I would also love your perspective on the passage about men and women prophesying in the end times. This verse is used in my church as a supporting verse for women in ministry. Hopefully you will cover it!
I was baptized as I knew that Jesus Christ forgives all my sins but at that time was living in sin but wanted to get out of it and many months later by the power of Holy Spirit I was out of it also I thought that in God there will be no problems in my life but after growing in Christ I found that there will be problems in my life but Holy Spirit will guide me and help me . So my question is that shall I be rebaptised due to sin at that time and incomplete theology ?
@@elitabilities8269 If you are not baptized by a holy disciple of Christ you will be partaking in the sins and wrongdoings of the Pastor in twice the measure. Hence, check the man who baptize you for: is his spirit from God ? Does he continue in the word of Jesus according to John 8:31? Is his righteousness above that of Pharisees and scribes according to Mathew 5:19?Is he recognized by Jesus as His trained disciple according to John 17:16?
Groothuis - in Afrikaans, or Dutch, would be Bighouse, or Greathouse. Phonetically I don't think you should worry too much since it would be like asking an English speaker to pronounce French surnames absolutely correctly every time. Groot - as in the now famous "I am Groot" from the marvel movies, or a tree root, would have been fine, and Huis - phonetically - like army "base" but with the "h" - so Groothase and you are there. Either way - great job!
I recently posted this to Mike but haven't received a response yet - you might be interested: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, the contradictions between those verses and the rest of the bible are instantly resolved. All that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes such damage to the church and to many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
@@JoanDArc77 absolutely, as well a female apostle is mentioned in the NT long with women prophesying, teaching a man, and let's not forget Deborah led the whole nation of Israel!
"You cannot bypass the Bible." - That's the takeaway for me. I find in most issues where there is debate, people are doing just that....bypassing the Bible and appealing to some other authority.
I wonder if these "Egalitarians" (funny term for saying my ideas are better then Gds) have ever read Titus or if they just skip that epistle. Paul clearly outlines the requirements for leadership
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@miikatmp5873The mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if he didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain they won't be mentioned in the other 9 - most likely he's completely unaware of it. And what "paradox" are you referring to?
"This video series is for people who want to submit to God, so that's the price of entry." Such a beautiful statement! Come seeking God not justification for your veiws. Sooooo good!! I'm mostly complementarian but I am here to learn and grow and unafraid to follow the truth the best I can. Both sides can do this, it is just a simple decision of your heart to trust God more than yourself. Thank you Pastor Mike!!
Control freaks always say that ... And it's not god who keeps wanting to make a hierarchy of humans. That would be men, who want to be on top while women are on the bottom. Anytime you see anyone telling women they need to sit down and shut up while the men are not, that is from the devil. Repent now, cos you gonna burn. The problem is, there's only bible. Yet so many different churches have a billion different interpretations and they're all claiming they alone have the One True Voice of God in their ear. If all of you can't come to an agreement, then... something is wrong with "christians".
@@Sirkento It means that it only feels true to you, because you want it to be true. Humans are very much subject to bias, and not everyone has the same experiences as you.
@@iMidnightStorm so by that logic you are basically saying there is no empirical truth and no point in striving towards it. That doesn't make any logical sense so this sounds more like an attempt to evade a knowledge of the truth, which everyone has the right to do with their life. But unfortunately it will not change the empirical truth and at some point everyone will have to decide what they want to believe and who they want to follow. There is a lot of Truth to the idea that we were very good at self-justification and invent ideas via bias but it does not exclude us from attempting to follow the ideals set before us nor do our biases in any way affect empirical truths. The point of what I was saying is God is out there and he loves us and he wants us to genuinely follow him but it is up to the discipline and humility of each person individually to decide to try to follow what he says and not just follow the things that sound good and make them feel good. If you don't already have a relationship with Jesus you should hit him up; there is literally nothing else that you were made better to do in all of creation and there is nothing that can ever adequately replace your need to have an eternal relationship with our creator. As a final note I don't care how bad you've been, what you've done wrong in secret that no one is found out about oh, what you have thought about or how badly you may look at yourself; you will never be too far gone to turn around and embrace your savior and accept his forgiveness except after the end of your life.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr see yourself as the center, and all moves around you. Saying this moves around that is kind of absurd. Everything goes around everything. And the math works out the same, just more complex, depending.
@@yury2749 And there it is. The philosophy of why you don't want the earth at the center. It's not humble enough. Nevermind that it's the truth! We must avoid it at all costs, philosophically. Edwin Hubble agrees! No matter how convoluted, never allow the earth to be at the center. That implies a God after all.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr what is at the center is a matter of perspective. I am not sure I follow your meaning exactly. But we are putting grammar onto entities that follow something far higher and more tangible than physics equations. I am at the center, but I do my best to orbit christ.
@Thomas B It's true, I think I saw a quote by Einstein that it would be equally correct to say the sun goes around the earth as the earth goes around the sun. It's basically like they're admitting it. Even in their convoluted theories, the sun can still be going around the earth! And it is.
Does the Bible teach that the present culture’s belief overturn the word of God? The majority of the Roman Catholic Churches beliefs are based on tradition and not the word of God. What sparked Luther’s reformation?
Look deeper into translation choices of words. And, no,being a second class citizen is not ok. I don’t believe Paul believed it, but the translators who worshipped at Aristotle’s feet did. Translators can really put a spin on things and so can taking things out of context. God did not make women second class, men did that. Like the word “ helpmeet” in Genesis translated “ally” when discussing King Hiram, King. David’s friend. Why isn’t he a little helpmeet? You were wrong about blacks and slavery and you are wrong about this too. I will join no church rather than be a member of yours.
@@jumperstartful the comment was that culture is not the final word. Me must conform our ways, and our views to truth ( Gods wisdom ). The Catholic Church was not and still in many ways IS not in truth. Reformation came from a biblical and true analysis of the word of God.
Culture for almost all history has been very restrictive of women. To avoid "bowing to culture" one must abandon this entitlement mentality for males. God is no respecter of persons, and judges by the heart rather than the flesh.
Yes, amen. Sadly, many churches have distorted the idea of male leadership so much that their teaching enables and encourages that kind of abuse. I'm a staunch complementarian, but I've seen this situation play out first-hand.
Maybe try reading the Bible before commenting. The Bible tells men to honor their wives and lay down their lives for them. Doing otherwise, such as abusing the wife and family, is obviously a sin bc it is doing the opposite of what the Bible says.
@@michaelgilroy1096 I think you’ve misread the comment. I believe this person means that other people (people who likely haven’t read the Bible) say that husbands abusing their wives and treating them like property is because the Bible says men are the head and women are to be submissive however we (yourself and the original commenter included) who actually read the Bible can agree that abuse of the wife and children by the husband is contrary to what scripture says because of the command for the husband to love the wife as Christ loved the church and other scripture guidelines for how a husband should treat his wife and manage his household.
Hey! Another Jackel/Jaekel! Hi. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. My Jäckel (Jaeckel) ancestors (Erdmann, and his son Herman), came from Germany (East Prussia, now part of Poland) in the 1840s, to the Barossa Valley, and the town, Tanunda, in the state of South Australia. After his wife, Johanna, died, in the early 1850s, Erdmann moved to Melbourne, in the state of Victoria, with his children, Herman and Louise (pronounced Louisa). He remarried and they had a daughter. Both daughters married Germans. Herman married an English woman, Phoebe Allen, and they had 5 sons and 3 daughters (one died at age 5yo). All the best.
When I was 22yo I legally changed my surname spelling to "Jaekel" by deed poll. My father wasn't happy! But people did pronounce it correctly: 'jay-kell' and not 'jackal'. 2-3 years later I really got into family history and genealogy and decided to change the spelling back to "Jackel", given that was one of the family lines I was researching.
"There is a large debate among scholars" I've always said it takes at least a masters, if not a PHD to figure out how to get the Bible to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says.
yep. it's fascinating how many "scholars" and debate it takes to understand god's "perfect" word. almost like it's just a bunch of word salad that you have to push through mental gymnastics to get it to say what you want it to say.
I have a history of putting "scholars" (biblical and not) in their place with facts. It seems we have gotten away with critical thinking in school and just straight indoctrination of the teacher believes.
No there's debate because people who study it to the point of the history and context starts to take place. Or the context within language. And you and I having not studied that never had to look beyond that, same way people back in the day didn't have an education and you had to trust your pastor OR go learn... Crazy ik
@@Shakiahjprod except Paul makes it very clear it has to do with the creative order and the inherent weakness in the nature of man or woman. So those arguments are independent of culture and the times. But yes, culture and societal norms of the time is the argument they like to use, which is completely inappropriate in the actual context of what was written. The complete disaster we are witnessing in society and the church as we've accepted the feminist ideology of our times is proof of the validity of the text and the dishonesty of their "intellectual" arguments. But like l said, they have to use such dishonest arguments to make the Biblical text to mean the opposite of what it actually says.
Man, that whole "bypassing the Bible" concept, by itself has challenged me so much!!! WOW!! This really helps think about this topic in a more measured way, cos it instantly picks out where our sources come from.
Yes this I agree with! I see this a lot with some peoples opinions on how/whether the Holy Spirit works today and some views clearly bypass the Bible and it’s sad. I pray God helps us see the right way!
Pastor Mike, as a Christian woman who has very much struggled with these issues (wanting to be egalitarian as well) I can’t tell you how incredibly thankful I am for your voice presenting a loving, thorough, Bible-centered, nuanced approach to these issues. This series is SO helpful and I know it’s not the popular subject to tackle but it has really helped me understand these issues for myself. Thank you!!!
The Bible isn’t nuanced in this issue; it’s clear, plain, and understandable. The “nuance” comes out when people don’t like what God says on a given subject.
Have you ever been to a site called Tru 3:16-the Eden Podcast. It trues up the scriptures from Gen 3:16 and gives lots of correct info about the genders and what God truly meant for men and women to be. very enlightening and eye opening.
@@matthewdyer2926 Are you disagreeing with the approach Mike Winger has taken on this issue? I used the word “nuanced” to describe his methodological approach of examining all sides and carefully pointing back to scripture. I didn’t use the word “nuance” to describe the Biblical teaching itself. I’m not sure if you understood my comment.
@@Meg_219 You may be right; I could have misunderstood. The word “nuance” has somewhat recently become the mantra of the evangelical Left, being referenced whenever any plain Biblical truth comes into conflict with the zeitgeist and needs to be explained away. Most hot-button Biblical issues today aren’t all that nuanced; nuance is merely injected in order to muddy the clear waters and shift opinions away from Biblical clarity, toward popular opinion. Egalitarianism versus Biblical patriarchy is one of the issues which often receives this treatment. If you didn’t mean it in this way, then I retract my statement.
@@matthewdyer2926 Thank you. I appreciate that- that’s not what I meant. I am not on the evangelical left, nor am I a progressive Christian, nor am I even egalitarian (though I admit I used to *want to be). I just think it’s important for us as Christians to still be careful about labeling people based on their use of a word (like “nuanced”) before asking more specific questions about what they meant. As a pretty theologically conservative Christian, I’m sure I would agree with you on many things the Bible is very clear about and I agree that progressive Christians will try to add nuance where there is none, but I do think there is value in taking an approach that seeks to accurately represent the other side (as Mike Winger does) and then pointing back to scripture. As we grow more and more polarized and “us vs them” in our culture, this approach seems to happening less and less, so I’m thankful that Winger tries to bridge that gap by being gracious to each “side” of an issue while still boldly defending Biblical truth.
Yes, sometimes putting truth on the line, hard and firm, it is very difficult for some to take. It is complicated by our current world view now, too. Everyone has an axe to grind, and almost everyone can find an argument in certain places of The Holy Bible. We have to take it to heart: Who Are We Arguing With? Can we make the stars? Can we stop the tides. We are not "all that and a bag of chips"! We were given breath as a gift from God our Father, no matter what we think or how we decide what the plainly written word of God really says. If you read the Bible long enough, you are going to get your feelings hurt, whether woman or man. When we find that place, where we feel like arguing with our Heavenly Father, that is the place we should study harder. HE is never wrong. WE are His creation. We need to keep in mind that we did not hang the stars. They are just there, and what's more is, they are there at the pleasure of God Almighty. God bless you mightily, my brother! Dean
Or maybe scriptures have been interpreted through the biased lens of men? There are two major camps on this, and biblical scholars do not agree. That should tell us something. Also, most of the men doing the pontificating on women in ministry are coming at it through the lens of marriage which is actually the correct context. But!There are also single women in the church and many are staying away because of the entrenched patriarchy in the church. They are more free to use their gifts and talents outside the church than they are within. Shameful! Their head is also Jesus Christ, not a husband.
@@wiznup This seems to be a sore spot for you, sister. Jesus is the husband of all the church. We need to get that out in the open. After that, we recognize women leaders in the Church, such as Phoebe, Tabatha (Dorcus), Ruth, DEBRA, Ester, and many others. Why not include them in your opinions? Did they escape you, or are you keying in on the obvious intonation that "God" is "Father", a male figure? Jesus was a male. Moses was a male. King David was a male. Oh, wait... Mary (Jesus mom) was a female. Mary of Magdelene was female. Junius was female. Elizabeth was female, and so on. Don't get hung up on this, my sister. The second human being ever made was female. God is not very concerned with how we use the bathroom or if we wear a dress or jeans.
It’s going to take faith,patience, and focus to wade through this. I’m very grateful for the help. The issue can be so divisive, but I want truth and God to be glorified. Thank you.
It's not even about complementarian versus egalitarian views. It is about What God Says through his word. Excellent teaching! I recommended the rest of our elder board to watch this series.
What about when the women know what's in The Word, and the men, not only, do not know The Word, but have given themselves over to passions and demons. Can women gather wheat on the Sabbath, or not? This is not rhetorical; I am really asking your opinion.
How can you guys believe in this book written by cavemen? There is no more proof that god exist than Zeus or Santa Clause. Time to grow up and use your brain
Equal but different has never worked. Society will end up valuing one set of skills over the ever. Jesus in his ministry had many women included in all roles
Hey Mike, Thanks so much for the video. I am an egalitarian who used to be a complementarian. My experience of this debate thus far has largely been one of feeling isolated. When I was a complementarian - people told me that I REALLY believed what I believed not from my reading of scripture, but because I was a male chauvinist who wanted women to be oppressed. Once my studies led me to become egalitarian (it looks like you are going to be covering the same passages and arguments - so I'm all ears for what you have to say), I found that complementarians told me that I REALLY just wanted to bow to the world and I was twisting scripture to do so. I've heard many egalitarians ride off complementarian men as bullies who abuse their wives. I've heard complementarians ride off egalitarian men as wimps who take no responsibility and are door mats for their wives. I was not looking forward to this series as I was worried you would ride off the other side with same strawman arguments as has been done before (particularly on youtube and the internet). I may have come to different conclusions to you (thus far - I reserve the right to be wrong and to change my mind), but I agree with what you said in this video - it was a breath of fresh air on this debate.
Any one telling you that your complementarían views are because you want to oppress women is spiritually bullying you and is likely not a real follower of Jesus, just to be honest. The other view, I don’t judge motives I just honestly don’t get it. I’ll hear the best arguments out though in due time,
If women are to be silent in the church and never to exercise authority over a man, then how could one possibly be a pastor and lead a church ??? Lol do you not see the contradiction? God's word says they are to be silent and not have authority, so how could one who is to be silent and never have authority possibly lead a whole church ? Haha END OF DEBATE .
@@j-arthur6657 context. When it says women are to be silent in the church it is in a gentilic context. Women were interrupting services by asking questions during the sermon - something common in pagan circles where there was a conversation between congregants and the oracle. Basically, Paul is saying, if you have a question, ask it at home or after the service. Also, the word for "authority" in the Greek, particularly in it usage in the Greco-Roman world, on top of the entire clause suggests "abuse of authority" not any authority whatsoever. Go deeper than just the English translation. Remember, the English translation is an interpretation of Scripture. A translation team actually sat down and tried their best to put a descriptive and large language like Greek into a bland and small language like English. Often times the thought in the translation becomes lost. Knowing the biblical languages is essential. So don't start knocking egalitarians, they have an excellent argument.
@@j-arthur6657 Man… I’m a complimentarian and you’re either embarrassing us or not really a Christian and intentionally trying to sow discord among believers.
@@j-arthur6657 you clearly never read my comment, just what you wanted to try and prove your point. You're insulting to others on this thread. We're trying to have a civil and Christlike convo and you're just bashing everyone and laughing. I'm done here. This isn't edifying. It's people like you who are the reason the church can't have deep conversations. It's just all insults. As a someone who claims Christ you need to heavily look into your own heart before you start criticizing other believers who you basically ignored and didn't even bother to read in their entirety. Basic historical context tells you what is happening here, but you just want to ignore that for the sake of your own argument without even taking notice of it it.
Me too brother. Particularly as a man myself I feel like I'm treading around a minefield whenever I try to confront this issue. I tried to dig into this and found so many different and confusing scholarly conclusions, and knowing the social consequences for going in one direction or the other, I decided just to not try to cross the minefield at all. I'm really glad someone I trust has tackled this issue so carefully and I'm hoping to come out the other side of this with a better understanding.
Me too man. Ive just accepted a position in a denomination that refers to itself as “fully egalitarian” and is “ashamed it took them so long to do so” in like 1997. Wrestled heavily with this. Went back and forth so long. Not settled totally. I want to be egalitarian, but I want to be Biblical and settled in my position (but not unwilling to wrestle with it ever again as necessary).
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 Mike is going to address a lion's share of what you said here. Not to say I agree or disagree, but he has not even gotten there yet. This is a 10 video series and this is merely introductory and cursive. I am interested to see how he will handle this issue.
@@logansales7000 The mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if he didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain it won't be mentioned in the other 9 - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be sure he's completely unaware of the problem with those verses - once the mistranslation is corrected, you don't need 10 videos to deal with this topic.
God's word doesn't change , humanity does, society has become more and more progressive and it's seeping into the church and try to twist the Bible into fitting into our needs. I agree pastor Mike
@@laurenalmeyda6916 I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 He did months of research. Do you think he wouldn't've run across this during any of that? Checking the Greek is just about the first thing pastors do with any disputed verse.
@@omnitroph1501 An introductory video that doesn't include mentioning the translation error regarding the 2 verse which are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos aren't required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
@@JoanDArc77 "You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses"... Having followed Mike's channel for a while now, I am confident you are completely giving him too little credit. You are judging the end result without watching the other videos. That seems a bit shortsighted, don't you think? If the issues you brought up is in fact never mentioned then your objections are valid. On the other hand, every time someone adamantly states that our understanding of Scripture is because of a specific mistranslation, there are flags raised for me. 1. Which translations specifically? 2. Does the commenter have the necessary linguistic experience to claim this, or can they point to good scholarly articles where this position or problem is discussed?
I am a complimentarion evangelical Christian, and I feel the bible clearly states that men and women have different roles - I am glad that you are discussing all info available and keeping it scripture based. I feel that those who are liberal egalitarian are too easily swayed to then become "progressive" Christians that are not scripture based,. I am looking forward to all of this series. I loved the whole head covering video x
Why women can’t be a head pastor and teach men? Because men won’t listen or hear anything they say. GOD knows men are animals and no matter what that woman wears while she is speaking men will always be thinking of se$ regarding her. Her hair, her dress, her eyes, her lips, men will see all of that and not even remember what that woman was saying. 😂 it’s just life and humans.
Egalitarianism is not a liberal view. It has been in practice since the early to mid 1800”s since the second great awakening in American history. Charles G. Finley could not by any stretch be called a liberal.
The languages used is certainly very post-modernist sounding, especially when it comes to the topic of abuse. Lived experience is king, and any power structure/hierarchy is a system of oppression. I'm interested to see what some of their other arguments are and why Mike takes a "soft-complementarian stance," and not, I suppose "fully complementarian," but so far the egalitarian view appears to be more inspired by left-wing ideologies than biblical theology.
@@Faith_and_Thought I agree about egalitarianism and postmodernism, but I also see the thick comps as being influenced by these things. Sure, Comps give the power more firmly to the man, but they also see gender as two monolithic identity groups who interact largely through power dynamics. This is straight out of critical theory. You’ll also see many comps saying something is true because they * felt* it was true. Piper is a pro at this, but others do it too. As far as felt experience goes, many ladies find they are laughed at, mocked and ignored if they say they’ve been abused. Many conservative men see this as a “feminist tactic” and refuse to listen. Many men believe all ladies are controlling and out to usurp authority and therefore should not be believed. They also feel the abused woman is “proving” feminism right, and they must sweep her experience under the rug and shut her up. It’s all about winning the culture war. As Kevin DeYoung put it, “Ladies stop talking about abuse. You’re making the feminists win!” Many of these ladies are only heard and helped by others who have also been abused. I think this is why they talk about lived experience. Doesn’t mean truth is subjective, like the postmoderns mean. Just that we can often be self centered and not hear the other person.
As to the question of WHY so much of the Church doesn't reason biblically about this issue, I'm reminded of a quote from Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on them not understanding it."
The fact that Upton Sinclair is being quoted to make an argument on something about the Bible is ironic. It is better just to quote 1 Timothy 6:10 and leave Sinclair’s works to unbelievers.
@@Michael_the_Servant are you implying that anythink that Sinclair ever said cannot be truthful or used as an argument? shouldnt factual things or ideas be independent of its creator?
Ignacio P., let what is factual be factual, but Upton Sinclair’s works are ripe with lies. “The Jungle” actually lead to a federal investigation and report that refuted so many of the claims he wrote as facts. His works are merely fiction propaganda to support the agenda of his beliefs. So, you have bad beliefs, lack of morals, and false writings. Why would you ever reference him or his works?
Jesus submitted his will to the will of His Father. Would an egalitarian perceive then that Jesus was claiming He was in some way not equal with His Father - or in some way inferior - or in some way of less value? The submission within the persons of the Trinity speaks to me ultimately of the sublime nature of love, involving submission and sacrifice on behalf of the other for their good - and their glory. Thanks Mike for all the time you’ve taken to carefully and biblically explore this topic.
@@davidg1552 Jesus glorified His Father on earth by His perfect submission to the Father (John 17:4) as the final Adam. He - by means of His incarnation - did what man failed to do; and He did it to show the world how He loved the Father (John 14:30,31) and how mankind was to love God and our fellow believers (Ephesians 5:21) : by our submission for the sake of love. So as a man, the Father is greater than He. But as God, they are one essence with different functions. Jesus - in the context of the passage you quote (John 14:28) - is telling his disciples to be glad for him because when His obedience is complete, He is returning to the Father and the Father will glorify Him with the same glory He had with the Father before the world was created (John 17:5). Also in that passage, the ruler of this world has no power over Him because - unlike the first Adam, Jesus, the final Adam, did just as the Father commanded Him (John 14:31) and remained in His love (John 15:10).
If you read the bible objectively you will realise the trinity as it is taught, is not compatible with the bible. It is simply not taught. Read the bible without that preconcieved idea and you will see that Jesus was a man, born of a woman. Let that sink in first. Then realise he lived as a Jew, under the law, observing all of it and being subject to it himself. He prayed to God, who was also his father, because Joseph wasn't. Jesus said that he was ascending to his God and your God. Seriously does that sound like a third of some three person godhead?
Sadly, there can be harsh divisions even within degrees of complementarianism. I minister with a church that has taken a soft complementarian view (basically, women can do anything but be the preaching/senior minister or an elder), and we have been shunned by all the other churches from our denomination in the area who take very strict complementarian views on this issue. We would love to associate with them, but they don’t want anything to do with us. It’s heartbreaking to see people divide over secondary doctrinal issues. I appreciate your honesty and your heart. I, too, wanted so badly for years to hold an egalitarian view, but I simply couldn’t get around what Scripture says on the issue. I’m looking forward eagerly to the rest of this series!
I dont understand why he calls it a secondary issue when he quoted a bunch of people that were coming to conclusions like the bible is in error and that Jesus wasnt the authority while he was on earth. This is not a secondary issue, its a corruption within Christianity that destroys peoples faith.
@@ccrow3355 What some people hold on other issues has nothing to do with this particular issue. That’s a form of “guilt by association” fallacy. There are people with whom I have disagreements on primary issues that I can still affirm are correct on secondary issues. For example, I can agree with Apostate Prophet regarding his critiques of Islam even though he is an atheist.
@@ccrow3355 Primary issues are about salvation. If your theology on salvation is wrong your basis is completely wrong and you're not a Christian. People can make secondary issues into primary issues but Mike is countering this idea and saying these aren't primary issues and you shouldn't divide so heavily over them, but people tend to do it anyway.
@@tabletmaster291 I dont call him anything. I just think that this is much more serious than people are making it out to be. It is literally destroying churches and peoples faith. This is the way alot of fake Christians infiltrate churches and spread heresy.
If you say women cannot preach,then also women should not cut their hair,always keep it covered, please understand that certain thinks that Paul said was his own opinion, for that time period, i believe women can mist certainly preach
I'm coming to a place where I really dislike the argument, "well, it's a secondary issue....." When it comes to false teaching i don't believe there is a secondary issue. "A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf." I do not consider a church that permits women to be pastors my brothers and sisters. If they truly were I'd have no trouble going to thes churches. Yet you can see right in this comment section that MANY have divided over it and left their churches over this very issue. That makes it a primary issue. It's a mistake to categorize biblical doctrine on levels of importance. Why even have these things in scripture then?
I would be careful in not calling them your brothers and sisters. But I agree that it should not be simply put a secondary issue. The Bible clearly states woman are not to be pastors.
I'm sorry your channel took a hit for a while, and I am so excited to hear your research with an open mind and share it with friends who are also seeking biblical truth on this topic. I just wanted to add that the greatest example of submission and how submission does not make an individual less-than is our own Savior! He did not count equality as a thing to be grasped but submitted Hinself to the Father and because of these actions the Father has given him authority and a name above all! Thank you again for your dedicated time and please extend those thanks to your wife, friends and colleagues who supported and guided you as you studied.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 I am interested in what you are saying, also because, when I asked God if I should be wearing a headcovering, He indicated no, saying "I don't see you as married". I was surprised, for several reasons; 1)I hadn't even imagined that the verse was directed to wives only 2)I have been married before 3)I have not entertained the idea of remarriage because of God command to women about marriage ending when the spouse dies. My question is, what is your understanding on why God would see Eves transgression as being connected to her marriage? I have been thinking of implications; perhaps her act forced Adam to consider deliberately sinning versus dividing from his wife. Perhaps they were supposed to always agree BEFORE making a decision, and Eve didn't? Maybe Adam hadn't considered ever disagreeing with Eve. Then this would make sense; that unity can only be achieved between fallen mankind if the wife now submits since both are so individualistic and self-serving. Which leads to another implication; if husband and wife learn to agape love each other, the unity could exist without the wife being the one who must submit on every occasion. Also the every occasion would be in question because the decision to submit must be "as unto the Lord" (Eph 5:22), Not as though their husband IS Lord. That is, if he asks her to sin, she is not beholden to obey. Examples here would include Abigail and Nabal, and Sapphira and Ananias. Another question would be, why an unbelieving husband would be persuaded to become a disciple due to the submission of his wife.
@@JoanDArc77 so.... unmarried women can speak in a church, but married women are to be silent last they bring shame, and are to ask their husbands at home? 1. What is the purpose of this spousal subjugation? 2. How does that make any sense in any culture? 3. What does that have to do with "the Law" (1 Cor 14:34)
@@timffoster 1st, the Head of an unmarried woman is Christ alone and she has no restraints regarding public ministry other than good social conduct that everyone normally submits to. If she marries, then her husband takes over headship - that's something she must consider before signing on. She's agreeing to a subordinate role although according to Eph5:21 there's actually mutual submission involved - the husband is called to be a servant-leader not a dictatorial taskmaster. It's similar to Christ's exhortation to His disciples in Mt20:25 - “The rulers of the Gentiles have power and lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." Eph5 says husbands should have the same attitude of self-sacrifice for their wives as Christ did in dying for the church (His bride), ie, they should be servant leaders - in short, submission isn't a one way street but spouses actually submit one to another. 2nd, the admonition in 1Cor14 is simply that wives should not openly question their husbands opinions or doctrinal stances in the church but to resolve their differences at home - to challenge their own husbands in such a way would indeed be a disgrace and a violation of the marriage bond. There's nothing wrong with a wife speaking out in church if they're both in full agreement about what's going to be shared - that's where the head covering for wives mentioned in 1Cor11:5-6 comes into play - it's a sign she's not merely speaking on her own authority but that the husband is in full agreement.
Mike, besides all the biblical knowledge you share, what im learning from you all the time, is the love you put in to teach these biblical truths. You are doing a great job! Praise the Lord!
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 Not true. If you take whole biblical teaching into account, it's clear that even if there is an translation error, it's not possible to get to your assumptions. Please contact the channel owner. Maybe he will do a video answering you points.
11:08 I’ve put off listening to this series partly because I wasn’t sure I was ready to hear a long discussion about what I can and cannot do. I grew up complementatian and still hold those views but life has presented challenges to the simplistic form that I was taught. Every question (plus a couple) in the first ten minutes describes my adult life. Thank you for understanding the heart of the question and for your attitude in approaching it. I look forward to reaping the benefit of all your study.
I left a congregation because they brought in a female pastor to replace a pastor that left. While I am a complementarian in view I owe much to women regarding my salvation, from my grandmother to the girl who witnessed to me in high school. God used several women to lead me to Christ and I value them. I did not leave that assembly just because they hired a female as pastor but because it was a major step in a path in progressive theology that had already been bothering me and I wasn't willing to go any further in it and they were not willing or able to give me a solid biblical defense of the reasoning and choice.
Yeah seems leadership is major issue here, there were female pastors that dont really move to progressive teachings...Im thinking desame way should women be forbidden to teach,witness,write books etc.
I would have a very difficult time if my church allowed a female pastor or deacon. I do believe the Bible is clear that women were not intended to hold those positions. I do believe that God never said they could not teach or write books or even speak on the podium. Women can witness to others and at times it is culturally expected. God made all people to witness and share the Gospel.
Mike, thank you so much for tackling this. As a woman, I feel the need for a thoughtful, careful, and comprehensive teaching of this issue. Thank you for being willing to take on the work and push-back to provide the biblical clarity that is severely lacking. Blessings on you and your ministry.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
You said "Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short" He has released only 2 of the 10 videos, if you think he "fell short" when he literally hasnt even touched on 80% of his views, it is obviously because you have your mind made up already.
@@nikkowood4476 If a glaring translation error isn't resolved before producing even one video about this subject - including this introductory one, it will remain an elephant in the room and undermine anything he ever produces on the subject. The truth is, that when this mistranslation is corrected, the controversy almost instantly ceases, those 2 verses stop contradicting other portions of the bible, and the division ends.
I was laughing. I was crying. This podcast had me gather my thoughts and feelings,and placing them aside for biblical truth. I can't wait to listen again. I can't wait to hear the rest. Thank you for taking a deep dive into a very difficult issue. It will be nice to get a biblical view on a very important subject.
I recently posted this to Mike and you might be interested: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
Hey so I think Groothius's point was not so much that men can control every part of a woman's life, but that women are not given exclusive areas of authority that men do not share. Men can be pastors/elders and heads of the home, but what do women get to have authority over that men are not permitted to by scripture? Or what are they and they only allowed to do that men are not allowed to. Have babies I guess?
Excellent video! I pray that God will bless this whole series and use Mike to help many people think biblically about this controversial and practical topic.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
While I agree with you that it is not the gospel, this is absolutely worth divided if over. Name one denomination that hasn’t gone liberal after starting to ordain women. Every one of the denominations I can think of that has done this has gone liberal. Because when you dismiss the inerrancy of the Bible why not dismiss anything you want?
I’m not familiar with everything the Assembly of God believes. I do know a wonderful Christian that attended an Assembly of God church for awhile until her family found out they ordained women. The problem is, it’s clearly anti-Biblical to do that. So that In itself is departing from God’s plan for his church. It’s just so clear how churches are supposed to be structured and the requirements for leadership. It’s also clear the roles for men and women. I mean, if you can break that role, what other requirements for leadership can we break? Can pastors be divorced? I think those kinds of churches have no ground to stand on if they draw the line there because if they are breaking one clearly outlined rule, why not break more. There is only one reason churches even consider ordaining women and that is feminism. And I do believe feminism is evil and has been from the start. I used to say I was ok with first wave feminism just not the fourth wave we currently have. But that was naive of me and I didn’t know the history. The leaders of first wave feminism ALWAYS envisioned what we have now.
Perfectly stated. In one of his recent videos he talked about you have to take EVERYTHING the Bible states. You can’t pick and choose. Bible is very clear on this and would definitely be one issue that a church would be disobeying if females were pastors.
@Prey R well, definitely not trying to argue but I don’t think that homosexual issues etc. are the only error that a church can have. I mean, I know many Christians that are ok with New Age practices of all kinds (trapped energy used an excuse for sin, trapped bad energy spread down generations to cause sinful behavior as examples). Not to mention a church can be soft of gospel issues like Jesus being the only way to salvation, informing the effect of sin and preaching on it. All kinds of things. When we avoid things in the Bible, we tend to ignore other things as well. I guess that was my point. But again I really don’t know what AoG believes.
@Prey R I kind of thought that was the case but I didn’t want to accuse them without knowing as I’ve never been to an AoG and just don’t know, only what I have heard second hand.
In general, I'm not comfortable with the idea of female clergy, but I've also seen numerous churches where if women didn't step up, no one would have. I guess therein lies my opinion: it's not ideal, but sometimes the only other option is to leave a congregation unserved.
You continuously read with word submission where subordination has been written. They are not the same thing. Submission is a choice, free will. Subordination is not a choice of the subordinate.
Thank you for taking this topic on! I am a 72-year-old woman who is quite happy being a woman and submitting to God-given authority, I can hardly wait to hear the rest. God bless you Mike!
@@Gaibreel Not any more or less valuable. God expects every Christian to spread God's good word and to be a light in this dark world. God has an established order about life. If you aren't willing to submit to God's will, you can't be saved. Period.
@@Gaibreel it's not that men are more valuable. We are equally valuable with men. Im a woman btw. It's that putting a woman in front of the congregation leads to the low parts of men in the congregation coming to the forefront. Sexual fantasies. That, and we women have too much self confidence, self worth, to fall for gender wars in the church.
Mike, this discussion comes at a great time for me; I've been wrestling with the egalitarian question for a while, and it's been hard to find objective, biblically consistent, and culturally sensitive (both in contemporary as well as biblical contexts) discourse on the matter. Thank you for taking the time to understand and present this matter.
I recently posted this to Mike and considering your interest in the topic, you might be interested and it might resolve some of your questions: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions between those verses and other portions of the bible are instantly resolved and all that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses along with others that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
I want to thank you, Mike. The more I watch of these videos, the stronger my belief in egalitarianism becomes. (I used to be a firm believer in complementarianism). I'm not going to get into further discussion in the comment section because that would be virtually impossible to do with so many hours of video and people on the internet, and it isn't really the forum for that. But I would encourage everyone watching these videos to actually go to egalitarian sources, including the ones he refers to (that he sometimes misrepresents and misunderstands), to Scripture, and to prayer. Ask yourself: what egalitarian arguments is he not addressing or understanding properly? What questions about complementarianism does he not answer? What assumptions do he (or you) make? And truthfully, that is very difficult to do. We all have our biases and weaknesses and I am definitely not exempt from that. And it is especially difficult to investigate and ask questions if you are surrounded by people who all say the same things. And with hours and hours of video, we can mistakenly assume length is equal to accuracy. And there is just so much that it can be difficult to even begin to engage (made all the more difficult by Mike saying you shouldn't respond in disagreement unless you've watched all the videos). Despite telling us he wants to help us learn HOW to think and not WHAT to think, Mike does tell you what to think. He calls arguments dumb (sometimes before he even gets to the argument, setting you up to not even truly think about it because you don't want to be dumb). He doesn't show you how to study - he tells you what he studied and what he believes. But it's easy to come away agreeing with him and thinking you figured it out for yourself, when the videos set you up to agree with him and make discussion difficult. And he sometimes maligns egalitarians by saying the agenda is more important than faithfulness to the Word of God, and that we make people hate Christians. If you're anything like I was as complementarian, making egalitarians sound like a threat to my faith and witness to Christ was VERY effective at getting me to close my eyes and plug up my ears so I wouldn't even be able to hear what they had to say. Even so, I am grateful that Mike acknowledges that this is indeed a secondary issue and not a salvation one. And I would encourage all to not just sit and watch these videos, but to seek, pray and ask questions yourself. Whether you are (or become) a complementarian-turned-egalitarian like me, or an egalitarian-turned-complementarian, or remain wherever you were, if you have truly studied and wrestled and can articulate both the strengths and weaknesses of a position - including the strengths and weaknesses of your own, and nourish a respect for your fellow believers and a deeper love for God - that is a positive thing. While I do grieve that so many still believe in marital hierarchy and restraining half the body of Christ, everyone has to be convinced in their own walk with the Lord and there are always things we can learn from each other.
(1 Tim 3:2Therefore an overseer (a) must be above reproach, the👉 husband of one wife👈, (b) sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,)
Ironically, I’m complimentarian and my husband is leaning egalitarian. He is not ordained, but is functioning as a youth pastor. This is our most contentious topic as we discuss matters of ministry. I’m looking forward to this study and I hope that it can help my husband and I to have thoughtful, loving discussion on the topic.
I recently posted this to Mike but so far, he hasn't responded - you might be interested: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, the contradictions between those verses and the rest of the bible are instantly resolved. All that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faultly doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
@@JoanDArc77 you are missing something that is very key in understanding what is actually being said in 1 Cor 14:34. There is a reference to the LAW in this passage. Now would Paul EVER make a claim that women should subject themselves to the LAW? Of course not! So it is clear then, that in this passage, Paul is responding to an erroneous position previously presented to him regarding the desire of at least one man (maybe more) to silence the women in their public gatherings. And what is Paul's response? It is one of chastising incredulity. He says, "What! Did the word of God come originally to you? Or was it you only that it reached?" He then continues to explain in vs 37 & 38 that what he was writing was a commandment of the Lord and that this preposterous allegation & plea to Paul to silence women in the church was IGNORANT. So men that continue to subjugate women to the back of the bus in the church are disobeying a commandment of the Lord as posited by the Apostle Paul and have chosen ignorance over understanding.
@@wiznup You need to re-read those verses - you have them totally twisted. Paul is addressing an egalitarian church concerning issues surrounding the use/misuse of the Gifts of the Spirit. When Paul refers to the "Law" in vs34, he's merely referencing the OT and by saying "as the Law ALSO says, he's saying that wives taking a submissive role to their husbands also applies in the NT - which he confirms in vs37 with "what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord". The crux of his admonition is that wives should not teach or otherwise take authority over their own husbands - his intention was to keep marriages intact and prevent them from being undermined as in the garden of Eden where Satan successfully tempted Eve to take a leadership role on an issue that wasn't authorized by God. Unfortunately, due to the translation error, this verse is used to subjugate and silence ALL women regardless of marital status, and to place them in a subservient position to EVERY man in the church - which has nothing whatever to do with what Paul (or the Holy Spirit) actually said or intended.
@@JoanDArc77 we're going to have to agree to disagree. This is not my own teaching but comes from a father in the faith by the name of Kenneth Hagen and my spirit bares witness to what he teaches. And because he was not threatened by women in ministry he mentored and helped to pastor the teaching gift in Billy's Brim.
I’ve been listening to you since about mid January when I discovered you on a friend’s fb post. I began this year by reading through the Word, using a one year study plan. I have been a believer for 27 years, but you are the first person I’ve ever known to actually teach me HOW to study and think biblically. Thank you so much for allowing Father to use you to help me gain the “how to”! I am already seeing the fruits of your guidance. I’ve heard you announce several times that you were working on this series, and I am so thankful you have! Especially after listening to your series, “How To Find Jesus In the OT”, and several other podcasts...I am SO excited to be going through this series with you! Looking forward to gaining wisdom and insight on this much needed subject.
Hi Mike, Howard's wife Linda here, thank you so much for doing all the hard work on this issue. I was a child of the sixties, raised by a single mum, raging feminist, anti marriage. Then at 26 was saved and my world view was challeged, just a bit!! It is only in the last few years, as the rage has stilled, that confidence in the perfect design and peace which is gifted by our Father that I can look at this issue from a biblical perspective. Marrying was one such issue, now, finding my role as part of the body of Christ is the next. Thanks again!
Honestly, the whole idea of what you want to believe really spoke to me on a personal level. Even after just the first 20 minutes of this video, it was quite profound to the point where I felt a little bit called out. Thank You. Also, I appreciate how you emphasize this topic's secondary nature, as it makes everything seem a bit more comfortable at least for me. So often Christian debate gets caught up in things that are not vital to the faith itself, so this distinction is so helpful.
I do believe thatif MEN refuse to respond to God's call to ministry, then God will call women to the "job" . Biblical examples of women in leadership are very few (e.g. Deborah), I do believe that the Biblical IDEAL is for men to take the lead in ministry; but God's hands are not tied!
Pastor Winger, I appreciate your heart for understanding and teaching God's Word. Hope there will be more pastors who eagerly desire to be grounded in the truth 🙏
Great start Mike, this type of in-depth content is exactly why I subscribed to your channel in the first place. The Q&A sessions on Fridays are fine but due to the ad-hoc nature of them are necessarily somewhat shallow. These deep study videos on the other hand, this type of thorough dive into topics is what sets you apart from others. Keep it up!
I understand what you mean by the egalitarian assuming all men have all power over all women, but I think what their issue is that while all men may not be leaders all leaders must be men. So a woman’s authority over topic or expertise is ignored or not trusted. The other issue is that its not just different roles, its that women have less roles available to them so the effect is that women are viewed as less than men. I am exploring Christianity so while “dont bypass the bible” may make sense if the bible is already agreed upon, it just breaks my heart that I might feel called to a religion that views me less than a man. I understand you and the majority of complementarians dont think that, but I think thats the impact on the culture because its a question if what can women do and not what can men do and what can women do..cause men can do everything. I am not trying to be rude it just really brakes my heart because I dont think the men understand what we go through
God doesn't view you as less. Read the gospels and see how Jesus interacted with women. If you haven't done so already, listen to Mike Winger's "How to get saved" video and some if his "proof" videos on Jesus being raised from the dead. This topic about women in ministry is interesting (and hotly debated), but its importance pales in comparison to who Jesus is and what he did for you.
@@veritasmuy2407 I think Catherine F should focus on the truth of who Christ is, and what our response to God should be. Other aspects of scripture are secondary to this and should be played out with grace and humility, and with deference to other scriptures which include women in so many aspects of church life and gifting. Also, it seems like what exactly Jezebel is teaching in Revelation 2:18-22 is more of an issue that the fact that she is teaching.
Before watching the video: I’m a complementarian woman. I think woman can do anything but be a pastor (meaning she can witness to men, can be a theologian, can teach women and children, etc.) . I also think women should submit to their husbands decisions (obviously that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be debate/discussion between the husband and wife… just that the man is the final decision maker). I think those two issues relate to each other as the relationship between a husband and wife is an analogy to Christ and the church. This seems to fit the best with scripture. I have more detailed questions, so I am so excited for this series.
I agree. I know there is a lot more to come but I believe the Bible calls all Christians to be witnesses. Matthew 28:7 & 10 the women were the first ones told to go & tell that Christ is risen. I have spoken many times to congregations during services though I have no (man given) qualifications & many times I have received thanks & appreciation - to God be the glory! BUT my understanding of the Bible is that women have no spiritual authority over men. There is a big difference in teaching to being in a position that includes correction. I attend a church where the pastor is a woman so that makes this study even more relevant. Just to add to things that impact on my seeking is my husband is not a Christian but he is head of our home.
Can I ask an honest question? Why do you favor a "final say" version of authority instead of a "responsible for acting like Jesus first and creating a flourishing environment for everyone" version of authority? Matthew 20:26-28, Mark 10:43-45, philippians 2:5-8, 1 Corinthians 13:4, etc. For example, I have authority as a parent, but it's not to have the power and control and the final say, it's so I can guide and disciple my children and empower them to make their own wise and Christ-like decisions. It's my job to create an environment where they can thrive and grow in wisdom and stature. And sure, sometimes I have to make a choice for their good and their flourishing, but I don't define my authority that way. And even when I have to hold a boundary, it's not done by insisting they obey, it's done by figuring out how to support them and guide them toward Jesus. I see a husband's authority in the same way, but different because a woman is not a child. It's his responsibility as the head to reflect Jesus first, to lay himself down first, to seek the flourishing of others first, etc. And it's my job to submit to him and strive to do the same things first. His guide is Jesus and the fruits of the spirit and my guides are the same. I just have a hard time understanding why the lead/submit model is favored over mutual respect, problem solving, conflict resolution, and teamwork for the good of the whole family, with the wife looking to her husband's interests and the husband looking to his wife's interests, and them both looking to the interests of their children together as a partnership. And working things out through prayer and fasting when they can't agree, and working it out until they can. Maybe you can help me understand how you view the lead/submit model? Do you understand it differently?
@@nicoleparsons7630 I don’t disagree with anything you say. It seems like we are saying the same things. We both agree that both the man and woman have responsibilities in the relationship. As far as the children analogy, I would argue the authority parents have over their children is greater than the authority a husband has over his wife. So I’m not the biggest fan of that analogy… I’m not going to marry a man who treats me like a child (as you mentioned, the analogy isn’t perfect). :)
@Mila Nora that's fair. I didn't mean to imply at all that women are like children, so I'm sorry if that came across that way. I meant to give a more black and white example of authority as "responsibility" instead of "final say," a definition that I apply to any type of position of authority. So what's the difference between the complementarian lead/submit model and the egalitarian model of mutual respect I described above? Again, genuine question. ❤ Usually my husband do the research together and talk about the needs/ wants of our family and are able to make a decision together. We seriously consider each others thoughts and ideas and no one has a Trump card in their back pocket to end a disagreement. If a decision can't be made, the one who knows less/ has less at stake/ feels less strongly about it usually submits to the other. My husband is a very very generous person, to the point that it might seem "unwise" to some (we won't be millionaires by the time we retire 😅) He always prays and seeks the Holy Spirit and always looks to the needs of our family first, and we've made a lot of sacrifices because of his beautiful desire to give and serve others. In those rare instances that I disagree with his choice to give, he always shares his heart with grace and gentleness and love. He hears me out and takes my ideas into account. And if he still feels strongly even if I don't, i say, "i will trust your decision and your wisdom and I will support you in whatever capacity you need." I did days and days of research on parenting when our oldest was born. My husband did not. In those rare instances that I disagreed with a parenting choice, I would talk to him about it with gentleness and humility and kindness and show him what I was learning and listen with empathy and compassion. I would take his thoughts into account and seriously consider his perspective. And if i still felt strongly about it, he would say, "I trust your decision and your wisdom and I will support you in whatever capacity you need." And if we still can't agree after all that, we get pastoral counseling in good faith (that's happened maybe once?) This is not the lead/submit model I learned in my complementarian upbringing. Maybe my experience is not common? What are your thoughts?
@@nicoleparsons7630 can you please share resources that support your perspective on what authority means? It makes total sense to me and I’ve never heard anyone articulate it that way.
Thank you SO MUCH for talking about this. I’ve been looking forward to this series since June (or July or whenever you released that tiny clip about women in ministry). I appreciate your thoroughness and your determination to let the Bible dictate your thoughts rather than finding interpretations that you like and sticking with those. I have so much trust and respect for you because of that. (But don’t worry; I know you aren’t infallible, and I won’t just take your word on it. :) )
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 That is interesting, and I'll have to look into that. I can't say whether or not Mike has heard this argument (though I'd guess that he has if it's been recorded in any academic book about the subject), but I do know that he's aware of all the examples you've mentioned because he's spoken about them before, and I'm certain that he's planning on bringing up all the evidence you presented. I'm not completely convinced that a mistranslation solves the issue, however (though I could always be wrong). This indicates that an unmarried woman can speak in church while a married woman cannot, at least without her husband's permission. That doesn't make sense to me. A twenty-year-old single woman is rarely wiser than a fifty-year-old married woman. Why would the younger speak while the older remains silent? And if a woman's ministry must first be approved by her husband, then what about women who are married to unbelievers? (I know that 1 Peter 3 speaks about a wife's behavior to her unbelieving husband, but what happens to her work in the church if the husband doesn't approve?) What if a single woman was a leader in a church, then marries a man who doesn't give her permission to continue leading? What if the husband does give her permission? Wouldn't she then be usurping his authority by being a leader over him in the church? How is the husband supposed to know whether or not it is biblical to give his wife permission to have a leadership position in the first place? There has to be an answer to this biblically, or else the husband would be able to tell his wife what to do and what not to do without submitting himself to God. I'm sure you have answers to these, and I'd love to hear your thoughts if you don't mind.
@@rebeccab719 1st, the mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if Mike didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain it won't be mentioned in the other 9 - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be sure he's completely unaware of the problem with those verses - once the mistranslation is corrected, he won't need 10 videos to deal with this topic. 2nd, the only prohibition against married women is to not teach or otherwise take authority over their husbands, including speaking out against their opinions or doctrinal stances in front of the church - any issues between them should be worked out at home. 3rd, age has little to do with the issue, only God's call and particular anointing on someone's life matters - 1Tim4:12 says - "Let no one despise or think less of you because of your youth, but be an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, and in purity" and Acts2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall prophesy..." - the younger are obviously used by God to minister to an older generation. 3rd, there's indeed no restrictions on single women, such as myself, regarding any ministry or leadership roles in a church except to deliver God's word accurately and faithfully - if I ever planned to get married any issues about that would need to be resolved beforehand. 4th, if a wife takes a leadership role and the husband doesn't have one, it's understood that her authority doesn't extend over him, the same applies if she has a teaching role and he doesn't - it's understood that she's not using her position to teach him and he has full authority to prevent her from teaching something he doesn't agree with. Lastly, if the husband is unsaved he's not really in the loop regarding any control over what she feels called to do in a church unless she wants to submit for the purpose of placing him in the direct path of God who will then work on his heart. There are many nuances regarding all the various situations that might arise and each would need to be worked out on an individual basis.
SUPER EXCITED to soak up this series. Thank you for investing the time to study it and share what you learn. PLEASE make sure you address the topic from the perspective of single and abandoned women (women living the life of an aguna). How can a single adult woman be subject to her husband or ask her husband or even her father at home? Of course she can’t. How does merciless prejudice against her immutable designation as a woman, and rigid legalistic adherence to Paul’s pastoral letters fulfill the command for a man in church leadership to love his (single female) neighbor as himself? It doesn’t.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3-4, NKJV) If a women is helping save people they are helping achieve Gods will of saving as many people as possible. Some of the best teachers ive seen on youtube have been strong women.
Been wanting to get a true deep study & biblical interpretation fro Mike Winger on this!!! I’ve heard so much in the space & personably believe most pastors that share this have not put in the study time to really break it down. Praying the Holy Spirit reveals some fresh insights 🔥
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I am not on either side of this issue yet. I have a lot of questions, and the more I read and study the Bible I get more questions. I don't want to just pick a side, I want to know and follow God's word. So thank you for this series Mike, I hope my questions are answered. I appreciate you taking the time to study and teach on this topic.
@@mccalltrader Not really. People say that cause they are referring to a couple of verses. But when you study the early church, Genesis, the two roles in the church, Paul's letters and more, many questions arise. Some questions are needed for clarity. Thank you for your thoughts though and God bless.
@@thewoolpack I’m sorry friend, but that’s not true..we can play what if games all day, however, Paul is very clear about the role of a woman in church, and the book of Titus lays out criteria for church leadership, being a man is one of them. Drawing conclusions outside of the purview of the passages takes mental gymnastics to justify…both ways
@@mccalltrader Thank you for being respectful. Like I said some questions are for clarity. I just have some questions about all of this that I need answered. So I'm glad Mike is doing this series, should be good. God bless!
I love that I came across this video , I was just asking my dad about this and he was giving me alot of good scriptures, I'm so happy you are going to go into depth, and I ask for prayers so that I may be doing God's will and not mine
This has been a topic that I have been "struggling/wrangling" with this last year. I love apologetics and theology. I love a good healthy discussion about scripture. I also love to teach and show others how scripture intertwines and is a beautiful piece of artwork that only God could create for us. This topic of the place of a woman has never been a topic I paid attention to before, Likely because of our culture. But also because where our culture is now has made me more keenly aware that I could be off on views on this topic. I have been thinking about what is my role in the church. Have I been fulfilling my role? How could I better fulfill my role and set an example to my children? I appreciate that you are doing a series on this topic, because I could use some guidance on this.
Have you ever been to a site called Tru 3:16-the Eden Podcast. It trues up the scriptures from Gen 3:16 and gives lots of correct info about the genders and what God truly meant for men and women to be.
So excited for this series!!! I've been wanting to study this more for myself, because I know what my position is, but I want to be able to defend my stance with THE BIBLE, not just tradition.
This is the first time commenting on your videos, not because I have very strong views one way or the other but because you should know you have support. You comment about making people mad a lot lol, I wouldn't worry too much about them. I watch your videos because I have a desire to know the truth and I have learned over the last couple years, learning the truth sometimes requires challenging yourself and your presuppositions. I just wanna know the truth and I like your approach to a lot of these topics. I've always felt the Bible should trump personal feelings. Keep up the good work. Should also mention I came across your videos because red pen logic on Facebook mentioned you.
At my very conservative church, we regularly sing hymns written by women. I realize that this is fine and acceptable. Most of these hymns consist of essential doctrine. I just find it interesting, because I’ve yet to see a woman be asked to pray aloud. It’s just funny on what is considered appropriate within this body.
I have not been to any church yet that doesn't bypass the bible on some issue or another. There is constant debate and differences of interpretation in all churches. I have a feeling when we get to heaven that Jesus will smile and say that 90 percent of it wasn't all that important, and he just put it in there that way to keep us all engaged in constant thought and wonder. Of course, I'm not referring to biblical facts and truth. "Or am I" Could it be as simple as Love Jesus with all we have and are made of and love our neighbor as ourselves. If you really stop and think about it, think of any topic in the Bible that comes across your mind and ask yourself if it has multiple different thoughts, theories or answers. I believe when we get to heaven all our thoughts will be on one thing, and that is worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ.
The way so many things are today can get confusing and sometimes scary. I’m so glad you always point us to scripture. I have been a Christian for a very long time. It’s not until a few years ago that it seems woman pastors are everywhere. I have been wondering biblically was it ok? I will admit I was not comfortable with it probably because I wasn’t sure what the Bible actually said. I appreciate you taking the time to research and passing it to us. Thank you Mike for all you do. We appreciate you. God bless you.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
This topic will make you lose friends in the Church. We have a really hard time with this. I am a woman and truly believe that we cannot equally serve in the same capacity with men simply for the sake of order, not necessarily because we aren't capable. I think we have to be willing to see ourselves as God sees us and not how others want to see us. I know women that are pastors and don't find the need to disagree with them, but I would not submit myself to their shepherding, not as a lead pastor or Elder. I just don't see it in scripture. I am raising very strong girls. Strength doesn't mean a lack of boundaries. If anything, it was Christ's ability to pick His life back up and not doing it, that showed His true power.
Women submit outwardly by not preaching. But honestly within ourselves we pick and choose what to believe, whom to respect. Everyone does. We arnt computers who are programmed by a dude. We don't take downloads. We compute for ourselves.
Pastor Mike, as a woman I have been struggling with understanding these different positions biblically for a while. I am thrilled and very grateful that you have taken the time and effort to explain this biblically. I appreciate your ministry so much. You put so much thought and effort into your videos and are so careful with the interpretations of the scripture, it is a breath of fresh air to see and hear. I pray that God will continue to bless you and your ministry.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 you are NOT a pastor. 1Tim 2 (NKJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹¹ Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. ¹² And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. "God is simply & extremely clear on this" ~You need to repent.
@@pastortroy777 You're using circular reasoning. The issue is that I've shown that 1Tim2:11-15 is translated incorrectly- turning around and trying to use the mistranslated verse to prove your point is a fallacious argument. The truth is, the translation error I cited is 100% true and irrefutable - the Greek word "gune" should have been translated as "wife" instead of "woman" and it has no application to me whatsoever since I'm not a married woman.
@@pastortroy777 Research the Artemis cult at Ephesus which the Apostle Paul dealt with for several years. Between 100 and 200 hours of reading/listening plus more hours digging through garbage, you should have a very good idea WHY Paul writes what he did. It all has to do with the feminist superiority Artemis cult at Ephesus. You will then see that every word/sentence Paul writes about women is directly aimed at the crazy radical feminist cult of Artemis. You've heard of the Amazon women? Guess what? They are not merely a myth they existed and the Artemis cult at Ephesus was mostly built on their belief system & culture. Bible really opens up and shines forth the truth when see beyond one dimension with both eyes. Its beyond words and amazing doesn't come close to describing it. Praise be to God, Creator of Heaven & Earth.
I've been WAITING for you to cover this topic. It's one that I've been struggling with since I came to Christ two years ago. Looking forward to this study.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I’m excited for this series! I know you’ll approach it in a biblically solid way and I appreciate you said you wanted to be egalitarian but aren’t. I think most people especially women would love the Bible to be egalitarian because of the feminist culture we live. I personally think the Bible is clearly complemetarian but I’m open to hearing why the other side says otherwise. I know you’re coming with the receipts Mike! I’m really looking forward to hearing what you’ve found about head covering. I’ve been covering for about 5 months now, and I did a lot of research on both sides, for and against. I wanted to be against it honestly but in my findings I found the Bible supports women covering but it seems to be the unpopular opinion. Ultimately I decided to follow the Bible versus the culture. Like you said though, it’s not a salvation issue, but it’s something I think a lot of people come to with preconceived notions and rather just ignore it all together. Appreciate all your hard work and awesome content, thank you.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I appreciate your will to follow what gods word says. I still have ways to go. For example I struggle with the word "all your speech must be uplifting". I love bantering and it is a very common way of socializing as a man. And we don't see it as putting someone down. I don't know what precisely the Bible teaches on that topic and I don't have the will to find out. I have worse things impacting my life, but that is one topic which I'm pretty conflicted about. _PS. While reading I've noticed that your profile picture still has you without head covering._
@@philippbrogli779 Just remember what Jesus said in Mt12:36 - "But I tell you, on the day of judgment men will have to give account for every idle word they speak" P. S. I'm not a married woman - 1Cor11:5 about head coverings is also regarding wives. Christ is my only Head.
@@JoanDArc77 I will have to give account for a lot of idle words. But what I'm also don't know if that means if we have a family dinner we are either to be quiet or talk uplifting stuff. Anything not in those two categories is idle and therefor worth judging. That somehow feels wrong. It might just be me though as I'm a fallen human with a deceptive heart.
Ephesians 5: 22. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. .. Titus 2: 1. But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2. That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. 3. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4. That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5. To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. . . 1 Corinthians 14 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD... . . 1 Corinthians 11 . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
I literally wept when you listed the questions in the beginning, all the nuanced situations that women might find themselves in that so many people fail to consider. Just to hear a man, and a "soft complementarian" at that, talk about the confusion caused by disagreements in these things was healing in a way. I don't know how many times I was told by one leader in the church to take a leadership role and then told by another that I couldn't do the thing that logically followed. Or given the same position as a male coworker (speaking on a Wednesday night to youth) but having to call it "speaking" and not "teaching or preaching" even though my male counterpart "preached" in the same setting to the same audience. That confusion caused SO much hurt, and I think I embraced a "soft egalitarianism" because it gave me an across-the-board answer. I'm genuinely looking forward to hearing what sounds like a balanced, careful, and Biblically centered view, and I'll try my very best not to let the hurt color my understanding! Thank you, Pastor Mike!
I'm sorry you experienced so much hurt. It sounds like the situation you were in was chaotic and you got hurt as a result. Seek God and He will lift you up. God creates order and peace. I hope you find that as you seek Him.
I totally understand. This is such a painful subject for some of us. I'm hesitant to watch because any time I get into this topic it feels like ripping off a scab; BUT I do trust Pastor Mike to be fair, balanced, and Biblically minded so I will listen. Also, the "speaker" title always makes me cringe.
I love the way you worded that second to last statement. I hope the same for myself on all subjects. (But without anywhere near the pain on this topic you’ve had to deal with since I am a guy.)
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 That's interesting, but it sounds like the kind of thing that will probably get brought up in a later video. I'll be interested to see it.
This actually was the most anticipated series for me, Mike Winger,(such a brilliant teacher)brings every topic and nuance explored thoughtfully and Biblically. This is such a blessing! I am grateful for such a well researched, Biblical view and study.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@Thoska Brah Don't be so sure - an introductory video that doesn't include mentioning the translation error in the 2 verses that form the basis for excluding women from ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. No, you can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos aren't required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
It may be too late, because of her health, but I would love to know what Kay Arthur, of Precept Ministries, would say about her role in ministry. She gave us decades of incredible teaching!
She kept all her teaching under the suthority the Word of God. Her teaching was in no way usurping authority over men. Only those wanting to listen to her teaching would have listened. And been solidly instructed in the Word of God. I only took 1 Corinthians under her. She gently led me into understanding that cessationism is anti biblical. I will always be grateful to her. So sorry to hear she is unwell.
I knew it was time to leave a church when the pastor came to my house and in front of my pastor husband told me he wanted me to become his secret deacon. I was a deacon because I would do deacon things, but I had to keep it secret because it would upset some ppl because I'm a woman. I told him that I was honored but I couldn't accept because I had just done a study about this, as God had impressed it on my heart & I didn't feel women had this sort of roll to play in ministry. He said "what about Debra?" I told him, I'm so glad you mention Debra as an example of how God has to raise someone up when no one else is willing to stand. He allowed women to step in those rolls to humiliate the weak men who refused to stand & do the job. If I were to walk into your church and find a female deacon, I would think all the men in your church are too weak to lead & that would reflect poorly on you. I can't do it. Thank you though. I don't need a title to do what I' have been lead to do. I can just keep serving a long my husband without a title. I later found out that he had other secret female deacons. So glad we left that place, his wife was extremely controlling and toxic. She wanted to approve who i had over my own house. They would find out by other congregants that would drive by my house we had guests & call the pastor's wife on us. The pastor would then just show up to police us. I once made my friends a meal because he was getting his first dose of chemo in the neighboring state. I knew they'd get home exhausted. Somehow, they found out about this & the pastor's wife's secretary called me to yell at me because the pastor's wife liked to make the first meal and she was planning on taking them a meal 3 days from then. I had no idea she liked to make "the first meal" and I was just cooking extra food and taking some down the street for 2 friends. I wasn't in a "meal train" I had never even heard of meal trains. When I made the meal, they hadn't made a meal train. The secretary tried to bully me into not taking the meal over there. I took it anyway. Those are just some examples of the control and lunatic behavior. there are way more. No one stays that church for more than 2 years. I'm so grateful my husband decided to step down from ministry left that place. The pastor at that church used positions of leadership to control ppl & to keep them in the awful place, that is that church. Anytime ppl would be ready to leave there suddenly the husband was made an elder and the wife was made a secret deacon. I hate saying this, but often times, women are more concerned with a leadership position (with their ego) than with God, Himself. Men too obviously but clearly on this subject, feelings and positions are more important for egalitarians than God's Word.
This is a purely rabbinical view that has been allowed in the church. They debased women in the oral law(Halacha) bc the carnal rabbis blamed sin on the woman. Paul always backed women as teachers & leaders in the church. The exiled Israelites in Babylon used the creation order to dominate the women. The biblical role for men is based on these verses: Eph. 5:23 “For the husband is the HEAD of the wife as Christ is the HEAD of the church,his body.” 1Cor. 11:3 “The HEAD of every man is Christ and the HEAD of the woman is man, and the HEAD of Christ is God.” The meaning of these verses rests on the Greek word KEPHALE which is translated HEAD in the N.T. Did it mean superior to or one having authority in Ancient Greek? Lexicographers Liddel, Scott, Jones and McKenzie ( A Greek- English Lexicon givs no evidence of such a meaning. The Septuagint translators used different words than HEAD (KEPHALE) when the Hebrew word for HEAD implied superior to or authority over. Those translators of the Hebrew O.T. Into Greek used the word ARCHON or other words when the Hebrew word for HEAD carried the idea of leader, ruler or authority. Kephale is rarely used when Hebrew word ROSH translates as superior rank. 1Cor. 11:3 KEPHALE means the Greek concept of source, origin. Christ is the ORIGIN of man; man, ORIGIN of woman; God, origin of Christ. Paul shows he was not imputing authority to males by his statement “ As woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.” 1Cor. 11:12
Unfortunately your testimony is all to common. Great job in keeping your perspective. I know a few Deconesses (non-secret) that are the very active wife of Deacon's. Is that what is used in your new church? God's will is the way.
I have a sister who says she is a minister- . I grew up in a church were women operated in the roles of Preachers, pastors, evangelist , teachers, ministers, etc. It was never discussed or brought up about what the bible says/ said about women in these roles!! I personally want to think biblically about these matters. So thank you for all your time and research. God bless you!!!
Karen, I believe many if not most of us have had similar experiences, but I appreciate your desire to think biblically! Because of God making us a new creation with a desire to love and obey him, we want to follow His word, and not just lean on experience. I honor hold to a complimentarian view but that has not always been the case, and I have women in my family who I love dearly, who hold roles in which they should not. I don’t make it an issue, and continue to love them and be respectful. :)
Exactly!!!! In the church I grew up in - women have always been in ministry just like the men!!! Never questioned it, Never heard anyone teach in the church about it it was the "norm".
Karen I would recommend reading the book of Titus. Paul outlines the requirements for the church leaders in this epistle. You do not need Mike to tell you. He sent Paul to teach us these things. I am sorry you were raised in a church that turned from Paul. However, you seem to have a good heart and I really think you have the ability to read this epistle and understand the truth
Complimentarianism has a “separate but equal” feel to it that has lots of people running to be egalitarian. It isn’t that it’s wrong or bad to hold a submissive roll but that specific people can ONLY have that roll based solely on something out of their control, how they were born. Although, I agree with Mike that this is a biased assumption, even just an ick feeling, that is brought in before reading the Bible.
That's a tough topic. God Bless you and give you wisdom in it. No matter which side of the argument you support you're going to have people who don't hold it as a secondary issue like you said. For them its a primary issue and they're going to in true cultural fashion give you hate for not agreeing with them.
Props to you on diving into such a culturally taboo issue and especially doing it with love and respect… really looking forward to this series. God bless man, keep it up!
One thing that I was hoping will be covered also is how the Bible guides single women to submit in the church when we have no husband (divorced and never married) for a 'covering'.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I've only gotten halfway through this video; sorry, it's very long. It seems like your basic premise is the Bible is perfect and inerrant, and whatever it says overrides our personal relationship with God. You say at one point something like if a woman feels called by God to serve in ministry, but the Bible says no you can't, then you (the woman who feels called) is wrong and misinterpreting what you feel because if the Bible says no, so God would never call you. That is a wrong presumption to start with. God can call anyone at any time to do anything, regardless what is written in the Bible. The Bible is a collection of books written down by men to record their spiritual experiences, and it is not perfect. Humans make mistakes, and there are clearly mistakes in the Bible. Many translations have different versions of what the scripture is; they cannot all be correct. Even looking at the stories by the different Apostles as to their witness of Christ's teachings vary in what happened, when, and how. To say the Bible has authority over our lives above and beyond what God calls us to do today, here and now, is wrong. Our personal relationship with God / Jesus the Holy Spirit is what outweighs all else, not the Bible. If all the Bibles disappeared tomorrow, God would still exist. The Bible is not God. It is His word written down as best as humans could manage it, and we've gotten a lot of things wrong over the centuries. It is an excellent guide to help us understand what God wants from us, but it is a starting place only, not the end of all discussion and possibilities. God works through us still in today's world. To say that a woman cannot be called to serve in ministry by God because of what the Bible says is misguided at best, and harmful at worst. You're guiding people - in this case, women - away from what God is instructing them to do. We should listen to God first and the Bible second. The Bible is helpful, but not perfect. Do not mistake the Bible for God. God gave us free will, which means humans can mess up anything, including translating the Bible. If God speaks to someone directly, He is the authority we must hear and obey. You clearly care about doing the right thing, and it is hard to know what that is these days. I did enjoy what I heard of this video, but it's late and I need to sleep. Peace.
Mike, I love, love, love this series! One of your other videos, can't recall which one, showed up in my recommended a couple months ago, and after watching a few others, I subscribed. I absolutely love your deep dives! I love that you honor scripture above all, and are seeking to "rightly divide it"--even if that entails having to change your views. You apologize often for how lengthy some of your videos are, but I for one appreciate them! Any serious student of the bible would. You do a superb job showing both sides in this particular series and again, I appreciate that. Be encouraged brother! We need leaders like you who are not afraid of the culture, who are willing to teach the true word of God in humility, which I think you do, but with courage and boldness. I will be praying for you, your ministry, and your family! Sorry for such a long comment.
Thank you so much for doing this series! As a complementarian woman who used to be egalitarian, this issue makes walking with Christ sometimes seems like tiptoeing through a minefield. I just want to please God, but there are so many verses on this topic and so many different opinions from so many different people and it can be hard to understand. People can also be incredibly rude from both sides. I’ve had people call me a legalistic misogynist before and I’ve had random guys say super sexist things like that I have to submit to them because of my gender and a woman’s whole purpose is to be a servant to men. I’m excited to hear a more balanced view and take some more time to ascertain what the Bible says on the matter.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 He hasn’t covered those topics yet. He will in other videos. Could you wait until he puts them out before you explain your beef with them please? All this at once is too much. Especially when everyone has a different interpretation and line of argumentation that seems valid until another person comes and contradicts them.
@@katethegreat4918 An introductory video that doesn't mention the major translation error in the 2 verses which are at the heart of excluding women from ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's a complementarian (at 11:00) You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos wouldn't be required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
@@JoanDArc77 I don’t want to be rude, but you come across as a very angry person with an agenda to make the Bible fit into your predetermined view. It’s very easy to be hurt by people who misuse the Bible and to be offended with what the Bible has to say. If you would just let your guard down and trust the God who made you and loves you, maybe you could allow it to speak for itself. God does not hate women; He loves women. He’s not a misogynist no matter what conclusion you come to. GOD IS NOT AGAINST YOU. It’s okay to just listen to what He has to say. Watch the series. If you have more knowledge, wisdom, or understanding about a specific verse, you can share it when it’s covered. Dismissing people’s thoughts on the topic because you have an idea of the conclusions they’ve come to before hearing what they have to say isn’t helping anyone. You wouldn’t want Mike Winger, me, or anyone else to do that to you. Remember, one of the fruits of the Spirit is patience.
Exactly! I believe what the Bible says. We are smart and capable of doing great things as women but God wanted his church to have a certain way of operating. And it wasn’t because women were “less than”. But people in the “left” of this go nuts and call you misogynistic and sexist while people on the “right” have dangerous control freak red flags because they are heavy on the “I want you to submit to me” part but don’t actually act worthy of any respectable “submission”
For what it's worth, I think you misread the passage you quoted at 31:12 ("There is no area in which a woman has any authority, privilege or opportunity that a man is denied") You seem to interpret that as her saying that a man has complete authority over every aspect of a woman's life, and she has none. But that's not how I heard it at all. It sounded to me like she was saying that in the Venn diagram of opportunities, privileges, and areas of authority men and women have, the woman's circle is entirely subsumed by the man's- there are plenty of things that are for men only, but nothing that is only for women. Maybe there was further explanation in the book that led you to your conclusion, but based solely on that quote, that's how I understood it.
I started dating my girlfriend a year ago and began attending her church regularly. Coming from a complimentarian church, I was shocked to see a female pastor preach on a Sunday morning one service. I learned that there are a number of female pastors on staff, but the head pastor is a man. I wanted to hear the head pastor’s reasoning for this, being full willing to change my views should he show me biblical evidence, so I came into his office one morning and asked why he was egalitarian. He said he isn’t egalitarian, he’s complimentarian. That confused me. He went on to say that he refuses to call members that make the decisions for the church “elders,” because there are women on the board. Apparently this was his attempt to be biblical. To me, it seems like creating loopholes around scripture. Now I’m in a dilemma about whether or not I should continue attending. I don’t have another church and my girlfriend grew up at this church, so I can’t just ask her to leave. I’ve gotten more out of this church than I have at the church I grew up in for 19 years. I really don’t know what the right answer is. I’m hoping this series will give me some good insight and wisdom on how to approach this delicate topic.
I think you have answered your own question. “You’ve gotten more out of this church than your other church of 19 years”. You will not find a church that is 100% biblical in their teaching. The Bible is very complex. As Mike has said this is a secondary issue, if you are growing and learning in your church that is your answer. Prayers for answers on your journey.
I partially agree with Pauline, though I want to emphasize the importance again of seeking God’s word. Elders are there to steer the church. The quality of a church is a reflection of it’s leadership. Keep this in mind. Not saying you should leave the church, but stick to the biblical view at least in your heart I think
I agree with Christian Bell; perhaps bringing up a case for the importance of elders in the church utilizing scripture to the Head Pastor. The outcome of that interaction can give you a clearer view of what has priority.
You just said that the head pastor is sticking his head in the sand so he doesnt have to confront the scripture that tells him hes wrong. How do you know anything else they are teaching you is from the bible? How do you know they arent misleading you on other things? You already know how he handles things he doesnt like.
What's clear from the introduction is how all of the "world" systems that God's people have bought into have complicated things so drastically. There is a lot missed because the Spirit of God is not allowed to lead. He leads by His Word, but He can also do whatever He pleases and use whomever He wants. The key for the believer is to be willing to hear God's voice through, Balam, his donkey, a woman, or a man. The key also for every believer is to follow the Spirit of God in your own ministry. He gives the gifts, and He leads. And for all who are willing, reading His word with an honest heart, and ready to quickly obey, He will lead faithfully.
Hi Pastor Mike. This is my first-ever comment on any TH-cam video. I have a lot of appreciation and respect for you and your ministry. I’ve watched most of your videos and appreciate your thoughtfulness in approaching Scripture, your steady posture of submission to God’s Word, and your apparent care for your listeners as people. I’ve looked forward to this teaching series since you first announced you were researching the topic, and I’m eager to hear how your processing develops through the following videos. I’m an unmarried female worker, serving in Bible translation in a third-world country, where my role includes helping a team of male translators understand Scripture so that they can translate it accurately into their own language. I grew up strongly complementarian, and as long as I can remember, I’ve seen great beauty in submission (though it can be hard in practice). During my seminary studies in preparation for the mission field, I pushed back against a theology professor who challenged my complementarian perspective of women in church leadership. That turned into an intermittent year-long dialogue with him, conversations with 50+ people (mainly instructors and fellow students), and months of intense scholarly research, topped off with a 40-page research paper… just to help my own memory when I would inevitably forget the arguments down the line. I needed to try to understand the issues more deeply, because the implications for my life and ministry were/are significant, and I am committed to submitting to what Scripture says on the issue. Like you, I found that there are heated emotions and many bad arguments from both sides. But I eventually landed on a nuanced understanding of Scripture, where I’m firmly “complementarian” with regard to marriage relationships but “egalitarian” with regard to roles in the local church and ministry. My understanding of 1 Corinthians 11 was fundamental to that conclusion (sort of along the lines of Anthony Thiselton’s view in his commentary on the text). My professor’s stance is that my position is untenable - that I can’t straddle between the two “camps” - but that is where I’ve been settled for the past few years. I don’t see any way to budge on my complementarian understanding of marriage roles in Scripture, so I can’t see that I’d ever become fully egalitarian. But I do see in Scripture a leveling of gender-based hierarchy in the church, with significant implications and applications for life and ministry. Still, I am open to learning more. All that to say: Thank you for setting apart the time to dig into these issues, and I look forward to your coming videos. May God guide your understanding and your words, and may you be encouraged in your ministry. Grace and peace to you from a fellow servant in Christ.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
When we give the authority to only men to be able to teach the Bible, we are not obeying Jesus commission and denying the power of the Holy Spirit to illuminate women in the Words of God and the ability to teach it. You remove the image creation that God created both, man and woman in His image and gave the intelligence and qualities to both alike. I ‘m willing to hear both, man and woman who teach the Gospel of salvation because they are sent for my spiritual growth. What is important is to be able to discern what they are teaching, many men teachers teach wrong doctrines , and thousands believe them, so, it is not the sex of the teacher but what it is preached that should be judged .
I can always depend on Mike Winger to flush out cultural hot topics and study God's Word in order to find what more closely aligns with the Bible, BUT in a loving manner.
This is easily my biggest struggle with Scripture right now. Pastor Mike, the fact that you have released this is a true blessing, and I thank the Lord for your ministry.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@borisvandruff7532 I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I’m really interested in hearing your perspective on head coverings. I agree that we shouldn’t bypass scripture, but why is it okay to bypass the passage about head coverings (a gendered passage), and the passage about elders being required to have obedient / believing children, but not others? Genuinely asking.
Hi! I don’t know Pastor Mike’s perspective and I’d also be interested in hearing it, but to my understanding head coverings were something specific to that culture. If we wore head coverings now, it wouldn’t have the same meanings that it held then. Kind of like [not eating] food sacrificed to idols. That whole topic is mentioned a bunch but we hardly see that in our current culture. When we have cultural topics in the Bible, instead of applying those specific culture rules (for lack of a better word), we take away and apply the overall principles. So for [not eating] food sacrificed idols the principle is to love your neighbor. Don’t cause them to stumble in their beliefs even if something doesn’t mean anything to us. As far as head coverings go, the overall principle is modesty, love, and respect for God and our husbands. (Haven’t read that passage in awhile so I’m just using my memory… something like that though). I’m pretty sure it was also about not doing what pagan women were doing at that time (I.e. not covering their heads/ shaving their heads). Hope that helps!
This is so simple ! In 1 Cor ch 11, the ONLY covering mentioned for a woman's head is her hair ! There is no mention of hats ! Whatever you are taught in church, study the Bible in prayer (Prov 2:1-6) to see if it is correct, establish doctrine by reasoning logically from the scripture (Acts 17:2). Do not accept theologically imposed interpretations ! Do not add to God's Word ! (Prov 30:5,6)
I am really looking forward to this series. As a woman who has been labeled as blunt and outspoken, it has been difficult feeling called to teach others about Jesus. I want to serve the Lord the way He designed me to, and this topic has really hindered me and kept me from sharing my faith. I honestly want to follow the Lord authentically regardless and to finally have a better understanding of this! So, thank you so very much for diving into this topic!
I recently posted this to Mike and considering your own personal challenges with this issue, you might be interested: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor11:5 exhorting them to pray or prophesy publicly with a head covering, and in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected in those 2 verses, all the contradictions with other scriptures instantly ceases - all that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses along with others that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine that subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and to many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
Woman can lead in the Bible. I have tons of materials on this if you would like me to send it to you. I always appreciate someone debating something but as a woman you can preach and teach 100%
I read a book years ago called "Left Brain, Right Brain" which was about the findings of scientists while studying mostly split-brained patients, who are people who have had their corpus callosum cut so that the left and right halves of their brain could not communicate through it. There was a chapter about differences in the brain that are effected by testosterone and estrogen. One of the things they brought out is that women have thicker corpus callosums and use both halves of their brain moreso then men. They found this helped women to think things through more thoroughly but also made it take longer to come to a decision and more often then men would not be able to decide. Men could come to conclusion more easily but were more prone to jumping to wrong conclusions. To me this makes at least one aspect clear. Men are natural decision makers and therefore leaders. While women are natural advisors. I've also studied personality differences. We are shaped some by environment or genetics, but there definitely is a wild-card factor in what basic personality we get. And I think this boils down in part to ....well let me give the illustration of how different computers are built to handle certain tasks better, some better for data access would be not a good fit for a graphics heavy use. Likewise, our minds have software and hardware that prioritizes brain function differently. Some of these are tied to gender. And this again came up in the Left Brain, Right Brain book. They found that certain functions did better with a mid-range of testosterone, and others with high estrogen. So that men with less testosterone hit that mid range and women with high testosterone hit that mid range. (Research was still ongoing and there could very well also be abilities that do better with less estrogen or whatever.) While overall men and women, the higher the estrogen, the better in those areas it was tied to. It isn't an all or none scenerio, but a range scenario. Everybody has testosterone and estrogen but our ranges differ along with resulting abilities. This results in humanity being able to accomplish many different things. It provides both flexibility and specialization. It's like the difference between only having a swiss army knife or instead having a workshop with many varieties of tools for different purposes. And of these, men and women are the first subsets of specialization.
@@brucetenhave6952 i wish i could remember, i found it in the science section and it had a red-orange cover, that's as far as my memory goes for the book cover though, and I'm bad at remembering names. I tried looking it up again and there are a number of similarly named books, I'm not 100% sure (I'd have to be able to read parts again) but I think it may be the one by James Iaccino.
This makes so much sense I really like it. Biblically women do have to submit to their husbands unless it’s a bad and unGodly decision. We are to advise our husbands as well and they make decisions based on that. It should be a team not a dictatorship. Women are not powerless in a marriage either.
I wish there were a study even remotely close to this in german. I realized how often the problem of bypassing the Bibel is actually present in the discussions here. I am excited about the series!
@@gigahorse1475 Sure, but having short clips is not really the problem. The problem is, that there is no big in-depth bible study like this series. I mean, there is some stuff, but at some point, there is one of these bypasses included.
Thank you Pastor Winger for being faithful to God's Word and not making concessions to culture and the world. You are very needed in these hours of history.
Thank you so much for taking on this subject. I am a female and have been in a few different leadership roles, children ministry, women's ministry, youth ministry and outreach. I have been told that I have a gift of teaching and have wanted to study deeper and share what I find so much about God, with others but have struggled so much with both sides of the debate about women in ministry that I have held back. I have a burning desire to share Gods word, but I don't want to be in disobedience to Him either. Thank you for taking the time and going through with the attitude of 'let scripture be scripture.' so I know I can trust as I go through this study with you. Thank you all the way from Australia 🦘🌏
Kay, be careful: there's a difference between the Bible original texts and what people interested in misogyny mistranslate. Women in the Bible were appointed to every rank a man was: deacon, priest, bishop, apostle, etc. Women being in ordained ministry *is* Biblical. Think about it: Iounnia was an apostle; Phoebe a deaconness; Mary Magdalene a disciple; and we have several women referred to as "priest" in the female form. And now think of this: the first person to teach the letter of Paul to the Romans was the very same woman who delivered the letter to them: the deaconess Phoebe. In antiquity, delivering a letter meant reading and explaining it. So, if you feel called by God to teach, you're in your Biblical rights to do so.
I don't think we can disregard History including Jewish History in this matter. Miriam was mentioned as a leader to the people of Israel alongside Moses and Aaron, Deborah was a Judge appointed by God as a leader of the Jewish people. everyone went to her to be lead, both men and women. Also whi would God give someone a teaching gift if it was for them to be quiet? It's dangerous to pick and chose which Bible texts we look at to weight in on a matter, we don't know the context of Paul's teachings at the time but we do know that God doesn't have a double mind. If He anointed Deborah he can anoint a woman today too, plus He made a donkey talk! How can we ever doubt that He does as he pleases and uses whomever he wants?
@@dstv1016 Pretty sure you just don't know Greek. That's her name (you might see it in English as June, Junia, or even Jounias, but the proper way to render it is Iounnia). She is named in Romans 16.7
Bless you, sister. I'm about to watch the rest of this series as well. Starting with the attitude of following God's will is the best foundation. I refused to submit to God out of personal pride but God has humbled me and my life has improved in so many ways. My wife is traditional and I was not living up to my duties as her husband which caused her distress and me dissatisfaction. Now I consider her so much more in everything I do and we're both happier together.
Thank you so much! This series is so refreshing! I've grown up around people who have shamed me for not understanding this content, so having someone take the time to go through and answer all of these questions is amazing!
Thank you very much Mike - It is such a topical subject but as Christians, our starting point should always be His word. There is too much ‘thinking out of the box’ today, which is code for “the way I want things to be”. God bless as the series continues and love from us here.
I know I'm 2 months late to this lesson. Lol, but I just wanted to say Thank You for this. I have been looking for an indepth study/lecture on this topic. Just because as a woman, I have been confused by this topic. Feeling like I'm being pulled in two directions. I want to be a Egalitarian but feel pulled to be more Contrarian. Thank you so much for this.
Dr. Groothuis is pronounced “Growt-hice” (I think)
I’m sorry I got it wrong!
We forgive you mike
I would also love your perspective on the passage about men and women prophesying in the end times. This verse is used in my church as a supporting verse for women in ministry. Hopefully you will cover it!
I was baptized as I knew that Jesus Christ forgives all my sins but at that time was living in sin but wanted to get out of it and many months later by the power of Holy Spirit I was out of it also I thought that in God there will be no problems in my life but after growing in Christ I found that there will be problems in my life but Holy Spirit will guide me and help me .
So my question is that shall I be rebaptised due to sin at that time and incomplete theology ?
@@elitabilities8269 If you are not baptized by a holy disciple of Christ you will be partaking in the sins and wrongdoings of the Pastor in twice the measure. Hence, check the man who baptize you for: is his spirit from God ? Does he continue in the word of Jesus according to John 8:31? Is his righteousness above that of Pharisees and scribes according to Mathew 5:19?Is he recognized by Jesus as His trained disciple according to John 17:16?
Groothuis - in Afrikaans, or Dutch, would be Bighouse, or Greathouse. Phonetically I don't think you should worry too much since it would be like asking an English speaker to pronounce French surnames absolutely correctly every time. Groot - as in the now famous "I am Groot" from the marvel movies, or a tree root, would have been fine, and Huis - phonetically - like army "base" but with the "h" - so Groothase and you are there. Either way - great job!
Great work, Mike! Really looking forward to listening to the rest of the series.
Hey Alisa, nice to hear Mike's respect for you and your ministry. I am very blessed by your content. Please keep going!!! Love in Christ!
I recently posted this to Mike but haven't received a response yet - you might be interested:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, the contradictions between those verses and the rest of the bible are instantly resolved. All that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes such damage to the church and to many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
Me too
WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH....
NO ONE I MEAN NO COULD TOUCH THE ARK...
EVERYONE WHO TOUCHED IT DIED..
@@JoanDArc77 absolutely, as well a female apostle is mentioned in the NT long with women prophesying, teaching a man, and let's not forget Deborah led the whole nation of Israel!
"You cannot bypass the Bible." - That's the takeaway for me. I find in most issues where there is debate, people are doing just that....bypassing the Bible and appealing to some other authority.
I wonder if these "Egalitarians" (funny term for saying my ideas are better then Gds) have ever read Titus or if they just skip that epistle. Paul clearly outlines the requirements for leadership
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@miikatmp5873The mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if he didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain they won't be mentioned in the other 9 - most likely he's completely unaware of it. And what "paradox" are you referring to?
@@miikatmp5873 I reported Joan. I'm tired of seeing her/his post on every single thread as if that opinion is canonized text!
@@JoanDArc77 that was a fair take, interesting. Everyone bashing you, please forgive them.
"This video series is for people who want to submit to God, so that's the price of entry."
Such a beautiful statement! Come seeking God not justification for your veiws. Sooooo good!! I'm mostly complementarian but I am here to learn and grow and unafraid to follow the truth the best I can. Both sides can do this, it is just a simple decision of your heart to trust God more than yourself. Thank you Pastor Mike!!
Ah there is the rub, self - justification we are often very good at it, and it gives us a warm feeling to be right.
@@glennbaker7914 what does that mean lol?
Control freaks always say that ... And it's not god who keeps wanting to make a hierarchy of humans. That would be men, who want to be on top while women are on the bottom. Anytime you see anyone telling women they need to sit down and shut up while the men are not, that is from the devil. Repent now, cos you gonna burn. The problem is, there's only bible. Yet so many different churches have a billion different interpretations and they're all claiming they alone have the One True Voice of God in their ear. If all of you can't come to an agreement, then... something is wrong with "christians".
@@Sirkento It means that it only feels true to you, because you want it to be true. Humans are very much subject to bias, and not everyone has the same experiences as you.
@@iMidnightStorm so by that logic you are basically saying there is no empirical truth and no point in striving towards it. That doesn't make any logical sense so this sounds more like an attempt to evade a knowledge of the truth, which everyone has the right to do with their life. But unfortunately it will not change the empirical truth and at some point everyone will have to decide what they want to believe and who they want to follow. There is a lot of Truth to the idea that we were very good at self-justification and invent ideas via bias but it does not exclude us from attempting to follow the ideals set before us nor do our biases in any way affect empirical truths. The point of what I was saying is God is out there and he loves us and he wants us to genuinely follow him but it is up to the discipline and humility of each person individually to decide to try to follow what he says and not just follow the things that sound good and make them feel good. If you don't already have a relationship with Jesus you should hit him up; there is literally nothing else that you were made better to do in all of creation and there is nothing that can ever adequately replace your need to have an eternal relationship with our creator. As a final note I don't care how bad you've been, what you've done wrong in secret that no one is found out about oh, what you have thought about or how badly you may look at yourself; you will never be too far gone to turn around and embrace your savior and accept his forgiveness except after the end of your life.
This sort of series is why I trust Mike so much. He is not afraid to change his mind to agree with Scripture. That is where we all should try to be.
he still thinks the sun doesn't go around the earth
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr see yourself as the center, and all moves around you.
Saying this moves around that is kind of absurd. Everything goes around everything. And the math works out the same, just more complex, depending.
@@yury2749 And there it is. The philosophy of why you don't want the earth at the center. It's not humble enough. Nevermind that it's the truth! We must avoid it at all costs, philosophically. Edwin Hubble agrees! No matter how convoluted, never allow the earth to be at the center. That implies a God after all.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr what is at the center is a matter of perspective. I am not sure I follow your meaning exactly. But we are putting grammar onto entities that follow something far higher and more tangible than physics equations.
I am at the center, but I do my best to orbit christ.
@Thomas B It's true, I think I saw a quote by Einstein that it would be equally correct to say the sun goes around the earth as the earth goes around the sun. It's basically like they're admitting it. Even in their convoluted theories, the sun can still be going around the earth! And it is.
Can't put into words how refreshing it is to hear a pastor that doesn't submit to culture. I know it's certainly not the easy road! Thank you. 🙏
Does the Bible teach that the present culture’s belief overturn the word of God? The majority of the Roman Catholic Churches beliefs are based on tradition and not the word of God. What sparked Luther’s reformation?
Two things to remember: only dead fish swim with the current, and the only direction all the easy paths lead is down.
Look deeper into translation choices of words. And, no,being a second class citizen is not ok. I don’t believe Paul believed it, but the translators who worshipped at Aristotle’s feet did. Translators can really put a spin on things and so can taking things out of context. God did not make women second class, men did that. Like the word “ helpmeet” in Genesis translated “ally” when discussing King Hiram, King. David’s friend. Why isn’t he a little helpmeet? You were wrong about blacks and slavery and you are wrong about this too. I will join no church rather than be a member of yours.
@@jumperstartful the comment was that culture is not the final word. Me must conform our ways, and our views to truth ( Gods wisdom ). The Catholic Church was not and still in many ways IS not in truth. Reformation came from a biblical and true analysis of the word of God.
Culture for almost all history has been very restrictive of women. To avoid "bowing to culture" one must abandon this entitlement mentality for males. God is no respecter of persons, and judges by the heart rather than the flesh.
A head of household abusing their family isn't an issue attributed to scripture interpretation; it's just evil.
Yes, amen.
Sadly, many churches have distorted the idea of male leadership so much that their teaching enables and encourages that kind of abuse.
I'm a staunch complementarian, but I've seen this situation play out first-hand.
Especially poignant comment with the whole John MacAurthur/David Gray scandal that just broke.
Maybe try reading the Bible before commenting. The Bible tells men to honor their wives and lay down their lives for them. Doing otherwise, such as abusing the wife and family, is obviously a sin bc it is doing the opposite of what the Bible says.
Yes it is. It is prohibited. Please Spend less time egotistically emoting and more time studying the scripture..
@@michaelgilroy1096 I think you’ve misread the comment. I believe this person means that other people (people who likely haven’t read the Bible) say that husbands abusing their wives and treating them like property is because the Bible says men are the head and women are to be submissive however we (yourself and the original commenter included) who actually read the Bible can agree that abuse of the wife and children by the husband is contrary to what scripture says because of the command for the husband to love the wife as Christ loved the church and other scripture guidelines for how a husband should treat his wife and manage his household.
"I want the Bible to breath..." great line. That speaks!!!
That was such a great line! I agree 🔥
Hey! Another Jackel/Jaekel! Hi. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. My Jäckel (Jaeckel) ancestors (Erdmann, and his son Herman), came from Germany (East Prussia, now part of Poland) in the 1840s, to the Barossa Valley, and the town, Tanunda, in the state of South Australia. After his wife, Johanna, died, in the early 1850s, Erdmann moved to Melbourne, in the state of Victoria, with his children, Herman and Louise (pronounced Louisa). He remarried and they had a daughter. Both daughters married Germans. Herman married an English woman, Phoebe Allen, and they had 5 sons and 3 daughters (one died at age 5yo). All the best.
When I was 22yo I legally changed my surname spelling to "Jaekel" by deed poll. My father wasn't happy! But people did pronounce it correctly: 'jay-kell' and not 'jackal'. 2-3 years later I really got into family history and genealogy and decided to change the spelling back to "Jackel", given that was one of the family lines I was researching.
The Bible doesnt need to "breathe"
I think you missed the point. Let the scripture speak is solid.
"There is a large debate among scholars"
I've always said it takes at least a masters, if not a PHD to figure out how to get the Bible to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says.
yep. it's fascinating how many "scholars" and debate it takes to understand god's "perfect" word. almost like it's just a bunch of word salad that you have to push through mental gymnastics to get it to say what you want it to say.
I have a history of putting "scholars" (biblical and not) in their place with facts. It seems we have gotten away with critical thinking in school and just straight indoctrination of the teacher believes.
No there's debate because people who study it to the point of the history and context starts to take place. Or the context within language. And you and I having not studied that never had to look beyond that, same way people back in the day didn't have an education and you had to trust your pastor OR go learn... Crazy ik
@@Shakiahjprod except Paul makes it very clear it has to do with the creative order and the inherent weakness in the nature of man or woman.
So those arguments are independent of culture and the times. But yes, culture and societal norms of the time is the argument they like to use, which is completely inappropriate in the actual context of what was written.
The complete disaster we are witnessing in society and the church as we've accepted the feminist ideology of our times is proof of the validity of the text and the dishonesty of their "intellectual" arguments.
But like l said, they have to use such dishonest arguments to make the Biblical text to mean the opposite of what it actually says.
I laugh because it's true 🤣
Man, that whole "bypassing the Bible" concept, by itself has challenged me so much!!! WOW!! This really helps think about this topic in a more measured way, cos it instantly picks out where our sources come from.
Yes this I agree with! I see this a lot with some peoples opinions on how/whether the Holy Spirit works today and some views clearly bypass the Bible and it’s sad. I pray God helps us see the right way!
We shouldn't bypass the bible.. we should support slavery and mass genocide.
Pastor Mike, as a Christian woman who has very much struggled with these issues (wanting to be egalitarian as well) I can’t tell you how incredibly thankful I am for your voice presenting a loving, thorough, Bible-centered, nuanced approach to these issues. This series is SO helpful and I know it’s not the popular subject to tackle but it has really helped me understand these issues for myself. Thank you!!!
The Bible isn’t nuanced in this issue; it’s clear, plain, and understandable. The “nuance” comes out when people don’t like what God says on a given subject.
Have you ever been to a site called Tru 3:16-the Eden Podcast. It trues up the scriptures from Gen 3:16 and gives lots of correct info about the genders and what God truly meant for men and women to be. very enlightening and eye opening.
@@matthewdyer2926 Are you disagreeing with the approach Mike Winger has taken on this issue? I used the word “nuanced” to describe his methodological approach of examining all sides and carefully pointing back to scripture. I didn’t use the word “nuance” to describe the Biblical teaching itself. I’m not sure if you understood my comment.
@@Meg_219 You may be right; I could have misunderstood. The word “nuance” has somewhat recently become the mantra of the evangelical Left, being referenced whenever any plain Biblical truth comes into conflict with the zeitgeist and needs to be explained away. Most hot-button Biblical issues today aren’t all that nuanced; nuance is merely injected in order to muddy the clear waters and shift opinions away from Biblical clarity, toward popular opinion. Egalitarianism versus Biblical patriarchy is one of the issues which often receives this treatment. If you didn’t mean it in this way, then I retract my statement.
@@matthewdyer2926 Thank you. I appreciate that- that’s not what I meant. I am not on the evangelical left, nor am I a progressive Christian, nor am I even egalitarian (though I admit I used to *want to be). I just think it’s important for us as Christians to still be careful about labeling people based on their use of a word (like “nuanced”) before asking more specific questions about what they meant. As a pretty theologically conservative Christian, I’m sure I would agree with you on many things the Bible is very clear about and I agree that progressive Christians will try to add nuance where there is none, but I do think there is value in taking an approach that seeks to accurately represent the other side (as Mike Winger does) and then pointing back to scripture. As we grow more and more polarized and “us vs them” in our culture, this approach seems to happening less and less, so I’m thankful that Winger tries to bridge that gap by being gracious to each “side” of an issue while still boldly defending Biblical truth.
"Now that I'm thinking about it I might make the whole world angry.."
The price of serving truth. Thank you Mike.
Yes, sometimes putting truth on the line, hard and firm, it is very difficult for some to take. It is complicated by our current world view now, too. Everyone has an axe to grind, and almost everyone can find an argument in certain places of The Holy Bible.
We have to take it to heart: Who Are We Arguing With? Can we make the stars? Can we stop the tides. We are not "all that and a bag of chips"! We were given breath as a gift from God our Father, no matter what we think or how we decide what the plainly written word of God really says.
If you read the Bible long enough, you are going to get your feelings hurt, whether woman or man. When we find that place, where we feel like arguing with our Heavenly Father, that is the place we should study harder. HE is never wrong. WE are His creation. We need to keep in mind that we did not hang the stars. They are just there, and what's more is, they are there at the pleasure of God Almighty.
God bless you mightily, my brother!
Dean
Or maybe scriptures have been interpreted through the biased lens of men? There are two major camps on this, and biblical scholars do not agree. That should tell us something. Also, most of the men doing the pontificating on women in ministry are coming at it through the lens of marriage which is actually the correct context. But!There are also single women in the church and many are staying away because of the entrenched patriarchy in the church. They are more free to use their gifts and talents outside the church than they are within. Shameful! Their head is also Jesus Christ, not a husband.
@@wiznup
This seems to be a sore spot for you, sister. Jesus is the husband of all the church. We need to get that out in the open.
After that, we recognize women leaders in the Church, such as Phoebe, Tabatha (Dorcus), Ruth, DEBRA, Ester, and many others. Why not include them in your opinions? Did they escape you, or are you keying in on the obvious intonation that "God" is "Father", a male figure? Jesus was a male. Moses was a male. King David was a male. Oh, wait... Mary (Jesus mom) was a female. Mary of Magdelene was female. Junius was female. Elizabeth was female, and so on.
Don't get hung up on this, my sister. The second human being ever made was female. God is not very concerned with how we use the bathroom or if we wear a dress or jeans.
I loved that line 🤣
It’s going to take faith,patience, and focus to wade through this. I’m very grateful for the help. The issue can be so divisive, but I want truth and God to be glorified. Thank you.
It's not even about complementarian versus egalitarian views. It is about What God Says through his word. Excellent teaching! I recommended the rest of our elder board to watch this series.
Deborah, Judges 4.
What about when the women know what's in The Word, and the men, not only, do not know The Word, but have given themselves over to passions and demons. Can women gather wheat on the Sabbath, or not? This is not rhetorical; I am really asking your opinion.
Who was the first 'egalitarian'?
How can you guys believe in this book written by cavemen? There is no more proof that god exist than Zeus or Santa Clause. Time to grow up and use your brain
Equal but different has never worked. Society will end up valuing one set of skills over the ever. Jesus in his ministry had many women included in all roles
Hey Mike,
Thanks so much for the video.
I am an egalitarian who used to be a complementarian. My experience of this debate thus far has largely been one of feeling isolated. When I was a complementarian - people told me that I REALLY believed what I believed not from my reading of scripture, but because I was a male chauvinist who wanted women to be oppressed. Once my studies led me to become egalitarian (it looks like you are going to be covering the same passages and arguments - so I'm all ears for what you have to say), I found that complementarians told me that I REALLY just wanted to bow to the world and I was twisting scripture to do so.
I've heard many egalitarians ride off complementarian men as bullies who abuse their wives. I've heard complementarians ride off egalitarian men as wimps who take no responsibility and are door mats for their wives.
I was not looking forward to this series as I was worried you would ride off the other side with same strawman arguments as has been done before (particularly on youtube and the internet). I may have come to different conclusions to you (thus far - I reserve the right to be wrong and to change my mind), but I agree with what you said in this video - it was a breath of fresh air on this debate.
Any one telling you that your complementarían views are because you want to oppress women is spiritually bullying you and is likely not a real follower of Jesus, just to be honest. The other view, I don’t judge motives I just honestly don’t get it. I’ll hear the best arguments out though in due time,
If women are to be silent in the church and never to exercise authority over a man, then how could one possibly be a pastor and lead a church ??? Lol do you not see the contradiction? God's word says they are to be silent and not have authority, so how could one who is to be silent and never have authority possibly lead a whole church ? Haha END OF DEBATE .
@@j-arthur6657 context. When it says women are to be silent in the church it is in a gentilic context. Women were interrupting services by asking questions during the sermon - something common in pagan circles where there was a conversation between congregants and the oracle. Basically, Paul is saying, if you have a question, ask it at home or after the service.
Also, the word for "authority" in the Greek, particularly in it usage in the Greco-Roman world, on top of the entire clause suggests "abuse of authority" not any authority whatsoever.
Go deeper than just the English translation. Remember, the English translation is an interpretation of Scripture. A translation team actually sat down and tried their best to put a descriptive and large language like Greek into a bland and small language like English. Often times the thought in the translation becomes lost. Knowing the biblical languages is essential. So don't start knocking egalitarians, they have an excellent argument.
@@j-arthur6657 Man… I’m a complimentarian and you’re either embarrassing us or not really a Christian and intentionally trying to sow discord among believers.
@@j-arthur6657 you clearly never read my comment, just what you wanted to try and prove your point. You're insulting to others on this thread. We're trying to have a civil and Christlike convo and you're just bashing everyone and laughing.
I'm done here. This isn't edifying. It's people like you who are the reason the church can't have deep conversations. It's just all insults.
As a someone who claims Christ you need to heavily look into your own heart before you start criticizing other believers who you basically ignored and didn't even bother to read in their entirety. Basic historical context tells you what is happening here, but you just want to ignore that for the sake of your own argument without even taking notice of it it.
Thanks so much Mike. I’ve been struggling with this topic for over a year now and I’m looking forward to hearing an understandable Biblical response.
Me too brother. Particularly as a man myself I feel like I'm treading around a minefield whenever I try to confront this issue. I tried to dig into this and found so many different and confusing scholarly conclusions, and knowing the social consequences for going in one direction or the other, I decided just to not try to cross the minefield at all. I'm really glad someone I trust has tackled this issue so carefully and I'm hoping to come out the other side of this with a better understanding.
Me too man. Ive just accepted a position in a denomination that refers to itself as “fully egalitarian” and is “ashamed it took them so long to do so” in like 1997. Wrestled heavily with this. Went back and forth so long. Not settled totally. I want to be egalitarian, but I want to be Biblical and settled in my position (but not unwilling to wrestle with it ever again as necessary).
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 Mike is going to address a lion's share of what you said here. Not to say I agree or disagree, but he has not even gotten there yet. This is a 10 video series and this is merely introductory and cursive. I am interested to see how he will handle this issue.
@@logansales7000 The mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if he didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain it won't be mentioned in the other 9 - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be sure he's completely unaware of the problem with those verses - once the mistranslation is corrected, you don't need 10 videos to deal with this topic.
God's word doesn't change , humanity does, society has become more and more progressive and it's seeping into the church and try to twist the Bible into fitting into our needs.
I agree pastor Mike
Amen and amen...struggling with this currently. There is only obedience or disobedience
@@laurenalmeyda6916 I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 He did months of research. Do you think he wouldn't've run across this during any of that? Checking the Greek is just about the first thing pastors do with any disputed verse.
@@omnitroph1501 An introductory video that doesn't include mentioning the translation error regarding the 2 verse which are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos aren't required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
@@JoanDArc77 "You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses"... Having followed Mike's channel for a while now, I am confident you are completely giving him too little credit. You are judging the end result without watching the other videos. That seems a bit shortsighted, don't you think?
If the issues you brought up is in fact never mentioned then your objections are valid. On the other hand, every time someone adamantly states that our understanding of Scripture is because of a specific mistranslation, there are flags raised for me.
1. Which translations specifically?
2. Does the commenter have the necessary linguistic experience to claim this, or can they point to good scholarly articles where this position or problem is discussed?
I am a complimentarion evangelical Christian, and I feel the bible clearly states that men and women have different roles - I am glad that you are discussing all info available and keeping it scripture based. I feel that those who are liberal egalitarian are too easily swayed to then become "progressive" Christians that are not scripture based,. I am looking forward to all of this series. I loved the whole head covering video x
Why women can’t be a head pastor and teach men? Because men won’t listen or hear anything they say. GOD knows men are animals and no matter what that woman wears while she is speaking men will always be thinking of se$ regarding her. Her hair, her dress, her eyes, her lips, men will see all of that and not even remember what that woman was saying. 😂 it’s just life and humans.
I would like to know what Paul meant in head covering as well
Egalitarianism is not a liberal view. It has been in practice since the early to mid 1800”s since the second great awakening in American history. Charles G. Finley could not by any stretch be called a liberal.
The languages used is certainly very post-modernist sounding, especially when it comes to the topic of abuse. Lived experience is king, and any power structure/hierarchy is a system of oppression. I'm interested to see what some of their other arguments are and why Mike takes a "soft-complementarian stance," and not, I suppose "fully complementarian," but so far the egalitarian view appears to be more inspired by left-wing ideologies than biblical theology.
@@Faith_and_Thought
I agree about egalitarianism and postmodernism, but I also see the thick comps as being influenced by these things.
Sure, Comps give the power more firmly to the man, but they also see gender as two monolithic identity groups who interact largely through power dynamics. This is straight out of critical theory. You’ll also see many comps saying something is true because they * felt* it was true. Piper is a pro at this, but others do it too.
As far as felt experience goes, many ladies find they are laughed at, mocked and ignored if they say they’ve been abused. Many conservative men see this as a “feminist tactic” and refuse to listen. Many men believe all ladies are controlling and out to usurp authority and therefore should not be believed. They also feel the abused woman is “proving” feminism right, and they must sweep her experience under the rug and shut her up. It’s all about winning the culture war. As Kevin DeYoung put it, “Ladies stop talking about abuse. You’re making the feminists win!”
Many of these ladies are only heard and helped by others who have also been abused. I think this is why they talk about lived experience. Doesn’t mean truth is subjective, like the postmoderns mean. Just that we can often be self centered and not hear the other person.
As to the question of WHY so much of the Church doesn't reason biblically about this issue, I'm reminded of a quote from Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on them not understanding it."
The fact that Upton Sinclair is being quoted to make an argument on something about the Bible is ironic. It is better just to quote 1 Timothy 6:10 and leave Sinclair’s works to unbelievers.
@@Michael_the_Servant I'm not making the argument. Mr. Winger made the argument. I just said I was reminded this truism
Charles Wolfe, I wouldn’t include Sinclair with Truth.
@@Michael_the_Servant are you implying that anythink that Sinclair ever said cannot be truthful or used as an argument? shouldnt factual things or ideas be independent of its creator?
Ignacio P., let what is factual be factual, but Upton Sinclair’s works are ripe with lies.
“The Jungle” actually lead to a federal investigation and report that refuted so many of the claims he wrote as facts. His works are merely fiction propaganda to support the agenda of his beliefs.
So, you have bad beliefs, lack of morals, and false writings. Why would you ever reference him or his works?
Jesus submitted his will to the will of His Father. Would an egalitarian perceive then that Jesus was claiming He was in some way not equal with His Father - or in some way inferior - or in some way of less value? The submission within the persons of the Trinity speaks to me ultimately of the sublime nature of love, involving submission and sacrifice on behalf of the other for their good - and their glory. Thanks Mike for all the time you’ve taken to carefully and biblically explore this topic.
I’m not an egalitarian but Jesus did say the Father was greater than Him
@@davidg1552 Jesus glorified His Father on earth by His perfect submission to the Father (John 17:4) as the final Adam. He - by means of His incarnation - did what man failed to do; and He did it to show the world how He loved the Father (John 14:30,31) and how mankind was to love God and our fellow believers (Ephesians 5:21) : by our submission for the sake of love. So as a man, the Father is greater than He. But as God, they are one essence with different functions.
Jesus - in the context of the passage you quote (John 14:28) - is telling his disciples to be glad for him because when His obedience is complete, He is returning to the Father and the Father will glorify Him with the same glory He had with the Father before the world was created (John 17:5).
Also in that passage, the ruler of this world has no power over Him because - unlike the first Adam, Jesus, the final Adam, did just as the Father commanded Him (John 14:31) and remained in His love (John 15:10).
@@pamelatrost2750 good explanation brother
This is exactly why I would hesitate to call this a secondary issue
If you read the bible objectively you will realise the trinity as it is taught, is not compatible with the bible. It is simply not taught. Read the bible without that preconcieved idea and you will see that Jesus was a man, born of a woman. Let that sink in first.
Then realise he lived as a Jew, under the law, observing all of it and being subject to it himself.
He prayed to God, who was also his father, because Joseph wasn't.
Jesus said that he was ascending to his God and your God.
Seriously does that sound like a third of some three person godhead?
Sadly, there can be harsh divisions even within degrees of complementarianism. I minister with a church that has taken a soft complementarian view (basically, women can do anything but be the preaching/senior minister or an elder), and we have been shunned by all the other churches from our denomination in the area who take very strict complementarian views on this issue. We would love to associate with them, but they don’t want anything to do with us. It’s heartbreaking to see people divide over secondary doctrinal issues. I appreciate your honesty and your heart. I, too, wanted so badly for years to hold an egalitarian view, but I simply couldn’t get around what Scripture says on the issue. I’m looking forward eagerly to the rest of this series!
I dont understand why he calls it a secondary issue when he quoted a bunch of people that were coming to conclusions like the bible is in error and that Jesus wasnt the authority while he was on earth. This is not a secondary issue, its a corruption within Christianity that destroys peoples faith.
@@ccrow3355 What some people hold on other issues has nothing to do with this particular issue. That’s a form of “guilt by association” fallacy. There are people with whom I have disagreements on primary issues that I can still affirm are correct on secondary issues. For example, I can agree with Apostate Prophet regarding his critiques of Islam even though he is an atheist.
@@ccrow3355 so what do you call these people like Ryan Howard? Im curious
@@ccrow3355 Primary issues are about salvation. If your theology on salvation is wrong your basis is completely wrong and you're not a Christian.
People can make secondary issues into primary issues but Mike is countering this idea and saying these aren't primary issues and you shouldn't divide so heavily over them, but people tend to do it anyway.
@@tabletmaster291 I dont call him anything. I just think that this is much more serious than people are making it out to be. It is literally destroying churches and peoples faith. This is the way alot of fake Christians infiltrate churches and spread heresy.
If you say women cannot preach,then also women should not cut their hair,always keep it covered, please understand that certain thinks that Paul said was his own opinion, for that time period, i believe women can mist certainly preach
I'm coming to a place where I really dislike the argument, "well, it's a secondary issue....." When it comes to false teaching i don't believe there is a secondary issue. "A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf." I do not consider a church that permits women to be pastors my brothers and sisters. If they truly were I'd have no trouble going to thes churches. Yet you can see right in this comment section that MANY have divided over it and left their churches over this very issue. That makes it a primary issue. It's a mistake to categorize biblical doctrine on levels of importance. Why even have these things in scripture then?
I would be careful in not calling them your brothers and sisters. But I agree that it should not be simply put a secondary issue. The Bible clearly states woman are not to be pastors.
I'm sorry your channel took a hit for a while, and I am so excited to hear your research with an open mind and share it with friends who are also seeking biblical truth on this topic. I just wanted to add that the greatest example of submission and how submission does not make an individual less-than is our own Savior! He did not count equality as a thing to be grasped but submitted Hinself to the Father and because of these actions the Father has given him authority and a name above all! Thank you again for your dedicated time and please extend those thanks to your wife, friends and colleagues who supported and guided you as you studied.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 I am interested in what you are saying, also because, when I asked God if I should be wearing a headcovering, He indicated no, saying "I don't see you as married". I was surprised, for several reasons;
1)I hadn't even imagined that the verse was directed to wives only
2)I have been married before
3)I have not entertained the idea of remarriage because of God command to women about marriage ending when the spouse dies.
My question is, what is your understanding on why God would see Eves transgression as being connected to her marriage?
I have been thinking of implications; perhaps her act forced Adam to consider deliberately sinning versus dividing from his wife. Perhaps they were supposed to always agree BEFORE making a decision, and Eve didn't? Maybe Adam hadn't considered ever disagreeing with Eve.
Then this would make sense; that unity can only be achieved between fallen mankind if the wife now submits since both are so individualistic and self-serving.
Which leads to another implication; if husband and wife learn to agape love each other, the unity could exist without the wife being the one who must submit on every occasion.
Also the every occasion would be in question because the decision to submit must be "as unto the Lord" (Eph 5:22), Not as though their husband IS Lord. That is, if he asks her to sin, she is not beholden to obey. Examples here would include Abigail and Nabal, and Sapphira and Ananias.
Another question would be, why an unbelieving husband would be persuaded to become a disciple due to the submission of his wife.
@@JoanDArc77 so.... unmarried women can speak in a church, but married women are to be silent last they bring shame, and are to ask their husbands at home?
1. What is the purpose of this spousal subjugation?
2. How does that make any sense in any culture?
3. What does that have to do with "the Law" (1 Cor 14:34)
@@timffoster 1st, the Head of an unmarried woman is Christ alone and she has no restraints regarding public ministry other than good social conduct that everyone normally submits to. If she marries, then her husband takes over headship - that's something she must consider before signing on. She's agreeing to a subordinate role although according to Eph5:21 there's actually mutual submission involved - the husband is called to be a servant-leader not a dictatorial taskmaster. It's similar to Christ's exhortation to His disciples in Mt20:25 - “The rulers of the Gentiles have power and lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." Eph5 says husbands should have the same attitude of self-sacrifice for their wives as Christ did in dying for the church (His bride), ie, they should be servant leaders - in short, submission isn't a one way street but spouses actually submit one to another. 2nd, the admonition in 1Cor14 is simply that wives should not openly question their husbands opinions or doctrinal stances in the church but to resolve their differences at home - to challenge their own husbands in such a way would indeed be a disgrace and a violation of the marriage bond. There's nothing wrong with a wife speaking out in church if they're both in full agreement about what's going to be shared - that's where the head covering for wives mentioned in 1Cor11:5-6 comes into play - it's a sign she's not merely speaking on her own authority but that the husband is in full agreement.
Mike, besides all the biblical knowledge you share, what im learning from you all the time, is the love you put in to teach these biblical truths. You are doing a great job! Praise the Lord!
Really encouraging to have someone teach biblical truth from a genuine place of love and grace
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 Not true. If you take whole biblical teaching into account, it's clear that even if there is an translation error, it's not possible to get to your assumptions. Please contact the channel owner. Maybe he will do a video answering you points.
@@DeutscherGospel What "assumptions" are you referring to?
Agree.
11:08 I’ve put off listening to this series partly because I wasn’t sure I was ready to hear a long discussion about what I can and cannot do. I grew up complementatian and still hold those views but life has presented challenges to the simplistic form that I was taught. Every question (plus a couple) in the first ten minutes describes my adult life. Thank you for understanding the heart of the question and for your attitude in approaching it. I look forward to reaping the benefit of all your study.
I left a congregation because they brought in a female pastor to replace a pastor that left. While I am a complementarian in view I owe much to women regarding my salvation, from my grandmother to the girl who witnessed to me in high school. God used several women to lead me to Christ and I value them. I did not leave that assembly just because they hired a female as pastor but because it was a major step in a path in progressive theology that had already been bothering me and I wasn't willing to go any further in it and they were not willing or able to give me a solid biblical defense of the reasoning and choice.
Yeah seems leadership is major issue here, there were female pastors that dont really move to progressive teachings...Im thinking desame way should women be forbidden to teach,witness,write books etc.
I agree that most of the churches allowing women pastors are progressive in theology and no longer following Bible teachings in other areas.
I would have a very difficult time if my church allowed a female pastor or deacon. I do believe the Bible is clear that women were not intended to hold those positions. I do believe that God never said they could not teach or write books or even speak on the podium. Women can witness to others and at times it is culturally expected. God made all people to witness and share the Gospel.
So is your objection? Is it the progressive ideology or is the fact its a women in ministry.
Sounds more like pride was your issue.
Mike, thank you so much for tackling this. As a woman, I feel the need for a thoughtful, careful, and comprehensive teaching of this issue. Thank you for being willing to take on the work and push-back to provide the biblical clarity that is severely lacking. Blessings on you and your ministry.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error.
The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression."
The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well.
For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
You said "Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short"
He has released only 2 of the 10 videos, if you think he "fell short" when he literally hasnt even touched on 80% of his views, it is obviously because you have your mind made up already.
@@nikkowood4476 If a glaring translation error isn't resolved before producing even one video about this subject - including this introductory one, it will remain an elephant in the room and undermine anything he ever produces on the subject. The truth is, that when this mistranslation is corrected, the controversy almost instantly ceases, those 2 verses stop contradicting other portions of the bible, and the division ends.
I was laughing. I was crying. This podcast had me gather my thoughts and feelings,and placing them aside for biblical truth. I can't wait to listen again. I can't wait to hear the rest.
Thank you for taking a deep dive into a very difficult issue. It will be nice to get a biblical view on a very important subject.
I recently posted this to Mike and you might be interested:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to.
For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well.
For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
Hey so I think Groothius's point was not so much that men can control every part of a woman's life, but that women are not given exclusive areas of authority that men do not share. Men can be pastors/elders and heads of the home, but what do women get to have authority over that men are not permitted to by scripture? Or what are they and they only allowed to do that men are not allowed to. Have babies I guess?
Excellent video! I pray that God will bless this whole series and use Mike to help many people think biblically about this controversial and practical topic.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
While I agree with you that it is not the gospel, this is absolutely worth divided if over. Name one denomination that hasn’t gone liberal after starting to ordain women. Every one of the denominations I can think of that has done this has gone liberal. Because when you dismiss the inerrancy of the Bible why not dismiss anything you want?
i agree with you!
I’m not familiar with everything the Assembly of God believes. I do know a wonderful Christian that attended an Assembly of God church for awhile until her family found out they ordained women. The problem is, it’s clearly anti-Biblical to do that. So that In itself is departing from God’s plan for his church. It’s just so clear how churches are supposed to be structured and the requirements for leadership. It’s also clear the roles for men and women. I mean, if you can break that role, what other requirements for leadership can we break? Can pastors be divorced? I think those kinds of churches have no ground to stand on if they draw the line there because if they are breaking one clearly outlined rule, why not break more.
There is only one reason churches even consider ordaining women and that is feminism. And I do believe feminism is evil and has been from the start. I used to say I was ok with first wave feminism just not the fourth wave we currently have. But that was naive of me and I didn’t know the history. The leaders of first wave feminism ALWAYS envisioned what we have now.
Perfectly stated. In one of his recent videos he talked about you have to take EVERYTHING the Bible states. You can’t pick and choose. Bible is very clear on this and would definitely be one issue that a church would be disobeying if females were pastors.
@Prey R well, definitely not trying to argue but I don’t think that homosexual issues etc. are the only error that a church can have. I mean, I know many Christians that are ok with New Age practices of all kinds (trapped energy used an excuse for sin, trapped bad energy spread down generations to cause sinful behavior as examples). Not to mention a church can be soft of gospel issues like Jesus being the only way to salvation, informing the effect of sin and preaching on it. All kinds of things. When we avoid things in the Bible, we tend to ignore other things as well. I guess that was my point. But again I really don’t know what AoG believes.
@Prey R I kind of thought that was the case but I didn’t want to accuse them without knowing as I’ve never been to an AoG and just don’t know, only what I have heard second hand.
In general, I'm not comfortable with the idea of female clergy, but I've also seen numerous churches where if women didn't step up, no one would have. I guess therein lies my opinion: it's not ideal, but sometimes the only other option is to leave a congregation unserved.
You continuously read with word submission where subordination has been written. They are not the same thing. Submission is a choice, free will. Subordination is not a choice of the subordinate.
Thank you for taking this topic on! I am a 72-year-old woman who is quite happy being a woman and submitting to God-given authority, I can hardly wait to hear the rest. God bless you Mike!
There is a time and place for woman to lead. It isn't a whole congregation at church.
@@greenlimabean why? What makes a man more valuable than women when it comes to their word?
I like that you said God given authority.
A very important distinction
@@Gaibreel Not any more or less valuable. God expects every Christian to spread God's good word and to be a light in this dark world. God has an established order about life. If you aren't willing to submit to God's will, you can't be saved. Period.
@@Gaibreel it's not that men are more valuable. We are equally valuable with men. Im a woman btw. It's that putting a woman in front of the congregation leads to the low parts of men in the congregation coming to the forefront. Sexual fantasies. That, and we women have too much self confidence, self worth, to fall for gender wars in the church.
Mike, this discussion comes at a great time for me; I've been wrestling with the egalitarian question for a while, and it's been hard to find objective, biblically consistent, and culturally sensitive (both in contemporary as well as biblical contexts) discourse on the matter. Thank you for taking the time to understand and present this matter.
I recently posted this to Mike and considering your interest in the topic, you might be interested and it might resolve some of your questions:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions between those verses and other portions of the bible are instantly resolved and all that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses along with others that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
I want to thank you, Mike. The more I watch of these videos, the stronger my belief in egalitarianism becomes. (I used to be a firm believer in complementarianism).
I'm not going to get into further discussion in the comment section because that would be virtually impossible to do with so many hours of video and people on the internet, and it isn't really the forum for that. But I would encourage everyone watching these videos to actually go to egalitarian sources, including the ones he refers to (that he sometimes misrepresents and misunderstands), to Scripture, and to prayer. Ask yourself: what egalitarian arguments is he not addressing or understanding properly? What questions about complementarianism does he not answer? What assumptions do he (or you) make?
And truthfully, that is very difficult to do. We all have our biases and weaknesses and I am definitely not exempt from that. And it is especially difficult to investigate and ask questions if you are surrounded by people who all say the same things. And with hours and hours of video, we can mistakenly assume length is equal to accuracy. And there is just so much that it can be difficult to even begin to engage (made all the more difficult by Mike saying you shouldn't respond in disagreement unless you've watched all the videos).
Despite telling us he wants to help us learn HOW to think and not WHAT to think, Mike does tell you what to think. He calls arguments dumb (sometimes before he even gets to the argument, setting you up to not even truly think about it because you don't want to be dumb). He doesn't show you how to study - he tells you what he studied and what he believes. But it's easy to come away agreeing with him and thinking you figured it out for yourself, when the videos set you up to agree with him and make discussion difficult. And he sometimes maligns egalitarians by saying the agenda is more important than faithfulness to the Word of God, and that we make people hate Christians. If you're anything like I was as complementarian, making egalitarians sound like a threat to my faith and witness to Christ was VERY effective at getting me to close my eyes and plug up my ears so I wouldn't even be able to hear what they had to say.
Even so, I am grateful that Mike acknowledges that this is indeed a secondary issue and not a salvation one. And I would encourage all to not just sit and watch these videos, but to seek, pray and ask questions yourself. Whether you are (or become) a complementarian-turned-egalitarian like me, or an egalitarian-turned-complementarian, or remain wherever you were, if you have truly studied and wrestled and can articulate both the strengths and weaknesses of a position - including the strengths and weaknesses of your own, and nourish a respect for your fellow believers and a deeper love for God - that is a positive thing. While I do grieve that so many still believe in marital hierarchy and restraining half the body of Christ, everyone has to be convinced in their own walk with the Lord and there are always things we can learn from each other.
(1 Tim 3:2Therefore an overseer (a) must be above reproach, the👉 husband of one wife👈, (b) sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,)
Ironically, I’m complimentarian and my husband is leaning egalitarian. He is not ordained, but is functioning as a youth pastor. This is our most contentious topic as we discuss matters of ministry. I’m looking forward to this study and I hope that it can help my husband and I to have thoughtful, loving discussion on the topic.
You might want to listen to Dr. Michael Heiser's teaching on Women in ministry as well. He's a biblical scholar. It's on TH-cam as well.
I recently posted this to Mike but so far, he hasn't responded - you might be interested:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, the contradictions between those verses and the rest of the bible are instantly resolved. All that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faultly doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
@@JoanDArc77 you are missing something that is very key in understanding what is actually being said in 1 Cor 14:34. There is a reference to the LAW in this passage. Now would Paul EVER make a claim that women should subject themselves to the LAW? Of course not! So it is clear then, that in this passage, Paul is responding to an erroneous position previously presented to him regarding the desire of at least one man (maybe more) to silence the women in their public gatherings. And what is Paul's response? It is one of chastising incredulity. He says, "What! Did the word of God come originally to you? Or was it you only that it reached?" He then continues to explain in vs 37 & 38 that what he was writing was a commandment of the Lord and that this preposterous allegation & plea to Paul to silence women in the church was IGNORANT. So men that continue to subjugate women to the back of the bus in the church are disobeying a commandment of the Lord as posited by the Apostle Paul and have chosen ignorance over understanding.
@@wiznup You need to re-read those verses - you have them totally twisted. Paul is addressing an egalitarian church concerning issues surrounding the use/misuse of the Gifts of the Spirit. When Paul refers to the "Law" in vs34, he's merely referencing the OT and by saying "as the Law ALSO says, he's saying that wives taking a submissive role to their husbands also applies in the NT - which he confirms in vs37 with "what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord". The crux of his admonition is that wives should not teach or otherwise take authority over their own husbands - his intention was to keep marriages intact and prevent them from being undermined as in the garden of Eden where Satan successfully tempted Eve to take a leadership role on an issue that wasn't authorized by God. Unfortunately, due to the translation error, this verse is used to subjugate and silence ALL women regardless of marital status, and to place them in a subservient position to EVERY man in the church - which has nothing whatever to do with what Paul (or the Holy Spirit) actually said or intended.
@@JoanDArc77 we're going to have to agree to disagree. This is not my own teaching but comes from a father in the faith by the name of Kenneth Hagen and my spirit bares witness to what he teaches. And because he was not threatened by women in ministry he mentored and helped to pastor the teaching gift in Billy's Brim.
I’ve been listening to you since about mid January when I discovered you on a friend’s fb post. I began this year by reading through the Word, using a one year study plan. I have been a believer for 27 years, but you are the first person I’ve ever known to actually teach me HOW to study and think biblically. Thank you so much for allowing Father to use you to help me gain the “how to”! I am already seeing the fruits of your guidance.
I’ve heard you announce several times that you were working on this series, and I am so thankful you have! Especially after listening to your series, “How To Find Jesus In the OT”, and several other podcasts...I am SO excited to be going through this series with you! Looking forward to gaining wisdom and insight on this much needed subject.
Hi Mike, Howard's wife Linda here, thank you so much for doing all the hard work on this issue. I was a child of the sixties, raised by a single mum, raging feminist, anti marriage. Then at 26 was saved and my world view was challeged, just a bit!! It is only in the last few years, as the rage has stilled, that confidence in the perfect design and peace which is gifted by our Father that I can look at this issue from a biblical perspective. Marrying was one such issue, now, finding my role as part of the body of Christ is the next. Thanks again!
Honestly, the whole idea of what you want to believe really spoke to me on a personal level. Even after just the first 20 minutes of this video, it was quite profound to the point where I felt a little bit called out. Thank You. Also, I appreciate how you emphasize this topic's secondary nature, as it makes everything seem a bit more comfortable at least for me. So often Christian debate gets caught up in things that are not vital to the faith itself, so this distinction is so helpful.
I do believe thatif MEN refuse to respond to God's call to ministry, then God will call women to the "job" . Biblical examples of women in leadership are very few (e.g. Deborah), I do believe that the Biblical IDEAL is for men to take the lead in ministry; but God's hands are not tied!
Pastor Winger, I appreciate your heart for understanding and teaching God's Word. Hope there will be more pastors who eagerly desire to be grounded in the truth 🙏
Great start Mike, this type of in-depth content is exactly why I subscribed to your channel in the first place. The Q&A sessions on Fridays are fine but due to the ad-hoc nature of them are necessarily somewhat shallow. These deep study videos on the other hand, this type of thorough dive into topics is what sets you apart from others. Keep it up!
I understand what you mean by the egalitarian assuming all men have all power over all women, but I think what their issue is that while all men may not be leaders all leaders must be men. So a woman’s authority over topic or expertise is ignored or not trusted. The other issue is that its not just different roles, its that women have less roles available to them so the effect is that women are viewed as less than men. I am exploring Christianity so while “dont bypass the bible” may make sense if the bible is already agreed upon, it just breaks my heart that I might feel called to a religion that views me less than a man. I understand you and the majority of complementarians dont think that, but I think thats the impact on the culture because its a question if what can women do and not what can men do and what can women do..cause men can do everything. I am not trying to be rude it just really brakes my heart because I dont think the men understand what we go through
God doesn't view you as less. Read the gospels and see how Jesus interacted with women. If you haven't done so already, listen to Mike Winger's "How to get saved" video and some if his "proof" videos on Jesus being raised from the dead. This topic about women in ministry is interesting (and hotly debated), but its importance pales in comparison to who Jesus is and what he did for you.
@@veritasmuy2407 I think Catherine F should focus on the truth of who Christ is, and what our response to God should be. Other aspects of scripture are secondary to this and should be played out with grace and humility, and with deference to other scriptures which include women in so many aspects of church life and gifting. Also, it seems like what exactly Jezebel is teaching in Revelation 2:18-22 is more of an issue that the fact that she is teaching.
Before watching the video: I’m a complementarian woman. I think woman can do anything but be a pastor (meaning she can witness to men, can be a theologian, can teach women and children, etc.) . I also think women should submit to their husbands decisions (obviously that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be debate/discussion between the husband and wife… just that the man is the final decision maker). I think those two issues relate to each other as the relationship between a husband and wife is an analogy to Christ and the church. This seems to fit the best with scripture. I have more detailed questions, so I am so excited for this series.
I agree. I know there is a lot more to come but I believe the Bible calls all Christians to be witnesses. Matthew 28:7 & 10 the women were the first ones told to go & tell that Christ is risen. I have spoken many times to congregations during services though I have no (man given) qualifications &
many times I have received thanks & appreciation - to God be the glory! BUT my understanding of the Bible is that women have no spiritual authority over men. There is a big difference in teaching to being in a position that includes correction. I attend a church where the pastor is a woman so that makes this study even more relevant. Just to add to things that impact on my seeking is my husband is not a Christian but he is head of our home.
Can I ask an honest question?
Why do you favor a "final say" version of authority instead of a "responsible for acting like Jesus first and creating a flourishing environment for everyone" version of authority? Matthew 20:26-28, Mark 10:43-45, philippians 2:5-8, 1 Corinthians 13:4, etc.
For example, I have authority as a parent, but it's not to have the power and control and the final say, it's so I can guide and disciple my children and empower them to make their own wise and Christ-like decisions. It's my job to create an environment where they can thrive and grow in wisdom and stature. And sure, sometimes I have to make a choice for their good and their flourishing, but I don't define my authority that way. And even when I have to hold a boundary, it's not done by insisting they obey, it's done by figuring out how to support them and guide them toward Jesus.
I see a husband's authority in the same way, but different because a woman is not a child. It's his responsibility as the head to reflect Jesus first, to lay himself down first, to seek the flourishing of others first, etc. And it's my job to submit to him and strive to do the same things first. His guide is Jesus and the fruits of the spirit and my guides are the same.
I just have a hard time understanding why the lead/submit model is favored over mutual respect, problem solving, conflict resolution, and teamwork for the good of the whole family, with the wife looking to her husband's interests and the husband looking to his wife's interests, and them both looking to the interests of their children together as a partnership. And working things out through prayer and fasting when they can't agree, and working it out until they can.
Maybe you can help me understand how you view the lead/submit model? Do you understand it differently?
@@nicoleparsons7630 I don’t disagree with anything you say. It seems like we are saying the same things. We both agree that both the man and woman have responsibilities in the relationship.
As far as the children analogy, I would argue the authority parents have over their children is greater than the authority a husband has over his wife. So I’m not the biggest fan of that analogy… I’m not going to marry a man who treats me like a child (as you mentioned, the analogy isn’t perfect). :)
@Mila Nora that's fair. I didn't mean to imply at all that women are like children, so I'm sorry if that came across that way. I meant to give a more black and white example of authority as "responsibility" instead of "final say," a definition that I apply to any type of position of authority.
So what's the difference between the complementarian lead/submit model and the egalitarian model of mutual respect I described above? Again, genuine question. ❤
Usually my husband do the research together and talk about the needs/ wants of our family and are able to make a decision together. We seriously consider each others thoughts and ideas and no one has a Trump card in their back pocket to end a disagreement. If a decision can't be made, the one who knows less/ has less at stake/ feels less strongly about it usually submits to the other.
My husband is a very very generous person, to the point that it might seem "unwise" to some (we won't be millionaires by the time we retire 😅) He always prays and seeks the Holy Spirit and always looks to the needs of our family first, and we've made a lot of sacrifices because of his beautiful desire to give and serve others. In those rare instances that I disagree with his choice to give, he always shares his heart with grace and gentleness and love. He hears me out and takes my ideas into account. And if he still feels strongly even if I don't, i say, "i will trust your decision and your wisdom and I will support you in whatever capacity you need."
I did days and days of research on parenting when our oldest was born. My husband did not. In those rare instances that I disagreed with a parenting choice, I would talk to him about it with gentleness and humility and kindness and show him what I was learning and listen with empathy and compassion. I would take his thoughts into account and seriously consider his perspective. And if i still felt strongly about it, he would say, "I trust your decision and your wisdom and I will support you in whatever capacity you need."
And if we still can't agree after all that, we get pastoral counseling in good faith (that's happened maybe once?)
This is not the lead/submit model I learned in my complementarian upbringing. Maybe my experience is not common? What are your thoughts?
@@nicoleparsons7630 can you please share resources that support your perspective on what authority means? It makes total sense to me and I’ve never heard anyone articulate it that way.
Thank you SO MUCH for talking about this. I’ve been looking forward to this series since June (or July or whenever you released that tiny clip about women in ministry). I appreciate your thoroughness and your determination to let the Bible dictate your thoughts rather than finding interpretations that you like and sticking with those. I have so much trust and respect for you because of that. (But don’t worry; I know you aren’t infallible, and I won’t just take your word on it. :) )
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 That is interesting, and I'll have to look into that. I can't say whether or not Mike has heard this argument (though I'd guess that he has if it's been recorded in any academic book about the subject), but I do know that he's aware of all the examples you've mentioned because he's spoken about them before, and I'm certain that he's planning on bringing up all the evidence you presented. I'm not completely convinced that a mistranslation solves the issue, however (though I could always be wrong). This indicates that an unmarried woman can speak in church while a married woman cannot, at least without her husband's permission. That doesn't make sense to me. A twenty-year-old single woman is rarely wiser than a fifty-year-old married woman. Why would the younger speak while the older remains silent? And if a woman's ministry must first be approved by her husband, then what about women who are married to unbelievers? (I know that 1 Peter 3 speaks about a wife's behavior to her unbelieving husband, but what happens to her work in the church if the husband doesn't approve?) What if a single woman was a leader in a church, then marries a man who doesn't give her permission to continue leading? What if the husband does give her permission? Wouldn't she then be usurping his authority by being a leader over him in the church? How is the husband supposed to know whether or not it is biblical to give his wife permission to have a leadership position in the first place? There has to be an answer to this biblically, or else the husband would be able to tell his wife what to do and what not to do without submitting himself to God. I'm sure you have answers to these, and I'd love to hear your thoughts if you don't mind.
@@rebeccab719 1st, the mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if Mike didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain it won't be mentioned in the other 9 - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be sure he's completely unaware of the problem with those verses - once the mistranslation is corrected, he won't need 10 videos to deal with this topic. 2nd, the only prohibition against married women is to not teach or otherwise take authority over their husbands, including speaking out against their opinions or doctrinal stances in front of the church - any issues between them should be worked out at home. 3rd, age has little to do with the issue, only God's call and particular anointing on someone's life matters - 1Tim4:12 says - "Let no one despise or think less of you because of your youth, but be an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, and in purity" and Acts2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall prophesy..." - the younger are obviously used by God to minister to an older generation. 3rd, there's indeed no restrictions on single women, such as myself, regarding any ministry or leadership roles in a church except to deliver God's word accurately and faithfully - if I ever planned to get married any issues about that would need to be resolved beforehand. 4th, if a wife takes a leadership role and the husband doesn't have one, it's understood that her authority doesn't extend over him, the same applies if she has a teaching role and he doesn't - it's understood that she's not using her position to teach him and he has full authority to prevent her from teaching something he doesn't agree with. Lastly, if the husband is unsaved he's not really in the loop regarding any control over what she feels called to do in a church unless she wants to submit for the purpose of placing him in the direct path of God who will then work on his heart. There are many nuances regarding all the various situations that might arise and each would need to be worked out on an individual basis.
@@JoanDArc77 That's fair. I think I see your point. I'm still looking forward to what Mike has to say about the topic, though.
100% agree!
SUPER EXCITED to soak up this series. Thank you for investing the time to study it and share what you learn. PLEASE make sure you address the topic from the perspective of single and abandoned women (women living the life of an aguna). How can a single adult woman be subject to her husband or ask her husband or even her father at home? Of course she can’t. How does merciless prejudice against her immutable designation as a woman, and rigid legalistic adherence to Paul’s pastoral letters fulfill the command for a man in church leadership to love his (single female) neighbor as himself? It doesn’t.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3-4, NKJV)
If a women is helping save people they are helping achieve Gods will of saving as many people as possible. Some of the best teachers ive seen on youtube have been strong women.
Been wanting to get a true deep study & biblical interpretation fro Mike Winger on this!!! I’ve heard so much in the space & personably believe most pastors that share this have not put in the study time to really break it down. Praying the Holy Spirit reveals some fresh insights 🔥
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I am not on either side of this issue yet. I have a lot of questions, and the more I read and study the Bible I get more questions. I don't want to just pick a side, I want to know and follow God's word. So thank you for this series Mike, I hope my questions are answered. I appreciate you taking the time to study and teach on this topic.
Hop on a side, one is clear and straightforward…the other requires mental gymnastics
@@mccalltrader Not really. People say that cause they are referring to a couple of verses. But when you study the early church, Genesis, the two roles in the church, Paul's letters and more, many questions arise. Some questions are needed for clarity. Thank you for your thoughts though and God bless.
@@thewoolpack I’m sorry friend, but that’s not true..we can play what if games all day, however, Paul is very clear about the role of a woman in church, and the book of Titus lays out criteria for church leadership, being a man is one of them. Drawing conclusions outside of the purview of the passages takes mental gymnastics to justify…both ways
@@mccalltrader Thank you for being respectful. Like I said some questions are for clarity. I just have some questions about all of this that I need answered. So I'm glad Mike is doing this series, should be good. God bless!
@@thewoolpack well good luck to you brother! I’ve found mike to be a great and reliable resource..have a good night!
I love that I came across this video , I was just asking my dad about this and he was giving me alot of good scriptures, I'm so happy you are going to go into depth, and I ask for prayers so that I may be doing God's will and not mine
This has been a topic that I have been "struggling/wrangling" with this last year.
I love apologetics and theology. I love a good healthy discussion about scripture. I also love to teach and show others how scripture intertwines and is a beautiful piece of artwork that only God could create for us. This topic of the place of a woman has never been a topic I paid attention to before, Likely because of our culture. But also because where our culture is now has made me more keenly aware that I could be off on views on this topic.
I have been thinking about what is my role in the church. Have I been fulfilling my role? How could I better fulfill my role and set an example to my children? I appreciate that you are doing a series on this topic, because I could use some guidance on this.
1 Peter 2:9 we are all royal priesthood.
Have you ever been to a site called Tru 3:16-the Eden Podcast. It trues up the scriptures from Gen 3:16 and gives lots of correct info about the genders and what God truly meant for men and women to be.
So excited for this series!!! I've been wanting to study this more for myself, because I know what my position is, but I want to be able to defend my stance with THE BIBLE, not just tradition.
This is the first time commenting on your videos, not because I have very strong views one way or the other but because you should know you have support. You comment about making people mad a lot lol, I wouldn't worry too much about them. I watch your videos because I have a desire to know the truth and I have learned over the last couple years, learning the truth sometimes requires challenging yourself and your presuppositions. I just wanna know the truth and I like your approach to a lot of these topics. I've always felt the Bible should trump personal feelings. Keep up the good work. Should also mention I came across your videos because red pen logic on Facebook mentioned you.
At my very conservative church, we regularly sing hymns written by women. I realize that this is fine and acceptable. Most of these hymns consist of essential doctrine. I just find it interesting, because I’ve yet to see a woman be asked to pray aloud. It’s just funny on what is considered appropriate within this body.
I have not been to any church yet that doesn't bypass the bible on some issue or another. There is constant debate and differences of interpretation in all churches. I have a feeling when we get to heaven that Jesus will smile and say that 90 percent of it wasn't all that important, and he just put it in there that way to keep us all engaged in constant thought and wonder. Of course, I'm not referring to biblical facts and truth. "Or am I" Could it be as simple as Love Jesus with all we have and are made of and love our neighbor as ourselves. If you really stop and think about it, think of any topic in the Bible that comes across your mind and ask yourself if it has multiple different thoughts, theories or answers. I believe when we get to heaven all our thoughts will be on one thing, and that is worshiping the Lord Jesus Christ.
The way so many things are today can get confusing and sometimes scary. I’m so glad you always point us to scripture. I have been a Christian for a very long time. It’s not until a few years ago that it seems woman pastors are everywhere. I have been wondering biblically was it ok? I will admit I was not comfortable with it probably because I wasn’t sure what the Bible actually said. I appreciate you taking the time to research and passing it to us. Thank you Mike for all you do. We appreciate you. God bless you.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
This topic will make you lose friends in the Church. We have a really hard time with this. I am a woman and truly believe that we cannot equally serve in the same capacity with men simply for the sake of order, not necessarily because we aren't capable. I think we have to be willing to see ourselves as God sees us and not how others want to see us. I know women that are pastors and don't find the need to disagree with them, but I would not submit myself to their shepherding, not as a lead pastor or Elder. I just don't see it in scripture. I am raising very strong girls. Strength doesn't mean a lack of boundaries. If anything, it was Christ's ability to pick His life back up and not doing it, that showed His true power.
Amen
Feelings..... as a woman.... for men to rise up and be healthy Biblical leaders in the home and in the world God has put them in.
AMEN! 🙏🏾
Women submit outwardly by not preaching. But honestly within ourselves we pick and choose what to believe, whom to respect. Everyone does. We arnt computers who are programmed by a dude. We don't take downloads. We compute for ourselves.
Pastor Mike, as a woman I have been struggling with understanding these different positions biblically for a while. I am thrilled and very grateful that you have taken the time and effort to explain this biblically. I appreciate your ministry so much. You put so much thought and effort into your videos and are so careful with the interpretations of the scripture, it is a breath of fresh air to see and hear. I pray that God will continue to bless you and your ministry.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 you are NOT a pastor.
1Tim 2 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹¹ Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
¹² And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
"God is simply & extremely clear on this"
~You need to repent.
@@pastortroy777 You're using circular reasoning. The issue is that I've shown that 1Tim2:11-15 is translated incorrectly- turning around and trying to use the mistranslated verse to prove your point is a fallacious argument. The truth is, the translation error I cited is 100% true and irrefutable - the Greek word "gune" should have been translated as "wife" instead of "woman" and it has no application to me whatsoever since I'm not a married woman.
@@pastortroy777 Research the Artemis cult at Ephesus which the Apostle Paul dealt with for several years. Between 100 and 200 hours of reading/listening plus more hours digging through garbage, you should have a very good idea WHY Paul writes what he did. It all has to do with the feminist superiority Artemis cult at Ephesus.
You will then see that every word/sentence Paul writes about women is directly aimed at the crazy radical feminist cult of Artemis. You've heard of the Amazon women? Guess what? They are not merely a myth they existed and the Artemis cult at Ephesus was mostly built on their belief system & culture.
Bible really opens up and shines forth the truth when see beyond one dimension with both eyes. Its beyond words and amazing doesn't come close to describing it. Praise be to God, Creator of Heaven & Earth.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 Thank you for your comment 🙏. Mercy, peace & love be in abundance to you.
I've been WAITING for you to cover this topic. It's one that I've been struggling with since I came to Christ two years ago. Looking forward to this study.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error.
The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression."
The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well.
For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I’m excited for this series! I know you’ll approach it in a biblically solid way and I appreciate you said you wanted to be egalitarian but aren’t. I think most people especially women would love the Bible to be egalitarian because of the feminist culture we live. I personally think the Bible is clearly complemetarian but I’m open to hearing why the other side says otherwise. I know you’re coming with the receipts Mike! I’m really looking forward to hearing what you’ve found about head covering. I’ve been covering for about 5 months now, and I did a lot of research on both sides, for and against. I wanted to be against it honestly but in my findings I found the Bible supports women covering but it seems to be the unpopular opinion. Ultimately I decided to follow the Bible versus the culture. Like you said though, it’s not a salvation issue, but it’s something I think a lot of people come to with preconceived notions and rather just ignore it all together. Appreciate all your hard work and awesome content, thank you.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I appreciate your will to follow what gods word says. I still have ways to go. For example I struggle with the word "all your speech must be uplifting". I love bantering and it is a very common way of socializing as a man. And we don't see it as putting someone down. I don't know what precisely the Bible teaches on that topic and I don't have the will to find out. I have worse things impacting my life, but that is one topic which I'm pretty conflicted about.
_PS. While reading I've noticed that your profile picture still has you without head covering._
@@philippbrogli779 Just remember what Jesus said in Mt12:36 - "But I tell you, on the day of judgment men will have to give account for every idle word they speak"
P. S. I'm not a married woman - 1Cor11:5 about head coverings is also regarding wives. Christ is my only Head.
@@JoanDArc77 I will have to give account for a lot of idle words. But what I'm also don't know if that means if we have a family dinner we are either to be quiet or talk uplifting stuff. Anything not in those two categories is idle and therefor worth judging. That somehow feels wrong. It might just be me though as I'm a fallen human with a deceptive heart.
@@philippbrogli779 Another verse that applies is 2Cor10:5 about taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
The only thing that matters is what God says:
Ephesians 5:
22. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.
24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
..
Titus 2:
1. But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2. That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4. That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5. To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. .
.
1 Corinthians 14
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD... .
.
1 Corinthians 11
. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
I’m only 25 minutes in and I can already tell that this series is going to be amazing.
I literally wept when you listed the questions in the beginning, all the nuanced situations that women might find themselves in that so many people fail to consider. Just to hear a man, and a "soft complementarian" at that, talk about the confusion caused by disagreements in these things was healing in a way. I don't know how many times I was told by one leader in the church to take a leadership role and then told by another that I couldn't do the thing that logically followed. Or given the same position as a male coworker (speaking on a Wednesday night to youth) but having to call it "speaking" and not "teaching or preaching" even though my male counterpart "preached" in the same setting to the same audience. That confusion caused SO much hurt, and I think I embraced a "soft egalitarianism" because it gave me an across-the-board answer. I'm genuinely looking forward to hearing what sounds like a balanced, careful, and Biblically centered view, and I'll try my very best not to let the hurt color my understanding! Thank you, Pastor Mike!
I'm sorry you experienced so much hurt. It sounds like the situation you were in was chaotic and you got hurt as a result. Seek God and He will lift you up. God creates order and peace. I hope you find that as you seek Him.
I totally understand. This is such a painful subject for some of us. I'm hesitant to watch because any time I get into this topic it feels like ripping off a scab; BUT I do trust Pastor Mike to be fair, balanced, and Biblically minded so I will listen.
Also, the "speaker" title always makes me cringe.
I love the way you worded that second to last statement. I hope the same for myself on all subjects. (But without anywhere near the pain on this topic you’ve had to deal with since I am a guy.)
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 That's interesting, but it sounds like the kind of thing that will probably get brought up in a later video. I'll be interested to see it.
This actually was the most anticipated series for me, Mike Winger,(such a brilliant teacher)brings every topic and nuance explored thoughtfully and Biblically. This is such a blessing! I am grateful for such a well researched, Biblical view and study.
Go read the epistle of Titus. Paul outlines the requirements for church leaders here
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@Thoska Brah Don't be so sure - an introductory video that doesn't include mentioning the translation error in the 2 verses that form the basis for excluding women from ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. No, you can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos aren't required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
@@JoanDArc77 Hi did mention them. He said he would address them later.
@@abrahamv.2976 Where did he mention the translation errors in 1Tim2 and 1Cor14?
It may be too late, because of her health, but I would love to know what Kay Arthur, of Precept Ministries, would say about her role in ministry. She gave us decades of incredible teaching!
She kept all her teaching under the suthority the Word of God.
Her teaching was in no way usurping authority over men.
Only those wanting to listen to her teaching would have listened. And been solidly instructed in the Word of God.
I only took 1 Corinthians under her.
She gently led me into understanding that cessationism is anti biblical. I will always be grateful to her.
So sorry to hear she is unwell.
I knew it was time to leave a church when the pastor came to my house and in front of my pastor husband told me he wanted me to become his secret deacon. I was a deacon because I would do deacon things, but I had to keep it secret because it would upset some ppl because I'm a woman. I told him that I was honored but I couldn't accept because I had just done a study about this, as God had impressed it on my heart & I didn't feel women had this sort of roll to play in ministry.
He said "what about Debra?" I told him, I'm so glad you mention Debra as an example of how God has to raise someone up when no one else is willing to stand. He allowed women to step in those rolls to humiliate the weak men who refused to stand & do the job. If I were to walk into your church and find a female deacon, I would think all the men in your church are too weak to lead & that would reflect poorly on you. I can't do it. Thank you though. I don't need a title to do what I' have been lead to do. I can just keep serving a long my husband without a title.
I later found out that he had other secret female deacons. So glad we left that place, his wife was extremely controlling and toxic. She wanted to approve who i had over my own house. They would find out by other congregants that would drive by my house we had guests & call the pastor's wife on us. The pastor would then just show up to police us. I once made my friends a meal because he was getting his first dose of chemo in the neighboring state. I knew they'd get home exhausted. Somehow, they found out about this & the pastor's wife's secretary called me to yell at me because the pastor's wife liked to make the first meal and she was planning on taking them a meal 3 days from then. I had no idea she liked to make "the first meal" and I was just cooking extra food and taking some down the street for 2 friends. I wasn't in a "meal train" I had never even heard of meal trains. When I made the meal, they hadn't made a meal train. The secretary tried to bully me into not taking the meal over there. I took it anyway. Those are just some examples of the control and lunatic behavior. there are way more. No one stays that church for more than 2 years. I'm so grateful my husband decided to step down from ministry left that place.
The pastor at that church used positions of leadership to control ppl & to keep them in the awful place, that is that church.
Anytime ppl would be ready to leave there suddenly the husband was made an elder and the wife was made a secret deacon.
I hate saying this, but often times, women are more concerned with a leadership position (with their ego) than with God, Himself.
Men too obviously but clearly on this subject, feelings and positions are more important for egalitarians than God's Word.
Thanks for taking the time to tell a very graphic, detailed, story.
This is a purely rabbinical view that has been allowed in the church. They debased women in the oral law(Halacha) bc the carnal rabbis blamed sin on the woman. Paul always backed women as teachers & leaders in the church. The exiled Israelites in Babylon used the creation order to dominate the women. The biblical role for men is based on these verses: Eph. 5:23 “For the husband is the HEAD of the wife as Christ is the HEAD of the church,his body.” 1Cor. 11:3 “The HEAD of every man is Christ and the HEAD of the woman is man, and the HEAD of Christ is God.” The meaning of these verses rests on the Greek word KEPHALE which is translated HEAD in the N.T. Did it mean superior to or one having authority in Ancient Greek? Lexicographers Liddel, Scott, Jones and McKenzie ( A Greek- English Lexicon givs no evidence of such a meaning. The Septuagint translators used different words than HEAD (KEPHALE) when the Hebrew word for HEAD implied superior to or authority over. Those translators of the Hebrew O.T. Into Greek used the word ARCHON or other words when the Hebrew word for HEAD carried the idea of leader, ruler or authority. Kephale is rarely used when Hebrew word ROSH translates as superior rank. 1Cor. 11:3 KEPHALE means the Greek concept of source, origin. Christ is the ORIGIN of man; man, ORIGIN of woman; God, origin of Christ. Paul shows he was not imputing authority to males by his statement “ As woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.” 1Cor. 11:12
Unfortunately your testimony is all to common. Great job in keeping your perspective. I know a few Deconesses (non-secret) that are the very active wife of Deacon's. Is that what is used in your new church?
God's will is the way.
@@jupham4771 I am between churches right now.
where in scripture do you compile your belief that debra was raised up because men would not take the position?
18K views in 4 hours...seems like people are going to watch it Mike. I also think you hit on some pretty solid points here.
I have a sister who says she is a minister- . I grew up in a church were women operated in the roles of Preachers, pastors, evangelist , teachers, ministers, etc. It was never discussed or brought up about what the bible says/ said about women in these roles!! I personally want to think biblically about these matters. So thank you for all your time and research. God bless you!!!
Karen, I believe many if not most of us have had similar experiences, but I appreciate your desire to think biblically! Because of God making us a new creation with a desire to love and obey him, we want to follow His word, and not just lean on experience. I honor hold to a complimentarian view but that has not always been the case, and I have women in my family who I love dearly, who hold roles in which they should not. I don’t make it an issue, and continue to love them and be respectful. :)
Exactly!!!! In the church I grew up in - women have always been in ministry just like the men!!! Never questioned it, Never heard anyone teach in the church about it it was the "norm".
His title is pretty click bait-y, but it’s the topic he discusses to counter egalitarians. He agrees with you!
I grew up in a church WHERE (not WERE) women acted at pastors.😉
Karen I would recommend reading the book of Titus. Paul outlines the requirements for the church leaders in this epistle. You do not need Mike to tell you. He sent Paul to teach us these things. I am sorry you were raised in a church that turned from Paul. However, you seem to have a good heart and I really think you have the ability to read this epistle and understand the truth
Complimentarianism has a “separate but equal” feel to it that has lots of people running to be egalitarian.
It isn’t that it’s wrong or bad to hold a submissive roll but that specific people can ONLY have that roll based solely on something out of their control, how they were born. Although, I agree with Mike that this is a biased assumption, even just an ick feeling, that is brought in before reading the Bible.
Commenting for the algorithm ***
People need to hear these debated topics. Very interesting and challenging. God bless you broski
That's a tough topic. God Bless you and give you wisdom in it. No matter which side of the argument you support you're going to have people who don't hold it as a secondary issue like you said. For them its a primary issue and they're going to in true cultural fashion give you hate for not agreeing with them.
Props to you on diving into such a culturally
taboo issue and especially doing it with love and respect… really looking forward to this series.
God bless man, keep it up!
One thing that I was hoping will be covered also is how the Bible guides single women to submit in the church when we have no husband (divorced and never married) for a 'covering'.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
I've only gotten halfway through this video; sorry, it's very long. It seems like your basic premise is the Bible is perfect and inerrant, and whatever it says overrides our personal relationship with God. You say at one point something like if a woman feels called by God to serve in ministry, but the Bible says no you can't, then you (the woman who feels called) is wrong and misinterpreting what you feel because if the Bible says no, so God would never call you. That is a wrong presumption to start with. God can call anyone at any time to do anything, regardless what is written in the Bible.
The Bible is a collection of books written down by men to record their spiritual experiences, and it is not perfect. Humans make mistakes, and there are clearly mistakes in the Bible. Many translations have different versions of what the scripture is; they cannot all be correct. Even looking at the stories by the different Apostles as to their witness of Christ's teachings vary in what happened, when, and how.
To say the Bible has authority over our lives above and beyond what God calls us to do today, here and now, is wrong. Our personal relationship with God / Jesus the Holy Spirit is what outweighs all else, not the Bible. If all the Bibles disappeared tomorrow, God would still exist. The Bible is not God. It is His word written down as best as humans could manage it, and we've gotten a lot of things wrong over the centuries. It is an excellent guide to help us understand what God wants from us, but it is a starting place only, not the end of all discussion and possibilities. God works through us still in today's world. To say that a woman cannot be called to serve in ministry by God because of what the Bible says is misguided at best, and harmful at worst. You're guiding people - in this case, women - away from what God is instructing them to do. We should listen to God first and the Bible second. The Bible is helpful, but not perfect. Do not mistake the Bible for God. God gave us free will, which means humans can mess up anything, including translating the Bible. If God speaks to someone directly, He is the authority we must hear and obey.
You clearly care about doing the right thing, and it is hard to know what that is these days. I did enjoy what I heard of this video, but it's late and I need to sleep. Peace.
Having just found Mike and his show I have become quite the fan. I look forward to hearing the discussion.
Mike, I love, love, love this series! One of your other videos, can't recall which one, showed up in my recommended a couple months ago, and after watching a few others, I subscribed. I absolutely love your deep dives! I love that you honor scripture above all, and are seeking to "rightly divide it"--even if that entails having to change your views. You apologize often for how lengthy some of your videos are, but I for one appreciate them! Any serious student of the bible would. You do a superb job showing both sides in this particular series and again, I appreciate that. Be encouraged brother! We need leaders like you who are not afraid of the culture, who are willing to teach the true word of God in humility, which I think you do, but with courage and boldness. I will be praying for you, your ministry, and your family! Sorry for such a long comment.
the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
Thank you so much for doing this series! As a complementarian woman who used to be egalitarian, this issue makes walking with Christ sometimes seems like tiptoeing through a minefield. I just want to please God, but there are so many verses on this topic and so many different opinions from so many different people and it can be hard to understand. People can also be incredibly rude from both sides. I’ve had people call me a legalistic misogynist before and I’ve had random guys say super sexist things like that I have to submit to them because of my gender and a woman’s whole purpose is to be a servant to men. I’m excited to hear a more balanced view and take some more time to ascertain what the Bible says on the matter.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error.
The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression."
The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well.
For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 He hasn’t covered those topics yet. He will in other videos. Could you wait until he puts them out before you explain your beef with them please? All this at once is too much. Especially when everyone has a different interpretation and line of argumentation that seems valid until another person comes and contradicts them.
@@katethegreat4918 An introductory video that doesn't mention the major translation error in the 2 verses which are at the heart of excluding women from ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's a complementarian (at 11:00) You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos wouldn't be required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
@@JoanDArc77 I don’t want to be rude, but you come across as a very angry person with an agenda to make the Bible fit into your predetermined view. It’s very easy to be hurt by people who misuse the Bible and to be offended with what the Bible has to say. If you would just let your guard down and trust the God who made you and loves you, maybe you could allow it to speak for itself. God does not hate women; He loves women. He’s not a misogynist no matter what conclusion you come to. GOD IS NOT AGAINST YOU. It’s okay to just listen to what He has to say.
Watch the series. If you have more knowledge, wisdom, or understanding about a specific verse, you can share it when it’s covered. Dismissing people’s thoughts on the topic because you have an idea of the conclusions they’ve come to before hearing what they have to say isn’t helping anyone. You wouldn’t want Mike Winger, me, or anyone else to do that to you. Remember, one of the fruits of the Spirit is patience.
Exactly! I believe what the Bible says. We are smart and capable of doing great things as women but God wanted his church to have a certain way of operating. And it wasn’t because women were “less than”. But people in the “left” of this go nuts and call you misogynistic and sexist while people on the “right” have dangerous control freak red flags because they are heavy on the “I want you to submit to me” part but don’t actually act worthy of any respectable “submission”
For what it's worth, I think you misread the passage you quoted at 31:12 ("There is no area in which a woman has any authority, privilege or opportunity that a man is denied") You seem to interpret that as her saying that a man has complete authority over every aspect of a woman's life, and she has none. But that's not how I heard it at all. It sounded to me like she was saying that in the Venn diagram of opportunities, privileges, and areas of authority men and women have, the woman's circle is entirely subsumed by the man's- there are plenty of things that are for men only, but nothing that is only for women. Maybe there was further explanation in the book that led you to your conclusion, but based solely on that quote, that's how I understood it.
I started dating my girlfriend a year ago and began attending her church regularly. Coming from a complimentarian church, I was shocked to see a female pastor preach on a Sunday morning one service. I learned that there are a number of female pastors on staff, but the head pastor is a man.
I wanted to hear the head pastor’s reasoning for this, being full willing to change my views should he show me biblical evidence, so I came into his office one morning and asked why he was egalitarian. He said he isn’t egalitarian, he’s complimentarian. That confused me.
He went on to say that he refuses to call members that make the decisions for the church “elders,” because there are women on the board. Apparently this was his attempt to be biblical. To me, it seems like creating loopholes around scripture.
Now I’m in a dilemma about whether or not I should continue attending. I don’t have another church and my girlfriend grew up at this church, so I can’t just ask her to leave. I’ve gotten more out of this church than I have at the church I grew up in for 19 years. I really don’t know what the right answer is. I’m hoping this series will give me some good insight and wisdom on how to approach this delicate topic.
I think you have answered your own question. “You’ve gotten more out of this church than your other church of 19 years”. You will not find a church that is 100% biblical in their teaching. The Bible is very complex. As Mike has said this is a secondary issue, if you are growing and learning in your church that is your answer. Prayers for answers on your journey.
I partially agree with Pauline, though I want to emphasize the importance again of seeking God’s word. Elders are there to steer the church. The quality of a church is a reflection of it’s leadership. Keep this in mind. Not saying you should leave the church, but stick to the biblical view at least in your heart I think
I agree with Christian Bell; perhaps bringing up a case for the importance of elders in the church utilizing scripture to the Head Pastor. The outcome of that interaction can give you a clearer view of what has priority.
You just said that the head pastor is sticking his head in the sand so he doesnt have to confront the scripture that tells him hes wrong. How do you know anything else they are teaching you is from the bible? How do you know they arent misleading you on other things? You already know how he handles things he doesnt like.
@@paulineewert7492 I think that’s where I’m at on the issue. I just want to honor God with what I decide. I appreciate your input and prayers!
What's clear from the introduction is how all of the "world" systems that God's people have bought into have complicated things so drastically. There is a lot missed because the Spirit of God is not allowed to lead. He leads by His Word, but He can also do whatever He pleases and use whomever He wants. The key for the believer is to be willing to hear God's voice through, Balam, his donkey, a woman, or a man. The key also for every believer is to follow the Spirit of God in your own ministry. He gives the gifts, and He leads. And for all who are willing, reading His word with an honest heart, and ready to quickly obey, He will lead faithfully.
Hi Pastor Mike. This is my first-ever comment on any TH-cam video.
I have a lot of appreciation and respect for you and your ministry. I’ve watched most of your videos and appreciate your thoughtfulness in approaching Scripture, your steady posture of submission to God’s Word, and your apparent care for your listeners as people. I’ve looked forward to this teaching series since you first announced you were researching the topic, and I’m eager to hear how your processing develops through the following videos.
I’m an unmarried female worker, serving in Bible translation in a third-world country, where my role includes helping a team of male translators understand Scripture so that they can translate it accurately into their own language.
I grew up strongly complementarian, and as long as I can remember, I’ve seen great beauty in submission (though it can be hard in practice).
During my seminary studies in preparation for the mission field, I pushed back against a theology professor who challenged my complementarian perspective of women in church leadership. That turned into an intermittent year-long dialogue with him, conversations with 50+ people (mainly instructors and fellow students), and months of intense scholarly research, topped off with a 40-page research paper… just to help my own memory when I would inevitably forget the arguments down the line. I needed to try to understand the issues more deeply, because the implications for my life and ministry were/are significant, and I am committed to submitting to what Scripture says on the issue.
Like you, I found that there are heated emotions and many bad arguments from both sides. But I eventually landed on a nuanced understanding of Scripture, where I’m firmly “complementarian” with regard to marriage relationships but “egalitarian” with regard to roles in the local church and ministry. My understanding of 1 Corinthians 11 was fundamental to that conclusion (sort of along the lines of Anthony Thiselton’s view in his commentary on the text). My professor’s stance is that my position is untenable - that I can’t straddle between the two “camps” - but that is where I’ve been settled for the past few years. I don’t see any way to budge on my complementarian understanding of marriage roles in Scripture, so I can’t see that I’d ever become fully egalitarian. But I do see in Scripture a leveling of gender-based hierarchy in the church, with significant implications and applications for life and ministry. Still, I am open to learning more.
All that to say: Thank you for setting apart the time to dig into these issues, and I look forward to your coming videos. May God guide your understanding and your words, and may you be encouraged in your ministry.
Grace and peace to you from a fellow servant in Christ.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error.
The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression."
The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well.
For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
When we give the authority to only men to be able to teach the Bible, we are not obeying Jesus commission and denying the power of the Holy Spirit to illuminate women in the Words of God and the ability to teach it. You remove the image creation that God created both, man and woman in His image and gave the intelligence and qualities to both alike. I ‘m willing to hear both, man and woman who teach the Gospel of salvation because they are sent for my spiritual growth. What is important is to be able to discern what they are teaching, many men teachers teach wrong doctrines , and thousands believe them, so, it is not the sex of the teacher but what it is preached that should be judged .
I can always depend on Mike Winger to flush out cultural hot topics and study God's Word in order to find what more closely aligns with the Bible, BUT in a loving manner.
He really is a blessing
This is exactly what I needed. I'm going to be married soon and I gotta read up. So you're the best.
Thank you :)
@SlamScum to what?
This is easily my biggest struggle with Scripture right now. Pastor Mike, the fact that you have released this is a true blessing, and I thank the Lord for your ministry.
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 This is impossible to read without splitting into paragraphs. I’d recommend doing so in the future.
@@borisvandruff7532 I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested
:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error.
The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression."
The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well.
For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@@JoanDArc77 So good, thanks for ACTUALLY diving into the Word!
@@JoanDArc77 You can stop copying and pasting now.
I really can't tell if most of the comments are bots or just average brainwashed christains.
I’m really interested in hearing your perspective on head coverings. I agree that we shouldn’t bypass scripture, but why is it okay to bypass the passage about head coverings (a gendered passage), and the passage about elders being required to have obedient / believing children, but not others? Genuinely asking.
Hi! I don’t know Pastor Mike’s perspective and I’d also be interested in hearing it, but to my understanding head coverings were something specific to that culture. If we wore head coverings now, it wouldn’t have the same meanings that it held then. Kind of like [not eating] food sacrificed to idols. That whole topic is mentioned a bunch but we hardly see that in our current culture.
When we have cultural topics in the Bible, instead of applying those specific culture rules (for lack of a better word), we take away and apply the overall principles.
So for [not eating] food sacrificed idols the principle is to love your neighbor. Don’t cause them to stumble in their beliefs even if something doesn’t mean anything to us.
As far as head coverings go, the overall principle is modesty, love, and respect for God and our husbands. (Haven’t read that passage in awhile so I’m just using my memory… something like that though). I’m pretty sure it was also about not doing what pagan women were doing at that time (I.e. not covering their heads/ shaving their heads).
Hope that helps!
This is so simple ! In 1 Cor ch 11, the ONLY covering mentioned for a woman's head is her hair ! There is no mention of hats !
Whatever you are taught in church, study the Bible in prayer (Prov 2:1-6) to see if it is correct, establish doctrine by reasoning logically from the scripture (Acts 17:2). Do not accept theologically imposed interpretations !
Do not add to God's Word ! (Prov 30:5,6)
Thank you so much Mike for going ...”there” on this topic and your willingness to talk about this
I am really looking forward to this series. As a woman who has been labeled as blunt and outspoken, it has been difficult feeling called to teach others about Jesus. I want to serve the Lord the way He designed me to, and this topic has really hindered me and kept me from sharing my faith. I honestly want to follow the Lord authentically regardless and to finally have a better understanding of this! So, thank you so very much for diving into this topic!
I recently posted this to Mike and considering your own personal challenges with this issue, you might be interested:
Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor11:5 exhorting them to pray or prophesy publicly with a head covering, and in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea.
The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word.
Once the mistranslation is corrected in those 2 verses, all the contradictions with other scriptures instantly ceases - all that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses along with others that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine that subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and to many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
Woman can lead in the Bible. I have tons of materials on this if you would like me to send it to you. I always appreciate someone debating something but as a woman you can preach and teach 100%
!×A33³!
Have you considered teaching in a school and not a church setting?
@Joan D'Arc thank you for your thoughtful and well written response.
I read a book years ago called "Left Brain, Right Brain" which was about the findings of scientists while studying mostly split-brained patients, who are people who have had their corpus callosum cut so that the left and right halves of their brain could not communicate through it. There was a chapter about differences in the brain that are effected by testosterone and estrogen. One of the things they brought out is that women have thicker corpus callosums and use both halves of their brain moreso then men. They found this helped women to think things through more thoroughly but also made it take longer to come to a decision and more often then men would not be able to decide. Men could come to conclusion more easily but were more prone to jumping to wrong conclusions.
To me this makes at least one aspect clear. Men are natural decision makers and therefore leaders. While women are natural advisors.
I've also studied personality differences. We are shaped some by environment or genetics, but there definitely is a wild-card factor in what basic personality we get. And I think this boils down in part to ....well let me give the illustration of how different computers are built to handle certain tasks better, some better for data access would be not a good fit for a graphics heavy use. Likewise, our minds have software and hardware that prioritizes brain function differently. Some of these are tied to gender. And this again came up in the Left Brain, Right Brain book. They found that certain functions did better with a mid-range of testosterone, and others with high estrogen. So that men with less testosterone hit that mid range and women with high testosterone hit that mid range. (Research was still ongoing and there could very well also be abilities that do better with less estrogen or whatever.) While overall men and women, the higher the estrogen, the better in those areas it was tied to. It isn't an all or none scenerio, but a range scenario. Everybody has testosterone and estrogen but our ranges differ along with resulting abilities. This results in humanity being able to accomplish many different things. It provides both flexibility and specialization.
It's like the difference between only having a swiss army knife or instead having a workshop with many varieties of tools for different purposes. And of these, men and women are the first subsets of specialization.
Didn’t that book also have a case with a person where the right part of the brain was Christian the left part of the brain was atheist?
@@chadvandam7179 ummmm, no. But there are a number of books about the halves of the brain. The book I read was written in the 90s.
Sounds very interesting. Who wrote the book Left Brain Right Brain?
@@brucetenhave6952 i wish i could remember, i found it in the science section and it had a red-orange cover, that's as far as my memory goes for the book cover though, and I'm bad at remembering names. I tried looking it up again and there are a number of similarly named books, I'm not 100% sure (I'd have to be able to read parts again) but I think it may be the one by James Iaccino.
This makes so much sense I really like it. Biblically women do have to submit to their husbands unless it’s a bad and unGodly decision. We are to advise our husbands as well and they make decisions based on that. It should be a team not a dictatorship. Women are not powerless in a marriage either.
I wish there were a study even remotely close to this in german. I realized how often the problem of bypassing the Bibel is actually present in the discussions here.
I am excited about the series!
Maybe you can translate. That would be a lot of work but maybe you could translate clips if Mike is ok with it.
@@gigahorse1475 Sure, but having short clips is not really the problem. The problem is, that there is no big in-depth bible study like this series. I mean, there is some stuff, but at some point, there is one of these bypasses included.
This is not a secondary issue. I believe your saying that in order not to lose followers. Be strong stand for truth or waver.
I agree. Never would I put myself under female pastors. Straight biblical view. Even from Greek translation text.
Thank you Pastor Winger for being faithful to God's Word and not making concessions to culture and the world. You are very needed in these hours of history.
So well stated. I second this comment!
Thank you so much for taking on this subject. I am a female and have been in a few different leadership roles, children ministry, women's ministry, youth ministry and outreach. I have been told that I have a gift of teaching and have wanted to study deeper and share what I find so much about God, with others but have struggled so much with both sides of the debate about women in ministry that I have held back. I have a burning desire to share Gods word, but I don't want to be in disobedience to Him either. Thank you for taking the time and going through with the attitude of 'let scripture be scripture.' so I know I can trust as I go through this study with you. Thank you all the way from Australia 🦘🌏
Kay, be careful: there's a difference between the Bible original texts and what people interested in misogyny mistranslate. Women in the Bible were appointed to every rank a man was: deacon, priest, bishop, apostle, etc. Women being in ordained ministry *is* Biblical. Think about it: Iounnia was an apostle; Phoebe a deaconness; Mary Magdalene a disciple; and we have several women referred to as "priest" in the female form. And now think of this: the first person to teach the letter of Paul to the Romans was the very same woman who delivered the letter to them: the deaconess Phoebe. In antiquity, delivering a letter meant reading and explaining it. So, if you feel called by God to teach, you're in your Biblical rights to do so.
I don't think we can disregard History including Jewish History in this matter. Miriam was mentioned as a leader to the people of Israel alongside Moses and Aaron, Deborah was a Judge appointed by God as a leader of the Jewish people. everyone went to her to be lead, both men and women. Also whi would God give someone a teaching gift if it was for them to be quiet? It's dangerous to pick and chose which Bible texts we look at to weight in on a matter, we don't know the context of Paul's teachings at the time but we do know that God doesn't have a double mind. If He anointed Deborah he can anoint a woman today too, plus He made a donkey talk! How can we ever doubt that He does as he pleases and uses whomever he wants?
@@dstv1016 Pretty sure you just don't know Greek. That's her name (you might see it in English as June, Junia, or even Jounias, but the proper way to render it is Iounnia). She is named in Romans 16.7
@@dstv1016 I'm a Mexican, but that hardly matters, because I don't need to be an ancient Greek to know Greek. I just needed to study it.
Bless you, sister. I'm about to watch the rest of this series as well. Starting with the attitude of following God's will is the best foundation. I refused to submit to God out of personal pride but God has humbled me and my life has improved in so many ways. My wife is traditional and I was not living up to my duties as her husband which caused her distress and me dissatisfaction. Now I consider her so much more in everything I do and we're both happier together.
Thank you so much! This series is so refreshing! I've grown up around people who have shamed me for not understanding this content, so having someone take the time to go through and answer all of these questions is amazing!
I appreciate two things about Mike Winger. 1. He honestly examines application of the Word. 2. He uses the mind God gave him.
Thank you very much Mike - It is such a topical subject but as Christians, our starting point should always be His word. There is too much ‘thinking out of the box’ today, which is code for “the way I want things to be”. God bless as the series continues and love from us here.
I know I'm 2 months late to this lesson. Lol, but I just wanted to say Thank You for this. I have been looking for an indepth study/lecture on this topic. Just because as a woman, I have been confused by this topic. Feeling like I'm being pulled in two directions. I want to be a Egalitarian but feel pulled to be more Contrarian.
Thank you so much for this.