differ
Would you make a video on your Biblical view on burials (cremation vs casket) please?
The book of Gad the seer has the account of David's sin of counting and it provides some interesting details.
You guys seem to semi-complain that the Bible is held to this much higher standard of accuracy today than in the past. But, the thing is when it's dogmatic that the Bible is an inerrant document written by God Himself through many different authors, the standard HAS to be under the greatest level of scrutiny and still hold up. God, the God of truth, who Christians dogmatically say that the Bible is the flawless, inerrant word of God must be accurate and consistent, or it hurts the Christian position. So, you can't complain that people are putting it up to scrutiny. No one does that with the Da Vinci code because no one says that book is from God Himself.
It's worth noting that Chronicals were written with a different purpose than Samuel/Kings. Chronicles were penned in the post-exilic era as a means to encourage the remnant and keep them focused on not repeating the errors of the past. With this in mind, it makes sense that the author (likely Ezra) included the numbers from the tribe of Benjamin to give the reader the overall picture. At that point in time, the fact that Joab did not count them was not relevant.
Pastor Mike, what is the best way to get questions to you? Something theological, but not these passages specifically.
He holds livestreams on most Fridays where people ask him questions in the livechat. He is actually holding one in about 30 minutes from the time of sending this. Just make sure you ask your question early into the stream because he only takes 20.
14:38 my boy looking like a bible accurate angle over here, but connection problems may not stop the gospel
15:36
About the numerical discrepancy...accepting the discrepancy seems easier to swallow than trying to explain it
Different terms were used. We don't pick up on it because our modern terms, in English, are usually formed by borrowing from other languages, often Greek.
i think for a non believer it is very knoledge is important
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. - Romans 8:28 (NIV) ... This verse answers this contradiction fully
Is there a link to the long form of this interview somewhere?
Not yet - perhaps after all of the short clips have been released he might release a full version, but as of right now, they're just being released as individual clips.
I think the first question has a better answer. Satan isn’t a name. It can be used to describe “the enemy” but it can also be used in regular conversation. It has multiple meanings. One meaning is “the accuser.” So in either case can “satan” genuinely be referring to just… God? Yeah.
Excellent post !
Yes, yes ha’satan is a title of the accuser of YHWH’s divine council. He can only act on YHWH’s will.
Later, Satan does evolve to an actual evil deity.
Hi,where can i see that the expression ''drew the sword" make reference to people who are generally over 20 years old?
There’s no contradictions anywhere found in the Bible just more information to make the events clearer.
Amen my brother! Well said!
What about in the gospels?
@@bennywolfe4357
Show me one contradiction
@@bennywolfe4357 It seems like John's gospel since it is written firsthand has more and clarifying information. Luke also investigated the things more certainly so he also had a more in depth view. Both Matthew and Mark contain certain information. These are accounts of the gospel obtained, aside from John's, from other people. They are simply recording what they were told and thought to be true and John looked like he was setting the record straight, especially making it clear that we could trust what he said because he was there. The one thing that stands out to me was Jesus praying and worrying in the garden and yet John said that Jesus made clear that He would not ask for the harm coming to Him not to come because that's what He was sent for. So a seemingly contradicting situation. But the others recorded their versions and John recorded his and he was the only one there but I don't remember it being mentioned that John was with Jesus when He was upset about Him going to the cross.
I have a question about John the baptist …………john the baptist being “ the witness “, greatest among man born out of a woman” according to jesus himself..…and in John 1:32 “ Then John gave this testimony: “I SAW the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
33 “And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water TOLD ME, ‘The man on whom YOU SEE THE SPIRIT come down and remain IS THE ONE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. 34 “ I HAVE SEEN AND I TESTIFY THAT THIS IS GOD’S CHOSEN ONE.”……….
But…..,after this, when john the baptist is in prison, john the baptist SENDS messengers to jesus to ask him if he ( jesus ) is the one or that they should wait for someone else……..Luke 7:18 “Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. 19 And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “ARE YOU THE COMING ONE, OR DO WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER? ” 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ”……..??!!! Why did John this…….?? Very confusing!!!
Mike, you should write a book on Bible "contradictions"! I would defnitely read it!
I have a question about John the baptist …………john the baptist being “ the witness “, greatest among man born out of a woman” according to jesus himself..…and in John 1:32 “ Then John gave this testimony: “I SAW the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
33 “And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water TOLD ME, ‘The man on whom YOU SEE THE SPIRIT come down and remain IS THE ONE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. 34 “ I HAVE SEEN AND I TESTIFY THAT THIS IS GOD’S CHOSEN ONE.”……….
But…..,after this, when john the baptist is in prison, john the baptist SENDS messengers to jesus to ask him if he ( jesus ) is the one or that they should wait for someone else……..Luke 7:18 “Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. 19 And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “ARE YOU THE COMING ONE, OR DO WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER? ” 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ”……..??!!! Why did John this…….?? Very confusing!!!
@@madinahcolakoglu9200 That is because John the Baptist thought Jesus would judge Israel and the world when He came and establish the Kingdom of God. Because that is what the prophecies about the Messiah said He would do. However, Jesus will do that in His second coming. The first coming of Jesus was unexpected because before judging the world, He saved many people from all nations through his atoning death. So, John the Baptist is confused because Jesus is doing miracles and preaching instead of bringing judgement. Thats why John doubts and asks Jesus if He is the Messiah. Jesus, very smartly, answers by answering that the blind see, the leppers are healed, etc. Which means that the Kingdom of God is being established on earth through Jesus' power. He is bringing Eden back to earth, which is what the Messiah was supposed to do. Jews did not expected the Messiah to come as a Servant and the as a King. They exepected the Messiah to come just 1 time and as a King in his Glory! Jesus came for to save as and He will come back in His glory soon to put an end to evil and injustice and to bring the FULL Kingdom of God.
@@martinecheverria5968 nope……incorrect…! Why…because John is saying that GOD told him that jesus is the chosen one……!! So he was FULLY aware of this!!
Read 33 and 34 again….
@@madinahcolakoglu9200 yesz but He doubted. Like Gideon!
@@madinahcolakoglu9200 even Abraham doubted God's word and had a child with another woman
18:24 - its curious to me that everyone has a little laugh here.. and i instinctly laughed. And i can tell you that i know in my heart none of us are laughing out of malice or disrespect when we do so but why in general is that our universal response? Is the spirit in us delighted to have someone curious? Do we see ourselves in that person, as once we had many questions? Idk. Just struck me. I think it's precious. ❤
The writer of Chronicles recommends historical scriptures for us to read which is most likely where he got his information.
“Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer, with all his reign and his might, and the times that went over him, and over Israel, and over all the kingdoms of the countries.” 1 Chronicles 29:29-30
In the book of Gad the Seer, this event is recorded and gives you your answer.
1. And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel 2. and He moved Satan against David, saying: “Go, number Israel and Judah,” to bring them the evil He spoke through Samuel the seer.
Hope this helps 🙏
The word of God tends to lead you to the %99 and leaves the last bit for youth choose in faith.
Hi Mike, love your comments here with one exception. At the 5:50 marker, you say "God is in control but not necessarily controlling everything." If that is true, who is in control? Is it just random? If He is GOD OVERALL (Ephesians 4:6) or not? Thanks in advance for the clarification.
I think he is referring to God's active vs. passive will. Active will includes things God directly ordains, and passive will includes things God allows to happen. He is still sovereign, but he doesn't directly cause every event.
@@joelpierce1453 Thank you for your response. So I guess my question at that point would be, and I understand you are saying that God allows it, is He surprised when these allowed events happen? Has He planned for all the directions that these allowed events can go? Is He just waiting for it happen?
@@kenarnold34 I don't think God *can* be surprised except when Jesus was actively limiting his omniscience, as he seems to have done while on earth (by that I just mean he seems to have refused to access certain knowledge). I think God allows for as much variance as possible within his broader plan. Things broadly will end up a certain way no matter what, but individual fate, whether we accept Christ and enter eternity with Him or reject Christ and enter eternal torment, that decision is up to us.
Like when you type an address into google maps and it shows you multiple routes, I think God, in his infinite wisdom, has chosen the best route possible with full knowledge of what decisions each individual would make.
I have a question about John the baptist …………john the baptist being “ the witness “, greatest among man born out of a woman” according to jesus himself..…and in John 1:32 “ Then John gave this testimony: “I SAW the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
33 “And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water TOLD ME, ‘The man on whom YOU SEE THE SPIRIT come down and remain IS THE ONE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit. 34 “ I HAVE SEEN AND I TESTIFY THAT THIS IS GOD’S CHOSEN ONE.”……….
But…..,after this, when john the baptist is in prison, john the baptist SENDS messengers to jesus to ask him if he ( jesus ) is the one or that they should wait for someone else……..Luke 7:18 “Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. 19 And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “ARE YOU THE COMING ONE, OR DO WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER? ” 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ”……..??!!! Why did John this…….?? Very confusing!!!
1) God and Satan
3:52 - 1 Chronicles 21:5 and 2 Samuel 24:9
4:57 and 5:20 - Why not both?
6:20 and 6:33 and 6:44 - Job
6:53 - Jesus and Judas
7:08 - 1 Peter 4:19 and 1 Peter 5:8
7:30
7:40 - Here’s part of what Mike Winger said, “… God and Satan can both be active in different ways at the same time.”
7:47 - 2 Corinthians 12:7
8:27 - Genesis 50:20
2) Different numbers
9:34 - Different numbers of soldiers in 1 Chronicles 21:5 and 2 Samuel 24:9
11:08 and 11:45 - difference in description?
12:57 - Judah’s numbers
13:36
3) 2 Samuel and James 1:13 - temptation
19:13
19:50
20:09
21:39
4)
22:10 , 23:28
Thank you 🙏🏼
Dear Winger,
If these verses were being tried in court the solutions you arrived at, however logical they are, would also be objected by opposers and quickly put away by the judge. Reason being that there's not information surrounding the text to overturn the more immediate understanding which is that these don't match.
I remember when I first heard the first one. I told the person to give me a second to look into it and that I believe it has to do with a modern view of the term Satan verses what was meant in the OT. Came back expressing Satan meaning the accuser and how it was simply stating the individual who accuses, which could still be God. We too often put modern definitions into our interpretations.
P.s. I like the answer given here as well, because regardless as to whether it was actually Satan it not it still isn't a contradiction, since both could easily have done the same thing for different reasons.
I actually don't agree with this one. Satan in the OT is named the accuser, because he accuses the people of Israel to God. God can't be the accuser, since He can't accuse someone to anyone, since He is the Most High being
@@stevej71393 I would not argue that interpreting the accuser as Satan is modern. That would be a misunderstanding of my argument. Rather I would argue that the understanding of the word Satan as always being a specific individual when referenced in scripture is modern. Similar to other assumptions we commonly make concerning Satan in the OT. This isn't to argue even that Satan isn't an actual individual or isn't ever refered to as specific individual in certain instances throughout the old and new testaments, simply that it isn't always the case. As names were often given as titles which marked certain accomplishments, roles, or desires. (For instance Jacobs name becoming Israel, or Simon to Peter, or Saul to Paul.Or how parents would name their children in the OT in hopes that they would live up to their name.)
@@antezulj4453 I would refer to my answer to Steve as I believe my answer to him covers this reply as well
@@KainL33 It really doesn't cover it. God cannot accuse someone, to whom would He accuse some to?
If we as Christians are going to claim the bible is inerrant, then we have to be able to explain these types of contradictions, to other believers & to non-believers.
I agree
Another example of God and demonic forces being involved in the same act would be when Ahab is preparing for his final battle. Through the prophet we find out that God asked who would tempt Ahab to go into battle so that he would be judged for his sins, and a lying spirit volunteered to go down and lie to Ahab through his false prophets. (I Kings 22:19-23)
And God even told Ahab all of that and he still chose to believe his false prophets! It's just like Judas who was a liar and a thief and Jesus allowed the devil to lead Judas by greed to betray Jesus.
For the algorithm
the "Valiant Men" could also be Green Berets or Navy Seals
These are very informative, the only thing I have issue is is maybe the numbers are off because ‘1 million’ wasn’t known back then because in Britain, 1 billion doesn’t exist. They say 1 thousand million, much like originally the number of man (666), was ‘616’ in the original text, so is the anti- Christ 666 or 616? Also, the numbers thing could be the whole miscount maybe ? Very interesting explanation of the census thing. I never thought there were biblical contradictions, but it’s good to know the answer.
There are a lot of people here, which are knowledgeable. I want to ask about satan. I've seen translations.. some mean accusor, well, most mean, and few seem to refer to the actual guy, Lucifer. What i wanna know is.. are Samael and Lucifer different entities? Does one of them not exist at all? Got any good referenxes on the matter?
These are excellent questions. The short answer is: yes, these are different deities.
The ha’satan is at first a title for the accuser at the divine council as in Job. By 2 Chronicle’s, Satan has evolved into an independent evil entity. Of course. The New Testament runs with this concept.
Brother, I love you soo much..I'm from India. I am a big fan of you and your ministry..This is my the most favourite youtube channel.. I wish I can talk to you😭I want to talk to you personally 😭
Please reply
God bless you! Pastor Mike takes questions from listeners every Friday at 1:00 p.m. (PT) during his weekly Q&A sessions. He'd love to have you join us to send in a question!
@@sarahfaith316 Sure, I'll join the live this time. Thank you for replying 😊
I like the ending of this video the most. I think the Bible is intentionally written on that way. When you only know a little about a topic there will be something that invites you to take the deep dive.
I see quite a few comments saying that the "Valiant Men" must be green beret or navy seal equivalents. But looking at the numbers, the "Valiant Men" are ~72% of the total fighting age men. So unless they had a serious training program, this is unlikely the case.
More likely, the "Unvaliant Men" are likely fighting age but either too young or, more likely, too old to be considered passable fighters.
Then they’re not fighting age
9:00 speaking of Yeshua in the OT, I believe one of the earliest, if not the earliest, prophecy in general and also prophecy relating to the death of Yeshua comes in Genesis 3:15. Where Yeshua is the offspring of the woman and the religious leaders (Pharisees and Sadducee) or Satan himself are the offspring of the serpent. The prophecy is the a offspring of the serpent will bruise the heel of the offspring of the women, and he will bruise the head of the offspring of the serpent. Yeshua was pierced through the heel and his blood feel onto Golgotha, (Place of the Skull [Matthew 27:33]) every drop bruising the Head of the offspring of the serpent.
Anyone with a passing familiarity of Aristotilean causation would have no problem with the God/satan issue here in Chron and James. What's more perplexing is why God would want to punish *Israel* by inciting *David*. How does David's sin accrue to all Israel?
I would like to know what you think of pastor Chris
I also wanted to point out a possibility that the distinction between Israel and Judah may be a clue to the reason for the census. It may be that David was comparing his tribe's army against northern Israel's.
Also, it mentions that the Lord was angry with Israel and so incited David to take the census. It may be a national feeling of pride - one tribe against another. We're not told why the census was evil, in fact there are other censuses that seem to be fine.
I think this idea of national pride and strength of armies is a good possibility.
He ruled over all of Israel. He took it because he had a bunch of enemies surrounding him.
He never thought about Judah fighting the other tribes.
@@bennywolfe4357 Where do you see this in Scripture? And what does it have to do with God being angry at Israel?
He was counting his wealth. The wealthy often believe the do not need God because of wealth. Its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Than for a rich man to make it in heaven. Not good. Shalom
It also reminds me of the story of Job.
The major issue with David's census is being ignored completely. The biblical concepts of sin and "godly" justice MUST BE FLAWED when innocent people are punished for things they're not responsible for. That is NOT justice, nor could it be justice in any universe or reality where MORALITY exists. When we leave eisigesis off to the side, we're left with a rather 2-dimensional account.
The 2 accounts of the census leave us with no choice but to face up to the facts. Those 70,000 innocent people got no second chances to resolve what David did. They were offered no course of atonement or a way out. Hmmm kind of out of character for a supposedly "merciful" god. They paid the ultimate price for David and were slaughtered like chattle. End of Story. This wasn't the first time that people in the Bible were punished for something they didn't do, nor would it be the last time.
What makes this census account so frustrating is that later in the Bible, several kings of Israel are put to death for rather minor acts of arbitrary offenses to YHWH. Like Uzziah's lighting of incense after many years of faithful rulership. So by those precedents, NONE of these people had to die in David's stead. If anyone should've lost their life for the upset of the census, it was King David. In fact, for all of David's actions up to that point, Divine justice should've demanded that King David lose his life. But that's not what happened. In fact, at almost every turn we see David is beyond reproach and above the law.
David deserved death for killing Uriah and for raping Bathsheba. Despite laws against killing babies YHWH strikes Bathsheba's innocent newborn with fever for a week until it dies. I guess Ezekiel 18:20 "didn't come into YHWH's heart" at this time. David's innocent concubines are either literally raped in broad daylight (2 Sam 12:12) or later raped by Absalom. And finally, in the case of the census, 70,000 people take the fall for David's sins, which somehow satisfies divine justice?! Everyone's treated like a pawn in David's time. Ahhh, the warm fuzzy morality of the biblical universe.
When it comes to understanding a God of love, ideally everything he does should be done with LOVE. Love is not some tribal, quasi-legal rule-based trapeze act. Love simply acts for the best interest of other(s). If god loved his people he would've gladly protected them against the sins of one foolish idiot. But he didn't. All in all, the biblical God starts off as a tribal god of conquest and war, who cares little to nothing about any other groups of people. Rather than being a god of justice or principle, he breaks his own laws at any time he wants. He is obsessed with dominion and rulership for Israel rather than the well-being of others. He is easily provoked to mindless rampages when it suits him. It's so unflattering that many just ignore it. Jesus does not disown or explain away these grim deeds by YHWH. Often times he mirrors that same apocalyptic sentiment in a watered down, soft-peddled way.
Please, Don't allow yourself to be little more than a valueless pawn in this religious chess game. Do yourself a favor and look into the origins of ancient Hebrew religious doctrine as well as the true history of the Greek and Hebrew religious texts. The evidence for the pagan origins of YHWH and the religious practices surrounding this deity are well documented. I recommend MythVision's TH-cam channel. And there are plenty of books and college lectures on this subject.
Interesting. I'm just thinking as we try to articulate the possibilities that Jas. 1:13 must be considered...God does not tempt anyone.
I think he came very close to making it plain; here is my extra bump on it: God had judged David already and decided to discipline and teach or correct him. Then decides to do it by allowing satan to tempt him. I think this dynamic that I suggest is more clear in the Ahab history when a similar thing happens.
Galatian revealed OT was allegory 4: 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory:
Even allegory Jesus hinted Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Does no one realize that by the Bible saying that God incited David, that means that God is said to be responsible for David’s tempting. Yes, you can reconcile this and say that David was tempted by Satan at God’s direction or through his providence, but the ultimate responsibility still rests at God’s feet as the biblical author directly says when he says that God incited David.
This has HUGE theological consequences and contradicts James 1 that says God tempts no one.
Some things I've noted about David's census: 1.) God's conversation with Satan in Job could give an illustration of how Satan was released to incite David. 2.) The census was really a test of David's heart, like Job he accepted responsibility and repented. That being said, I'm wary of the lay who say Satan is attacking them personally. Now I'm prolly wrong, but I just have a hard time believing that Satan would have much interest in little folks like us when he can twist whole governments and afflict entire nations with such ease. That leads me to 3.) I am well aware that humans are masters of self-delusion and left to our own devices we will destroy ourselves. Jesus Christ is our *only* hope of salvation!
Maybe Satan could also mean him or his angels as well
Think about the “council” of God. And how he allowed ideas of how he was going to deal with Ahab. And one came forth and said he would be a lying spirit. That sounds exactly like how he would use satan, or the adversary. Satan was never capitalized, although I just did because it was the first word in my English written sentence, ever ever ever ever until the book of Revelation. But a bunch of bibles do capitalize it when they shouldn’t. But in the revelation that’s when you will have the one that acts as if he is God. Hence there will be one to represent “them” the whole lot of them. The adversaries of God. The fallen ones. The ones that were in His council.
The "contradiction" about Jericho in the miracle where Jesus heal a blind man would have been impossible to resolve if the two jerichos were not discoverd long after the middle age.
This should be a great lesson to us that there is always a solution, you just might not know it.
It would have been silly for someone to denynthe faith for the jerichos contradiction and die like 10 years before they are discoverd.
James 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
And that is what happened to King David
The author of James has a different concept of God from the Hebrew Bible. He is contradicting previous conceptions.
Mike winger is taking off into the skys
How is God in controlling without controlling and how do you take all of the verses of God hardening the hearts of many nations so that the children or Israel could overwhelming destroy them??
Valiant men = “Seal Team”?
6 And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you.
Leviticus 11:6 (ESV)
Hare doesn't chew the cud. I recognize that for me today it is not important if they do or if they don't, for "Thus he declared all foods clean."
Mark 7:19 (ESV) , but from the jews' table it took a foodsource. And also if i read this, i wouldn't say that the Bible is inerraneous. And then there is that pi = 3, talking about the bronze sea 1Kn 7:23.
I have a question:
What's so prideful about David wanting to take a census?
A census isn't inherently wrong, but a King might count his fighting men so that he could brag about the size of his army. I think the passage implies that we was proud of how great Israel had become and wanted to rely on his numbers instead of on God.
@@joelpierce1453 well said
@@Nov_Net because Yahweh is a narcissistic deity 🙄