The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds' dungeon design | Boss Keys
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ส.ค. 2017
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Boss Keys is an on-going research project to analyse the level design of the dungeons in The Legend of Zelda. This time, we're looking at the 3DS game, A Link Between Worlds.
Miyamoto on A Link to the Past's story:
shmuplations.com/zeldalttp/
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BEv/ - เกม
A Link Between Worlds was the first Zelda game in a decade that made me feel like I had to think. This was just because of the wall merge mechanic, it so integral to the game that it can be sometimes forgotten. Often in previous Zelda games I walk into a room and in about 3 seconds I have solved the puzzle in my head before moving a single step. however, in Link Between Worlds were I was genuinely stuck until I was like "duh well of course that's the answer" and that is a wonderful feeling.
A Link Between Worlds is my favorite Legend of Zelda, when I first got it I played it 18 hours straight and didn't stop till I finished it, I couldn't put it down, because wall merging was fun, completing Dungeons in any order after the first one was amazing, it wasn't super complex but it was still extremely fun, Breath of the Wild had the same excitement when exploring but lacked a few things like Traditional Dungeons, enemy variety, the music worked great for the theme and was cool, but had very few that really stood out as something memorable, though BotW is still my 2nd favorite Zelda.
I think it's great simply because it introduced me, a new fan at the time, into the Legend of Zelda series and I'll be forever grateful for that.
i remember it took me a while to clear turtle rock. my biggest gripe with most of albw's dungeons is how small they are however their puzzles are pretty good. in twilight princess, i recall the only dungeons where i got stuck were in lakebed because of the boss room and city in the sky because of a hidden switch. tww dungeons overall were pretty simple and the fortress of winds was the only dungeon in TMC where i got lost.
What you just described is Zelda to me. I H A T E D the linear game design of games like Skyward Sword. Thinking is fun. Thinking you way through a game is peak Zelda!
That "hey listen" was super cheeky, Mark.
Hey!
Looku!
Hey!
Hey!
Watch out!
Hey!
Listen!
Hey!
Hey!
Hey!
Hey!
"Following a gps on a straight road" lmao
lmfao
While Fi pops in to tell you're on a straight road.
lock/key=courage
puzzle=wisdom
gauntlet=power
Oh my gosh that's awesome lol
@@charliesnark6535 that actually would make an interesting theme. lock and key are generally non linear with branching patches, puzzle boxes can be like the water temple and gauntlet can be more like the tower dungeons.
Thank you! I was struggling to get a grasp on the gauntlet term when he said it's basically "follow path".
nah
Water Temple is a super mix between Lock and Key lol
Also saying that Puzzle Temple are the Most annoying when you show the Ancient Cystern and the Stone Temple is not convincing
Alternate dungeon categories:
Lock & key = find the path
Puzzle = make the path
Gauntlet = follow the path
I also love how vastly different the puzzle styles are for such things. Lock and Key is an elongated puzzle where navigation itself is the challenge. Puzzle is a challenge in that you have to find a way to not just solve the path through the dungeon, but the dungeon layout itself, and Gauntlet is a chance for individual creativity, testing different puzzles in each room, or as previously mentioned since WW, steadily expanding upon a puzzle THEME.
You should put an entire metroid game on a graph
hmmmm!
That's the best idea I've heard all day! And it's 23:35
I'm sure its been done. I think I remeber seeing a graph the developers of Super Metroid made. Then again, it wasn't Mark's graph...
All the 2D games! So we can see how much Fusion sucks compared to the rest....
Yes! Please do this with Super Metroid.
Maybe even along with Symphony of The Night as those were the two that help coin the Metroidvania term, and even get into what makes a Metroidvania style game tick.
Joseph Anderson in his souls borne critiques lists three types of level types in the series, 1.labyrinthian maze like areas, 2. Gimmick areas that have some strange different way of exploring the area And 3. Linear gauntlets that are combat focused. This sounds very familiar to the three types of Zelda dungeons you listed. Maybe these three types of level design can be seen in other games.
Good observation.
Interesting. Though, I honestly can't think of another game that has anything like Zelda's puzzle box dungeons. Would love to be told otherwise!
It was a long time ago that I played it, but doesn't Pandora's Tower follow the same 3 types of dungeons as Zelda? I remember the water tower being like a puzzle box dungeon. All of the towers always have a gauntlet element to them because the game is way more combat focused than Zelda, but they still feel like they fit in one of the 3 types.
tomb raider, prince of persia, Darksiders, God of War
Mark Brown The first God of War has a very good puzzlebox dungeon, Pandora's Temple, that lasts for the better half of the game. Sadly, the series got a lot less smarter with each sequel.
This game is easily one of my favorite Zeldas to play. Being able to do the dungeons in different orders definitely adds to the replayability.
I think this series is the most interesting on youtube, and also the polish is something rarely seen. kudos to you man
I wish Link Between Worlds had given me the option of starting with the hard mode without playing through the game once. I don't understand why some developers lock more difficult game modes behind a 2nd playthrough. I don't necessarily want to play the game a 2nd time after just finishing it, but I would have appreciated being able to choose the harder difficulty for the 1st playthrough.
I never really thought about it before, since I tend to play on the default difficulties for my first play through of games, but that's a pretty good point. What's more difficult than playing a game on hard? Playing a game blind on hard! Why not offer players that option?
@@NoNameC68 The problem is players blindly choosing the hardest difficulty setting, finding the game unplayable ( because they haven't mastered the skills needed ), then blaming this on the game ( possibly loudly and in public ). All difficulties unlocked from the start is the kind of thing that might work, if there weren't people whose ego is tied up in their alleged mastery. As is? Much better to gate off every difficulty setting not intended for use without a full play through worth of experience, until after a full play through.
Part of why the dungeons are shorter and simpler is because they wanted them to be bite sizes for being a portable game
And also because it seems like Nintendo is convinced that only small children play the 3DS.
I am not that deep in to Zelda yet and honestly I the lenght of the dungeons and the games as a whole was perfect fore me.
Would a compromise for the dungeon and overworld design be that the first few dungeons are linear giving a set of items that the player keeps then once those 3/4 dungeons are done some event happens that opens the world up to 4+ more dungeons to allow for that freedom of choice. This way the later dungeons can be more challenging than the earlier dungeons and can play with puzzles that require items that the player must have. Would love to hear your thoughts and love these videos!
Good one, mah boi. It's really a good idea.
So like BOTW with the Great Platau and the Runes?
Hahaha I wasn't even thinking about BOTW but yeah that fits my description pretty well.
It could still work with an expanded version of the same idea, probably more than just the tutorial area.
Dark Souls actually did this quite well. The game has two halves, and the halves are separated by acquiring a certain key item. All the areas in the first half, you can do in any order, and the same can be said of the second-half areas. But that means you still need to do the first half before the second half. What that means is that halfway through the game, it could be rebalanced because the designers could be certain that every player will have the same skills, experience, and equipment halfway through the game. So, the first half is a big, open go-anywhere-anytime game, then there's a mandatory checkpoint for all players, then second half just as big and open with a new difficulty curve, then the final mandatory checkpoint just before the final area/boss.
It can make the difficulty curve a bit wonky if you do the areas in an order that isn't implied, but at least the difficulty curve resets and recalibrates halfway through instead of just being flat and uninteresting the entire time.
As always, Mark, a masterful breakdown - as enjoyable to watch as it is informative. Yours is one of the few TH-cam names that I see as a brand of guaranteed quality, and considering that these videos are free to watch, thanks again.
What I learned from this episode is that I really like lock & key design :p
I also have to say that the thing that bothers me the most in ALBW is the dungeons ever only using the one or two items they require you to have, I like having to figure out what "key" is required between my many items for the "lock", but the wall merging thing actually provides a lot of interesting situations, and the game plays so smooth and is just "fun" to play so I really like it overall.
The Japanese name of this game is Kamigami no Triforce 2, so it is actually a direct sequel to a Link to the Past, not just an inspiration.
Theres an optional key in Twilight Princess isnt there? Hyrule Castle has a treasure chamber you have to get the extra key to access. I thought.
LITERALLY FOREVER
Great episode! I always feel like I learn a lot after watching these, which speaks to how well you inform your audience about game, mechanic, concept, and level design. Keep it up!
When will you do the CDI games?
when they stop haunting his dreams.
Did the first two even have dungeons?
He should do it on April 1 as an April fools joke.
Better be soon.
That’s not funny at all, and they have no dungeons, just memes.
Heyo Mark! I recently just found your channel in my recommended earlier today, and I'm glad that I had! Cannot wait for your next upload!
My favourite part of this series is watching Mark's theoretical model mature and evolve
Hi, excellent video, as always; but it surprised me a little bit that you didn't show how this dungeons compares with A Link to the Past dungeons, it's interesting to see how some dungeons that looks quite similar (and you may be expecting a remake of the original ALTTP counterparts) ended being completely different once you are playing them.
Also I think it's a good way to see how the dungeon design in Zelda has evolved since then. I was hesitant about getting ALBW because I don't like most of the ALTTP dungeons with their bullethell-ish focus and its "puzzles" of trying to push all the statues, light all the torches, or guess the correct lever; but after seeing some gameplay footage of ALBW dungeons, I decided to give it a shot and I loved it.
Lovely video, as per usual :) I love the content you create! Precise, structured and interesting. Keep it up, man :D
These are, quite literally, my exact thoughts on A Link Between Worlds. In fact, I'm pretty sure I might have written a fair bit about it in a comment on another one of your videos that aligns with everything mentioned in this one. Excellent analysis.
This series is turning into a big (and frankly great) masterclass on dongeon design in general. I would not be surprised this serves as inspiration in a lot of academic game design courses.
I would be *very* interested to see you try to take your analysis grid into another game to see how useful it is outside of Zelda. But I'm also really hype for the video which will conclude the series and tie this up into a coherent essay.
Very nice work.
These videos are super interesting, and honestly I think they got me back into Zelda games. A lot of games can get me immersed in a story, but only Zelda games make me feel like I'm on an adventure and these episodes really help to quantify that (Plus the Zelda 1 and BotW video)
Good stuff mark, keep it coming :)
As a zelda fan since I was 5, I absolutely love this series and I have followed it since te TP ep. Keep it up man, your vids are one of my favourites on youtube
Favorite series on youtube. Always a great day when the newest is released. Keep it up.
Your boss keys series is fantastic! Excited for the next entry :)
The graphs are amazing! These are really interesting to watch, always freeze frame and analyze them!!
All of your videos are amazing. You've swiftly become one of my favorite content creators.
Suggestion: Find a way to talk about Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. It's amazing and very original
Speaking of the overworld and the puzzles and sequencing we experience out there I wonder if you'll make a video or three about the way the different overworlds work. I like the feeling I get role playing as Link having a position in the community and also the personalities/back stories they have. The fact that events not just after dungeons but in the openworld itself can open up trading, items, upgrades, rewards, mini games, Easter eggs, lore, hints, in some cases secrets, code systems, etc. All these can be made into the overall richness of the Zelda experience. I like a break between dungeons especially when dark and damp to go be in the bright light doing the little tasks to strengthen our hero, I hope to see more of the overworld change in isolated areas after taking care of side quests, much like we see happened in Majora's mask after completing dungeons, changes in environment and NPC attitudes, as well as new opportunities and openings even if novel and minimally rewarding, the environment change gives a feeling of accomplishment.
Personally Mark I love the flowcharts. It was honestly a new take on dungeon design that I had never considered before. All of your vids are excellent but that nugget was fantastic as a way to look at my own dungeon design in future projects.
Your videos are just so good. I love them. Thanks again!
Thanks for doing an episode on this A Link Between Worlds is my favorite 2D Zelda game and I want more modern Zelda games that play like this
link between world is my first Zelda game and the only one I've played, so this is the first Boss Key I have a perspective on and feels more relatable. Great Video as usual
Hey bro love your videos always watch them as soon as they come out
I suscribed to your channel for boss keys and I must say, I don't regret the journey !
You got yourself a subscriber! Your channel is one of the best on youtube!
I'm loving both this series and Gamemaker's Toolkit! I also love all of the graphics, logos, and typography you do - the Boss Keys logo is just genius. Are you a graphic designer by profession?
Nope, this is my profession!
He isn't, his previous profession was in games journalism. The Boss Keys logo is just a very ingenious in it's simplicity
All of your videos are great
Mark never disappoints, every video is better than the previous one. Amazing.
rewatching this series, the most heartwarming part has been seeing your number of top-tier supporters skyrocket
As always, your channel and insights are the best ones!!!! thanks ;)
My first Zelda game was Ocarina of Time, and at the time I first played (I was about 7 or 8) I hadn't learned English yet. So I explored everything because I didn't know where I had to go, and it was one of the best feelings I've had when I was a kid. It was magical to accidentally discover that if I played Zelda's Lullaby at the graveyard, I'd open the Royal Family Tomb and things like this. I've loved every second of it, and I think that's the kind of magic that other games of the series were lacking. Still, I didn't play Breath of the Wild, so there's some hope.
Eduardo Bordinassi My thirst zelda game is a link between worlds and i started playing it and finished it this year (2017)
Maybe you should just never read anything and you can relive that "magic" of wandering around not knowing what to do.
Eduardo Bordinassi my first was wind waker, four swords and four swords adventures and got every Zelda game there on
Eduardo Bordinassi If you're looking for a good Zelda game, play windwaker. IMO my favorite game of all time. Way better on Wii U
Same, though my father finished the game when he gave it to us. By then, the whole world is pretty much accessible. One of the most fun i had when exploring is using the mask of truthon the gossip stones. We managed to learn some small bits (like how zelda is tomboy, or butterflies turn to fairies with the stick), not to mention attacking the stones in different ways (my favorite is bombing it)
Best series on TH-cam. Thanks for make. :D
Thankyou for covering this game! I just feel like jumping in and playing again!!
You're really locking down the terminology! Have you considered doing a general dungeon design series after this? The patterns you've developed could be extremely useful.
I love the puzzle box dungeons. I absolutely loved Water Temple the first time I played it.
Great video as always!
You speak of a new hypothetical dungeon structure, I would love to hear what idea you might have for a new style of dungeon beyond the 3 basic ones you've discussed (I assume your idea isn't just boss / enemy difficulty scaling with progression, even though it seems silly that that wasn't done to begin with in this game).
I did think to myself why they didn't they offer an empowered version of the item in the dungeon or give you a new skill or way of using that dungeons key item as a mid dungeon reward to offer more puzzle complexity and sense of reward.
man, your videos are great!
You really have to appreciate the polish in all his videos. Caps off to you Mark Brown, ole chap!
Adventure of Link blows up the dungeon structure with the Fairy spell and its ability to let you slip through locked doors without getting a key. It's an incredibly well executed risk-reward dynamic that is totally unique among Zelda games. One of my life goals is beating Zelda II without picking up a single key.
This might be my favorite Zelda game and helped inspire me to start making games again myself. I did it sometimes as a kid, and picked it up again 1 year afer playing it.
Watching this season after the fact is quite interesting to see how your perspective on the Zelda dungeons shifts over time
I do like the new dungeon-style-names a lot more then the old ones. Gauntlet and Lock&Key describe what's going on better in my opinion and sound a lot more objective than Find / Follow the Path. Plus the addition of Puzzle Box seems pretty acurate.
Also I really do enjoy the graphs.
Great video!
I might replay this zelda because of this video👏👏 subbed
I LOVE these videos. I watched like 10 already!
I love your work. Keep it up please.
Shout out to the Ice Ruins for being absolutely incomprehensible in the best possible way.
YES
Another fine video, thanks Mark. :)
I think the new Dugeon categorys work much better than the old ones.
My personal favourite category is the Puzzlebox, wich looking back is reflected in my favourite Zelda games.
Btw, you do run an AMAZING channel! Good work :3
Boss keys is my favorite series on youtube to rewatch! this is the 5th time ive seen this series!
FINALLY I WAS WAITING FOR THIS!!
Well made video and analysis. The strongest argument that makes the game amazing due to its non-linear design is replayability. For the first time ever in my experience with the series since the original game, I'm immediately encouraged to replay the game after my first completition. I wanted to jump into Hero Mode as soon as I was done because I had a more optimized route in my head to make my playthrough more managable, especially in a challenging setting like Hero Mode.
I love the dungeons in this so much I don’t know why but I always come back to this game
I'd agree with Liam Huber that these three archetypes of dungeon are
universal - many old games like Chip's Challenge and Doom have each of
their levels belong to either of those three structures (confuse the
player, test the player's raw skill, introduce a new mechanic to the
player). And I've read an interesting article somewhere that examined
how lock-and-key puzzles were introduced: setpiece puzzles (puzzle boxes
that are self-contained in one room) were introduced first, but weren't
all that fun on their own because they were "spent" once the player
figured out the solution; lock-and-key puzzles were introduced to make
the world feel more interconnected and force the player to think about
what to do next. The problem with pure lock and key puzzles is that you
can substitute proper level design with a mix of backtracking and
inventory management, which is almost no dev work at all but adds a lot
of gameplay time, so "puzzles" in many games has devolved into a series
of item fetch quests. I wouldn't really say the Souls series has actual
puzzle box dungeons, but I like how several puzzles can be solved by
observing areas from afar - for instance, Dark Souls 3 has a poison
swamp where you need to extinguish a bunch of lighthouses; you'd
normally wander around aimlessly for hours but it's possible to see the
location of all the lighthouses if you climb to a vantage point at the
edge of the area. Both DS1 and DS2 has bosses that can be killed from
outside their intended arena with some clever use of ranged weapons,
too.
Excellent video Mark!!! You're teasing your thoughts on BotW so much it's driving me crazy!!! Haha
I'm very curious to see if you'll cover triforce heroes!
Oh yeah! If you want more information on the graph system - and the assets to make your own for whatever reason - it's all here: www.patreon.com/posts/how-my-boss-key-13801754
Edit: Also! The graph for Turtle Rock is incorrect. Here is the actual version - imgur.com/a/oKYeO
Thanks for pinning the link, Mark! :D
With all the other comments having so many likes,
I'm glad it didn't become *A Link Between Comments.* ;p
1:30 iirc, wind temple can be done before the earth temple in ww.
Afifi96 Actually, although there's zero reason you shouldn't be able to, you're forced to do the Earth Temple first. I played through WW recently thinking the same thing and was shocked to find out I couldn't when I tried to do the Wind Temple first.
Thanks, Mark!! I really appreciate the work you put into this research. These graphs are a really nice tool, even if there are people too closed minded to see their value.
I think I read somewhere that you could do the Earth and Wind Temples in either order in the Japanese version, but are forced to do the Earth Temple first in the Western releases. I could be wrong; it's been a while.
This game should have been designed to give the permanent versions of items within their respective dungeons. You would need to rent a certain item in order to progress through a dungeon, and use that item to reach the permanent one. The permanent item is hidden, and a reward for exploration rather than a given. One could skip over it entirely and be forced to keep using the rental instead. This is actually what I _expected_ going into ALBW. Instead, you spend a ton of rupees to get permanent items.
I disagree. If we had to search for the permanent items, most of the incentive to collect rupees would be gone. This would make all those rupee chests absolutely frustrating to open. LBW is the only LOZ game I've played where getting rupees is actually fun!
I do wish they made the optional items in the dungeons hard to find though. It's always fun having to decide whether or not we want to go the simple path with faulty items, or take the difficult path to obtain good items. With LBW, most of the optional items are practically given to you. If you want to skip them, you have to make the conscious effort to ignore them... which is lame in my opinion.
Plus buying the items gave us incentive to find the Maiamais. Those item upgrades were pretty sweet.
A link between worlds is the first Zelda game I ever finished (even though I played every game since N64 before that). So since then I've gone back to a ton of Zelda games and fell in love with the series. I'm glad it revived my love for the franchise.
Thank you. LBW is one of my favorites, but so many people tend to compare it to LTTP that they can't enjoy it.
The gameplay and freedom makes it so much more enjoyable than LTTP.
I think a great way of adhering to ALBW's dungeon non-linearity is having certain items make rooms easier to clear (maybe having only the bow means you'll have to time the snapping of a moving rope with a chest where the hookshot can simply jank it towards you, some Zelda games already do this), but also putting in certain secret pathways and chamber secrets that can only be unlocked with certain other items, maybe creating other pathways which will then play a different jingle to show the player they've unlocked something better to aid them for thinking outside the box
One thing I love doing in Majora's Mask is getting the bow (or arrow types) from one dungeon, leaving and completing the next one. You can do them all in complete reverse order
A lot of these videos could just be summed up as, "Link's Awakening is my favorite and i dislike anything that deviates from that games dungeon design"
Link Between Worlds gives you so much more flexibility in how you progress through the game, and encourages more experimentation with the items since they're not limited in use to only the dungeon you retrieve them. This approach was so refreshing as the enter dungeon->find item->use item to finish the dungeon got pretty stale after being used in so many games
I disagree. The creator clearly likes lock-and-key and puzzle box dungeons and dislikes linear gauntlet ones, which reflects a large portion of Zelda fans. He praised every 2D Zelda and 3D ones like OoT and TP (the best games).
I also completely disagree that the dungeons in ALBW encourage any flexibility or experimentation. They really don't at all. You enter it, immediately are told what couple of items will be used, and then solve basic puzzles with just those items. There is no discovering new items that change up dungeons, and there is no incentive to explore different dungeon orders like OoT. Chests are also mostly meaningless as they only contain rupees that you won't need.
Still an amazing game for sure, but the dungeons were too simplistic for my tastes. Swamp palace was super disappointing compared to puzzle box like water temple, ice ruins was the only one that made me really think.
Twillight Princess' last dungeon had an optional key (unless he considers that 'a million year ago). it had an entire optional area just to get it.
Can I just say, that Patreon animation at the end is beautiful.
Great video... very interesting
I missed this series so much
Correction, there are 2 dungeons that have dungeon items that affect the game, desert palace and Ice palace. Ice palace has a few areas you cannot reach as a painting without getting the increased stamina bar.
apparently the scroll is optional.
This game is one of my favourite Zelda games
went into this so excited to hear ravios theme and There It Is!!
I would do an open-world option-full dungeon-filled game slightly differently: there would be several dungeons scattered around the world. There's key items in every dungeon, but they don't let you get all the way through the dungeon; they just allow you to progress through it (and every other dungeon). So, every dungeon has locks whose keys are scattered throughout every dungeon. There's staged mini-goals in each dungeon, so you don't need to just go all the way to the end. Instead, you go generally go in a dungeon to achieve your goals and gather new items before leaving to the open world again. Then, you head to another dungeon.
I felt the same way about Breath of the Wild's dungeon difficulty as you did about these, actually. I found that there was very little difficulty curve due to the fact that you could tackle the dungeons however you like. So even though they're puzzle box dungeons, they're fairly simple with the exception of Vah Nabooris. I wrote down all my thoughts on BotW in a big script but I'm sure you'll discuss that problem way better than I ever could in your video on it😅
Also, I've never commented before and I hope you see this, but your videos are an inspiration to me. I'm studying computer science now and hope to go into game design, and I've fallen in love with videos like yours and I'm itching to use your ideas in the future. I don't know if I'll ever make videos but I can say now they'd be very similar to yours, haha. Thanks for making these, and thanks for being an inspiration.
I'd generally agree with you about the dungeons in Breath of the Wild, but with the added thought that I felt they were not necessarily simple, but easy. When I played the game a second time I looked more closely at each Divine Beast's puzzles, and even though I found Vah Medoh and Vah Rudania to be the easiest and shortest of the four, I also found that their puzzles were generally more complex and had more moving parts than the puzzles in the other two. I feel like they were easy because I'd done them last and I was already very proficient in using the four runes and knowing how each one operated in special ways. If I had gone straight to Vah Medoh after meeting Impa I think it would have been a much longer and more difficult experience (although the Rito quest just sucked).
Because of this, I almost don't think it's a flaw that all of the dungeons are sort of on a flat difficulty curve. I feel like the difficulty is more in how familiar you are with using the runes to manipulate the game than in the actual dungeons themselves, which I think is true of a lot of things in Breath of the Wild (depending on how you feel, that could certainly be considered a flaw). I personally went and completed as many Shrines as I could before doing any dungeons because I'd heard I needed 13 hearts to get the Master Sword, and because I liked Shrines and wanted to see more of them. Because of that I was very well-versed in how to use them, and I had an easier time with the dungeons overall. I feel like if I'd gone to complete them without learning the lessons all those puzzle shrines had taught me about the runes and their different uses, I would have had a much harder time figuring out how to beat the dungeons.
That's an interesting take. I think it does depend on the order in which you do the dungeons. I did Vah Nabooris very early on, and I thought it was pretty challenging. Overall, I still think it's the best dungeon in terms of making you think about its architecture, because every time you spin any part of it, you change the overall layout of the central room. I felt like Medoh and Rudania were more simplistic in that regard. But, like I said, Medoh and Rudania were the last two I did and Nabooris was one of the first things I did in the game at all. Maybe I'll have to play through again to get a better understanding, as well.
I also don't really think my understanding of the runes played that big of a role in it, personally. Again, maybe I should play through again and pay more attention, but I didn't think the runes were really ingrained or used in the dungeon in a lot of unique ways. Not enough that you'd necessarily get better at using them, at least.
I also don't think it helps that you can't leave the dungeons after you enter, so they can't possibly create a situation like in Zelda 1 where you need to leave to get an item, so they need to make sure that you can do the dungeon even with the absolute minimum. This is certainly another case of personal preference, but I like when dungeons make use of equipment and items that you've gathered along the way, because it can sort of organically increase the complexity of a dungeon by upping the number of options you have for how you could solve the puzzle (potentially. Not that this always happens). But I would agree that that's a running theme of the game, and it works everywhere else. I just wish you had more freedom with entering/leaving the dungeons so you can figure out what you need, because there's usually only one way to complete the dungeon or it's puzzles anyway, so it would be cool to have to figure out what you needed from the overworld to get there.
It'd be cool if they made a set of dungeons that were linear so you could get all the items and then a set of free form dungeons so you could then do whatever you like. It would kinda be like Breath of The Wild where you get the runes before you can leave plateau.
About being a sequel to A Link to the Past with the same map and stuff: I thought it was great! If you don't know the first game, you get a new world. But if you do (like I did from years) ago, it feels a bit like coming home. Most of the stuff is new, but the feeling of getting dropped in a new world gets switched by the feeling of revisiting a former known place. Everything is a bit different, but you still know your way arround. Seeing many known things but discovering all the new secrets. Awesome!
LBW was fantastic, but I agree it was often quite easy. I actually challenged myself to play through the entire game only holding two items in my inventory at a time (the lantern and the current dungeon's item), killing myself before getting new items, and it was still no problem. In the main dungeons you literally never need to have more then one item, even for optional rewards, except for the final dungeon, which IIRC you could beat in stages, killing yourself periodically and coming back with the next item you need. That said, I loved all of the dungeons, and the bosses were all great. One thing I especially loved was that your willingness to spend rupees and look for treasure would modulate the game's difficulty. The Desert Palace becomes much easier when you upgrade the Sand Rod, for example.
Mark,
I've noticed that in several of your videos you've mentioned speedrunning, and you seem to be familiar with it. Have you considered making a video about games which are designed with speedrunning in mind? For example, you could cover games which incorporate individual level time trials, leaderboards, replays, dedicated speedrunning modes, or even just speedrunning integrated into the level design itself. Many indie games are developed with these in mind, and some bigger games do as well. In the speedrunning event Games Done Quick, some runs even have commentary from the developers that provide insight into the design. I think it would be a very interesting topic to make a video about.
Thanks for reading, and thanks for the wonderful video!
Running past that blue rupee at 3:30 HURTS me
You should analyse the Castle Rock level from Rayman Legends. I was blown away by how everything in the stage matched up with the music. Brilliant!
I remember getting stuck in the ice dungeon because I didn't figure out something between floors, but it felt really good I figured out I was missing something, but it wasn't that frustrating, and maybe for this era it was actually hard enough since my patience has been reduced hah
Eeee I have been waiting for this
So, it's impossible to have everything. If you have choices in the temple order, you destroy the difficulty. Otherwise, there is a simple path and it is bad. Or, you can have some kind of puzzle! That's bad too, people will complain because it is difficult (hey, i'm here) Temple items? If you need them for the temple only, that's bad. If you can use it in other temples, that's bad. No choice about the order.
So, i'm lucky that i don't want to create a game, because i will fuck up something somewhere.
Simple Solution: If you're gonna make the game Non-Linear then create a difficulty setting. Say for example you make 10 Dungeons then you can create 10 difficulty settings for each of those dungeons. When you start the difficulty setting for all dungeons would be at 1. Beat one dungeon and every other dungeon raises to two, with each increase raising the enemies HP/AP and also change the structure of each dungeon to be more complex and intricate. This would continue until you get to the final dungeon which would be set at the max difficulty level of 10. This way, you have complete freedom of whichever dungeon you want to beat whilst still having concise structure that raises both the difficulty and complexity.
I feel like the series shouldn't have so much dependency on Items. Instead they should create each Dungeon with a unique gimmick that could be tackled differently with whatever Item you have at hand, each one changing the way you approach a puzzle. These could be Items you find in the overworld or abilities you're given at the start.
With this structure replay-ability has already increased tenfold.
This videos make me feel guilty since i love Ocarina of Time HAHAHA
Well, that would be awesome! Also, terribly hard to create haha But worth it.
There's nothing wrong with liking OOT. IT's still a great game, it just prefers another dungeon design. Marc Brown loves the puzzlebox and lock and key dungeons. Some prefer a good old Gauntlet.
To be honest, If a game has 9 Dungeons, tha game should have roughly three of each esign. maybe you can amp up the Gauntlet density towards the end of the game in tune with stakes geting higher, focus shifting less and eventually storming up to the final destination and having that epic last stand against evil ... I am completetely derailed from what I wanted to say to begin with xD
Super APMs solutiuon is inpracticabe for most studios I believe, because you're basically designing 100 Dungeons. Even though they re somehwat "throwaway" as they're just iterations of each other, I guess the workload is around 50 Dungeons or something. The next problem is, before the game has aged quite a bid, it's hard to get outside help, because the people you know or find on the internet won't have your exact dungeon.
I propose a different solution: cluster some of the dungeons. So you often have to choose between 2-4 Dungeons to tackle and then have a roadblock or an event in the overworld, to prevent venturing further before you achieved all of them. Try to reduce the amounts of one dungeon bottlenecks (like the watertemple). And most importantly: Don't suggest an order, or if you have to reduce it to a minimum. (like when you have to enumerate the dungeons one has to visit, you can't have them not have any order unless you arrange them in a circle or something)
Favorite Zelda game ever! Like link to the past but even better.
Wind Waker is one of my favorite Zelda games. Not for the dungeons but because I get to sail around and feel like an adventuring pirate.
Hey Mark, Does this mean you're going to wrap up the series? Do your final breakdown video of the Zelda dungeons soon with all of what you learned from doing this ?
On a side note, I was really anticipating this episode because I've replayed ALBW recently and since I've followed your adventures in Hyrule from the episode about ALTTP I was really looking forward to know what you were thinking about it.
I'm not a "patron" but I really enjoy what your doing! Cheers
Two more Boss Keys episodes and then I can figure out what the heck I'm gonna do for the final wrap-up episode on GMTK
0:50 An interesting fact is that if you do Misery Mire first, you can use the Cane of Somaria to cut a section in Ice Palace short.
Early in the video you say that rupees are everywhere in the game (making rentals not that big of a cost) but towards the end you say that rupees don't feel like a consolation prize because they're so important. Having never played the game, this seems a bit contradictory. Could you elaborate?
I have played this game, and I understand what he means. Rupees are found everywhere, but more so later in the game. At the beginning of the game, you can only rent items, and the cost is pretty inexpensive. You get enough rupees to rent the ones you "need", several times over, but you can also rent items that you don't "need" such as the fire rod or bombs. Once you move into the Lorule section, you can buy the items for about 10x the cost to rent. Once bought you won't lose them when you die. "Why then would I want to buy them?" you ask. The Mother Maiamai side quest. First you have to open the cave she is in with a bomb, unprovided because it's just a side quest. Inside the cave is a giant pink squid, Mother Maiamai. She's lost her 100 babies and asks you to find them. For every 10 you bring back, she'll upgrade one of your items, but she can't upgrade rented items. (Find all 100 and she'll upgrade your spin attack). Rupees make good consolation prizes because you can then purchase your items to have them upgraded. You can also buy potions made from monster pieces that you collect. However, rupees can seem over-abundant if you don't plan on completing the game 100%. (Personally, I love the upgraded fire rod. Turns a little fireball into a giant flame-nado)
This is an old thread, but I thought I'd just chime in to say that when playing through the game I never actually rented any of the items. By the time I was ready to go to the next dungeon, I had naturally accumulated enough rupees to just buy and own the item require for that area. I guess if you really wanted to have multiple items early on to make certain puzzels/enemies easier, you could rent the items. Otherwise though, you could just buy them one at a time and it felt like a normal Zelda game, just with the items outside of the dungeons that they are used in rather than found inside.
I love every type of Zelda dungeon, I honestly do. Gauntlet, puzzlebox and lock & key (puzzlebox is my favorite). That being said, Link Between Worlds and Breath of the Wild have brilliant ideas, but because the freedom of choice they end up being underwhelming and easy. Let me use my favorite dungeon in Breath of the Wild as an example.
Vah Rudania (Lizard) is by far my favorite in the game, it was the 3rd dungeon I completed. The mechanics are great, you rotate the dungeon 90 degrees to solve puzzles and access new areas, brilliant idea and I loved it. The problem with it, is that it was the 3rd dungeon I completed and it still only took me 30 minutes and offered little challenge, because of the freedom of choice, who would know if I'm doing it first, 2nd 3rd or last. I find this to be the problem with open Zelda games. You're offered freedom, but that sacrifices challenge.
ALBW was definitely a good step in a new direction. I did feel like advertising the key item at the beginning took away a bit of the surprise of each labyrinth, but it was still fun to play.