This video is very much my take on the issue with my main focus being no matter what it really is out of Rhaenyra's control. There will be a follow up video next week where i will delve into you guys ideas and take from the comments left on my poll and any on this video, there was some really interesting ideas you guys came up with that i feel like they need to be highlighted, so if you do have anything to add, head over to the poll in the community tab or leave it here. I will be picking a good few comments to go into.
I say no, and mostly because of Daemon's influence on Rhaenyra. She most certainly wouldn't carry out such an act without consulting him first, and although he has shown that he can be ruthless at times, I can never remember a time it was without provocation first. Even with the murder of Jaehaerys, while Jaehaerys obviously was an innocent six year old, it was still a retribution of sorts for the death of Lucerys. It’s pretty obvious that Otto’s goal is to vilify Daemon, probably even more then to scare Alicent… Given that it’s recorded within the actual texts, this means the conversation would have had at least one other witness. The only time I could say Daemon would have likely felt an overwhelming urge to try and kill one of Alicent’s kids would have been Aemond in 120 AC when he claimed Vhagar (which had been Laena’s dragon)... And I guess in hindsight, that also wouldn't have been provoked. However, killing Aemond at that point most likely wouldn’t have gone over so well, at all, so he didn't do it.
Look at Otto's wording here, "she'll have to put them to the sword." Not "she would" or "she will want to", but "she will HAVE to", because he knows how politics works, and that she will have to do it to secure her own claim, regardless of whether she wants it or not.
Nah I don’t think she was cruel enough at the start of the war, probably after Lukes death…. but Daemon would likely have found a reason and way to beforehand
This was very well put. Almost everything Otto and Alicent say are common sense in the context of a medieval world even though fans like to dismiss it as baseless fear-mongering. The whole point of a monarchy is that there is always a clear successor because of rules that are consistently held to. Even the slightiest doubt or contradictions can create problems in the long run. This is even demonstraited in ASOIAF several times. The horrible Blackfyre Rebellions happened because of the RUMOR that Daeron II was illegitimate and thus his legitimized half brothers would have a better claim. Rhaenyra has FIVE unquestionably true born dragon-riding princes to contend with. Thanks to the ascension of her father and great grandfather, her own ascension goes against precedent upheld twice over already. When people are examining the sucession in the future, these things would matter more than one dead king's wishes. A Great Council would always choose a green over Rhaenyra and her line through Jace. The truth is she's a complete rejection of the patriarchal system that is Westeros. She was an anomaly to Westeros in every way. She's a woman, she has bastards in line after her, she wasn't born as an heir apparent to the throne (when she was born women were barred from the sucession), and she wasn't crowned by the faith. There are so many objections that could be raised because of this. Aegon meanwhile is the natural successor of the system. Because of what the Greens were born to people would fight for them even if they had less dragons and even if they weren't named. Like you said, they would be a beacon for discontents of the current monarch simply by living and it's much easier to be discontented if you think the monarch is not even rightful. Even with the oaths, Rhaenyra really only got allies from formal pacts that were made or obviously dishonorable opportunists who wanted to loot the other richer side which had less than half as many dragons. Although Daemon's idea of kingship is whack and he clearly doesn't understand what made the great Targaryen kings great, he is right about one thing: The ONLY thing that will make Rhaenyra queen is dragons. Good old Fire and Blood. The other thing about this issue for Rhaenyra you have to remember is that if she does nothing her problem only gets worse. 5 princes could easily become 15 in a generation. Sprinkle in some marraiges with great houses and suddenly you have half a kingdom against you. It's also almost guarenteed that if Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron do not press their claims then their descendants somewhere down the line will, simply because an argument could be made. Whose to say Rhaenyra's legitimate children or their descendants don't challenge the illegitimate Strong line? "They would never do that" is not enough. Near absolute power is on the line! People whispering in your ear that you should be king could get to you no matter how loyal you are. Best friends becoming worst enemies over power is medieval England 101 after all. Suddenly you can also see why Jace marrying Helaena solves nothing. It's merely hollow good faith. It still leaves the issue of Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, and their descendants. It's not simply having blood on the Iron Throne or good faith. It's about who among the blooded has the best claim.
But at the end of the day the greens knew this. Rhaenyra was already alive and named heir to the throne. Then they threw in Aegon, Helaena, Aemond and Daeron. They didn’t have to agree to marry into the Targaryen dynasty but they did. They knew the risks and knowingly took the risk of sacrificing Alicents children. Let’s not pretend like Aegon was running around before Rhaenyra was the heir. Otto made Rhaenyra heir over Daemom and didn’t care for male primogeniture. Then came Aegon and he’s now in favour of male primogeniture. I’m sorry but if Alicent and Otto speak common sense then they always knew adding her children into the mix will almost certainly put them at risk and make Rhaenyra more dangerous. They knew this and continued, one could argue they’re just as complicit in the deaths of Aegon, Aemond, Helaena and Daeron as the blacks are.
Right, you have made some very good points here. So is it safe to say that Otto wanted to paint Daemon as a villain first and foremost before anything else? Let's face it, no way Rhaenyra makes a decision to murder Alicent's children without consulting him first. Daemon has shown that he can be ruthless, but it was always when he was provoked first. For this reason, I truly believe Rhaenyra intended to come to King's Landing after her father died, and allow the Targaryen's to pledge fealty. If they did, there is no problem, immediately anyway. But I agree with you that her own ascension goes against precedent, and the succession would be forever in turmoil if she took the thrown. She had to have known this personally, right? Why would you want to rule having to always watch your back, apparently power was that important to her? She had already left Kings Landing, she ruled the seat at Dragonstone, and I'm sure they would have been willing to give her more title's and land. She could have just lived out her life comfortably and never have made a deal of it. I never quite understood how that worked anyway, did other King's name their heir's in the past? I was just wondering if this problem had occurred already in Westeros history, and if it did, how was it resolved?
@@joshuaadams6565 You can't act like Otto and Alicent are unique ones for being in this situation. The reality is that, if not them, then someone would marry into House Targaryen, and more likely than not, would give Viserys sons. What nobody expected was Viserys keeping Rhaenyra the heir after the birth of 3 legitimate sons.
@@Jacaerys1no Visery ignored it. Otto gave him that option when Aegon became 2 and his age doesn't matter just betroth them until he reaches age (this is a pretty normal thing that happened) and Viserys literally shot it down.
Another good historical example of being forced to dispose of rival heirs that’s not so shrouded in mystery is Lady Jane Grey. Mary I knew Jane had just been a puppet controlled by power hungry men who didn’t want Mary in the throne and that Jane had been an unwilling participant. Mary didn’t want to execute her for something she’s been forced into so she kept Jane under house arrest at first. Then, another rebellion tried (and failed) to dethrone Mary and replace her with Jane. Jane played no part on it but it became painfully clear to Mary that, as long as Jane lived, she would always be a figurehead for rebels and that Mary would look weak if she didn’t nip it in the bud now. So, very reluctantly, Mary had Jane executed. So, Rhaenyra may not want to kill Alicent’s children at first but, if too many rebellions happened while they lived and if sparing them made her look weak, she may well have no choice but to get rid of them one way or another.
If rhaenyras bastards were to ascend the throne uncontested Aegon II, Aemond, Daeron, Malor and jahaerys will have to die, and no amount of “rhaenyra would never do that🙄” is gonna change that situation because that is the way of this universe, let’s be generous and say she doesn’t (she seems to be incompetent as is so it’s not out of character for her) there is no way in hell daemon allows those boys to live long enough to pose a claim to the throne.
@@kiyoshi6739well the boys did admire there older half brothers so I believe the lords would’ve sought them out and they would’ve failed (because why would they usurp the brothers they grew up with and admired) or at least I believe the young lads to be loyal and would fight for there brothers claim if needed which is why my original comment stands, daemons sons would’ve refused which will bring the lords of the realm right back to the previous kings TRUE BORN SONS (and grandsons they have a lot to choose from) which meant this war was gonna happen anyway we spin it.
I seem to recall when Aemond lost his eye, Rhaenyra advocated for him to be tortured for calling out her sons' bastardy, if she could want that for a child then it's not unthinkable that she could also want him and his brothers eliminated, especially given that the whole realm knows that her own sons as bastards, she would have no choice but to remove any legitimate Targaryen princes if she wished for the position of Jaecaerys to be secure as heir.
They created a self fulfilling prophecy. If they weren’t so relentless with questioning her as viserys heir then she wouldn’t have to do that. I’m not saying she’s right for saying to sharply question Aemond but Aemond and Aegon aren’t innocent. Truth or lie, calling Rhaenyras sons bastards can also end in Rhaenyras sons deaths. Where is the trial? When did the greens ever try to go about it legitimately? Literally Never. As for the reality, Rhaenyra was willing to send Aegon to the wall at the start of the dance. Even after taking Kingslanding she never put Alicent or Helaena to the sword. She blamed Otto and took his head. Yet she spared her step mother even after everything she did, that speaks volumes. The greens took Luke, Arrax, Rhaenys, Meleys, jace, Vermax, Stormcloud… only then did Rhaenyra turn cold. The greens were so fast to kill Rhaenyras family and dragons. Let’s also remember how Rhaenyra asked to sharply question Aemond, but it was Alicent who demanded to carve a child’s eye out. Let’s remember that Aemond later proposed that Luke carves his own eye out or he’ll do it himself. No idea why Rhaenyra is held to such high standards. Daemom is chopping off heads, even Viserys is taking tongues… Rhaenyra said to interrogate Aemond and she’s the worst. SMH
I agree, she is the worst... Why the hell would she want to rule at that point if she isn't going to kill off all the Targaren's? Did she think she could come back, have Otto beheaded, lock all of them in chains, and later they'd be like "oh, that was totally cool what you did, Rhaenyra." She should have let bygones be bygones and stayed on her island home. Her family would have been fine, and she'd have got to watch them all grow up... But no, power is more important apparently to Rhaenyra. She chose to put her entire family in danger for her own selfish ambition's. She knew what a huge problem all of this was going to cause, but she didn't care..
@@joshuaadams6565the reason she didn't kill her step mom and sister is because they were great hostages to keep aemond from burning kingslandings fleet or army while daemond is away, ordering your own brother's torture means you do not care of his wellbeing. she didn't even bat an eye when she said it even after learning 4 of them beat him up and cut his eye. what does that tell you about a person 😂
@BuckeyeMike23 the prophecy of the song of ice and fire (which George said is canon) is hardly a selfish ambition. Also she was considering terms before aemond killed luke and aegon threw a party (something both allicent and otto chided aemond for).
@mesa577 so why not keep aemonds grandfather hostage too? Also she didn't need hostages to defend against aemond, she had three dragons in kings landing and daemon with caraxes and nettles with sheepstealer hunting vhagar. That's 5 vs 1. Not even aemond wanted to risk that.
Hey, let’s give Ned some more credit since he’s also trying to steer Robert away from killing Targaryen spawn in general for some pretty personal reasons.
The high road is pretty but you’ll have a hard time marching your army down that road. It is true I do give Ned a lot credit but you have to understand southern politics don’t see the same way the north does.
She never killed Allicent when she took Kings Landing and she didn't want to rush to war in the DoTD. However I could imagine Damon doing it though. Twin could have take the Targareyons children in to his custody and held them as hostages at Casterly Rock to keep Dorne loyal. It would have given him a great degree of leverage.
The Rhaenyra of the show might not but the Rhaenyra of F&B would. She eliminated every obstacle in her way. She killed Vaemond, fed his corpse to her dragon and is rumoured to have killed Laenor. Power corrupts, even thought she doesn't want to kill them, she will have to if she want her bastards to rule after her.
The feeding of the corpse was likely a rumour: why would Daemon first decapitate someone, then drag their body to Dragonstone? At most, he brought Rhaenyra's his head. Funny how all the most outrageous things that Rhaenyra supposedly did, had not even a third hand witness. Vaemond was a moron, because even If Rhaenyra's children had been bastards (unlikely for Jace, because Harwin had a broken collarbone and elbow at the time of Jace's conseption, so no excuse to be around Rhaenyra at the right time) *Vemond still wouldn't have gotten* the Seat: Laenor leaving no heirs, next in line is his older sister Laena, and her children (Westros inheritance goes that if there are no male children, next in line are the female children, not an uncle) Meaning Laena's twing girls would inherit, not Vemond. And those twins are married to... Jace and Luce. No matter how you twist it, Velorian House belongs to Daemon's and Rhaenyra's children.
I would say no, she's never acted like she wanted them to die. People think she showed that she would because she said aemond should be sharply questioned, I felt like rhaenyra said that because she knew he heard that from Alicent. As far as alicent goes I get why she thought so due to her dad but she also spent 10 years away from her father so that's not even an excuse. Idk if aegon would be a threat if he accepted his sister as queen because most of westeros sided with rhaenyra in dance of dragons. But you're right other people and their interest would always try to use that. Otto is the one who put his daughter in that situation.
Even as a tentative green supporter no I don’t think she would, although it’s understandable and even reasonable given the medieval period the setting is in that even if she wouldn’t just order them beheaded when she became queen, she could instead find some excuse down the line that could point toward potential treason and execute them for that, such a thing did happen in real world medieval times after all
I don’t know if she’d outright kill them but I could definitely see Rhaenyra sending Alicent and Otto away back to old town or something. Then she would keep one or two of alicent’s children as her (cough hostages cough) I mean wards/cup bearers. Maybe have fan boy aemond serve as daemon’s squire just to keep an eye on him.
That's the thing, if she didn't kill all of them, she would have constantly had to have been watching her back. Who would even want to rule under those circumstances? The people already whispered that her son's were bastard's, and that wasn't going to suddenly go away. They would all know that her taking power went against everything the patriarchy stood for in Westeros.
it will go down to blood either way someone will die, aegon and his siblings just have that good of a claim to incite rebellion. even if they don't want it personally. which aegon doesn't.
@@mike.n.n.7723Tell that to the OG character that is now portraying the twin lannisters sir Hugh. He was middle aged man before being knighted due to his part in Jon Arryn’s death. Aemond is without doubt better skilled then 95% of characters but age doesn’t matter.
There's many examples in history (well, chinese history) of a brother or uncle usurping power but not killing the deposed killing. They keep him caged and let him die of old age, so they don't get the kinslayer moniker. So killing is not the only solution.
@@mesa577 It's better for the usurper. He or she is labelled as "magnanimous" and "merciful". The usurpee lives a good life in a large castle which they can never leave . Win-win ^_^
Even if she didn't, we gotta remember that her first three sons are illegitimate. Who's to say that jace's kids or grandchildren wouldn't kill off the true bloodline to keep the throne. That's goes for aegon and his children, brothers, any kids that they would have. And the bloodline by her 2 younger sons as well.
The true bloodline no the half breed blood line and them basterds of nrya there kids would have been pure cuz of Bela and rheana pure blood then Jaces and Luke's half blood mix with it
@@Daniel-ug4pu Rhaenyra wasn't pure blood either. Her mother was Aemma Arryn not Aemma Targaryen. Aegon the conquerer had a partly Velaryon mother whose last name was Velaryon. No one of the Targaryens we see is pureblodded. Literally no one. Not Daemon, not Viserys not ecen Aegon the bloddy conquerer himself. So what exactly is your argument here? Jace can't inherit, because he is illegitimate, meaning Rhaenyra wasn't married to Harwin Strong. If he gets legitimized his name will be Jaecerys Strong and he will have a claim to Harrenhal, not the iron throne. And that is a problem.
Show Rhaenerya was either a part of or complacent in the plot to end a servant so they could use his body to fake Laenor’s demise. So show Rhaenerya either would’ve done that to her brothers or let it happen without consequences to the person/people who did it.
You could also argue that this applies to Rhaenyra's own children as well. Given that Jace, Luke & Joffrey are all illegitimate, and that most people at the very least suspect it, her children with Daemon could inadvertently be at risk thanks to their mother's decision on who to have kids with.
If Rhaenyra had ascended uncontested, at the very best Aemond, Aegon, Daeron, Jaehaerys and Maelor would be sent to the wall. Likely the eldest would be put to death and the younger kept as hostages. Then some tragedy would befall Jace Luke and Joff, because do you really think Daemon is going to let bastards inherit over his trueborn sons? Hell nah.
Very interesting take I do agree with your take. I like the fact you point out what Tywin did at the end of the war. Yet we all don’t agree but in order for peace to the realm things like that have to be done. Could say that about the North in the show once Robb died Roose want to finish and kill the Stark boys for sure because he knew his hold on the north would never be secure . As for both book and show I do think Rhaenyra would of stop Daemon but as for her camp and some other people around her can’t be to sure about that. But a perfect example of challenge to the throne is the whole blackfyre rebellion a simple action by giving away the king sword and rumor his true born son wasn’t legit rallied people to Daemon Blackfyre side..
It's baffling to me that people say that "she would have to because it's a medieval setting". The reason this happened in the real world even when claimants didn't want the throne is because the lords had armies and could force the issue. The Targaryens have fucking dragons. Unless another dragon-riding claimant wanted the throne there was nothing the lords could have done. Aegon doesn't even want the throne until he is forced onto it by his mother and even with how much Aemond wanted to be king he wouldn't kill Aegon to get it.
Issue is: 1) Rhaenyra has proven herself to not be a nice person, having mocked and allowed a suitor to get into a duel with someone else and end with a bracken dying, asking for her brother who just lost a eye to be tortured, and many times showing zero regard for others. 2)she goes against the very thing that got her father made king, and tradition as a whole, since the rule is a son before sister, and if she is made queen, then there is huge crisis as how many women could attempt to usurp their brother, nephew, etc all of a sudden. 3) Alicent has ruled as queen for a long time, has done duty, been a exemplary queen, is well liked by her people and has stepped in and managed things plus attended small councils while Rhaenyra fucked off and did nothing to help manage the realm or make alliances or allies with lords. 4) Her kids are bastards, and every one can tell, no one will like the idea of a bastard as the next king. 5) She literally got married very soon after her husband died, and most believe she did order his death, to her uncle of all people who everyone dislikes and is all but certain killed his first wife, murdered Vaemond without even permission in the throne room, was exiled at least twice, attempted to steal a dragon egg and marry another woman while married.Who will also be king consort, a big unpopular move. 6) She doesn’t support women ruling, she is a one for me none for the rest person, so even her cousin Aunt Arryn isn’t too pleased with her. 7) Alicent has four true children, none bastards not even the blacks can say so, three sons of Viserys and who have dragons of their own. 8) Daemon is incredibly dismissive of the greens, and hates Otto with a passion, he would want them dead. 9) If Rhaenyra is crowned, her siblings will have support, and if she’s unpopular they’ll rally around them to replace her, also they’ll have far more children soon, with Heleana having three already, who would have claim as they are the grandchildren of Viserys, two of which are male, the son of Aegon the first son of Viserys, and all true born. 10) If there is a great council needed as some die by chance, like if Rhaenyra herself dies, suddenly the greens will be chosen as without Rhaenyra all the bastard children of hers have will be what allies they already had, against true born older, more capable Targaryens.
What made Viserys a king, was that previous king, Jaehaerys I, *chose* and appointed Viserys as his heir. Just like Viserys then appointed and *chose* Rhaenyra as his heir. By blood, Rhenys would've been the ruler. But she wasn't, not because she was a woman, but because Jaehaerys *chose* Viserys. In Westros you choose your own heir. Often it's the oldest child, but if the son is not suitable, a lord can name his youngest daughter over his older sons, and that would've been it. That is the Westrosi law.
@@Sienisotayes but jaehaerys also showed sexism towards his own children thinking it would last by constantly keeping the marriages in the family and the crown and since visery’s was married to ammena at the time and she was pregnant it never considered that perhaps she would die not giving birth to a male heir so visery’s would have to marry outside of the family again bringing in outsider blood. The moment jaeharys called for council is the moment every Targaryen woman became a breeder and lost the power that visenya and rhaeyns had as aegon the conqueror wife’s they had more power as queens then any other ruler they were more then just wives they were fighter’s great ones to both were dragon riders and visenya created the kings guard. Over time all the Targaryen women became weak didn’t know how to lift a sword yeah they were dragon riders but that was it visenya would’ve been pissed at how the legacy of women in her house became.
Add to it, Aemond and Daeron would marry non-Targaryan houses, and it just increases the threat that the lords would rally against Rhaenyra, or rather, her bastard done.
No. Rhaenyra actually took a while to want her siblings dead. Even when she took Kingslanding she never put Alicent or Helaena to the sword unlike Otto. She wasn’t nice to her step mother by any means but she didn’t kill her which speak volumes. At first she was willing to forgive Aegon and send him to the wall. But then she kept losing family members and dragons to the greens. After the death of Luke, Arrax, Rhaenys, Meleys, Jace, Vermax and Stormcloud only then did she want Aegon and Aemonds heads. The greens were much more blood thirsty than Rhaenyra but Rhaenyra also had Daemon. Daemon is another story, he would most likely want all the greens dead… even the children.
did you watch the vid ?, also what makes you think daemon would ever let someone ve king other than his sons. the green were only defending themselves because of the situation at hand that viserys made, and the threat daemon and his ambitions make the deaths of rhaenerys kids were going to happen regardless because of viserys refusal to make aegon heir.
I'll always point out that if we believe Daemon was 'Prince of the City' and 'Lord Flea Bottom' and as some think he had people assassinate Rhea Royce and make it look like an accident even to her. However he only had Blood and Cheese target the sons as opposed to going after Aegon, Daeron or Aemond, I highly doubt he was going to disobey Rhaenyra to kill her siblings. The show funny enough goes even further to show this. Daemon hates no one on Planetos more than Otto Hightower, if Daemon were made hand you and I both know he'd jump out of the nearest window to an already waiting Caraxes to B-line it to Oldtown and kill Otto. But in the show, he relents and doesn't immediately disobey Rhaenyra to kill Otto, summoning Caraxes if he needed. So while yes, the issue of people supporting Aegon II would exist, I don't think it exists from Daemon, given that show Daemon who in my opinion is a very unflattering portrayal of the bad/potential bad things the character did, is still shown to be obedient to Rhaenyra.
TV series Rhaenyra? Maybe just her half brothers; she really disregarded Helaena. Book Rhaenyra? YES. ESPECIALLY her half brothers. In F & B, she never refers to Alicent's sons as her brothers, only as her half brothers, but considers Helaena her dear sister. Of course, to off her half brothers, she'd have to do the same for Aegon's children with Helaena, well, the ones remaining after Blood and Cheese do their job.
I think Otto didnt even need to kill Rhaenyra or her childeren. The fact that those childeren are bastard and that Rhaenyra is viewed as a whore would be enough to disqualify her.
Yep.Fact is I don’t think ant of the lords would have accepted her as queen, she married her uncle who they all hate and have now given the very thing they didn’t want to him, being king, she hasn’t bothered to make any friends or allies besides the Velaryons, the Starks for example only do so out of oaths but don’t seem particularly enthusiastic to support her and only did with the marriage promise, and she has 3 bastard children.No one wants a bastard as king.If not in her reign, when her son becomes king he would be overthrown or mysteriously killed.
Also I can see that you are not so quick to dismiss Young Griff as Rhaegar's son. I found a video of GRRM being interviewed about the name his fans have come up for Young Griff & GRRM himself said he wouldn't be too sure about that nickname fitting him. Thanks for all the great videos
Rhaenyra wouldn't do that? Do you remember her calling for Aemond to be tortured after her son carved his eye out of his head? Did you forget what she did to Maelor? He was a toddler! We see exactly what kind of person she is. She went into a "black fury" that caused her to lose her daughter when she found out Aegon took the throne. She couldn't even keep a level head long enough to keep her unborn child safe. Yes, she would 100% have them put to the sword.
Pre-Dance of Dragons, no she wouldn't have. After Lucaerys was slain by Aemond, she definitely would've. She was broken and mad after that point. In the beginning, Otto was heavily projecting his "fears" onto Alicent to gaslight her and her kids. In reality *he* had no issue slaying Rhaenyra and her children. "Be quick, and be clean." - Otto High Tower
I don’t think Rhay let Alicent live because, “my father once loved you”. I think she let her live so that she could watch all of her sons die and be forced to watch as Rhay gets crowned as Queen. I don’t think keeping Alicent captive was a mercy, it was torture
Yes, she would. Even if she were reluctant, in the end she would kill them. She was not a kind-hearted person. And she was under Daemon's influence as well. If Rhaenyra got the crown, it would be Daemon - the real power behind her. Otto was right about it.
For myself personally i do not think Rhaenyra, at least at the beginning. The biggest tradgy is the fact that Otto fed into Alicents fears, both of their constant telling Aegon he should be king. So they made it a self fulfilling prophacy. I do think though that if Rheanyra became queen (no usurption) Deamon would have talked to her about possibly executing Aegon, Aemond, Haelana her children and Dearon. But i do think in this scenario she would still try to find a way to get rid of their threat without killing them. The soultion being: make Aegon and Aemond to join the Nightswatch without their dragons of course, have Dearon join the citadle or the faith the same with Haelana and her children.
rhaenyra did not give infanticide vibes but it’s possibly most likely that the people in her council would’ve likely had her do some type of action against them to secure her station; harm is highly likely but perpetrator not as clear IMO
If Otto didn't want conflict he should have never pushed Alicent to marry Viserys in the first place. He put in his daughter in that position because of his personal ambition. 85 percent of this happening is Otto Hightower's fault.
@@jakarhess7129 It was Rhaenyra who offered, and Alicent said no. Ultimately, Alicent rejects the idea of marrying her daughter to what she calls, one of Rhaenyra's "plain featured" sons. She resents the fact that Rhaenyra not only has given birth to three bastard children, but seemingly is unashamed of this fact.
Otto might be right about one thing - the safety of Alicent’s children, especially her three sons, is a concern. This puts Rhaenyra’s claim in jeopardy, as someone might try to challenge it. However, casting Rhaenyra’s character onto Alicent is unfair, especially when he doesn't know her well enough as he knows Daemon. He claims that Rhaenyra will kill Alicent's children, but it's more likely that someone from Team Black or Daemon might do it in her name. Now, it is true that as long as Aegon and his brothers are alive, they will always threaten Rhaenyra claim and her children. However, she doesn't have to kill her brothers. To secure it, she can offer peaceful terms to her brothers and Alicent in exchange for allowing her to ascend the throne. Aegon kin get on a ship and go to Essos and form a new Targaryen family and a Targaryen bloodline in Essos. Aemond can join the Kingsguard, or he can join the Night’s Watch, therefore giving up his claim to the throne. Daeron can go to Oldtown and be a Maester, or he can go to Essos so there are peaceful opportunities to prevent a bloody war. But know Otto and Daemon they will rather die than bend the knee or give up their freedom.
making a second targeryan house with dragons is a death wish that would be even bloodier than the dance, and why would aemond want to abandon his ambitions and personal vendettas it just wont work out war will happen.
@@mesa577 The Targaryen‘s problem was they kept killing each other over and over again, and their entire family was being wiped out with and without dragons and they never expanded their entire family as well. They should’ve because in the present time there is only like a few Targaryen’s left ( Aemon, Bryden Rivers, Viserys , Daenerys , & Jon ). Aemond’s ambitions, and his personal vendetta is it depends if he loves his family or if he wants the throne because I believe that is the internal conflict within himself because we get to see him and Damon have the same conflict with each other. Damon chooses his family over his ambitions so the question is, would a man choose his family over his ambitions or will he do the opposite of what Damon does and that’s choose ambition over family. Besides, Alicent’s children are not the purest Targaryen’s because their blood would be diluting the Targaryen’s powers in their bond to dragons
We should also consider how it was Otto who in actually urged the small council to kill Rhaenyra and her children to avoid her supporters from raising her banner. Besides Rhaenyra even left Kingslanding to go to dragonstone even though it meant the greens would lot against her but she had very little reason to believe they would actually usurp the throne so l would say her trying to kill off Aegon children would not have been a possibility plus only the Hightowers and lannister openly oppposed her so if they urged Aegon to oppose his sister naturally she would have to cut him down
It depends on the video. The Targaryen Lore videos don't take too long, 3 or 4 hours as i have most of the stuff like pictures ready to go. The Regional history videos take a longer as i have to spend a lot more time on the research and getting pictures. The Thursday videos are on par with the regional ones. These Sunday/Monday ones depending on timezone by far take the longest as it's much more about developing new ideas and concepts rather than straight up lore. for example this script took maybe 2 days with another for research. I'd been thinking about this idea in my head for a couple of weeks now. The actual video editing is the fastest part of making the actual video with the audio editing really taking ages. It used to take me a week to make one video but once you have a workflow in place it really does speed up. Having worked in video production for 10 years before doing youtube full time really helped as i came into it with many of the skills it takes a while to pick up.
It was happened in real history. Chengis Khan created a big empire. His nominal successor was his first son Juchi Khan. But Juchi was not his son. It was a rumour and some what right. But he considered Juchi as his son and heir. When his second son Chagatai khan and many court members opposed against Juchi. Chengiz Khan selected his third son Ogedei Khan as the next great Khan.
The real question, should have been would Daemon have let Alice's children live. Rhaenyra and the white worm literally had Alice and her daughter sent to a whore house. So she is not above killing them.
That's according to mushroom whom is known for highly exaggerated sex stories. Even septon eustace, a green supporter, does not support that claim by mushroom.
A hard yes on this. She might not have wanted to, but there would have been no other way of securing her children's "birthrights" and there is no other way around it. Unfortunately, Otto was right, It is a game of thrones after all. It's more nuanced if we're talking about the show, but book Rhaenyra would have had no choice whatsoever.
@@Daniel-ug4puwe’re just using logic , let me explain- rhaenyra has 3 bastards that all lack Targaryen features meaning odds are those boys are gonna pass those ( not Targaryen ) features to their sons, MEANING THE PREVIOUS KINGS TRUE BORN SONS (that look like Targaryens) will be sought after to be king over the princesses “plain featured sons” war was inevitable when rhaenyra decided to keep having bastards and if those bastards were to ascend the throne without turmoil the previous kings true born sons and grandsons on his sons side WILL HAVE TO DIE. This isn’t a TB/TG issue we just understand the laws in the world which the story is taking place. Something the average show watchers can’t/won’t even begin to comprehend, average show watchers keep bringing modern day morals and ethics into a medieval society then act confused when people have a different perspective on situations we in modern times would be like “there’s an easy fix, just do this” that’s not how this world works THERE ARE RULES.
Clear understanding of text l would say but the same could be said for Rhaenyra should she have bent the knee considering how she was after all the first claimant to the throne and her children still possed a threat. After all it was Otto made a point to kill Rhaenyra and her children after they crowned aegon coz they knew she was the rightful queen
If Rhaenyra was smart, she would have formed a bond with her brothers when they were young. Aemond would have been especially loyal to her if she had helped him when he was dragonless.
I think in the show it makes more sense given how the ages are changes and the context of Rhaenyra and Alicents relationship is very different. Thus why she would have this detachment from Aegon. But i would have loved to a scene some king of sibling relationship between them when really they are just strangers. i can se a world where if things had played out differently someone like Daemon could have been a mentor figure to Aemond.
Even Fire and Blood itself provides a counter-example to this so evident "inevitability". The Blackfyres. Sure we are told the legitimacy rumour is false, but that couldn't be known, so for people it was a 50/50 Daeron was an unlegitimized bastard and bastard < legitimized bastard. Even with the rumour floating around, Daeron gives lands, honours and a marriage to Daemon (which is really dangerous) but never tries (neither him nor any more hawkish advisors) to kill him. It's the Blackfyre that betrays his brother, like the Greens do. Still, the line is left to their own devices and it's always them that return to annoy the Iron Throne. Even if you go to real life for every prince in the tower there's a Pragmatic Sanction where contravening traditional law a woman was to inherit the austrian lands. Some raised a stint, fought, they ended in a compromise and although Maria Theresa never got to govern the Holy Roman Empire, the actual lands were inherited through her. The alternatives line was not murdered, nothing happened. More similar, daughter inherited over brother (contravening traditional law) in Spain leading to war (Carlist war). Dude got beaten and created an alternative line (still existing, funnily enough) that caused two more wars. Yet never (before or after the rebellion) a move to murder the alternative "more legitimate claim" was made. These are from the top of my head.
Probably, under the advise of Daemon. She's not a saint, pretty much nobody (with a massive exception being King Viserys) is a good person on both sides.
I think she would have ordered the murder of Alicents children in a rage over losing her son is one thing, but if there wasn’t that installment of fear into Alicent by Otto of losing her children when Rhaeynera i honestly believe that someone would have be able to influence her into putting one of the children to the sword to secure her claim..
Y’all there is no way the greens would survive if rhaenyra became Queen. Even if Daemon spared them, some greens around aegon could still challenge blacks rule. Probably aemond. Or the common folk could just choose daeron the good. Only one of the parties could survive. And yet strangely enough, if alicent’s methods had succeeded and rhaenyra had accepted aegon’s rule, a war might have been avoided
Is no one wondering if Deamon would ever let Jace take the throne? The man is obsessed whit Valarian supremacy and blood. And the only ones more pure than his sons is him and Viserys.
Let's say Rhaenyra becomes queen under the very best circumstances. If something were to happen to her, I wonder, would Daemon attempt to take the throne? All he would have to do is agree that the Strong boys are bastards, which can't be denied. Without them, he has a better claim than anyone else.
@@kiyoshi6739 His son's would definitely become his heirs, but he's both king's younger brother and the king consort. If not, he'd be the king regent to his sons.
And Jace could never sit the throne as long as Aemond and Ageon lived and had trueborn sons every child whit the Targaryen look would pour more and more doubt on Jace and his birth hel even him and Beala having children would pour more doubt if that child turned out to be Velaryon or Targaryen looking
No. I mean this idea makes even less sense in the show than it does the book. This idea is introduced what episode…4 or 5 right? But we get a massive time jump come episode 6. Rhaenyra waiting so long to harm the kids doesn’t make any real sense in the slightest especially because the show keeps on time jumps and shows Rhaenyra to be in the more passive position.
@KaiHung-wv3ul or maybe kin slaying is taboo as all heck? Alicent is the one who raised her kids to be okay with it ( excluding Helena). Alicent is delusional and she is just using it to gaslight her kids. Why would she keep antagonizing Rhaenyra ( especially since Rhaenyra doesn't fight back) for years and years and years? And spend her time just being petty instead of actually trying to get allies for herself and her kids?
Lying to cover your creeping as a teenager is a far cry from murdering your siblings! Otto was absolutely saying RHAENYRA would have them killed. He said ‘prepare Aegon to rule or Cleve to Rhaenyra and pray for HER mercy.” Rhaenyra was no Tywin Lannister! Robert wanted to kill Dany for revenge on all Targaryens, not really politics
She wasn’t a monster. She was reactive if anything. The Greens killed all her children, husband, close relatives, and possibly her father to steal her throne.
In fire and blood whenvthe war starts she offers to let them live if they bend the knee. Also when corlys says to let them take the black, she says she wants aegon and aemonds heads since theyre responsible for the deaths of jace and luke, but doesn't mention daeron (who was just fucking around in the reach). She also does not execute allicent or helaena. Suffice it to say, i don't think she'd have killed her half siblings unprovoked.
NO. Otto told Alicent that to scare her into going along with his plan to turn her children against Rhaenyra and her children. Otto was a freakin' snake.
Otto not trying to scare her he telling her the truth do a little research on monarchies relatives die after they take the throne you mad at Otto because he sees the world he lives in?? look at daemon he murder his wife and his nephews in the books you think he wouldn’t do it to secure the throne everybody knows their bastards viserys sons and his sons will always be under threat people would always see them as the rightful kings it’s just facts rhaenyra wanted her brother tortured over a insult which was true but kinslaying beneath her?? And why wouldn’t she support her?? Why would she support her bastards who could have them killed if they become killed their bastards joffery did it to Secure the throne you mad because they chose their family over a liar who breaks thousands of years of laws and traditions and murder those who speak the truth?? The greens would have to live in their knees praying her or daemon or after her the strongboys won’t kill them s Rhaenyra stans denying that they would always be under threat is pathetic all you have to do is add up the thousands of years of laws and traditions being broken her bastards daemon and read a little bit of history add all that up and you see she/daemon/strongboys would have no other choice this video even points out what happened to rhaegar kids and the mad king kids
You're example of it happening in the main books has a major difference. Lions killed Dragons at the end of Roberts Rebellion. In the case of Rhaenyra, it would be Dragons killing Dragons. Otto was hella greedy and played his on daughter to get what he wanted. She might as well of been pinokio.
that's not the example he made though, he compared robert and deanrys/viserys to rheanyra and aegon/others. and the idea is that as long as a rival is alive the throne is not secure and rebellion is at risk as well as your family's lives.
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This video is very much my take on the issue with my main focus being no matter what it really is out of Rhaenyra's control. There will be a follow up video next week where i will delve into you guys ideas and take from the comments left on my poll and any on this video, there was some really interesting ideas you guys came up with that i feel like they need to be highlighted, so if you do have anything to add, head over to the poll in the community tab or leave it here. I will be picking a good few comments to go into.
I say no, and mostly because of Daemon's influence on Rhaenyra. She most certainly wouldn't carry out such an act without consulting him first, and although he has shown that he can be ruthless at times, I can never remember a time it was without provocation first. Even with the murder of Jaehaerys, while Jaehaerys obviously was an innocent six year old, it was still a retribution of sorts for the death of Lucerys. It’s pretty obvious that Otto’s goal is to vilify Daemon, probably even more then to scare Alicent… Given that it’s recorded within the actual texts, this means the conversation would have had at least one other witness. The only time I could say Daemon would have likely felt an overwhelming urge to try and kill one of Alicent’s kids would have been Aemond in 120 AC when he claimed Vhagar (which had been Laena’s dragon)... And I guess in hindsight, that also wouldn't have been provoked. However, killing Aemond at that point most likely wouldn’t have gone over so well, at all, so he didn't do it.
Look at Otto's wording here, "she'll have to put them to the sword." Not "she would" or "she will want to", but "she will HAVE to", because he knows how politics works, and that she will have to do it to secure her own claim, regardless of whether she wants it or not.
Nah I don’t think she was cruel enough at the start of the war, probably after Lukes death…. but Daemon would likely have found a reason and way to beforehand
I don't believe rhaenyra would kill her brothers, but daemon on the other hand....
@@valerie6046I think that’s what he means.
Exactly
@@applefly8 yea my bad; Jaces death hardened her, NOT Luke’s
This was very well put. Almost everything Otto and Alicent say are common sense in the context of a medieval world even though fans like to dismiss it as baseless fear-mongering. The whole point of a monarchy is that there is always a clear successor because of rules that are consistently held to. Even the slightiest doubt or contradictions can create problems in the long run. This is even demonstraited in ASOIAF several times. The horrible Blackfyre Rebellions happened because of the RUMOR that Daeron II was illegitimate and thus his legitimized half brothers would have a better claim.
Rhaenyra has FIVE unquestionably true born dragon-riding princes to contend with. Thanks to the ascension of her father and great grandfather, her own ascension goes against precedent upheld twice over already. When people are examining the sucession in the future, these things would matter more than one dead king's wishes. A Great Council would always choose a green over Rhaenyra and her line through Jace. The truth is she's a complete rejection of the patriarchal system that is Westeros. She was an anomaly to Westeros in every way. She's a woman, she has bastards in line after her, she wasn't born as an heir apparent to the throne (when she was born women were barred from the sucession), and she wasn't crowned by the faith. There are so many objections that could be raised because of this. Aegon meanwhile is the natural successor of the system. Because of what the Greens were born to people would fight for them even if they had less dragons and even if they weren't named. Like you said, they would be a beacon for discontents of the current monarch simply by living and it's much easier to be discontented if you think the monarch is not even rightful. Even with the oaths, Rhaenyra really only got allies from formal pacts that were made or obviously dishonorable opportunists who wanted to loot the other richer side which had less than half as many dragons. Although Daemon's idea of kingship is whack and he clearly doesn't understand what made the great Targaryen kings great, he is right about one thing: The ONLY thing that will make Rhaenyra queen is dragons. Good old Fire and Blood.
The other thing about this issue for Rhaenyra you have to remember is that if she does nothing her problem only gets worse. 5 princes could easily become 15 in a generation. Sprinkle in some marraiges with great houses and suddenly you have half a kingdom against you. It's also almost guarenteed that if Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron do not press their claims then their descendants somewhere down the line will, simply because an argument could be made. Whose to say Rhaenyra's legitimate children or their descendants don't challenge the illegitimate Strong line? "They would never do that" is not enough. Near absolute power is on the line! People whispering in your ear that you should be king could get to you no matter how loyal you are. Best friends becoming worst enemies over power is medieval England 101 after all. Suddenly you can also see why Jace marrying Helaena solves nothing. It's merely hollow good faith. It still leaves the issue of Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, and their descendants. It's not simply having blood on the Iron Throne or good faith. It's about who among the blooded has the best claim.
But at the end of the day the greens knew this. Rhaenyra was already alive and named heir to the throne. Then they threw in Aegon, Helaena, Aemond and Daeron. They didn’t have to agree to marry into the Targaryen dynasty but they did. They knew the risks and knowingly took the risk of sacrificing Alicents children. Let’s not pretend like Aegon was running around before Rhaenyra was the heir.
Otto made Rhaenyra heir over Daemom and didn’t care for male primogeniture. Then came Aegon and he’s now in favour of male primogeniture.
I’m sorry but if Alicent and Otto speak common sense then they always knew adding her children into the mix will almost certainly put them at risk and make Rhaenyra more dangerous. They knew this and continued, one could argue they’re just as complicit in the deaths of Aegon, Aemond, Helaena and Daeron as the blacks are.
Right, you have made some very good points here. So is it safe to say that Otto wanted to paint Daemon as a villain first and foremost before anything else? Let's face it, no way Rhaenyra makes a decision to murder Alicent's children without consulting him first. Daemon has shown that he can be ruthless, but it was always when he was provoked first. For this reason, I truly believe Rhaenyra intended to come to King's Landing after her father died, and allow the Targaryen's to pledge fealty. If they did, there is no problem, immediately anyway. But I agree with you that her own ascension goes against precedent, and the succession would be forever in turmoil if she took the thrown. She had to have known this personally, right? Why would you want to rule having to always watch your back, apparently power was that important to her? She had already left Kings Landing, she ruled the seat at Dragonstone, and I'm sure they would have been willing to give her more title's and land. She could have just lived out her life comfortably and never have made a deal of it. I never quite understood how that worked anyway, did other King's name their heir's in the past? I was just wondering if this problem had occurred already in Westeros history, and if it did, how was it resolved?
@@joshuaadams6565 You can't act like Otto and Alicent are unique ones for being in this situation. The reality is that, if not them, then someone would marry into House Targaryen, and more likely than not, would give Viserys sons. What nobody expected was Viserys keeping Rhaenyra the heir after the birth of 3 legitimate sons.
Actually if they didn’t want conflict they could have simply married into Rhaenyras family. It was an option they just ignored it.
@@Jacaerys1no Visery ignored it. Otto gave him that option when Aegon became 2 and his age doesn't matter just betroth them until he reaches age (this is a pretty normal thing that happened) and Viserys literally shot it down.
Another good historical example of being forced to dispose of rival heirs that’s not so shrouded in mystery is Lady Jane Grey. Mary I knew Jane had just been a puppet controlled by power hungry men who didn’t want Mary in the throne and that Jane had been an unwilling participant. Mary didn’t want to execute her for something she’s been forced into so she kept Jane under house arrest at first.
Then, another rebellion tried (and failed) to dethrone Mary and replace her with Jane. Jane played no part on it but it became painfully clear to Mary that, as long as Jane lived, she would always be a figurehead for rebels and that Mary would look weak if she didn’t nip it in the bud now. So, very reluctantly, Mary had Jane executed.
So, Rhaenyra may not want to kill Alicent’s children at first but, if too many rebellions happened while they lived and if sparing them made her look weak, she may well have no choice but to get rid of them one way or another.
If rhaenyras bastards were to ascend the throne uncontested Aegon II, Aemond, Daeron, Malor and jahaerys will have to die, and no amount of “rhaenyra would never do that🙄” is gonna change that situation because that is the way of this universe, let’s be generous and say she doesn’t (she seems to be incompetent as is so it’s not out of character for her) there is no way in hell daemon allows those boys to live long enough to pose a claim to the throne.
Not to mention the existence of Aegon III and Viserys II who would most definitely be preferred over her bastard children
@@kiyoshi6739well the boys did admire there older half brothers so I believe the lords would’ve sought them out and they would’ve failed (because why would they usurp the brothers they grew up with and admired) or at least I believe the young lads to be loyal and would fight for there brothers claim if needed which is why my original comment stands, daemons sons would’ve refused which will bring the lords of the realm right back to the previous kings TRUE BORN SONS (and grandsons they have a lot to choose from) which meant this war was gonna happen anyway we spin it.
@@youngveteran6368 yeah i tots agree
I seem to recall when Aemond lost his eye, Rhaenyra advocated for him to be tortured for calling out her sons' bastardy, if she could want that for a child then it's not unthinkable that she could also want him and his brothers eliminated, especially given that the whole realm knows that her own sons as bastards, she would have no choice but to remove any legitimate Targaryen princes if she wished for the position of Jaecaerys to be secure as heir.
They created a self fulfilling prophecy. If they weren’t so relentless with questioning her as viserys heir then she wouldn’t have to do that. I’m not saying she’s right for saying to sharply question Aemond but Aemond and Aegon aren’t innocent. Truth or lie, calling Rhaenyras sons bastards can also end in Rhaenyras sons deaths. Where is the trial? When did the greens ever try to go about it legitimately? Literally Never.
As for the reality, Rhaenyra was willing to send Aegon to the wall at the start of the dance. Even after taking Kingslanding she never put Alicent or Helaena to the sword. She blamed Otto and took his head. Yet she spared her step mother even after everything she did, that speaks volumes. The greens took Luke, Arrax, Rhaenys, Meleys, jace, Vermax, Stormcloud… only then did Rhaenyra turn cold. The greens were so fast to kill Rhaenyras family and dragons.
Let’s also remember how Rhaenyra asked to sharply question Aemond, but it was Alicent who demanded to carve a child’s eye out. Let’s remember that Aemond later proposed that Luke carves his own eye out or he’ll do it himself. No idea why Rhaenyra is held to such high standards. Daemom is chopping off heads, even Viserys is taking tongues… Rhaenyra said to interrogate Aemond and she’s the worst. SMH
I agree, she is the worst... Why the hell would she want to rule at that point if she isn't going to kill off all the Targaren's? Did she think she could come back, have Otto beheaded, lock all of them in chains, and later they'd be like "oh, that was totally cool what you did, Rhaenyra." She should have let bygones be bygones and stayed on her island home. Her family would have been fine, and she'd have got to watch them all grow up... But no, power is more important apparently to Rhaenyra. She chose to put her entire family in danger for her own selfish ambition's. She knew what a huge problem all of this was going to cause, but she didn't care..
@@joshuaadams6565the reason she didn't kill her step mom and sister is because they were great hostages to keep aemond from burning kingslandings fleet or army while daemond is away, ordering your own brother's torture means you do not care of his wellbeing. she didn't even bat an eye when she said it even after learning 4 of them beat him up and cut his eye.
what does that tell you about a person 😂
@BuckeyeMike23 the prophecy of the song of ice and fire (which George said is canon) is hardly a selfish ambition. Also she was considering terms before aemond killed luke and aegon threw a party (something both allicent and otto chided aemond for).
@mesa577 so why not keep aemonds grandfather hostage too? Also she didn't need hostages to defend against aemond, she had three dragons in kings landing and daemon with caraxes and nettles with sheepstealer hunting vhagar. That's 5 vs 1. Not even aemond wanted to risk that.
Hey, let’s give Ned some more credit since he’s also trying to steer Robert away from killing Targaryen spawn in general for some pretty personal reasons.
The high road is pretty but you’ll have a hard time marching your army down that road. It is true I do give Ned a lot credit but you have to understand southern politics don’t see the same way the north does.
She never killed Allicent when she took Kings Landing and she didn't want to rush to war in the DoTD. However I could imagine Damon doing it though. Twin could have take the Targareyons children in to his custody and held them as hostages at Casterly Rock to keep Dorne loyal. It would have given him a great degree of leverage.
The Rhaenyra of the show might not but the Rhaenyra of F&B would. She eliminated every obstacle in her way. She killed Vaemond, fed his corpse to her dragon and is rumoured to have killed Laenor. Power corrupts, even thought she doesn't want to kill them, she will have to if she want her bastards to rule after her.
The feeding of the corpse was likely a rumour: why would Daemon first decapitate someone, then drag their body to Dragonstone? At most, he brought Rhaenyra's his head. Funny how all the most outrageous things that Rhaenyra supposedly did, had not even a third hand witness.
Vaemond was a moron, because even If Rhaenyra's children had been bastards (unlikely for Jace, because Harwin had a broken collarbone and elbow at the time of Jace's conseption, so no excuse to be around Rhaenyra at the right time) *Vemond still wouldn't have gotten* the Seat:
Laenor leaving no heirs, next in line is his older sister Laena, and her children (Westros inheritance goes that if there are no male children, next in line are the female children, not an uncle) Meaning Laena's twing girls would inherit, not Vemond. And those twins are married to... Jace and Luce.
No matter how you twist it, Velorian House belongs to Daemon's and Rhaenyra's children.
Rhaenyra was never rumored to have murdered Laaenor in F&B, Daemon was.
I would say no, she's never acted like she wanted them to die. People think she showed that she would because she said aemond should be sharply questioned, I felt like rhaenyra said that because she knew he heard that from Alicent. As far as alicent goes I get why she thought so due to her dad but she also spent 10 years away from her father so that's not even an excuse. Idk if aegon would be a threat if he accepted his sister as queen because most of westeros sided with rhaenyra in dance of dragons. But you're right other people and their interest would always try to use that. Otto is the one who put his daughter in that situation.
If Rhaenyra thought her children were in danger, yes, I think she would. Begrudgingly, but she would do it.
Even as a tentative green supporter no I don’t think she would, although it’s understandable and even reasonable given the medieval period the setting is in that even if she wouldn’t just order them beheaded when she became queen, she could instead find some excuse down the line that could point toward potential treason and execute them for that, such a thing did happen in real world medieval times after all
I don’t know if she’d outright kill them but I could definitely see Rhaenyra sending Alicent and Otto away back to old town or something. Then she would keep one or two of alicent’s children as her (cough hostages cough) I mean wards/cup bearers. Maybe have fan boy aemond serve as daemon’s squire just to keep an eye on him.
That's the thing, if she didn't kill all of them, she would have constantly had to have been watching her back. Who would even want to rule under those circumstances? The people already whispered that her son's were bastard's, and that wasn't going to suddenly go away. They would all know that her taking power went against everything the patriarchy stood for in Westeros.
it will go down to blood either way someone will die, aegon and his siblings just have that good of a claim to incite rebellion. even if they don't want it personally. which aegon doesn't.
@@mesa577 I'm believe he changed his mind during his coronation.
By the time of the Dance Aemond was 19, he was too old and too skilled to be a squire
@@mike.n.n.7723Tell that to the OG character that is now portraying the twin lannisters sir Hugh. He was middle aged man before being knighted due to his part in Jon Arryn’s death. Aemond is without doubt better skilled then 95% of characters but age doesn’t matter.
There's many examples in history (well, chinese history) of a brother or uncle usurping power but not killing the deposed killing. They keep him caged and let him die of old age, so they don't get the kinslayer moniker. So killing is not the only solution.
how is that any better than death, being a prisoner for life living in mockery.
@@mesa577 It's better for the usurper. He or she is labelled as "magnanimous" and "merciful". The usurpee lives a good life in a large castle which they can never leave . Win-win ^_^
Even if she didn't, we gotta remember that her first three sons are illegitimate. Who's to say that jace's kids or grandchildren wouldn't kill off the true bloodline to keep the throne. That's goes for aegon and his children, brothers, any kids that they would have. And the bloodline by her 2 younger sons as well.
The true bloodline no the half breed blood line and them basterds of nrya there kids would have been pure cuz of Bela and rheana pure blood then Jaces and Luke's half blood mix with it
What do you mean by bloodline? Everyone was half blood at that point aside from Rhaenyra, Daemon, and his two sons with her.
Jaehaerys Jaehaera Maelor and uncle Daeron rise up against the usurpers
@@Jacaerys1 They mean non bastards
@@Daniel-ug4pu Rhaenyra wasn't pure blood either. Her mother was Aemma Arryn not Aemma Targaryen. Aegon the conquerer had a partly Velaryon mother whose last name was Velaryon. No one of the Targaryens we see is pureblodded. Literally no one. Not Daemon, not Viserys not ecen Aegon the bloddy conquerer himself.
So what exactly is your argument here?
Jace can't inherit, because he is illegitimate, meaning Rhaenyra wasn't married to Harwin Strong. If he gets legitimized his name will be Jaecerys Strong and he will have a claim to Harrenhal, not the iron throne. And that is a problem.
This reminds me of the "Mary, Queen of Scots vs Elizabeth I" dilemma.
Show Rhaenerya was either a part of or complacent in the plot to end a servant so they could use his body to fake Laenor’s demise. So show Rhaenerya either would’ve done that to her brothers or let it happen without consequences to the person/people who did it.
You could also argue that this applies to Rhaenyra's own children as well. Given that Jace, Luke & Joffrey are all illegitimate, and that most people at the very least suspect it, her children with Daemon could inadvertently be at risk thanks to their mother's decision on who to have kids with.
If Rhaenyra had ascended uncontested, at the very best Aemond, Aegon, Daeron, Jaehaerys and Maelor would be sent to the wall. Likely the eldest would be put to death and the younger kept as hostages. Then some tragedy would befall Jace Luke and Joff, because do you really think Daemon is going to let bastards inherit over his trueborn sons? Hell nah.
Very interesting take I do agree with your take. I like the fact you point out what Tywin did at the end of the war. Yet we all don’t agree but in order for peace to the realm things like that have to be done. Could say that about the North in the show once Robb died Roose want to finish and kill the Stark boys for sure because he knew his hold on the north would never be secure . As for both book and show I do think Rhaenyra would of stop Daemon but as for her camp and some other people around her can’t be to sure about that. But a perfect example of challenge to the throne is the whole blackfyre rebellion a simple action by giving away the king sword and rumor his true born son wasn’t legit rallied people to Daemon Blackfyre side..
It's baffling to me that people say that "she would have to because it's a medieval setting". The reason this happened in the real world even when claimants didn't want the throne is because the lords had armies and could force the issue. The Targaryens have fucking dragons.
Unless another dragon-riding claimant wanted the throne there was nothing the lords could have done. Aegon doesn't even want the throne until he is forced onto it by his mother and even with how much Aemond wanted to be king he wouldn't kill Aegon to get it.
Issue is:
1) Rhaenyra has proven herself to not be a nice person, having mocked and allowed a suitor to get into a duel with someone else and end with a bracken dying, asking for her brother who just lost a eye to be tortured, and many times showing zero regard for others.
2)she goes against the very thing that got her father made king, and tradition as a whole, since the rule is a son before sister, and if she is made queen, then there is huge crisis as how many women could attempt to usurp their brother, nephew, etc all of a sudden.
3) Alicent has ruled as queen for a long time, has done duty, been a exemplary queen, is well liked by her people and has stepped in and managed things plus attended small councils while Rhaenyra fucked off and did nothing to help manage the realm or make alliances or allies with lords.
4) Her kids are bastards, and every one can tell, no one will like the idea of a bastard as the next king.
5) She literally got married very soon after her husband died, and most believe she did order his death, to her uncle of all people who everyone dislikes and is all but certain killed his first wife, murdered Vaemond without even permission in the throne room, was exiled at least twice, attempted to steal a dragon egg and marry another woman while married.Who will also be king consort, a big unpopular move.
6) She doesn’t support women ruling, she is a one for me none for the rest person, so even her cousin Aunt Arryn isn’t too pleased with her.
7) Alicent has four true children, none bastards not even the blacks can say so, three sons of Viserys and who have dragons of their own.
8) Daemon is incredibly dismissive of the greens, and hates Otto with a passion, he would want them dead.
9) If Rhaenyra is crowned, her siblings will have support, and if she’s unpopular they’ll rally around them to replace her, also they’ll have far more children soon, with Heleana having three already, who would have claim as they are the grandchildren of Viserys, two of which are male, the son of Aegon the first son of Viserys, and all true born.
10) If there is a great council needed as some die by chance, like if Rhaenyra herself dies, suddenly the greens will be chosen as without Rhaenyra all the bastard children of hers have will be what allies they already had, against true born older, more capable Targaryens.
You forget she has a true born son with daemon
What made Viserys a king, was that previous king, Jaehaerys I, *chose* and appointed Viserys as his heir. Just like Viserys then appointed and *chose* Rhaenyra as his heir.
By blood, Rhenys would've been the ruler. But she wasn't, not because she was a woman, but because Jaehaerys *chose* Viserys.
In Westros you choose your own heir. Often it's the oldest child, but if the son is not suitable, a lord can name his youngest daughter over his older sons, and that would've been it. That is the Westrosi law.
@Sienisota The previous king did not choose him. He called a coucil and they decided. Do you not pay attention? I bet you're a filthy black.
@@Sienisotayes but jaehaerys also showed sexism towards his own children thinking it would last by constantly keeping the marriages in the family and the crown and since visery’s was married to ammena at the time and she was pregnant it never considered that perhaps she would die not giving birth to a male heir so visery’s would have to marry outside of the family again bringing in outsider blood. The moment jaeharys called for council is the moment every Targaryen woman became a breeder and lost the power that visenya and rhaeyns had as aegon the conqueror wife’s they had more power as queens then any other ruler they were more then just wives they were fighter’s great ones to both were dragon riders and visenya created the kings guard. Over time all the Targaryen women became weak didn’t know how to lift a sword yeah they were dragon riders but that was it visenya would’ve been pissed at how the legacy of women in her house became.
@@SienisotaJaehaerys didn't choose Viserys, the Great Council did.
Add to it, Aemond and Daeron would marry non-Targaryan houses, and it just increases the threat that the lords would rally against Rhaenyra, or rather, her bastard done.
Any chance you might be up for doing what if videos?
No. Rhaenyra actually took a while to want her siblings dead. Even when she took Kingslanding she never put Alicent or Helaena to the sword unlike Otto. She wasn’t nice to her step mother by any means but she didn’t kill her which speak volumes. At first she was willing to forgive Aegon and send him to the wall. But then she kept losing family members and dragons to the greens.
After the death of Luke, Arrax, Rhaenys, Meleys, Jace, Vermax and Stormcloud only then did she want Aegon and Aemonds heads. The greens were much more blood thirsty than Rhaenyra but Rhaenyra also had Daemon. Daemon is another story, he would most likely want all the greens dead… even the children.
did you watch the vid ?, also what makes you think daemon would ever let someone ve king other than his sons. the green were only defending themselves because of the situation at hand that viserys made, and the threat daemon and his ambitions make the deaths of rhaenerys kids were going to happen regardless because of viserys refusal to make aegon heir.
@@mesa577Daemon wasn’t an outright Kinslayer for no reason. He simply repaid blood with blood.
@@Jacaerys1 Not really. Bastard blood shed at war isn't a big deal.
In the books, Alicent herself states that Rhaenyra would kill Alicent's children.
I'll always point out that if we believe Daemon was 'Prince of the City' and 'Lord Flea Bottom' and as some think he had people assassinate Rhea Royce and make it look like an accident even to her. However he only had Blood and Cheese target the sons as opposed to going after Aegon, Daeron or Aemond, I highly doubt he was going to disobey Rhaenyra to kill her siblings.
The show funny enough goes even further to show this. Daemon hates no one on Planetos more than Otto Hightower, if Daemon were made hand you and I both know he'd jump out of the nearest window to an already waiting Caraxes to B-line it to Oldtown and kill Otto. But in the show, he relents and doesn't immediately disobey Rhaenyra to kill Otto, summoning Caraxes if he needed. So while yes, the issue of people supporting Aegon II would exist, I don't think it exists from Daemon, given that show Daemon who in my opinion is a very unflattering portrayal of the bad/potential bad things the character did, is still shown to be obedient to Rhaenyra.
TV series Rhaenyra? Maybe just her half brothers; she really disregarded Helaena. Book Rhaenyra? YES. ESPECIALLY her half brothers. In F & B, she never refers to Alicent's sons as her brothers, only as her half brothers, but considers Helaena her dear sister. Of course, to off her half brothers, she'd have to do the same for Aegon's children with Helaena, well, the ones remaining after Blood and Cheese do their job.
I think Otto didnt even need to kill Rhaenyra or her childeren. The fact that those childeren are bastard and that Rhaenyra is viewed as a whore would be enough to disqualify her.
Yep.Fact is I don’t think ant of the lords would have accepted her as queen, she married her uncle who they all hate and have now given the very thing they didn’t want to him, being king, she hasn’t bothered to make any friends or allies besides the Velaryons, the Starks for example only do so out of oaths but don’t seem particularly enthusiastic to support her and only did with the marriage promise, and she has 3 bastard children.No one wants a bastard as king.If not in her reign, when her son becomes king he would be overthrown or mysteriously killed.
@@hubertdenise3100 That is rheanyra's talent making friends into enemies.
You know who definitely would kill kids Bloodraven.
Daemon?
Also I can see that you are not so quick to dismiss Young Griff as Rhaegar's son. I found a video of GRRM being interviewed about the name his fans have come up for Young Griff & GRRM himself said he wouldn't be too sure about that nickname fitting him. Thanks for all the great videos
Rhaenyra wouldn't do that? Do you remember her calling for Aemond to be tortured after her son carved his eye out of his head? Did you forget what she did to Maelor? He was a toddler! We see exactly what kind of person she is. She went into a "black fury" that caused her to lose her daughter when she found out Aegon took the throne. She couldn't even keep a level head long enough to keep her unborn child safe. Yes, she would 100% have them put to the sword.
Pre-Dance of Dragons, no she wouldn't have. After Lucaerys was slain by Aemond, she definitely would've. She was broken and mad after that point. In the beginning, Otto was heavily projecting his "fears" onto Alicent to gaslight her and her kids. In reality *he* had no issue slaying Rhaenyra and her children. "Be quick, and be clean." - Otto High Tower
I don’t think Rhay let Alicent live because, “my father once loved you”. I think she let her live so that she could watch all of her sons die and be forced to watch as Rhay gets crowned as Queen. I don’t think keeping Alicent captive was a mercy, it was torture
Yes, she would. Even if she were reluctant, in the end she would kill them. She was not a kind-hearted person. And she was under Daemon's influence as well. If Rhaenyra got the crown, it would be Daemon - the real power behind her. Otto was right about it.
For myself personally i do not think Rhaenyra, at least at the beginning. The biggest tradgy is the fact that Otto fed into Alicents fears, both of their constant telling Aegon he should be king. So they made it a self fulfilling prophacy. I do think though that if Rheanyra became queen (no usurption) Deamon would have talked to her about possibly executing Aegon, Aemond, Haelana her children and Dearon. But i do think in this scenario she would still try to find a way to get rid of their threat without killing them. The soultion being: make Aegon and Aemond to join the Nightswatch without their dragons of course, have Dearon join the citadle or the faith the same with Haelana and her children.
rhaenyra did not give infanticide vibes but it’s possibly most likely that the people in her council would’ve likely had her do some type of action against them to secure her station; harm is highly likely but perpetrator not as clear IMO
If Otto didn't want conflict he should have never pushed Alicent to marry Viserys in the first place. He put in his daughter in that position because of his personal ambition. 85 percent of this happening is Otto Hightower's fault.
I totally agree!!
If it wasnt Otto it would be someone else and what if Rhaenyra died beflre she had kids 🤷 the king needs heirs so the succession happens
Why did Viserys choose to marry a teenage girl and have 3 trueborn sons? Ithat would surely result in a civil war. isn't he the real culprit?
In the show Rhaenyra wanted to join her children to Alicents. It could've work.
Wise and kind as always my King
My memory might be wrong but I'm sure in the books it was alicent that offered to marry the kids and rhaenyra said no.
@@jakarhess7129 It was Rhaenyra who offered, and Alicent said no. Ultimately, Alicent rejects the idea of marrying her daughter to what she calls, one of Rhaenyra's "plain featured" sons. She resents the fact that Rhaenyra not only has given birth to three bastard children, but seemingly is unashamed of this fact.
@@jakarhess7129no in the books it was Alicen that said no.
that doesn't stop aegon from having a claim and being a threat it only makes helena a hostage that they can use for leverage.
Otto might be right about one thing - the safety of Alicent’s children, especially her three sons, is a concern. This puts Rhaenyra’s claim in jeopardy, as someone might try to challenge it. However, casting Rhaenyra’s character onto Alicent is unfair, especially when he doesn't know her well enough as he knows Daemon. He claims that Rhaenyra will kill Alicent's children, but it's more likely that someone from Team Black or Daemon might do it in her name.
Now, it is true that as long as Aegon and his brothers are alive, they will always threaten Rhaenyra claim and her children. However, she doesn't have to kill her brothers. To secure it, she can offer peaceful terms to her brothers and Alicent in exchange for allowing her to ascend the throne. Aegon kin get on a ship and go to Essos and form a new Targaryen family and a Targaryen bloodline in Essos. Aemond can join the Kingsguard, or he can join the Night’s Watch, therefore giving up his claim to the throne. Daeron can go to Oldtown and be a Maester, or he can go to Essos so there are peaceful opportunities to prevent a bloody war.
But know Otto and Daemon they will rather die than bend the knee or give up their freedom.
making a second targeryan house with dragons is a death wish that would be even bloodier than the dance, and why would aemond want to abandon his ambitions and personal vendettas it just wont work out war will happen.
@@mesa577
The Targaryen‘s problem was they kept killing each other over and over again, and their entire family was being wiped out with and without dragons and they never expanded their entire family as well. They should’ve because in the present time there is only like a few Targaryen’s left ( Aemon, Bryden Rivers, Viserys , Daenerys , & Jon ). Aemond’s ambitions, and his personal vendetta is it depends if he loves his family or if he wants the throne because I believe that is the internal conflict within himself because we get to see him and Damon have the same conflict with each other. Damon chooses his family over his ambitions so the question is, would a man choose his family over his ambitions or will he do the opposite of what Damon does and that’s choose ambition over family. Besides, Alicent’s children are not the purest Targaryen’s because their blood would be diluting the Targaryen’s powers in their bond to dragons
We should also consider how it was Otto who in actually urged the small council to kill Rhaenyra and her children to avoid her supporters from raising her banner. Besides Rhaenyra even left Kingslanding to go to dragonstone even though it meant the greens would lot against her but she had very little reason to believe they would actually usurp the throne so l would say her trying to kill off Aegon children would not have been a possibility plus only the Hightowers and lannister openly oppposed her so if they urged Aegon to oppose his sister naturally she would have to cut him down
I have no doubt Rhaenyra will seek violent vengeance upon Aemeond for Lucerys' death.
i never noticed you uploaded so frequently, how long does your video making process usually take you?
It depends on the video. The Targaryen Lore videos don't take too long, 3 or 4 hours as i have most of the stuff like pictures ready to go. The Regional history videos take a longer as i have to spend a lot more time on the research and getting pictures. The Thursday videos are on par with the regional ones. These Sunday/Monday ones depending on timezone by far take the longest as it's much more about developing new ideas and concepts rather than straight up lore. for example this script took maybe 2 days with another for research. I'd been thinking about this idea in my head for a couple of weeks now. The actual video editing is the fastest part of making the actual video with the audio editing really taking ages. It used to take me a week to make one video but once you have a workflow in place it really does speed up. Having worked in video production for 10 years before doing youtube full time really helped as i came into it with many of the skills it takes a while to pick up.
It was happened in real history. Chengis Khan created a big empire. His nominal successor was his first son Juchi Khan. But Juchi was not his son. It was a rumour and some what right. But he considered Juchi as his son and heir. When his second son Chagatai khan and many court members opposed against Juchi. Chengiz Khan selected his third son Ogedei Khan as the next great Khan.
The real question, should have been would Daemon have let Alice's children live. Rhaenyra and the white worm literally had Alice and her daughter sent to a whore house. So she is not above killing them.
That's according to mushroom whom is known for highly exaggerated sex stories. Even septon eustace, a green supporter, does not support that claim by mushroom.
A hard yes on this. She might not have wanted to, but there would have been no other way of securing her children's "birthrights" and there is no other way around it. Unfortunately, Otto was right, It is a game of thrones after all. It's more nuanced if we're talking about the show, but book Rhaenyra would have had no choice whatsoever.
You crazy and a team green ik for sure
@@samanthasosa1898”prince Aemond must be sharply questioned “ she was ready to Torture her brother
@@Daniel-ug4puwe’re just using logic , let me explain- rhaenyra has 3 bastards that all lack Targaryen features meaning odds are those boys are gonna pass those ( not Targaryen ) features to their sons, MEANING THE PREVIOUS KINGS TRUE BORN SONS (that look like Targaryens) will be sought after to be king over the princesses “plain featured sons” war was inevitable when rhaenyra decided to keep having bastards and if those bastards were to ascend the throne without turmoil the previous kings true born sons and grandsons on his sons side WILL HAVE TO DIE. This isn’t a TB/TG issue we just understand the laws in the world which the story is taking place. Something the average show watchers can’t/won’t even begin to comprehend, average show watchers keep bringing modern day morals and ethics into a medieval society then act confused when people have a different perspective on situations we in modern times would be like “there’s an easy fix, just do this” that’s not how this world works THERE ARE RULES.
I will say no because Daemon will do it for her..
Clear understanding of text l would say but the same could be said for Rhaenyra should she have bent the knee considering how she was after all the first claimant to the throne and her children still possed a threat. After all it was Otto made a point to kill Rhaenyra and her children after they crowned aegon coz they knew she was the rightful queen
If Rhaenyra was smart, she would have formed a bond with her brothers when they were young. Aemond would have been especially loyal to her if she had helped him when he was dragonless.
I think in the show it makes more sense given how the ages are changes and the context of Rhaenyra and Alicents relationship is very different. Thus why she would have this detachment from Aegon. But i would have loved to a scene some king of sibling relationship between them when really they are just strangers. i can se a world where if things had played out differently someone like Daemon could have been a mentor figure to Aemond.
Idk if Rhaenyra would but Daemon definitely would. Even if it meant pissing off Rhaenyra. He'd be like "she jus gon have to get over it" lmao
Debends on the version in my opinion. Fire and Blood Rhaenyra would have probably killed them, but the show version probably Wouldn't
I think daemon would kill alicent's kids and even the strong bastards so his sons can be the ones to become king
Even Fire and Blood itself provides a counter-example to this so evident "inevitability". The Blackfyres. Sure we are told the legitimacy rumour is false, but that couldn't be known, so for people it was a 50/50 Daeron was an unlegitimized bastard and bastard < legitimized bastard. Even with the rumour floating around, Daeron gives lands, honours and a marriage to Daemon (which is really dangerous) but never tries (neither him nor any more hawkish advisors) to kill him. It's the Blackfyre that betrays his brother, like the Greens do. Still, the line is left to their own devices and it's always them that return to annoy the Iron Throne.
Even if you go to real life for every prince in the tower there's a Pragmatic Sanction where contravening traditional law a woman was to inherit the austrian lands. Some raised a stint, fought, they ended in a compromise and although Maria Theresa never got to govern the Holy Roman Empire, the actual lands were inherited through her. The alternatives line was not murdered, nothing happened.
More similar, daughter inherited over brother (contravening traditional law) in Spain leading to war (Carlist war). Dude got beaten and created an alternative line (still existing, funnily enough) that caused two more wars. Yet never (before or after the rebellion) a move to murder the alternative "more legitimate claim" was made.
These are from the top of my head.
In my opinion I can see that happening
Probably, under the advise of Daemon. She's not a saint, pretty much nobody (with a massive exception being King Viserys) is a good person on both sides.
bro the guy was a terrible father and was a "im above the rules" guy
@@mesa577 dude wtf? he clearly was never "I'm above the rules" guy. the dude was easily a great father - his sons are just pieces of shit.
No, but I can totally see Daemon being capable of that and doing it without her approval.
I think she would have ordered the murder of Alicents children in a rage over losing her son is one thing, but if there wasn’t that installment of fear into Alicent by Otto of losing her children when Rhaeynera i honestly believe that someone would have be able to influence her into putting one of the children to the sword to secure her claim..
This is asking would she kill them if she ascended the throne without issue.
the map at the beginning of the vid does anyone know where to find it?
Y’all there is no way the greens would survive if rhaenyra became Queen. Even if Daemon spared them, some greens around aegon could still challenge blacks rule. Probably aemond. Or the common folk could just choose daeron the good. Only one of the parties could survive. And yet strangely enough, if alicent’s methods had succeeded and rhaenyra had accepted aegon’s rule, a war might have been avoided
Avoided in the sense that her descendants would be less likely to have the support because of descent from a female
Is no one wondering if Deamon would ever let Jace take the throne? The man is obsessed whit Valarian supremacy and blood. And the only ones more pure than his sons is him and Viserys.
First to take the Black 🖤
Let's say Rhaenyra becomes queen under the very best circumstances. If something were to happen to her, I wonder, would Daemon attempt to take the throne? All he would have to do is agree that the Strong boys are bastards, which can't be denied. Without them, he has a better claim than anyone else.
No his sons with Rhaenyra do
@@kiyoshi6739 His son's would definitely become his heirs, but he's both king's younger brother and the king consort. If not, he'd be the king regent to his sons.
And Jace could never sit the throne as long as Aemond and Ageon lived and had trueborn sons every child whit the Targaryen look would pour more and more doubt on Jace and his birth hel even him and Beala having children would pour more doubt if that child turned out to be Velaryon or Targaryen looking
No. I mean this idea makes even less sense in the show than it does the book. This idea is introduced what episode…4 or 5 right? But we get a massive time jump come episode 6. Rhaenyra waiting so long to harm the kids doesn’t make any real sense in the slightest especially because the show keeps on time jumps and shows Rhaenyra to be in the more passive position.
While Viserys was still alive? He let's her get away with A LOT of stuff, but I don't think even she can get away with that.
@KaiHung-wv3ul or maybe kin slaying is taboo as all heck? Alicent is the one who raised her kids to be okay with it ( excluding Helena). Alicent is delusional and she is just using it to gaslight her kids. Why would she keep antagonizing Rhaenyra ( especially since Rhaenyra doesn't fight back) for years and years and years? And spend her time just being petty instead of actually trying to get allies for herself and her kids?
Lying to cover your creeping as a teenager is a far cry from murdering your siblings!
Otto was absolutely saying RHAENYRA would have them killed. He said ‘prepare Aegon to rule or Cleve to Rhaenyra and pray for HER mercy.”
Rhaenyra was no
Tywin Lannister!
Robert wanted to kill Dany for revenge on all Targaryens, not really politics
Rhae would never kill those kids
I do think daemon would've killed alicents children.
of course. She is a monster
She wasn’t a monster. She was reactive if anything. The Greens killed all her children, husband, close relatives, and possibly her father to steal her throne.
Aegon is a disgrace, but Aemond is too dangerous, especially with their father dying
Aegon fought 3 Dragon Battles. Each one could've been his last. Hardly a disgrace.
I don't think so she try to marry them with eachother but the greens where stupid asf and thus they all died 😅
No she wouldn't if she had a smooth transition
There would not be a smooth transition with her half brothers still alive, that's the point.
In fire and blood whenvthe war starts she offers to let them live if they bend the knee. Also when corlys says to let them take the black, she says she wants aegon and aemonds heads since theyre responsible for the deaths of jace and luke, but doesn't mention daeron (who was just fucking around in the reach). She also does not execute allicent or helaena. Suffice it to say, i don't think she'd have killed her half siblings unprovoked.
And no she wouldn't do that lock them up yes lol
NO. Otto told Alicent that to scare her into going along with his plan to turn her children against Rhaenyra and her children. Otto was a freakin' snake.
Otto not trying to scare her he telling her the truth do a little research on monarchies relatives die after they take the throne you mad at Otto because he sees the world he lives in?? look at daemon he murder his wife and his nephews in the books you think he wouldn’t do it to secure the throne everybody knows their bastards viserys sons and his sons will always be under threat people would always see them as the rightful kings it’s just facts rhaenyra wanted her brother tortured over a insult which was true but kinslaying beneath her??
And why wouldn’t she support her?? Why would she support her bastards who could have them killed if they become killed their bastards joffery did it to Secure the throne you mad because they chose their family over a liar who breaks thousands of years of laws and traditions and murder those who speak the truth??
The greens would have to live in their knees praying her or daemon or after her the strongboys won’t kill them s
Rhaenyra stans denying that they would always be under threat is pathetic all you have to do is add up the thousands of years of laws and traditions being broken her bastards daemon and read a little bit of history add all that up and you see she/daemon/strongboys would have no other choice this video even points out what happened to rhaegar kids and the mad king kids
You're example of it happening in the main books has a major difference. Lions killed Dragons at the end of Roberts Rebellion. In the case of Rhaenyra, it would be Dragons killing Dragons. Otto was hella greedy and played his on daughter to get what he wanted. She might as well of been pinokio.
that's not the example he made though, he compared robert and deanrys/viserys to rheanyra and aegon/others.
and the idea is that as long as a rival is alive the throne is not secure and rebellion is at risk as well as your family's lives.
Probably says more about Alice t than it does about rhanyra 😊daemon loves his murders though.😮
I believe she would have killed them all for Lucerys':death, which she surely blamed them all for. Team black!!!
Probably not. But Daemon definitely would've.