The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages and Seasons' dungeon design | Boss Keys
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2024
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Boss Keys is an on-going research project to analyse the level design of the dungeons in The Legend of Zelda. This time, it's the turn of Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons.
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BFU/ - เกม
I also found it interesting how Link's Awakening relies on the fact that every dungeon room and every area in the game is the same size as the Game Boy's screen, meaning you're always aware of everything that's going on in a certain room/area, much like the first Zelda game. The Oracle games return to what A Link to the Past did, which is that areas and dungeon rooms are much bigger than the system's screen, which means you have to explore to get a full grasp of your surroundings. I like both systems, as they encourage the player's thinking in different ways.
I never really thought about that before. Cool observation!
Man, OOS's themes are so cool. For some reason this idea of seeing the same land in different seasons is so charming and enjoyable. It's like one big celebration of the natural world.
Good lord, Jabu Jabu's belly is probably the hardest dungeon in the entire series. It's just an absolute nightmare where any wrong step can require 20 minutes of backtracking to get to where you were, and you can wander in circles for an hour without making any progress.
"Jumped off that platform instead of using the Switch Hook? Guess you're going back through a dozen rooms again."
I've discovered that it's even possible to softlock yourself. There's a way to raise the water level before you have enough keys to enter the area where it can be lowered again, and it's an easy mistake to make on a first playthrough.
@@benregnier9566 that's insane if it's true, do you have more details on it? That sounds like game design flaw
@@Zelascelar I wish I did, it's been years and It was my siblings file, but we couldn't figure out any way to get deeper at all. All I really remember is that it was one of the first few doors
@@Zelascelar I remember I softlocked it by raising the water to its max level too early. Couldn't reduce it, since you can't pull the required switch while swimming. Was short a key, had to reset the game.
Hey all - thanks for the comments. Appreciate the feedback that i didn't really talk about the Oracle games in as much depth as other games. That's fair - i apologise and will make sure future episodes are more squarely focused on the specific games in the title.
just to explain where i'm coming from - this is literally a documentation of my ongoing understanding of how nintendo makes dungeons. so while it might seem like a review or a retrospective on the games (and i can only blame myself for setting it up like that), it's really about my research.
but hey - no reason it can't be both. so next episode you can be sure i'll go into a lot of depth on wind waker's dungeons. if i mention the shadow temple in that episode you can shoot me.
Can't you redo the episode to talk just a little more about the games at least? I feel like the dungeons deserve just a little more focus.
Like talking about the differences between how dungeons are structured in comparison to each game.
You're PURE quality in all your videos. This was no exception. Thanks for all the work you've been doing. I also love how you draw the dungeon layouts to explain the design flawlessly. You draw them yourself?
i did, yeah. cheers!
I really like your Graph. What software are you using?
photoshop
I think it's also worth noting the "textures" of the oracle game's dungeons. Prior to the jump to 3D, most dungeons in 2D zelda games were borderline identical (some were unique like Thief's Hideout or Eagle's Tower, but that was pretty rare.) Every dungeon in the oracle games had an interesting feel to them & dungeon gimmick, which was probably influenced by OoT & MM.
Oracle of Ages/Seasons were FANTASTIC games and were packed with so much amazing content. The sheer number of rings that did useful or fun stuff made the game that much more exciting.
True for me too! Those were the only games in the series I played and they were AMAZING!
Despite it's great build-up to the end, the linked game ending was a let-down. You face a mindless Ganon instead of your true archnemesis. :(
I would honestly say that Ages is one of my favorite Zelda games of all time. The puzzle solving was great and there was just a surprising amount of content in such a handheld game.
Currently playing Ages for the first time (having only played LADX and ALTTP before among the 2D games), and the puzzles feel simultaneously more approachable and more challenging/rewarding for some reason.
Are some handheld games more of a handheld game than others?
Still waiting for that CD-i episode.
no no no, not in my house
sorry link
that'd be great for april 1st
Yeah
Yes, yes, let's force Mark to play these!
Those diagrams are awesome dude! Really opened up my mind!
Jragon // Learn How To Make Minecraft Commands you should get that checked out
You can't make a command without modding. Or being a dev, which you are not.
Me too I have learned so much from these videos. I geuinly look forward to game makers toolkit content.
The Gameboy Zelda theme hits me hard in the nostalgia.
I can't wait for Minish Cap. It's my favorite one. Great show btw. Those dungeon diagrams must have been tough to figure out and draw.
They're on the screen for a few seconds, but making those must have been hell! Such is life.
The Ages/Seasons games rarely top people's favorite Zelda games lists, but they'll always be my favorites. The overworld also changes depending on which animal you choose, adding even more variety to the game each time you play.
Quite an intresting story behind the Oracle of... series, It was supposed to be three games and based on the three triforce pieces, Seasons was Power, Ages was Wisdom and the cancelled third game was Courage.
Larry Bundy Jr So that’s why Dinraal was in oracle of seasons and why it focuses on fighting and why oracle of ages focuses on puzzles.
Larry Bundy Jr I bet you tell people that water wets.
unfortunately the third game was canned. it was originally going to feature farore and its theorized the unique item was likely a paintbrush with its theme to be colors or art styles. however due to its already complicated password system adding a third game on top of it made it far too complicated and so farore was demoted to just being a character to transfer secrets between games, fun fact farores cancelled game was even referenced in minish cap where you can find all three characters looking for a house, but theres only 2 avalible or in other words 3 characters but 2 games
@Brandon: You are half right here. The third game (based on Courage) was not the one that was supposed to be color-themed - instead the second game (based on Wisdom, now called Oracle of Ages) was. That's why the final game has many color-themed puzzles in it.
However, the third game was supposed to be time-themed. It was not before the third game was canceled, that the second game absorbed the time-themed elements of the third one - thus also gaining the title Oracle of AGES, which it didn't have before.
I feel like you didn't talk that much about the Oracle dungeons at all. For the most part, this video was you being excited about the graph. Which is fine, but I feel like that could have been a separate video.
It seems like you only spent maybe three of these ten minutes talking about the Oracle games.
Yeah exactly. This doesn't seem like an Oracle video at all.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
That aside though, the graphs are beautiful, useful, and awesome, so I can tell why he was so excited to talk about them!
Fuck the graphs, they arent the point, the point was to talk about the dungeons, and he hardly spoke about them at all.
Well he summarized all the dungeons by saying they follow the patterns in his graphs, and then he pointed out the various "unique keys" and puzzles that can be found as well in those dungeons. So, I guess that was all there really was to say about them here.
Unless there's something else specifically you think he should've talked about.
Clayton Grange I feel like going into more of the intricacies of the dungeon style between the two games would be interesting. He only briefly touched on this before.
A little more elaboration would be nice.
There's so much work behind these videos, great job!
Great video. The Oracle games are probably my favorite Zeldas of all time. Looking forward to another video where you examine their puzzles.
I'd like to see a website with those charts for every Zelda dungeon.
I forgot how good the music was in the oracle games. Magnificent choice with the Tarm Ruins/Lost Woods theme at the beginning.
goddamn, I haven't thought about the Oracle games in forever. I really missed this games aesthetic. I loved it's strong use of complimenting colors
Oracle of Seasons is my favourite, I feel like this video and the diagrams explain how Zelda dungeons work really well. Subbed, I'm looking forward to more videos ^^
Interesting! Those are the only two Zelda games I've not played, and the dungeon gimmicks and items seem really unique and cool. I like it when a series tries something new, even if it doesn't work.
I really enjoyed the light and dark weapons in Metroid Prime 2, but wasn't a fan of the ammo idea.
Maybe (hopefully) future Zelda games could switch up traditional items.
The Ammo is actually super easy to never worry about, things destroyed or killed with the Dark Beam drop Light Ammo often, and vice versa with Light Beam and Dark Ammo, combine this with the fact that you always have Light and Dark Beam open for puzzles and I think its pretty cool
Cloudmonkey Oh yeah, it's definitely cool and I liked that they tried something different, but like you said, the ammo thing never seemed to be an issue which is why it was a little odd.
Dan Root I think it made you think about how you used the Beams in combat, rather then just rushing everything with the Light Beam, you had to think about how you finished fights "Do I finish with Light Beam, or take some weak Dark Shots to try and replenish?" As well as made the Power Beam more useful, since it had no limitation, honestly where you'll run out of Ammo is the Annihilator Beam
Cloudmonkey Yeah that's true. God MP2 was a decent game. I really liked that they took it in a different direction, didn't have any of the standard Metroid staples, and it was the better for it, I think.
Dan Root they're the best Zelda games, or right below A Link to the Past. A big miss there
Love those diagrams! Great idea to compare dungeons across games. If there are ways to further represent difficulty and so on that would be nice too, but even just what you've made here I'd be happy to have access to in like a wiki or some comparative page.
Btw the oracles are my favorites in the series. I hope you'll talk more at length about them..?
Anyway, thanks for the excellent work. Big fan
I love how system limitations led to game play innovations "back in the day". I fear that in the new age of high power graphics and memory capabilities such innovation may not exist anymore... I hope I am wrong. Please prove me wrong. Awesome channel. Thx Mark!
Just want it to remind you that, thank god, you were wrong. TOTK is very innovative
I absolutely love the way you broke down the dungeons in this video. Great job.
Loved the map visualization. Great idea
Oh god I forgot about the seeds. How nostalgic. These were my favorite gameboy games. I thought the interlocking nature of the games was mind blowing, Thanks for making this, even if I don't necessarily agree with you about what dungeons are easier than others.
2D Zeldas are my favourite games if the series.
I love Link's Awakening and the Oracle games so much, their items, their dungeons, their bosses, the endings (the *best dream* and the first kiss Link has ever gotten from Zelda)...
They were on handhelds, too, so I could play whenever I could. If I heard a friend was going to play their first Zelda game, I'd definitely tell them to play those before Ocarina or even aLttP or aLBW.
Thanks for making this series. This was the episode I wanted to watch the most when I first saw the playlist.
Each Oracle game was different, and maybe big enough for two separate videos, but I love the way this one was made. Congrats on gaining one subscriber who patiently waits for more. Keep up the good work and I hope you enjoy all your playthroughs :D
btw, of* the series
lol :^)
You sound cute. How old are you?
Stephen P This kind of questions... xD
I'm 17. I guess I'm relatively young.
Pucked Aww.. you puppy! Hey, I'm friendly and I love talking about Zelda. The 2D installments are my favorite as well. Oracle of Ages is a masterpiece, just like Link's Awakening and I think more people should find out about it. Seasons and Minish Cap were great, but don't quite get there.
Doesn't Link from Zelda II already kiss Zelda?
The amount of thought and effort that must have gone into this is astounding. You, my friend, just earned yourself a subscriber.
This is really awesome! I've never played any 2D Zelda game, apart from Link Between Worlds, and this series has really made me want to try them out. Thanks!
Do you plan to make these dungeon diagrams for more dungeons from the previous games? I'd honestly be pretty interested to see what dungeons like Woodfall Temple and Skull Woods would look like.
hopefully over time i'll have everything, yeah.
I'm curious how Snowpeak Ruins from Twilight Princess would work, as you're sent to get the boss key, but it's in the chest the 3rd time, where the first 2 times you get pretty much useless items to give to the yeti, like the pumpkin and cheese. I'm also curious about how Wind Waker's Earth Temple would be drawnin that diagram form, as you go through the dungeon with Medli, which helps you solve puzzles right from the beginning
It would be nice to have a place where we could see those graphs, because they're really well done and explain the structure well, even better than most text walkthroughs
Just want to quickly say how great of a series this is and how interesting all your thoughts and research are. This is really the kind of case study I love and you're going to extra mile both in research and production. Thank you very much for all of this. I'll be waiting patiently for each new episode.
Cool series. One thing though, adjust your playlist so that these episodes play in the correct order. Future viewers will thank you. Cheers n' kisses.
good idea, done
@@GMTK 4 years later and yes, i appreciate you putting the videos in order, thank you.
It's just a nonlinear playlist
I directly benefitted from this comment
These graphs are brilliant. What an excellent analytical tool for examining the Zelda dungeons. They work on so many conceptual levels. Well done, sir! This video is the one that is making me throw in my support in Patreon right now :)
Wow, those graphs are amazing. Really concise way to display all relevant information, genius idea Mark!
Just found your channel and I've been watching for hours now. It's nice to find another person who really appreciates the design behind games.
I'm rewatching some of your videos. I love this one mate
These videos must take so much time to make, especially to figure out those graphs. Great job, loving this series
Great job man, I came from Kotaku, but i stayed for the neat and superb way you explain about these dungeon design, I've already watched all Boss Keys and hitted Subscribe. Keep up the good work!
I can't be the only one that says Mark's "Hi" out loud every time before playing his videos
I saw a concept very similar to your graph system on a blog talking about metroidvania design. I want to say it was the blog of a former Metroid Prime level designer.
These are great! I really like your graph concept. Please keep them coming.
as a massive zelda fan, these videos really please me. I don't know how i haven't found your channel but im glad i have. Keep up the good work.
You're making me very interested in game design right now. Also, those flow charts are looking sexy as hell. The boss keys logo is genius, too! arrgh
This seems like a good time to say, with your introduction of these topographical dungeon graphs, that I really enjoy how this series is turning into not just a review series but actual research into the field of dungeon design. Everyone I see on TH-cam - GMTK included - often treat game design as if it's a known certainty, and every video is about lecturing an audience on a well-established design principle every week. But then next week it's something completely different and no depth is achieved.
But this series is genuinely about Mark getting his thoughts in order, and in that process actually discovering new ways of thinking about dungeon design through the Zelda games. I don't know whether that appeals to everybody, and certainly some in the comments seem more interested in a more traditional "review" of these two games. But for me, it's fascinating seeing your "workings out" instead of just your final answer. Keep up the good work, and, although I'm sure you'd do this anyway, keep up the dialogue in the comments and bringing that back into your videos.
Just a couple questions: when you cover Windwaker, will you be working with the HD remake at the same time? And when it comes to the graphs, could you implement a "key" (pun intended) at the side to help people who pause the video to get to grips with it?
thanks - yeah. this series is a bit weird because it's literally just me figuring shit out and bringing everyone along for the ride
for wind waker i'm going to just use the wii u version. as far as i can tell the dungeon layouts are identical
as for the key - i'll give that some thought, ta
I know you made this view years ago, but I *still* come back to it when I try to explain to someone good map design.
It has been invaluable as both a teaching tool as well as insight into what made certain games memorable.
Really big fan of this series and the rest of your games analysis. Thank you for continuing to make these!
Opening with Tarm Ruins. Off to a good start.
I actually really enjoy the Shadow Temple, it's my favorite in OoT, but I think it's because of the creepy theme mostly. Same reason why I like the Forest Temple too.
Thanks for the series, Mark! Keep up the great work!
Fantastic video again, Mark!
Can't wait to see the next vid.
Masterful work, as always, Mark. That graph of yours is inadvertently useful to chart out Tabletop RPG dungeons!!!!
Thank you so much for this serie of video, it's a real pleasure both for the mind and for the memories to watch!
Man your videos are awesome, I've been checking out your channel all day! You surely deserve more subscribers
I really like your analysis of basic dungeon paths, starting from the bottom level of 'entrance-->key item' and then how complex it gets through the use of locked doors and keys, puzzles, etc.
Do you have those graphs posted somewhere? I think they're a really useful tool for thinking about trends and progression, but to get the full benefit, I feel like I'd want to sit and look at them and compare them. When they're flashing by on a video, it's useful for a single level, but I'd like to see them in a layout that invites more detailed review. Even if you don't have a complete set, I think the community might finish it if you released a template.
Great video as always. Keep up the good work.
+Tamara Ryan Thanks - yep, I'll release them soon.
Awesome, thanks!
Awesome. I'm considering printing them out as posters and hanging them up in my room. Very nice work on the design.
I'm only three minutes in and the quality of the visuals and explanations are just absolutely fantastic.
Mark Brown liking the magnet puzzles. That checks out watching from the future.
Great video! Looking forward to the next one. I think those diagrams are very helpful to understand a dungeon's structure.
I really love the graph toolset you came up with!
Wow I've never watched a video so close to release (30 seconds) and as always a great video
Loved the graphs and great job like always!
this graph thing is monstrously clever. I love it!
It's genuinely amazing what good Zelda games Capcom were able to make. Of course, this was Capcom back when they were one of the best 3rd party developers in the world.
Loving the series, though I do wish that the videos were longer; I find your analysis very interesting, and I would love to see a full analysis of all dungeons in A Link to the Past (for example).
Really well put together! You just earned yourself a subscriber!
Thank you for uploading this after my birthday haha consider this my unofficial birthday present, I finished both games and playing the linked games(both ages and seasons) right now (:
I *love* that you used the Tarm Ruins music in this video. Instant subscription to your channel
Just want to let you know that I'm a massive fan and love your work, keep it up!
This is a great series man, hope you keep it up :) It would have been nice to see an overview of the difficulty growth with your graph system. Like a wrap up at the end comparing the dungeons according the your system. Is it more keys that make it harder? more puzzles? Stuff like that.
Wow. Really impressed with the video. You're analysis is spot on. Great work!
This is one of my favorite videos. I've watched it at least a dozen times.
This channel is amazing! I've been watching a lot of Extra Credits and love how this shines a laser onto such a specific topic. I'll be watching a bunch more of these! Also, Never a big Zelda fan but I'm gonna give them a shot now.
Keep up the great work on this series, agree that maybe too focused on the new graph system but ultimately its enjoyable to see you take on the criticism and reevaluate the way you analyse dungeons.
Great way to give yourself perspective, I look forward to the final video
I'm following your series and i LOVE such a way to describe dungeon structures :D
Your channel is really something else Mark. Thank you very, very much for this stuff.
This should be on /r/dataisbeautiful
A note for graph design: you can use a colour or shape gradient to indicate the difficult of given encounter, trials, boss fights or gauntlets.
For instance:
- Hue for time pressure. Blues and greens for little to none, reds and pinks for intense.
- Luminance for endurance. White for little persistance need, black for "buckle up".
- Shape for specificity. Circle for any general skill, Square for some specifics, Triangle for very specific
Never played any of the handheld Zelda games to completion, except Link Between Worlds, which was EXCELLENT. You've inspired me to go back and play them on my 3DS. Thanks Mark!
"Here's the Stone Tower Temple with all the mini bosses, extra items, and stray faries. But it's like, OH MY GOD" -Mark Brown 2016 (i almost died of laughter)
I would really like to see more of these. Excellent job on video quality and quantity. Do you have plans for more in this series? Or for other franchises? Either way, keep up the good work!
Your graph representation of the dungeon structure is wonderful Mark!
Me and my bro bother played through these games when they released... I think of all the 2D Zelda games, the dungeons and game-play of these Ages and Season are definitely my favourite!
Hey Mark. You should totally publish those graphs and maps of the dungeons along with the explanation on PDF or a guide e-book. All Boss Keys series is pure gold. Not to mention Toolskit's series as well.
:)
You are my favourite thing to see on notifications. Keep at it mate.
HOW DO YOU ONLY HAVE 200,000 SUBS!!!!! YOUR VIDEO'S ARE SO HIGH QUALITY. YOU DESERVE AT LESAT A MILLION!!!
I love how thought out this is.
Echoing many of the other comments, I'm a little disappointed. I was so excited to hear your thoughts on these games, and you spent the majority of the video talking about other games and how you can graph them. You gave Ocarina of Time the full ten minutes, but you split roughly three minutes between both Oracle games, when there's so much to talk about.
9:42 "I'm going to talk about individual puzzles in a future episode..."
Those graphs really give me something to think about! I GM a lot of tabletop games and being able to visualise dungeon design in that way is really helpful
this video was as usual very well done, i just think this one was extra well done. good job homes
Thank you for captioning this.
I must say, the graph system you made here is a fantastic tool for MAKING dungeons as much as analyzing them. Using this, I can start by making a graph as complex as I want, and then make the actual design around it. It's an excellent starting point for design.
Please keep doing these.. they are amazing!
Wow! You did such a great job with how things are broken down in the levels. I'd love to see how the devs came to these ideas and what techniques they used to implement them, such as "was it a map-like visual representation?", "An icon graph?". Very informative series! I'm glad you are doing these! They are sooooo helpful!! THANK YOU!!!
I'm excited for wind waker's episode!!!
Are you doing phantom hourglass/Spirit tracks too? You could do an episode on both, like this one
yeah - not sure if they'll get separate or combined eps yet
Can't find a good enough compliment to describe how much I like your videos :)
This hit me really hard. My brother had Oracle of Seasons and I had Oracle of Ages. I got stuck on the Jabu Jabu's Belly dungeon multiple times. Even with a strategy guide, at that age I just could not figure out what I was missing. I reset the entire game and got back to that point - still no luck. Eventually my brother and I swapped games. I don't believe either of us ever finished that dungeon.
These were the first two Zelda games I ever played, so not only is this video interesting, but it also has some nostalgic value for me.
rewatching Boss Keys to brush up on dungeon design before building a dnd adventure, this series remains a seminal analysis of the Legend of Zelda series and its dungeon flowcharts are an inspiration years on.
Great chart system! I'm glad you found a way to compare the different games on equal footing....I feel like the Oracles get overlooked a lot but they came off really well here.
Though this episode doesn't really focus that much on the Oracle games, the new map system is really useful and cool. Loved how it made it much easier to compare dungeons, especially between different games. Good job on the map system! This was one of the best episodes so far!
i look forward to using these graphs to help design my game. good work, these seem very useful :)
Wow, your analysis is incredible!